Chevaline … Al-Hilli … Sylvain Mollier … murders …

  Update: Tuesday, October 30, 2012: The following is exclusive: The body of Saad Al-Hilli, 50, was embalmed and so was the body of his wife Iqbal, 47, and that of Mr. Al-Hilli’s septuagenarian mother-in-law, Suhaila Al-Allaf. The body of Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, 45, the fourth victim of the still unknown assassin of Wednesday, September […]


Update: Tuesday, October 30, 2012:

The following is exclusive:

The body of Saad Al-Hilli, 50, was embalmed and so was the body of his wife Iqbal, 47, and that of Mr. Al-Hilli’s septuagenarian mother-in-law, Suhaila Al-Allaf.

The body of Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, 45, the fourth victim of the still unknown assassin of Wednesday, September 5, who brutally gunned down the Iraqi-born British family on a lay-by near to the Upper Savoy village of Chevaline, was not embalmed. Chevaline is approximately 372 miles (600 kilometers) from Paris and 65 miles (60 kilometers) from the Swiss city Geneva.

French prosecutor Eric Maillaud was given the go-ahead for the embalmment by Mr. Al-Hilli’s brother, the 53-year-old Zaid Al-Hilli, who had received the request through the British embassy in Paris.

The embalming means that the investigators no longer need to carry out further examination of the bodies of the Al-Hilli couple and of Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf.  The three were buried on Sunday, October 21, in the Shia Muslim sector of the Brookwood Cemetery near Woking, Surrey.

The fact that the body of Sylvain Mollier was not embalmed means that the investigators could, if needed, carry out further examination on his remains. His burial took place without prior announcement one evening and the cemetery has not been named.

However, according to French law a body that is to leave French territory, even if it is to be taken just a mile across the French frontier, must be embalmed. The funeral parlor undertaking the transport of the defunct must obtain written permission for the embalming from the next of kin although embalming will be done even if such permission is not granted.  In Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf’s case her next of kin was her son Haydar Thaher al-Saffar but considered non compos mentis he was excluded.

In 1997 the embalming of the body of Princess Diana caused anger and consternation in Britain as it was thought that the French were trying to hide or cover up the fact that she was assassinated and did not die in a car accident. There was however not a word of protest in the British newspapers that Prince Charles had given permission for the embalming when as an ex-husband he was not her next of kin but so was her brother, Charles, 9th Earl Spencer. The Princess’s two sons, the princes William and Harry were still minors and therefore excluded as next of kin.

Apart from France’s law regarding the cross-border transport of bodies another two laws demand that a body must be embalmed. These are the Berlin Agreement on the Transport of Human Remains of 1937 and the Strasbourg Agreement on the Transfer of Corpses of 1973.

Embalming is accepted by the Christian religion and is tolerated by the Jewish religion but under certain circumstances only. It is forbidden by Islam. However, Islam does allow embalming should a body be transported over a long distance and across borders as in the case of the Al-Hilli couple and Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf.

If you want to read what I have already written about this gruesome and cruel slaying of a family on vacation and of a Frenchman you can do so   here   and here.    Comments have closed on those two links, but you can join our debate below.











Marilyn Z. Tomlins

1,135 Responses

10-25-2012 at 16:49:35

my test

10-25-2012 at 17:10:03

@ Marilyn- it works

@ Peter- I just don’t know about the gun. It seems to me there just hasn’t been a straight answer from the authorities. It seems to me that if we consider an 8 round magazine the 25 shots just makes sense. But then, i don’t know that a crime like this can ever really make sense.

10-25-2012 at 17:11:46

RVA524 – Great guns!

10-25-2012 at 17:13:37


Well Done:)

10-25-2012 at 17:16:25

@Keith – Re : Sloppy journalism

Keith, you wrote : I also think it would be a good idea to close this thread and start another one. Here is the latest example of sloppy journalism:

I can understand the sentiment, it only echoes what you have already written Marilyn, but he could at least have got his facts straight. The newspapers are certainly not asking any difficult questions are they?

Keith, I just read the Independent’s article. They really copied from us this time. They even likened the investigation with that of Diana’s, just as I’ve been doing all along.

10-25-2012 at 17:26:53

What I cannot understand from an experienced journalist is how can you write the following:

“Meanwhile, the “known knowns” of the Annecy mystery – those things which have been officially confirmed and those things which have been reliably reported and not officially denied – offer some insight into the last hours of the four victims.

Soon after 4pm on Wednesday 5 September, a British cyclist found a scene of unbelievable butchery on a remote lay-bay on a forest road above the village of Chevaline.”?
How can that be a “known known” when we “know” that the call to the emergency services was made at 3.48pm?

10-25-2012 at 17:34:16

Wow, what a cool place to feel welcome. I do need to look at the surroundings to see if I recognize friends from the previous thread!

10-25-2012 at 17:34:35

I know nothing about guns, so a question for the gun experts.

I’m assuming that all the police have to identify the make of gun is the spent bullet cartridges. I think we can fairly safely assume these to be 7.65x21mm parabellum, commonly associated with certain models of Luger pistol.

Is there any way, at this stage, they could have ruled out the possibility the gun used is a different model using the same calibre of ammunition?

Is it possible the gun used could have been, say, a Browning High Power in 7.65 format? This gun has a 13 round magazine which would mean only one change over. The killer could have saved one bullet in the gun ‘just in case’ or he could have removed one cartridge form the scene as a souvenir, or maybe one casing is lost in the undergrowth.

10-25-2012 at 18:02:16

@ Y

The police have neither officially confirmed the calibre used nor the type of gun from which the bullets were fired – all of this is based upon leaks by “sources close to the enquiry.” The calibre 7.65 x 21 doesn’t automatically imply a Swiss Luger-type ordnance pistol, as you rightly point out.

10-25-2012 at 18:06:22

@Keith : Re known knowns.

The expression ‘known knowns’ is now much in use in the British media as I’ve noticed. I wonder who coined it.

Journalists often ’round’ a number or an amount. This is probably which was done in this case. A round number, editors say, make neater copy. I like detail though, which you may do also. Especially when murder has been committed every minute counts.

10-25-2012 at 18:07:38

TO add to what Peter just said, all of the 9mm rounds sold in the gun shops for target practice here are stampe with “Luger” on the bottom. Its possible that someone with little gun knowledge took that to mean it was an actual Luger…

10-25-2012 at 18:08:08

Oui – some have successfully jumped over to this one. Big leap.

10-25-2012 at 18:10:11

M – My pleasure.

10-25-2012 at 18:16:06

another question for the gun experts:
it was originally said that the bodies could only be identified by dna as their faces were too damaged to be recognised. Does this information reflect on the type of gun/bullet used? Also somewhere was mentioned a Walther PP7.65, has this been discounted?
Going back over some old ground, I made the following post:

Re Zainab. BM says she had obvious severe head injuries and a lot of blood and that he moved her away from the front of the car
. Philippe D said: “She was lying down and motionless, but she didn’t looked bashed up. I could see no blood, one couldn’t see where she had been hurt. She was a few yards in front of the car”.
This is the complete opposite of BM’s interview.

While BM told police that he had seen a dark green four-wheel drive vehicle and a motorbike coming down the hill shortly before he arrived on the scene, the French hiker said was “totally sure” he had “heard nothing and passed nobody – not a car or a motorbike”.

Given the new timeline, would any vehicle have had to pass Philippe?

10-25-2012 at 18:20:32

A new thread, Thanks! I hope there will soon also be some new threads to follow in this case.

Will see if we have shaken off these sloppy journalists now, or if they are able to follow us here. Some of them still write that the RAF man made the call, though it has been known for over a month that it was Philippe D.

10-25-2012 at 18:24:01

…and there are real dates (and I don’t mean the fruit) on the comments! Thank You, Marilyn!

10-25-2012 at 18:42:39

@ Keith

I simply don’t believe that part about the victims’ faces being so mangled that they could only be identified by their DNA. I consider it far more likely that the police merely wanted to make absolutely sure that they had identified them correctly before officially confirming their identity.

The reason for my belief is that, whilst there are certain types of pistol ammunition that will cause massive ballistic trauma (certain types of hunting ammunition and ammunition created for SWAT teams and the like), these frangible or expanding bullets are likely to be deformed, deflected, or even broken into pieces by passing through the laminated glass of car windows. (Conversely, SWAT teams have special types of ammunition for that particular purpose, shooting through glass windows.) Moreover, such massive trauma to the face would imply that the victims had been shot in the back of the skull, with the expanded, “mushroomed” bullet then exiting through the face and leaving a nasty hole in its wake.

In short, I consider it more likely that the victims’ faces looked fairly unpleasant, perhaps with eyeballs hanging out and the like, but not wholly unrecognizable.

10-25-2012 at 18:46:08

By the way, I have started to wonder if his real name is Philippe Didierjean. I don’t know if someone has been able to trace that Savoyard?

10-25-2012 at 18:54:12

“The two women found dead in the back seat of the car are thought to have been his wife, Ikbal, and her mother. Swedish and Iraqi passports were found on the body of the older woman. French officials insist that her face and that of the male victim were too badly damaged to allow formal identification until DNA tests are performed on samples flown from Britain today.”

Written by the same journalist who wrote the article in the Independent today.

10-25-2012 at 19:19:39

@ Keith

As I have said, the Gendarmerie probably took a belts-and-braces approach to formally identifying the victims. Other than that, there are only two alternative explanations, in so far as I can see: 1. The victims did not receive *two and only two* rounds to the head, but *at least two*. Reports differ in that regard, but I have always thought it quite unlikely that SAH would *only* have been shot twice to the head, given that the killer shot him at almost point-blank range, firing through the front driver’s-side window. 2. The killer used some really unusual explosive ammunition (which wouldn’t work very well, if at all, if fired through bonded glass).

10-25-2012 at 19:19:46

@Lars: The dates.

Let’s see if it will be 2012/10/26 tomorrow. I hope it will be.

10-25-2012 at 19:26:32

@Peter @Keith

The procedure by EM is very logical. The faces could not be matched by photo’s on passports or other ID’s. Before assumption the names on the passport are the victims and making an announcement, the procedure is to be 100% sure of identification. Also close family members need to be located and notified first. SM from Ugine was the easiest of course as his partner CS returned to the police station with a photo. Did we have a copy already, or is that being worked on?

10-25-2012 at 19:27:05

@Keith & Peter : Re Mangled faces.

I’ve always understood that a bullet to the head disfigures the face.

I commented earlier here that when Ernest Hemingway committed suicide by shooting himself he blew his head off. He used a hunting rifle though.

BM said he thought it was a road accident. Road accident? With two females on the rear seat of the vehicle with their faces shot away! Surely there must also have been blood, brains and other matter on the inside of the windows? Also, if the faces of the two women had been shot away, then so surely was the face of Saad, as he also had 2 bullets in the head. Yet, SM, who also got shot in the head, was recognised from a photo his companion gave the gendarmes. Bizarre bizarre.

10-25-2012 at 19:27:47

@Lars: Re : Philippe.

I just took their words for it, Lars.

10-25-2012 at 19:29:06

@Lars: Re; Sloppy journalists.

They will follow us.

10-25-2012 at 19:36:40


Soon the Annecy Alps killings will be buried by the media as the Tour de France has the town as a start in next year’s stage on July 20, 2013.

“The stage is short enough to encourage attacking from the start and after the evenly graded ascent of Mont Revard at 78.5km, the race reaches the foot of the Semnoz at the village of Quintal, where the climb proper starts. “Revard is not super hard but it’s long,” says Prudhomme. “Team tactics will be central here.” What awaits the riders is 11km of steep climbing with barely any respite, a longer if slightly less brutal ascent than La Planche des Belles Filles.”

10-25-2012 at 19:42:16
10-25-2012 at 19:57:40

@ someone who can translate-
This is what google translate does for the article Lynda posted. If I understand correctly, the police had stopped the motorcyclist to tell him to leave the area and now are looking for him??

Investigators are still looking for a motorcycle seen that day. The driver was not far from where the killing when he was arrested by agents of the ONF (National Forest). The latter asked him to leave the area because the forest is home to the Combe d’Ire partly a nature reserve, where traffic is prohibited.

English or a cyclist would have crossed this same bike lowest moments later, before discovering the bodies of victims. The driver is he the murderer? Only certainty biker went near the vehicle of Al-Hilli in the slot of the drama. Despite calls for testimony , it still has not appeared.

10-25-2012 at 20:14:00

@ rva524

I had just picked up on the same thing – that, a motorcycle and a green 4×4 (as used by the National Forestry Service) would account quite neatly for the motorcycle and the green 4×4 that WBM saw speeding away from the scene of the crime. However, it leaves the killer unaccounted-for – and perhaps puts him into that white Peugeot 206/306 seen speeding away from the scene of the crime by another witness.

10-25-2012 at 20:39:02


National Forest Office (ONF) stopped the motorbike because it’s forbidden in parts of Combe d’Ire to drive motorbikes cause it’s a natural reserve.

They let him go – now everybody’s looking for him. He’s not come forward yet.

In my opinion, surely the green 4×4 followed by the motobike Brett Martin saw.

Fits well enogh for me.

Therefore not the killer, neither the 4×4 nor the motorbike.

10-25-2012 at 20:45:19

@Lynda Thanks!

This article appears to be quite accurate although not complete. Also confirms an earlier article, one of the pictures taken by Mrs. Al-Allaf (74)

On photographs taken in the hamlet Arnand near Chevaline, we see members of the Al-Hilli ask in turn , there in front of a house with flowers, further along a stream. The family seems relaxed. On one of the pictures, Saad Al-Hilli smiled, his daughter perched on his shoulders.

Life Sylvain Mollier, the French cyclist shot with the Al-Hilli was well dissected. The search of his home and the family lived painfully gave nothing. To this day, it remains for the prosecutor to Annecy “collateral victim” of this drama.

On the trail of a possible “gunman”, the police have also questioned psychiatric hospitals visited gun clubs, hunting associations. They also conducted overlap with business robberies or drugs. Again, to no avail.

Coordination between UK and France remains difficult …

10-25-2012 at 20:51:41

further in the article:

It’s says (much has been said) that there’s even a picture of Saad al-Hilli, smiling with his daughter on his shoulder, among the Arnand photos.

Indicating that even Saad al-Hilli was unaware of the fate that awaited them.

10-25-2012 at 21:17:00

And the gendarmes have visited the gun clubs when they investigated the “nutter” lead.

10-25-2012 at 21:20:55

So this is where you have all been hiding!

Re the article posted by Lynda, I too need a better translation than Google. It’s killing the French language.

So we can eliminate the 4×4 and the motorbike. However the 4 x4 ONF driver is a witness and EM must have had his statement. This would place the exact position of the BMW, SM and BM when he passed them.

10-25-2012 at 21:28:08

The francetvinfo:

Lynda, thanks for finding this one for us.

What’s new in the article for me: Saad safeguarded docs on an American safeguarding site; 60 gendarmes are on the case; for the gendarmes, SM still remains a victim; the motorbike seen by two builders is still unaccounted for; BM also reported having seen the motorbike.

My money is on the person on the motorbike being the killer. And, as I did at first, I think it’s a nutter. Not a local nutter because he would have been smoked out because in the article it says that the investigators have verified with all mental institutions, psychiatrists in the region etc.

I also again think that there is a link between the Chevaline killing and that of Baligant: a shooting on a road; children in both the cars; children not harmed. Yes, Zainab was shot and beaten over the head, but it was because she must have resisted the killer.

10-25-2012 at 21:32:04

@Oui : Re: Tour de France in Annecy.

I was today working on a short article for my site but did not finish it.

The Tour starts in Corsica on June 29 and ends in Paris on July 21. It is going to be tough but picturesque.

Will finish my article tomorrow. Maybe.

10-25-2012 at 21:33:28

Mark – Where’s Mark? He’s not here yet. And Shushu too’s not here yet.

10-25-2012 at 21:34:01

in general:

I consider this article (if not partly invented) breaking news!

@ Marilyn:

I think I have not read thoroughly enough:

“the motorbike seen by two builders” – motorbike seen by builders?

10-25-2012 at 21:34:03

Alexander : killer was a nut case — maybe. Or maybe not.

10-25-2012 at 21:37:38

@ Marilyn re: “Mark – Where’s Mark?”

I’d say also: “Max – Where’s Max?”

Max, put the controller away!

You can continue testing Medal of Honour when this case is solved!

10-25-2012 at 21:44:37

From the article cited above: “La vie de Sylvain Mollier, le cycliste français abattu avec la famille Al-Hilli, a été ainsi disséquée. La perquisition menée à son domicile et vécue douloureusement par la famille n’a rien donné. A ce jour, il reste pour le procureur d’Annecy “la victime collatérale” de ce drame.”

They do give up easy these french gendarmes, and seem to lack imagination.

10-25-2012 at 21:47:48

Thank you very much for the article, Lynda!

But, like Oui said, the article is not complete.

It’s missing this:

“On Marilyn Z. Tomlins’ site, there are an additional 30 persons working round the clock shifts to solve this crime in cyberspace.”

10-25-2012 at 21:53:36

@Alexander – No. You read thoroughly. I did not.

It was this: Les enquêteurs sont toujours à la recherche d’une moto aperçue ce jour-là. Le conducteur roulait non loin du lieu de la tuerie quand il a été interpellé par des agents de l’ONF (Office national des forêts). Ces derniers lui ont demandé de quitter la zone car la forêt de la Combe d’Ire abrite en partie une réserve naturelle, où la circulation est interdite.

Or un cycliste anglais aurait croisé cette même moto plus bas, quelques instants plus tard, avant de découvrir les corps des victimes. Le pilote est-il l’assassin ? Seule certitude, ce motard est passé à proximité du véhicule des Al-Hilli dans le créneau horaire du drame. En dépit des appels à témoins, il ne s’est toujours pas manifesté.

It were men from the forestry office who saw the motorcyclist, stopped him and asked him to leave the area. BM also saw him.

I wonder if the forestry men saw the motorcyclist’s face and could describe him.

Only other person there at the time of the killing: seems to be the killer.

10-25-2012 at 21:55:21

@Alexander : Max was here, as follows:

Submitted on 2012/10/25 at 17:13

Well Done:)

10-25-2012 at 21:56:10

@Alexander: another 30 working on the case.

Ha ha!

10-25-2012 at 21:57:08

I have noticed that one of our fellow blogs have found signatures of the RAF man. I wrote earlier that you can “tweak” his name in so many ways that it is difficult to find sources regarding him.

His signing documents with W. Brett, indicates that Brett is one of his surnames and not a given name.

I must say that when I first heard the name Brett Martin, I personally thought that Brett was his given name.

10-25-2012 at 21:59:27

With regard to the understanding between the two languages, the very early report in the Daily Mail says that the 4×4 and motorbike passed BM on the way up ! Sylvie L says she saw a Peugeot speeding TOWARDS the scene, then another newspaper away from.

Even the statement from the farmers wife Mme Jeanin, could read that the ‘moto’ passed from time to time, or wasn’t in a hurry ! A great deal depends on the wording.

The most recent reports of the motorcycle were around 4pm going TOWARDS the scene, but could this be on the approach from Jarsy, Pont de Leyat ?

I would bet that Maillauds team have already questioned the killer/or someone who knows what happened. Forestry men and vehicles can pass without creating suspicion. SM could well have been dealing in drugs, maybe even Claire S knew and that was why she was worried when he didn’t return home on time.

I am convinced there will be a simple solution to this and local, the parking uphill after Faverges, Oui also has a red bar showing the end of authorised driving, is accessed from Martinet/La Combe parking by a ‘red route’, I think Maillaud needs to look at the Forestry employees again and closer.

10-25-2012 at 22:00:37

@ Marilyn:

If one uses a moto cross style helmet like I do one can see more features than under a race style helmet.

Usually you wouldn’t wear a race style helmet when riding in the woods.

When I pass by people who know me wearing my cross helmet I usually don’t greet them knowing the won’t greet me back not recognizing me.

Anyway, not recognizing a person and memorizing some features are two different things.

10-25-2012 at 22:05:18

@Lars, a while back I pointed out the posts on a French website after a press article, the name was CBrett (Captain Brett maybe) who said Mollier was the target and the AH’s inconvenient witnesses.

10-25-2012 at 22:05:27


Yes, some reports give the motorbike as driving towards the lay-by while others say it was driving from it. It’s also been reported as having been seen several times that day driving around the area. All very confusing.

10-25-2012 at 22:06:26

@Lars: BM’s signature.

Did they say where they’d found his signature?

10-25-2012 at 22:11:31

PHotos of the jogging and cycling BM. You may not have seen these from Daily Mail

10-25-2012 at 22:15:43

@AC … lol (MoHW on pc … I’m pants … perhaps going for the more relaxing 360 version Multiplayer wise that is)

@Lynda .. Good find. I like the article. Esp. the 4×4/Motorbike reference

So the 4×4 is accounted for and the motorbike is ALSO accounted for! As in THEy EXIST, and BM is telling the ‘truth’

Only problem. The motorbike guy has since disappeared:)

But the remains a problem, more actually:

1. BM’s statement place the 4×4 (good guys) AND the motorbike between HIM and Martinet. Iirc BM said he saw the 4×4 and motorbike ‘halfwayish’ coming down. Stranger even is that BM saw the 4×4 first and then later the motorbike.

Now if the 4×4 directed the motorbike away, WHY was the motorbiker LATER??

Anyway, the timeline is such that it difficult to put the motorbike at the killing.

But I would like to know were exactly the 4×4 came from, and were they spoke to the motorbiker??

It sure was ‘busy’ on that 3 km strech to Martinet. No less than 5 ‘elements’ (AH, SM, 4×4, motorbike and BM) were there in a timespace of less than 12 minutes

I don’t even get that the 4×4 didn’t see SM??? SM was only a few minutes AHEAD of BM on that same route were the 4×4 came down. HOW ON EARTH did the 4×4 miss SM???

There has to be a damn good explanation for this. I just don’t get this????

10-25-2012 at 22:21:10

No more conspiracies for me, I am back to where I started, a schizophrenic killer. Probably killed before and will kill again unless caught. I know the French don’t like this, but professional profiling might be the next step. Mass murders and spree killers normally keep going until killed or commit suicide. So this guy is a serial killer. Serial killers all have a profile, something that is unique to them that is evident in all the crimes they commit.

The ONF driver can prove BM is innocent, i.e where he passed him on the road.

State sponsored killing or Mossad is out, never in as far as I am concerned i.e. there would be a hit team and escape vehicles (oh and it would be professional!).

SM being the target is out, killer took too many risks and killed 4 others. And came prepared for a massacre!

Maybe the same man that killed XB, but need to know the similarities better. So far; old weapon, head shots, family in car with young children, escape route, close contact with victims.

By the way on the XB killing there was talk of another shooting with a similar weapon sometime in July. Can’t find much more on this. Maybe a search of French newspapers might uncover this crime.

10-25-2012 at 22:27:37


No, it is here though: ; # 1625

But it is from his Silver Fern company so it seems very genuine, it seems like a company report.


Regarding your discussion of who met whom: when Eric Maillaud was asked this question, he answered, very irritated : “yes, and some may have seen people from Mars…” Conclusion: hard to separate right from wrong.

10-25-2012 at 22:31:04

@Pete R.

I’m also thinnking about the ‘nutter’

Because for me, all other option are ‘exhausted’:)

Weird details in this case are the ‘old’ gun, the ‘fired every bullet’ (the 3×8+1=25 reference), the fact that Zainab was beaten and BM (within 2 minutes) was unharmed

For me … now … a ‘nutter’ hitting the ‘jackpot’ with so much prey, using up all his ammo, topping it off with 4×2=1 clip headshots. And escaping simply because he ran out of ammo.

If it weren’t for the timeline, I’d say the motorbiker (now disappered) makes a good Killer X

10-25-2012 at 22:32:20

I don’t know how it is there, but here, whenever police stop a vehicle, there is a video. In some jurisdictions the video comes from the dash cam, on others it actually is on the police officer. If my understanding of Lynda’s article is correct, we now know that the police actually encountered the motorbike rider. That was new news, at least to me. I wonder if they have a record of the tag and maybe a video.

Something smells fishy about that whole thing. Is my understanding correct that the police stopped him, supposedly to tell him he needs to leave the area because there has been a murder?

10-25-2012 at 22:33:11

Un homme tente de se suicider en pleine ville Ugine – July 2012

What happened to this man? Video

10-25-2012 at 22:34:42

Bed … Until tomorrow …

10-25-2012 at 22:40:58

@ Marylin who answered Lynda regarding motorbikes:

As I understood it, there were at least two motorbikes:

1.) Motorbike 1 is a heavy bike not adapted to off-road, the driver had two large bags with him, seemed to be not familiar with the surroudings and was seen going in direction *to* the murder scene.

2.) Motorbike 2 was stopped by ONF cause it’s not allowed to drive in parts of Combe d’Ire. Probably a moto cross bike.

To distinguish the first from the second, one needs to asks the ONF which type of bike they stopped.

Motorbike 2 might be the killer’s.

3.) Motorbike 3 might belong to “Melvin (15), the gentle giant”, but like I asked before, is he invented or for real?

And now the price question: which of the three motorbikes has been seen lettings the cow herd pass (driver appeared cool).

I tend to say motorbike 1.) or 3.)

@ Max:

The motorbike followed the ONF 4×4 because it was being accompanied out of the woods.

Following an official car means you can not easily escape that car because it’s blocking your escape direction.

That’s why accompanying works in that order and not the other way around with the vehicle to be accompanied before the accompanying vehicle.

10-25-2012 at 22:41:32

@marilyn – I am here and thanks for the new thread.

I am having a thinking break / pondering whether SM could have been mistaken for BM as per my post on the old thread. And wondering when the next leak / snippet will be thrown our way.

Interesting to read that French investigators – UK police relationship is still difficult. As Marilyn explained so well the two clearly work very differently and I expect the French are wary of sharing too much as they fear it will end up in the media.

For those still favouring the ‘nutter’ explanation:

– don’t you think the lay-by was an unlikely place for a nutter to lie in wait for a passing family?

– do you think the Al-Hilli’s presence there was random?

– why do you think SAH travelled to the region?

– could a lone nutter really act as marksman, lookout and getway so successfully?

10-25-2012 at 23:11:57

@ Mark:

As for I always favored the “lone gun nut” theory, I’d like to answer:

– Yes, it was.

Anyway, it is remote and he was planning on gun training when Sylvain Mollier ran into him.

– Yes, absolutely.

– It’s a tourist beauty spot.

– Yes, it happened too in the Xavier Baliant case.

10-25-2012 at 23:55:43


I formerly worked for a company that tried to market helmet cams to UK police forces. After good initial take up the budget run out and the scheme was scrapped. I am not sure what they do in France, but I doubt if they are used. By the way in the UK you can now get away with murder if the police don’t caution you correctly. UK forces did not like using helmet cams as it could be used as evidence against them.

Part of the thrill for this psycho is the risk, meeting this challenge and escaping.
SAH was on a random sightseeing, photo opportunity day out . The same as I do on every holiday with the kids.
SAH was there on family business, to sort out his father’s will and inheritance. Also to take the family on holiday to a region that they had been to and enjoyed in the the past.
Lone psycho, definitely, look up a few, some go on for years, some are never caught, some taunt the police with ‘clues’.

The word nutter makes this guy sound stupid, this is something he is not. I think this guy is highly intelligent, calm, calculating and extremely meticulous, and very, very insane.

10-26-2012 at 00:10:51

***Test post to see if the date stamp changes*****

***It is 0:09 on the 26/10/12******

****But will Marilyn’s site notice it*******

****Now it is even 0:10******

****I am going to hit “Submit comment”******


10-26-2012 at 00:24:48

Ask yourselves this question:

Why did the killer go up to Martinet with a Luger and 25 rounds?

Was it to:

1) Kill SM?
2) Kill BM?
3) Kill SAH and family?
4) Kill SM and SAH?
5) Shoot rabbits?
6) Kill whoever came along?
7) Was not sure?

Only two work for me.

10-26-2012 at 00:27:56

@Alexander Cartier

Not in the UK then?

It didn’t.

10-26-2012 at 00:44:30

@ Pete.R.:

No, no, not in the UK! Since when was the UK 100 miles from Chevaline:)

My money is on

5.) and


10-26-2012 at 01:01:05

Tentatively waiting for 00:01 UK time to say my money’s on 6 & 7.

We could always time-stamp our messages.

00:01 26/10/12

10-26-2012 at 01:34:13

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 10.25.12
“@Keith & Peter : Re Mangled faces.
I’ve always understood that a bullet to the head disfigures the face.”

“I commented earlier here that when Ernest Hemingway committed suicide by shooting himself he blew his head off. He used a hunting rifle though.”

“BM said he thought it was a road accident. Road accident? With two females on the rear seat of the vehicle with their faces shot away! Surely there must also have been blood, brains and other matter on the inside of the windows? Also, if the faces of the two women had been shot away, then so surely was the face of Saad, as he also had 2 bullets in the head. Yet, SM, who also got shot in the head, was recognised from a photo his companion gave the gendarmes. Bizarre bizarre.”

It’s unpredicatable about what damage headshots cause, especially in this where we don’t know exact ammo, shooting through glass, maybe a silencer. Sometimes with head shots there is no exit wound. But from what’s seen of the BMW there is a remarkable lack of blood inside.

Hemingway used a shotgun, if I recall.

@ Lars 10.25.12 “@Marilyn
No, it is here though: ; # 1625
But it is from his Silver Fern company so it seems very genuine, it seems like a company report.”

At CM there is big dispute over BM’s signatures on various years of legal financial reports. There are either 1, 2 or 4 different signatures.

They mention that the name “William Martin” was also the name given to the corpse, used to deliver convincing documents by sub to the Nazis in WWII.

The idea is that OUR William Brett Martin, though alive and real, may be the latest in a line of a fictional identity used by the agencies – an inside joke.

10-26-2012 at 02:16:40

“Did they say where they’d found his signature?” (him being WBM)
I think from copies of annual accounts filed at Companies House (as per UK company law and available for a small fee)

“here, whenever police stop a vehicle, there is a video.”
I think ONF are more Park Ranger/forester than actual police!

@Keith – thanks for highlighting the conflict in WMB’s & PhilippeD’s evidence re Zainab’s injuries. Skull fractures are possible without breaking the skin so either could be correct.

Posted on 2012/10/26 @ 01:15 (UK time)

10-26-2012 at 02:53:12

@Marilyn thank you for searching for me and congratulation for the new thread i’m glad that you made one and it took me almost an hour to read all those comments somebody was saying about BM signature i think i saw his name somewhere and it was –William Brett Martin– @ Mark i do agree with you this is not a job of a nutter is very professional @ all if you are saying that the faces were not recognisable then how come that BM taught that the cyclist was resting ?? he could very well see his face it is only after looking inside the car he is saying it was a murder ( csi ) and the picture that Marilyn showed us from BM he looks very fit but when you see him in his interview you think is just an ordinary man reaching his retirement he is a very good actor 1.52am 26/10/12

10-26-2012 at 06:15:41

@ Alexander : try to go and sit on a normal way on a stool while you picture yourself.

10-26-2012 at 07:46:55

BBC video of parking Martinet, small portion seen driving up the road and close-up of sign with tourist info and map of the region. This was my original source for location of parking. Watch video in this BBC article.

The BBC’s Jon Sopel has been allowed up to the scene of the shootings for the first time

10-26-2012 at 07:59:48

One day the multicultural society will help us with this. Do you think it is one of us? Who else??

Aan Hilli zie ik niks mis. Hij ging niet eens naar de hoeren. His auto was 8 years old and his caravan yet older.

He let his daughter skip school and she sat next to him. It was not allowed. Paper Moon!!

Thanks the lord for this coat of many colours.

10-26-2012 at 08:39:14

Ah-ha! The site noticed the clock ticking over. Yippee!

Pete-R’s list of reasons why the shooter was on the lay-by. Last night I was sure it was #6, this morning I am yet again not sure at all.

@Shushu and @Mark – good you found us.

@Jan – nice to see you here too.

@Bleb – nice to see you here too.

10-26-2012 at 08:40:34

@Jan : Re : Do you think it is one of us? Who else?

No, Jan, I do not think it was one of us. If it were, that person would be correcting us all the time and this is not happening.

10-26-2012 at 08:43:07

@Oui: Re: Watch video in this BBC article.

Just did, Oui. I want to go there … but this may sound crazy – I’m scared because the killer may still go up there for the memory.

10-26-2012 at 08:46:24

Rambo BM.

Shushu pointed out that on the photos the Daily Mail ran of BM in his working-out and cycling gear we can see that he is a real Rambo. (I gave the url previously.)

So he is, so he need not have dragged SM out of the car’s way. He could have picked him up easily, I’m sure.

10-26-2012 at 08:59:03

But there is one other song like ‘Wenn alle untreu werden’- SS hymn. Me I think it is approtiate to look and listen.

It is just a lovely and powerful song.!!

10-26-2012 at 09:20:24

@Bleb : Re; BM’s signature:

NR gave this: No, it is here though: ; # 1625
But it is from his Silver Fern company so it seems very genuine, it seems like a company report.”

10-26-2012 at 09:22:32

Pete R wrote : Tentatively waiting for 00:01 UK time to say my money’s on 6 & 7.

We could always time-stamp our messages.

00:01 26/10/12

Pete R, I see the date and time on admin and yes, the time on that comment of yours is exactly that.

10-26-2012 at 09:31:15


Sorry 🙁 , but the dates have probably only changed on your adminstrator sheet. Mine is still 10.25.12.
Anyone with technical knowledge about blogs that could help?

10-26-2012 at 09:33:03

@ Marilyn. To even move a motionless body : alone you cannot make it 4 meters. With two you can move the body 200 meters with very much struggling.

They did it here (Bende van Nijvel – 28 dead+) It is gonna celabrate its Birthday

10-26-2012 at 09:57:48

@Lars : Re: Date didn’t change.

ON NO! if someone can advise?

10-26-2012 at 10:36:48

@ Jan:

I did not picture myself.

I did not know being photographed when I sat on that chair.

10-26-2012 at 10:58:34

Personal, another twist? Briefly looking back at Brett Martin …

The Silver Fern, William Brett Martin and In’t Security Solutions

The image of the silver fern is widely representative of New Zealand and New Zealanders. It is an image to which all New Zealanders relate and is a powerful and emotional symbol of inspiration at times when it matters. The symbol comes from the leaf of the New Zealand fern – Cyathea Dealbata (Ponga is the Maori name). The leaves are dark green on the upper side and silver underneath.

It has played an inspirational role for the military – New Zealand Army contingents who saw overseas service in the South African war of 1899-1902 are understood to have worn fern leaf badges.

New Zealand rally coureur Brett Martin (first name Brett)
Theresa Valerie Martin listed as the other director of Silver Fern Ltd. – Croydon, Surrey.


Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited has a link with David John Miller and common address with the following company: International Security. The Internet info about BM’s company Silver Fern Ltd. is being erased step by step.

International Security and Protection Limited [Check the status: Active with proposal to strike off]

Company Status
Active – Proposal to Strike off

Registration Date: 01/10/2010

Registration Number: 07394352
Type: Private Limited Company

Registered Address

The experience of our operatives derive from backgrounds of elite units within the British Armed Forces (Including SAS, Parachute Regiment, Royal Military Police & Royal Marines) French Foreign Legion Civilian police and security services, this experience combined with commercial security knowledge, understanding and extensive practice has enabled us to focus and adapt to any given situation and to provide a solution quickly and effectively to security issues across the spectrum.

Our clients include Middle Eastern royal families, overseas government ministers, high-profile international business executives, Professional sport Men & Women entertainment celebrities and news media individuals.
No contract is too large or small for us to handle. Whether you require a Close Protection Team for a business visit to a high-risk hostile environment, or Residential Security to look after your family & assets while away conducting Business or Pleasure International Security & Protection Ltd can provide the tailor-made service you need.

@M Worthwhile not to forget about William Brett Martin?

