Chevaline … Saad Al-Hilli … Sylvain Mollier murders … still not solved …

If you want to read what I have already written about this gruesome and cruel slaying of a family on vacation and of a Frenchman you can do so here and here and here. Comments have closed on all three of those links, so if you wish to join our very interesting debate you can […]

Saad Al-Hilli -r.i.p.

If you want to read what I have already written about this gruesome and cruel slaying of a family on vacation and of a Frenchman you can do so here and here and here.

Comments have closed on all three of those links, so if you wish to join our very interesting debate you can comment below under ‘comments’.

See you there.



Marilyn Z. Tomlins

1,447 Responses

11-7-2012 at 13:39:07

Hello everyone!

11-7-2012 at 13:56:26


Made it here 2nd!

11-7-2012 at 14:02:57

@Alexander: re: made it here.

And we still have not solved the murders.

11-7-2012 at 14:04:20

(glad I did copy/paste)

CS and MM on Hi5

Thx to Lars and others I’m no also looking into this. quite a beauty at that time (2007) I might fall for that for sure:)

CS has only 2 friends L and MM. Curiously CS did set up her account april 16, 2007 and MM only later july 21, 2007

CS tried another setup 4 days earlier, april 12, 2007

MM having hundreds of friends no prob, but CS only have 1 friend (not counting L) … MM is significant. Points to special relation. Looks like the reason to create hi5 account … but why was CS’ earlier than MM??

Nothing more for now (but still, good hunt/find)

11-7-2012 at 14:13:15

All welcome on this blog. . . Love it!
We are mostly talking in English aren’t we?
I wonder if there was a money meeting at Martinet what language
the conversation was conducted in??
Was a translator needed.?
For example what does ‘gamin’ mean in spoken French. Is it someone with a slight elfin stature or maybe laddish? In English laddish means something quite different.
I have just read somewhere that Lance Armstrong liked to train in the region. Do cyclists take drugs more than Mr Average Person would? Cyclist + pharmacist would seem an ideal pairing in that case.

11-7-2012 at 14:17:14


As our producer I guess you also have the right to choose the music tracks. But please take also something with accordion, for the french touch, not only rap! 🙂

@Oui & M

Grenoble2night is/was a place were students and other young people use to hang out, and so also Molly. If you check his friends he says he is 27 years old, which I somewhat doubt, but that maybe a little “exaggeration” to make him more interesting to young girls/women.

11-7-2012 at 14:20:39

@ M(ax), not M(olly):

I found 52 pictures of Omar and I looked at-all-of-them!

Are there any pictures left?

11-7-2012 at 14:25:59

Everything points to this being a carefully planned, premeditated murder by an experienced shooter: The fact that the killer did not touch his ammunition with his bare hands, the fact that he must have used bleach or a similar substance to rid his gun of all DNA traces, the fact that he wore gloves, the fact that he switched off his mobile phone beforehand, the likelihood that he either wore a motorcycle helmet or earplugs to protect his hearing.

The fact that he managed to escape from the scene of the crime either makes him an extremely lucky man or somebody who knew the location very well, most likely a local.

The only thing about this multiple murder that has an “amateurish” feel to it is the odd choice of gun used, a vintage P06. I have given a lot of thought to the question of why somebody who obviously knew what he was doing would use such an old piece. I think that I have found, if not *the* answer, then at least a pretty good one: That P06 was his one unregistered gun. He is a local, he is a regular shooter in a club, he has multiple firearms registered in his name, and he feared that he would come under suspicion (either because he is known to have held a grudge against SM or because he simply expected that if the murders were committed with, say, a SIG-Sauer P226, all local owners of SIG-Sauer P226s would be routinely checked by the police).

11-7-2012 at 14:28:12

@Alexander: re:Molly

And what do you say, Alexander, is he good-looking?

11-7-2012 at 14:28:23

@ Lars:

is a web page.

11-7-2012 at 14:29:45

@Lars : re: Alexander’s music tracks.

It will be heavy metal. Unless he gets Robbie Williams to write the music and lyrics for Adele to sing.

11-7-2012 at 14:32:02

@ J Cave : re: talking English

We tried German, Russian, Afrikaans, Italian, French, and Jan, who was here but has left (so it appears) even tried Flemish once. It was Jan who first mentioned the Xavier Baligant case.

11-7-2012 at 14:39:41

I’ll take that thought a step further: The extreme caution shown by the Chevaline killer in avoiding leaving any usable forensic evidence behind, plus the extraordinary precaution of using that old P06 that he never bothered registering because he never thought that he would actually use it, makes the killer somebody who is not only forensically aware but very familiar with the way that the police work.

I could well imagine the killer being a cop, an ex-cop or a private eye.

11-7-2012 at 14:40:06

@ Marilyn:

Hell yeah, find him good looking!

But anyway, I am not into men.

But anyway again, this DJ’s even better looking [off-topic]:

But still, I don’t get the fuzz over Omar “Molly”:

He was DJ like 5 years ago, at, let’s say, the Ambiance Café based in Grenoble (as I understood, the club behind

Like he does not even know how to spell his favourite rapper correctly, he mistyped as for many Frech site have .com domains.

He’s wearing an expensive watch/the copy of an expensive watch he bought when he visited family like 3 out of 5 Frech male between 25 and 39 do (me too).

Claire Schutz’s a regular in Ambiance Café at that time. She ends up being one of his 652 online friends. I have not yet found a photo of the two together.

His nickname “Molly” being close to “Mollier” just a coincidence.

You guys here, bring me up to speed, what’s the matter with exactly *this* guy?

11-7-2012 at 14:41:50

@ Marilyn:

Dutch = Afrikaans = Flamish?

11-7-2012 at 14:46:19

@ Peter re the Luger Pistole 06 gun:

That’s how conspiracy theories work for me:

1.) Killer used a gun considered not at all professional.

2.) But he used it on purpose.

1.) + 2.) He is professional after all.

If 1.) + 2.) was true: why do not all professional killers kill with old unregistered jam-prone guns?

I discussed the fact he seems to have used gloves even to load his gun for hours last week off-line:

The gloves don’t make him anymore professional in my opinion, every local gun psycho would do it even before knowing he would hit somebody the other day.

11-7-2012 at 14:57:31

@ Alexander Cartier

My argument was that the gun used makes him a *local* rather than a “professional” (I hate that word when applied to killers anyway). I don’t think that he is a professional hitman: Those people use modern common-or-garden guns that cannot be traced to them and throw them away after use. By contrast, I see the Chevaline killer as a local who didn’t want to risk using his more modern guns because those are all registered in his name.

11-7-2012 at 15:05:19


Glad you had to smile when reading the ‘baguette’ scenario:)

Anyway ‘But still, I don’t get the fuzz over Omar “Molly”’

The fact that hi5’s CS page only has 1 friend ref namely Molly is at least significant in understanding CS’ previous relations

I not interested in his watch, but I would be interested to know if M has a moto (just for my info)

11-7-2012 at 15:12:57


No, let us not get overexcited over Molly. Because who is going to play him now that you will play the cyclist. 🙂 I just thought him interesting because he is the girlfriend’s only friend, and the only one she appears as “friend of” (with 600 others). I also have the feeling that she created that site for some reason at that time, and then never actually used it anymore.

When I look at all photos that I can find from the time and area (and the right age group) I start to recognize certain people that reappears on these photos, so I am simply trying to establish their relationship. Seeing if it is possible to find some previous interesting boyfriends.

11-7-2012 at 15:14:24

@Peter re: Premeditated murder.

I am pleased that someone here agrees with me that this was not a nutter killing for kicks. You’ve stated your case well,Peter.

I have a thought about the choice of gun.

Hired killers are often (even mostly) demobbed soldiers from the former Communist Bloc. You would without doubt remember the Dieter Krombach/Kalinka Bamberski case. Kalinka’s father Andre hired three men to kidnap Krombach, to drive him to France and to dump on a street for the French police to find him, arrest him and put him on trial for the rape and murder of the 14-year-old Kalinka. The three were wrongly said to be Russians. They were not. The website I reported this crime for is under maintenance so I can’t get to my article, but they were not Russians, from one of the Soviet republics perhaps, but I can’t remember. Bamberski said they had contacted him after having read about his daughter’s death and that Germany was refusing to extradite Krombach, and offered to go and get him and bring him to France.

What I am getting at by mentioning this is that there are ‘hired guns’ about and, their target hit and dead, they return to where they’d come from. Those who wanted to take Saad Al-Hilli out would have hired such men. They bring their own guns and ammo, and these are not the newest deadly weapon on the market but old stuff going for a couple of euros or dollars in the underworld, but no less deadly.

And this is what I think happened in Chevaline.

11-7-2012 at 15:17:33

@Alexander : re: language and Molly

Yes, I am sure we kind of fooled around with all of them.

As for Molly. If he is aware of his sudden notoriety, he may not be pleased, or he may be. But maybe we should now let him be.

11-7-2012 at 15:38:40

This blog is in a constant ‘time warp’ … with post popping up in the past:)

11-7-2012 at 15:39:22

Gamers refer to this as ‘lag’ 🙂

11-7-2012 at 15:44:41

@M re: time warp

Two from you as follows:
Submitted on 2012/11/07 at 15:39
Gamers refer to this as ‘lag’

Submitted on 2012/11/07 at 15:38
This blog is in a constant ‘time warp’ … with post popping up in the past:)

M, it would be interesting for me if you have noted the time you sent these two to compare it to the time I received them.

When I reply to a comment I do so on admin which could explain a ‘time warp’.

11-7-2012 at 15:51:23

@ Marilyn

I’m sorry, but I beg to differ regarding the gun. Look at what’s going on in Marseille: Those gangsters all use AK47s. Everybody rooted in the criminal underworld, as any “hired gun” would surely be, could easily get hold of a weapon that may not be state-of-the-art, but still quite modern and fit for purpose: a Makarov, a Tokarev, a CZ, an FN Hi-Power or something like that.

Unless he has a particular fetish about vintage Swiss Army weapons (an idea that I have also entertained), the Chevaline killer obviously lacks the criminal connections that would enable him to purchase an untraceable ex-Soviet-Bloc or ex-Balkans weapon, for less than half of the sum than the P06 would have cost him. The P06 is anything but old stuff going for a couple of Euros – it is a prized and expensive collectors’ item. Hence, I do not see him as a hired gun from far away, but as a local shooting enthusiast with an unblemished police record (the latter is a prerequisite for the former) who was cautious enough to choose this unregistered collectors’ piece rather than one of his registered firearms.

How this idea of an ostensibly law-abiding local using his only unregistered gun fits into the overall picture is a different matter. What would drive such a person to commit a crime of this nature is difficult to explain, alas.

11-7-2012 at 15:59:48

@Peter & Marilyn

In my country small gangsters even use AK47s to rob banks! That I regard as overkill (if you excuse the expression).

11-7-2012 at 16:01:04

A little illustration to my comment on motive above:

11-7-2012 at 16:06:04

@Peter (and others) re. Gun

So was Killer X taking a ‘risk’ when using the luger? (aware, on purpose?)

As in the ‘luger’ being a much more specific weapon than a mass market killer gun like the AK47. In other words, if Killer X premeditated the killing, why not go that extra mile, purchase a run-of-the mill non-traceable AK47, etc. and use that … in stead of a ‘specific’ weapon which might point more easily back onto him

Or, perhaps Killer X grabed the Luger because it was the only available to him and he had to do the killing there and then (with no time to arrange for a more run-of-the-mill gun)

11-7-2012 at 16:12:50

@M on guns

If you don’t have a criminal background where do you go to find a weapon like an AK47? I wouldn’t know. Put an ad on the internet, AK47 wanted…?

No, I also think that he already had the weapon available, perhaps it even “triggered” him to go ahead.

11-7-2012 at 16:19:16

@ M, Lars

I think the killer was being risk-averse. An unregistered P06 is just as untraceable as an AK47, and the guy who sold the P06 to you some years ago at a weapon collectors’ fair is less likely to have a lucrative sideline working as a police informer than an underworld “armourer”. He is also far less likely to think: “Oops, is the Chevaline killer the guy from Grignon (or whatever) who bought that piece from me last week?”

11-7-2012 at 16:24:18

@Lars (and others)

Because it narrows the profile

Killer X could handle guns (fast reloads), stable shot (headshots) … points to a experienced shooter

Yet he didn’t have a run-of-the-mill gun??

Now, if Killer X was an ‘experienced shooter’ but he could NOT get hold of a run-of-the-mill gun (e.g. AK47, etc) … that limits his profile

His profile being a:

– experienced gun user
– yet a FIRST TIME killer (no criminal bg)

We already ruled out more or less the ‘pros’ (Mossad types), and now we rule out the criminals as well (incl hired gun types)!!

11-7-2012 at 16:28:14

The gun:

Peter, the Luger fell apart. This says to me that it was no longer in a good condition and no longer had any kind of value/price on the gun market. The killer could therefore have bought it very cheaply,and he had done so because he did not have the kind of money he would have needed to buy a AK47.

Lars, here too the AK47 is king of guns. As Peter pointed out the gangland shootings in Marseilles are all carried out with AK47s. There has been 23 such shootings in Marseilles this year and there will undoubtedly be a few more before December 31.

The AK47 has become a real menace. As you will all know it was the freedom fighters’ favourite weapon in Africa’s wars of independence in the 1970s/80s. Now with colonialism something of the past, other markets had to be found for this Soviet/Russian export.

You must all read Lars’ link to the mass killing (5) in Moscow over a relationship breakup. I wonder if the shooter had been reading our comments.

M, I think with so many unregistered firearms about these day, most firearms are untraceable. If you have murder in mind, you are not going to apply to the police for a gun permit and then register the gun when you have bought it from the registered gun dealer. You are going to go to where you can buy one ‘under the table’ because it has come ‘off the back of a lorry’. Therefore, going through gun records, won’t be how the owner of this Luger is going to be found.

11-7-2012 at 16:34:24

@ Marilyn

My best friend is a leading criminal defense lawyer, whose clientele use AK47s as tools of their trade, like painters use a paintbrush. I am therefore somewhat familiar with the going prices: Any underworld armourer would happily swap you an AK47 plus a pistol of your choice for a P06.

11-7-2012 at 16:35:39

Peter, Even a P06 that’s falling apart?

11-7-2012 at 16:39:32

@ Marilyn

The P06 must have been in good condition. The fact that some piece fell off after the gun was used as a club, or dropped to the ground, does not signify that it was a rusty piece of junk to start with. Even in rough, rusty condition, it would still be worth more than a basic chinese AK47, though.

11-7-2012 at 16:40:44

Peter, are the Chinese making AK47s too now?

11-7-2012 at 16:44:16

@ Marilyn

Of course they do.'s_kalashnikovs.pdf

The magazines in particular are said to be of inferior quality to other varieties, though. (As a German, I would of course prefer the AK74 that communist East Germany produced under licence.)

11-7-2012 at 17:05:23

Peter, I really thought that the AK47 was manufactured only in the Soviet Union.

So, the Luger being expensive, I change my profile of the Chevaline killer. He wasn’t a hard-up guy from the former Communist Bloc but someone who knew his guns.

I do still believe he was on the lay-by to finish unfinished business, although the solution was not necessarily planned to have been death. But he was the type who, when on a mission like that, felt being armed was to his advantage.

11-7-2012 at 18:38:34

Marilyn do you vette the comments? Not sure if I should post this or direct privately do those doing the research but do not know how (technically challenged!) so pls process as you see fit. Thank you.

@M, Lars, Alexander, All

Those of you looking at the social media pages for CS, brother and friends, some of the links lead to forums. My time and limited French do not allow me to provide info but those you may wish to dig that way will the links. No idea if anything of interest will show up there.

11-7-2012 at 19:23:26


Thank you! I try to follow every link (trace) that I believe might be useful.

11-7-2012 at 19:44:12

“Some loose thoughts”:

Now when were a talking about the weapon and shooting experience I came to think about a subject we talked about earlier, the grandfather’s old Luger in the drawer. Maybe this weapon did not come from a drawer but perhaps grandfather’s old weapon nonetheless had been useful.

The killer obviously has shooting experience and had the ability to very quickly change the magazine. This points of course towards someone with some practise. Shooting experience you can get at a gun club or perhaps from hunting (very different kind of weapon though), from the police force and the gendarmerie. But, if the Le Monde-scenario is correct, to run and quickly change the magazine also require some practise.

Perhaps this guy grew up there at the french-swiss border, with old weapons from WWII around him, including grandfather’s old Luger, that was not fit for use anymore. So he was allowed to play with it, run around in the mountains playing war games. He could then have learned how to change that magazine very quickly, perhaps even with empty casings inside.

11-7-2012 at 20:34:47

We also talked about this … WHY 3 clips? (if X was only after SM)

The only satisfying answer must be … out of habit.