As about the pose during the BBC interview, remember listed in business profile, well trained in Communications and stress management. Is combination possible of killer X escaping with weapon and BM as accomplice and forensics cleaner? He could truly have been shocked when he arrived at the (premeditated) murder scene and its devastation. He needed time to collect his senses and was well prepared for the police interview in Annecy and later the one time BBC interview. Staged? Problem is, he was immediately hailed as a hero …


Brett Martin LinkedIn Account

Consultant B787 PSIP/SFI Boeing UK Training and Flight Services
Consultant CRMI(G), MCCI, B737 SFI bij Alpha Aviation Group
Human Factors and Leadership course design and training Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited
Training Captain British Airways
Air Defence Weaponeering Instructor (pilot) Royal Air Force (1978-1989)

Vortex Aviation Solutions – Training Course Name: Human Factors In Aviation and Crew Resource Management (CRM) [pdf]


The Queen’s Birthday Honours

Friday, 15 June, 2001, 23:26 GMT 00:26 UK MBEs I – M

Orders and Decorations

David John Miller. For services to the community in Orwell, Cambridgeshire. (Nr Royston, Hertfordshire)


An alternative MBE could be meant for: Royal Signals L/Cpl David John Miller [ID theft?]

Take a print screen to preserve the websites!

10-26-2012 at 11:37:03

@ All – The Triathlon photos of Brett Martin were taken in 2006. The man we see now doesn’t look anywhere near as fit.

@ Oui – Registered Addresses are often that of the Accountant, like ShTech (Al-Hilli), I have an accountant acquaintance who has 16 companies registered at his address.

10-26-2012 at 11:38:50

A bit more, see address and business info:

Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited

Company Status

Registration Date: 14/02/2006

Registration Number: 05708870
Type: Private Limited Company

Registered Address

Business Activities
SIC classification: 74909 – Other professional, scientific and technical activities not elsewhere classified

10-26-2012 at 12:45:04

@mad hatter with a rascist twist

Out on my bike this morning I though about the “nutter theory”:

What if the reason, that Mr. al-Hilli moved his family a couple of hundred meters to a new camping site after only a couple of days, was that he was constantly harassed, by this dutch or english tourist, also staying at the camp. This man used rascist words of abuse, seeing that Mr. al-Hilli was arabic/semitic. Perhaps he also thought that the al-Hillis got a better spot at the camping, had a nicer car, bigger caravan, sweeter wife and kids.

Perhaps this man always carried a gun, suffering from persecution mania, and thought he was persecuted by the government, authorities, muslims and Google.

Perhaps they bumped into each other again that afternoon in Doussard and the killer managed somehow to follow after the family along the Route Forestiere to the parking place, and there he shot them in his rascist way.

10-26-2012 at 12:49:29

I cannot for the life of me figure out how it has taken the investigators so long to get to establish that the dark coloured 4×4 was, in fact, a National Park patrol vehicle and identify and interview the drivers. Even more so as it now appears that the crew encountered and cautioned one of the mystery motorcyclists !

Surely one of the first steps for the investigators would have been to contact the National Park management, establish which personnel were on vehicle patrol on the day of the murders and interview them without delay to establish where they were and what they saw. Yet only now are we getting any sense that this happened. Quite staggering if a patrol vehicle did pass the scene within minutes of the murders !

10-26-2012 at 12:51:26

@ Marilyn, no doubt Park Rangers asked the motorcyclist to leave the area, this surely must mean that he was already on a route beyond the allowed circulation ?

“Les enquêteurs sont toujours à la recherche d’une moto aperçue ce jour-là. Le conducteur roulait non loin du lieu de la tuerie quand il a été interpellé par des agents de l’ONF (Office national des forêts). Ces derniers lui ont demandé de quitter la zone car la forêt de la Combe d’Ire abrite en partie une réserve naturelle, où la circulation est interdite.”

post dated: 26/10/12 France, 12:51

10-26-2012 at 12:53:57

@Lars – **What if the reason, that Mr. al-Hilli moved his family a couple of hundred meters to a new camping site after only a couple of days, was that he was constantly harassed, by this dutch or english tourist, also staying at the camp.**

It was reported in an early Times (pretty reputable British newspaper) article that the Al-Hilli’s moved campsite following (or due to) an argument with neighbouring campers over SAH parking his BMW on their pitch. I have not seen this picked up elsewhere and the Times is subscription only so does not come up on Google.

10-26-2012 at 13:13:06

The motorcyclist stopped by the rangers, I doubt they noted the registration number, but surely they would have noted if it was a 74 plate ? Large cylinder ?
French speaker ?

Eventhough at the time they were unaware of the events that had taken place or were about to take place. Had they just crossed paths, understandable, to tell someone to leave the area, different matter.

Surely the biker must have already been ‘off piste’ to warrant attention, where was he, on an adjacent track ? If he was told to follow them back down the Route Forestiere, both vehicles passing BM at one point, then the Forestry Vehicle may never have gone as far up as the Martinet.

10-26-2012 at 13:15:00

@ Mark, the Europa campsite apparently have confirmed they only boooked for two nights.

10-26-2012 at 13:37:12

@ Lynda

The ONF could have fined that motorcyclist (and perhaps they did). See the docs linked at the bottom of this page
At the very least, they will have given him a stern talking-to and escorted him back to a “permitted” route. Thus, they should be able to recall quite a lot about him.

10-26-2012 at 13:49:14

fact: BM saw the OGN4x4 -> So the OGN4x4 saw BM

-> leads to the OGN4x4 was between BM and Martinet .. same stretch where both SM and the AH’s also were!

Q (to EM): Did OGN4x4 see SM and or/AH’s?

If yes -> where and what time?
If no -> explain! (prolly because the OGN4x4 must have been on a side track between BM and Martinet (verify this possibility!)

I assume EM has gone through all this and prolly there must have a slightly ‘better’ timeline than we have. Strange though that their is no extra info on the OGN4x4, I would welcome it tho hear about it.

10-26-2012 at 13:54:36

@ OUI well done i like the way you have done your research i think you are getting near to solve this crime do you remember the game that you hide something and the other party have find it and we used to say : very cold cold , warm, warmer and hot you are getting warm 🙂 we should do more research on BM our ( hero )

10-26-2012 at 13:56:53

i forgot t put the time 12.50 /26/10/12

10-26-2012 at 13:57:50

‘micro’ scenario KillerX/Zainab/BM:

– After dealing the 4×2 headshots KillerX is ‘busy’ arranging or ‘enjoying the view’ or something

– KillerX then sees BM in the distance

– KillerX is clean out of ammo (3×8+1=25)

– KillerX has to silence Zainab but has NO time anymore, BM is coming, and KillerX can NOT deal with BM because he is out of ammo!

– KillerX ‘kills’ Zainab. I mean that KillerX REALLY WANTS HER DEAD. He beats her so hard in the very short time he still has

– Then he escapes into the woods with BM ‘just around the corner’

– But Zainab lives, stumbles and falls

– BM arrives, etc, etc

In other words … Zainab’s life was saved by the arrival of BM which made the KillerX flee while he still tried to kill her. Would he have had 10 extr seconds, Zainab probably would have died because of his beating (the poor soul)

That explains why BM is place so close (200-300m) and why Zaianb was beaten so hard but still survived.

It was a ‘play of seconds’

10-26-2012 at 13:57:57

@Peter, agreed.

If EM is actively seeking this bike, then he must have some idea what he is seeking! It also means that they haven’t come forward to rule themselves out, there can’t be anyone who was in that region on that day who doesn’t know of the crime.

What if the biker wasn’t French, maybe not worth trying to fine him, holiday maker a bit lost, in their eyes at the time.

Why hasn’t there been a description of the bike, there certainly was in the Mohammed Merah case ?

It can’t be Melvyn, our 15 year old giant as he has spoken to newspapers, so no doubt been interviewed by the cops.

The bike seen going towards the scene of the crime around 4pm, I’d love to know if this was from the Jarsy side of the Cherel.

10-26-2012 at 13:59:54


Hello think-tank!
I’m a new member to this site and still having a big job ahead in reading for being up-to-date with you….
– anyway- did you ever discuss if there is a hat/helmet on the dasboard of the BMW? What wd indicate SM being in the car ….
– as well as, why there hadn’t been pix of the women published- even as there was a public inquest by the French police??’
Isn’t that strange? Even that it took so long to identify the two victims – they had the same wounds as others- but they were easy to identify??
Is it, because somebody wanted to remove any traces before making available the identicities to the public??
Did you ever contemplate that it wasn’t Saad who had the meeting? May be it had been on of the two wives for whatever reason?
And last but not least: Why up in the middle of nowhere???
To me, that indicates, that somebody “had invited/ordered” them, to show up there and was surpried about the whole familiy coming along.
So many questions and no answer. As in my murdering long time ago….
Good luck and thanks for the great platform to discuss the case!
Nice and respectful atmosphere!!
Greets from Switzerland

10-26-2012 at 14:02:24

I think that when BM tells he ‘saw Zainab stumbling forward’ … he just missed KillerX. I think KillerX was just out of sight and only a few seconds before made his escape into the woods.

10-26-2012 at 14:05:58

Motorbiker = HT

Now THAT would be something:) (if ppl do not know any more who HT was … check the previous thread)

10-26-2012 at 14:08:11

Apropos Oui’s comments on the RAF man:

I have worked a large part of my life in the same kind of business as Mr. al-Hilli did. Doing so I have also cooperated with the large european players in this field. I could actually have met Mr. al-Hilli then, or seen his name on a document, but I don’t think I have.

However, working in this field, I have talked and discussed a lot with pilots, especially military pilots. What have impressed me most with these men (I have never met a woman in this profession) are that they are very composed and controlled. This has always made me feel very secure when I have had the opportunity to fly with them, or when I have had to trust that they can handle systems, that we have developed together, even in stressful situations. They are (in my country) the opposite to “top gun” pilots (even though they can have wild parties when off duty).

One thing that surprised me then about Mr Brett Martin was that he according to witness obviously paniced, both at the crime scene and afterwards. Mr Martin was though both a pilot and and old RAF man. Pilots are trained to be able to act calmly and rationally even after a plane crash with perhaps 100 casualties and dead. I find it hard to believe that my friends in this trade would behave as Mr Martin did.

10-26-2012 at 14:10:16

@ Marilyn have you seen this blog site most of your comments are there is interesting

10-26-2012 at 14:10:35

@Marilyn Z.

Hold onto your chairs … perhaps with some guessing. I’ll be watching my back from now on.

The previous director before David John Miller is Barry O’Connell.

I have to make a jump to a website about Oriental Rugs (Persian) set up by a person named BOC. All seems sound and legitimate, however there is an odd page out there you must read. Seems like this person has interest in the Iranian opposition group I won’t quote for now on this blog. Today the registration of the website has changed and became anomynous through a provider for registration. Search via dns whois and tracer.

Provided this information all pans out, this could be an ugly double cross by an intelligence service from the Middle-East, using the International Security service as a conduit to set up deal for industrial espionage in the nuclear installation materials special alloys. The set-up was done to build in a firewall between the meeting and the assassins. The goal was to abort the event by all means necessary. Collateral damage will be accepted.

Such a set-up involved a double-cross, duped the middle-men who live in a state of shock and the killers who made a clean get-away. I have more info on BOC, let’s wait to see how many hours his FB page stays in the air. Not surprised to find an AK-47 in the goods. One never knows how elaborate a case can be. See how the CIA provided a bride for al-Alwaki and the screening of the movie Argo creating a Hollywood film production to free US hostages.

BTW The Urban Movers is also nice for cover of intelligence service on foreign soil. Even if the job stays under the radar and may never be published.

10-26-2012 at 14:13:31

BM ‘panic’ … perhaps it is just a ‘communication’ problem. PD and BM not understanding each other languages.

10-26-2012 at 14:18:53

@ M

The killer being “clean out of ammo” is one possibility. Another is that he didn’t have a silencer on his gun. As he saw BM approaching in the distance, he knew that SM would hear any further shots being fired. This would definitely have attracted BM’s attention, making it impossible for the killer to slip away unobserved. Thus, the killer *silenced* Zainab in a *silent* manner, by knocking her out with his gun.

10-26-2012 at 14:28:41

@ Oui

How exactly do you tie the UK company secretary to the kooky US carpet dealer of the same name? (The latter is not shy, letting the world know that he has “shaved” etc., and even a cursory glance at his web site indicates that he has been living in the US for the last 25 years.)

10-26-2012 at 14:29:46


Possbile but he did ‘half work’ because she was not dead and now slowly becoming an imprtant witness.

If KillerX would have had an extra clip. Why not use it on BM too? A hold up, 3-4 bullets will do the trick and 4 bullets left to finish Zainab

Why all the fireworks on SM and AH’s and a no-show on Zainab and BM??

Out of ammo is a ‘elegant’ solution to this (not the only solution, but a ‘good’ solution nevertheless)

10-26-2012 at 14:30:51


Mr. W. Brett had though had a house in France for 6 years, and should be able to explain that he wanted to call the police. The witness though described him as panicking, hardly able to explain anything. I also find his actions on the crime scene, contaminating, moving bodies not very rational.

10-26-2012 at 14:51:29

@ Lars

I tried to post earlier so it still may arrive here, Mr Martin left the RAF in 1989, apparently not been a BA pilot for some years. He was out for an afternoon cycle on a warm sunny day after doing some DIY on his holiday home, maybe preparing it for the winter skiing season, hence new website.

I read that he’d only had the house for two years, English speakers are known for being appalling bad at learning languages, even I after living here 16 years would struggle especially when I’ve just been confronted by such a site, how about you Marilyn ?

@M, if your events are accurate, then the missing biker cannot have been the killer as BM saw it and the Forestry vehicle before arriving at Martinet. So, biker one way or another has something to hide having not come forward.

Anyone on here ever thought that Zaids son Sean O’Reilly-Hilli could be involved ? 28 year old plumber living in a property in Walton-on-Thames owned by his father. If he felt his father was not getting the right inheritance, could he have decided to get the matter dealt with himself ?

For all that I still think it’s local and an unfortunate series of events.

10-26-2012 at 14:55:06


The problem with BM is that the guy became MORE credible. The 4×4 was there and the motorbiker confirmed. Also Lynda explained with her own ‘experience’ that you can ‘linger’ around a scene for minutes not being in full realisation of what really happened.

We are now trying for 7 weeks to imagine the happenings. BM only had 5 minutes:)

I was not easy on BM. I myself once pointed to BM as the possible killer X. For me that is a passed station. For me BM=Truth, despite some questionable stuff like ‘moving bodies’ etc

10-26-2012 at 15:01:11


When he left RAF is, I think, of very little importance: He was trained to be able to handle these kind of events. Thats the difference between him and you and me. I don’t think you forget that kind of training, which is very thorough, so easy.

I think even a frenchman would understand if you shouted: ”call the police”

10-26-2012 at 15:04:37


You take such giant steps 🙂

You don’t have to choose between, being the killer, or being the hero!

He could, you know, be something in between.

10-26-2012 at 15:11:44


And the first question from any of these numbers is what is the emergency, n’est ce pas ?

“The main emergency telephone numbers to be used in France
•15 : ambulance and doctor
•17 : police / gendarmes
•18 : pompiers (fire brigade)
•112 : European general emergency phone number
•115 : for homeless people
•119 : maltreated children

Note that 18, for pompiers, is used for a wide range of problems – not just fires.”

10-26-2012 at 15:16:21


I mentioned a “jump” I had to make and speaking in hunting terms, flushing out game. I will be working on the link. In addition, I will look closely at the security business IS&P Ltd. It’s not uncommon for the CIA to make use of a patsy.

I find it more than coincidental to see changes on sites and the “disappearance” of BM. In hindsight I agree with earlier comment it’s odd to take down the website about Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited and rental holiday home in Lathuile. It seemed important to him for additional income.

10-26-2012 at 15:25:17

@ Oui

I look forward to hearing about that link. Meanwhile, if you need WHOIS records for the carpet man, Robtex still have them:

10-26-2012 at 15:30:27

Mrs. Nitribitt from Switzerland, welcome. I hope you can cope with all comments here. We certainly appreciate insight from persons living in the region. Any relationship? That would only add to the mystery.

10-26-2012 at 15:32:50

@ Lynda- RE Zaid’s son, the problem with either Zaid OR anyone under him acting to kill his brother’s family is that the death of SAH actually complicates the brother’s inheretance UNLESS everyone who would take under SAH is also dead. In other words, the killer would have to also kill both children or it would not affect Zaid’s inheretance in a good way. Also, it would not be in the killer’s interest to make it a clear homicide. A car accident, etc. would be much more effective. Here, the killer wanted everyone to see his work and “admire” his scene. As I said before, he is likely doing things to relive the events, which, if he is like other killers, will include returning to the scene, as Peter pointed out possibly taking a souvenir from the scene, and even reading sites like this. I just don’t see anyone from the family doing this for the purpose of increazing Zaid’s inheretence.

10-26-2012 at 15:43:50

@Mrs Nitribitt

In the past I had a good look at a blown up photo of the cap in the front window of the BMW. I compared this with the one that SM wears in the only photo we have of him. To me it appears the badge is in a different place. SM probably wouldn’t wear a cap whilst cycling, he’d wear a helmet. SAH would probably have a cap in his car as he’s on holiday.

10-26-2012 at 15:49:29


You will see I finished with believing this is local – returning to the scene, agreed. I read somewhere that some mawkish people have even lit a fire there !

There are photos of a cyclist passing, why so soon after such horrific events ? Nosiness, because they can, applies to journos as well, the more gory the better.

I bet all of us on here would like the opportunity to go to the scene, to discover how bad that route is, it’s incline, could the car be seen from the approach, because all the photos and maps are fine but they don’t give a feel for the limits of time and space.

I wonder if the police have someone discreetly watching the area, to see who passes, lingers, picks up a souvenir.

As no doubt this blog and others are being watched.

10-26-2012 at 15:51:55

@ Pete.R one of the reconstructions, photo somewhere in Al-Hilli images, indicates that there was a mobile phone on this spot, maybe it was on top of a cap to stop it sliding about.

10-26-2012 at 15:52:46

@ Pete.R- I don’t think we have a known photo of SM. From what everyone gathered the photo that was on the internet for a shooting club is not confirmed to be his and some doubt has been cast upon it on the previous blog msgs…

10-26-2012 at 15:53:43

@Pete R.

As has been said many times before in this blog: The man on the photo, has the same name, but is living in another part of France!
Noone has, to my knowledge, been able to show any link between the man on the photograph and the victim in this murder case.

10-26-2012 at 16:07:00

Does anyone have the details of where Sylvie L lives and what Supermarket she used, I’m thinking along with Max that the killer left the Martinet just upon BM’s arrival, made his way to the light coloured Peugeot that he’d left in the St Rulph parking, road runs down to Faverges. The car passing Sylvie L after 4pm as this was the time on her receipt.

Here is a link to the Supermarkets

10-26-2012 at 16:11:56

@ OUI be careful you are getting warmer i think sometimes is good if you get into something to email it directly to Marilyn email and may be to put a resumee in here i think we should start to be careful to what we are writing here i’m sure that all our comments is monitored by other parties and maybe they can easily go into our private emails and details (((this is just a thought)))

10-26-2012 at 16:28:57

@Shushu: Re: be careful about what we write here.

Shushu, I am expecting the police to burst in on me any morning now at dawn. The law in France is that the police can not enter the home of someone in France during the hours of darkness unless called or if there is a fire. This is why you will always see/read that the police raided a place at dawn.

Friday, October 26

10-26-2012 at 16:28:59


I was also thinking he parked at St Rulph, but considered it too far away. I guessed at about 6kms, downhill and rough terrain. For me he would need to do this in 15 mins to nearly run SL off the road. I think I’ll have a proper look at the map and try and work out the distance.

10-26-2012 at 16:30:59

@Lynda: Re: You will see I finished with believing this is local – returning to the scene, agreed. I read somewhere that some mawkish people have even lit a fire there !

I am mawkish too and want to go there.

The British media reported that the coppers were at the Al-Hilli funeral.

Friday. October 26

10-26-2012 at 16:40:51

THIS HAS NO RELATION TO THIS SITE WANTED TO CHANGE THE MOOD IF YOU PERMIT ME Marilyn you can check it and if you think is ok you can put it here is so funny that i couldn’t stop watching it is a link to a video

10-26-2012 at 16:57:55


Refer back to Oui ordnance map of the reserve and I would estimate just over 3 kms, although the track wiggles about a bit.

According to the timing of the detonations heard it was about 15:30, Sylvie L had to swerve out of the way after 16:00 as that was the time on her receipt when she checked.

Click on telecharger to see the map. Pete this is also for those who haven’t been with us on the previous thread.

10-26-2012 at 17:35:46

Have caught up with reading both threads

Friday 10.26.12 16.35UKtime.

10-26-2012 at 17:49:52

@j cave – Oh, must have taken you some time. But it is interesting is it not, all the views and analyses.

Friday, October 26.

10-26-2012 at 17:53:50

@Shushu: Re : @ Marilyn have you seen this blog site most of your comments are there is interesting

I just had a look at it now. Interesting.

10-26-2012 at 17:58:40

@ Marilyn

If every cloud has a silver lining, with all the posters, reposting and lurkers I wonder if your book sales will increase ?

Will be in touch to get your book on Dr Petiot signed for OH’s birthday.

10-26-2012 at 18:07:59

@Lynda : Re book sales.

So far no sign of it, Lynda …

Friday, October 26

10-26-2012 at 18:11:31

@shushu @All

Don’t worry, I just went downstair and bolted the doors. I live more or less in a gated community, luckily with neighbours close by who have 24/7 security guards. I do feel safe.

Another organisation located at London address is Talking 2 Minds, treatment of SAS members and veterans suffering from PTSD or other severe stress related conditions.

Found so far two security groups linked with same directors, can’t quite determine who their clients are as none show up on search engines on the Internet. Quite different when I checked for an unknown security organisation Blue Mountains Libya who took a hit at the recent US consulate attack.

Sorry guys, for the time being, leads seem to “dead end” in directors and British mercenaries with genealogy similar to African campaigns and perhaps some contact with France Legionaires. I’ll keep digging.

BOC living in the States with address near Washington DC, I’ll check whether there are family ties. We did the same for the background of the Al-Hilli family in Najaf and Baghdad, Iraq, didn’t we?

10-26-2012 at 18:14:45

Anyone know Swedish to translate the following for us:

Lägger in en lång kommentar från bloggen som drivs av den fransk-brittiska författarinnan Marilyn Z. Tomlins. Kommentaren är skriven av Zak Martin, enligt Tomlins beskriven som en “renowned Psychic and Psychological Profiler”, och ska ha anlitas av brittisk polis vid andra mordfall.

I gather it is about Zak Martin the medium. This is from the site which Shushu mentioned and which is reposting your comments.

By the way, I emailed Zak to ask him if he could let us have another of his insights into the murders, but he did not reply.

Maybe I should slip on my sackcloth, burn some eucalyptus leaves, and while I drink the milk of a rat, I should stare into my crystal ball and maybe I will be able to solve the murders.

Friday, October 26

10-26-2012 at 18:16:06


Just ordered the book through Amazon, will be in touch to arrange for you to sign it.

10-26-2012 at 18:21:27


Martinet to St Rulph

As the crow flies its just over 3km, the path twists and turns a lot and is uphill and downhill and looks pretty heavy going, so it’s probably about 5km or more.
If he is fit and very good cross country maybe 5.5/6kph, maybe faster if he is an athlete and can run it. So even if he achieves 7kph he is going to take 43 minutes. If he runs off when BM arrives he would not get to St Rulph until after 16:15. I still think this is a possibility, but the car would not be the white Peugeot.

I am wondering how far you can legally drive up the Ancien Combe d’Ire from Arnand and park up? On the PDF map this track stops about 2.5km from Martinet, but on Google it goes all the way there.

10-26-2012 at 18:21:46

@Lynda : The book

Cancel the order and I will send you a copy.

10-26-2012 at 18:24:51


re translation

Google did it for me:

Adds a long comment from the blog run by the Franco-British writer Marilyn Z. Tomlins. The comment was written by Zak Martin, according Tomlins described as a “renowned Psychic and Psychological Profiles,” and should have hired by British police at other murder cases.

10-26-2012 at 18:28:12


Escape route white Peugeot 206/306 witnessed near Chevaline

Video taken in front of the home Sylvie Lecoeur. Location is in Chevaline, intersection of Chemin rural dit de la Grande Combe and Chemin du Moulin. The supermarkt was most likely in Doussard, Supermarché Au Regal de Savoie a 3 min. drive to the point where see met the white car. So the white car traveled on Chemin de la Corbette / Chemin rural du Pré des Granges à Ugeret. In Armand he made a left on Chemin rural de Chevaline à Armand from where in a sharp right turn he would meet Sylvie Lacoeur at the intersection with Route de Chevaline. Escape route via Doussard on Route de Pont Monnet (D281) and turns left on Route d’Annecy (D1508). This is a major route Ugine – Faverges – Annecy.

10-26-2012 at 18:33:19

See previous post ..

Oops, missing link of map Supermarché in Doussard.

10-26-2012 at 19:18:12


I nearly totally agree but I prefer he came from Ancien Combe d’Ire. If he can park with 1km of Martinet then it can be the white Peugeot. By the way wasn’t it a small white car? i.e. SL didn’t say Peugeot.

10-26-2012 at 19:19:53

…….have a look at the various short videos, this one gives a better idea of the lay of the land, especially the climbs on the routes off the Route Forestiere, not for the fainthearted !

10-26-2012 at 19:20:54

@Peter.R. Re: Swedish translation.

Thanks. We can more or less make out what they wrote from this.

10-26-2012 at 19:23:29

Pete.R – will have to see her testimony again, maybe the press have added 206/306, which of course is a Peugeot, but we’re now up to the 208 so an older model.

Isn’t the Supermarche in Doussard a Shopi ? They are not big, would be helpful to knw where she went.

10-26-2012 at 19:38:04
10-26-2012 at 20:18:06


The Shoppi is at the junction of rue des Fontaines and Route de Chevaline. It is quite large for a Shoppi – has a small car park and looks as though you could stock up for a couple of days there.

Interesting that you post the link to the Chasseurs Alpins. Peter posted the same link a few days ago. I’d be interested to hear your reasoning.

I had posted a link to a regiment of the Légion étrangère who also train in the Alps – further south though, in Valloire.

My thinking was they perhaps have knowledge of the area, know how to use guns, may have “history” with Iraqi’s or muslims. Peter was able to show the chasseurs train specifically in the Massif du Bauges.

The chasseurs were alleged to be one of the targets of Adlène Hicheur.

10-26-2012 at 20:29:16

@Lynda @Pete.R. and @Peter in previous thread

Lynda, thanks for the nice video. Take a look at the aerial shot [1:07], it shows the small road I believe must be Chemin rural dit Ancien de chemin de La Combe d’Yre previously looked at by Peter and Pete. Track is visible in the Google map, not in the detailed map of the Rèserve de Nationale de chasse des Bauges [pdf]. In the latter map are shown the ZQF areas prohibited entry for cars/motorbikes. It appears these are the elevated areas near Col de Chérel and beyond to the south upto the village of Jarsy. This puts the location of the motorbike at great distance from parking Martinet, but within sightings of the shepard and his wife. Website Le Parc naturel régional du Massif des Bauges.

Geologival structure, protection and preservation Massif de Bauges Info ZQFareas on page 44 [alert large pdf 9.1Mb]

10-26-2012 at 21:09:28

Of course the Afghans are a different people than Iraqis, especially AH family who have lived decades in the UK. And the Al-Hilli family were Shia and in opposition to Saddan Hussein and the Baath party. That would mean a rogue soldier gone mad? Looking at the training and history, that is unlikely. Against their code of honor. A special forces soldier 27eme BCA, could be at 10m distance, camouflaged for no one to see. I would feel very uncomfortable in an isolated place finding dead bodies. I belief a mercenary is more plausible.

Afghanistan Outpost named after Cpl. Nicolas Belda (23) 27e Bataillon de Chasseurs Alpins (27th Mountain Infantry Battalion) from Albi, Midi-Pyrénées, France. Killed when the VAB armored vehicle he was driving was struck by an anti-tank rocket during an operation 37 miles (60 km) northeast of Kabul, Afghanistan, on March 14, 2009. YouTube video Hommage et Respect a cet Brave Soldat Mort Pour LaFrance (Nicolas BELDA-23ans) 27eme BCA. See also the other videos!!

10-26-2012 at 21:26:20

If any of you want a better view of the terrain and roads than you get with Google Earth try:

A bit fiddly to work with at first, I have Martinet at: lat 45.7289 & lon 6.2242, elev 804, note the sawmill is at elev 554m, a climb of 250m over 3kms.

Ancien Combe d’Ire is an excellent escape route.

10-26-2012 at 21:28:30

@ Oui – I know you were exasperated at me when I thought the ident of the Martinet was in a different place to where the Reserve map placed it, I was going by the many photos, including BBC that mis-identified it. This is not the Col de Cherel follow the red route to St Rulph.

The video I posted showed the proximity of the continuation of tarmac beyond the Martinet, zigzag and the other zigzag that joined the route earlier, where in Gooogle maps you see cut down entire logs.

So, once upon a time a lovely, blonde girl from Grignon …… met an equally lovely young man who was in the ‘chasseurs alpine’, they were young and in love …… he was then posted to Afghanistan. Whilst he was away, Claire who had qualified as a pharmacist to join the family firm (quoting from someone else) met and engaged in a relationship with a married man with two children (ages differ, Marilyn says 9&7, press say teenagers), she is swept off her feet by a man some 16 years older than her (handsome, rich or big dick – take your choice). She falls pregnant, resulting in him leaving his wife and children (maybe the missus moved out taking them with her).

So, months later, her ‘alpinist’ returned during her pregnancy knowing the child wasn’t his. After an afternoon of drinking with his mates decides to contact Claire, she fears this contact will enrage her partner Sylvain. Time passes, the baby is born, a boy.

The alpinist begins to bother them more and more especially after drinking, he eventually makes contact with Sylvain Mollier, asks for a meet – the latter only too keen to put a stop to the interference with his new life, no doubt suffering enough with the onslaught of abuse he gets from the wife.

He agrees to meet at a spot suggested at a certain time, Le Martinet, the alpinist knows the area well enough to leave a car accessible, he stood just inside the clearing allowing Mollier to pass him, then opens fire, some shots downed him, leaving Mollier lying on the floor in pain.

At almost the same moment, a car arrived, spotting Mollier and his bicycle on the ground, he drove over and tried to see if he could help, the only escape route for the alpinist back to his car was to reveal himself – I doubt he knew there was no phone signal (so this may have been to pass the Al-Hillis or go back down to the earlier split in the road, another hairpin bend, I favour the former) his game plan has been disturbed.

The unwelcome witnesses were to be dispensed with, he returned to his vehicle, a car.

The rest BM, PD, SL, Melvin and his Dad, the builders – bystanders.

10-26-2012 at 21:45:10

@Lars : re: BM had panicked.

I find your observation with regard to the panicky Brett Martin very interesting. I like to think that the pilot of a plane in which I am flying won’t become a panicky jellyfish in a threatening situation.

Friday, 26 Oct at 21.45

10-26-2012 at 21:51:17


Lovely story and well written Lars, I’m nearly convinced, but…..why take 25 rounds of ammo to kill SM?

10-26-2012 at 21:56:20

@Pete.R It’s Lynda ! Ammo, because he can.

10-26-2012 at 22:03:06

Mind if I throw in a stick of dynamite? Bang!

I will refer to the person of interest as BOC-J because his father passed away in May 2000. I understand we’ve got a mercenary, a veteran of Reagan’s Iran Contra affair and the “freedom fight” in Nicaragua.

The Rugs Affair – Meeting Reagan and the Saudi Attack on the Twin Towers on 9/11

September 11th 2001 America noticed that we were at war with Terrorism. The war had been going on for years but it took 911 to wake us up. Years ago I warned someone who should have known better in our Government about Osama Bin Laden and Taliban. This time I am sad to be proven right.

One thing I have to note: the deeper I get into this the more I note that Osama Bin Laden, the Moslem Brotherhood, and Saudi Arabia seem to have identical goals. I can no longer separate them. I believe Osama Bin Laden is working on behalf of the Saudi Government and that he co-opted the Moslem Brotherhood to further the Saudi Goals. When I break down the goals and aspirations of this face of Islamic Terrorism they are identical.

Persian Rugs – Turkish Rugs – Suzani – Oriental Rugs – Persian Carpets – Baluch Rugs – A Nice Offer

Persian Rugs for Sale – Delivery conditions: goods can pass by Israel – Mossad will be quiet and CIA supportive

I have more … I’ll be careful in the wording for the spies and Internet crawlers.

10-26-2012 at 22:04:26

@Peter R.

Thank you for the undeserved praise 🙂 I though have a competitor, Lynda.

Since her story is very similar to the second of my short stories, I like hers too 🙂 (though I skipped the military background, which could of course be true)

10-26-2012 at 22:07:16

should of course be @Pete R., Sorry!

22:06 10.26.2012

10-26-2012 at 22:07:56

@ Lynda : Re So, once upon a time a lovely, blonde girl from Grignon …… met an equally lovely young man Sorry but i disagree totally with that lovely love story because it would take a very stupid man to meet his rival in a very secluded area

10-26-2012 at 22:10:03

@Oui : Poetry corner ….

I too love this poem: Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-Dylan Thomas

10-26-2012 at 22:11:34

@Lars, @all

The story that I will write will drip blood and guts.

10-26-2012 at 22:20:29

@ Oui you may be right – but I’ve lost interest.

You do not have a Europeen mindset, pardon, excuses, it isn’t all about the US of A.

I am awaiting from a very good friend who was a pilot for American Airways, now an examiner as to what their training actually entailled, the man I know is not a James Bond character.

My Dad is ex-RAF has I have stated before, Suez, if what you learn stays with you all your life, hahaha !

More recently, cousins boyfriend in RAF, a wimp! I think the difference is if they have seen action – William Brett Martin hadn’t.

10-26-2012 at 22:24:39


Here is a list of all gun clubs in Haute Savoie: (Ugine belongs not to Haute Savoie)

The RAF man (W. Brett) must have a very free relationship to his name since his wife’s name is Theresa Valerie Martin. Maybe Valerie is also a surname? 🙂

10-26-2012 at 22:27:39

Marilyn, Dylan Thomas….

Did you see the news in Wales about a guy that apparently after having a row with his ‘wife’ set off in a transit van and deliberately drove into women and children, killed one and left another 14 in hospital – RAGE, me thinks.

10-26-2012 at 22:36:52

@Lars you have explained everything with the name !

He is William Brett adopting his wifes surname Martin, this happens when there are no sons from the preceeding generation.(His wifes)

So his signatures are correct and he is Captain William Brett.

@Oui – love is blind …….

10-26-2012 at 22:41:13


Most murders are in the relational sphere and are quite interesting. Is it common to take out a family as collateral damage? I can’t remember such a crime, however to kill the targeted person in rage and hate is already quite difficult. Suddenly confronted with a family and a child is of a higher order. After killing his target, he would run or somewhere in the timeline kill himself. None of this happened. To execute four persons you have to be hardened and trained as a soldier, mafia or mercenary.

10-26-2012 at 22:53:12

Yes, maybe you are right about the name, might explain it.

@all Morbid:

One of the gun clubs, Les Chevaliers tireurs rumilliens, even have a “Mollier competition”:

Concours Mollier – CTR
Les Chevaliers tireurs rumilliens vous invitent à leur concours de printemps “Concours Mollier” 25M et 50M au Stand de la Fuly les samedi 21 et dimanche 22 avril 2012.

Carabine 60B, Pistolet 25M, Pistolet 50M.

10-26-2012 at 22:53:17

@ Oui – exactly. I trust ‘les flics’ are looking at the Military Base nearby. Maybe they already have found the culprit and are working with their hands tied behind their backs.

I will repeat for you and those joining the site

“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin” Deuteronomy 24:16

10-26-2012 at 23:01:07


I must once again remind you about that man on Utöya, Norway. He killed 69 (!) persons, children and teenagers. He was not “soldier, mafia or mercenary”, just an “ordinary” middleclass norwegian man.