The ‘out of habit’ could redirect and pointing towards guys with that habit

So we have (assuming X was after SM):

– Non-pro (sort of messy killing)
– Non-criminal (prolly, would use AK47/makarov etc)
– Can handle guns (reloads)
– Takes Luger to ‘mask’ other gun (possibly, or only one available)
– Out of habit guy (3 clips, or takes luger+clips from an ‘out of habit guy’)
– Leaves no traces (in the know)
– Motorbike (if it is the motorbike guy)
– Fit and not too old (agility during gunfight, motorbike drive on parallel wood route)
– Explosive (Zainab beating)
– Determined (ambush, timing, collateral AH killings)
– Circle SM (motive still unknown)
– Hate towards SM (SM must die dedication)
– Local (knows the region/Martinet/parallel routes)

11-7-2012 at 20:45:56

Perhaps the grandfather also had 3 clips in the drawer. Does anybody know (Peter?) with how many clips these guns were distributed, for wartime use.

11-7-2012 at 21:08:28


I think you describe him pretty well.

I though still also have some feeling of amateurism, partly because of what Peter said earlier about the number of bullets, partly because of a general impression of the crime scene.

It seems to me like the killer, though a very able shooter, was not really used to do anything similar to this.

Something like, you can play the piano very well, but you have not been taught how to play by a regular teacher. So you don’t sit right at the chair and you don’t always hit the keys in exactly the correct way, impossible to hear but for the very trained ear.

11-7-2012 at 21:09:07

I have had a few more ideas and would appreciate feedback on those.

Whether it was grandfather’s old P06 or one that the Chevaline killer bought at a collectors’ fair is immaterial for my argument, what counts is that he is an experienced shooter who *must* own or at least have access to more modern firearms. Yet he chose to use that old, with 99.9% probability unregistered, P06. He is not part of the criminal underworld, does not have the contacts that would have allowed him to purchase a € 500 AK47, which would have made killing all those people so much quicker and easier.

Therefore, in all probability, he does not have a criminal record. Yet, he chose to play it safe and use that old P06 rather than his modern pistol, and he was very, very careful not to leave any forensic trace evidence behind. In that respect, he almost overdid it: Why bother, unless your DNA and prints are already in some database?

Initially, I thought that this high degree of forensic awareness and the “low-risk” choice of gun pointed towards familiar with police procedure; not a professional killer, but rather a professional investigator, or somebody very familiar with police investigative procedures. On second thoughts, however, it could point in a wholly different direction: Somebody who expected the police to come knocking on his door, because, at least to his mind, his motive is crystal-clear.

Taking this further, I thought about the killer trying to kill Zainab by beating her to death. Psychologically, shooting somebody is almost the diametrical opposite of repeatedly hitting somebody over the head. The former is clean, killing at a distance; the latter is close, personal and messy, literally involves getting your hands dirty. Why did the Chevaline killer try to beat little Zainab to death? My suggestion: He did it because he feared that she might identify him in a police identity parade. Why would he fear that? Because, again, to him, his motive is totally obvious. He expected to be in the frame for this murder / these murders.

In my opinion, the choice of the P06 and his easy escape from the scene of the crime make the killer a local; the effort that he invested into not leaving any forensic evidence behind plus the fact that he attempted to kill Zainab make him a local with a very strong motive, which he expected the police to pick up on. Given that the AHs were strangers to this place, whereas SM belonged there, it seems more likely that this (to the killer’s mind) obvious motive pertained to SM rather than the AHs. I’m still not wholly convinced that the AHs were merely collateral victims, but the idea that SM was the primary target makes more and more sense to me …

11-7-2012 at 21:13:07

@ Lars, re: number of magazines for wartime use

As far as I know, the P06 was distributed in the Swiss Army with one spare magazine, plus various accessories (cleaning kit, holster, loading tool, manual), plus the “pocket ammunition” to be kept at home together with the pistol.

11-7-2012 at 21:26:18

@ER : re: vetting comments

It’s happened that I could not pass a comment, but rarely. Where I did I always told the commentator that I did so and why.

I see no reason why your comment needed vetting though.

11-7-2012 at 21:27:52

Have to be off. Tomorrow …

11-7-2012 at 21:36:58


I like your analysis 🙂

I can only add a couple of small things.

Perhaps he was also afraid to leave his DNA at the crime scene, because he was at least related to some persons close to the victim(s). The DNA sample will show that the killer is related to the sampled person.

I don’t know the practise in France but here it is now common practise to take DNA samples from all people involved in a crime. There has even been a debate if that this is an intrusion into your privacy, if you are really not a suspect.

I don’t quite understand your argument regarding the older girl. Why would it be better to hit her than to shoot her? I actually think that the chance that she can identify anyone is (sadly enough) very slim, even without being shot and hit.

11-7-2012 at 21:46:22

@ Lars, Oui, Max re the hi5 social media site of Claire Schutz:

Beware! Other than on FB a member can see if another member was on his/her page! At the end of the day it’s a dating site…this being the reason why Omar “Molly” was Claire’s only friend? He simply wanted to get to know her?

@ Max:

Please answer on the “hundreds” of Omar’s photos! Did I miss out on something?

The second Claire Schutz page that you linked to has been active like three months ago…

@ Marilyn:

Read you tomorrow!

11-7-2012 at 21:49:38

Yup, Peter. Good analysis!

Beating the girl. Lars, is perhaps obvious when he ran out of ammo!

But if X is ‘obvious’ but leaves NO traces (good for him) … but he still also needs an alibi! Ok, the murders took no longer than say 90 minutes (including return trip), still he has to account for this (if questioned by the police)

11-7-2012 at 21:51:09

@ Peter, all re the “talking gun” (Jack Drummond murder/l’affaire Dominici):

It stuck with me that the killer might be Ex-military/Ex-law enforcement/current military/current law enforcement:

one clip and two spare in the holster, just like the sewer searching gendarmes on the Chevaline phot.

11-7-2012 at 21:51:25

@Alexander Regarding: Molly

Could be, but that doesn’t explains why she appears among all these “scandal beauties” on his site. She and and couple of other Grenoble-girls stand out in that collection.

11-7-2012 at 21:56:06


Hundreds of friends(!), not photo’s:)

Anyway, as C has ONLY M as a friend, it is safe to assume that at least C was interested in M (the other way around … well the guy looks being interested in more than 1 female lol)

I am curious if M was interested in C … he accepted her invite alright (but that doesn’t say so much with 600+ freinds)

11-7-2012 at 21:56:38


I have hitherto seen three reasons why he hit the girl:

a) out of ammuntion
b) weapon got stuck
c) he saw the RAF man coming and was afraid of being heard

11-7-2012 at 22:01:26


c) would rule out motorbiker=KillerX (for the record)
b) would be very unlucky as he just did 6+ headshots and a few more to SM, and it would ‘jam’ just on the last 2 bullets for Zainab (but possible)
a) ranks 1st imo

11-7-2012 at 22:03:51

@ Lars

I consider it highly likely that the killer had run out of ammunition by the time that he pistol-whipped Zainab. Thus, the choice that he faced at that point in time was one between leaving her injured-but-likely-to-survive (from that shot to the shoulder) or killing her by any means left at his disposal. My argument was that, even though this probably went against the grain for him, the Chevaline killer pistol-whipped her because he feared that she might be able to recognize him at some point in the future. He probably did not stop beating her until he was convinced that she was already dead.

Your point about (one or more of the) victims’ DNA potentially pointing towards the killer is a very neat one, though. Kudos for that 🙂

11-7-2012 at 22:06:22


b) maybe he dropped his gun (as Peter suggested) or even fell on his way towards the reversing car, might have made his weapon or magazine “jam-proned”?

11-7-2012 at 22:12:43

Prequel scenario:

C has a crush on X. Tries to contact him. Success, but initally X is not serious about C.

But C ‘grows’ on X, she is ‘special’, ‘different’ from the other girls he knows. Not easy but refined (and a beauty in disguise).

But the more X is interested in C, the less C wants X because there are too many negative side effects … the 600+ ‘friends’ amongst others.

C wants serious things, X doesn’t.

In the end C goes for the much older but stable S. She is happy with S but now fears the reaction of X who even starts ‘stalking’ her.

X doesn’t give up on C and is enraged when he finds out C is so serious with S that she is pregnant of him.

X can’t accept a defeat, he is not used to a defeat. Memories of what could have been with C haunt him. He blames, even hates S.

It is payback time. Where, how, and when … the preparations start.

11-7-2012 at 22:15:48

brainwave: CS baby is X’s (CS knows, X knows, S doesnt)

11-7-2012 at 22:18:45


I don’t want to be vulgar and cheap, but remember that she is also very well-off, at least on paper and for a woman of her age.

11-7-2012 at 22:25:30

Last 2 posts (prequel) by me are pure speculations. I have no facts. It would be nice to know if M has a motorbike (license). Unfortunately none of the 50 pictures show this.

11-7-2012 at 22:29:05

Before I posted the new End Chapter of my book, I based the concept on relatives and close friendships of the CS family in Grignon and environs.

I thoroughly looked at the relations and started here:
CLAIRE SCHUTZ – Grignon May 7, 1983

I looked at the following items, dates, timeline as follows:
Parcours scolaire – Parcours club – Parcours entreprise – Parcours militaire

From CS is related GF (08-16-‘84) overlap in parcours club Belle Etoile and links his sister AC_F (07-21-‘84) and CS brother LS (08-11-’87), previously mentioned, which links to his uncle DS (20-11-’48) .

From here one links lifelong friends to military training:
7ème Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins en Bourg Saint Maurice. Twin bros. R. (09-01-’48) and PN (12-21-‘61) and 24ème Gc à Tubingen plus photo link here.

The 24th Battalion of Chasseurs was created May 27, 1871 by the merger of the former Imperial Guard Battalion and 21st Battalion de Marche. Later became motorised, dissolved in 1991 and a name change to become the Training Center and Combat Training in the Mountain – 24th Mountain Infantry Battalion (SCSTC – 24th BCA).

Looking at older generation of local Savoyards: military training, comrades, ski professionals, geography knowledge of environs and mountains, availability Swiss army weapons and ammo. No surprise here …

11-7-2012 at 22:32:16

Correction: year of birth AC_F should be ’81.

11-7-2012 at 22:43:43

@Lars .. vulgar and cheap

In what kind of world do we live in? 🙂 😉

11-7-2012 at 22:46:34


Welcome back!

Who is AC_F?

11-7-2012 at 23:30:52

Wow this thread is almost full again 🙂 I do agree with Peter this is the most logical scenario I’m not sure how much Zainab was hurt on the head maybe when she was shot she fell and hit her head and fainted therefore the killer taught she was dead we know about the injury to her head from the french police and if she was hurt as bad as you are describing she wouldn’t be able to fly back to uk as soon as she did so i don’t think it was that bad and also she wouldn’t have survived if a strong man would have hit her with the gun on her skull i’m sure there was a big exaggeration regarding her head wound I think Peter is nearer to solve the massacre .

11-7-2012 at 23:47:48


In my comment most persons are linked to their profile webpage. AC_F and brother GF are close friends to CS, are well educated and share the love for the skisport. The older generation performed their military training as I linked above.

11-7-2012 at 23:48:51

@ Oui:

Glad you’re back!

Nice you picked up on that “in which world…” thing of mine!

You know I wasn’t serOUIs about it, don’t you?

And yes, who’s AC_F?

I never got used to the “F”


11-7-2012 at 23:50:12

The madness of unrequited love . .
Very very very hard especially for youngsters awash with raw hormones.
I’ve been there . . . thankfully a lifetime ago.

11-8-2012 at 00:31:00


Lars from some days ago:

“But that is probably only male chauvinistic talk…. :)”

Lars from today:

“I don’t want to be vulgar and cheap, but…”

Got you on this one, buddy!


And pls don’t take it serious.

11-8-2012 at 08:30:35

Thursday, November 8. I wish you a nice commenting day.

11-8-2012 at 09:57:22


About that ‘Molly’ guy. You said there is no picture of M with CS. True, but funny that none of the 52 pictures show any girls. (Yet he has 600+ friends and looks like the ‘outgoing’ type). I’m not reading anything into this. Just pointing this out

11-8-2012 at 10:20:43

@ Max re brainwave:

If Sylvain Mollier’s child was in reality Omar “Molly”, Jr., we sure knew pretty soon!

11-8-2012 at 10:25:23


Interest in BMW motorrad. But no link to any familiar persons involved in the murder investigation?

I don’t see a further relationship developed between DJ Molly M. and CS.


The 52 pictures are mostly about “self” and his music friends. His link with MC Solaar is interesting, hiphop movement into jazz developed jazzmatazz and has roots in Grenoble. I wonder if Molly M played any instruments as well.

11-8-2012 at 10:28:37

Food digression:

Today the cook Laurent Laffont from Grenoble has teached me (on the radio) how to make “Soupe au fromage” (Cheese soup) with the Savoie cheeses Comté and Tomme de Savoie, white wine and crème fraiche.

Bon Appétit!

11-8-2012 at 10:31:12

@ Oui:

Who has interest in BMW motos? You? Me? The killer?

Just ask, I’m no expert, but I have one, nevertheless a Suzuki.

Jazzmataaz’ Grenoble roots? Not bad.

11-8-2012 at 10:48:57

Still that ‘Molly’ guy is important I think.

CS’ only motivation to sign up on hi5 seems to be him. A ‘crush’ does NOT disappear within days. The fact that the friends link M-CS exists means it is somewhat ‘official’ (probably on her initiative). They surely DO know each other. Question is: HOW serious was this.

What is the average time of a serious ‘crush’? Could 2007-2010 be the timespan?

11-8-2012 at 11:36:25

Max, Omar “Molly” has female friends in:

France, Kuwait, Costa Rica, Spain, Ecuador, UK, Mexico, Romania, Israel, Portugal, Tunisia, Egypt, Colombia, China, US, Benin, Dom. Rep., Morocco, Venezuela, Ghana, Brazil, Peru, Lebanon, Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Switzerland, Italy, Thailand, Yemen, Panama, Russia, Canada, Iraq, Belgium, Oman, Algeria, Poland, Senegal, Syria, Zimbabwe, Germany, Ukraine, Jamaica, Guyana, Greece, Slovenia. Around the world in a day.

What did Turkey and the Netherlands do wrong:)

I think the US locations are fake. Just like everybody wants to live in “California, US”.

I’d say this guy has a serious crush on women in general.

I don’t know how Claire Schutz ever got on his friends list.

But she’s like totally atypical.

She might be the only one wearing a pullover *and* she might be the only female to be not photographed in profile and/or from above so one can not distinguish her physical features.

I’d say the guy is operating as of today out of Tunisia.

He’s like importing Romanian women into Tunisia or Latin-American women into Tunisia or both.

Or he just traveled in South America.

Nothing criminal.

No connection to Chevaline whatsoever.

11-8-2012 at 12:20:09

@Alexander & Max

I don’t want this to evolve into a “Molly”-discussion, because it is probably only a sidetrack, but a couple of small comments:

I agree with Alex. that a lot on that hi5 site are just made up, wrong names, wrong countries, wrong age. So are probably also “Molly’s” name and age, however he must have stayed in Grenoble at the time. He also spell his name with capital letters.

I also agree that the girlfriend, and a couple of other serious looking girls from the Grenoble area, stand out in his strange collection. I think that indicates at least that these girls really knew him, the others are just his internet playmates. It can also be noted that he does not appear among the brother’s friends.

11-8-2012 at 12:35:32
11-8-2012 at 13:22:31

The fact remains that CS’ hi5 account which she created herself (twice) with ‘Laurent’ as test friend only has 1 other friend link, namely ‘Molly. And that is significant. If you like it or not.

If one want to check ex-BF leads, this is one. No denying possible.

At that time she was 25, well educated, brains … so no excuses there.

If SM took the place of ‘Molly’ that is also significant (there are atm no clues of more BF’s of CS … so this is atm what we have to do with)

11-8-2012 at 13:27:50


the first test account that you linked to yesterday has no friend at all other than her brother.


11-8-2012 at 13:31:57

@ Max:

“Brains”? What do we know about her brains:)


11-8-2012 at 13:33:31

@AC .. roots should read “footing”

Looking at Molly M I found an affiche of a group – 2009, any familiar faces? See also musicians at and the Combo Fusion à Cybèle. On retrouve des anciens de l’école comme Thibaud Saby aux claviers, Bruno Simon a la guitare, Jon Boutellier au sax ténor, Robinson Khoury au trombone, Sylvain Felix au sax alto et Sébastien Chetail au trombone.

Photo of MC Solaar – Moi – Dave

Jazz à Vienne: (voir le site [fr]) Théâtre Antique :
Roy Hargrove RH Factor invite MC Solaar (Roy Hargrove: trompette, bugle ; Bruce William: Sqax alto, flûte ; Jason Marshall: sax baryton, flûte ; Todd Parsnow: guitare ; Jonatan Batiste: claviers ; Lenny Stallworth: basse ; Jason “Jt” Thomas: batterie; MC Solaar: voix)

Guru’s Jazzmatazz. MC Solaar – Le Bien Le Mal

MC Solaar is best known outside of France for his work on Guru’s Jazzmatazz project and as a guest rapper on the Missy Elliott track “All N My Grill”. Collaboration with Elliot propelled him to higher popularity in the American market. The single “Le Bien, Le Mal” (The Good, The Bad) has been a Hip Hop/Dance crossover hit and has received playtime on MTV, which characterizes his work this way: “His fluid phrasing makes up for his lack of English, and the production on his solo work (by DJ Jimmy Jay and Boom Bass of La Funk Mob) surpasses that of most of his hip-hop contemporaries.”

11-8-2012 at 13:36:58



This indicates that she REALLY wanted to get on HI5:)

My expertise amongst others is ‘computer users’ and I can guess what happened here:)

CS trying to ‘create an account’ (apr 12) .. complaning it doesn’t work, and trying again a couple of days later (apr 16) with the help of Laurent … resulting in 2 accounts

11-8-2012 at 13:45:31
11-8-2012 at 14:13:49

Video MC Solaar, at 1:29 is that Molly M? Did they work together?

11-8-2012 at 14:33:29

Hi5 social network site –
General. Popular in Nepal, Mongolia, Thailand, Romania, Jamaica, Central Africa, Portugal and Latin America. Not very popular in the USA.

Laurent Schutz May 22, 2007 friends 11x
Youth tried Hi5 in a briefperiod in 2007, probably out of curiosity. Did not last long. Molly M. probably just a chance encounter, nothing to see here. Back to the real business …

11-8-2012 at 14:48:23

‘Back to the real business …’

Which is?


11-8-2012 at 15:51:37

I don’t remember if these news have been posted here earlier, but I have been looking for them: Des ossements humains découverts hier (

11-8-2012 at 16:21:54

@Lars : re: human remains found beside car

Happened in June, but it is interesting all the same. I think the body was identified.

Just checked: Yes, the body was quickly identified as that of Eloise Lacombe, 28, who had dropped out from society.

11-8-2012 at 17:02:35

Hi folks,

Just hqving q look as to where you are zith the cqse – I’m on a mercy mission in the UK using a qwerty boqrd !

I wonder how long CS and Sylvain had been together ? Anyine know how to access the address in Ugine, the one overlooking the main square opposite the church?

11-8-2012 at 17:05:21

Hello Lynda,

Have you gone to Buck House to keep Her Majesty, the old dear, company?

I also use a qwerty board. Can’t type on a French keyboard.

11-8-2012 at 17:14:16

what about this sylvain:

a bit bluebirdish, i know….

11-8-2012 at 17:51:55

@George : re: meetcrunch

Looks like a man, I would say, who can attract a 29-year-old.

Do we have a way to find out when this ad was posted?

Something of Dan Craig in his face. Way he stands too which was probably the idea.

11-8-2012 at 18:34:31

Such a sun tan belongs to a boatsman, not a cyclist IMO.
Valette, Sylvain 45 ans
Sylvain Valette rue Bosset 14390 Petiville tel. 06 71380469 – location

11-8-2012 at 18:45:43

Phew, Oui, you saved my day, I would have never played the role of *this* Sylvain!

Even I do look better than him!

Sorry Marilyn, you know I’m not into men, but if I was, I wasn’t anymore after seeing him!

11-8-2012 at 18:47:35

@ Max:

I give you (and her) the brains!

Quite impressive!

11-8-2012 at 19:49:05

Now that is very, very strange: A man in a dark 4×4 threatened motorists with a handgun in two separate incidents, at Annecy and at Faverges, during the night after the Chevaline murders:

That article was mentioned on a french forum dedicated to the Chevaline murders:

I have found a follow-up article to the original one:

@ all
Could you please help dig up some more information on these strange incidents?

11-8-2012 at 20:03:02


Now that is what I call ‘road rage’ 🙂

I’m not reading much into this (apart from the 4×4 reference which in that region seems pretty normal) but it is good to have it noted! Thx.

11-8-2012 at 20:15:44
11-8-2012 at 20:15:54

@ M

A hooded (that is how I read “encagoulé”) nutter stopping two cars in the middle of the night and threatening the drivers with a handgun on the night after the murders, at 3 and 4 in the morning, respectively? And you are just shrugging that off as “road rage”? Three and four in the morning is hardly rush-hour time – that doesn’t sound at all like road rage to me.

11-8-2012 at 20:17:39

Sorry better link:

Mollier playing boule:

11-8-2012 at 20:29:50

@ Peter:

But hasn’t that incident been also mentioned in a certain English speaking forum dedicated to the Chevaline murders?

By Pete.R.:

“Also what’s the follow up on the following story:

Is this true or just someone after some publicity?”


By Alexander Cartier:

“@ Pete R.:

“Le Dauphiné” did not further report on the story cause it’s not connected in any way to the killings, I guess.

“Arme de poing” reads to me as “blunt weapon”, alas not a gun. Car was out of Isère, neither British nor Haute Savoie local.

Just your everyday mad Frech driver sporting his dark-tinted-windshields SUV going crazy about the women driving her Clio too slow along the lake side.”

What I wrote about blunt weapon is just nonsense. I have since gotten my French right.

11-8-2012 at 20:46:11

@ Alexander Cartier

To my shame, I must have missed that exchange 🙁

Anyway, I think that the gendarmerie are already looking into that angle when they talk of a “road rage” incident possibly being the starting point of the Chevaline killings. Read without the context of these two strange incidents, the notion of the Chevaline killings having been triggered by a road rage incident – What? Up there, in that isolated spot? – makes no sense whatsoever. Taken *in conjunction* with the events of the following night, however, it seems a promising avenue of enquiry, though.

11-8-2012 at 21:12:31

Wait, Peter and Max,

imagine you had, let’s say, committed a quadruple homicide one afternoon.

And just when *the world* is out there looking for you you go out threatening drivers on the road *one* night later?

Who would seriously do both things?

11-8-2012 at 21:14:14


pls forget about the “Max” notion in my latest post.

I got it wrong who wrote what.

11-8-2012 at 21:25:22

Say it again. Although I do not think this particular ‘road rage’ incident is related to Ch. I still give thumbs up for Petter in mentioning/finding this. (it sits now back in my mind … who knwos:) Because we need this kind of coincidence/luck/weird thing to crack this murder case.

Somewhere, somehow, the Killer X must ‘slip up’ … so, I am all of ‘Peter’ like awareness:)

11-8-2012 at 21:30:57

@Alexander and Oui : re: tanned boatman

No one ever said Dan Craig was good-looking.

11-8-2012 at 21:41:39

I think of this (now) as a premeditated murder, well planned, much less well performed, by a local man (at least grew up there).

He then probably also had planned what to do afterwards, not any stupid things that would raise suspicion from the police, rather lie low or if possible get out of the area for a time, be out of the way, go on a trip, like a safari in Africa.

11-8-2012 at 21:48:10

Re: Hooded man with gun threatening woman driver.

If the Chevaline killer is a nutter then threatening someone with a gun the very next night is exactly what he would do. He wouldn’t think rationally, and he had tasted blood and wanted more. Once a lion or any other fierce animal has attacked a human being he has to be killed because he will attack again. Same when a dog has attacked someone: that dog is put to sleep because he will attack again.

11-8-2012 at 21:49:10

Will now leave you. Tomorrow is another day.

11-8-2012 at 21:50:43

@ Lars:

I used the second link, I am looking at a crystal clear picture of “Le Dauphiné”, page 9, 15th of May 2012.

We do see 6 guys on the photo. One (probably the guy a little bit further in the background) must be Cyril Bonnard, he handed out the trophy.

4 of the remaining 5 guys should’ve been the finalists.

Sylvain Mollier was out two rounds earlier, in the last 8 (quarter-final).

Remains one guy who I can’t tell who he is.

Even supposing they did not ask one of the four guys who lost the final four (semi-final) and were therefore one round further than our Sylvain Mollier:

if the asked one last 8 (quarter-final) looser to pose with them on the picture who tells us that he is not:

a) Chaudan,
b) Simal,
c) Pommat?

Plus, five of the six guys on the picture are too old be 44 and the remaining one might be too young.

11-8-2012 at 21:54:41

@ Lars / cont’d – sorry I missed out on one thing:

And given the amount of Molliers in Ugine who tells us it was *Sylvain* who participated?

@ Marilyn:

Good night.

11-8-2012 at 21:57:08

@ Lars / third part:

45, that is, “too young to be 45”.

11-8-2012 at 22:06:05


You are right on all points. But I wrote only Mollier, no first name. I however thought it interesting enough to post it. Perhaps I could differ somewhat on looking too young, I like to think that he looked much younger than his real age.

11-8-2012 at 22:08:59


The boules playing Mollier is possibly Andre Mollier who is reported in the results on this page.

Following on from your comment about the body in the woods – I think this was the body of the female drug addict referred to in one of the UK newspapers a few weeks ago.

There have been three disappearances in the Albertville area over the last year or so. Two vanished whilst visiting the festival électro at Fort de Tamié. Jean-Christophe Morin
disappeared on 10/09/2011.

Ahmed Hamadou vanished visiting the same festival nearly a year later, 8/09/2012

And a guy named Hugo went missing on 15/06/2012.

11-8-2012 at 22:40:00

You are a tricky guy, Lars, saying that you never wrote Mollier’s first name when everyone can see by your first photo link who you googled for!


11-8-2012 at 22:45:58

@ Y:

It’s a hell of a festival!

10/9/11 one person disappears

5/9/12 four people shot dead

8/9/12 another person disappears.

11-8-2012 at 23:06:51


Interesting comment form one of the people living nearby from Le Dauphine.

“Elle raconte des scènes presque incroyables : « des bagarres à la hache », la présence « de jeunes enfants »… Et assure que depuis quelques jours, des voitures circuleraient dans les environs du col : « il parait qu’ils cachent de la drogue dans la nature, afin de ne pas être contrôlés avec, par la Gendarmerie, lorsqu’ils viendront le jour de la fête. »”

11-9-2012 at 09:24:04

Friday, November 9

11-9-2012 at 10:45:14

I think I have detected the source of my unease about this event . . . after reading conspiracy speculation about the scenario elsewhere.
++ Britain has a complete idiot at it’s helm and is making warlike mutterings and posturing about, trying to sell expensive weaponry abroad. It all kinda fits doesn’t it?
My favourite movie last year was “Inception” by the way.

11-9-2012 at 11:08:49

I have changed my mind on the “hooded nutter” threatening motorists with a handgun: Having reread the articles, the hooded nutter was a *passenger* in the dark 4×4 registered in the department Isère – rightly or wrongly, I don’t see the Chevaline killer being part of a two-man team.

Given that these incidents happened during the night before the Elements III (7-9 September 2012) festival started, those two guys could have been drug dealers who had sampled too much of their own wares and thus developed a bout of paranoia.

11-9-2012 at 11:39:28

@ Oui
“For the birthday of Bera, one of the [Georgian billionaire Ivanishvili’s] albino sons, who is a famous rapper, the French ambassador organized a private session with French rapper MC Solaar.”

11-9-2012 at 11:55:11

@NR : re: MC Solaar session with French amb.

So that is what they do with our tax money.

11-9-2012 at 11:57:18

@J Cave : re: Weapon sales

Show me the Western government which is *not* selling arms. Does the Vatican counts as a government? If so, then it must be the only one not selling arms.

11-9-2012 at 12:02:42

@Y : re: Goings on in Upper Savoy ccording to Le Dauphine.

Unfortunately it is not only in Supper Savoy where what appears to be ‘ordinary folk’ go off the rails.

Here in Paris several cinema halls have cancelled showing of the films ‘Paranormal Activity’ and ‘Sinister’ because of violent scenes during and after the showings.

11-9-2012 at 16:04:24

The newspapers have fallen asleep, so have probably also the gendarmerie and Eric Maillaud.

A link to the girlfriend’s brother that I don’t think have been posted:

11-9-2012 at 16:35:42

@Lars : re: fallen asleep

The commentators too, Lars, have fallen asleep.

No, we’ve not seen this before. Thanks for it.

11-9-2012 at 16:39:52

Shooting at Swedish PM’s office.

Stockholm shooting

Do you know The Local? Good site for breaking news as it has several editions. Is Swedish, by the way.

11-9-2012 at 16:47:32
11-9-2012 at 16:59:04

@M : re: photos of L

I think SM was dark-haired. Second husband/dark-haired = first would have been too.

11-9-2012 at 17:12:25


I could add this site about the Ringot couple:

11-9-2012 at 17:17:22


Yes, I know the place, just next to the royal palace, it is actually where the PM also lives (at least now since he divorced).
It was one of his guards that commited suicide (sic!).

11-9-2012 at 17:29:07

@Lars, thx for the link

Dunno what to make of it. Seems pretty harmless. LR posting on her FB the day before. FR posting with overlap (before/after the killing) on FB. LR posting a JT @ FR on his FB on aug 31 … as said … look pretty sweet. ‘Too’ sweet? I really can’t tell

11-9-2012 at 17:33:14


As far as I can tell they seem to be a happy couple, pictures look like honey moon photos.

11-9-2012 at 17:45:02

@Lars, agreed. Good for them:) … but we still have a killer on the loose, a nasty killer. How can this guy be so invisible??? Especially IF he is local.

How can it be that SM seemed to be first (and only?) target yet the guy has no motives against him?

When there is a ‘wall of silience’ it is not possible to go for the ‘nutter’ solution, because you simply do not know what is BEHIND that ‘wall of silence’. To really go for the ‘nutter’ there first has to be ‘openness’ from the circle of SM. There seems to be no openness … only silence (and therefor I wont go for the ‘nutter’ yet)

11-9-2012 at 18:01:45

Guys (+dolls),

I am not even sleeping – I’m at work!


11-9-2012 at 18:18:19


Well, I can think of several motives circling around the girlfriend, or at least triggers, as I said before I believe that the murderer also has some mental/emotional deficit.

Wall of silence: It is very evident that the Mollier family, for some reason has been, and still is, a very reserved family. Avoiding (?) any kind of “publicity”. It is only the youngest Mollier generation that seems to be more open and appears on pictures and in documents. The cyclist’s father seems to have been a rather “public” and important figure in the local community, founder of the local rugby club etc., but still not a picture!

If I didn’t thought the opposite, one might think that they were an ugly bunch, since they have avoided every photographer. 🙂

This lack of information about the Mollier family present a difficulty, to create a picture of what kind of family that really is/was.

11-9-2012 at 18:46:11

@ Lars

At least for the time since the murders, the Mollier family’s silence can be explained with reference to standard police operating procedures: I believe that it is standard procedure for the police to warn victims’ surviving relatives to avoid any contact with the media and to stay away from social media.

Regarding potential grudges that someone might have held against SM, the motive could be either a fairly obvious and “innocent” one (e. g., another man coveting CS, or SM having an affair with the wrong man’s girlfriend/wife before he met CS), or something darker, uglier (e. g., CS having been sexually abused by a previous partner or a relative in the past and only recently opening up to SM about this, who thereupon confronted the abuser and threatened to report him to the police). In this particular case, I would favour the darker, uglier motive, if only because the police don’t seem to have worked out an obvious potential motive yet.

11-9-2012 at 18:58:11


Agreed. Even though in my country there are no such restrictions. As I wrote earlier we have a weakly TV program about crimes, and there relatives often come forward and tell about the victim(s) and show photographs, to help the investigation and to find witnesses.

For the Mollier family this silence however goes back as long as there are internet sources. If you compare with e.g. the Schutz family, about them it is simple to find all sorts of information and get a pretty good picture of that family.

This “Mollier silence” doesn’t have to be something “shady”, it can simply be a family trait, or have reasons that go way back in the family history.

11-9-2012 at 19:17:43

@ Lars

I see your point about the contrast between the Molliers and the Schutzes. A random thought: Could the Molliers’ abstinence from social media etc. have something to do with CEZUS’ corporate security policies?

11-9-2012 at 19:34:50

Could have, for the cyclist, though I have never heard of that type of restrictions, as long as you don’t talk about your work.
Anyhow that could not explain the silence about/from his father, mother, uncle, aunts, brothers and sisters through the internet history.

I should perhaps be a little more careful and say that we have not found much yet. I do not always trust Google.

11-9-2012 at 20:20:17

@ Lars

Well, it was just an idea, but we certainly had those rules at the bank where I used to work: Try never to use your real name on the Internet, but, if you must use your real name, never mention any factual details about yourself and never mention the name of your employer. (The excuse “Dear unknown Sirs, we’d just *love* to pay the ransom that you demand, but, unfortunately, we don’t have that amount of cash just lying around!” simply doesn’t work for bankers. Therefore, there is a high risk of abduction in the business.)