10-26-2012 at 23:09:00


SM was the target, WHY kill the AH’s
AH was the target, WHY kill SM and the women
AH’s were the target, WHY kill SM
AH & SM were the target, WHY kill the women, and WHERE is the ‘link’ (sms, email, phone records)

7 weeks, and NO link found. So no ‘meeting’. So no matter what you are stuck with unexplainable collateral damage …

… UNLESS it is a ‘nutter’

The ‘nutter’ took out SM, because it was his most dangerous target. Fitter, younger and stronger than AH. Beside, the women were trapped, AH en Zainab outside. The ‘nutter’ decided SM first the family second

The ‘nutter’ used an old gun and used up all his ammo (3×8+1=25) on the adults, dealt with Zaineb by beating her to what he thought death. And left the scene (as he saw BM arriving)

Some say, ‘nutter’ kill themselves. But did this happen in the XB case? (I’m no expert on that case, but I got the impression that the XB case was not ‘solved’ and no Killer was found suicided)

To get rid of the ‘nutter’ we have to come up with motives. Why did AH go up there, was there a ‘link’ between SM and AH, did SM have a ‘double life’ … There is no shred of motive so far. I would like to see a real motive. To solve this case. But 7 weeks of nothingness … there can be a reason for nothingness, namely that there simply is nothing solid to be found.

10-26-2012 at 23:09:02

Well, there goes my theory that they seemed to release info about this case on Fridays!!!

10-26-2012 at 23:09:51

@Lynda : Dylan Thomas crept up in one of Oui’s urls and it just so happens to be one of my favourite poems.

10-26-2012 at 23:24:12

@Marilyn Z.

Thank you for that touching poem. Yes, I do remember seeing it in one of the 1,000 internet pages that have passed by.

@Linda … Love is blind

Everyday I gain new knowledge, thanks. 🙂 😉

Chinese proverb:
None of the husbands are shot while doing the dishes.

10-26-2012 at 23:26:12

We may disagree about the why, nevertheless it happened, contrary to the Craig Murray madhatters suggesting extraction which is why I posted that the coffins were opened so as they faced Mecca – ooh, they were wax masks, if you want a conspiracy you will find loopholes.

Be it a local gone mad, a Mossad hit or personal revenge a killer is still out there and they knew how to escape.

@Marilyn – I do not believe that the sainted Diana was disposed of, another series of events.

10-26-2012 at 23:28:49


Have you been paying attention?
EM released his ideas through posts @Marilyn Z. Tomlins today! Read all about it in tomorrow’s British press.

10-26-2012 at 23:29:12

@M : re : 7 weeks, and NO link found. So no ‘meeting’. So no matter what you are stuck with unexplainable collateral damage …

What if the two women were the targets?

10-26-2012 at 23:33:43

@Lynda: Re: The sainted Diana.

Wait till I’ve written my book …

10-26-2012 at 23:38:05

@ Marilyn – Under Milkwood, my favourite – I’ve been to Laugharne and Fishguard.

The film with Burton, Taylor and O’Toole, blind Captain Cat and Rosie Probert, the local prostitute, Gossamer et al..

Back to reality, love and rage can make people behave in a most bizarre manner, without reason or explanation.

I would like to know when Molliers divorce was finalised.

10-26-2012 at 23:47:53


We’ve been playing at the next level, I do hope you are playing sudoku on multiple fields at the same time. Ambidexterous persons will have the ability and talent to solve this awful murder case quicker. I do hope we’ll stick together as long as possible and gain further insight by looking at any loose ends.

Good bye for now 26-10-2012 23:45 CET

10-26-2012 at 23:49:09

bed … tomorrow is another day …

10-26-2012 at 23:52:16

and it’s all ‘Gone with the wind’.

10-26-2012 at 23:53:19

somebody send me a joke regarding love is funny pls apologies if you don’t like it
Two women are talking about sex- Tell me, what is sex?
– Sex is when you dress up go to a bar flirt with a guy he buys you drinks. You go to bed and he lives some money on your table.
– And what is good sex?
– Good sex is when you dress up go to a bar flirt with a guy he buys you drinks you go to bed and he leaves lots of money on your table.
– And what is love?
– Love? That’s a Jewish invention to avoid leaving money on the table.

10-27-2012 at 00:25:13

2012/10/26 23:24 BST
“… But 7 weeks of nothingness … there can be a reason for nothingness, namely that there simply is nothing solid to be found.”
Or maybe what has been found would embarrass the French/British governments or maybe, say, the USA or a country supported by the USA. Hence the “nothingness”? Just another possibility.

As you have probably gathered I don’t buy the “nutter” theory, unless this one is very very lucky and very very cunning.

10-27-2012 at 00:53:10

Ok, let try the ‘meeting’ again.

What I do not understand is how SM and AH could have set up a meeting and a time, WITHOUT leaving a trace. They are both dead so they can’t do some ‘clean up’. As I understand, both locations SM and AH were searched, I guess including computers, laptops, phones, etc … yet nothing, no sms, email, phonecall record has turned up to ‘proof’ a link??

How did they decide on the place and time of the meeting?

Ok, we can assume that the ‘investigators’ cheat. That they are ‘in’, because it is something ‘secret’ … but I find that just as difficult to swallow as a ‘nutter’

There is something not ‘right’ about this case. Elements do not make sense.

I very much was, and still am, into the ‘SM as only target’. Something local and private matter probably … but WHY on earth all the collateral damage. WHY such an ‘overkill’???

As one of you also asked. Why didn’t the KillerX not just relocated to ‘ambush’ 300 meters so he had SM all for himself.

The ONLY thing I can think of is that KillerX really really wanted/needed SM to be dead, and continued with his ‘ambush’ even when confronted with the disruption of the AH’s arriving … so he KILLED SM first and then decided (or had to decide) to kill all the witnesses too.

IF this is true. IF the KillerX had this very strong and immediate URGE to kill SM there and then … then it follows that SM MUST HAVE a terrible hidden secret. Enough terrible to be killed for (with 3 adults collateral no problem)

Now, if the ‘investigators’ declare they have disected SM and nothing was found … what do I have to think of that???

– M

10-27-2012 at 01:12:36

@ M as EM said i think we must wait 10 years before this crime is solved goodnight to you and all 12.11am 26/10/12

10-27-2012 at 01:53:42

3012/10/27 00:53 BST
“… yet nothing, no sms, email, phonecall record has turned up to ‘proof’ a link??

How did they decide on the place and time of the meeting?”
Some possible ways:
1) through 3rd party(s)
2) sharing a login to an email system and communicating via the drafts folder (ie: no emails sent – no trace need be left on a personal computer if you are careful)

If 3rd party(s) was/were involved then it is also possible that the information about a meeting could leak to another party who was hostile to the aims of the meeting….

10-27-2012 at 02:06:53

@ Oui: wow- you already found my pix 😉
Still busy with the first thread…. BTW: For the non-native speakers it’s hard work with all the abrevations which mostly are not in my dictionary…. and the fact, that no time is given wth threads (don’t dare to have a break or you get lost)
I”d like to put my previous question again re the two women. What if they (or one of them) where the puzzle piece all looking for???
To me, it’s more than strange that no pix of them were published at all- neither in press – nor on the web
(somebody did some dry-cleaning?)
Ok, I see I see, – you’re right – there was no pix of SM either.
Any idea?
Someone here mentioned, the campingground had confirmed that they had booked only 2 days- hm… any idea about that fact? Sounds as if they like to have lots of work during holiday. If you imagine all the trouble – just to settle down just a few kilometers further….

10-27-2012 at 02:18:14

sorry, I forgot – shame on me.
@ Sushu
… that means, Marilyn’s book will be a never ending story as she will be busy here for a long long time 😉 😉

BTW: tell me, how did you get your avatar in that box??

10-27-2012 at 07:11:49

@Marilyn Z.

Present and accounted for. Really needed a good night’s rest.
27-10-2012 07:10 CET

10-27-2012 at 08:34:39

10.27.2012 08:28

@ Mrs Nitribitt

Regarding the women: You are right. One of the problems with the official investigation is that they neglect 3 of the 4 victims. They are sadly enough treated as “accessories” in this drama.

How to get a gravatar: Search for gravatar in the previous thread and you will find Marilyns explanation.

10-27-2012 at 09:08:38

Saturday, October 27 – Hello everyone. I’m up, but not quite awake yet. Till later.

10-27-2012 at 09:48:35

Good Morning all @ bleb i only said it will take 10 years you have already jumped 1000 years 🙂 look at your date @ Mrs Nit…. Re: Gravatar Marilyn said you go to sign up and get your Gravatar

10-27-2012 at 09:54:23

Good Morning Marilyn we have a new murder the EXXON shall we start with that one too??? Nicholas Mockford died after being shot three times on the evening of Oct. 14, while his wife was severely beaten

10-27-2012 at 10:11:37

09:08 27-10-2012

Lars and Lynda apologies for mixing you up. Maybe you can be co-authors?
My idea for a book would be; “How to solve a murder using the internet” and would be this blog plus all the info and news items gathered from the internet.

So far NM murder appears to be a robbery as her handbag was snatched.

10-27-2012 at 10:12:03

10.27.2012 10:11

Sort of summary.

Criminology teaches us that the crime can often tell us something about the perpetrator. Even if the perpetrator deliberately tries to avoid it, his actions are in some way typical for the man in question, and can thus betray him. Especially under stress a perpetrator falls back into old “habits”. You can, though, not pick one fact and say that this information will reveal the perpetrator. You have to fit in all facts. So what do we know now about these murders?

Place: Lay-by Martinet on Route Forestiere in Combe d’Ire, Haute-Savoie. I know that we disagree how well choosen that place was for this massacre, how risky it was and how many escape routes there are. Perhaps we can though all agree that it is an unusual place for a multiple murder.

Time: Wednesday 15:00 – 16:00. The perpetrator was obviously not working that day. All the other persons involved were on a sort of holiday.

Weapon: Probably a vintage Luger-type pistol in 7.65 x 21 Para. calibre. I don’t know if our weapon experts would allow me to write semi-antique?
I know that many commentators have reacted to the amount of ammunition that the perpetrator carried with him. We know that he had at least 25 rounds.
Is there actually any knowledge how much ammunition killers usually use/carry with them, e.g. to kill 4 persons or 1 person, is 25 rounds an exceptional figure?
I also wonder if this amount of ammunition can ring a bell with anyone? Since it is not my cup of tea, I wonder how much ammunition do people carry around in their pockets? If you are training in a shooting club? If you are a policeman or gendarme? ….and so on
My thought is, that perhaps it is a habit with the perpetrator (in certain situations), to have that amount (or more) of ammunition in his pockets.

Modus operandi: Sadly enough we still know very little for sure. I am quite certain that the gendarmerie knows a lot more, though what Eric Maillaud has said might indicate that they are not themselves quite sure what happened that Wednesday afternoon.

Even with all the work by Max and others here, we don’t know if the french cyclist or the family arrived first at the lay-by Martinet.

We though seem to know now that it all happened very quickly. With all the coming and goings of all the persons involved, incuding witnesses, probably within 20 minutes. The killings probably within a minute, or at most a couple of minutes.

No one is seen following the car to the lay-by.

The movements of the car on the lay-by are also still very uncertain.

It has been confirmed, through the soil on the soles of their shoes, that the older girl and the father left the car. The investigation leaks say that it was also blood from the french cyclist on the father’s clothes.

The perpetrator used at least 25 bullets, how many hit the victims is still not revealed by the investigation. No bullets, as far as we know, hit the car.

We know that the older girl was shot in the shoulder and had serious face injuries.

The investigation leaks tell us that the cyclist was shot first, but that is still not corroborated by the investigators. The people in the car were probably shot at very close range. The leaks say that cyclist was hit by five bullets, range unknown, but probably at two different times (though within minutes).

The movements, existence and identity of cars and motorcycles in the area at the time of the killings are still very uncertain.

So far, no earlier connections between the persons involved have been possible to establish.

10-27-2012 at 10:54:19

@ Peter i don’t think the handbag was stolen they said they asked for money and car but nothing was taken @ Lars thank you for the resumee but from what i remember regarding the shooting it was said that somebody heard continuous shooting for 30 second so again i don’t believe the EM story that SM was shot first then the killer came back to him to finish him off

10-27-2012 at 11:06:22


You are right about the 30 seconds of shooting, but I left it open to doubt that the witness might have missed 1-2 shots after the massive 23-24 shots.

10-27-2012 at 11:12:57


In your summary/profiling you have made one very important point, the location of the massacre was chosen. The killer also chose to use a Luger and 25 rounds. He also chose to hit Zainab i.e not strangle, stab etc. He also chose Wednesday September 5th at 15:35.

10-27-2012 at 11:32:25

@ Lars

Regarding the amount of ammunition people “usually” carry with them, there is a simple answer: In France, it is illegal for civilians (except those rare individuals who have a special permit) to have a loaded pistol, ready to fire, on them. In doing so, the offender already committed a crime.

Police officers and gendarmes carry three full magazines, one in the pistol and two spares. (In the photo discussed earlier, you can see the two spare mags in their holders on the camouflage-clad gendarmes inspecting that drain.) That is because, in the course of discharging their duties, they might become involved in a sustained firefight, perhaps with multiple offenders, perhaps with offenders carrying automatic weapons – say, a gang of armed robbers holed up inside a bank. Members of SWAT-type units may also carry a secondary back-up handgun, such as a little revolver in an ankle holster.

I have looked at some crime statistics from Germany (sorry, I couldn’t find any for France): 95% of gun crime victims were “only” shot 1-3 times, with only one shot in 50% of cases. Unfortunately, there are no data on how much ammo the offenders actually had on them at the time.

So, what does this tell us about the Chevaline killer? IMHO, it says that he either anticipated killing multiple victims on that day, or feared becoming involved in a sustained shoot-out. I would go further than that and say that both the number of shots fired and the type of weapon used were non-pragmatic choices. I don’t want to provide a link here, because the images are too gory, but do look up the Rettendon murders, in which three armed criminals were killed inside their car with three shots from a shotgun. (The killer also had a Browning Hi-Power pistol for back-up.) That, using a shotgun and perhaps carrying his pistol as a back-up, would have been a pragmatic way of committing these murders – but the killer didn’t do that. I strongly presume that he did it this way because this particular way means something to him, perhaps because the type of gun used is his “calling card.”

That leads me to the point about nutters self-destructing: Whilst that is often true for spree killers / rampage killers
it does not hold true for serial killers

Personally, I tend more and more towards the belief that the Chevaline murders and the murder of Xavier Baligant were committed by the same serial killer – I think of him as “William No-Tell” – who has a particular fetish about killing at close range with ancient Swiss Army weapons.

10-27-2012 at 11:45:02

10:44 27/10/12
It’s interesting that French police etc carry three magazines. Maybe this indicates that the killer had been trained this way in the past. Old habits die hard.

10-27-2012 at 11:47:02

PS: In the Xavier Baligant case, there were reports that the same type of Swiss Army K31 carbine had been used in an earlier offence. The investigating magistrate dismissed that by saying that this offence had occurred a long time ago and had nothing to do with the XB case.

I have since wondered what that “had nothing to do with it” means. Perhaps he merely failed to spot a connection between the shootings because the victims had nothing to do with each other, which is only what you would expect in the case of a serial killer.

10-27-2012 at 11:51:27


The article I read, which I now can’t find, stated that a similar weapon had been used in a crime SINCE the XB murder.

10-27-2012 at 11:56:43

@ Pete.R.

1. Valid point.
2. That *is* interesting. I may have misunderstood the situation. Please do try to find that article; I shall also look for it.

10-27-2012 at 12:04:50

@ Pete.R.

There we are. The original article (or one of them)
>> “Un autre fait a été signalé avec le même type d’arme qui a servi à abattre Xavier. Les enquêteurs travaillent là-dessus”, a confié Maître Dalne, l’avocat des parents de la victime à nos confrères.

And the refutation
>> Alors, vraie nouvelle piste, ou faux scoop ? La piste d’un autre fait commis avec une arme de même type n’est en réalité pas nouvelle. « Une arme similaire a été utilisée une fois mais il y a longtemps et il n’y a aucun lien avec l’affaire de l’A 31 », déclarait encore dans nos colonnes, mercredi, Yvon Calvet, le procureur adjoint au parquet de Nancy, des propos qui vont à l’encontre des éléments avancés ce jeudi par nos confrères du Benelux.

10-27-2012 at 12:22:40

hello @ all:
I tend to say that the killer was used to use that wappon from earlier times… might be he’s now “retired”, means he’s not the youngest and has large experience in shooting. May be an ex agent of XY, soldier…. Might be he knows one of the victims in person and it was some kind of venegance???
@ Lars: SM – according to the latest news- got 7 shoots, 2 in the head…. didn’t BM tell us, that he tried to get his pulse?
Nothing makes sense in that case –

10-27-2012 at 12:36:41
10-27-2012 at 12:54:50


Secrets are behind paid content, am anxious to find out if there are any substantial revelations coming …

10-27-2012 at 12:55:13

Here is the copy quickly done as the article has gone to ‘pay’ !

Les principales étapes de la tuerie de Chevaline, commise le 5 septembre au sud du lac d’Annecy (Haute-Savoie), sont désormais connues. Selon les éléments de synthèses partielles transmis à la Direction générale de la gendarmerie nationale, auxquels Le Monde a eu accès, “la dynamique de la scène de crime” a été identifiée par les enquêteurs, même si toutes les expertises techniques et scientifiques n’ont pas encore été remises aux deux juges d’instruction chargés de l’affaire.

Voir l’infographie Tuerie de Chevaline : un tueur seul, déterminé et d’une grande brutalité

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Quatre personnes ont été tuées, trois membres d’une famille britannique et un cycliste français. Ces crimes ont suscité une vive émotion en France et en Grande-Bretagne, au regard de leur violence et du mystère qui perdure sur leur cause.


“La dynamique de la scène est aujourd’hui cernée”, a confirmé au Monde le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Eric Maillaud. Ce dernier a néanmoins tenu à préciser qu’il “reste de nombreuses inconnues, comme, par exemple, l’ordre dans lequel ces personnes ont été abattues, et aucune piste n’est, à ce jour, privilégiée”.

D’après une source proche de l’enquête, la science ne permet pas, pour l’instant, “de déterminer, dans le laps de temps très court qui a séparé chaque mort, si le cycliste a été tué avant ou après les membres de la famille britannique ; tout scénario sur cette question ne s’appuie que sur des suppositions”.

Lire Tuerie de Chevaline : le l’Irak aux clubs de tir locaux, les enquêteurs ne négligent aucune piste

Si la justice n’est pas en mesure d’attester l’objectif du tueur, les enquêteurs se félicitent de pouvoir, désormais, s’appuyer sur une compréhension de la scène de crime corroborée par les expertises. Ils considèrent ainsi que le tireur était seul et n’a fait usage que d’une seule arme, un P06, la version 7.65 du P08, de type Luger. Elle était en dotation au sein de l’armée suisse dans les années 1920 et 1930. Les tueurs professionnels n’utilisent pas ce type d’arme. Elle relève aujourd’hui davantage de l’objet de collection, et la gendarmerie estime qu’un certain nombre de personnes, dans cette région frontalière avec la Suisse, sont susceptibles d’en posséder.


D’après les synthèses partielles, cette tuerie semble s’être déroulée en plusieurs actes, dont certains éléments ont été évoqués par le site Internet du Parisien. Dans un premier temps positionné en amont du parking menant à la route forestière, le tueur fait feu, vers 15 h 30, en direction d’une zone où se trouvaient réunis un cycliste français, Sylvain Mollier, un touriste britannique, Saad Al-Hilli, et sa fille aînée, Zainab, âgée de 7 ans.

Certes, on ne sait pas qui était visé en premier. Mais il paraît probable que cette famille d’origine irakienne installée dans la banlieue de Londres, en vacances dans la région, ne se serait pas garée sur le parking si le corps du cycliste, blessé par balles, était déjà couché sur le sol.

Le vélo de M. Mollier a été retrouvé à cet endroit. Cette bicyclette de course haut de gamme est estimée à plus de 5 000 euros, et son propriétaire n’était jamais venu à cet endroit. Son beau-père lui aurait conseillé cette zone, pourtant peu propice, pour effectuer sa sortie.

Près du vélo, les experts ont trouvé des fragments de l’arme, ce qui a permis de remonter jusqu’à son modèle. Des recherches très poussées sont en cours, notamment auprès du fabricant, pour tenter de retrouver les acheteurs. Cette découverte laisse également ouvertes les hypothèses. Comment l’arme a-t-elle chuté sur le sol, et pour quelles raisons ? Y a-t-il eu une bagarre avec l’une des victimes ? Le tueur l’a-t-il laissée s’échapper de sa main? Les investigations devront répondre à ces questions.


Les déclarations de Zainab, la fille aînée de la famille Al-Hilli, ont fourni un élément important pour saisir la suite des événements. Selon ses déclarations, elle se trouvait à l’extérieur du véhicule avec son père quand ce dernier lui a brutalement pris la main pour se diriger en courant vers la voiture stationnée en épi.

A ce stade, deux versions divergent. L’un des enquêteurs a indiqué au Monde que Saad Al-Hilli a reçu une balle dans le bas du dos alors qu’il regagnait en toute hâte sa place de conducteur. La trajectoire de la balle s’expliquerait par sa position penchée en avant afin d’éviter les coups de feu du tireur. Interrogé, le procureur d’Annecy a démenti, pour sa part, qu’il ait été blessé par balles à ce moment-là.

Les traces de pneus relevées sur le sol donnent la suite de l’action. Si la fille aînée paraît ne pas avoir pu monter dans la voiture, son père a effectué une brutale marche arrière pour placer son véhicule dans le sens de la marche et quitter les lieux.

L’examen médico-légal du corps du cycliste, qui a été retrouvé de l’autre côté du parking, atteste qu’il aurait été accroché par la voiture lorsqu’elle a reculé. Le corps de Sylvain Mollier porte, sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique. Ce mouvement expliquerait son éloignement par rapport à son vélo.


Lors de cette manœuvre du père Al-Hilli, des balles ont brisé la vitre arrière droite du break BMW et touché, selon les analyses, l’une des personnes qui s’y trouvaient. Car, pendant ce temps, la belle-mère, la femme et la deuxième fille de Saad Al-Hilli, Zeena, âgée de 4 ans, étaient assises sur les sièges arrière.

Zeena a indiqué que sa mère lui avait demandé de rester cachée dès les premiers coups de feu. Des bris de vitre ont été récupérés sur le sol et expertisés.

Après avoir verrouillé les portes, Saad Al-Hilli est tout de même parvenu à effectuer sa marche arrière. Mais, sous la pression de l’assaillant et des coups de feu, il a heurté le talus par l’arrière et les roues ont perdu leur adhérence, interdisant toute fuite.

Le tueur s’est, pendant la manœuvre, déplacé en même temps que la voiture. Il a tiré de manière continue. Les mouvements du break familial BMW lui ont fait manquer sa cible. Des balles ont été retrouvées dans le sous-bois, au-delà de la voiture, le long de la route qui repart vers Chevaline et Annecy.

Les synthèses de gendarmerie font alors état d’un deuxième temps fort. La voiture s’est immobilisée. Le tueur assassine cette fois-ci froidement ses occupants pris au piège dans l’habitacle du véhicule. Il les vise en pleine tête.

Les enquêteurs collecteront 25 douilles sur l’ensemble de la scène. Il lui a fallu faire usage de plusieurs chargeurs. Des doutes subsistent encore sur le sort réservé au cycliste à cette étape du drame. Ce dernier aurait, de nouveau, reçu plusieurs impacts alors qu’il gisait sur le sol après avoir été traîné par la voiture.


La phase sans doute la plus cruelle intervient lorsque le tireur constate qu’il n’a plus de munitions. L’examen des experts révèle que Zaina a été frappée au visage avec la crosse du P06 dans le but délibéré de l’achever. Elle avait, à ce stade, déjà été blessée par balle à l’épaule. “Une violence extrême, on peut dire qu’on s’est acharné sur elle”, avait simplement lâché publiquement le procureur d’Annecy. “Un massacre”, a confirmé un enquêteur.

Un événement inattendu semble avoir interrompu la sale besogne du tueur. Il a fui, laissant l’enfant, gravement blessée, titubant au milieu de ce chaos sanglant. A-t-il été prévenu par un complice qu’un autre cycliste s’apprêtait à arriver sur les lieux ? A-t-il, par lui-même, jugé qu’il devait quitter la zone ou aperçu une éventuelle menace ?

Vers 15 h 45, Zaina est retrouvée, totalement désorientée, par un cycliste britannique qui arrive sur avec son VTT. William Brett Martin, un Britannique d’origine néo-zélandaise, est un ancien de la Royal Air Force. Il prend rapidement conscience de la gravité de la situation. Il voit la petite fille s’effondrer sur le sol. Il a déclaré aux enquêteurs avoir tout d’abord déplacé les corps du cycliste et de Zaina, de peur que la voiture dont les roues tournaient encore ne les écrase. Puis il accède au tableau de bord de la voiture et coupe le moteur avant de partir chercher des secours, qui sont prévenus à 15 h 48.

Voir la vidéo Tuerie de Chevaline : Ça ressemblait vraiment à une scène d’Hollywood

Il a donc mis moins de quatre minutes pour effectuer ces opérations, ce qui dénote, a minima, un certain sang-froid. Son récit montre aussi la rapidité avec laquelle cette tuerie s’est déroulée. Peu après avoir passé le village de Chevaline, vers 15 h 15, sur son vélo, William Brett Martin affirme avoir été rejoint par Sylvain Mollier, qui s’est dirigé dans la même direction que lui et l’a rapidement distancé. A 15 h 15, les touristes britanniques prenaient encore, pour leur part, des photos dans un hameau sur la commune de Doussard.

Un tel minutage laisse les enquêteurs perplexes sur l’enchaînement des faits et leur cause. Face à la complexité de ce dossier hors normes, le procureur Maillaud, lâche, quant à lui, que “tout est possible”, avant d’ajouter : “J’espère juste qu’il ne s’agit pas d’une autre affaire Godard dont on n’aura jamais le fin mot.” Treize ans d’enquête n’ont jamais permis d’expliquer la disparition, en 1999, du docteur Yves Godard, de son épouse et de leurs deux enfants.

Des liens potentiels entre les Al-Hilli et Saddam Hussein

Les services secrets allemands auraient transmis, à travers le Bureau de lutte antiterroriste de la gendarmerie, des éléments sur des liens entre la famille de Saad Al-Hilli et la fortune de Saddam Hussein, selon une source proche de l’enquête sur la tuerie de Chevaline.

Des tensions seraient nées de l’éviction du père de Saad Al-Hilli de la liste des bénéficiaires de fonds appartenant à l’ex-dictateur irakien.

Le conflit entre les frères Al-Hilli, évoqué dans l’enquête, aurait porté sur cet héritage et non sur le seul legs paternel. La justice suisse a découvert que Saad Al-Hilli possédait un compte sur lequel se trouvait un million d’euros, sans pour autant faire de lien entre cette somme et l’Irak, pays d’origine de la famille.

“L’idée d’un héritage caché de Saddam Hussein relève du pur fantasme, assure l’un de ses avocats français, Emmanuel Ludot. La seule piste qui aurait du sens, ce sont les fonds déposés par le régime irakien dans les banques suisses dans le cadre de l’affaire Pétrole contre nourriture.” Interrogé par Le Monde, le procureur d’Annecy, Eric Maillaud, a répondu qu’il n’avait pas été “informé de l’arrivée de ce nouvel élément”.

Tuerie en Savoie
›Tuerie de Chevaline : les enquêteurs lancent un appel à témoins
›Tuerie de Chevaline : la survivante de 7 ans a vu un seul tueur
›La Suisse au cœur de l’enquête sur la tuerie de Chevaline
Édition abonnés Contenu exclusif
›Tuerie de Chevaline : un tueur seul, déterminé et d’une grande brutalitéInfographie

10-27-2012 at 13:11:02

@ Oui
“Most murders are in the relational sphere and are quite interesting. Is it common to take out a family as collateral damage? I can’t remember such a crime, however to kill the targeted person in rage and hate is already quite difficult. Suddenly confronted with a family and a child is of a higher order. After killing his target, he would run or somewhere in the timeline kill himself. None of this happened. To execute four persons you have to be hardened and trained as a soldier, mafia or mercenary.”

Lynda, you are thinking of a gentler time or are living in a peaceful place. Now it’s common for senseless violence, rage and hate to be all mixed up. Families killed by close or distant relatives, crimes of passion, and the killer may kill him or herself, or wait for police to do it, or flee – unpredictable. Then there are regular workplace shootings and random drive-by shootings, children & babies shot, maybe for gang reasons or just for fun.

10-27-2012 at 13:45:08

In regard to this article

If they even found parts of the pistol on the scene, there can be no doubt that it was either one of these
(The killer probably broke the gun whilst hitting Zainab over the head with it, because I really cannot see which parts could have been broken off that would still leave the pistol ready to fire).

The AHs and SM were together in that lay-by when the killer approached them coming downhill. IMHO, his is fairly conclusive evidence that the AHs at least were not followed to that lay-by (though SM might have been).

Why were they there together, SM, SAH and Zainab, with SAH and Zainab outside the car? Was this a prearranged meeting or did the AHs perhaps ask SM for directions? Given that SM was dragged by the BMW when it reversed, he must have been standing quite close to the car when the firing began.

10-27-2012 at 13:58:06

Interesting Le Monde article, but their timeline must be wrong, or the RAF man must have been overtaken by the family in the car somewhere along Route Forestiere.

10-27-2012 at 14:07:23

Here is another artcie I have been able to see before it goes to pay:

“Une enquête de très longue haleine” dans laquelle il faut s’armer de “patience” et tabler sur “un peu de chance”. Même si un rebondissement n’est jamais à exclure, c’est ainsi qu’Eric Maillaud, procureur de la République à Annecy, envisage le dossier du quadruple meurtre de Chevaline survenu le 5 septembre.

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Voir l’infographie Tuerie de Chevaline : un tueur seul, déterminé et d’une grande brutalité

Ce jour-là, Saad Al-Hilli, 50 ans, son épouse Iqbal, 47 ans, britanniques d’origine irakienne, et la mère de Mme Al-Hilli, Suhaila Al-Allaf, 74 ans, de nationalité suédoise, ont été tués par balles dans leur voiture sur une route forestière proche du lac d’Annecy où ils passaient des vacances.


Près de leur véhicule, mort, gisait Sylvain Mollier, cycliste français de 45 ans et père de famille. Agées de 7 et 4 ans, les filles du couple Al-Hilli ont survécu à la fusillade, mais l’aînée a été grièvement blessée à la tête.

Lire Tuerie de Chevaline: les secrets d’une scène de crime

Le procureur a démenti des informations parues dans la presse selon lesquelles M. Mollier a été tué le premier par un tireur “très mobile” sur la scène de crime. Pour le parquet d’Annecy, M. Mollier est donc toujours considéré comme une victime collatérale du drame.

“Il semble qu’il passait là par hasard et qu’il faisait demi-tour, car il s’était trompé par rapport à des indications qu’on lui avait données”, dit M. Maillaud.


Outre-Manche, où résidait la famille Al-Hilli, les investigations ne permettent pour l’heure de donner aucune orientation particulière à l’enquête. Un nombre de documents “assez extraordinaire”, selon M. Maillaud, a cependant été saisi au domicile de Saad Al-Hilli.

“M. Al-Hilli, qui était informaticien, scannait sa vie entière, y compris les cartes de vœux, explique le procureur, et les enquêteurs tentent d’exploiter ce monceau de documents en anglais, en arabe et en espagnol. Il faut tout lire.”

Le compte bancaire – ouvert à Genève au nom de leur père il y a une dizaine d’années – présente un solde créditeur d’environ 780 000 livres sterling, soit 960 000 euros, et les derniers mouvements sont antérieurs à la mort du titulaire du compte, décédé en 2011 en Andalousie.

La piste professionnelle – Saad Al-Hilli avait travaillé pour une société leader mondial des micro-satellites – n’a rien donné. Celle du pays d’origine de la famille (l’Irak) n’a pas encore été vraiment creusée.

Saad Al-Hilli s’était installé en Grande-Bretagne dans les années 1970. Son père aurait fui le régime de Saddam Hussein plus tardivement, dans les années 1980, en laissant tous ses biens sur place. “On en est encore à chercher des points d’entrée”, dit M. Maillaud.

De la commission rogatoire internationale lancée en Suède, enfin, il est ressorti que le frère de Mme Al-Hilli s’y trouvait hospitalisé dans un service psychiatrique au moment des faits. “Il l’est toujours, et on n’attend plus grand-chose de ce côté-là”, note Eric Maillaud.


Environ 650 personnes vivant ou travaillant entre le camping dans lequel la famille Al-Hilli a séjourné et le haut de la combe d’Ire, théâtre du crime, ont été auditionnées durant les trois premières semaines de l’enquête. Le numéro vert d’appel à témoins (0800-002-950) mis en place par les gendarmes a généré une cinquantaine d’auditions supplémentaires qui n’ont rien apporté de déterminant.

La recherche de plusieurs véhicules signalés par des témoins aux environs de la combe d’Ire le jour du drame est toujours en cours. S’il n’a pas été formellement identifié, le 4×4 vert recherché dès le début des investigations appartient, selon le parquet d’Annecy, à l’Office national des forêts (ONF) dont des agents opèrent dans le secteur.

La moto –signalée dès l’ouverture de l’enquête par le cycliste britannique qui a découvert le carnage et décrite par des témoins avec des précisions contradictoires (grosses sacoches pour les uns et top-case pour les autres) – n’a pas été retrouvée.

“Des gardes de l’ONF lui avaient demandé de faire demi-tour car elle n’avait rien à faire sur les sentiers forestiers, mais les enquêteurs ne connaissent ni sa marque ni sa couleur, et son pilote, qu’on aimerait interroger, ne s’est pas fait connaître”, précise M.Maillaud.

Par ailleurs, sur des clichés extraits de l’appareil photographique de Saad Al-Hilli et pris une demi-heure avant la tuerie à quelques kilomètres de la scène du crime, figurent les cinq membres de la famille dans des postures “détendues et souriantes”.


“Dans cette configuration, l’hypothèse d’un tueur isolé et psychiquement perturbé a repris de la vigueur”, estime le procureur. Les enquêteurs explorent cette piste en faisant le tour des hôpitaux psychiatriques français, italiens et suisses dans un rayon assez vaste autour du lieu du drame.

Ils recensent les personnes sous tutelle et sous curatelle ayant des antécédents de violence avec armes à feu, ou connues pour leur goût pour les armes à feu. Ils enquêtent au sein des associations de chasseurs et des clubs de tir. Sans résultat pour l’heure…

Une expertise acoustique, réalisée mercredi 17 octobre aux abords des lieux du crime, a démontré que certains témoins, qui prétendaient avoir entendu des coups de feu, n’étaient en réalité pas en position de les entendre. “Les échos de la montagne font qu’un son parfois inaudible à quelques centaines de mètres s’entend parfaitement à un kilomètre”, explique M. Maillaud.

L’opération a révélé que le cycliste britannique qui a donné l’alerte et a toujours déclaré n’avoir rien entendu se trouvait effectivement dans une zone où l’on ne pouvait les entendre.

“C’est rare dans ce type de dossier, conclut Eric Maillaud, mais les enquêteurs français comme les enquêteurs britanniques confient unanimement une absence de conviction personnelle.”

10-27-2012 at 14:16:47

@Lynda: Re: Le Monde

Lynda, thank you for this. The article has already gone to ‘pay’.

The investigators are then certainly going into all the questions we’ve been voicing.Not that I say that they are following us, but I am saying they are indeed not stupid and know their work.

Saturday,November 27

10-27-2012 at 14:23:12

@Peter : Re : Selon les journaux de SudPresse, un autre fait aurait été commis avec le même genre d’arme que celle utilisée pour tuer Xavier Baligant. Or ce type de fusil, un mousqueton, qui équipait l’infanterie suisse entre 1933 et 1957, est très rare. “Un autre fait a été signalé avec le même type d’arme qui a servi à abattre Xavier. Les enquêteurs travaillent là-dessus”, a confié Maître Dalne, l’avocat des parents de la victime à nos confrères.

Firearm used by Swiss army between ’33 and ’57. My head’s turning.

Thanks for drawing our attention to these two newspaper reports, Peter.

10-27-2012 at 14:24:53

@Pete.R. :Re French police and three magazines.

Interesting info, Pete. I did not know this. When I see a cop next I am going to have a good look.

10-27-2012 at 14:26:37

@Peter : re: William No-Tell.

I like this. Yes, I think whoever killed the Al-Hillis had done some shooting on a lonely road before. And unless he is apprehended will do so again. Soon.

10-27-2012 at 14:28:36

@bleb : re: no phone call, no sms.

A deadly chance encounter.