Perhaps CEZUS similarly want to nip any attempts at industrial espionage in the bud by discouraging their employees from revealing their place of work – or perhaps they don’t. It was just an idle thought.

11-9-2012 at 20:40:48


Explanation is simple and very basic. The Molliers are from a low-income part of the community. Head of the family Roger belonged to the communist party and later a member of the leftist Solidarity & Progress party. I’ve got the feeling Sylvain Mollier was not earning high wages as a welder at the Cézus plant. He cared for his two sons and rente dan appartment in Ugine.

The members of Schutz family are well educated, represented the Grignon community at a higher level and took part in activities with a high profile. Being from a wealthy family, both Claire and Laurent were visible on the social media. The same is valid for the extended family, uncles/aunts included.

Comparison to earlier generations when the wealthy could have their family photo’s taken in the late 19th century. Those from the common people couldn’t afford the costly invention of photography and were wiped off history and not remembered.

11-9-2012 at 21:22:02

@ Oui re the different families:


This would have been my point if you wouldn’t have made it already.

11-9-2012 at 21:23:00


Bank people are perhaps more restricted and careful than others. 🙂 As I have already said I work in a business full of restrictions, but what we do when we are not working, are still without restrictions, as along as we don’t talk about work. I have also come across many other workers at Cezus on the internet that are not so secretive.


I have had the same thoughts but have no hard facts to support it. Even though I believe the Communist party is much more accepted in France (and perhaps Italy) than in other western countries, it could perhaps be a reason to be a bit careful.

Funnily enough there is another (?) person with the same name as the cyclist living in Valence who is/has been very active in leftist circles. Since the cyclist is said to have lived his whole life in Ugine I have not been able to establish a link between them.

11-9-2012 at 21:30:46

Ugine’s Mayor is actually DVD – group of various right-wing parties. That part of France is right-wing and in our May presidential election many counties voted for Marine le Pen. So Sylvain’s father having been Communist must have made the family very popular locally.

11-9-2012 at 21:31:21

I’m off now.Till tomorrow. I had a tough day … but that is another story.

11-9-2012 at 21:54:12


Sylvain Mollier administrateur Systèmes / Réseaux chez Autajon Montélimar France

BTW, besides William Brett Martin who wiped his Internet presence, who else deleted personal profiles after the Alps murders? Wasn’t a Facebook entry of Sylvain Mollier deleted?

11-9-2012 at 22:02:13

I would wipe everything. But there are always traces. If you were not very active, the wiping is easy. If however you are an internet junkie, well forget about a complete wipe:)

But he horror when you are ‘connected’ with such a killing and have absolutely nothing to do with it. Yup, I think about that when skimming through the stuff of CS, M, LR and such … so you want to look at it like a surgeon. Clinical, without a personal ‘motive’.

11-9-2012 at 22:08:05


I don’t know if that is the same Sylvain Mollier as I meant, there are some persons with that name, especially in the southeast of France. The one I mean seems to have some relation with a Fabienne Mollier.

I have never heard that the cyclist had a Facebook account, if so could then anyone erase it? I have only heard that the girlfriend erased her.

11-10-2012 at 08:22:09

10 11 12

11-10-2012 at 09:47:18

I put this on Craig Murray. Maybe you will have a laugh with your morning croissants over a US spy and sex scandal.

The Petraeus biz could not get better or funnier – the TV coverage only lacks a laugh track. Now they’ve stolen the BM @ Chevaline script pages from MI6 or whoever has the copyright. Both left and right propaganda channels continually run looped vids of The General in full regalia, interspersed briefly with his testimony at the CIA confirmation hearings, where he wore a gray suit and assured all that he was hanging up his uniform.

The commentators sing his praises as the greatest, most noble and patriotic general since Eisenhower (who had a mistress, they remind us), and only a scurrilous fiend would suggest the general exposed himself to either blackmail or a fetching spy filching secrets from his boudoir. Besides, the woman in question (still unconfirmed that it’s his biographer) is surely a loyal American.

CNN is reporting raw tabloid gossip. “Our source, who has excellent connections inside the FBI tells us that while monitoring the general’s email, they came across one message that mentioned something happening “under the desk” which they thought was an “under the table” deal, but later realized it was “sex under the desk.” Anchor solemnly reminds us this is as yet unconfirmed.

Next item: The general and his paramour broke up, the general took it badly and stalked her with 15,000 emails. Also unconfirmed. The CIA is taking it badly that the FBI was peeking at their emails. The FBI took the info to the White House, but they refused to do anything ’til after the election.

Half the propagandists say this has absolutely nothing to do with the Benghazi or Iran shooting down the drone (also covered up pre-election). All agree Benghazi biz will now make mainstream news ’cause of sex scandal.

Still no steamy emails, sexts, sexty vids, or vid of the general’s wife clobbering him with a golf club. Oh, just thought, that’s a novel method of disposing of an inconvenient spy. Can I copyright that one?

11-10-2012 at 11:32:07

@NR : re: CIA disgraced general resigns

NR, our French papers are carrying the story. My first thought on seeing the headline was: Oh America! Grow up!

If an officer in the French secret services or armed forces must resign because he’s been emailing his lover, then half of the staff of the armed forces and half of the secret services would now be looking for jobs.

Our ‘new’ president Francois Hollande had, as you will know, 4 children during his relationship with former presidential candidate Segolene Royale, and now has a woman living with him and accompanying him as France’s ‘first lady’ where protocol permits. And no one lifts an eye brow.

I am not saying ‘live as the French do’, but this is 2012 and what a man or a woman gets up to is their business.

11-10-2012 at 11:57:18

@Marilyb Z.

Charged with derelict of duty for keeping act under cover.
The gossip media are mad because it was the FBI which got the scoop on the story!

Are we bombing Iran yet??

11-10-2012 at 12:17:36

This is the Sylvain that I mentioned above:

11-10-2012 at 12:22:44

I am still thinking about the Mollier-Schutz relationship. He was 16 years older, two boys from previous marriage, living in a very small city, and (according to Oui:) lower social status and absolutely not rich.

How did he succeed?

11-10-2012 at 12:40:26

@ Marilyn & Oui
There must be more to General Petraeus resigning than just an affair. After Kennedy and Clinton even in the US such things are expected if not as accepted as in Europe. Why the sudden resignation? He could have given his resignation “due to family matters” and left in 30 days.

11-10-2012 at 12:58:38

@ Lars

There is/was a left-wing activist called Sylvain Mollier based in Valence:
– active in the anti-nuclear monitoring group CRIIrad
– active as a “militant écologiste”

However, given that Valence is > 180 km away from Ugine, and given SM’s long-standing employment history at CEZUS, it is difficult to see how that could be *our* SM.

11-10-2012 at 13:14:40


Agreed. I just mentioned it because Oui talked about communist sympathies.

11-10-2012 at 13:19:14

Given that he attended a meeting on 18 October, that is not *our* SM

Shame, the link to the nuclear watchdog and his left-wing political leanings (Solidarité & Progrès pose as left-wing whenever it suits them) would have made such a nice fit.

11-10-2012 at 13:25:15

@ all

Before I start into the weekend, let me post some links here regarding the unsolved killings in the Chablais region:érie-autour-du-lac-léman?page=7#image=1

We have discussed those before, but perhaps it is worthwhile to look at them again.

11-10-2012 at 13:53:03

@Lars: re: How did SM succeed.

Lars, if you have to ask this, then you are really innocent.

11-10-2012 at 13:53:57

NR : re: more to General Petraeus not just an affair.

NR, maybe she was also having an affair with Putin.

Or the general was.

11-10-2012 at 13:55:42

@Peter : re: unsolved killings in the Chablais region.

Thanks for posting these links again. There seems to be quite a lot of killing going on there.

11-10-2012 at 14:21:01


Well maybe I am 🙂
I guess he must have been very charming, since he had nothing else to compete with?

11-10-2012 at 14:32:32

@Lars: re: How did SM succeed.

Ask me, for instance.


11-10-2012 at 14:40:35

@Lars re: SM’s success.

OK, Lars, he was very charming. If you wish.

11-10-2012 at 16:04:28

Lars’ question is spot on. HOW did SM succeed? And, more important, was his success only with CS (and for that I can think of some reasons, np) or was his ‘success’ with the whole Schutz clan? In other words, was SM totaly ‘accepted’ despite the facts Lars brings up (lower social standing, etc, etc)

Because if we can rule out the sex/partner/ex-bf motive, we can move along

11-10-2012 at 16:38:08

Good for Haute Savoie gendarmerie they are not paid based on success.

1995: rifle murder – unsolved

2009: rifle murder attempt – unsolved

2011: rifle murder – unsolved

2011: person disappears – unsolved

2011: three bodies found in lake – unsolved

2012: rifle murder – unsolved

2012: persons disappear – unsolved

2012: quadruple gun murder – unsolved

11-10-2012 at 16:49:52

Help me with this if you would for I couldn’t find the data for neither France nor the UK, but the percentage of capital crimes solved was in Germany in 2008:

97,6 % for murder


96,7 % for manslaughter.

I can’t but help to think France’s numbers might be somewhat lower.

11-10-2012 at 16:57:10

@Alexander. re: unsolved crimes

Alexander, great you pointing this out. I will keep it for future reference.

11-10-2012 at 16:57:58

@Alexander : re; capital crimes solved %tages.

I am sure France is lower.

11-10-2012 at 16:58:21

I’m off now. Till tomorrow …

11-11-2012 at 00:43:50

(ok, a serious thought/scenario to kick this comments section)

Reverse enginering (part of) the killing, with the motorbiker as killer X, and SM as first/only target

– We know the motorbiker (X) was seen/stoppped by the ONF
– This must have been on the way back from the killing
– It was very probably on the parallel road

– Now if X took the parallel road back he probably took this road also to go TO Martinet
– A parallel road is only needed when victim SM is cycling on the other road (otherwise why at all on the parallel road? to not been seen? possibly but I decided as follows …)

– X followed SM to Ch. and used the parallel road to get at Martinet first
– Followed is the KEYWORD!
– This in turn means that X probably followed SM starting from his house in Ugine
– This means X knew where SM lived (SM target)
– AND he premeditated the murder (plan=follow, ambush, kill)
– AND somehow knew SM was going for as trip (waited in Ugine for SM)
– AND very probably already knew he was going towards Martinet (use of parallel road was part of the plan)
– The motorbike is most efficient transport. Good on the parallel wood road, faster than a bike, easier to manouver around Martinet

IF this is all true, Killer X must have had inside information on SM’s plan (trip to Martinet). That must narrow down the search for Killer X

But if that is all true, WHY is it so difficult to catch the guy???

If all is true, but EM can’t catch him, Killer X must be a very clever person with an alibi (we already assumed he was, because of the very few clues he has left … the killing, although a massacre, seems very well planned. No traces??)

(btw, the ‘parallel road’ thing also can be used in case of a ‘nutter’ … the nutter would not neccessarily had to be waiting at Martinet … he could have waited in Ch. until he saw his ‘prey’ going up the road, then used the parallel road himself and arriving just before AH/SM and do his killing)

(well this blog lived for another day … we need new clues:)

11-11-2012 at 07:31:01

I am new, but have been following the story. That was a great stats posting on the murders as good if not better than Scotland Yards Blog which appears frozen. The Craig site has a server glitch not uncommon to apache servers resulting in the stack overflow we see. They should be up soon. On the homicide and disappearance stats makes me think only the killer(s) know this and had a high degree of confidence in their planning as well. French resources it seems obvious now are overstretched, notwithstanding an experienced killer..a repeat offender then he banks on this. He is risk averse as far as being id but clearly a gambler playing with loaded his favor. That they were forein victims..only helps cloud his acts as that would creat delays between diverse jurisdictions…the very ones we saw played out. So he/she/they to be politically correct are familiar with the game and hardly newcomers to this, and probably at least one of them is very local. and someone beyond reproach, even more so than the victims a policeman perhaps.

I have seen a report at another site that a Frederico Brun, died suspiciously, and that an adrdess of his corresponded to a Hairdresser interviewed at Cathys Coiffure.. IF I understood correctly at Craig before it went off. The same person is said to be a member of that mountain citizens group, basically a mini community support group with Sylvain . I don’t that would not be unusual because Sylvain had a small work contract awith the town of Ugine.
Support Committee

By Solidarity and Progress Friday, March 7, 2008, 12:00


To resist the antisocial policy of the Government,
To maintain, renovate or create public services accessible to all,
For a vibrant and solidarity for the benefit of all
For Ugine remains a “City in the Mountain”
So that all Uginois become fully involved the fate of their city, in an intermunicipal shared
BRUN Frédérique
M BRUN Alain
Mme/M BRUN Thérèse

Both Sylvain and Saad each changed their routine. The papers stated as much..Sylvains Partner Claire said he was taking a different route..Saad changed locations…Changing locations is a must when dealing with any kind of contraband or a drop off or exchange to avoid tailing..and or double cross and in cases elsewhere a triple cross.
That being said I would rule out a jealous the young Mollier.
I believe both were targets..the wives and kids were a surprise perhaps..
but not if the wife had been involved in prior events that went without a hitch and on prior s locations would be different.
In drugs and Gangland.that comprise a large number of these killings…if you look at cartel killing..everybody including kids go. Its well known you have to provide the heads with all family names insurance.
The French tradition of mums the word..
and erasing pictures that Saad avid photographer…and other peoples obliterate or obfuscate..has done just that..making our efforts near futile…and naturally..created a grand mistrust..are they hiding something or protecting people.
But..It takes a great power bigger than a simple have have search engines suddenly go everywhere except where we need to go.
I do not think this was Massad by any means..they have had so much practice in over a thousand assasinations..but not once children.that is not to say the same of their army…or ours or others..

I am curious what happened to Molliers first wife who divorced…and why she did not get the children..That takes very special person to give up..and a special person to have had sons want to be with him.

I have not heard any interviews with the ex’s or ex inlaws..unless she hailed from far away…that would be very interesting for anyone looking at the passion/grudge aspect.
The oldest Son Ill call Leo he calls himself..just signed up on youtube Oct 10, 202..he seems infatuated with a girl tweeting since Oct 2, 2011 but the conversation last tweet he just says. stoically so…life goes on.
A heavy Cross to bear indeed..

I think I will go crash now..Goodnite…and please keep up the stellar work..I’m just a Voyeur..You and the others are superb investigators..

11-11-2012 at 09:34:24

November 11. Remembrance Sunday. Are you wearing your Poppie flower?

11-11-2012 at 09:39:47

@M ; re :Followed is the KEYWORD!
– This in turn means that X probably followed SM starting from his house in Ugine
– This means X knew where SM lived (SM target)
– AND he premeditated the murder (plan=follow, ambush, kill)
– AND somehow knew SM was going for as trip (waited in Ugine for SM)
– AND very probably already knew he was going towards Martinet (use of parallel road was part of the plan)
– The motorbike is most efficient transport. Good on the parallel wood road, faster than a bike, easier to manouver around Martinet

IF this is all true, Killer X must have had inside information on SM’s plan (trip to Martinet). That must narrow down the search for Killer X

Good points you make here M. You ask why it is then so difficult to nail the killer down. I have another question: why SM? A welder? He had no information that could have endangered another country’s security which is what Shushu believes. (Shushu is on holiday until the end of the month.)

M, yes the comments are drying up, but I am certain you could have a good conversation with Mannie, a new commentator, who makes some excellent points.

11-11-2012 at 09:47:21

Good morning, all.

For the sake of “leaving no stone unturned,” I have taken another look at the unsolved 1995 murder of Pierre Marchal, a local politician and co-founder of a skiing club.

Marchal was shot in the back whilst seated at his desk in his isolated house (nearest neighbours approx. 100 metres away) in Lugrin on the lakeside of Lac Leman at around 19:00 in the evening. The shooter fired a small-calibre (.22LR) bullet through a window from a distance of 15 metres, severing Marchal’s pulmonary artery.

According to this later report
the killer used a Drulov pistol.

The circumstances of the shooting, and especially the weapon used, gave me pause: 1. The Drulov is a cheap, Czech-made, single-shot target pistol – it is the tricycle of pistols, the kind of first gun that young people buy, or have their parents buy them, after joining a shooting club. 2. The chances of killing a man with a single shot to the back from such a gun are quite low – from the killer’s point of view, that was an extremely lucky shot. 3. The chances are even lower when firing through a pane of glass, as in this case, as the glass is likely to deflect the bullet. For such a shot to work, the bullet must penetrate the glass at a perpendicular 90° angle – hence, this was an aimed shot, not a stray bullet.

There are several possible interpretations of the above, one being that this was not a serious attempt to kill Marchal at all, the object merely being to “teach him a lesson.” My preferred reading, however, is that this was some sort of malicious teenage experiment, perpetrated by a psychologically disturbed boy or adolescent who did not have access to a more powerful weapon. The *lesson* that the perpetrator would have learned from this is that it is possible to kill somebody with a .22 LR fired through a pane of glass. The latter is not something that they teach you in a shooting club.

As firing through glass panes also featured in two of the later unsolved killings / attempted killings – as well as in the Chevaline killings, where the killer shot the AH family through the windows of their BMW – this is an interesting commonality to bear in mind.

If my interpretation be correct, Marchal was killed by a teenager with a date of birth around 1980, which would make him approximately 42 today. As that teenager was unlikely to have had access to a car at the time, he must have lived in the immediate vicinity of Lugrin at the time. Regarding the long interval between this 1995 killing and the next (known) attempt in 2009, it could be a case of the killer having graduated from school and gone to study/work/live somewhere else in the meantime, or it could be a case of the killer having been so shocked at “succeeding” on his very first try that he lay low for all those years.

11-11-2012 at 09:50:55

@Mannie : Welcome. We’ve been talking since the day after the killings and we are still none the wiser.

We are not sure that Sylvain Mollier’s two sons by his wife lived with him and not with their mother. It appears that they were with the mother but had a good relationship with their father. The first wife has remarried as has been discussed here: she now uses her second husband’s surname.

I think Mossad is still on the minds of some of our commentators. But they do not bungle assassinations.

As for both Saad Al-Hilli and Sylvain Mollier having changed their routes and that being what happens with drug dealing, that is a good point you make.

Somehow I think that months will roll by without these killings being solved. Soon it will be Christmas and then the New Year celebrations and well … even the law in France goes on a go slow then.

11-11-2012 at 09:53:26

Brett oddities I:

I will this time only focus on one thing, Mr. Brett’s route:

In his interview he says he left his home in Lathuile at 14:30, that he was tired when he arrivied at Martinet, since he had then been cycling for over an hour. This could be correct since he had then (ca 15:40) been cycling for 1 hour and 10 minutes.

But where had he been? If look at a map you will find that Lathuile is situated 2 km from the sign on the Route Forestiere. He could hardly have spent 45 minutes cycling 2 km, hardly even crawling! But after 1 hour and 10 minutes we find him going in a direction away (!) from his home up towards the mountain!

That seems very strange. He has been cycling over an hour, is tired, but is on his way to start climbing up the mountains. If you look at a map there is then no easy way back to Lathuile in that direction. Where was he going? Why didn’t he go directly back to Lathuile to rest when he arrived at Route Forestiere, that would have been a 1 hour round trip. To go up and down to the lay-by seems hardly an exciting trip, and he never mentions that Martinet was his turning point.

If I, and I believe many other cyclists, was planning a cycle tour, for training or pleasure, in a trying terrain, I would certainly plan to take the heaviest part first. I would start in a direction going upwards first, when my legs are still strong, and going as much downwards as possible on the way back home.

Mr. Brett could e.g. have choosen to go over Faverges and Seythenex, climb up the mountains, coming back downwards over Combe d’Ire, past Martinet, going back to Lathuile. To me that would be a natural round trip.

Conclusion: Why was Mr. Brett going away from home after over 1 hour on the bike, being only kms from home? Or did he actually, like the killer, come from the other direction, going home…..

11-11-2012 at 10:02:23

Oops, the murderer of Pierre Marchal having been born around 1980 would of course make him around 32 today. My maths is not what it used to be 🙁

11-11-2012 at 10:18:04

@Peter : re: Pierre Marchal shooting

Instead of his killer having wanted to ‘teach him a lesson’ it could have been that it was a teenager ‘fooling around’ with one of his dad’s collectors’ items. He thought to fire into the room and then to run away, but not to hit the man sitting at the desk. However, not a shooter, he did not hit whatever he was aiming at beside Marchal, but he hit Marchal.

One of your links opens to the unsolved shooting of Marcel Desbiolles.

So many unsolved shootings? I ask myself what is going on there in this beautiful area of France? And you know the French media has not caught up on this. Maybe they should indeed read our comments on all three of our threads and get down to some research. Or to bullying EM for an explanation.

11-11-2012 at 10:20:26

@Lars : re BM’s route

I was thinking of his during the night. Whatever we know (the little that is) comes from this man’s testimony. I would love to interview him: ask the questions you all have been asking here.

11-11-2012 at 10:21:18

@Peter : re: your maths

Rest assured, my maths has never been what it ought to have been.

11-11-2012 at 10:46:10

Brett oddities II:

His house and name.

Why did he have that house in Lathuile? He and his wife created a company to let this house, but it was hardly a profitable business, rather the opposite. Somebody has already suggested that the house was actually never let. Before he took down the internet site, one could see that it contained very little information, for example no prices. Now they seem to be disassembling the business totally.

It could of course be used only as a holiday house for the Brett family. Since neither New Zealand, nor Great Britain, is well-known for their skiing population, I think it could hardly be for the skiing season. Mr. Brett’s knowledge of the french language seems also to be rather limited. So why a house up in the mountains in France? Just to go hiking and cycling during the summer, seems a rather expensive pastime?

When I have been studying the families in the area I got another idea.
Lynda and I discussed ealier why he sometimes calls himself Brett Martin, sometimes William Brett Martin and sometimes William Brett. Lynda suggested that his name originally was William Brett and that Martin was his wife’s surname. Looking at families in the area I find a lot of Martins. Martin is also a common french surname, but of course with another pronouncation.

A reason why they bought a house in Lathuile could then be that his wife Therese Martin has relatives in the area. Mr Brett could then have closer ties to the area than he has explained so far.

11-11-2012 at 10:59:21

@ Marilyn

I referenced that article dealing with Marcel Desbiolles because it mentioned a Drulov being used to kill Pierre Marchal. This is a Drulov:

As you can see, it is not a collectors’ piece, but a cheap target pistol for novice shooters (and a somewhat unlikely murder weapon). I have read that these pistols used to be categorized 7th category in France, meaning that they could be freely sold to adults upon presentation of some ID. I have not been able to establish whether that was still the case in 1995, though.

11-11-2012 at 11:06:45

Drulov II

Actually, the answer was in the very link that I just posted: The Drulov was reclassified in 1993; thus, before, 1993, it was freely sold – and one can be pretty sure that the Drulov used to kill Pierre Marchal was never registered.

11-11-2012 at 11:08:13

@Peter & Marilyn

I think that all countries that have been through a war are plagued by all these illegal weapons that keep circulating for years and years after the war has ended, Europe after WWII, Balkan countries after the Balkan wars, arabic countries now, Libya, Egypt, and so on…

Well, 32 years old is perhaps better than 42, is it not…?

11-11-2012 at 11:14:54


I haven’t posted on here before but been following this story on here, Craig Murray and David Icke with considerable interest.

Solidarité et progrès 73 is by no means a mountain community support group.

‘VENDREDI 18 JANVIER 2008, 11:00
L’association « Solidarité et Progrès » réunie le 17 janvier 2008 avec les candidats pressentis à la constitution d’une liste de gauche aux élections municipales de mars 2008 à Ugine a confirmé son intention. Une liste rassemblant des militants de gauche, communistes, socialistes, écologistes, des personnes progressistes, issues du monde syndical ou associatif représentera la gauche uginoise dans ce scrutin. Elle sera conduite par Louis Bertrand, conseiller municipal, ancien maire de 1989 à 1995. Une charte fixant le socle commun des candidates et candidats a été adoptée. Elle précise leur volonté de faire barrage à la politique antisociale du gouvernement et de traduire les enjeux nationaux au niveau local. Elle définit les grandes options en matière de développement économique et social, d’écologie, de démarches citoyenne et démocratique. Elle se donne comme priorités le logement social, un urbanisme facteur de convivialité et de renouveau commercial, le maintien des services publics, un environnement de qualité. Des groupes de travail élaborent le programme et l’ordre de la liste qui seront communiqués dès leur validation.’

If you want any more info google LaRouche.

11-11-2012 at 11:25:33

@Peter and @Lars

That Drulov looks pretty lethal to me. But even a toy gun looks lethal to me.

It’s really dreadful the way that every petty crook these days has a firearm. I can not understand this fascination with guns. Maybe military service should be brought back then all young men can play to their heart’s content with guns for two years.

Peter I collect the wrappers around sugar lumps and also pencils and pens … one can collect anything.

11-11-2012 at 11:29:05

@Mochyn69 re: Solidare et Progres

Yes, thanks, we know it is a political group. I think Manny understood it as such too.

Also thanks for commenting. We appreciate it.

11-11-2012 at 11:41:55

@ Lars

I can see a point to forming a company that owns my holiday home and not trying to hard to attract actual customers who would let this house from my company: Creating tax-deductible losses to offset profits from other activities. In order for such a ploy to work, one has to go through the motions (e. g., create a web site), but one mustn’t try too hard (e. g., by stating rental fees, contact telephone numbers, etc.).

WBM’s wife is called Theresa Valerie Martin – I may be wrong, but the first name “Theresa” sounds more british than french to me.

Regarding your points about WBM’s cycling route, however, I wholly agree. I cannot understand it, either.

11-11-2012 at 12:09:15


Yes, I also thought that it might be for tax reasons (and wrote so earlier). But it still seems a lot of problems if you are not really interested to have a house in the french Alpes.

Agreed if you spell it Theresa it looks more english than french, but it could be an anglified version of the “international” name Therese, Theres, Teresa, and so on…

I also agree that it is rather farfetched, but I only wanted to point out, that there might be other reasons why they wanted to have a house in Lathuile, than the more obvious ones.

11-11-2012 at 12:23:56

re: BM’s name

Martin is the most common surname in France. Even more so than Du Pont.

I wonder if his wife were not French which would explain the house in Lathuile. Theresa is the Anglicized version of the name as Lars said. I think that many parents here in France with the surname Martin would name a girl Therese seeing they will name her after Saint Therese of Lisieux who was born Therese Martin. (Can’t type the accents on my qwerty keyboard.)

I know English folk with country homes in France. The Brits think that property in France are cheaper than in the U.K. This was so but with the taxes which Monsieur Francois Hollande’s going to bring in, it will not be so for much longer. I myself have thought of doing the opposite: buy a pied-a-terre in London for holidays and weekends and for family and friends when they are visiting London. I therefore do not find it odd that BM and his wife Therese had a place in France.

11-11-2012 at 12:32:16

Got nothing to do with these murders, but about killing.

For this day 11 November, to stop and read this poem by John McCrae, ‘In Flanders’ Fields’, and to reflect:

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

11-11-2012 at 13:19:53

Looking at the murder of Jacky Meynet in 2011, we find *exactly* the same MO as with Pierre Marchal: shot through a window with a .22 LR whilst seated inside his home, this time sitting at the kitchen table. The only difference is that a different gun was used.

In a sense, the victims were also quite similar: well-known, successful men of similar ages, who lived in swanky houses. Given the similiarity of the MO, the similarity of the victims and the close proximity in which these crimes were committed, it is not implausible (to say the least) to assume that the same killer was responsible.

… and there may be a further similarity. After Pierre Marchal’s death Sur sa boîte aux lettres, une main a effacé son nom. (Source: Initially, I took that to mean that his family had removed his name. However, it can also be read as striking a name off a list of targets, a triumphant gesture.

After the murder of Jacky Meynet, somebody broke into his home and caused great disorder:
That need not mean anything. Unfortunately, burglars read newspapers, too, and it happens quite often that the scene of a crime is burgled shortly afterwards. Yet, it could also have been the killer doing the same thing in order to symbolically trample upon the possessions of his victim.

11-11-2012 at 13:42:32

Regarding the repeat attack on the retired policeman in 2009, the details are sketchier. On the first attempt, the shooter tried to shoot him through a window with a 12-gauge shotgun (and find that this didn’t work, the victim was only injured by broken glass flying into the room). On the second attempt a few days later, the would-be killer waited outside his house and shot him in the head.

Annoyingly, the press reports don’t state what kind of weapon was used in the second attempt. However, there is this quote: « Si on avait vraiment voulu tuer monsieur Maire, on aurait employé une arme de plus gros calibre », estime un magistrat. I would bet that this means that he was shot with a .22 LR …

11-11-2012 at 14:25:43


“Si on avait vraiment voulu tuer monsieur Maire, on aurait employé une arme de plus gros calibre”

These french policemen are hilariously funny! First someone try to shoot this man with a shotgun, and then a few days later he is shot in the head, but this “magistrat” says : “If someone really wanted to kill M. Maire……”. Ha, ha, ha 🙂 🙂

11-11-2012 at 14:36:07

Since the press seems so disinterested and the gendarmerie has its ten year plan could we perhaps hope for a new leak soon from an impatient and annoyed investigator?

11-11-2012 at 14:39:41

@ Lars regarding William Brett Martin:

If Theresa Martin was in fact English, saying she got folk in France would be a little bit like saying a “Smith” would have folk in Germany cause they’re three million “Schmidts” there.

Hell, I’m not even related to the famous Cartier jewelry empire!

I think his birth name is William Brett Martin and whenever he got wind of what fictional person was called William Martin (“Operation Mincemeat”) he started using his second Christian name instead of the first.

11-11-2012 at 14:43:48

@ Marilyn re: Remembrance day

What remembrance?


“Never mention the war!” (Basil Fawlty)

11-11-2012 at 14:46:57


Agreed, the name in itself says nothing. I tried to create link that could explain this house business in France.

I am sort of disappointed that you are not related to the famous Cartier jewelry empire. I hade hoped for some discounts. 🙂

I though think it is bit odd to sign legal papers with William Brett if your full name is William Brett Martin.

11-11-2012 at 14:49:26

@ Lars re really wanting to kill:

Yeah, pretty funny, French magistrates handing out manuals on how to really kill!

It took the killer two years to read though, not the fastest guy I’d say!

“Ten years plan” – coming from a socialist country (and living in one by some sorts) I liked that one, was pretty hilarious!

11-11-2012 at 14:51:52

@ Lars

Yes, it’s unbelievable, isn’t it? Also, a common feature the articles cited is our chèr Maillaud, stating that it was probably just a stray bullet fired by one of the many crazies out there.

Anyway, to conclude my little review, I think that the unsolved killing of Marcel Desbiolles in May 2012 is an outlier, if it is part of this series at all. He was shot in broad daylight (all the other shootings took place in the early evenings), he was shot outside his house whilst gardening, he was shot with a medium hunting rifle, and – I have to guess on this score – he was probably shot from quite a distance, as the bullet fragmented within his body.

Given that he was shot next to woodland, in this particular case, I really would not wish to rule out a stray bullet (even though the hunting season was not yet open at the time).

The question is whether, and, if so, how, these shootings have any bearing on the Chevaline murders. To my mind, the first three cases mentioned paint a picture of somebody local to the shore of Lac Leman who spends a lot of time in the evenings lurking in the gardens and peering through the illuminated windows of his fellow residents – in short, a peeping-tom character, albeit an armed and dangerous one. At this point, however, I don’t see this figure could be tied to the Chevaline murders. If the Martinet lay-by were known as a “lovers’ lane” and if the Chevaline murders had happened in the evening, then perhaps there could be a connection – but, right now, I just don’t see any.

11-11-2012 at 15:18:59

For Marilyn:

Ypern in Flandern
Mancher, der diesen Ort geseh’n
Sah nie mehr einen andern.

(Bertolt Brecht)

I do remember.


11-11-2012 at 15:21:49

@Alexander re: Basil Fawlty

This was a gentlemen’s war, Alexander, so we can mention it. Do you know that at one Christmas the British and German soldiers climbed from their trenches, shook hands and wished each other a Happy Christmas. Then they climbed back into their trenches and started firing at one another again.

11-11-2012 at 15:23:19

@Peter re: shootings

Still too many unsolved shootings for one region.

11-11-2012 at 15:33:11

Regarding: how many times must you get shot

If I could I would draw a cartoon for Le Dauphine.

Old frenchmen with his cap in his hand: M. le Magistrat I have been shot three times in me head this week !

Le magistrat: Ah, non monsieur, it is probably nothing serious, just somebody trying to make fun of you! But if you get shot in your head again, and with heavier ammo, you are welcome back and we can talk about it.

11-11-2012 at 15:59:32

Cornish version of remembrance tear-jerker quoted here a lot

‘They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.’

From Laurence Binyon’s poem For the Fallen, written in September 1914

+++ a Sunday afternoon factoid

Zirconium is an important component of modern dentistry reconstruction technology. . . used for abutments to crowns.

11-11-2012 at 16:05:51

@Lars : re:Joke

Oh Lars, You’ve made me laugh now!

I wonder who here can draw to draw that cartoon for us.

It’s terrific!

11-11-2012 at 16:06:59

@J cafe re@ remembrance tear-jerker

Someone used to recite that to me …

I am going to steal it now and put it on facebook.