10-27-2012 at 14:30:47

I just want to tell you all that I am not planning to write a book about the Al-Hilli murders. I am certain that you are all much better qualified to do so.

10-27-2012 at 14:38:34

Very sad story for all victims!

That said, did EM realize the scenario which has been put forward on this blog needed to be confirmed or the official investigation would be leading from behind. The article does supply specific details to complete the scenario and answers many of our outstanding questions.

Zainab was not left behind but SAH took her by the hand to the car until he got hit in his back. He gets behind the wheel and chooses the option to put the car between the shooter and his daughter thereby hitting SM. A brave and frantic decision to try and defy destiny. Unfortunately the killer won and executed all involved. A very ugly scene and comes near a senseless act of terror.

As far as the timeline, what was the time the masons said they saw the SAH family pass and were greeted? The response services were at the scene at 16 hours? I recall the masons telling there was a time interval longer than an hour between these two events. For the killings to have taken place at 15:40, the SAH BMW Estate would have to have been in place for a longer period. The British cyclist BM would have started the climb just a few minutes past 15:00 hours. Therefore the timeline of the SAH family cannot be right.

Calling M. for his excel sheet …

10-27-2012 at 14:46:40

I’m only posting this as it apparently shows the house where the family photos were taken and that SM’s two boys lived with him in a semi, elsewhere says they lived with their mother and he lived in a big white house in the centre of the town?

It is The Sun, but an exclusive….

10-27-2012 at 15:07:03

Having followed the case from its beginning, my intuition tells me the following:
1. It’s a nutter case.
2. The Chevaline murders and the Xavier Baligant case are linked.
3. The killer is young, 20-35 years old and trained.
4. He’s collecting weapons and adores killer computer games, in which he uses the weapons he has in his collection.
5. Since he’s training in the virtual world, he doesn’t need to be a member of a shooting club.
6. He’s getting not frequently “the kick in the real world”, maybe “hunting season” is only once a year.
7. He hurts Sylvain Mollier first, then he shot on the running Saad Al-Hilli and his daughter, only hurting them. After having killed everyone in the car and shot Sylvain Mollier dead, he ran out of ammo. This explains why he tried to kill Zainab by hitting her and did not attack Brett Martin, but left the scene.
8. It is a major problem that M. Maillaud is not speaking any foreign language and, somehow, “franchouillard à souhait”.

10-27-2012 at 15:45:19


The masons said they saw the family at 14:40.


Yes, some newspapers maintain that his two boys from his former marriage lived with him, others that their mutter, his ex-wife, woke them up to tell them that their father had been killed (indicating that they lived with her).

I find the latter more probable.

10-27-2012 at 15:50:04

Sorry, mutter = mother, to many languages at play here 🙂

10-27-2012 at 16:51:35

@Lars Ha ha for mutter. But we understood what you meant.

10-27-2012 at 16:55:21

@Lynda : Re: The house where the family took photos.

First time I see the house. My first thought is: ‘oh, all those spiders in the summer!’

10-27-2012 at 16:56:37

SM being dragged by the car has been proposed, was it you M ? Which means killer didn’t touch the victim, secondly it would explain why BM thought it had been accident, body was scuffed, clothes no doubt moved, shredded and for the lack of blood as this was no doubt further up the clearing. See Max Magenta photo.

@ Inconnu, what virtual game would allow someone to choose the type of weapon, especially such a ‘collectors piece’ ?

@Lars, the children of SM may well have had a bedroom in each house and the ‘care’ was shared, I see this often here, the separated parents not too far apart to enable normal schooling, which this being a Wednesday they were unlikely to have school in the afternoon.

10-27-2012 at 16:57:39

@Oui : Re: Sad story for the victims.

Think of the killer. What a twisted individual this must be. Does he sleep at night?

10-27-2012 at 17:33:54

10.27.2012 17:29

I have read all of both threads and like the quiet atmosphere and the many astute comments.

I too think this is a serial killer crime, but a crime in which racism and the hatred of outsiders may play a part. If you saw the film “Deliverance” this crime may be a French version of the anger shown towards “outsiders”.

In an early article I seem to remember that the women were wearing traditional type clothing for Iraqui women. If, while standing in front of the pretty French house while taking pictures, someone passed by and became enraged over these people invading the space of the owner of the house, it could be he took matters into his own hands, and followed them to the layby. He could have been on a bike and simply went to the layby through the woods.

In this scenario his target was the family, but his initial shots at Zeinab and Mr Al Hilli were interrupted by Sylvain, who the killer then disabled, but did not kill. After shooting the Hilli family, he returns to dispatch Sylvain.

There is very little time elapsed before RAF Martin appears. The question I have is how does he have the luger and all the bullets if he has spontaneously seen the Hilli family taking pictures and they are killed so shortly afterwards?

Could he have been stalking them ever since they arrived at the first camping place?

The Drummond case also had overtones of “outsiders” entering an area where they shouldn’t be.

10-27-2012 at 18:07:52

@Inconnu – I’ve ‘virtually’ answered myself :

Lots of them using a Luger P08 ……..

10-27-2012 at 18:23:18

From tab

Fantastic new/more info. I will dig in later. No time now. Have to translate the French stuff … cu later

– M

10-27-2012 at 18:30:06

@Peachtree : You are very welcome here. Do let us have your views regularly.

I saw the film ‘Deliverance’ yes. It comes up on TV often. Strange that the Al-Hilli shooting reminds you of this film. No one here has made that comparison, but yes, now that you have mentioned it, I can see the similarity.

Well, as the killer was armed, it could not have been a spontaneous shooting spree but was a premeditated one.

With the Drummond case, they were the ones who should not have been where they were. They were on private land where they planned to camp for the night. Not that I am saying that that was reason to kill them of course.

10-27-2012 at 19:02:18


You might very well be right about the two sons. I have noticed several times only during this case, that the journalists get the answer they ask for, i.e. depending how they formulate the question.
Journalist 1: – Do the sons live with his ex-wife?
Local p. 1: – Yes!
Journalist 2: – Do the sons from his previous marriage live with him?
Local p. 2: -Yes!

Conclusion: The sons share their living between the father and the mother.

10-27-2012 at 19:13:26


This was article with timeline and some witness statements. Couldn’t get a adequare translation. Also the post by your CBrett.

Tuerie de Chevaline : les soixante dernières minutes samedi 15 septembre 2012

LE JDD ENQUETE – Que s’est-il passé entre 14h40, quand la BMW des Al-Hilli traverse le village de Chevaline, et 15 h 48, l’appel au Codis d’Annecy, le mercredi 5 septembre? Le JDD a retrouvé les témoins de la route du massacre.

lundi 22 octobre 2012 09h16 Par LE FOUINEUR

10-27-2012 at 19:16:50

@Lars : re: journalists getting the answer they ask for.

Lars, they can also twist the reply to receive the reply they wish for. All of us here can do that.

10-27-2012 at 19:22:34

@Peachtree, regarding having a weapon and ammo on him, could it be that he has a love of guns, always carries one around with him, not necessarily as defence but to make him feel ‘cock sure’.

Probably a loner with no children, maybe no job, it was a Wednesday afternoon, although of course he could be a shift worker at the Cézus plant where Mollier worked – so SM would have been able to identify him.

The spot where it has taken place, now we know that all cars have to stop there and the cyclist would have to dismount to go over the barrier, in other words a natural blocade, which our man is fully aware of.

10-27-2012 at 19:33:13


lundi 22 octobre 2012 09h16 Par LE FOUINEUR”

The comment isn’t correct as BM arrived earlier than 15:48, todays articles say he was there for about 4 minutes, then he would have gone back down the route, encountered PD then back up then back down before PD made the call at 15:48.

It could knock 10 minutes off the timing of his cycle ride up the route, seeing SM go quickly ahead of him.

10-27-2012 at 19:50:24

10.27.2012. 19:43

In today’s Le Monde article you can read “Lors de cette manœuvre du père Al-Hilli, des balles ont brisé la vitre arrière droite du break BMW et touché, selon les analyses, l’une des personnes qui s’y trouvaient. ”

I am a bit confused what journalists call right “droite” och left “gauche” in their descriptions. I would prefer sitting in the car as viewpoint. Then I think “la vitre arrière gauche” fits better with the rest of the description. But what do they mean?

10-27-2012 at 19:55:31

Re: The time the mason’s saw the Al Hilli’s

It is possible the masons saw the Al Hilli’s at 14.40 as they say and the Al Hilli’s then doubled back towards Anand and Doussard on Route du Moulin. Took their photographs and then returned along Route du Moulin and then climbed the Combe D’Ire.

An alternative explanation could be that the builders lied to the press; perhaps they wanted to maintain appearances of working harder than they actually were. This would seem to be supported by the article Parisien 13/09/2012 which said:

“Si l’heure exacte à laquelle la famille Al-Hilli a quitté le camping du Solitaire du Lac, à Saint-Jorioz, le 5 septembre n’est pas connue, deux ouvriers maçons qui restaurent un chalet à Chevaline, au 857, route de la Combe-d’Ire, assurent les avoir vus passer « vers 15 heures, peut-être un peu plus tard ».”

Re: Time the “Happy Family” photograph taken.

My guess is the “Happy Family” photographs were taken between 15.00 and 15.15hrs. The position of the house in the photographs is as previously identified – by the bridge, nearly opposite the post office in Doussard. (if it is the same as identified by “The Sun”)

Why? My idea is that this piece of information came to light by the press asking questions, buying drinks in the bars or cafes of Doussard. Probably got a response along the lines of, “Oh they had pictures of the house on the corner by the road going up to Anand. The police asked if we’d seen the family around there between 15.00 – 15.15.” The press have then extrapolated to give themselves a precise time of 15.15 for the final photograph.

10-27-2012 at 20:19:57

@Lars: Re; droite ou gauche

I think by ‘droite’ is meant the right side of the vehicle when standing behind the vehicle facing the driver. If my description makes sense.

10-27-2012 at 20:36:46

@Shushu 3012 the year this one is solved!

10-27-2012 at 20:36:48


Yes, that was what I also thought, same view as the driver. But then I think “la vitre arrière gauche” would fit the rest of the description better. If we include the described movements of the car, it would otherwise place the shooter very close to the car (since otherwise he will be in the shruberry), but on the opposite side from the driver. Why would he then aim at the rear side window if he is so close. Seems peculiar.

10-27-2012 at 20:40:37

The French State’s FRANCE2 in their 8 p.m. news covered the Le Monde article of today. France2’s reporter in Annecy summed up that the gendarmes have no firm clue as to the identity of the killer/killers.
You may still be able to watch a rerun of the news (anchor tonight was Julian Bugier) France2

From what Le Monde reported I think it was a real massacre – a terrible scene. I cannot understand how Saad could have run to the car, jumped in and tried to speed off while his child was outside beside the car. Surely he would not have done that. Unless he thought to start the car and was shouting for her to jump in.

10-27-2012 at 20:44:13

@ Linda re : the cyclist would have to dismount to go over the barrier, in other words a natural blocade, which our man is fully aware of. ””’ Can you please explain about this barrier you have mentioned several times . could you pls tell me where is this barrier i have not seen any

10-27-2012 at 20:47:20



AH himself makes it to the driver seat

While Killer X shoots at both and hitting Zainab in the shoulder, she falls and never makes it inside

Of course no father would leaves his child. He didn’t but she didn’t make it. Perhaps THAT saved her life or what is left of it

10-27-2012 at 20:53:37

@Marilyn, he was probably shouting to her to get in, but was killed before he had the chance to help her into the car.

More about “droite et gauche”:
I think the journalists and we need a drawing describing the movements on the crime scene to get all right and left right (sic!).

10-27-2012 at 20:57:35

“@bleb : re: no phone call, no sms.

A deadly chance encounter.”
I know most people can’t be separated from their mobile phones!

I also know if I was trying to do something secretly I would not use a mobile phone at any stage for anything connected with that business. No traced calls, no location tracking therefore more secret.

So for me lack of mobile phone / sms contact does not necessarily imply there was no pre-arranged meeting.

10-27-2012 at 20:58:35

“@bleb : re: no phone call, no sms.

A deadly chance encounter.”
I know most people can’t be separated from their mobile phones!

I also know if I was trying to do something secretly I would not use a mobile phone at any stage for anything connected with that business. No traced calls, no location tracking therefore more secret.

So for me lack of mobile phone / sms contact does not necessarily imply there was no pre-arranged meeting.

10-27-2012 at 21:09:45

@Lynda, thx very much for posting the articels. Btw, I did see the TF1 nes with Chevaline too.

In short some observations:

– 1 Killer X

– 1 old ‘Luger’, with 25 bullets fired

– Killer seemed OUT OF AMMO (the 3×8+1=25 reference)

– AH made the ‘reverse turn’ (skid marks and glass reference)

– SM’s body was dragged (yes Lynda, it was me who one time had that crazy idea:)

– Killer stopped and escaped suddenly

I think Killer X must have seen BM coming up, and, realising he was now OUT OF AMMO, he had to escape. He could handle a little girl, but not a sportif big guy (BM)

Anyway, with all these ‘facts’ now set into stone we can further investigate the ‘killing sequence’ (+ postitions) and the motive which perhaps explains the sequence

Let the Sudoku continue:)

10-27-2012 at 21:10:55

@ all could you please tell me where is this { 857, route de la Combe-d’Ire} it doesn’t exist on google map there is (Route forestiere Domaine de la combe d’ire ) but on that route there is no house with number 857 is very confusing all the things that they write in those news

10-27-2012 at 21:15:35

10.27.2012. 21:06

It has been quite an eventful day! (see all the comments above)

When I reread Peter’s crime statistics from this morning I think that we can assume that this perpetrator was really out to kill, both the family members and the cyclist. He didn’t want to incapacitate or scare them, he was determined to see them dead.
It is then still a kind of mystery why he didn’t make sure that also the older girl was dead (the younger one he obviously missed). I don’t want to describe any horrifying methods, but he could surely have killed her, even if he was out of ammunition or the weapon did not function any more.

10-27-2012 at 21:22:48

@Lars: Re : Shooter close to car and right or left window.

Either France2 or Le Monde reported that the killer was moving around the vehicle because bullet shells were lying right round the car.

Lars, I just reread what Le Monde reported. It said that when the car (the BMW) was in movement bullets (des balles – plural) hit the rear right window (la vitre – singular) and hit one of the two women sitting in the rear.

Now I’m wondering again if there were not more than two people shooting.

I am sure the London Sundays will have a new story tomorrow.

10-27-2012 at 21:24:44

@bleb : Re mobile phones.

I also won’t use a mobile phone if I want the call not to be detected. I also won’t use my landline or my PC. So what to do? In our time of electronics we can have no secrets anymore.

10-27-2012 at 21:25:37

@Lars : Needing drawing.

If I were an editor I’ll get someone to do a sketch.

10-27-2012 at 21:25:38

Btw, I’m missing there ‘SM blood on AH trouser’ reference in the article as wel as in the TF1 news

In the TF1 vid SM was ‘arriving’, but this is incompatible with the ‘blood spats on trouser’

10-27-2012 at 21:26:34

@M : Re: Saving the life of Zainab.

You are probably right. Had Zainab been in the car she would be dead too now.

10-27-2012 at 21:30:38


the pole that acts as a barrier is lying on the floor to the right of a photo, I’ll try to find it again and post the link.

10-27-2012 at 21:30:41


I think it should be: 857 chemin rural dit de la grande combe, Chevaline
that is the last house on that road

10-27-2012 at 21:33:53

As I scene it now (but I need the ‘blood spats’ thing explained):

– AH’s are parked on the right (far) side of the lay-by

– SM is arriving

– Killer X appears from the woods into the MIDDLE of the lay-by

– Killer X shoots SM, SM falls from his bike

– AH gets in the car (Zainab doesn’t make it)

– Killer X fires towards BMW, hits Zainab and acr (glass reference)

– AH does a ‘reversed half arc’

– Half way the BMW picks up SM’s body and drags it along

– AH finishes his ‘reversed arc’

– Killer X was continuosly shooting at BMW, misses and bullets were found in dir Chevaline (line center lay-by – last-part-of-reverse-arc of BMw

– AH / BMW gets stuck

– Killer X walks up to BMW and kilsl 3 inside

– Killer X headshots SM

– Killer X deals with Zainab (other/far side)

– Killer X has from there a straight view dir. Chevaline and spots BM

– Killer X escapes

– 1 minute later BM arrives

(only problem is the ‘SM blood on AH’ reference … is this really true??)

10-27-2012 at 21:42:55

If you ever employed French workmen, even good ones, their lunch (at home or liquid in the local tabac – ends at 14:30) so they arrive after that ! Also, they said they thought it might be the BRITISH owners of the house they were working on when they saw the Al-Hilli car ! They were also using a hammer drill to remove the rendering, so cyclist not seen, BM, but SM went up the route from the other access, route de Moulin not passing them.

I suspect under questioning they have revised their answer to around 15:00 or a bit later, which it appears it was if the timing of the photos is more or less correct. I don’t believe the Al-Hillis doubled back on themselves.

@Marilyn I also saw the report on France 2, something I find unacceptable is that Le Monde are claiming a exclusive, access to be paid when the article concerns a crime and the PUBLIC PROSECUTOR.

10-27-2012 at 21:52:49


I agree with you on the scenario.
The blood on Mr al-Hilli could be the result of the cyclist been shot first (if it is correct).
I still have a problem with this scenario; that these people stood there talking, and the killer rushes forward with the intention to kill all (see above).


The more so when Le Monde was given exclusive access to “la dynamique de la scène de crime” by the gendarmerie.

10-27-2012 at 22:41:42

10.27.2012 22:34

If we believe that this scenario is correct, Max, then the killer, at least for a couple of seconds, most have had his attention on the cyclist, aiming and shooting.

That means that he could not concentrate on what the family in the car was doing. What if the father had reversed the car in the other direction, end towards the “barrier”, front towards Chevaline, then full speed forward?

And still the killer seems so intent to kill them all, it doesn’t really add up…

10-27-2012 at 22:45:22


SM blood on AH must point to -> SM close to SH

If that really is the case, we have 2 important questions:

1. WHY was SM close to AH??
2. WHY did Killer X open fire (only?) when SM was close to AH?

Because they both could point at a ‘meeting’ with Killer X ‘preventing’ this. So with this blood business there is the ‘risk’ of running into this ‘meeting’ thing again:)

10-27-2012 at 22:53:07

The Lynda post also made me think

‘Selon ses (Zainab) déclarations, elle se trouvait à l’extérieur du véhicule avec son père quand ce dernier lui a brutalement pris la main pour se diriger en courant vers la voiture stationnée en épi.’

So AH suddenly took Zainab with force to the car. (with Zainab not aware of happenings??)

It is as if AH already ‘saw’ something before the shooting started which he didn’t like and therefore was already ‘on the run’

Say AH was indeed having a meeting, a ‘secret’ meeting. And suddenly AH sees a man coming out of the woods. AH would INSTANTLY know something was wrong … then the Zainab statement would fit

God, those little details:)

10-27-2012 at 22:55:52

@Lars: Re : Peter’s crime statistics.

I agree with you on Peter’s crime statistics that this perpetrator was out to kill. He probably thought that Zainab was dead. She might have passed out at some stage and he thought she was dead.

10-27-2012 at 22:57:15

@Lynda: Re: Barrier

Please Lynda if you can find it. I also need to see the photo again. Thanks.

10-27-2012 at 22:57:16


But it could still be a casual meeting, asking for information about road, as someone suggested above.

But if you are standing there in the shrubbery, seeing in front of you 3 grown-ups in a car and a man on a bike, and you have the intent to kill them all. And all you have is a rather old and weak gun. How do you do it?

10-27-2012 at 23:00:10

thank you Lars and Lynda for your replies @ all as i said before the blood on AH trouser is because BM was full of blood of SM when he turned off the engine must have dropped from his hand to AH trouser …now regarding the nutter even if it was a crime of passion or a nutter could you please explain the gathering of these 3 highly qualified each in their own field at the same time and the same place in a road that barely is recognized good for a car and cyclist this road is not a habitual road that someone would take for sightseeing or cycling ??????????

10-27-2012 at 23:01:22

@M: Re: your timeline.

Your timeline is great. I can picture the scene. But can you now work out the rest of the scenario. Killer X escaped how? If we can work this out, we will solve the murder. Oh gosh! I just thought of something … no, I am not going to say it, but there is just one more person at the murder scene …

10-27-2012 at 23:02:03

@Lars. Good questions:)

To me it sure seems like Killer X was somehow ‘waiting’ for SM. But then he quickly killed all.

A ‘reall nutter’ could have started killing the AH’s just before (say 2 minutes). WHY did SM have to enter the scene to seemingly trigger the events???

And if SM was the target. WHY the collaterals?

There is something deeply mysterious about this case that still in in the dark. And I think the ‘secret’ is to be found through SM!

If not, then only the ‘nutter’ is a valid option for me

10-27-2012 at 23:03:24

@Lynda. Re: Le Monde’s pay site.

Well, it’s Le Monde … No doubt tomorrow the London Sundays will have whatever Le Monde had today so we will be able to read it without having to pay.

10-27-2012 at 23:06:52

@shushu. Ah you made that remark before. Good remark. SM blood on AH comes from BM turning of the engine.

That is (if true, bu it is compatible with the fact) great! Thx!

10-27-2012 at 23:07:17


The location where the masons were working is here – link to map.

Next to the chapel in Chevaline is the home of Sylvie Lacoeur and where the Sky News interview was taped. The white car escaped via a different route to the village of Arnand, Doussard en route to Annecy.

Photo – Chapelle de Chevaline, avec vue sur le lac d’Annecy

10-27-2012 at 23:07:23

@Inconnu Re: @Marilyn: “So I thought that the two of you discuss firearms in an intelligent father and son conversation ”
Q: “How do You consider a Luger 08 (or 06) ?”
A: “It’s awkward & shitty”
Q: “so what’s the point of using it in your game ?”
A: “It gives Bonus points”.

I wish to point out that we respect one another on this site. We’ve had no arguments, no harsh words. You come here today as ‘Inconnu’ and you immediately make trouble. I further wish to point out that we do not use bad language on this site.

Please, go away. You are no longer welcome here.

I am leaving your message on and my reply to you, so that all can read this exchange, but you are no longer part of this site.

10-27-2012 at 23:07:33

\@ Marilyn yes i know who you mean but we don’t hear anymore about him he just vanished nobody talks about him

10-27-2012 at 23:12:08

So, if I take the ‘shush solution’ for the blood, then there is NO need for SM being close to AH, and hence there is no urgent need to think of a ‘meeting’

*sigh of relief*

Remains the impression that SM triggered the shooting and was shot first but KillerX somehow found it necessary to ‘collatral’ the AH’s???

@Marilyn. If Killer X was ‘local’ and I guess he was, then his escape does not bother me. He escaped. Period. (prolly first by foot, towards other transport or even solely by foot)

10-27-2012 at 23:13:09

@Oui thanks i thought you might be on the site now you usually come late in the evening could anybody explain why these 3 people and expert in their range of work which is also very sensitive job should come to this place at the same time 2 from UK and 1 local ?????

10-27-2012 at 23:16:07

@ all a Question again who thinks that the murder in belgium EXXON was a retaliation to this murder ??????

10-27-2012 at 23:19:27

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins
“@Oui : Re: Sad story for the victims.
Think of the killer. What a twisted individual this must be. Does he sleep at night?”

Though this killing sounds like personal rage or a psycho or an assassination gone wrong, there are random killers, especially the younger generation, who could sleep very well, having accomplished their goal. For some, there is not even great excitement or adrenaline, just something to do. Perhaps brag to their friends or better, have a friend video the deed.

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins
@bleb : Re mobile phones.
“I also won’t use a mobile phone if I want the call not to be detected. I also won’t use my landline or my PC. So what to do? In our time of electronics we can have no secrets anymore.”

We must all use couriers as AQ does, but even that didn’t help Osama as they tracked his courier. Leave your secret messages in pumpkins, like spies did in old times.

10-27-2012 at 23:20:24

I was going to quit smoking but since this project my smoking has doubled i think i will dye before i found out who killed these unfortunate people 🙁

10-27-2012 at 23:21:49

@M : Re: the meeting with Killer X

Max, just when we think it’s clear, it becomes complicated again.

So, from today’s Le Monde and FRANCE2 we now know that SM and AH were shot at around the same time. Therefore it was not that SM cycled into the killing and as witness had to be killed too. This, in any case, was how I understood it to have been. We also know that Saad was still alive and in his car when SM was already on the ground, shot, and perhaps dead. The reports do not stipulate whether he was dead when he got caught under the wheels of the BMW. His autopsy would have shown whether the injury caused when he was hit by the car was before or after death. EM does not say.

Such a scenario – Saad and SM standing alongside the car – points to a meeting between the two. Or … oh there are so many ors …

10-27-2012 at 23:22:48

… bed …

10-27-2012 at 23:27:26

VIDEO of Sky News reporter at murder scene points towards south where the barricade is laid on the side of the road. The sign indicates no passage for cars and motorbikes. Beyond the barrier is route to Parc de Bauges and Col de Chérel. At 100m there is a very small track which can be used for a terrain bike to double back to route towards Arnand.

10-27-2012 at 23:29:24


I think that the sensitiveness of, at least, Mr al-Hilli’s work has been grossly exaggerated. As I wrote above I have the same kind of profession and I do not consider me, or any of my colleagues, to be a possible victim of murder because of that.

10-27-2012 at 23:31:06

@Marilyn, Shushu

I have saved the photo to my computer but can’t trace it on the internet. Two things – if there was no barrier in place, just a sign saying no vehicles, it would have been easier for AH to escape away from the gunman to go uphill, tarmac continues but that would have meant leaving Zainab, both I and Lars believe he was trying to put the car between the two.

Secondly, I don’t know what it will bring, I have an American friend who is an ex-American Airlines pilot, now an examiner on International flights, mostly from New York to Germany, I have asked him about his training, his sangfroid and any gun training/gun in cockpit that may now be in place since 9/11. So, that brings us full circle to our ex-pilot, your missing man.

What I find hard to believe is that the Forestry vehicle occupants that stopped the motorcycle to warn the conductor he was not allowed where he was, can’t describe anything about it – they are not telling the truth.

10-27-2012 at 23:38:35


Nope, AH and Zainab were NOT standing next to the car. Because from Zainabs statement we know they did RUN towards the car. Hence they were further from the (parked) car.

Think of this:

SM was hit a few times (5?) but AH, running towards the car, was only hit 1(?) time

Perhaps SM was still biking, but certainly KillerX was some distance from SM when he opened fire on SM, hitting him 5(?) times.

But that makes him more or less out of ammo of the first clip (8). He has to reload while AH is already running towards the BMW.

AH was hit 1(?) time. Was is perhaps the last bullet of the first clip or the hailstorm of the second clip of 8 which KillerX fired at the BMW.

As the ‘Lynda’ post tells, bullets were found dir. Chevaline. Those were bullets from the 2nd clip I think. If that is the case, Killer X opened fire with his second clip probably DURING AH’s ‘reversed half arc’

So by calculating back, AH’s body shot prolly was from thelast bullet of the first clip while he was on the run.

Now, AH has bad luck. Although KillerX’s 2nd clip is empty. AH’s BMW is stuck. Givin KillerX enough time (while moving towards the BMW) to reload and headshot AH.

The remaining 6 bullets for the women and finally the dragged but not dead(?) SM

… sees BM/beats Zainab … etc. etc.

10-27-2012 at 23:46:53


It’s elementary my dear Watson. The forensics of the case, when looking under a microscope one can see the difference between a drop of blood and a spetter of blood coming from the victim standing nearby when the bullet strikes.

10-27-2012 at 23:51:30

I have not caught up with all the French articles yet. But how about the BMW slows to let SM pass as a matter of courtesy. SM pulls into Martinet for a drink and rest, it’s the halfway point in his cycle ride. The BMW then pulls up and SAH and ZAH get out. SAH is fanatical about bikes himself (remember the tandem etc) and goes over to SM to chat about bikes. The gunman appears from the trees towards the rear of the car park and starts shooting, hits SM and blood splatters over SAH’s pants……..

Back later after catching up.

10-27-2012 at 23:52:38


So what is it in this case. A bullet ‘drop’ or a bullet ‘spetter’?


For some time ago

‘Police officers and gendarmes carry three full magazines, one in the pistol and two spares.’

If find this so elegant!! (3×8+1 is full loadout)

Somebody said ‘old habits never die’ … now wouldn’t it be great if KillerX gave away some clue through this:)

An ‘old gun’ and ‘old habits’ …

10-28-2012 at 00:02:50

@Pete R.

Nice thought but I think we are starting ot ‘overlook’ a detail.

Say the AH’s were there for pleasure. WHY didn’t the women get out of the car for a bit of frsh air??

Why were only AH and Zainab outside the car?

Perhaps the following variant

AH’s going up to Martinet meet a ‘dead end’. Park, and AH and Zainab get out to read the sign/entrance. They see SM coming and go to him to ask’ what is beyond the sign?’

This is the ‘casual’ meeting of Lars … good point Lars!:)

If KillerX now opens fire on SM, it can explain the blood

10-28-2012 at 00:05:54

I found this on Craig Murray site which is very interesting i taught to share it with all of you : .

Okay, I think I have the link Chevaline was a project codename to improve the penetrability of the warheads used by the British Polaris nuclear weapons system. This was the first submarine-based British nuclear weapons system.

In June of this year Iran announced it was planning to develop a nuclear-powered submarine.

Uranium-zirconium alloy fuels were used in the early US nuclear submarine programs, and zirconium alloys were used to clad the reactors powering them.

Al-Hilli has been credited as designing the galley kitchen of the new Airbus.

Could both be targets for designing a weaponised nuclear submarine? Mollier the reactor, Al-Hilli the actual interiors?

10-28-2012 at 00:34:00

@ Oui my dear Holmes BM didn’t break the window gently therefore the blood must have spattered on AH pants i’m not talking about a drop of blood it was with a force that his hand went into that car

10-28-2012 at 00:34:11

@Shushu with this link you’ll be able to see the number of people employed in the locality and metal business, also what the nature of the business is. It has been said that SM was a Senior Production Line Manager,not a nuclear scientist.

Press review on Sky, front page of ? carries story of Al-Hilli, will be back !

10-28-2012 at 00:37:19
10-28-2012 at 00:52:10

Is sleep just as evasive as solving the sudoku puzzle of the Haute-Savoie Chevaline killings?
Watch this documentary, I can guarantee you’ll stay awake for at least another half hour. Enjoy …

Tuerie en Haute-Savoie. Un massacre qui rappelle l’affaire Dominici

Good night! 28-10-2012 00:50am CET

10-28-2012 at 01:00:58

00:01 28/10/12

Google translation to something akin to English of La Monde article posted by Lynda:

The main steps of the slaughter of Horses, committed on September 5 south of Lake Annecy (Haute-Savoie), are now known. According to the evidence of partial syntheses forwarded to the Directorate of the Gendarmerie Nationale, which had access to the World, “the dynamics of the scene” has been identified by investigators, even if all the scientific and technical expertise have not yet been given to two judges in charge of the case.

See graphics Slaughter of Horses: a single killer, determined and great brutality

The is pleased to offer you reading this article usually reserved for subscribers Enjoy all the articles for the by subscribing from 1 € / month | Discover edition subscribers

Four people were killed, three members of a British family and a French rider. These crimes have caused considerable emotion in France and Britain, in terms of their violence and mystery that endures to their cause.


The dynamics of the scene is surrounded today “has confirmed to the world the prosecutor Annecy, Eric Maillaud. The latter, however, insisted that he “still many unknowns, such as, for example, the order in which these people were shot, and no track is, to date, privileged.”

According to a source close to the investigation, the science can not, for the moment, “to determine in the short time that separated each death, if the cyclist was killed before or after the member British family; any scenario on this issue is based on assumptions. ”

Read Slaughter of Horses: the Iraq shooting clubs local investigators on leads

If justice is not able to certify the target of the killer, investigators welcome power, now rely on an understanding of the scene corroborated by independent appraisers. They therefore consider that the shooter was alone and did not use only one weapon, P06, version 7.65 of P08, Luger type. She was staffing in the Swiss army in the 1920s and 1930s. The professional killers do not use this type of weapon. It is now more subject to collection, and the police believed that a number of people in the border region with Switzerland, are likely to possess.


According to the partial syntheses, the killing seems to have taken place in several acts, some of which were mentioned by the website Parisien. Initially positioned upstream of the park road leading to the forest, the killer shot, 15 to 30 h in the direction of an area where a cyclist were gathered French, Sylvain Mollier, a British tourist, Saad Al-Hilli and his eldest daughter, Zainab, aged 7.
Certainly, we do not know who was first referred. But it seems probable that this family of Iraqi origin settled in the suburbs of London, on vacation in the area, would not parked in the parking lot if the rider’s body, wounded by gunfire, was already lying on the ground.
Mr Mollier bike was found at this location. This bicycle racing high-end is estimated at more than 5000 euros, and its owner never came here. His stepfather had advised him that area, however inauspicious to perform its release.

Near the bike, experts have found fragments of the weapon, which was traced back to its model. Extensive research is underway, including from the manufacturer to try to find buyers. This discovery also leaves open assumptions. How the weapon she fell on the ground, and why? There was a fight with one of the victims? The killer was he allowed to escape from his hand? Investigations will answer these questions.


Statements of Zainab, the eldest daughter of the family Al-Hilli, provided an important element to capture the events. According to his statement, it was outside of the vehicle with his father when the latter suddenly took her hand to lead running to the car parked on the cob.

At this stage, two versions differ. One of the investigators told the World that Saad Al-Hilli was shot in the lower back as he returned hastily place driver. The trajectory of the ball can be explained by its position leaning forward to avoid the shots the shooter. Asked the prosecutor denied Annecy, for his part, he was shot in that time.

Tire tracks found on the ground give the result of the action. If the eldest daughter does not seem to be able to get in the car, his father made a sudden reverse to put the vehicle in the direction of travel and leave.

The forensic examination of the body of the cyclist, who was found on the other side of the park, shows that he was caught by the car when it fell. The body of Sylvain Mollier door on its side of the draft marks part of the chest. This movement would explain his distance from his bike.


During this maneuver father Al-Hilli, bullets shattered the rear window and right break BMW hit, according to the analysis, one of the people who were there. Because during this time, the stepmother, the woman and the second daughter of Saad Al-Hilli, Zeena, 4 years old, were sitting on the rear seats.

Zeena said that his mother had asked him to remain hidden from the first shots. Of broken glass were recovered on the ground and appraised.

After locking the doors, Saad Al-Hilli is still able to perform its reverse. But under pressure from the assailant and shots, he hit the slope and the rear wheels have lost their grip, preventing leakage.

The killer during the maneuver, moved along the car. He fired continuously. The movements of the BMW family break made him miss his target. Bullets were found in the undergrowth beyond the car along the road again towards Annecy and Horses.

Syntheses of police state are then a second highlight. The car is immobilized. The killer murders this time coldly occupants trapped in the vehicle cabin. He is the head.

Investigators collect 25 sockets on the entire scene. He had to use multiple chargers. There are still doubts about the fate of the cyclist at this stage of the drama. This would, again, received several hits as he lay on the ground after being dragged by the car.


Phase probably the cruelest occurs when the shooter finds he has no ammunition. The expert review revealed that Zaina was hit in the face with the butt of P06 in a deliberate attempt to complete it. She had at this stage already been shot in the shoulder. “An extreme violence, we can say that is hard on her,” was just released publicly Attorney Annecy. “A massacre,” confirmed an investigator.

An unexpected event seems to have stopped the dirty work of the killer. He fled, leaving the child severely injured, stumbling amid the bloody chaos. He was warned by an accomplice that another cyclist was about to arrive on the scene? He, by himself, felt he had to leave the area or saw a potential threat?

15 to 45 h, Zaina is found, totally disoriented by a British cyclist who arrives with his ATV. William Brett Martin, a British-born New Zealand, is a former Royal Air Force. It quickly realize the gravity of the situation. He sees the girl collapsed on the floor. He told investigators that he first moved the body of the cyclist and Zaina, lest the car with the wheels turning yet not crushed. Then accesses the dashboard of the car and cut the engine before leaving for help, who are warned to 15 h 48.