11-11-2012 at 16:08:51

@ Marilyn regarding the “Christmas truce”:

Yes, it’s pretty well known in Germany.

Nevertheless I’d wished it would have been a Gentlemen’s war.

Some say it was crueler than WWII cause the casualties sometimes survived their heavy injuries.

I have seen a photo book of soldiers who survived – you better have an empty stomach before otherwise it will be after watching the pictures.

And I remember the following play of words (works in German, but you’ll understand pretty well):

Jeder Tritt – ein Brit’!
Jeder Stoss – ein Franzos!
Jeder Schuss – ein Russ’!

Unfortunately, they didn’t take it as a Gentlemen’s sport, these guys were in for the killing (plus, operating a second war in Turkey at around the same time).

11-11-2012 at 16:15:26

@Alexander : re Jeder Tritt – ein Brit’!

Great! I’ve not heard it before. Will take note of it.

11-11-2012 at 16:19:05

@ Peter re the Lac Léman killing spree:

I have just re-read everything I read yesterday and even more thanks to your brilliant links compilation.

I’d say:

2009 rifle murder attempt – not related due to small calibre of rifle used and the fact that an Ex-police chief might have had many enemies

2012 rifle murder – ricochet – not related due to small calibre of probably hunting rifle used

1995 rifle murder and 2011 rifle murder – related to each other due to .22 LR calibre one shot gun used

Nevertheless, I don’t see similarities from these two killings to Chevaline.

11-11-2012 at 16:20:22

@Alexander : re: Ypern in Flandern

Please translate it for me? Is it something about never having seen anything like it?

11-11-2012 at 17:13:17

Off now. Let’s see what happens next week.

11-11-2012 at 17:30:09

@ Marilyn re Ypern in Flandern:

Well, here you go:

It’s a Bertolt-Brecht-limerick-style rhyme of “Flanders” to “other” which rhymes in German, and the catch here is that it is not funny at all but pretty serious:

Ypers in Flanders
Some who have seen this place
Never saw an other.

During the war, due to it being hard to pronounce in English, British troops nicknamed the city “Wipers”.

The gas used by the Germans killed many, left many crazy for life, and when the wind turned, did the same to the Germans.

Fritz Haber was not only the German chemist winning the Nobel prize in the year the war ended, he was also a war criminal.

11-11-2012 at 20:38:41

Thank you for that famous poem by Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae. School children in Canada know it well, as they recite it every year at Remembrance Day ceremonies.

McCrae was no ordinary soldier:

11-12-2012 at 08:06:53

Sorry I was gone, had a medical matter I wasn’t expecting. Glad to see everyone is continuing on and the discussion is alive and well. AC, why not me too on the ammo matter? 🙂

11-12-2012 at 09:24:49

Monday, November 12, Day 317 of the year with 49 to go, or as some believe 39 days to the end of the world – 21st December.

No more talk of wars … Alexander, Like Basil Fawlty I will not mention the war.

11-12-2012 at 09:28:59

@rva524 re: your absence

Yes, I noticed you had gone, but I thought you were celebrating Halloween. I hope your medical matter has been cleared up.

We were discussing Drulovs yesterday and your gun knowledge would have come in handy. Maybe you can tell us more about it today.

11-12-2012 at 09:30:04

@Anon re: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae

Thank you for endorsing his beautiful poem. And yes, you are right, he was no ordinary soldier.

11-12-2012 at 09:33:49

@Alexander : re:Wipers

Thanks for the translation, Alexander. Fritz Haber … must admit I’ve also not heard of him, but will now find out who he was. I tend to focus only on Literature and Peace Nobel laureates.

11-12-2012 at 10:48:40
11-12-2012 at 11:11:50

That guy doesn’t sound like the average nigerian scammer: There are quite a lot of companies involved
and one of his fellow directors (with the same last name) studies at the LSE.

Anyway, how did whoever attempted this scam know that SAH banked with the Royal Bank of Scotland and HSBC?

11-12-2012 at 11:20:02


Lol, I dont even see the ‘sense’ about this. (or maybe I’m still asleep)

Why would anyone try to ‘access’ the bankaccounts of SAH?? What would be the ‘advantage’ over hacking any other bankaccount??

The only advantage I can think of is that you have the access codes in the first place

Otherwise I would try my luck with any kzillionair and avoid SAH’s bankaccount like the plague (it being under heavy surveillence, etc. etc.)

11-12-2012 at 11:23:19

@Peter re: What on earth?

When I saw the headline my first thought was ‘Nigerian scam’. Daily I receive emails along the lines of ‘Dearly Beloved’ or ‘My dear lucky beloved’ and then follows a story of how I have inherited trillions of dollars but my bank account number is needed to make the transfer.

I hope the English police are better at investigating than their French counterparts because they may be on to breaking a major internet scam network.

If you look at 8 Angus Garden, Colindale in Greater London, you will see a neat little house and small car parked outside. It is a middle-class neighbourhood. But Abiodun David John was arrested at his flat in Alban Street, Salford, which is in the Manchester area (northern England.)

If anything sounds bogus it is his company ‘First Oil and Gas Limited’ which now no longer exists.

I am sure that this man has zero to do with the Chevaline killings, but was just quick to get his hands and those of his gang on the Al-Hilli money.

Great you finding this for us. Thanks.

11-12-2012 at 11:29:55

@ Marilyn

Sorry, the link to Forozan ltd (with which the pic of the suburban house is associated) was computer-generated nonsense.

Anyway, we don’t know which accounts exactly *somebody* tried to access by telephone: Could that be a HSBC account in Geneva with nearly a million Euros in it? That would make a very tempting target for any scammer. Still, I don’t know how on earth they knew which banks to ring – and they must have known the account numbers as well.

11-12-2012 at 11:43:04

The intriguing part (if true) is the ‘timing’

Why would the hacker not attempt to break in say 6 months ago. Why did he do this AFTER SAH was killed? As Peter also says, what about the ACCOUNT NUMBER? (and with a ‘telephone’? what? is this the 90’s with modems and stuff??? lol)

Anyway, if we assume the ‘hack’ is only possible with an ‘account number’
. And the hack is after SAH was killed. Would it not be logical to perhaps assume AH was killed to get hold of his/this ‘account number’ (credentials)

11-12-2012 at 11:43:42

Well, they *are* scammers, after all: an artistic & literary production company claiming to trade in crude oil, diamonds and gold

Still, it is difficult to see how SAH could have fallen for this. A random thought: Could *they* have been the ones who fed SAH that information (as claimed by the Daily Mail) about Saddam Hussein’s £ 15 million Liechtenstein trust?

11-12-2012 at 12:05:53

They are an interesting lot.

Oluwatoyin Blessing Abiodun was not only a company director
but also at the LSE (or at least somebody of exactly the same name)

Gloria Tinuke Abiodun went from being a company director here
to being a director of her own hairdressing business

David John Abiodun left out his last name and just called himself “Mr A. David John” (as they do):

11-12-2012 at 12:10:32

@ Peter & Marilyn
If by chance this involved one of the Nigerian email scams, there is no telling what was going on. A few years ago I followed a discussion where hackers were having fun, leading on the scammers, setting up numerous appointments in London and even in Africa. It can also be dangerous, if people initially get sucked in, then try to back out and not send the “good faith” money, they find the gangs have local enforcers in all major cities who show up at their door.

There’s a specialization of the scams that preys on churches that are always short of money and think God has answered their prayers. One was willing to take a chance exchanging several emails, until they were instructed to appear at a bank in London to finalize the transaction, but they must bring ten-thousand cash to show they were legitimate and worthy of the 32,000,000 windfall.

11-12-2012 at 12:15:57

@ NR

Yes, that could be. If you want a good laugh, read here:

Often, even successful and intelligent people fall for this. A privately-run anti-fraud organization in Nigeria is run by a member of one of Germany’s leading families of industrialists, who herself got scammed out of millions.

11-12-2012 at 12:24:25

It is very likely that these people were in touch with SAH during his lifetime: David John Abiodun was already arrested on 25 September

The first press reports concerning that 1-million-bank account in Geneva appeared on 5 October.

11-12-2012 at 12:36:04

I have got to go now, but I am going to leave some food for thought: Could this apparent nigerian scam have any bearing on the claims that ZAH tried to use his father’s expired credit card *before* the Chevaline murders?

It seems an incredible coincidence that several different parties would try to get their hands on the AH’s money in such a short spate of time, whilst SAH himself is said to have tried to get his hands on Saddam Hussein’s money …

11-12-2012 at 12:46:55

Ah-ha! New life has been pumped into the case.

What is interesting here is that the police were already on to this Nigerian in September and *before* the news of the Swiss bank accounts and Saad’s father’s alleged connection with Saddam’s money had become known.

As Peter says Saad could have been in touch with this Nigerian. Although I do not give these Nigerians the intelligence or the possibility to access Iraqi inside information to have known about the Al-Hilli’s connection with Saddam’s money. They (David John etc) are just cunning petty crooks.

I see he has since September moved to London, so I wonder if he is back at the North London address. He is probably living off welfare, while he is masquerading as a company director dealing in oil, diamonds and what not.

NR, you are quite right about these Nigerian email scams. Once, I thought to reply with just one word which started with an ‘f’ and ended with the word ‘off’,but the email bounced back to me. I have a friend who lives in England who played one along for days and then sent him the ‘f’ as a cut off. We’ve had cases of people being taken for a very expensive ride by such people, so our media regularly warns us against such scams. I have also, by the way, so often won the Euromillions or the British lottery, so they have even succeeded in accessing those email addresses.

Well, the London dailies can now send their reporters to the North London neighbours to ask about Mr. David John whatever.

11-12-2012 at 12:47:08

So, are we seriously after a Nigerian ‘scammer’ who ‘followed’ the AH’s from UK to France, and who ‘preyed’ his taget for several days before somehow lure the AH’s to Martinet, forcing them to first take ‘happy family picuteres’ before following them on a motorbike taking a parallel route in a for him unknow wood … to finaly ‘ambush’ the AH’s but finding SM in his way. Killing SM first, and the AH’s second. Get out of ammo with his old Luger gun … which in itself it a highly hilarious combination. A Nigerian ‘scammer’ with an old German WW2 gun … doesn’t surprise me as this super intelligent guy makes it out of the woods … bumps into the ONF, who afterward ‘fail’ to have noticed his ‘black skin’ (helmet?? lol) and the guy disappears without a trace only to try to hack SAH’s bankaccount 2 months later on and is then captured back in the UK.

Yup, I’d go for that:P

Lol, and we say real life does not provide surprises? LOL:) No wonder EM has a hard time solving this case hahaha;) (this is ‘beyond nutter’)

11-12-2012 at 12:50:01

@M re: Breaking news:

The Luger came from the Biafran war. Spread the word.

(Now if you believe this, you will believe anything.)

11-12-2012 at 12:52:09

@ Peter
Very funny. Had a friend who wasted half his pay on web cam chats with a girl in Romania. When he was at work, some of us would go to the site, and if she wasn’t busy, she’d “chat” with us for free, ’cause she was making so much money off him. He finally wised up when she kept asking for more and more money so she could come marry him.

We are being unduly racist in assuming all Nigerians are scammers. It’s like thinking all the British nobility are corrupt.

11-12-2012 at 13:25:54

@NR re: British nobility being corrupt

NR, they are.

And believing that all Canadians sell viagra on the internet.

11-12-2012 at 15:55:12

@ Marilyn re Fritz Haber:

And you know what: he was Jewish.

@ NR:

Is it safe to say all spammers are Nigerian?

11-12-2012 at 16:10:51

New article, Le Parisien: “Ce pistolet est au cœur de l’enquête” (
Has anybody access?

11-12-2012 at 16:15:07

Les cérémonies du 11 novembre en Haute Savoie

À Chevaline : Pas de caméras, ni de flash, mais une cérémonie du 11-Novembre un peu particulière ce dimanche à Chevaline, puisque le secrétaire général de la préfecture Christophe du Payrat avait tenu à être présent, aux côtés du maire Didier Berthollet, à l’heure du recueillement devant le monuments aux morts. Un geste pour « témoigner du soutien du corps préfectoral à la commune et à ses habitants », après le drame du 5 septembre.


11-12-2012 at 16:25:42


Le Parisien

C’est une arme bien particulière qui sert de fil conducteur aux gendarmes dans leur difficile enquête sur la tuerie de Chevaline (Haute-Savoie) : un pistolet Luger. Le 5 septembre, Saad al-Hilli, ingénieur aéronautique britannique en vacances avec les siens sur les bords du lac d’Annecy, son épouse, Iqbal, dentiste de profession, et sa belle-mère, Suhaila, étaient abattus sur le parking du Martinet au débouché d’une route forestière, en même temps que Sylvain Mollier, un cycliste de passage originaire d’Ugine (Savoie), avec un pistolet automatique Luger P 06.
Une version helvétique en 7,65 mm du célèbre pistolet allemand calibré, lui, en 9 mm.
Cette arme de collection, très prisée des amateurs, est aujourd’hui « anachronique et obsolète, bien loin des références balistiques d’un tueur professionnel », indique une source proche de l’enquête.
Des morceaux brisés des plaquettes de la crosse retrouvés sur la scène de crime ont permis d’identifier cette arme. « Une copie conforme du Luger 9 mm allemand, connu pour sa précision, sa fiabilité, sa durabilité et sa simplicité de démontage », précise Clément Brunet, ouvrier à l’armurerie de la gare de Lausanne (Suisse).
Quelques centaines d’exemplaires toujours en circulation en France
Ces fameux éclats ont été transmis au très réputé laboratoire de l’armurerie de la police criminelle allemande. Objectif : tenter de savoir si ce Luger a déjà servi ou été enregistré quelque part. Chaque pièce de ce pistolet porte un seul numéro commun, permettant d’identifier l’arme.
Les éclats peuvent recéler ces précieux chiffres.
Fabriqué à partir de 1900 et jusqu’en 1929, ce pistolet a équipé les officiers de l’infanterie suisse et les gendarmes français jusqu’en 1949 avant d’être remisé.
Il en resterait environ quelques centaines en France. « Ce P 06 avait un canon un peu plus long que la série allemande pour permettre un tir d’une plus grande précision à 50 m. Mais il est surtout l’objet culte de certains collectionneurs », précise encore Bruno Clément. Les enquêteurs ont listé des collectionneurs, des armuriers et des marchands, mais ces pistes n’ont pour l’instant rien donné.
A Chevaline, le tueur a sans doute utilisé au moins 3 chargeurs, « faciles à mettre en place », selon Bruno Clément, de 8 cartouches pour exécuter ses victimes et blesser Zainab, 7 ans, l’une des deux enfants du couple rescapées de la tuerie.

Le Parisien

11-12-2012 at 17:17:10

Off I am till tomorrow.

11-12-2012 at 18:37:12

@Y, Thank you very much!

11-12-2012 at 19:04:02

… with greater shooting accuracy at 50m!

11-12-2012 at 20:13:11

Perhaps shall we start and look for someone who’s father or grandfather was gendarme during the fourties?

11-12-2012 at 20:54:37

@ Lars

That bit about the P06 (in 7.65 x 21 Para) having been issued to the french gendarmerie might be a journalistic inaccuracy. I cannot find a single source on the Internet to support that claim; all the sources that I have seen state that the P08 (in 9 x 19 Para), not the P06, was issued in France.

11-12-2012 at 21:01:09

“I still much more believe in one guy or two who’ve found Grandpa’s WW II Luger upstairs with one package of ammo left.”

11-12-2012 at 21:39:42

RE: “Weapon found in drawer/attic” theory

You would also be looking for a service (police, military or whatever) that issued three magazines with the pistol.

Presumably the police already have some idea where to look as they are reported to have found part of a weapon (grip plate?)

11-12-2012 at 21:45:09


Sometimes I hear that police has investigated a victim’s computer to see what sites he/she has visited recently. I hope nothing will happen to me, because if the police will find the sites I have been visiting, during this investigation, they will certainly start wondering.

I, for example, found this site:, with quite an “interesting” discussion. Has these extra numbers (like -24) a meaning? That little round thing at the end of the magazine, is that something that could come of, if you use the gun to hit with?

11-12-2012 at 23:20:31

@ Lars

*lol* I have been thinking along exactly the same lines recently (and assiduously cleaned the browser and other caches on my computer every day).

Anyway, those type numbers relate to the year of issue (or, rather, the year that the issue was planned for) in the Swiss Army. The first such pistol was called “Ordonnanzpistole 00”, issued 1901-1906
In 1906, a revised version called “Ordonnanzpistole 06” (or P06 for short) was issued
followed by the P06/24
and finally the 1929 model

Regarding those little round whatchamacallits for gripping and extracting the magazine
they look as if they are soldered on fairly solidly. I can only hazard a guess here, but I would assume that those are less likely to come off than the grip plates (which are each only secured by means of a single screw – the only screws on the entire gun). They are very distinctive parts as well, and would, in conjunction with the bullets and the spent cartridges found, make the identification of the pistol as certain as fragments of the grip plates would.

However, if the Chevaline killer used modern third-party magazines such as this×660/primary/222/222600.jpg
that would make identifying the precise model and vintage of pistol used much more difficult. Hence, I tend to believe the official story that P06 grip plates, or fragments thereof, were found at the scene.

11-13-2012 at 00:20:34


One of the most worrying sites I came across is:

Made me think again about it being a hitman.

11-13-2012 at 01:09:36

Nice detailed drawings of the Luger P06:

11-13-2012 at 01:16:38

Man arrested after alleged attempt to hack into bank account of father shot dead in French Alps

11-13-2012 at 08:16:31

Tuesday, 13 November – unless I am mistaken.

Today (and for a while still) I am working on an article about a man who shot 7 people dead with two Glock pistols and a .347 magnum.

11-13-2012 at 08:17:34

@Pete.R. re: worrying site

I agree with you. I just had a look but quickly went off again. That site should actually be removed. G** there are sick people in the world!

11-13-2012 at 08:20:39

@Lars, Peter and All re: Investigating computers

I would say that it is Rule No. 1 in an investigators rule book: look at the hard disk!

Well, if the coppers check us out they will see that we are just idly chatting.

11-13-2012 at 08:22:41

@bleb re: police have some idea where to look

Trouble is where they will be looking won’t be where they will find it.

11-13-2012 at 08:23:45

@Alexander Cartier re: Grandpa’s WW2 Luger

Both my grandpas were preacher men so I can plead ‘Not Guilty, Your Honour’.

11-13-2012 at 08:25:55

@Lars re gendarme in the 40s

Or in the French Resistance. In ’44 at the Liberation of Paris guns were handed freely to all those who joined the FFR which included former collaborators.

11-13-2012 at 08:33:08

@NileQueen re: man arrested hacked bank account

Thanks for drawing our attention to this.

11-13-2012 at 08:37:21

@Pete.R re: Luger P06 drawings

It’s the best site for Luger P06 info. Thank you for drawing our attention to it.

11-13-2012 at 10:06:40

Thanks Peter!

Suicide in the gendarmerie, Savoie: un gendarme se suicide avec son arme de service (

11-13-2012 at 10:51:28


See one of the comments:

I noticed that our friend has named his 06 AFV Luger “P 06-24: it would be preferable to use instead the term: Model 06/24 W + B. Only the Luger regulations of the German army are the letter P in early naming (P pistol and the year of adoption, two digits).

Searching I came across a Swiss army description of such a pistol and in the original kit with standard two magazines! The Borchardt-Luger No.6 . Was such a standard kit for the Swiss Army?

History of Borchardt-Luger and early patents

11-13-2012 at 11:32:28

Regarding: Luger 06/24

It seems to me that the grip plates and that little round/cylindrical thing on the magazine is made of wood in this version?

11-13-2012 at 11:48:34

An original magazine seems to cost something like 500 dollars! Not to speak about the whole gun.

I wonder what a collector thinks about using such a gun as a hammer!

11-13-2012 at 11:53:20

I have been thinking about that alleged nigerian scam targeting SAH and have come up with two fairly plausible scenarios, to my mind at least:

1. Mr “A. David John” is a fairly stupid scammer who got lucky by using precisely the right story on SAH: “Dear Madam or Sir, I am a private investigator based in the UK and I have recently discovered a trust fund in Liechtenstein belonging to the late Saddam Hussein that contains 20 million Euros. I need your help to access that money …” As an Iraqui who knew his way around the Swiss banking system, SAH jumped at the chance. In order to prove his good faith, SAH sent details of his bank accounts to the scammer. After the scammer heard on the news that SAH and family had been killed, he knew that no advance fees (to “bribe corrupt bank officials” etc.) would be forthcoming from SAH, that his scam had failed. Stupidly, he therefore decided to impersonate SAH and help himself to some of SAH’s money.

2. That moroccan (?) carer / housekeeper / companion whom Kadhim AH had in Spain was unhappy about being fired by his sons. Before she left, she took both his bank account details (as a Parkinson sufferer, Kadhim AH would need to have kept those written down somewhere) and his credit card with him. The info also included details of SAH’s bank accounts, because SAH had transferred money to his father. Later, she sold that information and the credit card on to some crooks, and it ultimately ended up in the hands of Mr “A. David John”. The latter first tried to use the expired credit card (without success) and then attempted to access the accounts via phone and email.

The trouble with scenario 2 – which I like, because it accounts for the attempt to use the expired CC, something that ZAH has has vigorously denied and which I don’t see an accountant like him being daft enough to try – is that it fails to explain that story about SAH being fed instructions how to access Saddam’s 20-million Liechtenstein trust fund. What do you think?

11-13-2012 at 11:54:46

If the killer’s weapon was in good condition and he had three original magazines he was actually carrying a small fortune around. A fortune that I guess is now pretty hard to sell for any reasonable price.

11-13-2012 at 12:15:01

@ Lars

Depending on the precise model and on its condition (good working order vs. pristine), that gun was worth something between € 1500 and € 3500, as a rough guide.

Selling it would be very risky for the killer. Repairing it would also be risky: Unless the police are totally dim – which they may be, unfortunately – they are going to keep a very close eye on any sales of replacement grip plates in the near future. Conversely, *not repairing* it might also be risky for the killer, as fellow gun nuts might notice that this fine specimen was missing from his collection.

11-13-2012 at 12:42:08

A brief digression on gun collectors. There are many secret or semi-secret gun collectors out there. Two examples from Germany:

1. In 2010, an opthalmologist was shot 40 times with a WWII Sten submachine gun that he was trying to sell to an unknown buyer. It later turned out that this well-respected doctor had a secret hobby, illegally buying and selling submachine guns, including selling AK47 to dodgy Albanians. Incredibly, he himself regularly bought those submachine guns from a left-wing politician.

2. Recently, 700 weapons were found in the possession of a pervert gynaecologist, including a custom-made shortened Uzi submachine gun produced for the Mossad. That dude owned 259 of his 700 guns legally.

11-13-2012 at 12:56:04


Yes, these collectors are a strange lot! Whether they collect stamps, weapons or “intime Fotos der Patientinnen”.

11-13-2012 at 12:59:30


Do you think that the killer was aware that his gun and its spare parts was worth that much money?

11-13-2012 at 13:08:30

@ Lars

I would say with almost absolute certainty that the killer was very well aware of how valuable his gun was: He must have purchased at least one spare magazine for it (AFAIK, the Swiss Army issued those guns with two magazines, not three), and he must have sourced the right ammunition for it. Moreover, he is a practiced shooter.

I really do not see him as some kind of drooling idiot with an IQ of 42 who merely happened to *find* this kit (gun + spare magazines + ammo) in some attic.

11-13-2012 at 13:47:31

Why did Killer X not ‘collect’ the broken pieces of the Luger? (remember that Zainab was prolly his last victim, beaten to near death)

A. He was not aware
B. He did not care
C. He was in a hurry (this prolly rules out motorbiker as Killer X)

11-13-2012 at 13:50:11


I can agree to that, but to use it to hit somebody with, and if he dropped it and lost a piece of it ? Would he not take more care? Or was he so emotionally upset that he didn’t care?

11-13-2012 at 13:51:47

InfO: I and M wrote our comments simultaneously 🙂

11-13-2012 at 15:08:06

If you’ve just killed four people will you be bothered to pick up the pieces?

11-13-2012 at 15:27:17

Now it’s Luger Business worldwide!

I’m sure there’s enough on this on the internet in English, too.

The short version:

John McAfee of McAfee Anti-Virus fame is searched for murder.

His Belize, Middle-America, neighbour had been shot in the head.

Commited with a 9-mm…you name it, Luger.

As for my Luger studies on this blog, I’d say, Pistole 08?

11-13-2012 at 15:50:47

@ Lars, M

What I find even more astonishing than the killer using this collectors’ piece as a club and not bothering to pick up the broken pieces afterwards is that – if “sources close to the enquiry” can be believed – no DNA was found on those pieces.

Look at the serrated wood of these grips. Even touching a smooth metal doorknob leaves enough minute skin flakes on the surface for DNA to be lifted off the doorknob. In other words, not only did the killer wear gloves *this time*, he must have used bleach or some other substance to remove the DNA of every single person who ever touched that gun in its +/- 90-year-history.

11-13-2012 at 15:52:59


If you left no traces EXCEPT for a (in principle) traceable Luger then that is significant.

If you are prepared to kill 3 witnesses (assuming SM was only target) but ‘forget’ to clean up, that is weird.

Are those found parts of the pistol grip? If so, they probably dont have fingerprints … which makes the killer wearing gloves. Motorbike gloves? Wouldn’t these be to big to handle a gun? (asking the experts here:))

11-13-2012 at 16:00:38

Warning : I was reading Alexander Cartier’s comment about McAfee, and googling it, my computer screen went black and I received notification that Windows has detected a problem and is shutting down. I would say that some bizarre mind is making use of the opportunity to virus our pc’s when you read up on McAfee being wanted by the police for the murder of his neighbour. So be careful.

11-13-2012 at 16:08:15

@M : re: gloves

Some tasks are impossible to perform even when wearing just ordinary ‘winter’ gloves. Have you tried to tap out an sms wearing gloves? Or type, wearing gloves. The only thing for which one absolutely has to wear gloves is for opening oysters. So your question to our gun experts about handling a gun with motorbike gloves, is a good one.

11-13-2012 at 16:11:53

@ M

Leaving those pieces of the grip plates in situ gave away no additional information to the police. The police would have worked out what kind of gun the killer used from the bullets and spent casings alone. In that sense, there was no point in picking up the pieces (in addition, see my above point about no DNA being found – the killer prepared for all eventualities).

Heavy motorcycle gloves for racing or for winter use would be a poor choice for shooting, as they are too thick and make changing magazines fumbly work. Yet, many SWAT teams etc. routinely wear gloves for shooting. Thus, wearing regular touring or MX gloves should not have been a problem.

11-13-2012 at 16:16:05

@Peter : re: gloves

Thanks Peter you’ve solved the gloves query.

11-13-2012 at 17:10:57

For once I would have to disagree (although only slightly) with Peter. Shooting gloves are very tight fitting and quite different from biking gloves. Although I am not a motor biker, as I understand it the gloves are designed to prevent calluses? For shooting, the shooter needs to be able to feel the trigger to properly operate the gun. And that’s only if its absolutely necessary to use gloves. In non-law enforcement uses, the only time I can imagine using gloves is for hunting when it is so miserably cold that it would be dangerous to have bare hands exposed.

11-13-2012 at 17:14:20

I have been reading the coments (most of them any way!) since the start. A few things have occurred to me recently.
– How seriously injured was Zeinab? We were told that she was at death’s door with a fractured skull and that she could potentially be blinded in one eye and yet she left hospital within a week and has been placed with foster parents.

– This is a very popular area for walkers, plus from what I have read, it is a heavily militarised area too. There are lots of barracks and regimental headquarters in the area, plus it is close to the border. There are therefore many people who would have been familiar with the forest trackways.

– If an assignation had been arranged, and presuming it was not between Mollier and al-Hilli, then it must have been something to do with al-Hilli, because Mollier that was not reportedly Mollier’s usual route.

– Zeinab described a man as shouting and firing his gun at them. This sounds to me as if someone stepped out of the wood and there were no preliminary discussions.

I hope I live long enough to see the solution to this mystery, but it’s going to take a long time to all come out. Although I don’t think teh al Hillis were particularly political, they appeared to have very high-up connections.

11-13-2012 at 17:18:37

@Peter (and because there is no other things to talk about:)

I’m not totally convicend by your explanation.

A SWAT team memeber is trained on using guns wearing gloves. But was the Killer X also trained in this????

Muzing further.

I dont know how much of the ‘grip’ was found, but suppose it was a large piece (enough for fingerprint). But as you said, it probably contained no useful info for the police –> That means that the grip was clean of traces already. And that must mean the killer was wearing gloves!

(because if he didn’t wear gloves and held the gun bear handed the grip should show some traces)

Now, Peter, you say the Killer X came ‘prepared’ and you are right, he DID come prepared and did wear gloves during the shooting

Of course, above are assumptions, but not unrealistic assumptions. Killer X wearing gloves DURING the shooting is a significant detail as it points to somebody with experience of wearing gloves when firing a gun!

– M

11-13-2012 at 17:44:35

Regarding: guns and fingerprints

Even though I can accept Peter’s argument concerning, pieces from the gun and DNA, must it not then have been a very self-confident killer?

Nowadays when you can not leave a single hair on a crime scene without the police identifying your DNA. How can you be so sure that you haven’t left a single trace on your gun? Mustn’t the killer have some extraordinary knowledge of police procedure to be so sure that he could fool them? Or would he not have picked up as much as possible from the crime scene?

11-13-2012 at 17:51:48

@ rva524, M

I agree that motorcycle gloves would not be the perfect choice for shooting – I merely pointed out that it is quite possible to shoot with some types of bike gloves. I own both types of gloves, heavy racing gloves with metal-foil lining on the palms that barely allow me to bunch a fist and thin MX gloves that would actually be pretty good for shooting, as all the padding is on the back of the hands.

In a posting that got swallowed by the Gremlins on this site, I mentioned that, when I started shooting as a boy, I used to wear my mother’s kid gloves, because I wanted to be just like the bad guys on TV. These days, I know some counter-terrorist good guys who will only ever shoot wearing thin kangaroo-leather gloves, because they have become so used to wearing gloves whilst shooting and because it makes for a particularly firm, dry grip.

All that is moot, however, because I am absolutely convinced that the Chevaline murders were not a spontaneous outburst of violence, but a carefully planned assassination. Thus, the killer must have worn whatever kind of gloves worked for him – anything from surgical gloves or washing-up gloves trough to (thin) motorcycle gloves. (By the way, I don’t think that one would need special training to shoot wearing, say, washing-up gloves.)

As to why I am convinced that this was a preplanned assassination, I can only reiterate my point about the serrated wood on the grips. That sort of surface is unlikely to capture usable fingerprints, but it is like a purpose-built DNA collecting device. If the police really found no DNA – it needn’t be the killer’s, just the DNA of someone who held that gun at some point during the last ca. 90 years – inside the grooves on that grip plate, that means that the killer must have used some caustic agent to destroy all traces of DNA on the gun. Now *that* is what I call careful planning …

11-13-2012 at 17:55:15

The idea of ‘3 clips being a std loadout of gendarme’ or something like this as brought up by some of you some time ago is still in the back of my head.

The ‘3 clips out of habit’ + the seemingly ‘prepared for all’ (no traces on ‘grip’) + ‘good handling’ of the luger + possibly the ‘glove’ thing … is drawing an outline here.

Are we looking at an (ex)police/military type here?

11-13-2012 at 18:10:39


I am beginning to think that he must at least have some sort of training, or familiarity, with these areas (police/military).

11-13-2012 at 18:14:47

@Sue R.

As with so many things in this investigation we don’t know how seriously injured the girl really was.

Well, it wasn’t al-Hilli’s usual route either, so it is difficult to draw any conclusion from that.

11-13-2012 at 18:34:50

@ Peter:

“Leaving those pieces of the grip plates in situ gave away no additional information to the police.” (Peter)

“The shattered pieces of the grip plates found on the crime scene allowed to identify this weapon.” (Le Parisien)

11-13-2012 at 18:54:19

If the killer was dumb enough to let the grip plate pieces on the crime scene, he is not smart enough to treat the gun with some kind of chemical agent beforehand.

The fact that French gendarmerie did not find any fingerprints on the scattered grip plate pieces means French gendarmerie was not able to find them.

As for fingerprints on the whole crime scene itself: either the killer was wearing gloves or the Gendarmerie just did not find anything.

Wouldn’t the gun (contrary to a, let’s say, Drulov) not point to a killer being very old as in “it was not only grandpa’s gun, it was grandpa himself”?

11-13-2012 at 18:58:02

@ Alexander Cartier

I am not a ballistics expert, but I should think that the unusual calibre (narrowing down the range of handguns that could have been used) + the marks that the gun left upon the bullets and the casings would have sufficed for the police to have identified the type of gun used with a high degree of certainty.

The grip plate fragments would have been a welcome bonus, speeding up and facilitating the identification of the type of gun used, but not strictly essential. However, journalists have to tell a story, and a story of how a few bits of wood found at the scene of a crime were being made “to tell their story” probably makes for more entertaining reading than mumblings about lands and grooves, extractor marks, ejector marks, firing pin impressions etc. etc.

11-13-2012 at 18:58:14

I just heard on the radio that one of the FBI investigators in the Petraeus case, mentioned here earlier, has been fired after sending pictures of himself bare breasted to one of the women involved.

So take head all investigators!