See Video Slaughter of Horses: It really looked like a scene from Hollywood

It has taken less than four minutes to perform these operations, reflecting, at least, a certain coolness. His story also shows the speed with which the killings took place. Shortly after passing the village of Horses, 15 to 15 hours on the bike, William Brett Martin says he was joined by Sylvain Mollier, who headed in the same direction as him and quickly distanced. At 15 h 15, the British tourists were still on, for their part, photos in a hamlet in the town of Doussard.

Such timing leaves investigators puzzled about the sequence of events and their causes. Faced with the complexity of this issue outsized Attorney Maillaud, cowardly, meanwhile, that “everything is possible”, adding: “I just hope he is not another case Godard that we will never have the last word. “Thirteen years of investigation were never able to explain the disappearance in 1999 of Dr. Yves Godard, his wife and their two children.

Potential links between Al-Hilli and Saddam Hussein

German intelligence had passed through the Office of the counter-terrorism police, elements of the relationship between the family of Saad Al-Hilli and fortune of Saddam Hussein, according to a source close to the investigation into the killing of horse.

Tensions arising from the eviction would be the father of Saad Al-Hilli of the list of beneficiaries of funds belonging to the former Iraqi dictator.

The conflict between the brothers Al-Hilli, mentioned in the survey, have focused on this legacy, not only paternal legacy. Swiss court found that Saad Al-Hilli had an account that was one million euros, without making a link between this sum and Iraq, the country of origin of the family.

The idea of a hidden legacy of Saddam Hussein is pure fantasy, says one of his French lawyers, Emmanuel Ludot. The only track that would make sense, it is the funds deposited by the Iraqi regime in Swiss banks in the context of the case against oil food. “Asked by Le Monde, the prosecutor Annecy, Eric Maillaud, responded that it had not been “informed of the arrival of this new element.”

Killing in Savoy
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> Slaughter of Horses: a single killer, determined and very brutalitéInfographie

10-28-2012 at 01:14:47

The new Le Monde article throws us some interesting new scraps to play with. The bits I take from it are:

1. Killer approached and started shooting (not close range) from uphill of the lay-by.
2. SAH was shot in back before getting back into car. [I think ZAH probably took the shot in the shoulder then as well]
3. Car hit and dragged SM while reversing.
4. SAH may have had access to some of Saddam’s laundered wealth !

#4 gives us another potential motive. Let’s park that form the time being.

#1, 2 & 3 give me a better feel for what may have happened. My analysis is:

– SAH parked his BMW front first at the downhill (Chevaline) and of the layby.
– SAH and ZAH got out of car.
– SAH encountered SM and was standing close to him (talking to him) somewhere near the middle of the layby when the killer started shooting. SM (at least was hit) hence his blood found on SAH.
– SAH grabbed his daughter and made and tried to get them both to the downhill side of the BMW (driver’s side) with the car between them and the shooter.
– One or both of them took body shots (as did SM who fell to the ground)
– SAH made it to his door without his daughter.
– This meant he could not do a simple reverse onto the road and drive off. He had to try to save his daughter so he did the semi circle reverse to either try to put the car between the killer and his daughter or to try to hit the killer.
– Car hit and dragged the prone SM while reversing.
– Car got stuck. Maybe because SAH fell unconscious from the shot he had taken.
– This gave killer the chance to shoot all occupants he could see in car and then finish off SM.
– Out of ammo he struck ZAH with gun (hence fragments from gum found on ground), saw or was warned of BM approaching and made his escape back up hill – the direction he emerged from – where he probably had a motorbike waiting.

BTW – as I have said before is SAH was making secret arrangements I am sure he would have been using an untraceable SIM card to make the calls and would have kept this card well hidden.

10-28-2012 at 01:25:06


Did Kadhim al-Hilli’s billions just evaporate in a matter of weeks? This is gross misinformation, propaganda to cover up the true fate of the four victims and the ugly face of foreign intelligence behind the assassin. I made a more argumentative case why the Al-Hilli family members are Shia and have had no affiliation with the Baath party under Saddam Hussein’s rule. You can read all on the previous thread with names, dates and a bit of Iraq’s history. This is a rehash of previous article, except at a much lower amount of cash in the Swiss bank. SAH and Saddam’s billions is just an Arabian fantasy.

This is so far off base, similar to the WMD’s to be found in Saddam’s Iraq. And we know who supplied the intelligence to PM Tony Blair.

British Newspapers: Who Owns What?

10-28-2012 at 01:39:46

00:38 28/10/12

The Independent version of the Le Monde article:

Keep safe!

10-28-2012 at 01:52:05

Tks to Lynda & Oui and off to bed till tomorrow 00.51 28/10/

10-28-2012 at 02:06:50


Your observations and the sequence are just about right. #4 is a dud, don’t go for it or we’ll start the Iraq War all over again with Tony’s trumped up intelligence reports. It’s false information, see my previous comment. Curveball gave the phony intelligence to the German BND and was used by the Italians (Sylvio Berlusconi) to provide MI6 and the CIA drawings used in the UN presentation by Colin Powell.

You’ve got the orientation of the Martinet parking reversed! I have explained this many, many times in the previous thread. When you look at the Sky News video, what is the position of the sun and shadow? The reporter walks from position #1 of the car near barricade (south end) and moves slowly backward to where the car ended against the embankment (north end) and position #2. The BMW Estate was in the most disadvantageous position to turn-around and head back to Chevaline, to the north.

At the parking lay-by and facing north, the fast running waters of the stream Combe d’Ire is on your left side. By the next bridge it will reverse on be on your right side. This is important to understand the few options open to Saad as he tried to save his daughter, himself and the two women. Many early reports in the media and even the demo video of what took place had the orientation backwards. Sloppy, very sloppy.

2nd night I bolted the front door, sleep well. 28-10-2012 02:00am CET

10-28-2012 at 02:07:59

Thx Pete for the link. English is easier to understand for me:)

The ONLY problem for me of the ‘nutter’ is the fact that he seemed to have ‘waited’ for SM.

It is a play of minutes, even seconds may be. But I guess Killer X must have been hiding in the wood already. And the AH’s were already there (AH and Zainab were OUTSIDE the car)

So WHY did Killer X not start shooting at that moment?


1. Killer X was not there yet (and when he arrived AH and SM were there)
2. AH and SM arrived practically at the same time
3. Killer X was indeed waiting for SM
4. Killer X was waiting for AH

Now, option 1 seems not likely. But because it is such a matter of seconds we can not rule out 2. In fact, for me, option 2 makes more sense, because when going for option 3 you have to explain WHY Killer X did all that collateral killing towards the AH’s. Option 4 only for reference (I don’t think SM arrived before AH)

So, I favor the ‘nutter’ and to explain the killings I favor the timeline were AH and SM arrived practically at the same moment (and thus presenting Killer X with 4 adult targets to deal with)

10-28-2012 at 08:04:40

Sunday, 28 October. At 8.02 a.m.

Just read all your wonderful analyses. I am amazed at the analytical minds we have here. Great stuff.
Have a good Sunday.

10-28-2012 at 08:51:45

10.28.2012 08:40

Profiling continued:

If we for the moment disregard the “nutter theory”, then I think that the killer must have had some relation to the place, that he choose for the murders.

I have now read a couple of times in the newspapers that it was the father-in-law who told the french victim about the route over Combe d’Ire (see e.g. the latest Le Monde article above).

The father-in-law however lives some 30 kilometres away in Grignon, Albertville. As far as I know he is also not from this part of France, but moved to this area when the children were small. How come that he knows about Combe d’Ire?

Maybe there is a special reason why this place is known to him, and maybe the killer for the same reason was familiar with the place.

10-28-2012 at 09:43:44

Good Morning Marilyn and all investigators @ M you have based your time schedule on BM what if he was not telling the truth about when he saw SM we have nobody else to prove it when he was there ? and how long he stayed there before calling for help

10-28-2012 at 10:08:33

The only new bit in the Sunday Times is that the autopsy of SM shows broken ribs, it appears he was run over by the BMW.

10-28-2012 at 10:40:35

@Pete.R. Re: Sunday Times.

Thanks for this. Reading it.

10-28-2012 at 10:48:27

Regarding the alleged link between Kadhim AH and the offshore fortune of Saddam Hussein, German intelligence probably does not need to rely upon dodgy human sources such as “Curveball” in this case. Remember all those data sets on offshore clients of Swiss banks that the german tax authorities have been purchasing, and are still purchasing? Even though the purchase of those data sets is for-profit exercise organized at the level of the individual german states, I consider it highly likely that the german foreign intelligence service BND receives copies of all those data.

However, I agree with @ Oui that the idea that Kadhim AH held monies in trust for Saddam Hussein probably is nonsense. You have to ask yourselves: When Kadhim AH left Iraq, how did he get his fortune out of the country? Cash in a suitcase? Unlikely. Via bank transfer from his bank in Iraq? Also highly unlikely, as Swiss banks wouldn’t have wanted to touch that money. (It would have made Kadhim AH a PEP, a Politically-Exposed Person, subject to very close scrutiny.) The most plausible explanation is that he sold up his business in Iraq to somebody with good connections to Iraq’s ruling elite and had that person transfer the payment to the Geneva bank account from another offshore bank account, i. e., an account held outside Iraq. This, the circumstance that the money in Kadhim AHs Geneva bank account was transferred there by somebody closely associated with Saddam Hussein’s ruling clique, probably gave rise to the (in my view, mistaken) idea that Kadhim AH was some sort of bag man for Saddam Hussein.

10-28-2012 at 10:52:04

I now think that we can put all ideas about a ‘nutter killer’ right out of our minds.

I’m reading through the London Sundays and they are good. The Mail on Sunday is excellent.MoS

Shushu, you said from the start that this was an assassination involving Iraq and vow, you were right. You may be the one who is going to win our prize.

The MoS is quite firm about the Saddam Hussein money thing. They say that if Saad Al-Hilli was party to the secret of where Saddam Hussein had his money, “then he would have been an obvious target for an attack”.

So, our Saad Al-Hilli was not the kind hubby, father and son-in-law, taking his family for a sunny afternoon drive.

Great stuff. This story changes by the day.

British journalists are so much better than their French colleagues, and a special bravo must go to Le Monde because yesterday it told us things.

10-28-2012 at 11:02:13

@Peter and @OUi : Re: Saddam Husseins billions.

No! This was an assassination because of money and not a ‘nutter’ case.

If one wants to move money across borders, one can do so. I wouldn’t know how to, but for sure, if I want to do so, I could find out how to do it.

Saddam had a yacht; it was moored at a French pleasure port. Saddam was everyone’s darling before he became Mr. Very Bad Guy. The word would have gone out to let his yacht pass, not to search it. So, there you have it: Saddam could have loaded it with money and gold bars.

I know Peter that you were with a Swiss bank so you will know much more about banking than I do, and especially about Swiss banking, but dictators do get their money into Swiss banks without having to carry money there in suitcases. Remember the Marcos couple? Remember Idi Amin? We’ve got Bongo right now, and Khadaffi. And oh what about Mobutu? Thief of all thieves.

10-28-2012 at 11:02:26

@Maryilyn: thank you for the warm welcome.

@Lynda: I guess you are right, that the killer spent each day armed and ready for an opportunity to present itself. I still wonder how he arranged for the family to go there and for him to know they were there in such a fine place for slaughtering.

@Qui: Thank you for the explanation of the direction and movements of the car. Mr Hilli’s only weapon was the car, and he used it to try and shield Zeinab from the killer, and to perhaps try and hit the killer with it. I don’t think he ever had any intention of leaving his little daughter, he died before he could complete his actions.

Lars: I agree about the absurdity of Mr Hilli being a bagman for Saddam. The family fled Iraq because Saddam was turning against the Shias, just as the brother stated. Newspapers make up stories routinely for one reason and one reason only: to sell papers. I agree that the money could have been transferred to Swizerland by a Suni or Shia person who enjoyed Saddam’s favour.

10-28-2012 at 11:17:59

I am still wondering about Mr. William Brett’s testimony and BBC interview.

Mr. Brett did not notice that the man had been shot, he said specifically that he noticed that the cyclist had no “rashes”, as he would have if he had fallen of his bike. So he concluded that it wasn’t a car accident.

Now we learn that the cyclist was probably shot 5 times, been dragged by the BMW, maybe also run over by the car!!

I still think Mr. Brett have some things he needs to explain.

10-28-2012 at 11:27:58

@ Marilyn re: getting money out of a country

Rule #1 in the Dictator’s Little Black Book of Hiding Money Abroad (I just made up that title, before you go off and google for it) is: Whatever you do, do it as a corporate entity, not as an individual. This holds true for dictators and their families everywhere, even if they happen to be the West’s best friends. Anything to do with such people falls under PEP regulations, which often means that the intelligence services will be consulted: Can we safely accept this person’s money? How exactly is that person linked to this or that dictator?

This kind of scrutiny hasn’t stopped Switzerland accepting funds from people like the Gaddafis or Kim Il-Sung (both of these families made Switzerland their home-from-home for many years), but it means that these assets are known to the authorities and will be seized as soon as their owners fall out of favour with the West.

Hence, that is not the way to do it. The assets have to be held at arm’s-length, in the form of investment funds, trusts etc. managed by nominee directors. For example

However, being a dictator has the advantage that you can physically move gold, cash, bearer bonds, precious stones etc. anywhere in the world without risk of discovery. You don’t have to smuggle these aboard a yacht, because the courtesies of the Vienna Convention are extended even to dictatorships

10-28-2012 at 11:30:08

I think that if Iraqis wanted to kill Mr al-Hilli, they probably had done so when he visited Iraq and the family’s old property. Then Mr al-Hilli would have been only a number in that dreadful statistics.

10-28-2012 at 11:31:54

Le lieutenant-colonel Benoît Vinnemann, qui dirige l’enquête sur la tuerie de Chevaline, a assuré samedi qu'”aucune pièce de procédure n’a été transmise à la direction générale de la gendarmerie ou au cabinet d’instruction”, en réponse aux affirmations du quotidien Le Monde daté de dimanche.

Pour sa part, le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Eric Maillaud, a également démenti l’existence de “synthèses partielles”, comme l’affirme le quotidien. “Il n’existe pas de synthèse partielle. De plus, s’il devait en exister une elle ne serait jamais transmise à la direction générale de la gendarmerie”, a affirmé Eric Maillaud. “On est en train de susciter des interrogations auprès des familles qui ne comprennent pas qu’elles ne soient pas mises au courant”, a déploré le procureur de la République.

The above is from today’s JDD (Journal du Dimanche). As you will see Lt.Col. Vinneman as well as EM have rubbished Le Monde’s claims of having seen docs about the case.

10-28-2012 at 11:41:29


Is it not more difficult to claim that Le Monde is publishing rubbish, than to say that Le Parisien is doing the same thing?

10-28-2012 at 11:45:09

It is very upsetting that this beautiful region is becoming such a spooky place. Six corpses found in Lake Annecy during the past year thanks to new technology now available. Then there is the Flactif case at Grand-Bornand – a whole family murdered, including three children aged 7 to 10 – which is above Annecy. And now the Chevaline murders. Not that everything is related, but nevertheless I retain the bad vibes of the place…

10-28-2012 at 11:45:40

@All – MOS have used the small piece that was in Le Monde to make a front page article. EM has said that there had been no movement of money since before Khadims death – I wonder if at all.

I have received a reply from my American ex-pilot friend, here it is from his e:mail

“Regarding your question about pilots being armed. First I did a Google search and found several news reports regarding the story you mentioned. Very gruesome to say the least. If the full truth comes out, I’m pretty certain it will be quite sordid in nature.

This past week in the NY area there have been some terrible stories.

A car-jacking took place where a NY City policeman was killed (29 years old, no less). In addition the car-jacker killed a man who stopped to call his daughter from his car – daughter apparently heard it.

Then the next day a “nanny” killed two children that she was watching. Stabbed both children. Mother came home to find a bloody bathroom and her children, age 7 and 2 in the bathtub.

What a crazy world.

Regarding pilots and guns. Yes, after 9-11, airline pilots in the U.S. became eligible for a program called Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO). It became law in the U.S. in 2003.

It’s a voluntary program, where those pilots who apply for the program must bear the expense themselves. The must purchase a specific type hand gun, bullets, special holster and do all the training without reimbursement (I think the training is done in New Mexico). There is quite an interview and background process one goes through. The training itself takes 2-3 weeks and is very rigorous. Not only must they be a “good shot” as tested during the training, but they are put through an extensive amount of physical training and testing in simulated cockpit and airplane scenarios. I’m not certain what the failure rate is, but I’ve been told there are some.

They must attend “requalification” periodically, but I’m uncertain as to the frequency required.

Virtually everyone who is accepted has had prior firearms training, usually in the military.

The guns, in the holster, are carried in a specially designed locked bag and carried by the pilot. The gun can only be taken out of the bag at departure time when in the cockpit. No other time is permitted by law.

As you know, I do some traveling for my job in the cockpit of U.S. airlines. I would have to say perhaps 15-20% of the time at least one of the pilots is “carrying”. I have not yet flown with a female FFDO, but it’s my understanding there are a few.

There are very severe penalties if the gun is mis-handled or used outside of the cockpit, except for training.”

10-28-2012 at 11:45:58

Clarifying note: I of course mean more difficult for B. Vinneman and Eric Maillaud.

10-28-2012 at 11:46:35

@Peter : Re: Getting money out of a country.

Thanks for this. First of all what is PEP please?

OK, I read about Montana and about the diplomatic bag. (I once worked on a story of how stolen historical tapestries were brought to Paris in a diplomatic bag.)

What I have to ask you further is:

(1) So, if a dictator, gangster, smuggler’s etc assets are known to the authorities, then Switzerland was just having us on when she claimed that they would have to open an investigation with regard to, shall we say Mobutu’s money. In other words, a click of the mouse would have opened his assets on their screens? Same now with the search for Gaddafi’s assets.

(2) You say one does not have to smuggle gold etc on to a yacht to move it. So what are the other ways to move it physically and of course illegally?

10-28-2012 at 11:47:14

@Lars: Re: BM’s testimony.

Yep, it merits some thinking. You are right.

10-28-2012 at 11:48:50


To local AFP reporters they also rubbished the idea of being contacted by German secret service about an Al Hilli-Saddam Hussein connection.

10-28-2012 at 11:50:59

@Lars: Re: I think that if Iraqis wanted to kill Mr al-Hilli, they probably had done so when he visited Iraq and the family’s old property. Then Mr al-Hilli would have been only a number in that dreadful statistics.

Maybe they were not yet then aware that the Al-Hillis had helped Saddam move some assets from the country.

They also could have killed him by poisoning him. Polonium comes to mind. Or why not with a poisoned umbrella? Or a car accident in England. (No, I am not going to refer to Princess Diana’s death again, don’t worry.) But they might have decided that it must be done while he was in France – for various reasons which I would rather not go into.

10-28-2012 at 11:52:18

@Lars no iraq didn’t wanted to kill AH is more deeper than the money is very sensitive matter and as i said we won’t be able to solve it for many years

10-28-2012 at 11:57:49

@Marilyn Re: ”a click of the mouse would have opened his assets on their screens”

Not being an expert on these things like Peter, I still remember Gadaffi’s last months/weeks in power. Then you could read in the newspapers that all the banks and other institutions handling funds in my country searched for any assets that could be linked to Gadaffi. There were also consultations with other banks across the world. So when it was clear that Gadaffi’s days were counted, they could literally by a click of the mouse block all his assets.

10-28-2012 at 11:59:26

@ Marilyn

A PEP is a “Politically-Exposed Person” and subject to much more stringent scrutiny by financial institutions than others

IMHO, Switzerland was not “having the rest of the world on” when they said that they needed an investigation to Mobutu’s money. His *personal* assets and the *personal assets* of anybody close to him would have been already known to the authorities (as per PEP rules). However, Mobutu and people of his ilk are not stupid, and they do have professional advisors. Thus, as per my Rule #1, their assets would be held by corporate entities or trusts, which in turn were held by other entities in other jurisdictions, which in turn were held by … A complex maze of trusts and shell companies in multiple jurisdictions, each one fronted by nominee directors or protected by attorney-client privilege, that is what smart dictators go for.

Regarding the means of physically moving valuables abroad, I have already given my answer: the diplomatic pouch, which is exempt from scrutiny by customs and which can take the size of a shipping container.

10-28-2012 at 12:02:09

Please remember the Flactif case in 2003 before saying that the killer could not be a father himself (assuming it’s a man, which is likely). The Flactif family was murdered by an envious neighbour, himself a father-of-two, helped in his plans by his partner and another couple. The murderer, David Hotyat, surely a doting father to his own children, went on his premeditated killing spree in the Flactif chalet by first targeting the three children aged 6, 7 and 9, chasing them around the chalet and hitting them with an object, then firing at the parents when they came home. The Chevaline modus operandi reminds one of the Flactif case, however, I’m not implying there is a link between the two killings. One thing for sure is that there are still many unanswered questions regarding the 2003 murders, in particular the fact that David Hotyat could not have been the sole perpetrator.

So the killer of the Chevaline murders may or may not have his own family; it is impossible to exclude the fact that, once the sombre deed executed, he went home to a family.

10-28-2012 at 12:17:20

I would like to thank Marilyn for this fantastic site i have learned a lot from All the participants we have great people here that are very knowledgeable and is great thank you all of you i’m enjoying to read all the comments 🙂 Thank You

10-28-2012 at 12:24:03

@Peter: Re: diplomatic bag

But what if you do not have access to a diplomatic bag?

10-28-2012 at 12:30:44

@Y : Re : To local AFP reporters they also rubbished the idea of being contacted by German secret service about an Al Hilli-Saddam Hussein connection.

Thanks for this.

Here it is for our other commentators:

En outre, interrogé sur d’éventuels liens entre la famille de Saad al-Hilli et la fortune de l’ex-dictateur irakien, Saddam Hussein, évoqués par le quotidien, Benoît Vinnemann a indiqué “qu’aucun élément n’avait été transmis par les services secrets allemands au Bureau de lutte antiterroriste de la gendarmerie”.

“C’est faux. Aucun service secret de quelque pays que ce soit n’a transmis ce genre d’information”, a assuré le commandant de la Section de recherches basée à Chambéry.

Le gendarme a par ailleurs tenu à réaffirmer que l’ordre dans lequel les quatres victimes ont été abattues restait inconnu, contrairement à ce qu’ont affirmé plusieurs médias: “Tout s’est passé dans un mouchoir de poche et dans un temps très court. Scientifiquement il est impossible de dire qui a été tué le premier”.

Le magistrat et le gendarme se sont refusés à tout autre commentaire sur l’enquête en cours et le déroulement des événements.

10-28-2012 at 12:43:49

@ Marilyn

If you don’t have access to a diplomatic bag, then you are not a very successful dictator 😉

Seriously speaking, when it comes to moving cash using channels outside the regular banking system, which is carefully monitored by US intelligence agencies anyway (remember that kerfuffle about Brussels-based SWIFT?), in most cases the cash is not being physically moved at all. Instead, reciprocal transactions take place. Many latin american countries, for example, have very strict controls on foreign-currency ownership and foreign-currency exports. In response to this, unlicensed “Dolaro” currency-exchange shops proliferated, which match people who want to invest inside the country with people who want to get their money out of the country: The person who wants to get his money out performs an investment in local currency on behalf of the offshore investor, and the offshore investor pays the equivalent amount in US-dollars or Euros into the offshore account of the local.

The same thing is happening in China nowadays, which also has very tight currency export controls. There are hundreds of illegal FX businesses in Hongkong’s Tsim Sha Tsui district, which, for a very modest fee of 3%, will match mainlanders wishing to move money out of China with overseas Chinese wishing to invest inside China.

When it comes to moving other, non-cash assets, the best bet would be to use the infrastructure of one of the big narcotics-smuggling networks, again for a fee.

10-28-2012 at 12:46:11

@ Marilyn RE; But what if you do not have access to a diplomatic bag? then you are not a dictator or head of country so the best way is to buy gem (Diamonds ) from Cartier in geneva

10-28-2012 at 12:47:00


Great stuff about the American pilot, thank you.

Wow, many additional and great comments and I have more reading to do …

10-28-2012 at 12:48:09

Yes, wonderful website and comments.

While reading, a few things dawned on me. The Al Hillis were loitering in the region and taking pictures only minutes before they were executed. Could it be that SAH had an appointment in the lay-by at 3:30 pm precisely and was waiting for the right time to come to be there? He did not want to arrive too early as children get easily bored and fidgety while waiting. Of course he must have known the place, possibly he was there alone at least once before – remember that witnesses at the camping said that he often went out alone for about half an hour or so – maybe he had met there Mollier, or the British ex-RAF cyclist, or the killer(s) before, and had just one more meeting scheduled at the same place at 3:30 pm – more or less incognito. It was surely supposed to be a very quick encounter, a few words said and exchanged (as no mobile phone, no coverage, and no email, too risky as a trace), and SAH thought it was perfectly safe to take his family along.

Then there is this very strange thing about TWO cyclist being present, and also the alleged grand-mother is very very strange. More later.

10-28-2012 at 12:51:41

“I also won’t use a mobile phone if I want the call not to be detected. I also won’t use my landline or my PC. So what to do? In our time of electronics we can have no secrets anymore.”
If you know what you are doing computer communication can be secret & leave no easily followed trace. Of course there are always old fashioned methods of communication as well.

Anyway we seem to be being swamped by leaks from “sources close to” at the moment, I’ve not caught up yet. Except I’m more confused than ever!

@any gun experts
1)How easily would parts fall off a Luger of the type proposed?
2)What parts would they be?
3)What would it take to cause them to fall off?

10-28-2012 at 12:56:28

these days is very hard to withdraw your asset from swiss bank my cousin wanted to get some of her money transferred to another bank in uk and they told her you must write to us then it has to be approved and to tell us what you want this money for but if she goes to geneva is no problem she can withdraw i told her go there get your money and buy a big diamond 🙂 this is true

10-28-2012 at 13:06:21

@ bleb

As it happens, I spoke to a *real* gun expert only yesterday, a guy who originally trained as a gunsmith, then fought as a mercenary in Rhodesia and has since gone on do things that I don’t want to know about.

He said that he would still rank the Luger in his personal top five of pistols because it is so accurate. I asked him the same question, and he said it was most likely one of both of the grip plates coming off while the killer bashed Zainab over the head, holding the gun by its barrel. Apparently, they have a tendency to fall off if the gun is handled roughly.

10-28-2012 at 13:16:39

@Marilyn Z.

The earlier article described Saad al-Hilli as keeping billions of Saddam’s secret money in an account in Geneva.

If there would have been a link to Saddam’s fortune, it would have been discovered aeons ago when the sanction were put in place and certainly after March 2003 as new software programs were put in place to track and locate all transactions and funds from Saddam and Baath party leadership.

As I have reported the timeline when Kadhim al-Hilli fled Iraq and the purge of the Islamist Dawa party. He left Iraq in period 1969/1970 after the Baath party came to power. Lt. General Saddam Hussein took over the presidency of Iraq on July 16, 1979 – link. Can we leave this topic now as being false? Just look at the basic facts and don’t take the word of Murdoch’s empire for how it all came about.

Rupert Murdoch as an asset of Israeli intelligence and more.

10-28-2012 at 13:34:49

Saad al-Hilli and secret Communications

Are there still places in Annecy with public telephones or next best Internet cafés are in use? Leaving the campsite for short periods and not coming back with grocery goods …

Isn’t the Blackberry still encrypted in France? The Blackberry is banned in countries of authoritarian regimes like Saudi Arabia and I understood North African and Gulf nations.

10-28-2012 at 13:36:47

Nothing looks so much like a cyclist than another cyclist. If you look at cyclists on the roads – the sporty ones, not urban cyclists – they all wear the same type of clothes, a helmet, gloves, and sunglasses. They all have the same build, because the muscles develop in the same way. Cycling is very very popular in the region. Many people are cycling aficionados, men more often than women. The only distinguishing factor between male cyclists is the color of their clothes. We are not told what SM was wearing but I bet he had all the necessary sportswear, as did WBM. We do not know what SM looked like – the only picture found online may not be him, as it was not officially released and he is seen wearing a Gemini necklace on it, while the Prosecutor EM announced that SM was born in April 1967 – therefore he should be wearing an Aries or Taurus silver chain.

My point is, from afar and even from a few meters, SM, wearing a cycling helmet and sunglasses, might be thought to be WBM and vice versa. What if the two British citizens SAH and WBM had scheduled a meeting together at that precise spot, but SM cycled unexpectedly a few minutes ahead and was mistaken for WBM by the killer, who knew about the meeting? And who probably thought the two would be alone – as in a prior meeting – and was most surprised to find SAH’s whole family waiting there? This would explain WBM’s panic, which definitely sounds out of place. A man of his training does not act in such a panicky way. He did not have nerves of steel – the killer had nerves of steel! It would also explain his reported terror: he knew he was the target and/or he is guilt-ridden as he failed in his assignment and/or he was terrorized he or his family might be the next target.

A lot of What ifs, sorry if this was mentioned before.

10-28-2012 at 13:43:58

@ Peter

I also discovered about the side plates of the Luger coming off, and ‘amovible la crosse’, which is as you say the butt.

Re: Fragments of the weapon. Is it possible that there was a tussle between gunman and Mollier, gun falling to the ground and a bit coming off, they were apparently found near the bike.

I am beginning to think that AH and Zainab had walked up to the second Forestry panel beyond the barrier, would account for being shot at whilst ‘running’ back to the car, Zainab needing to get past the boot to gain access to the passenger seat, leaving her in the middle of the car park.

I bet the women didn’t want to get out of the car as there was ‘nothing to see – can we go now please – this road goes nowhere etc’

If Mollier was picked up by the reverse arc of the car, could he have first encountered the gunman, nearer the middle of the clearing ? Recognised him, fought and then was shot whilst running away.

If the father-in-law recommended the route, is that his real (ex) father-in-law or Claire Schutz father ?

We’ve had guns going off all morning here – I detest it, I love my ‘safari’ drive up the hill and see the partridges, pheasants and deer. Not forgetting the hares and humble rabbits – yes, I eat meat, not sure I would if I had to kill it myself !

10-28-2012 at 13:48:26

@Visiteur : Re: SM and WBM confusion.

If I remember correctly no one has until now pointed out that the killer might have mistaken SM for BM. Thanks for this. Something to think about.

10-28-2012 at 13:55:35

@Oui : Re: Saddam’s money and Murdoch Empire.

I am useless with dates.

The Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday are not part of Murdoch’s empire. They are published by Associated Newspapers belonging to the Harmsworths – the current owner being Jonathan, Lord Rothermere.

Are we back to lone crazy, crazed killer?

10-28-2012 at 13:56:32

@bleb: Re: confused

I am with you there, Bleb. I too am totally confused.

10-28-2012 at 13:57:42

@Shushu: re: Cartier in Geneva.

Shushu, been there, done that, got the diamonds, now what do I do as I need the hard cash?

10-28-2012 at 14:01:40

@Peter: Re:moving money.

Shushu said ‘buy gems at Cartier in Geneva’. So I will be taking the train to Geneva tomorrow morning.

10-28-2012 at 14:04:05


I assumed it was the father of his wife-to-be who advised him to try the route over Combe d’Ire. I find it hard to believe that his ex. father-in-law would advise to go somewhere, except perhaps go …..
But you never know.

10-28-2012 at 14:04:08

SM’s father-in-law needs to be investigated too. He is said to have suggested to SM to cycle on that precise road. Of course it might prove to be just an innocent suggestion, however, considering that Ugine is quite far from the lay-by, and the father-in-law allegedly lives even further away (Albertville?), then his suggestion about cycling La Route Combe d’Ire should be looked at closely. Or did someone overhear him saying it?

10-28-2012 at 14:06:08

@Peter and @bleb : Luger

The killer must have hit little Zainab very hard in that case. I mean she’s just a little slip of a girl of 7.

10-28-2012 at 14:07:04

@Oui: Re public telephone booths.

I think there are still public telephone booths everywhere in France. There are certainly some all over Paris.

10-28-2012 at 14:13:04

Why did the killer leave so abruptly? He hadn’t finished with Zainab, he didn’t pick up the bits that had fallen off his gun (but he took the gun with him?), he left the BMW engine running. Up to then he appears to have been methodical (2 shots each to the head). BM didn’t hear anything, so how could the killer have heard him coming? Did he have an accomplice acting as lookout? Also where was his vehicle and was it a car or motorbike?

By the way all these skeletons coming out of the cupboard are just clouding the crime.

10-28-2012 at 14:17:37

Regarding the elderly mother-in-law of SAH, aged 74 – or even 77 according to another passport, her presence seems incredible to me. Most 70+ ladies I know are ailing and in poor shape, in and out of hospital, and here we have this 70+ ORIENTAL (i.e. not very sporty and fit) lady, who, after a most difficult life – remember… her husband died, she was brutalized and threatened during many years by a mentally ill adult son, not to mention her uprooting from Irak to cold Sweden, in itself a very upsetting move – so this elderly lady, who must not be super fit, but who goes about touring Europe in uncomfortable conditions, sounds quite bizarre to me. She travels from Sweden to the UK, fine, but then she accompanies her daughter’s family on a lengthy and uncomfortable trip lasting 12 hours each time, from the UK to some Dordogne region, then to the Haute-Savoie region, then who knows where was planned. All this in a packed car, sleeping in a packed caravan (a camper pointed out that they were surely very tightly squeezed in there being 5 persons, and very uncomfortable). Sounds fishy. My bet is that her presence was needed, and not for trivia like looking after the grand-children, but for another reason.

10-28-2012 at 14:20:49

@Pete R.

Yes, a lookout would have come in handy.

10-28-2012 at 14:26:58


You should not think and say such things about elderly people, Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger might be offended.
I think she was a very fit lady, living very comfortably south of Stockholm in Sweden, which by the way is not always so cold.

10-28-2012 at 14:46:58

@ Marilyn

I am a little confused: Are you asking these questions with reference to the Al-Hillis, or with reference to a story that you are writing, or your own personal financial planning?

Regarding buying diamonds, they are sold retail at a 30% markup on wholesale prices, and they are not a very “liquid” investment, in my opinion. It is not easy to reconvert them into cash.

If you merely wish to move money across borders in a way that cannot be traced, your best bet would be to approach a dodgy FX business. Deposit your money there, pick it up (minus commission) at their partner business in the target country. Done.

If you have a *lot* of money to move, approach the domestic subsidiary of a foreign bank and explain your predicament. Do not open an account there, as that will leave a paper trail. Insist that you will only do business with their HQ abroad, and insist that you cannot travel there yourself. If you have chosen wisely, the bank’s foreign HQ will contact you and offer to send somebody around to collect your money.

Your best bet, however, would be to follow my Rule #1: Establish a company X in your country of residence, establish another shell company Y with nominee directors somewhere else, have company Y bill company X a whopping amount for consultancy services or some other intangible, and remit the money to Y’s account. Not only do you have a totally legitimate paper trail to show at the end, you also have a tax-deductible expense in your country of residence.

The same goes for all the lovely toys that money can buy: Do not buy a yacht. Have your offshore shelf company Y buy that yacht, and then lease it (for a whopping fee) from Y, claiming part of the leasing fees as tax-deductible corporate entertainment expenses for X in your country of residence.

A famous tax-dodger called Leona Helmsley once said: “Taxes are for little people.” By contrast, my boss at the Swiss bank used to say: “Tax evasion is for fools and paupers. The seriously rich can afford professional advice and don’t have to pay any taxes.”

10-28-2012 at 15:00:32

@Peter : re: Moving money.

Oh, I do wish I have the kind of money that needs to be moved illegally across borders …

No, I am just generally interested in how people move money seeing there is this issue of Saddam Hussein’s money.

And no, I am not writing a story about moving money either.

The day I have the kind of money that needs to be moved illegally across borders, I will be in touch with you.

10-28-2012 at 15:04:02

@Pete.R re: BM not having heard anything.

You make a good point here: BM had not heard anything, yet our scenario is that the killer must have heard him coming.

10-28-2012 at 15:07:09

@Lars: Re: Edlerly people.

The Rolling Stones gave a concert in Paris last week. It was their first in 5 years and it was in a hall which could seat only 600. Despite that the concert was announced only a day in advance, the hall was packed. I friend of mine went there and he told me that the people were on their feet clapping and dancing for all of the 1 hr 8 minute concert.

10-28-2012 at 15:16:14

re: *real* gun expert

Thanks for that info. Did your expert also have any observations on:

1) How difficult this would have been to carry out?
2) The sort of training & experience that would be required?

Apologies if you have already answered this (I’m really struggling to keep up at the moment)

10-28-2012 at 15:22:50


Lacking reliability I clearly meant the foreign intelligence services BND – MI6 – French – Italian – Israeli all working closely together on Bush’s War on Terror. After Iraq and Saddam’s overthrow the objective has changed to Iran as the nation exporting terror and using the nuclear enrichment as paradigm.

As I have mentioned early on, the Annecy Alps killings has been covered by media in many nations worldwide, not in Israel. We know there is military censorship in place. See an article I mentioned before using hasbara [Israeli rebuttal technique]: Jewish Chronicle: … Mossad and the tragic Al-Hilli murder .

Did I mention, primarily the NSA, GCHQ and the RAF Menwith Hills station [link photo] in are able to crack the most sophisticated encryption, this includes the Blackberry. Of course these messages automaticaly gains their attention. Sometimes even their own are murdered never to be solved Gareth Williams Murder – Cheltenham GCHQ/ NSA Spy Thriller.

10-28-2012 at 15:24:56

@Marilyn Z.

I’ll be off-line for some time, perhaps a day. Need to catch up on my story and the intrigues. Be safe.

10-28-2012 at 15:41:02

See BM coming. SEE (not heard)

10-28-2012 at 15:48:36

I need to do some reading up but the ideaa of KillerX mistaken SM for BM (the real target) would hang on the OUT OF AMMO thing.

Because Killer X would have instantly realized his ‘mistake’ when seeing BM in the distance (the reason why he escaped and didn’t kill Z)

ONLY a ‘out of ammo’ situation would make him abandon the scene. And even then, he could have taken some blunt thing and wait in the woods for BM to be occupied with the scene and then strike. And beat him to death. Be cause the Killer X was very sincere about his killings and if he would see BM (as the real target) it would not make sense to abandon his ‘mission’

Furthermore, IF BM really is ‘involved’ and EM is not able to ‘catch’ him. Blood at his hands. moving bodies etc … Well, I give up:) How would WE catch the guy if EM couldn’t or wouldn’t with BM at his doorstep.

As said, I’ll do some catch up reading, but BM ‘involved’?? I have to think hard and long:)

10-28-2012 at 17:00:51

@ bleb

The gun expert was quite dismissive; he thought it sounded like the handiwork of a madman. He didn’t like the method: According to him, the killer started firing too early, from too far away, almost allowing SAH to get away – instead of getting close enough and killing both adult males with the first few shots. He didn’t like the location either: too secluded, too difficult to get away from unobserved.

In my opinion, the point about the location is debatable, but the point about SAH almost getting away makes sense. From the killer’s point of view, it must have been a sheer stroke of luck that SAH managed to get his BMW stuck, or was already too severely injured to engage the first gear before the car got stuck. If SAH had reacted a split-second earlier, or if the first bullet had struck him in a slightly different place, he would have been able to drive his car at the killer, or speed away from the scene in order to save his family. Either way, he would have made an extremely difficult target for the killer, almost impossible to hit with any degree of certainty.

10-28-2012 at 17:09:41

Hello @ all:
may be somehow farfetched- but the (estimated) fact SAH being involved in some espionage/smuggling etc doesn’t exclude the theorie being involved in something re Saddam’s heritage (money)
May be the latter trouble just started with his fathers’ death in 2010…. dont’ forget his father was supposed to be missing for 5 days or so…. (may he he tried to solve the problem by himself bcause he felt his end was coming soon…..)
Because his wealth isn’t really his ‘own’ wealth…
And after his death, the 2 sons realized that fact and ?????

So it might be possible he was having a meeting up there with either SM or BM – but the killing was due to the iraquian money…. so two things crossed at the same time….
AND don’t forget to keep in mind that one or both of the women could be involved in either case
(hope you understand my worse discription, sorry)
My opinion re how the killer disappeared: by foot the first part- up to a hidden bike somewhere – up to his car somewhere – where he put the bike in his car and drove off…. Alone or with a helper….

10-28-2012 at 17:21:10

@Peter : Re; gun expert

It’s interesting what the gun expert told you. Yes, Saad could have got away. It’s also very true what he told you about the location having been too secluded. All the political and gangster assassinations here in France and in Corsica are carried out on busy streets. The assassins have had had preference for petrol station lately. The victim pulls up to fill the car and bang bang he is dead.

Thanks for this, Peter.

10-28-2012 at 17:27:04

@Mrs. Nitribitt.

You had asked how to get a gravatar. You still do not have one, so couldn’t you do it? I can give you the link again if you wish to try again.

No one has so far thought of what you suggest here: two things crossed at the same time.

Your suggestion of how the killer left the scene is also interesting. It’s realistic – as if you were there.

I’ve also had this idea that the killer drove off to Switzerland and crossed the border before the French had even realised what had happened on that forest road. Whether he (or she) lives in Switzerland, well that could be.

10-28-2012 at 17:50:44

@ Peter, it is the use of such an old weapon that leaves me believing in a gun nut, stalking the woods, after a liquid lunch, somehow disturbed and didn’t give a **** what damage he caused.

Possibly stumbled off towards his parked-up car, then slept somewhere and woke up realising what he’d done.

For all that, add to the mix, red mist descending, the target was SM and very personal. As my American friend said likely to be ‘sordid’. Did anyone see yesterdays TF1 piece with Chazal ? Suggests that gunman shot at SM eventhough the Al-Hillis were there, rage, love often one and the same. Family annoyed him by being there and trying to get away.

I have no doubt that Saad was planning a visit to the Geneva bank, to see what the score was, he afterall needed money to buy off his brother from making him sell his ‘family home’. House worth about 800k sterling, about the same in the bank account (not touched for some 10 year by the father). Selling the ruin in South West France, all to raise money to buy off his brothers demands and rightly so. My goodness, if something were to happen to me, my brother or schizophrenic stepson would be first on the list of suspects. The former, hundreds of miles away and no passport, the latter possessing such disorganised thoughts, wouldn’t have got further than the end of his road.

10-28-2012 at 18:14:50


I agree with your weapon expert 100%.
That’s why I have, from the beginning, thought that it must be the work of an amateur (when it comes to the killing, though maybe a trained shooter) or possibly a madhatter.

10-28-2012 at 18:25:33

“Die Schweizer Großbank UBS will offenbar bis zu 10.000 ihrer 63.000 Arbeitsplätze abbauen.” (FAZ)

Even the swiss Banks are starting to shake. Maybe it is better with diamonds after all. 🙂

10-28-2012 at 18:43:21

@ Marylin et al:
re disappearance the scene: That’s what I’d had opted to. When I saw the pix from the road and the cows crossing, I thought no way the killer took or even considered that excape route. Same maybe with the motorbike, if its forbidden in the area, as reports show. it wd be risky to him/them to be seen by the forrest rangers.
But, I have to admit – the 4×4 and or the bike- could be a part of the crime- as they might have acted as “blockers” so no other people/cars would reach the scene before having finished their nasty job. But, that’s just my humble opinion.
I just got another idea: wasn’t in the MSM mentioned both brothers did invest in buying/selling houses??
Wouldn’t it be possible to laundry money that way?
For your quest. re avatar: I’m still not quiete sure how long I wd/cd be part at your blog as it costs an immense of time to stay tuned… need to work beside 😉
But so far, it’s just tooo execting not to follow up the story!!
Unfortunately, it’s a true crime. people had to die and 2 poor children are now without their love ones.
There’s no word which wd fit for such a crime!!!

10-28-2012 at 18:56:20

10.28.2012 18:52

@Mrs. Nitribitt

Regarding:”… buying/selling houses?? Wouldn’t it be possible to laundry money that way?

It would definitely be a way to reduce taxes anyhow.

I thought so also concerning Mr. Brett’s house in Lathuile. Since it doesn’t seems to be a very profitable business it might be a way to reduce taxes on his other incomes, and at the same time get a summer house in France.

10-28-2012 at 19:18:34

The illustrations of the crime scene that I asked for earlier, is now provided by TF1 :

10-28-2012 at 19:54:23

I didn’t know before I became interested in this case, that cycling is such a huge interest, sport and pastime in France, not the least in Savoie, Haute-Savoie. Almost every person I search information about, they all mention cycling as a favourite occupation!

10-28-2012 at 20:02:19

@ Lars

yes, I realized that too, as well as our SM, BM, AH and this Garett Williams did…. I already had a search, if XB did any cycling as well??
Reminds me of a kind of German “saying”: Sport is Mord
I prefer the gym therefore…. 😉
(… and no, I didn’t look if RM had a bike)

10-28-2012 at 20:02:39

@ Lars Le Tour de France is probably the main reason for this ! My husband spent 2,500 Euros for his ! I would have used the money to buy a second hand small car.

Thanks for the TF1 link, it does show my thoughts that the gunman came from higher up and Mollier was in the middle of the road, also that the Al-Hillis were there first

Although it could be as much speculation as we are supplying.

10-28-2012 at 20:10:08

A little insight in how it is to cycle in the Savoie mountains:

je suis content d’avoir lancé ce débat et j’ai beaucoup appris avec tous vos messages.
Mon problème était de changer mon triple Dura Ace 52-39-30 et 12-27 et passer en 50-34 et retrouver une cassette qui puisse m’offrir d’aller aussi loin que que mon 30-27. Je fais beaucoup de montagne avec des enchaînements de cols, je vis en Savoie où le choix est immense, bien au-delà des seuls cols mythiques qui sont souvent les seuls connus par les cyclistes “touristes” qui viennent gouter nos routes. Tous les ans je pars aussi plusieurs semaines, découvir à vélo les autres belles routes de France. J’ai 60 ans et j’éspère encore un avenir de bonheur sur mon vélo avec le plasir de “bien passer” les difficultés et les kilométres ; je pense donc que je vais garder mon triple qui me permet de rouler fort dans les plats, les descentes ou les faux plats, de me faire plaisir en pouvant emmener mon 39 dans pas mal de difficultés et, la ressourse du 30 quand le besoin s’en fait sentir et permet de sortir des grands cols ou des très forts pourcentages avec l’assurance de savoir que cela “passera” …
Merci à tous et, bonnes routes,
Thierry (Schutz)

10-28-2012 at 20:18:23


Thanks for your input. The sequence of events are realistic, however the start scene I can’t grasp.

Someone mentioned it could be SM was hit by bullets from 25m away just as he arrived at the barrier. SM had to be close to SAH (blood spetters) and Zainab. If the BMW Estate was parked front end in first (location #1), perhaps killer X didn’t see the car and wasn’t aware of the SAH family.

Killer X had information SM would travel this route and in his anger and fury overlooked the presence of others.

Seen from the aerial photo and tracks of the arc, we know how the car moved to its final position (location #2).

SM was hit by the car and BM didn’t see severe wounds and moved SM away from the front of the car. BM saw girl first as he came near the parking lay-by and laid her aside in recovery position. BM saw the bike but had to move to the other side of the car and saw SM on the ground. Killer X must have dragged SM to the passenger side.

If killer wasn’t aware of the car and the family members, once SAH had reversed the car, killer X realized the women had seen the events and could identify him. In panic killer X executed the persons would couldn’t defend themselves. He returned to a severely wounded SM dragged him to a sitting position, vented his anger and shot him twice through the head. He had no ammo left and beat the girl with the butt of his pistol and left.

Did the RAF guy Brett Martin work at the Royal Air Force intelligence gathering center at Menwith Hill at Harrogate in North Yorkshire?

10-28-2012 at 20:20:05

This must be a comment left by SM’s father-in-law? Yes cycling is one of the favorite sports in the region.

10-28-2012 at 20:28:19


Yes, it is a comment by the father-in-law-to-be on a “velo”-discussion site.

10-28-2012 at 20:42:43

@Lars, can you be sure it’s him ? Nevertheless may confirm that he knew the route.

Earlier, it was said that the gunman was likely to be 20/35, my guess would be nearer the older end of that spectrum or older.

Imagination running wild, M. Schutz was very disappointed when his daughter (trained to be involved in the family pharmacist business) got herself pregnant by a much older married man. May even have been engaged to someone else, I won’t g back over that !

Said married man ended his relationship badly with the wife and then the complicated situation with two boys to look after has caused friction with the family and of course the new Mum. M.Schutz is distressed to find his daughter being treated so badly, add the rest…. love & rage.

10-28-2012 at 20:47:07
10-28-2012 at 20:58:19


Yes, I am very sure. His facebook site is here:

10-28-2012 at 21:01:11
10-28-2012 at 21:03:28

P.S. : I think I am right also about the facebook site. It is not available for me so I can’t check, but I am pretty sure.

10-28-2012 at 21:05:51

I can open it, Facebook page owner. I’ll look closer at friends.

I’ve also picked up Thierry Schutz on the Velo101 site, where there were tributes to Sylvain Mollier

10-28-2012 at 21:15:51

Guests arrived for dinner … must go … will say have a peaceful night.

10-28-2012 at 21:17:04

@Lynda: I wouldn’t put a dime in this theory of the feuding exes. Quite rare nowadays. Besides, SM’s elder children seem to be in a “garde alternée” type of custody, meaning sharing their time between their father and mother. In France, judges rule this kind of custody only when the parents live nearby one to the other AND get along fine regarding most major issues re their kids.

10-28-2012 at 21:28:16


I’ve already said this, personal experience.

I did say imagination running wild…

I believe this is a local crime with a personal motive or just a gun nut who fancied an afternoon of live targets. All the Al-Hilli claims are just muddying the waters, I trust EM is questioing again the driver of the Forestry Vehicle that stopped the motorcycle fro being off-piste, can’t believe they can say nothing about it.

@Lars, I’ve had a look at the Facebook page and those of his friends, most seem to be under or around 40 and a few cyclists, so could it be his sons page ? I only know a rare few that have a Facebook page that are over 60 years old – that is a personal comment.

10-28-2012 at 21:33:04

@Mrs Nitribitt – thanks for that link

I think Mr al-Saffar is right – the girls should be with their closest family, especially after what they have just gone through.

10-28-2012 at 21:46:32

yes, I do think so as well. But – at the same time I don’t understand that, at least Zainab, is in danger, as she might have seen the killer…
I, on my part, estimated her being in a “safe-house” with at least one member of her family.
Doesn’t look like that- so she didn’t see anything??

10-28-2012 at 21:48:52


I could give you a list as long as you want with recent killings, where the motive was feuding exes. It is of course often one person that can’t accept that they are abandoned by his/hers partner.


Well, I am not sure about the facebook site, but I think still that is probable his site. No female friends?

10-28-2012 at 22:01:32

I also agree with Mr. al-Saffar. The british authorities could perhaps use this opportunity to improve their relation with the muslim community in Britain. I can’t but notice the discrepancy between how the english victims and the french victim, and their respective families are treated in this case.

Perhaps also Mr. al-Saffar is reading this blog. 🙂

10-28-2012 at 22:10:42

It wouldn’t surprise me now if it turns out that also the killer is a cycling fan.

10-28-2012 at 23:40:21

10.28.2012 23:33

I don’t know if you all already have done this, but I spent the evening going up and down Route du Moulin and Chemin Rural dit la Grande Combe in Google street view:,Route+du+Moulin,+74210+Doussard,+France&sa=X&ei=gKeNUPyME-Gh4gS1oICgDA&ved=0CCQQ8gEwAA
Even though it is photographed in the wintertime I think you can imagine what the family saw as they came driving. Sad that Google hasn’t also photographed Route Forestiere to Martinet.

10-28-2012 at 23:59:42

It is my impression that Killer X first shot SM (as now is put forward as fact, ballistics) but also that Killer X ‘waited’ for SM to arrive!

Assume Killer X was hiding/waiting in the woods to ‘ambush’

Asbush who?

3 Possibilities (4 infact)

1. Anyone unlucky to be present at Martine (the ‘nutter’ killing)
2. SM
3. AH’s
4. SM + AH’s (the ‘meeting’ theory)

Now we must eliminate the posibilities.

First we eliminate nr 4. There was no meeting. There is simply NO evidence of a meeting. And if there was a ‘meeting’ Would Zainab go out with her father to greet SM while doing ‘nuclear’ business????

Now we eliminate nr 3. Without a ‘meeting’ it is very very hard for Killer X to be at Martinet without even knowing if AH will go there? Tehre is simply NO evidence that AH ‘planned’ to go there. And without a ‘planing’ Killer X can’t ambush

Now it becomes interesting. 1. or 2. ???

I have to eliminate …. 1. 🙂

Surely Killer X was already in the woods for his ‘ambush’. And for SURE he did see the AH’s arriving, parking and AH and Zainab getting out the car (for some reason, prolly a ‘normal’ reason like checking the sign or whatever) … BUT Killer X dos NOT strike!!!! He simply DOES NOT come forward and shoot AH and Zainab!!!

This can ONLY be explained if Killer X was indeed ‘waiting’ for SM!!!

I know, you can see it differently, because it IS a play of seconds. But these ARE the facts. AH and Zainab were already OUTSIDE the car (more than a few neters, because ‘they runned back to the car’) and Killer X didn’t strike.

It IS possibible that Killer X saw a glimpse of SM arriving and he ‘hestiated’ a moment to think again how to strike as a ‘nutter’

… But we can put forward a logic by which we can ‘decide’ (if we have enough data)

The logic is as follows:

IF AH and SM arrived about the saem time THEN option 1 and 2 are possible

IF however SM arrives much later (say 3 minutes) than AH THEN option 1 is eliminated and are we SURE that Killer X was indeed waiting for SM!

So, the timeline is CRUCIAL. And it is ZAINAB who can pinpoint this. If ZAINAB can indicate how long they were at the parking (she outside with her father) before the shooting startd (arrival SM) then we can use that info.

* * *

CONCLUSION: So, to recap, if Zainab says they were there already ‘some minutes’ ->-> SM was the TARGET! and the killing is not done by a ‘Nutter’ but the answer will be found in the ‘circle’ of SM!

* * *

10-29-2012 at 00:07:58

Hmmm, and IF zainab declares that the AH’s were already at Martinet ‘a few minutes’, which then points to ‘SM as target’ ….

… it can fast forward the case … because WHO exactly knew the route which SM would take?? This as to be a really ‘inner circle’ thing. But he might have told his plan (route) to feloow bikers, friends or collegues. I dunno. But to a limited group for sure.

10-29-2012 at 00:42:26

Alert …
SPY GADGETS – as with most other forms of surveillance, tracking someone without their consent is illegal. Real-time GPS trackers relay its location, timestamp, direction and speed information back to a central server so that the tracker can be monitored remotely. This information is usually sent back using GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) over the mobile phone networks and can be accurate up to 5 to 10 metres.

I don’t ever want to hear you didn’t know SM’s location or only his father-in-law knew the route he would take. Just a tiny instrument, same for SAH’s car or BM’s mountainbike. Didn’t EM reveal the gps trackers were found? Perhaps next vryday, not all at once. Following dots on a computer screen or iPhone.

10-29-2012 at 00:44:28

@M – someone has said it was the first time he took the route, suggested by his father-in-law, so yes someone knew, this is also mentioned on the Velo101 site/Ugine Cycle Club.

If you are on Facebook, play with the names given in the last thread that are the relatives listed on the ‘death notice’ – I think I’ve found three, not that it gives anything to help us armchair sleuths.

Did you look at Lars TF1 link ?

10-29-2012 at 00:53:59

@Oui – a GPS is used to plot your travelling route inside the car, I have one, my OH has one, I call mine Mrs Mio, she tells me how to get to y destination and how long it should take, it isn’t a tracker …..

What was found in the car was a navigation system no doubt with a European mapping system installed. Pretty inocuous really and often wrong when it tries to send you down a one way street the wrong way and lorries along roads where they get stuck because they’re not wide enough.Many have been caught out by being directed along a route that goes no where, think about it.

10-29-2012 at 00:57:35


Known in the UK as a ‘SatNav’ – satellite navigation, do you have one ?

10-29-2012 at 01:45:11

I would very much like to know EXACTLY where BM saw ‘SM ahead of him’. I’m always assuming this is at the 3,3 km ‘sign’. But I never read anything concrete about this. Any suggestions? Did EM/BM made extra comments about this?

10-29-2012 at 06:26:02

@ Oui
“@Marilyn Z… If there would have been a link to Saddam’s fortune, it would have been discovered aeons ago when the sanction were put in place and certainly after March 2003 as new software programs were put in place to track and locate all transactions and funds from Saddam and Baath party leadership.”
“Did I mention, primarily the NSA, GCHQ and the RAF Menwith Hills station [link photo] in are able to crack the most sophisticated encryption, this includes the Blackberry. Of course these messages automaticaly gains their attention. Sometimes even their own are murdered never to be solved Gareth Williams Murder – Cheltenham GCHQ/ NSA Spy Thriller.”

One of the many speculations on Gareth Williams death was he had devised a method of tracking the Russian Billionaire/Mobsters money laundering operations.

10-29-2012 at 06:54:22

@ Visiteur
“This would explain WBM’s panic, which definitely sounds out of place. A man of his training does not act in such a panicky way. He did not have nerves of steel – the killer had nerves of steel! It would also explain his reported terror: he knew he was the target and/or he is guilt-ridden as he failed in his assignment and/or he was terrorized he or his family might be the next target.”

A good explanation. With or without training, persons who happen upon an accident or shooting or murder do not usually panic, unless they know one of the victims. People ordinarily assist, do CPR, stop bleeding, call for help, etc., in a mostly calm manner. BM knew one or all of SM, the SAHs, or even the killer. Perhaps he was much nearer the lay-by then he said, heard shots, stopped, said WTF?, then when he thought it might be safe continued up. For some reason he can’t reveal he knew somebody.

10-29-2012 at 07:00:30

“Saffar dismissed speculation about a row over the will of Saad al-Hilli’s father: “I think this was ridiculous, this is not something unique to the al-Hilli family. Some differences arose after the father’s death, but the family are civilised people, they are not solving their problems in this brutal way.””

This somewhat contradicts what Zaid Al Hilli said – that there was no disput

10-29-2012 at 08:02:30

@Mrs. N.

Thanks for link, I find it morbid you are using Rosemary’s surname on this blog, it’s gut wrenching. Why not use her pseudonym Countess Maritza, would have been smart and more elegant.

Heartbreaking, girls still separated from close relatives

(Guardian) – Saffar said Surrey county council, which has placed the orphaned sisters in foster care, should return the children to the family. “Their suffering and pain continues on top of what pain and suffering they have experienced,” he said.

“They should be with their family to give them some comfort and we see that every time we meet them.”

Saffar, who saw the children with their aunt last weekend, said: “It was hard to see Zainab, to hear her ask why our meetings are so short.”

Their aunt is seeking guardianship of the two surviving children from the attack. Saffar said: “The social services can see these two girls want to be with their aunt.” The foster parents were not Muslims, he added, and the sisters were “deprived of being in an environment which is the same as [provided] by their parents, in regards of religion and culture”.

Dr. Ahmad Al-Saffar about prosecutor Eric Maillaud: “I think he should hand it over to someone else to do a better job.”

Balsam al-Hilli from Najaf, Iraq – has offered money for support of the children.

10-29-2012 at 08:11:46

More details about the Swiss bak account from Le Journal De Dimanche:

10-29-2012 at 08:35:15


re-Route Forestiere to Martinet

Get a copy of Worldwind:

If any of you want a better view of the terrain and roads than you get with Google Earth try:

A bit fiddly to work with at first, I have Martinet at: lat 45.7289 & lon 6.2242, elev 804, note the sawmill is at elev 554m, a climb of 250m over 3kms.

Ancien Combe d’Ire is an excellent escape route.

Parking Martinet is on the first part of a switchback, after the parking the road turns sharply left (after the barrier), the road is then above the parking bay, about 20m away throUgh the trees. Ancien Combe d’Ire joins the road here.

10-29-2012 at 08:58:06

Monday, October 29 – Just read in.

British Welfare’s actions are often incomprehensible. Of course, they should let the two Al-Hilli girls live with their aunt. However, they may be safer in a foster home. The foster parents have probably been chosen carefully with security in mind.

@Mrs. Nitribitt I agree with you: Zainab had seen the killer and would be able to identify him/her (why not a woman?).

Until later … Ghr, it’s Monday.

10-29-2012 at 09:26:53

I am not at all surprised the girls are in foster care. Officially, for security reasons. Let’s not forget that their relatives are still under investigation. But I bet that the true reason why Z. & Z. are in foster care – and certainly it will not be with any standard foster family – is that “investigators” are still on the watch out of any scrap of information the girls will, gradually, reveal. By their words, or drawings, or nightmares, whatever. A child cannot just be interviewed once or twice, and say everything she knows, because this is not how a child’s psyche works. Most probably the foster family is instructed to collect ANY kind of information coming from the girls at any moment, and pass it on to whoever is giving the instructions. Something their family will certainly not do: they will sieve through what the girls let out and will choose to reveal only what they think is not detrimental to the girls/the family. In other words, the foster family is neutral (and specially trained for this type of mission) while the family, even though caring relatives, is far from being neutral in this affair, and quite understandably so. Also, in other words, investigators’s prime goal is not the girls’ welfare – which is to be in familiar surroundings – but the progress of the investigation (or its going where they want it to go …?). Relatives of the girls must have been really upset that they could not celebrate together properly the Aid feast, which was just a few days ago.

10-29-2012 at 10:25:00

@Pete R.

Great find

Yup, a bit fiddly, possibly too fiddly for the laymen but I can handle it no problem:)

10-29-2012 at 10:28:31

Pete R.

If you chceck/uncheck the views you will see that the images come from MS Virtual Earth Aerial (Bing) … just for the record:)

10-29-2012 at 10:33:15

@ OUI re; Killer X had information SM would travel this route and in his anger and fury overlooked the presence of others. i do not agree with you that the killer knew the route that SM was going to take as you remember when SM girl friend went to the police said that this was a new route

10-29-2012 at 10:40:40

10.29.2012 10:38

After I went driving up and down Route du Moulin and Chemin Rural dit la Grande Combe last evening, I kept thinking about what I saw.

I guess I have rather romantic memories of what the french countryside looks like. I had imagined views as those you can see further down in Chevaline, Arnand och Doussard. The outskirts of Chevaline look however quite different, pretty scruffy, half derilict houses, junk lying around. Not exactly inviting.

I remember that we had a discussion earlier on about why the family went up the Route Forestiere. Someone (was it Max?) said that it wasn’t a place you took your family for a sightseeing tour, I and other members disagreed. I thought that a trip up to the forrest and mountains could be a nice break in the daily routine.

Now when I see what it looks like, before you arrive at the “dangerous road”-sign, I think I would also have turned around. It probably looks much more inviting on a sunny day in the beginning of September than on a cold day in February, but still.

The Route Forestiere still looks quite nice on the available photographs, but I now think, that either was the family recommended by someone to make that trip, or they must have regarded it as some sort of (exciting) “expedition”.

These sights also strengthen my view that the killer must be someone who knows this environment very well. I can’t imagine some outsider
finding his way in such a remote place, and I think that any secret agent driving up these desolate roads in Chevaline would say “-This is not our territory, let’s get back to the bar in Annecy”.

I think it is also interesting to take a special look at Route du Moulin. It is a very narrow “road”. I think it would be very difficult for two cars to meet. Part of the road is actually an “alley” with hairpin curves, between half-derilict houses (the old mill?). I don’t think you can drive much faster than 30 km/hr there. Since the houses are standing so close to the road I guess the risk/possibility that anyone travelling along the road is noticed is very high.

10-29-2012 at 11:10:21

@ Oui: re my nick: should be somekind of a “tribute” to this still unsolved murder… together with our work here………
But if you’re so embarassed I don’t mind to opt for the more elgant one…

@ visitor:
Good psychological statement, well done!

10-29-2012 at 11:13:29

@Marilyn Z. @Visiteur

I have become an expert over the last 5 years about guardianship and the so-called child welfare services in the Netherlands. The child of 14 months was “abducted“ by the biological father as my daughter was recovering from PPD. He banned the child’s mother from seeing and caring for the child, sued for divorce and as a lawyer himself knew all the tricks to win the first hearing in family court scheduled within 8 days. The temporary decision would be revised after 3 months, child welfare should have investigated the facts within that period. The institution due to “workoverload” started their investigation after 14 months. Due to delaying tactics by the father the final family court decision came when the child was 3 years old.

The child is now 6 years. Because I am my daughters “chauffeur”, I see my grandchild every week and spend many hours with him. The suffering of the child for the limited days with the biological mother is heartbreaking. I know how important it is for the child to be in a surrounding were there is love and especially trust. He has been expressing his feelings and thoughts to me when he is troubled. We have gone through a 5 year period of litigation, mediation, etc. and I am considering a further appeal to the Dutch high court and to the ECHR in Strasbourg. The government run system is rotten, inefficiënt and tramples on the rights [Dutch report by Movisie] of all persons involved. The children would confide more information to the Al Saffar family than any foster parent or professional child forensics psychologist. I have seen and met them all in the last 5 years. But, for the recovery from trauma it is important to bring Zeena and Zainab to their kin. In Iragi culture the family structure is very tight knit and trustworthy. Our western culture could learn from them.

10-29-2012 at 11:19:40

@ M : RE: 3 Possibilities (4 infact)
1. Anyone unlucky to be present at Martine (the ‘nutter’ killing)
2. SM
3. AH’s
4. SM + AH’s (the ‘meeting’ theory) your 4th possibility is definitely there and i think there was a meeting if you go to the picture of the car and zoom it in you will see SM cap on the front windscreen Which i mentioned it before long time ago and i think he was sitting in the car when the killing started don’t rely on all you read from the press …..

10-29-2012 at 11:24:27

@ Marilyn RE: diamonds you can always pay a visit to Hatton Gardens 🙂

10-29-2012 at 11:32:39

@Oui: very sorry for you and your family that you have to go through all this.

I am not condoning the fact that the children should be in foster care, but merely observing how it might be considered by the authorities. I also think the girls would be better off with their relatives.

10-29-2012 at 11:42:35


The cap is really wel spotted bu I don’t belive for a moment it is SM’s

SM was a fanatic biker. I’m 98% sure he wore a helmet such as this

I’m a biker myself (home-work on a very fast electric bike avg 30-35 km/h) and I decided to always wear a helmet. I am sure ANY well thinking racebiker will wear one, esp. when taking such difficult roads.

… If SM did wear a helmet he couldn’t have had a cap. Perhaps he took the cap with him. Possibly but I dont think so.

Anyway, is there a referecen to a helmet? And btw did BM wear a helmet? I guess he must have done so seeing this

10-29-2012 at 11:47:38


Very, very interesting. I hoped to have a chance myself to walk and/or ride the same routes. From the onset, I also said it was not a route for sightseeing or a panoramic view. There are better places to have a panoramic view as I have posted. The village Lathuile for example and the high grounds. You must conclude no local would recommend this route. Would you consider this route attractive for a $5,000 race bike with small tubes used by Sylvain Mollier? How was the route beyond the hairpin turn in the direction of Col de Chérel? Were there more “tourists” like yourself and how busy was the route for cars, cyclists or hikers when you spend time there on Sunday?

Did you check out the smaller escape route taken by a motorbike leaving Arnand on the Chemin de la Combette >> Chemin rural du Pré des Granges à Ugeret >> Chemin rural dit Ancien chemin de la Combe d’Yre ending in a track leading to the hairpin turn beyond Martinet parking?

Thanks for sharing.

10-29-2012 at 11:48:09

@ M you might be right about helmet but maybe when the weather is hot they don’t wear them we are not sure that he wore one so i will resend the SM photo you will see is the same cap he is wearing on these pictures let me go and find them again ..

10-29-2012 at 11:53:41


Thank you. As grandparent it is well compensated by the love shared every week and the fond and close relationship with him. We have a lot of fun traveling together by car to his school and experiencing nature and changes in the seasons. He is a bright, lovely child and very wise for his age.

10-29-2012 at 11:58:21
10-29-2012 at 11:59:31
10-29-2012 at 12:02:01

@ M, shushu

I am fairly confident that SM did not wear a cap: 1. They trap heat on your head far more than a cycling helmet does. 2. Baseball caps get blown off your head on fast downhills (Remember those short-brimmed caps that earlier generations of cyclists wore? – The brim on a baseball cap is just too long to make it suitable for cycling).

Conversely, I believe that the fact that WBM failed to immediately spot that SM had been twice shot in the head can only be explained by SM wearing a helmet.

10-29-2012 at 12:04:49


Photo of Brett Martin. Of course in characteristic black of New Zealand. Where is his silver fern emblem? No chance to mistake his outfit with the colorful French CC Ugine cyclists.

10-29-2012 at 12:07:29


This photo has been debunked over and over, see previous thread. Is not our Sylvain Mollier.

10-29-2012 at 12:13:26 ref=386083&query=Momo because there is another Sylvain in that club they call him (momo)

10-29-2012 at 12:18:29

@Lars : Re: driving the route

Lars, did you do the drive virtually or in the flesh?

If the latter, did you take photos?

10-29-2012 at 12:19:10

Vinnemann denies that they have received any information from german intelligence pointing to a link between the AHs and Saddam:

10-29-2012 at 12:20:24

@Oui: re: Guardianship

I’m sorry to hear about this, and I am sorry for your grandson. I hope he will get through it unscathed.

10-29-2012 at 12:24:49

@Peter. Re: Vinnemann’s denial.

As Mandy Rice Davies said when Profumo denied he’d been a client of hers: “He would wouldn’t he.”

Vinneman would deny it. He can’t very well say that Le Monde was correct because it would mean that someone in his team had leaked info.

10-29-2012 at 12:29:25

@Mrs Nitribitt: Re your nick.

The word ‘nick’ is a new one for me. No, you choose your gravatar. Mrs. Nitribitt ‘works’ for me. I’ve never heard of her or her murder, by the way.

10-29-2012 at 12:34:57

@ OUI hopefully your grand son enjoys his time with you and is great to have them around i have 2 grandchildren but i see them every 2 years they live way away from me now regarding pictures it can be him because on the other club his nick name is momo sylvain mollier but because of the other sylvain they call him momo as for his surname mollier

10-29-2012 at 12:48:48


About the cap of SM …

… according to the timeline (and assuming the times at ‘sign’ are more or less correct and that ‘sign’ is where BM saw ‘SM ahead’) there is a max 5 minutes between SM and BM arriving at Martinet

Now, BM arrived 1-2 minutes AFTER the shooting. So max 4 minutes left
The shooting itself took 1 minute, so 3 minutes left
AH and SM (if he was IN the car) had to get out of the car and be ‘on the road, AH with Zainab’, another minute, so only 2 minutes left
AH + SM *IN* the car, the moment SM puts his cap on the dashboard, well at least 1 minute, so 1 minute left

1 minute? For SM to arrive, get off his bike, to go up to the BMW and get inside

… you see, the ‘time window’ makes it nearly impossible to ‘fit’ everything in


SM to arrive, get off his bike, into the BMW, cap off, talk, get out, be on the road, get shot, AH’s ‘reversed arc’, more killing, Zainab beaten up, Killer X escapes … 1-2 minutes silence. BM arrives ………. All this in max 5 minutes?

The cap is not SM’s

10-29-2012 at 12:53:52


re SM cap/helmet:
this SM on the pic is 99,99% not the victim!! Beside, Momo is a gemini (sign around neck) and the victim SM is supposed to be born in april. As well, I don’t think you can be a good and active hunter and a good and active cyclist at the same time.
Anyway- let’s take for granted that could be 2 man with only the same name, that dosen’t exclude the fact, that the item on the dasboard could be a bbcap as well as a helmet. In both cases it could belong to the victim SM….
@ Peter:
SM shot in head 2x and wearing a helmet: wouln’t the helmet be split? He (BM) didn’t mention anything, did he?
If I remember correctly, BM even tried to get his pulse…. If he got shot 7x plus taken by the car- I guess he was looking awfully… no mention to this in the press as well- as far as I remember.
@ Oui
From where do you know what SM/BM did wear this very day?
Was this mentioned by the MSM? Do you have a link for that? Thks!
BTW: IF (!! IF !!) there is one (ore even more than one) SS’s involved in the case I’d tend to think they would serve as anything they want – to make us believe “their” truth..
I personally wouldn’t be surprised too much if one day there would be a “scapegoat” for what had happended… like Zaid for example…
Just my opinion

10-29-2012 at 13:08:39

@Mrs. N

SM was shot 5 times in the body (iirc) and and (supposedly) at the end antoher 2 times in the head.

The 5 body shots didn’t hit his helmet and Imo the killer put the 2 headshots neatly below the helmet (SM was on the groud and Killer X had all the time to aim properly and not ‘spill’ precious bullets on a bullet in the helmet)

I can even imagine Killer X moving SM’s body so he could ‘place’ the headshots better.

Killer X was, imo, serious about this headshot thing. He used his last clip of 8 bullets on 4×2 headshots. Not something he wanted to F***U* by some helmet:)

10-29-2012 at 13:12:55

Hello @ Marylin

re nick: in my country, we say “nick” for a persons pseudonym in internet. Different in UK?

10-29-2012 at 13:24:43

The photo has been dismissed as being our SM all over the net blogs/forums.

He wasn’t out for an afternoon jolly, he was a serious cyclist, known for being a climber, he was already more than 20kms from home, I picked up a while back that apart from this being the first time he’d travelled the route, he was also deceived by it (trompé) – does this mean he’d called home to tell CS this ? Maybe to warn her it was going to take longer than he thought, he must have told someone whilst out if the statement is true.

I also said in the previous thread that had he been shot in the head it would have been through a helmet, please look at modern cycling helmets, they are like a net of plastic allowing air to circulate, easy to place a couple of shots between, also maybe SM was already dead, shot five times and dragged by a car, so the bleed would be less.

10-29-2012 at 13:38:18

@ M, Lynda

A bicycle helmet (consisting of styrofoam with a thin outer layer of plastic) would not sgnificantly slow down, deflect or deform a bullet. From the point of view of a killer armed with a handgun, it makes no difference whatsoever whether or not the victim wears one, or whether the bullet enters the victim’s head through the styrofoam or through one of the ventilation vents.

@ M

I think that you may be overdoing it a little by making the killer a headshot fetishist. We don’t know whether or not he really used the last mag on 4 x 2 headshots. That is merely an assumption on your part.

10-29-2012 at 13:41:54

@Oui and Marilyn

I must stress that I made these trips virtually in Google street view, with excellent photage.

I though hope to do it in real life also if this case is not solved before that.

I would also like to stress that we don’t know what kind of bicycle the french victim used that day. See also the comment by his father-in-law-to-be above on cycling in these mountains.

10-29-2012 at 13:44:38

@Mrs. Nitribitt. Re: Nick.

Usually we say pseudo. When we use the word ‘nick’ in English we mean ‘steal’, It is slang for ‘steal’.

I am intrigued by the Rosalie Nitribitt murder.

10-29-2012 at 13:47:27

@Peter, I was only trying to say that BM may not have seen headshots if they entered through the styrofoam, not that it would change the entry wound or damage, just possibly not so obvious as those of the victims in the car.

Who did SM call, was his mobile phone taken from his pocket ?

With regard to the suggestion that someone tried to use Khadims card to access the funds from the Swiss account some months ago – they will know in what country and for what purpose. Remember he was in Spain and someone was taking care of him, name has been mentioned somewhere, could they have tried to use it ?

10-29-2012 at 13:51:03

I am quite certain, that right now, in the Chevaline-Arnand-Doussard area, there is a lot of gossiping among family members and close friends, about these boys in neighbourhood that use to hang around that area on the outskirts of Chevaline, painting their graffiti tags on sheds, breaking into deserted houses, being generally up to no good, or this loner or odd fellow that uses to roam these roads and walk around these woods, nobody really knows what he is doing.

I wish they would speak up.

10-29-2012 at 13:58:26

The current issue of the French true crime magazine Le nouveau DETECTIVE (date October 24, 2012 #L19024) has Chevaline on its cover. Its headline is quite firm: Rebondissement dans LA TUERIE DE CHEVALINE. La vrai cible: C’etait le cycliste. (SM was the killer’s target.)

The mag has about 500 words across the bottom of pages 14 and 15. There is nothing new in what they are writing. It is just a rehash of what we already know.

The magazine does not have a website so if you type its name into a search engine it will probably open on to my site as this happens all the time. The reason is that I buy the mag each week to see what they are writing for my true crime writing and I often tag it. They get everything wrong. Their writers never verify anything.

10-29-2012 at 14:03:40

@ Lynda

Of course they will know where and how somebody tried to use Kadhim’s credit card. If this was an attempt to withdraw cash from an ATM with the card, whoever did it must have had the ATM-PIN for the card as well, which should narrow down the circle of suspects. The CVV code for “card not present”-transactions (e. g., online payments) is printed on the card itself, but that CVV does not work with ATMs.

What really intrigues me about this account in Geneva is the mere fact that there *was* a credit card attached to it, because that fact proves that it was a plain-vanilla current account, rather than a savings account, a term-deposit account or any other type of account that would pay even a little interest. I cannot sufficiently emphasize how unusual (and just plain stupid) it is to keep so much money in an account that yields almost zero interest.

Unlikely as that constellation may seem, this fact alone almost persuades me that the money wasn’t KAH’s own, that he really could have held it in trust for somebody …

10-29-2012 at 14:13:29

I have all along had great trouble with scenarios where the family arrived first at the lay-by Martinet, but maybe there is solution that even I could accept. 🙂

Somebody suggested earlier that maybe the killer didn’t come by Chevaline, but from the mountains, and that could offer a solution!

So, if the killer was somehow informed which route the french cyclist was going that day. If the killer, also a cycling fan, chose to go in the other direction from e.g. Albertville. He was then pretty sure that he would meet his victim somewhere along that route. If the killer didn’t meet him before Route Forestiere he might have planned to wait for him there.

Now what happened was that when the killer just had passed the “barrier” he saw the victim from a distance coming in the other direction. The killer then had a good view over the road so he could very well think that they were alone. However the lay-by and the car was hidden by the shrubbery along the road.

The killer aims and shoots at a fairly large distance. The french victim is hit but he has, having a better view, of course seen the car and family, so he might try to escape by seeking help and protection behind the car.

The killer now to late discovers the car and the family, and the rest we know…

The main point here is that the killer is not waiting at Martinet, he also arrives just at that moment.

10-29-2012 at 14:17:34

New article in Daily Mail just come on line, I despair.

I’ve also seen SM described as a welder, fits into a comment posted on a French News site after the article describing him as a ‘fondeur’, not long after the deaths.

To me this makes it less likely he was involved in anything of a secret nature, also through Facebook, I believe I’ve found two of the brothers and a on, one of the former having friends working in Ugitech etc.

10-29-2012 at 14:25:53

Wow, I go away for 2 days and look at all the developments! It will take a while for me to catch up, but if I am reading the articles correctly they now suspect a psychopath from a mental hospital and seperately, Zaid attempted to use a debit card. Both developments are things we came up with here two weeks ago. Wow, I may ask the people here to find my missing car keys too…

10-29-2012 at 14:32:34


as rva524 have said much of the press articles we have talked about weeks ago. I questioned how could someone try to use a card without the correct pin, unless they had it but the account had been suspended due to Kadhims death, they’d been informed by the Al-Hillis, so the account isn’t secret at all.

I do get what you say about the account would then need to be a ‘current account’, which seems odd, but didn’t Khadim suffer from Parkinsons, so highly unlikely to be able to travel from Spain to Switzerland to access money, just a thought. If the family didn’t know about the account, they may well have fund details in his papers after his death. I wonder how he was paying for his healthcare, nuring home care?

10-29-2012 at 14:33:35

re: cycling helmets & caps

When cycling in France in the mountains I would always wear a cycling cap in preference to a helmet when going uphill. Two reasons it keeps your head from being burnt by the sun and two it keeps the sweat from running into your eyes. I find a helmet very hot & uncomfortable on any extended climb. There was a period when racing cyclists were excused compulsory helmets for hard climbs in Le Tour.

It is also quite possible to wear a cycle cap under a helmet – I do this in the UK sometimes to keep the rain out my eyes.

I’ve no idea what the thing on the car dash is.

10-29-2012 at 14:34:09


You know, the journalists first read this blog and then they write the articles.
Isn’t that right guys?

10-29-2012 at 14:44:57


It may be an ‘assumption’ but I do backup it with ‘facts’

1. fact is that Killer X did NOT kill BM, although we know for sure BM was very close (probaly THE reason why Killer X abandonned the scene)

2. There is elegance in 4×2=8. Suppose there were only 3 adults. Would Zainab have survived?

3. 2 headshot for SM, already dwoned by 5 shots is ‘overkill’ Killer X could easily have ‘reserved’ 1 last bullet for Zainab (by spending ony 1 headshot bullet for SM) … but he didn’t

Suppose Killer X was a ‘nutter’ with another extra clip of 8. Would you think BM would have survived??

I assume Killer X did spend all his bullets wisely. I tknik he was very well aware of the ammo count and what to do with it. The 4×2 headshots is a statement … if not for the AH’s than certainly for the already down and broken SM.

My assumptions yes, but I’ll stick with them until something ‘better’ comes along:)

10-29-2012 at 14:52:04
10-29-2012 at 14:57:23

@Lars Re: You know, the journalists first read this blog and then they write the articles.
Isn’t that right guys?

Right right right, Lars.

10-29-2012 at 15:06:59

@bleb re: caps v. helmets

You all must have seen in newsreels and on photos that soldiers in some part of the world wear floppy hats and not helmets.

When I asked a former mercenary why this was he told me that, in the bush, soldiers are on foot, and to be able to hear the enemy approach one can not wear a helmet; a helmet deafens footsteps. The floppy hat was accordingly ‘invented’ by the South African army in its wars on its borders with Mozambique, Angola and Namibia.

10-29-2012 at 15:13:00

@Lars : re; more graphics

Lars, it is great you having found these. We were just speaking yesterday of the lack of graphics and that a paper should give us some. I’ve saved these.

10-29-2012 at 15:13:44

@M : re; backing up with facts.

You do, Max. You’ve been really great filling us in with info.

10-29-2012 at 15:14:55

@Lynda Re; new article DM

Thanks Lynda. You are all great the way you are finding reports.

10-29-2012 at 15:19:11

@ Lars
re your last link:
How on earth did SAH get stained with SM’ blood on his throusers??

General question: There hadn’t been any news available to the public for quite a long time. (rumors said, there is/had been a D-notice) Why the sudden change now?

10-29-2012 at 15:33:37


Maybe he stumbled up towards the car, from the road, after he had been shot.

General question: personally I think some investigators are very frustrated and are willing to leak, it could also be as Marilyn wrote earlier, that also the newspaper people are frustrated and start to “invent” stories.

10-29-2012 at 15:50:54

The ‘Bild’ article is everywhere ! French TV, online newspapers. Think about what the uncle has said, complained to Maillaud that any developments should be put to the family before he reads about it in the press.

Maillaud then denies everything printed – is this not the media as a whole trying to force Maillaud into another press conference, 8 weeks after the incident ?

That poor family, having their lives put under a microscope for something that if it is true, they are unlikely to have known about.

10-29-2012 at 16:10:36

Second interview by Brett Martin on Sky News

Most revealing! Describes use of area by cyclists and hikers, he himself had been up there over the years 10 to 20 times, also with family. On mountain bike, from Chevaline it’s a 30 min. ride. BM is much more relaxed.

Link to article – Alps Murders: Witness describes his awful dilemma and to VIDEO

10-29-2012 at 16:12:06


No I don’t think of ‘poor family’ AH. If something like this happens it is normal the investigators will check every mm/inch

But having said this, I expect the same thoroughness towards SM. Ans there is (perhaps) a problem.

The AH’s are all over the press, bu SM? Nope hardly anything.

Even that doesn’t explain everything because we have learned (from info fom Marylin and others) that the french and english have a totally different approach in their respective investigation.

I sure hope EM and his team of ‘investigators’ really DO check every mm/inch of SM’s background.

I do find it was weird of EM to point at the ‘solution to be found in the UK’ very early on after the killings. I dunno WHY he stated this, but this was an error of judgement (perhaps intentionally!)

I think in the end this case will be solved. There for sure must be ‘a will to solve’ this case amongst a lot of ‘investigators’. It is their job AND their pride! They at least owe it to the 2 girls.

@Investigators: Just use your ‘will to solve’ and arrange/move ‘pieces’ until they fit. There *IS* a unique solution to this puzzle. NOW SOLVE IT!

10-29-2012 at 16:34:37

@ the native speakers re the BM interviews
There are 3 different ones available.
I believe 2 BBS, 1 Sky
If you watch all 3 you might realize his different statements quiete a few times.

Does anyone have a source where one can READ the 3 interviews.. as that is easier as to listn to.

@ M:
I agree. Is the British press not allowed to talk about SM?
Jesus, what a mess.
Or is that homemade (mess) ???
I also thought 2 weeks ago of the sudden appearance of the Savile Story. Might be same distraction too, hm??
Just about the same time….
(gonna send you a link I’ve found re this topic- be back soon)

10-29-2012 at 16:39:56
10-29-2012 at 17:36:23

@ M thank you for the link but i think you should make another chart on the basis that BM is not saying the whole truth if as you said you might think that SM was the target then it will take a stupid man to go to that place to meet anybody while he knows that he passed BM and BM is on his way to the same place so therefore who knows that BM saw SM and said i taught the cyclist who overtook me was resting this to me is very silly you have drawn your chart on the words of BM and another thing is that when they said AH stopped for taking picture i think he stopped to make sure that he was no followed but as an engineer and probably an intelligent man being satspy technologie he should better know that these days is very easy to pin point his car by shooting a device from distance to the car and locating the position of the car … i think BM was following SM from distance and SM didn’t know about that also it might be an idea that AH had some equipments in his caravane that had to be connected to some device held by SM this is why he took the caravan with the family to not raise suspicions and he knew well that he was under surveillance since ages ago SM was under surveillance too but maybe he didn’t realised and the killer was waiting to have both of them at the same time they wanted to be sure that those guys were up to something before getting rid of them this is my scenario

10-29-2012 at 17:41:21

Marilyn my comment disappeared it was a sort of another scenario but never made it to this site

10-29-2012 at 17:46:36

@ Peter- do you have any info on a “luger” p06 that the recent articles quote as the murder weapon?

10-29-2012 at 17:47:06

@Shushu: Disappearing comment.

I didn’t touch it, Shushu. Can’t explain why it disappeared. Can you rewrite it for us.

10-29-2012 at 17:49:06

@ MRS NIT thank you for the link interesting

10-29-2012 at 17:52:59


To be (off-topic) or not to be (off-topic) ???

What do you mean?

10-29-2012 at 17:53:07

I am confused. There is just one BM interview. This is the interview he gave to the BBC. The Sky News interview is the BBC’s interview.

10-29-2012 at 17:55:26

@ rva524

I’m sorry, but I have to rush. Just google “Ordonnanzpistole 1906”, or just “Pistole 1906”. There are later variants known as 1906/24 and 1929.

10-29-2012 at 18:12:08

sure i will it was to M that i wrote but also for everybody first i thank him for sending me the link for the timing ( the chart ) then it continued almost like this M i think your should make another chart discarding the timing of BM are you sure that he is telling the whole truth regarding and as you said it further up that now you think that SM was the main target then it will take a stupid man to go to a meeting and knowing that has overtook a cyclist and he would reach him in few minutes time even if he had a meeting with the ex of his girl friend which i doubt it then who knows that BM saw SM to overtake him is only his word when he said as i approached that area i taught the cyclist who overtook me was resting this is what we assume because he said it now regarding AH i think he had some sophisticated equipment in his caravan and was to be fitted with something that SM had in his position and taking the whole family with him was to cover up what he had in his van don’t forget that he had a shed in his garden as a work shop when he stopped to take a picture it was to make sure that he was not followed him being in satspy he knew that he was under supervision since ages ago so the rest i leave it to all of you to see what you think about this is almost what i wrote before and now is gone it might reappear this site has become weird maybe all of our computers is supervised 🙂

10-29-2012 at 18:13:05
10-29-2012 at 18:30:57

Alexander has disappeared too have to go will catch up later

10-29-2012 at 18:41:32

“Latest French reports suggest the massacre was committed by a mentally deranged killer riding a black motorcyle with saddlebags armed with a Luger pistol”

Ok, so I’m guessing that the description is that of the bike that was stopped and told to leave the area? Still seems strange to me that there was an encounter of some type with someone who now may be a suspect, yet we have so little information. Obviously there would be some description available, such as approximate age, complexion, language spoken…

10-29-2012 at 18:56:36

@ Marilyn

Yes, there is only one interview with the RAF man. But there are a number of cuts. The Sky interview mentioned above is not the same cut as the one called BBC full interview. It is very confusing.
Since we seem to be able to wish things here and they turn up tomorrow in the media, could I perhaps ask for an uncut interview with the RAF man from BBC or Sky?

PS: Where is investigator Alexander?

10-29-2012 at 18:59:25

@rva524 “Latest French reports suggest the massacre was committed by a mentally deranged killer riding a black motorcyle with saddlebags armed with a Luger pistol”

I think the journalist has mixed everything together and made a mess of things!

10-29-2012 at 19:10:14

@Marilyn Z.

A part that was shown on the Sun – Sky News link was new to me. I see the length of this interview is 12:49 min., longer than the “original” BBC interview – link – which is 10:28 min. in length!

10-29-2012 at 19:23:46

@oui It’s totally incredible . I have found a game where the gambler is describing himself as driving a moto and having a luger p06 the date is may 2011 .

@marylin I am following this thread since the beginning THANK YOU for the real pleasure you give me

10-29-2012 at 19:26:54

@ Lars @rva524 “Latest French reports suggest the massacre was committed by a mentally deranged killer…”

I fully agree with Lars as soon as I read the link provided by Lynda to Daily Mail story.

Just in: Daily Mail has changed the earlier headline ”Police believe psychopath mental hospital” to …
‘Hide!’ Final words of Alps massacre mother whose last action was to undo her four-year-old daughter’s seatbelt

10-29-2012 at 19:31:31


You haven’t found any links to the exwife on Facebook? I have a couple of “suspects” but have not been able to establish with any security, who is the right one.

10-29-2012 at 19:46:00


Above is the link to the dm article. It is a rehash of the Le Monde article with a fresh detail about how Mrs. Al-Hilli told the 3-year-old to ‘hide’. Odd that Le Monde would have omitted this detail. As for EM saying that it was a lone crazy killer. The DM does not say when he said this and to whom. This is called ‘clever journalism’. The DM had nothing new to go on and concocted a story. The editor must have been shouting at the foreign editor to get something new on the Al-Hillis and he was shouting down the line at the reporter to stop sitting on his hands because the editor wants a story.

10-29-2012 at 19:47:27

@Oui : re: DM changing their headline.

Read what I wrote about the DM’s ‘revelation’ and you will understand what has happened.

10-29-2012 at 19:49:18

@Kabou : Re: the pleasure we are giving you.

Unfortunately 4 people died and two small girls have had their lives turned upside down.

Welcome to our discussion.

10-29-2012 at 19:51:15

@Oui : Re: Sky and BBC

BBC cut their interview. You can see that underneath Sky’s sign there is the BBC’s sign. I’ve just watched the two too.

10-29-2012 at 20:17:09

Your Comments

@marylin Re: I totally agree , it’s a very sad story and the pleasure of course has nothing to do with those two little girls

I would like some of you have a look at my link about this strange gambler , his pseudo is Otis Miller

10-29-2012 at 20:33:50

REF: BM interviews. I think the whole full-length interview included the interviewers questions, which were subsequently cut. The interviewer asked BM some quite crass insensitive questions which is why some of his replies seemed a bit sharp. The remainder has then been sound-bited to hell on various channels. I can’t remember where I heard the original but it would be radio 4UK probably.
I often ask myself what is behind the news we are fed. All the news at the moment is utterly soul-destroying. I have a very small sphere of influence personally but believe the globalisation of info on the internet etc. will eventually improve behaviour as it will no longer be possible to be clandestine. There may be light at the end of the tunnel for gender equality and respect for others, maybe even an end to wars and weopanry (I know . . I know).
PS. I can’t believe how many people in Switzerland still smoke. Yuk!

10-29-2012 at 20:40:58

On the RAF man interview:

Some parts at the beginning and end of the “full” BBC is cut away. The part at the end you can see in Sky interview, the part in the beginning was earlier available in another BBC cut (I can’t find it any longer).
I would guess that the full, unabridged interview, is something between 20-25 minutes long.
I would be nice with an unabridged version as a reference.

10-29-2012 at 21:15:47

@Kabou re: Otis Miller

What are you trying to make us understand? What are you trying to tell us.

10-29-2012 at 21:19:00

@j cave : re: BM interviews

Yes, the internet is destroying privacy for sure. Interesting what you say about the cutting of the BM interview. On the BBC transmission he appears nervous and uncertain whereas on the Sky one he is much more relaxed and confident. I wonder what the BBC wanted to make us believe.

10-29-2012 at 21:21:52

would this be the full interview

10-29-2012 at 21:25:11

About the BM interview: I just noticed something odd about this interview which finally dawned on me. In the beginning when he discusses the murderer, he refers to him in the singular (He this and He that) then at the end, he begins to refer to “them”. “They” this and they that. Specifically when talking about the type of person who would do it its “they”. Could it be that at the time (he says he had 6 hours of questioning, and witnessed the forensics) the police let it be known that there was only 1 shooter, but that they had information that it was an ordered assasination (therefore explaining the “they”) In other words, that one person did the shooting but multiple people responsible? Or is it just inadvertent on his part?

10-29-2012 at 21:30:23

@rva524 : re: BM interview – the ‘they’

When I watched the SKY NEWS version earlier this evening I also noticed that at first he said ‘he’ and then he said ‘they’. I wonder whether it was just a matter of speech or whether there was more to it.The interviewer did not catch on.

10-29-2012 at 21:32:09

@Shushu re:would this be the full interview

This BBC interview is 10.28 mins. I can’t watch it again,sorry,but I am sure someone else will be able to tell you.

10-29-2012 at 21:34:08

New commentator kabou is drawing our attention to a website. I’ve just gone on to it. It’s strange. Maybe kabout can explain to us how she discovered it and what she makes of it.

10-29-2012 at 21:34:14

@J Cave

‘I often ask myself what is behind the news we are fed’

– Don’t eat:)

10-29-2012 at 21:39:58


As I tried to explain above: in that “full” BBC interview, the beginning and the end of the unabridged interview is cut away

10-29-2012 at 21:43:28

I must rush. Will be back catching up on your thoughts.

10-29-2012 at 22:00:20

Lars is right. There are missing parts. Here you see BM enter the interview room

But is the unabridged version somewhere available?

10-29-2012 at 22:06:42

I have been thinking more about the scenario as it is depicted here:

In some parts in makes sense, though I think that they should have placed the shooter (le tireur) and the french cyclist on the road, not beside it.

As I wrote earlier I also think that the shooter should be standing farther away, not being able to see the car. As can seen on some pictures there is a small hill at that end of the lay-by, together with the shrubbery it would place the car out of sight from the shooter.

This scenario explains why the shooter hit the right rear window (which I didn’t understand earlier, see Le Monde article).

The father and the older daughter were probably looking at the information sign at that end of the lay-by, when the shooting began. That explains why he was able to reach the car, while she didn’t. He had the door beside hime, she had to run around the car.

The french cyclist is hit and stumbles, from the road, into the lay-by, towards the car.

The father is back in the car and put the car in reverse. Now it makes even more sense why he is turning that way, since he is then moving away from the shooter.

What is harder to explain in this scenario, is that the shooter has to be pretty fast. He is standing at the further end of the lay-by, but he is able to get to the car where it ends up at the other side of the lay-by, aim and shoot the persons inside.

There is also the casings that were found under the car. How could they have got there, when the shooter started from the other end of the lay-by?

10-29-2012 at 22:15:51


Here you go

(note tha lips and voice are not synchron- or I might be drunk)

10-29-2012 at 22:21:50

@ Lars:

I am here guys, alive and kicking!

Thanks for asking anyway, Lars!

10-29-2012 at 22:23:08


THAT IS A GREAT FIND!!!! Massive thx:)

@ALL. Essential viewing. The 2nd part of the BM interview (repost after Oui)

For me it is now clear. The guy is ok. I can’t see anything wrong here. BM=Truth

10-29-2012 at 22:30:11


Puh! I was getting a bit worried, but I see you have only updated your gravatar 🙂


You are being so very positive towards Mr. Brett, I am starting to be a little suspicious, that it must be something hidden here 🙂

10-29-2012 at 22:32:33
10-29-2012 at 22:47:52
10-29-2012 at 22:54:37

@shushu That reconstructiion is the wrong way around. As the cyclists approached the clearing it would have been on THEIR left.

10-29-2012 at 22:58:30

re: “he” vs “they” in WBM interview

Interesting but I’m not sure “they” necessarily implies more than one person.

From my Shorter Oxford Dictionary:
They (meaning number 4)
“In relation to a singular noun or pronoun of undetermined gender: he or she. (Considered erron. by some.)”

I’m a native British English speaker and I often use “they” in this way (I suspect WBM was doing the same).

Having said that I would not be surprised if there was more than one person involved.

10-29-2012 at 23:01:22

“… What is harder to explain in this scenario, is that the shooter has to be pretty fast. He is standing at the further end of the lay-by, but he is able to get to the car where it ends up at the other side of the lay-by, aim and shoot the persons inside.

There is also the casings that were found under the car. How could they have got there, when the shooter started from the other end of the lay-by?”

More than one shooter?

10-29-2012 at 23:11:48

Glad you are back Alexander Cartier.

10-29-2012 at 23:12:26

Well now DM reports the girls are “gradually” speaking, which was to be expected. They should therefore be in a tightly secure location and the family should understand this requirement for the time being, instead of fighting for their custody.

As to the events, I had always wondered if the two woman and the little girl had their seat belts on. Apparently they had, including the 4-year old, who was strapped in a child seat. Her mother had this unbelievable presence of mind to undo the belt in a split second and tell her “hide!”. I am not sure that I would have acted that quickly in such a situation. But the mother assessed the situation in the blink of an eye, might we say because she knew what it was all about.

10-29-2012 at 23:16:05

I’m with you Marilyn, I have no idea what the website posted by kabou is supposed to mean. From Zombie-Apocolypse??

10-29-2012 at 23:41:10

@bleb Re: “More than one shooter?”

I don’t know.
The shooter had otherwise to react quickly, see that the car was moving in a semicircle, to run across the lay-by, possibly reload, aim and shoot before the father had time to change gear. He must then be pretty fast and agile.

There is always also the possibility that there were two perpetrators but only one gun.

10-29-2012 at 23:41:39



Good find. But Q: Are the casings (position) as they are drawn here confirmed?? Esp. the casings on picture 1??

10-29-2012 at 23:43:59

I actually think that the Schutz family in France has bigger reasons to fear for their lives than the girls in England.

10-29-2012 at 23:46:06

Picture 4, the 15.45 timestamp is WRONG. It can’t be. Must be towards 15:41 see my revised timeline

(I have tweaked the timeline for a slower speed of BM, he says that CH.-Martinet takes about ‘half hour’ … which makes him slowr than I thought, toward 10-12km/h uphill)

10-29-2012 at 23:48:10

10.29.2012 23:45


The casings on picture 1 are “confirmed” by the Le Monde article, where it says that the perpetrator was shooting at the cyclist in the direction towards Chevaline (as depicted in the picture).

10-29-2012 at 23:55:08


There are some “small” obvious errors in the picture.
The time 15:45 as you say.
The position of the car in picture 1, it looks as if it was standing in the middle of the lay-by, but it was actually standing at the far end of the lay-by.
The shooter and cyclist in picture 1 should be on the road not in the lay-by.

Then I personally also believe that the shooter should be standing nearer the “barrier”, not at the lay-by.

10-30-2012 at 00:08:56

@ Lars, shushu, rva524:

Guys, that’s just heartwarming to be welcomed back in such a way!

Yes, I was getting a little bit worried, too.

Plus I really took it to heart what Lars and Peter wrote on the old blog

(the German stuff;)

That and Windows 8 made up for the break.

10-30-2012 at 00:20:44

@Lars: would you care to comment on your last comment about the Schutz family?

10-30-2012 at 01:22:25

@Visiteur @Lars

Today I tried to delve into local politics in Ugine and Grignon [French language is a barrier]. Working on some recent developments in social housing [decision for demolition of houses owned by Mollier-Carroz] and a decision to build a new plant for Timet Savoie SA which seems to be identical to Ugitech location via Google. The city aldermen of Grignon were very upset … Mensonges par omission! [date Sept. 7, 2011]

Was this the petition signed by the Molliers – Comité de soutien ?
I support the list presented by Solidarity & Progress municipal elections Ugine and conducted by Louis Bertrand. Party members are also seen as cyclists at CC d’Ugine.

10-30-2012 at 06:24:37

@marylin @rva524

in his post ,”inconnu” said about the killer:

“….4. He’s collecting weapons and adores killer computer games, in which he uses the weapons he has in his collection.
5. Since he’s training in the virtual world, he doesn’t need to be a member of a shooting club.
6. He’s getting not frequently “the kick in the real world”, maybe “hunting season…” is only once a year…”

So i looked on google for the words “moto+luger p06” and i found this link to this website .
The page where otis miller (his pseudo) is describing himself is in the cache of google because it’s an old one .
The following seems for me very interesting :
“…On a pris nos motos nos flingues et ont a pris la route. Au début, on s’amuser bien, on tué du zombi et ont passer nos nuits dans une ancienne ferme dans le dessert au nouveau Mexique.
Malheureusement, une de nos chasses a mal tourné, et Ned, mon frère et mort.
La seule chose que j’ai pu récupéré c’est son flingue, d’ailleurs c’est le seul qui me reste aujourd’hui : Un Luger P06 en 7,65 et un couteau de tranché. ..”

This gambler choose to be from texas but I think he is french .

It will be interesting to look for this guy and ask him some questions .

10-30-2012 at 07:34:26

So what tipped the killer off?

I imagine Sylvain Mollier asking the al-Hillis for the way cause he got lost.

He then wanted to continue his way uphill (behind the barrier).

The killer felt intimidated and opened fire.

Second possibility:

the killer had shot Sylvain Mollier before and Sylvain Mollier knew him.

So when the al-Hillis approached thinking it was an accident he would not let any witness alive.

10-30-2012 at 07:38:26

Coming to think of it, I think it’s “ticked off”, not “tipped off”.


10-30-2012 at 08:23:34


ZOMBIE meaning void or emptiness

Person with reply to Otis Miller is named Lorena Galardi, group military. This appears as a virtual game, however listed in his/her fictional biography:
Date de naissance : 27 Décembre 1984
Nationalité : Italienne
Fonction ou métier : Carabinieri

GALARDI – Basque: topographic name for someone who lived in an area of abundant firewood, from Basque galar ‘kindling’, ‘dead wood’ + -di, a suffix denoting abundance.

10-30-2012 at 08:25:21

Tuesday. 30 Oct.

I won’t be about today until very late afternoon or early evening.Sorry about this.

10-30-2012 at 08:29:45

@Kabou : Looking for LugerPO6 guy.

Not me, Kabou, I won’t be looking for him.

10-30-2012 at 08:37:09


Thx. Now is ‘Le Monde’ totally accurate with picture 1. In other words, did they take/have that info straight from the ballistics report and is it the truth? For the moment I will go by this, because I find it very very important.


I noticed your absense as well, but I never worried. I only start to worry when I read in the news that ‘some guy AC was found dead on a little lay-by’ 🙂 (the idea of being absent because of ‘computer problems’ do NOT worry me:))

Anyway, picture 1. To me this is very SIGNIFICATION. The position of the killer. Because:

IF Killer X was waiting in ‘ambush’ on the SIDE (which I assumed) THEN you’d probably have a ‘nutter case’

But now he was positioned along the road. And on that position Killer X ‘blocked’ the way for SM (in case SM wanted to race beyond to escape, now he has to turn to escape = slower) AND Killer X had a straight view down that road TO SEE SM COMING!!

We know already SM was shot first so now we have 3(!) details which very strongly point at SM BEING THE TARGET!!

For me it is SM = Target!

(but then, what about the massive ‘collateral’ … to be continued)

10-30-2012 at 08:38:25

new word … SIGNIFICATION … lol, must be SIGNIFICANT:)

10-30-2012 at 08:51:21

@Alexander: Before I go go … welcome back.

10-30-2012 at 08:54:09

We think it may be a nutter but we won’t look at nutter cases? We do live in a crazy world …

Zombie Apocalypse: Left 4 dead – survival

Who doesn’t love guns and cartoon gore !?! Zombie Apocalypse: Left 4 dead is a great top-down shooter with over 25 weapons and 50 levels. It has everything you love about survival shooters. These zombies are faster and more aggro than usual. Choose your hero and shoot down those brain dead fools. Work your way through fleets of zombies, earn cash to purchase new weapons and upgrades between levels.

In all craziness of the Annecy Alps killings, conclusion of a nutter, perhaps game nutter? Perhaps explains the brutal headshots and the “frantic” movements at the murder scene.

CDC denies existence of zombies, despite recent bizarre acts of cannibalism

10-30-2012 at 09:55:29

@ Lynda “I’ve also seen SM described as a welder, fits into a comment posted on a French News site after the article describing him as a ‘fondeur’, not long after the deaths. To me this makes it less likely he was involved in anything of a secret nature … ”

It is not necessarily the case. Sometimes it is the workers who know tricks or have special skills to make something work. One time, we had two expert machinists, from Hungary or Czechoslovakia I recall, who had the ability to modify a certain machine and make it work 50% beyond its usual design. No one else was was able to do the work as well. Even if SM had no special skills or secrets he could copy drawings or computer files. Like the Pope’s butler who stole documents recently, or Bradley Manning and WikiLeaks.

@ Visiteur “As to the events, I had always wondered if the two woman and the little girl had their seat belts on. Apparently they had, including the 4-year old, who was strapped in a child seat. Her mother had this unbelievable presence of mind to undo the belt in a split second and tell her “hide!”. I am not sure that I would have acted that quickly in such a situation. But the mother assessed the situation in the blink of an eye, might we say because she knew what it was all about.”

The women could have had a longer warning, if they knew there might be danger as soon as they saw the killer or SM or even BM approaching. Didn’t the older girl say there was shouting before the gunfire? SAH yelling a warning or perhaps an argument.

@ Oui

But now they are training for them :-))

10-30-2012 at 09:57:32


The more we discover the less we know.

I think the graphic has been made up to fit the leaked information and could well be wrong.

Now the curved ball to make it even more complex:

Not all the bullets found or the casings found need to be part of the murder. The killer could have practiced beforehand. Also not all the stray bullets or casings may have been found yet. And the killer might have picked up some of the casings before he left.

10-30-2012 at 11:39:33

My un-evidenced gut feeling intuition is still saying crazed person. Not necessarily ill with mental problems but driven crazy by family dynamics that may be due to any range of things. I didn’t formerly understand the Ugine Families need to be entirely private as it seemed secretive/ lacking truth.But I have been to French Switzerland recently and now understand this reticence a bit more. The British mindset to some extent thrives on a bit of chaotic serendipitous disorder and doesn’t expect things to run like clockwork. The Swiss (generally) however do, because they think more about rules and functioning systems than emotions. There are a lot of dynastic families who have been in farming regions since way-back. Anyway “Vive la difference”.

PS. I see the Germans have now sold on the UK Nuclear industry to the Japanese. !!!

10-30-2012 at 11:39:54

@ M

This info graphic is obviously wrong on a number of counts. 1. Determining a shooter’s position from the location of spent casings found on the ground alone is very difficult. (See if you are interested.) However, the P06 used usually ejects upwards and to the left. Thus, one would expect the killer to have stood slightly (0.5 – 1.5 metres) forward and to the *right* of where the first batch of casings were found, i. e., further away from the road. 2. Moreover, in the first picture, Zainab is not hit in the shoulder (wrong), whereas SAH is hit (questionable, EM has denied this). 3. The position of SAH and Zainab shown seems all wrong. For Zainab to have got there, she would have had to move all the way around the car from the passenger side. I consider it far more likely that SAH and Zainab were standing to the rear of the BMW, getting something out of the open trunk.

4. What is missing in the transition from Image 1 to 2 are the two shots that went through the BMW’s windscreen. The shooter could have fired these from his original position, I suppose, or he could have sort of followed the car as it was being reversed.

5. Completely missing from Image 2 are those headshots that the killer fired at the prone SM. Likewise, I am convinced that he finished off SAH with two shots to the head at almost point-blank range at the same time that he finished off SM. However, in my opinion, the firing position shown in Image 2 is consistent with 10 casings ending up underneath the car, *if and only if* the killer held his pistol Hollywood-style in a sideways grip (causing the spent casings to be ejected in a flat trajectory towards the left, for a right-handed shooter).

10-30-2012 at 11:55:45


Thanks for great analysis, well done.

@M. and Pete.R.

Also very interesting and great effort. Don’t get lost in too may details, some of the basic facts need to be kept in mind or all will become fluid again.

10-30-2012 at 12:10:32

No details:)

Just 1 question … Are the casings on picture 1 about right. Was Killer X around that position.

For the moment I need no more info.

I only want to know if Killer X was ‘on the road’ or ‘in the woods on the side’

(I always assumed the latter, but, for me, it would be very significant if Killer X was indeed ‘on the road’ (as picture 1 indicates))

10-30-2012 at 12:26:21

@ M re: Are the casings on picture 1 about right

How would I know? All I can say is that *if* the location of the casings as shown in Picture 1 is correct, then the killer must have stood pretty much where they were found, a little forward and to the right of that spot.

However, one can say with certainty that, if the killer had been on the road. the spent casings would have ended up on the road as well, not in the lay-by.

10-30-2012 at 12:43:20

@ all

PS: Do look at the transcript of the WBM interview that felixfelix provided over at David Icke:

As I read that interview, there was a considerable gap between the 4×4 and the motorcycle that WBM encountered on the way uphill. Thus, it was not as if the motorcycle was being escorted by the 4×4.

I also remember reading a witness statement somewhere to the effect that the motorcyclist with the big pannier bags and/or topcase seemed in no hurry to get away, but hung around amongst the sightseers even after the road leading up to the lay-by had been sealed off by police. IMHO, that would be consistent with the behaviour of a psycho relishing the shock and excitement that he has caused (unfortunately, it is also consistent with the behaviour of a mere curious tourist).

10-30-2012 at 12:55:25


It was rethorical towards you:) Of course I meant if ‘Le Monde’ pictured those pic1 casing according to factual info (from official sources)

I don’t see LM ‘inventing’ this. It must be based upon certain info. However I would like to be sure about the location of the picture1 casings.

As said, it places KillerX with a direct view of the road so he saw SM coming (… and … my version … waited till SMwas close enough and opened fire at SM who was his (first/only?) target)

10-30-2012 at 13:38:11

Did we see this ‘Le Monde’ article? (I have seen partial info)

The last lines are new info for me

‘Vers 15 h 45, Zaina est retrouvée, totalement désorientée, par un cycliste britannique qui arrive sur avec son VTT. William Brett Martin, un Britannique d’origine néo-zélandaise, est un ancien de la Royal Air Force. Il prend rapidement conscience de la gravité de la situation. Il voit la petite fille s’effondrer sur le sol. Il a déclaré aux enquêteurs avoir tout d’abord déplacé les corps du cycliste et de Zaina, de peur que la voiture dont les roues tournaient encore ne les écrase. Puis il accède au tableau de bord de la voiture et coupe le moteur avant de partir chercher des secours, qui sont prévenus à 15 h 48.

Il a donc mis moins de quatre minutes pour effectuer ces opérations, ce qui dénote, a minima, un certain sang-froid. Son récit montre aussi la rapidité avec laquelle cette tuerie s’est déroulée. Peu après avoir passé le village de Chevaline, vers 15 h 15, sur son vélo, William Brett Martin affirme avoir été rejoint par Sylvain Mollier, qui s’est dirigé dans la même direction que lui et l’a rapidement distancé. A 15 h 15, les touristes britanniques prenaient encore, pour leur part, des photos dans un hameau sur la commune de Doussard.’

It seems Le Monde FIXES the BM arrival time at 1545 … which I find too late (going after BM’s own account I have the impression he lingered longer)

But more importantly the article states

>> Peu après avoir passé le village de Chevaline, vers 15 h 15, sur son vélo, William Brett Martin affirme avoir été rejoint par Sylvain Mollier, qui s’est dirigé dans la même direction que lui et l’a rapidement distancé. <<

Which really is valuable info for the timeline (which I shall tweak accordingly) IF this is for real (I assume it is)

10-30-2012 at 14:07:22

When I read the the article I wasn’t sure, probably due to poor translation, exactly what some of it meant. I will read it again and then check for clarification on the bits I don’t understand. What I was saying is the graphics are made to fit the information, which may be incomplete or misinterpreted. I take the article to be basically correct as I don’t think EM has refuted it. The bit you mention about the time alters everything once again. By the way it appears that from the barrier there is a clear view of approximately 100 yards down the road towards Chevaline. Now if the gunman stood there waiting for SM to arrive, then SM would also have a clear view of the gunman. The Al-Hillis would already need to be present and would have left if they thought someone was acting very strange. I still think the gunman was round the back of the car park and didn’t appear until SM had arrived. I am becoming more and more convinced that there was an accomplice involved as lookout.

10-30-2012 at 14:48:31

13:45 30/10/12

From The Times today:

A British girl survived a fatal attack on the family car when her mother unbuckled her seat belt and screamed at her to “hide” as a gunman fired at them in the French Alps, it emerged yesterday.

Zeena Hilli, 4, hid for eight hours under her skirt of her mother, Iqbal al-Allaf, who was killed alongside the girl’s father, Saad al-Hilli, and her grandmother.

Investigators increasingly suspect that the gunman, who used a Luger P06 automatic pistol issued to members of the Swiss Army in the 1920s and 30s, was a “lone psychopath” rather than a professional hitman.

The gunman appears to have opened fire on Mr Hilli, his eldest daughter, Zainab, 7, and French cyclist Sylvain Mollier, 45, from above a remote car park at 3.30pm on September 5.

Zainab has told police that her father grabbed her hand but entered the family’s BMW car alone, according to police reports seen by Le Monde newspaper.

Mr Hilli could have been shot in the back as he fled with his daughter. He locked the car doors then reversed the BMW at high speed and hit Mr Mollier in the chest, suggesting the cyclist had already been shot.

The car reversed in a semi-circle across the carpark before its rear wheels became stuck in an earth embankment.

The gunman then walked along the car and shot the Mr Hilli, 50, his wife, 47, and mother-in-law Suhaila al-Allaf, 74, in the head at close range. Zeena told police that she was sitting alongside her mother and grandmother on the rear seats and only survived because her mother told her to hide.

The attacker then shot Mr Mollier and repeatedly beat Zainab, who had already been shot in the shoulder, with the butt of his gun having apparently run out of ammunition after firing 25 bullets.

French police initially believed that the British family was the intended target and focused the investigation on an inheritance dispute, their Iraqi background and Mr Hilli’s work for a satellite company.

But they have recently began to shift the focus of their inquiries to the possibility of a psychologically disturbed killer. They are reported to have carried checks at local psychiatric hospital and gun clubs and to be focusing on people with previous convictions for gun violence.

This version has the shooting being ‘from above’ the car park.

10-30-2012 at 14:58:33

The Le Monde-scenario

I prefer to regard these pictures as an illustrator’s view of the information in the Le Monde article, a sort of a summary, to make it easier to understand what the article says. It is though still only an illustrator’s interpretation of the information.

It is of course also so, that even if the Le Monde article is based on true leaks from the investigation, the journalists are not always as meticulously careful with details as we are here.

That said, I still think that the pictures are pretty good, and useful as a base for discussion.

When I study the Le Monde-scenario I draw a couple of conclusions about the perpetrator:

I believe that the perpetrator arrived at the lay-by when the shooting started. He was not waiting at Martinet, but came from the mountain area, by bike or on foot. He then shot the french cyclist.

1) he reacted very quickly when the car started to reverse, and started to shoot at the car
2) he ran very fast, circa 10 m, across the lay-by
3) he got his pulse down very quickly
4) he reloaded his gun
5) he aimed and shot at the car (driver first?)
6) he was able to hit and kill his victim
7) he probably smashed the windows, and made sure that all victims were dead, by shooting them in the head
8) he also made sure that the cyclist was dead by shooting him in the head
9) he hit the 7 year old girl over the head

At least the first 6 points above he did within seconds, the rest within minutes.

The perpetrator then left by bike or on foot, perhaps the same way as he came.

With this kind of scenario I would look for:

a) a rather young perpetrator, 25-35 years old, male
b) living in the area, very familiar with the mountain roads
c) fit, physically well trained, used to shoot under stress, see e.g. biathlon or the kind of military background that Lynda suggested earlier
d) trained shooter, could be gun club member or with military background
e) with empathy problems (“cold-blooded”), difficulties to handle slights and insults, maybe with some obsessions
f) no alibi for 5. September 2012 15:00 – 16:00

If you can find such a person, who also has some sort of connection to the Schutz-Mollier family I think you might very well have found the perpetrator.

…..but circumstaces, could very well have made it possible, also for a fat old man with a galoise in the corner of his’s mouth, and no previous shooting experience, to pull it through…….

10-30-2012 at 15:06:38

This is an update on the case on my site. I am pasting it here. You may find it interesting. You won’t read it anywhere else – for the moment.

Update: Tuesday, October 30, 2012:

The following is exclusive:

The body of Saad Al-Hilli, 50, was embalmed and so was the body of his wife Iqbal, 47, and that of Mr. Al-Hilli’s septuagenarian mother-in-law, Suhaila Al-Allaf.

The body of Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, 45, the fourth victim of the still unknown assassin of Wednesday, September 5, who brutally gunned down the Iraqi-born British family on a lay-by near to the Upper Savoy village of Chevaline, was not embalmed. Chevaline is approximately 372 miles (600 kilometers) from Paris and 65 miles (60 kilometers) from the Swiss city Geneva.

French prosecutor Eric Maillaud was given the go-ahead for the embalmment by Mr. Al-Hilli’s brother, the 53-year-old Zaid Al-Hilli, who had received the request through the British embassy in Paris.

The embalming means that the investigators no longer need to carry out further examination of the bodies of the Al-Hilli couple and of Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf. The three were buried on Sunday, October 21, in the Shia Muslim sector of the Brookwood Cemetery near Woking, Surrey.

The fact that the body of Sylvain Mollier was not embalmed means that the investigators could, if needed, carry out further examination on his remains. His burial took place without prior announcement one evening and the cemetery has not been named.

However, according to French law a body that is to leave French territory, even if it is to be taken just a mile across the French frontier, must be embalmed. The funeral parlor undertaking the transport of the defunct must obtain written permission for the embalming from the next of kin although embalming will be done even if such permission is not granted. In Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf’s case her next of kin was her son Haydar Thaher al-Saffar but considered non compos mentis he was excluded.

In 1997 the embalming of the body of Princess Diana caused anger and consternation in Britain as it was thought that the French were trying to hide or cover up the fact that she was assassinated and did not die in a car accident. There was however not a word of protest in the British newspapers that Prince Charles had given permission for the embalming when as an ex-husband he was not her next of kin but so was her brother, Charles, 9th Earl Spencer. The Princess’s two sons, the princes William and Harry were still minors and therefore excluded as next of kin.

Apart from France’s law regarding the cross-border transport of bodies another two laws demand that a body must be embalmed. These are the Berlin Agreement on the Transport of Human Remains of 1937 and the Strasbourg Agreement on the Transfer of Corpses of 1973.

Embalming is accepted by the Christian religion and is tolerated by the Jewish religion but under certain circumstances only. It is forbidden by Islam. However, Islam does allow embalming should a body be transported over a long distance and across borders as in the case of the Al-Hilli couple and Mrs. Suhaila Al-Allaf.

10-30-2012 at 15:07:55

@Lars : Re: Le Monde

Le Monde is not in the habit of inventing stuff. I think we can take what they wrote on Friday as factual.

10-30-2012 at 15:11:25

@Pete.R. : re: The Times today.

Vow, but they are slow!

10-30-2012 at 15:12:07

@Peter : re: BM interview.

Thanks for this, Peter.

10-30-2012 at 15:13:43

@J. Cave re; crazed person gut feeling.

I go from crazed person to political assassination.

10-30-2012 at 15:14:45

@Oui re: nutters and crazy world

Oui, nutters scare me.

10-30-2012 at 16:06:37

@Visiteur Regarding:Why should the Schutz family be careful?

A vast majority of violent crimes are local events, performed by local perpetrators and with local victims. For a vast majority of these local violent crimes there is a relationship between the perpetrator and the victim, this can be a very close relationship, in the family, or a very far-fetched relationship that is only visible to the perpetrator (see example below). If we limit ourselves to middle-class, middle-aged people in western Europe, the statistics shows an even clearer predominance for “local violent crimes”. So far we have no facts that say that this crime should be an exception. So only based on statistics the Schutz-Mollier family has reasons to be careful, especially since the perpetrator is then probably still in the area.

Example of a “far-fetched relationsship”: I remember a quite famous murdercase some years ago. A man got a phone call late one evening. The caller said that the man’s car stood in the way, could he please come out and move his car. The man left his house and was shot as soon as he came out. The police couldn’t find any known enemies to the victim or a criminal background. After some clever police work they however found the perpetrator. It then turned up that the perpetrator’s ex-girl friend had ten years earlier been working at the same restaurant as the victim. She had, one evening, said to the perpetrator that she found her colleague very nice, and that she liked to talk with him. That was enough for our perpetrator. He made a note of this in his “black list”, where he listed all the people he wanted to kill. He obviously couldn’t handle anything that he regarded as slights and insults. Ten (10!) years later, when he had a gun, he shot the man. The investigation showed that the perpetrator had also shot two other men for the same kind of reasons (they were also on the list).

If it is a “local crime” it is a very high probability that the members of the Mollier-Schutz family can figure out, who the perpetrator is, or at least some prime suspects. I am quite certain, that at least late at night, when it is difficult to sleep, these kind of thoughts are also in their heads. The perpetrator is of course also aware of this.

The girls in England are on the other hand, I think pretty safe, and would surely be even better off in their own family. I have very little hope that they could identify or even recognize the killer. Children though sometimes remember small, odd things, that grown-ups don’t notice, e.g. that someone had funny looking shoes. I though hope that the old girl will be able to tell what happened before the shooting started and that would really help us a lot to get the scenario right.

So I hope that the gendarmerie and the Schutz-Mollier family have taken all the necessary precautions.

……it could of course also be a CIA operation………………………

10-30-2012 at 16:13:48

@Lars : re; Schutz family

I am sure that no photos of them have been released because the killer is still on the loose. I also think they are under police protection.

I m not sure of the statistics but a majority of murders are committed by someone in the victim’s entourage.

CIA … pourqoui pas?

10-30-2012 at 16:27:02

@ Marilyn:

Great update – nice scoop – thanks!

@ Oui:

Of course, kabou only googled ”moto + luger 06” and this zombie thing means less than Oui would like, but in a general, more Lars-speaking-of-these-local-loner-outcast-group (which he totally invented) I go very well with the idea of a computer games inspired massacre (Max will not like).

@ Peter 2x:

What you posted on holding the gun sideways fits directly in with the computer game inspired massacre idea.

Do you have the source of that witness statement of the “biker with the bags” still hanging around with the sightseers after the killing?

I find it intriguing.

10-30-2012 at 16:42:18


I’ve just sent you an e:mail, have a look and tell me what you think ?

10-30-2012 at 16:46:26

@ Lars

The killer may have been a fat old man with a Gauloises dangling from the corner of his mouth, but he certainly knew how to shoot. Owing to the forward lean of the rider (there is not that much difference between road bikes and MTBs in that regard), the upper body of a sporty cyclist makes a surprisingly small target. Repeatedly hitting such a target whilst it is moving is no mean feat, even if it is moving in a more or less straight line.

Speculating, I would assume that the killer initially focused his full attention (and his first few shots) on this first target, as it would be by far the most difficult to hit. This circumstance gave SAH the few seconds he needed to get into his car.

Once the killer had brought down SM, SAH getting behind the wheel of his car would be his next concern, to be dealt with immediately. He fired a few shots at the car, without incapacitating SAH, as SAH was able to reverse the car.

This was the critical moment for the killer, with SAH almost getting away – just at the point where the killer needed to change magazines for the first time. However physically fit he may or may not be, the killer’s heartbeat must have been off the charts as he moved towards the BMW, because his plan was going wrong. (Perhaps Le Monde is right and he even dropped his gun. That would be a natural consequence of attempting a magazine change whilst running, and it would fit with the location where the pistol “fragments” were found.)

10-30-2012 at 17:29:33

@ Alexander Cartier

I’m still looking for that article in which a witness was quoted mentioning a biker “in no hurry” hanging around in Chevaline, without success so far. Unless my my memory is playing tricks on me, I’m pretty sure though that the witness quoted was not the smallholder who saw a motorcycle slowly heading towards the lay-by, but somebody from Chevaline referring to the time after the murders had already been discovered.

10-30-2012 at 18:23:11

From near the top of this thread from me:

and rva524 google translation:

“@ someone who can translate-
This is what google translate does for the article Lynda posted. If I understand correctly, the police had stopped the motorcyclist to tell him to leave the area and now are looking for him??

Investigators are still looking for a motorcycle seen that day. The driver was not far from where the killing when he was arrested by agents of the ONF (National Forest). The latter asked him to leave the area because the forest is home to the Combe d’Ire partly a nature reserve, where traffic is prohibited.

English or a cyclist would have crossed this same bike lowest moments later, before discovering the bodies of victims. The driver is he the murderer? Only certainty biker went near the vehicle of Al-Hilli in the slot of the drama. Despite calls for testimony , it still has not appeared.”

There appears to have been another cyclist spotted by the sheep farmer, near the Col de Cherel, possibly the otherside.

He is the one reported to be in no hurry, can’t find the link for the moment, there have been so many !

10-30-2012 at 19:45:51
10-30-2012 at 20:02:54

Okay, so we really need to solve this crime, I just got my ticket to Paris and I shall be there in January. Of course, even with a psychopathic killer on the loose in France, its by far safer than most any part of any major U.S. city!

On a more serious note, I concur with Peter’s statement “IMHO, that would be consistent with the behaviour of a psycho relishing the shock and excitement that he has caused (unfortunately, it is also consistent with the behaviour of a mere curious tourist).

It has been said, and is also my experience that a true psychopath will be a high risk taker, very impulsive, and self centered, and many times very personable. Don’t take my word for it, I once used a behavioral geneticist as an expert witness in a case to explain to the jury my client’s personality disorder. (which was psychopath). His name is David Lyyken at Univ. of Minnesota. Another characteristic is that they express no mercy or remorse toward their victims. A real psychopath is very rare, and will almost certainly have had some previous run in with law enforcement as a juvenile. Usually things like school fights, abusing a sibling, parents having to call police on him, etc.

I don’t know if the investigation is extremely secretive and thats why we haven’t heard of any suspects, or if the police are truly inept at their jobs. I fear the latter while I hope for the former.

10-30-2012 at 20:39:46

I had a sudden brainwave, when reading the rva post. We mustn’t be fooled by the Killer. Don’t think he is dumb. I think the Killer X is smart and did know exactly what he was doing.

My brainwave:

Killer X using the opportunity (not planned) of the situation.

Killer X is after SM

But …

Killer X used the ‘opportunity’ of the AH’s to ‘mask’ this. Killer X shoots SM. Then he slaughters the AH’s to … make it look like OR a ‘nutter’ shooting OR an attack on the AH’s. Derailing the ‘investigation’

Now the ‘investigators’ have to cover and inspect ALL angles which take a lot of time. Only ‘dead ends’ can get the investigation on the right track. But to reach an dead end, e.g. the AH / Swiss Bank / Iraqi business (btw Killer X could have known that) take a lot of time

And there is always the ‘nutter’ possibility. IF Killer X is so smart to keep out of the hands of the investigators, perhaps in the end everybody will conclude it was a ‘nutter’ and perhaps even accept that he won’t be catched

There is this shared feeling about this case that some things just do not add up … and perhaps (with luck) it was precisely the effect Killer X was after (when he killed off the AH’s).

I dunno, just a brainwave

10-30-2012 at 20:42:08

(btw Killer X could have known that)


(btw Killer X could *NOT* have known that)

Where is the edit button when you need it Marylin?:)

10-30-2012 at 20:56:25


“However physically fit he may or may not be, the killer’s heartbeat must have been off the charts as he moved towards the BMW, because his plan was going wrong.”

That is exactly my point, he had run and was very excited, and he was still able to shoot and hit !

That really tells us something about the killer.

10-30-2012 at 21:13:20

@ Marilyn

I have looked further into the ‘link’ I sent you – whilst initially I thought this might just be an insight into the type of people that hunt in those forests, I have tied up two young people.

Also, this man has a motorcycle and was ditressed when in amongst all his friends, no-one was there when his realtionship fell apart earlier this year. So, for all his ‘friends’ and bravado, a man out on a limb.

I doubt this is the guy, but someone very much like him, he’s also served in the military.

@everyone, it was reported that some bullets were found in the undergrowth, so I presume they found them all.

The bullets to the front, if you believe came from my ‘barrier’, certainly up the road, as Saad reversed the windscreen would have faced the gunman. Apparently there were 10 spent cartridge cases near or beside the final resting position of the car – I can account for 2 to Saad, 2 to the rear drivers side passenger and 2 to Sylvain Mollier, 2 others, missed or hit the car.

10-30-2012 at 21:18:47

@M: re: Edit button

Sorry, Max. I have no idea what the form looks like on my site for leaving a comment. I write my comments on my admin and I have italics, bold, edit etc. Mine’s a wordpress site.

10-30-2012 at 21:18:59

@ Marilyn

re: photos circulating of the Schutz – yesterday I posted a link to the Pharamcy site, with all memebers of the ‘team’ photographs ! Including Claire, her father Thierry and mother Genevieve.

10-30-2012 at 21:19:42

I like the elegance of M’s theory about the killer trying to throw off the investigation. It allows for the possibility that this was a professional hit (made to look like a sloppy kill), but could also just be a grudge against SM or less likely AH, or the way I am currently leaning-a random killing by a “nutter”.

Another thing we have not discussed is DNA. As the killer beat the child, then that required close bodily contact and in almost all certainty some DNA would be transferred to her. DNA is way overplayed by the media in general, but the reality is that the killer would have left some somewhere unless he was extremely careful. Whether the investigators will be able to isolate/identify it is another question. Of course, the paramedics and medical people were desperately trying to save her life, so in all liklihood there will be no useful DNA on her, but not so for SM.

There is also a relatively recent technique for retrieving fingerprints and even DNA from bullets. For those interested, here is a link for info about that-


How are people inserting the cool hyperlinks on your posts here?

10-30-2012 at 21:21:41


That is exactly my point, he had run and was very excited, and he was still able to shoot and hit !

That really tells us something about the killer.

YES, Lars, YES !!!

I still believe and even more so, very close to home.

10-30-2012 at 21:22:59

@rva524 re: psycho very personable.

Jack the Ripper must have charmed those ladies of the night for them to have trusted him to step into the dark alleys. I know ‘my’ serial killer (Dr. Petiot) was known as a loving husband and father, and a charming family doctor.

10-30-2012 at 21:26:59

30.10.2012 21.11

Maybe I have missed something, but I thought the French authorities said that they did not know who was shot first. They said that forensics could not give them that information.

I am sure that Zainab has given much more information than we know about. The French authorities have to make a case, based on evidence, that will hold up in court so that they can be assured of a conviction.

I agree with Marilyn that the French authorities are withholding the photo of Sylvain Mollier to protect his family from the killer who is at large.

I still feel that this is a massacre by – as Mark put it – a very, very insane person. This involves the murder of four people by someone who has irrational grievances against one or more of the victims. The target of those grievances remains unclear to me.

At the end of the day, the murders could have been committed by someone who simply liked to kill for no reason at all – someone who, like other killers, had to keep killing to enhance the thrill.

10-30-2012 at 21:28:33

@rva525 re: DNA and cool hyperlinks.

Thank you for the link to the Guardian piece. I will file it for my future crime writing.

As for cool hyperlinks. It was Peter or M or Lars who told me how to insert hyperlinks and despite that I can now do so I am incapable of saying how I do it. So, you better wait for one of them to tell you.

10-30-2012 at 21:29:24

@Lynda: re: photos of Schutz clan.

Thanks Lynda it was great of you doing that.

10-30-2012 at 21:35:49

@Lars re: weapon info in Le Monde

This is interesting, Lars. Thanks for finding it.

10-30-2012 at 21:58:09

What if we’ve got SM wrong? And what if we have the killer wrong?

We have this image of a smiling guy with a cap who, as we know, is not SM. Yet, the imagine has stuck.

What if he was a rather rough person? He liked to drink beer with his mates and tell off colour jokes. Instead of sitting by the fire on cold winter weekends reading a book or playing monopoly with his teenage boys, he went biking (motorcycle and bicycle), mountain climbing, and hunting with his pals, the hunting outings always turning into rowdy beer parties when they pose, noses red, with their deadly rifles and their killings of the day.

What if he fell out with one of those pals, a man who loved to kill – kill wild animals that is? It might have been an argument over a woman or over an unpaid loan.

And what if that friend waited for him on that lay by and shot him, and just then the Al-Hillis drove up?

A man who hunts and goes biking and mountain climbing would know his way around, he would know the shortcuts to enable him to get out of the forest quickly, or to get around the forest, or to get to a dirt road which would lead to a main road. He would also know where there was an abandoned cabin where he could hide for a few hours or for a day or a night should that be necessary.

So what if this is what happened that Wednesday afternoon?

10-30-2012 at 21:58:53

@Peachtree : Re: Zainab giving information.

I am sure she has/is.

10-30-2012 at 21:59:29

Now I’m saying goodnight.

10-30-2012 at 22:06:27

@rva524 Re: DNA

Maybe they could find DNA on that piece from the gun?

10-30-2012 at 22:11:10

@Marilyn, thankyou.

10-30-2012 at 22:11:22


Yes, we certainly don’t know much about the french cyclist, which is a problem.

Someone described him as a rather weak person. His father started a rugby club, you know, but the son was considered to weak for the game and quit and started cycling instead. Someone described him as a “gamin”.

10-30-2012 at 22:31:46

@Peter & rva524

I am getting more and more convinced that the killer and the cyclist met at Martinet coming from opposite directions.

I wonder, from what distance could you start shooting, with that gun, when your target is a cyclist, and you want to kill him?

I understand that the easy answer is that you should wait until you are very close, but if you for some reason wanted to start when you were quite sure to hit him, but he wasn’t too close.

10-30-2012 at 22:47:44

@Marilyn Z.

We’re moving in opposite directions. I have changed from an intelligence assassin [MI6 – CIA – Mossad] to a military person,survivalist, love for historic guns, plays computer wargames and plays out the virtual game in reality.

Today I have read for the first time about the Xavier Baligant murder. Killer used a Swiss made K31, a precision rifle with great accuracy for WWII sniper action. Location an isolated resting place in a random shooting. Case is yet to be solved.

As AC added to my previous post, since 2005 the training in US Homeland Security involves attack by zombies. These exercises don’t want to put a face on an enemy as was done before with all psychological effects needed in battle.

Post by Alexander Cartier:

@ Oui:
Of course, kabou only googled ”moto + luger 06” and this zombie thing means less than Oui would like, but in a general, more Lars-speaking-of-these-local-loner-outcast-group (which he totally invented) I go very well with the idea of a computer games inspired massacre (Max will not like).

Zombie attack will be training exercise at Homeland Security counterterrorism summit – see also video.

The survivalists groups also speak in those terms and give advice on building a home armory.

The Killer X in Annecy massacre could have been the same person that killed XB in Lorraine province. Lorraine is equivalent to the name Lorane, just coincidental of course.

In Nancy the killer used a presicion Swiss made rifle suitable for combat in a defensive zone, see chart in my last link. In Annecy killer X used a collection item from Swiss army again, the Luger 06 – 7.65mm. This is a pistol used in close combat. I fear in this pattern, same killer will plan an attack again at random with the last combat weapon for the intermediate zone: the assault rifle. That would be one similar in use like AR15 and AK47. I believe the attack zone is well planned, the victims are pure at random as we have seen with the Washington DC sniper.

Conclusion: military guy, survivalist, crazied with computer war games similar to Zombie Apocalypse as googled before. There is plenty of similarity in viciousness to be a copycat of US terror acts we see every few months.

10-30-2012 at 22:48:22


@Marylin: Don’t forget it was said, that SM had taken a new route that his father-in-law suggested to him.
Either the killer new that or he had been tracked by XYZ.

10-30-2012 at 22:57:18

@ Lars, Marilyn

And my ‘suspect’ also played rugby ….

When did Roger Mollier die and how/why ? What rugby team did he set up ?

I remain convinced this is local – the farmers wife said the motorbike was not in a hurry, spent some time, but as I’ve said before, it could be it passed from time to time ….. after all we have vehicles going towards and away from the scene that appear to be the same one/s.

10-30-2012 at 22:57:33


Luger P06 7.65mm – precision range 25m.

10-30-2012 at 23:22:39


Thanks, 25m is quite a distance.

For me 10-15 m would be enough, since the cyclist, according to the Le Monde scenario, was almost at the end of the lay-by when he was hit, the killer could have started shooting when he couldn’t see the part of the lay-by nearest to him (because of the little hill and the shrubbery).

10-30-2012 at 23:36:13

10.30.2012 23:35


Has anyone seen a photograph of the lay-by as seen from the “barrier”?

There is a “zillion” of photographs of that lay-by as seen by someone coming from Chevaline, or taken at the lay-by itself, but I don’t believe I have seen 1 photograph as seen by someone coming from the mountains.

10-30-2012 at 23:50:38

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins
“What if we’ve got SM wrong? And what if we have the killer wrong?

We have this image of a smiling guy with a cap who, as we know, is not SM. Yet, the imagine has stuck.

What if he was a rather rough person? He liked to drink beer with his mates and tell off colour jokes. Instead of sitting by the fire on cold winter weekends reading a book or playing monopoly with his teenage boys, he went biking (motorcycle and bicycle), mountain climbing, and hunting with his pals, the hunting outings always turning into rowdy beer parties when they pose, noses red, with their deadly rifles and their killings of the day.”

I think in the early days, someone on MZT suggested an animal activist person as the killer, though I don’t know if they said that regarding SM as target.

What if the animal activists saw the “Chasseurs” site and were filled with great moral outrage, especially at the pic of the dead boar? They take note of the members’ names and track some down, mistaking OUR SM with the SM on the hunters site?

@ Oui
@ Marilyn Z.
“As AC added to my previous post, since 2005 the training in US Homeland Security involves attack by zombies. These exercises don’t want to put a face on an enemy as was done before with all psychological effects needed in battle.”

Yes, it’s a good idea to use anonymous Zombies for training. They could be anyone, your neighbors, your cousins. And if they’re not fully Zombiefied yet, someone only need yell, “They’ve been bitten! Quick, shoot them before it’s too late. “

10-31-2012 at 00:07:02

I thought of another thing. There aren’t any movies (that I know of) that have Zombie babies or animals. They should have the movie makers make some quick. Then, in the event of a “real” Zombie Apocalypse, there wouldn’t be any moral dilemma about collateral damage. You bomb whole towns, and need not worry about embarrassing videos of dead babies on YouTube.

10-31-2012 at 00:15:53

I see what you mean. Photo from the other side.

Could it be that Killer X, coming from that side with SM in sight, completely ‘overlooked’ AH, Zainab and the BMW???

I’m thinking far beyond the box now … suppose Killer X is after SM, nows SM’s biking route. But he travels in opposite direction (Col de Cherel -> Chevaline) until het meets SM and then shoots him

… So he proceeds like that and everything according to plan he sees SM coming when Killer X is near Martinet. So Killer X fires but to his surprise he suddenly sees AH, the car, Zainab and he realizes he has a big big problem. He HAS TO kill them too … start firing like a madman … etc, etc.

10-31-2012 at 00:19:26

I thought of this scenario because of the statement of Zainab who said something like ‘her father suddenly took Zainab with force to the car’ …

… as if AH saw something coming which was very BAD

… suppose AH and Zainab were reading the sign, from there you can sees up the road, but perhaps Killer X, arriving from that side, didn’t see AH and Zainab (and BMW) because there were ‘behind’ that sign??

10-31-2012 at 00:24:43

00.18/ 10-31-2012

@ Lars
I’ve seen kind of movie in 360 degree angle (but can’t remember where and when) – you could move around the szene-
I tried to google – but without success..

Any ideas who this type of “video” is called?
Which hobby-dedective will be the first and can link it here?

10-31-2012 at 00:35:22
10-31-2012 at 00:55:23

That’s it, exactly, what I couldn’t find anymore.
Congratulations, M!!!!

Have a good sleep…

10-31-2012 at 01:13:23


Excellent. This 360º view I used early on to get the orientation correct and here you see the log barrier has been laid by the side of the road.

In the photo link you see clearly the road above the parking as the hairpin turn leads road back at a higher elevation. If it was an ambush and random killing, the shooter could have come from higher ground off that part of the road. More likely with the barrier in place, the cyclists would have to dismount and pass between the barrier and the sign. At this spot, SM and SAH could have been really close. If SM was shot several times, his blood spetters would have been all over SAH. SAH and Zainab could have been protected by the sign and out of view as I have mentioned earlier. SAH was nearest to the driver’s seat, Zainab went around the rear end and apparently took a bullet in the shoulder and must have fallen to the ground.

SM wasn’t targeted, it’s a random shooting incident with purpose of taking as many lives as possible. There was no mix-up between SM and BM. All were innocent bystanders. Killer X is a military guy and survivalist. Need not be local but most likely from the wide region France, Switserland and Italy.

10-31-2012 at 01:39:22
10-31-2012 at 02:19:13

Your Comments

… if they took the right pix….

10-31-2012 at 08:18:21


Nothing new to read in the Mail Online except a mix of inaccuracies and an old photo that has been debunked aeons ago. Stay tuned to Marilyn Z. Tomlins’ blog to get the right news feed on the investigation.

If I wasn’t already awake, I would turn and go back to sleep.

10-31-2012 at 08:46:11

Just a thought on the Luger P06. The police have part of this and have identified the maker. All parts often have reference numbers. Hopefully there are still manufacturers records that can narrow down when the weapon was made, maybe even down to an individual batch or gun. They might then know who it was originally sold to i.e. Swiss army. With proper police work it might be possible to come up with a list of possible original owners i.e. who the weapon might have been issued to at the time. Tracing all these people and family connections could turn up a connection. Or further history of the weapon might i.e. who the original owner sold it or gave it to. This will take time and effort but it could be the lead that is needed.

10-31-2012 at 09:09:27

Loads of new ‘information’ in the recent Daily Mail article. Clare Schutz did exactly as my wife expected, drove the route when SM didn’t return before going to the police. A body found in the woods in June, at the time a drug taking suicide, now that needs re-investigating. Also a good description of the injuries to SM and how they probably occurred. Details of SM’s children and divorce 6 years ago.

10-31-2012 at 09:20:13

Wednesday, October 30. Is this really Wednesday. Is Monday here … Will read in later this morning. Not awake yet.

10-31-2012 at 09:25:19

08:24 31/10/12

Only half write, it really is Wednesday, but it’s the 31st October, All Hallows’ Eve (and my birthday).

10-31-2012 at 09:37:07

@Pete R.

Congratulations !!!

10-31-2012 at 09:47:42

“Could it be that Killer X, coming from that side with SM in sight, completely ‘overlooked’ AH, Zainab and the BMW???”

Exactly what I am arguing for!

The killer(s) came running from the “barrier” or from the roadcrossing leading straight up to the mountains, I think it is at least 50 m for both.

The killer sees only the empty road with the cyclist, and the empty part of the lay-by. He starts shooting when he is perhaps 15 m from the cyclist.

I am almost sure that it is impossible to see the car from where the killer was, but it would still be nice to have a picture of the lay-by from the “barrier”.

10-31-2012 at 09:55:35

@ Daily Mail

I agree with Oui that it is “a mix of inaccuracies”. I wonder if they will get sued for publishing that photo? Or is it perhaps a provocation from Daily Mail? What is said in the article are things that have been written before, but about other persons and events in this case.

I would though very much like to read that article from Le Dauphiné libéré that they are quoting.

10-31-2012 at 10:00:59

Happy birthday, Pete R. 🙂