11-13-2012 at 18:59:24

@ Max re:

“…it points to somebody with experience of wearing gloves when firing a gun!”

No, I don’t think so.

It just points to somebody with experience of firing a gun.

When I wear my silk motorbike undergloves without the “real” gloves I am able to do as much as everything that I am able to do without gloves.

Same goes for medical rubber gloves as I can testify first hand from my dentist.

11-13-2012 at 19:02:22

Missing edit button:

So take heed all investigators!

11-13-2012 at 19:07:22

@ Peter re: identifying the Luger P06 *without* having found the grip plate pieces:

You know that I am not at all a weapons expert.

I just read what rva524 once wrote so I am quoting him here:

“Of course the firearm is not in possession of law enforcement so it is much more difficult, albeit not impossible, to do make an educated guess as to the weapon which fired it.”

11-13-2012 at 19:21:21

“…this look like a spontaneous crime committed by a local.” (Peter)

“…I am convinced that this was a preplanned assassination.” (Peter)

So you did change your mind over the course of that blog, didn’t you?

And just to add: there’s no prob in doing so, I just wanted to be on the same page with you on the fact.

11-13-2012 at 19:33:34


But c’mon, Alexander, you can do better:P

You talk about ‘silk motorbike undergloves’ … that is very ok. But …

… WHY would killer X wear these ‘silk motorbike undergloves’ in the first place? Do you see the problem now?

IF his intention was to only kill by gun SM (and AH’s who knows) and just take the gun with him afterwards … WHY all these ‘precautions’ of gloves??

You wear ‘gloves’ if you want to touch something, a burgler, who is stealing diamonds from an safe (which he has to touch)

But if you are not intending to touch anything, WHY wearing gloves?

In comes the Peter ‘idea’ of being ultra ‘prepared for anything’ … or maybe a ‘good habit’ or whatever.

To us, laymen, wearing gloves seems ‘overkill’ (sic;)

Anyway, all assumptions from my side (as I do not know how big these ‘fragments’ of the luger were), but I do not take these little details lightly … It could ‘paint’ the Killer X. Because finding fingerprints is a clue, but finding NO fingerprints is also a clue:)

11-13-2012 at 19:37:07

… ahhh, and before anyone goes ‘But Max, wearing silk motorbike undergloves is normal’ … I should mention that it is only normal for a ‘motorbike’ Killer X (and we all know there was a motorbike;)

So ‘silk motorbike undergloves’ points almost directly to the motorbiker being the killer X

11-13-2012 at 19:51:43

Just another idea, going further along the ‘ultra preparedness’ idea.

IF killer X really did wear gloves. Could it be he was prepared to counter that ‘gunpowder test’ thingy … so no gunpowder residue on his hand and dumping gloves (and who knows clothes) so that no traces are found on the body in case of examination?

For the experts … would this ‘gunpowder residu’ test also look at the clothes of a suspect (like his coat, trouwsers, etc)? because IF SO, this ‘ultra prepared’ Killer X might have dumped his clothes too, perhaps with the gun … who knows

11-13-2012 at 19:51:55

@ Alexander Cartier

Sure, I must have changed my mind about all this at least thirty times by now. (Actually, last night, I even dreamt about this. I dreamt about Eric Maillaud, wearing a flak jacket and a ceramic helmet, dashing to his office, taking cover behind parked cars, trying to dodge the bullets that random nutters were firing in his direction.)

As other people have already remarked, any reputable publisher would reject the manuscript of the “Chevaline killings” outright, for containing too many implausible coincidences and too many implausible characters. That alleged nigerian scammer merely is the latest one in a long list of implausible characters dragged into this story by the scruff of their necks.

As of now, I still have (or at least try to have) a totally open mind on all this, working along the lines of Adenauer’s dictum: “Was interessiert mich mein Geschwätz von gestern?”

11-13-2012 at 19:57:58

Yes, why wear gloves? As usual all “facts” are not so easy to fit together.

One reason, as Peter suggested earlier, could be to protect oneself from gun powder residues (calculating that you might be stopped by the police on your way home).

The gloves-DNA argument I see more as an argument why not any DNA was found. I find it harder to believe that the killer thought that he could fool the police that way.

If he also did smash the windows of the car, there must also have been a huge risk that he would leave traces of DNA behind, with or without gloves. Or he must have cleaned himself and his clothes meticulously before the crime.

I actually find it hard to believe that the killer’s DNA wasn’t at the crime scene, considering the chaos at the scene.

11-13-2012 at 20:40:12

Ok, another thought

The casings …

(being no expert myself)

If you put the bullets in the clip with bear hands. Wouold the casings still hold you fingerprints?

Because there were 25 casings found, and no mention was made of fingerprints


1. There actually were fingerprints but EM doesn’t tell us that
2. There were NO fingerprints

Now, if we analyse option 2 we would have a ‘strange’ situation if we assume killer X just ‘borrowed’ the Luger from, say, his grandpa (because the fingerprints of grandpa would be on the bullets)

Option 2 would point to the fact that Killer X himself took care of ‘filling’ the clips (with gloves on that is) … which is in line with the ‘ultra prepared’ idea.

As said, also NO fingerprints, etc … is a clue (a clue of the killing(s) being ‘well prepared’)

11-13-2012 at 20:46:49

I think that the one big error the gendarmerie did directly after the killings was to open the crime scene for journalists and others after only 48 hour.

They should have “vacuum-cleaned” every inch of the crime scene. I am pretty sure they would then have found traces of DNA from the killer, from fibres, or hairs etc. considering the tumult at the crime scene, and probably a lot of other information.

11-13-2012 at 20:50:01

@ Lars:

That’s what I’m saying, some DNA was there, the gendarmerie has just not found it.

@ Max:

I’ve been discussing that over hours off-line and came to the conclusion that the trigger-happy gun-totin’ local nut that I imagine to be the killer wore glove as a mean of some precaution although he could not *exactly” know what was going to happen.

He just wanted to make sure that if something was going to happen he would not leave his fingerprints on the gun, the shells, the magazine etc.pp.

And yes, he already loaded the magazines and the gun with his gloves on.

@ Peter:

Open mind is around the contrary to what Adenauer wanted to say.

In fact, it speaks of a certain ignorance to what one has said yesterday.

11-13-2012 at 20:55:14

I know where the DNA is:)

11-13-2012 at 22:07:35

Before I go go (I do really turn into a serial killer at nightfall) I will throw a spanner into this interesting discussion about gloves and no DNA.

We do not know that the killer wore gloves. No one has told us that he did. And would we really be told that the killer’s DNA is known and being compared to DNA not only here in France but globally?

Tomorrow is another day …

11-13-2012 at 22:15:52


where is the DNA?

On the remains of the baguette?

11-13-2012 at 22:20:20

I should have fav’d the video.

Anyway, here is the answer @ 0:15 in this video (watch the last vehicle)

(lol, there is another vid where you can see it better … at the time I saw this … little detail … I had to smile. I wanted to share but at that time didn’t)

11-13-2012 at 22:46:17

I sometimes have a feeling of the clash of the cultures when I follow this case. And I then do not mean a clash between an islamic and a christian culture but rather a clash between a culture in northern Europe and a culture in central/southern (?) Europe.

I am, as I have said a number of times, used to that the police reveals as much as possible concerning a crime, keeping just small details for themselves. The same goes for the persons involved, witnesses, relatives and victims (if possible).

In France the rule is obviously quite the opposite, everybody keeps quiet, and hopes that the police/gendarmerie by some miracle shall be able to solve the crime all by itself.

It is actually a bit of a paradox. Usually we living in northern Europe are the ones that are said to trust our authorities, while the ones living in southern Europe don’t. When it comes to solving crimes it seems to be the other way around.

I also think it is interesting to note that the only person, from the families involved, that have complained about the efficiency of the gendarmerie is the uncle of the british-iraqi family. The rest are just keeping quiet.

Sometimes I feel that this whole murder case and its official investigation is so absurd that I expect that Eric Maillaud will come forward and say that there were no killings, it was just a theatre play. A sort of live performance to let everbody take part and play detectives. Now he will distribute the prizes to those who have found the most clues, and first prize goes to the person who understood that the killer was…..

11-13-2012 at 23:49:15

re: Where did the DNA go?


actually, I watched it 3-4 times ’til I got the joke – but it was really funny!

Thank you very much,


P.S. Maybe the killer’s has gone there as well – there’s always the “The dead scuba diver in tree” possibilty to consider:)

11-14-2012 at 00:37:37

@Alexander. Lol, you’re welcome:)

Still looking for the dna cleaner vid

found another video. For Lars (special), the ‘behind barrier’ view

I think at 0:30 you get a glimpse of how Martinet looks like when you come from the Col de Cheral side. I’m not 100% sure, but if it IS the place where Killer X was coming from it IS possible he has indeed ‘overlooked’ the AH’s and their BMW <== 🙂

In the scenario where Killer X on a motorbike took the parallel route to make it before SM to Martinet (coming from the other side) it can make sense

11-14-2012 at 07:46:59

Did the gun break when he hit that poor child?
He might not retrieve the pieces if there was blood on them, or if he feared someone was approaching and he would be discovered (he was out of bullets). Also, if he is going to dispose of the gun, why would he collect the pieces?

Sue R wrote: – Zeinab described a man as shouting and firing his gun at them. This sounds to me as if someone stepped out of the wood and there were no preliminary discussions.

Shouting at SM? And did SAH’s sudden dash for the car trigger a reflex reaction in the killer?

11-14-2012 at 08:47:30

@NileQueen : re: when did the gun break

There has been no word from the authorities about when the gun broke. We, here, presumed it was when he hit the little girl.

We do not think that killing Saad Al-Hilli, his wife and his mother-in-law was a reflex reaction. It was deliberate. Maybe it was not premeditated but it was not an action of reflex.

11-14-2012 at 09:16:34

The Sue R ‘shouting’ reference is new to me. Is there a sourcelink? I would like to check it.

11-14-2012 at 09:20:11

Re: DNA (This is exclusive.)

Those of us who are sceptic about French police methods and investigating, should sit back and think about this. Well, the gendarmes even collected 10 kilos of cow pat from the immediate vicinity of the lay-by. The stuff’s now being analysed in a police laboratory in Paris. So too the several dozen dung beetles and other creepy crawlies (like flies and mosquitoes) which were on or in the dung.

Yes, police work’s not always pleasant.

11-14-2012 at 09:34:22

@M & Sue R.

I am afraid that the shouting part may be an invention from certain member(s) of this forum 🙂

11-14-2012 at 09:35:12

Whether X leaves his gun at the scene or takes it with him is open to debate. Leave the gun at the scene and if you are stopped then you are not immediately implicated. Take the gun with you and you are stopped then you are caught. Leaving the gun at the scene would certainly have made BM a prime suspect. X has thought this through and chanced leaving the scene with the gun to dispose of later (or it might still be in the bushes up there). He also thought to load the gun leaving no prints on the bullets. He has also thought to load the gun with 9 bullets, and take 2 spare clips. He was therefore preparing to use all 25 bullets if need be. The act of loading the gun with 9 bullets seems odd to me and tricky. It also means he wasn’t out for shooting practice or shooting rabbits. So this makes him a possible contract killer, high preparation, planning etc. Other things to my mind outweigh him being a contact killer. No contract killer would take this job and the random nature that the victims arrived. So I am thinking of a maniac acting out a fantasy world of being a hit man.

If it was me and I new the gun was clean and not traceable to me then I would have throw it in the river. So X believes the gun can be linked to him (if it’s not in the river).

11-14-2012 at 09:36:56


Thank you for this exclusive !

I wonder if they are going to make the beetles talk, or if they also will keep quiet? 🙂

11-14-2012 at 09:39:44

@Lars : re:shouting.

Come on, Lars!! Maybe it was just a matter of speech.

11-14-2012 at 09:43:06

@Lars : re: beetles talking

No, Lars, they just sing.

Problem is they keep on singing –

Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they’re here to stay
Oh, I believe in yesterday
Suddenly I’m not half the beetle I used to be
There’s a shadow hanging over me
Oh, yesterday came suddenly

11-14-2012 at 09:57:32


Thank you for the video!

I have actually looked at that video several times, and have snapshots from it on my computer. But I have obviously partly misunderstood what that film is actually showing.

The photographers often use lenses that compress the view, so that things that actually lie 50 m apart, seems to lie very close together. Because the video is also cut it is not always easy to understand from which point and angle each “scene” is being shot. For example you can’t see the “barrier” in that video which otherwise could have made it easier. I will look again at photos and videos and try to piece it together.

I however think that you are probably right, the picture after 30 s probably shows the lay-by from the “barrier”. In that case it is clear that the killer could not see the car or the people standing by the car before he arrived at the lay-by. I think that you can see only a corner of the sign that stands at that end of the lay-by.

11-14-2012 at 10:01:19

@Marilyn, Re: Yesterday

May be an idea for Alexander’s music track ?

11-14-2012 at 10:17:57

@Lars & M

Don’t forget that SM was shot standing next to SAH (blood splatters on pants). Both SAH & ZH were out of the car when the killer appeared. I don’t go with the killer not knowing that the BMW was there. I go with the scenario that whoever turned up was going to get shot. Killer had 25 bullets available and intended to use them all. Shame he didn’t keep one for himself.

11-14-2012 at 10:22:57

The little daughter, Zeena, described the moment of attack as involving shouting.

It is not clear though whether that refers to her own family screaming in panic or to the killer shouting. Perhaps it was both: Shouting whilst attacking at close quarters is almost the default mode for humans. Soldiers do it, martial artists do it, Breivik did it …

11-14-2012 at 10:40:37
11-14-2012 at 10:50:00


Re 10 kilos of cow dung

I can read “police work is shit” two ways!

So now they have some ‘expert’ advice that they have missed important DNA. One drop of blood, a hair, part of a fingerprint, an old glove, etc. That is all it is going to take as I am sure this person is known to the police. This can’t be the first crime he has committed.

Now here is a thought, if a mosquito bites me then bites you, can my DNA be transferred to you?

11-14-2012 at 10:54:54

@ Lars re soundtrack:

“Yesterday” being not heavy enough.

11-14-2012 at 11:02:28

@Pete R.

Yes, the ‘blood spatters’ is tricky

On the other hand. The ‘nutter’ scenario is not without problems!

We know that AH’s were already there (AH and Zainab out of the car), yet the shooting started with Killer X shooting at SM (who probaly arrived later)

WHY did killer X wait with opening fire? Why not come forward immediately when the AH’s arrived, kill AH behind his wheel, and kill all inside … WHY let AH and Zainab out?

You might argue that Killer X waited on purpose, because it would make things easier if AH was outside … but the facts are different. AH nearly escaped (weren’t it fot the fact that his BMW got stuuck)

If I were to massacre innocent ppl, I would gently walk up to the arriving car, pretending I was a tourist. Suddenly take out my gun, kill AH behind the wheel and have all others caught in a trap!

But no, Killer X somehow waited.

This can be explained by SM and AH arriving at the same time … which IS a possibility (SM would have to climb fast … or AH drive very slowly)

I am still fond of the motorbiker as killer X scenario with X after SM (following SM) and going to Martinet by the parallel route … as this explains neatly why X came from ‘behind the barrier’ and why SM was shot first (because X knew SM would arrive any minute) … but true, the ‘blood spatters’ need to be fit in too

11-14-2012 at 11:16:38

re: cow dung
I think that the police are merely trying to find out whose cows left those cow pats, using DNA analysis. (Believe it or not, the city of Jerusalem has recently initiated a scheme in which dog turds left in parks etc. will be analysed for DNA, with the DNA found then matched against a comprehensive DNA database of all 11,000 dogs registered in Jerusalem). The insects are going to tell them approximately when those cow pats were left.

re: blood spatters
I don’t think that the fact (if it be a fact) that spatters of SM’s blood were found on SAH’s trouser legs implies that they were standing next to each other when SM was shot. It could merely be a case of SAH stepping into SM’s blood as he ran back towards the BMW.

11-14-2012 at 11:42:07

@M. – location barrier

Hommage discret des habitants aux victimes de Chevaline– interviews plus view of barrier within 5m of sign south end of Martinet parking

Nos images de la scène de crime à Chevaline– view up and down the road from parking Martinet, sound of running water stream d’Ire. Clear view of road 80-100m towards Chevaline and 40-50m looking south towards hairpin-turn.

Programme Présumé Innocent Chevaline Les mystères d’une tuerie (total 30 min.) – view 7:17 and 12:55 scene barrier at sign info Parc de Bauges, plus interview Éric Maillaud.

11-14-2012 at 11:43:05


Police forensics will know, as there is a difference between blood splatters from a gunshot and blood picked up from contact. I think the leaked report, for what it is worth, worded it as blood splatters. There was also mud (not blood) on SAH’s shoes.

They wouldn’t need 10 kilos of cow dung to find out who owns the cows! Just watch the video, they pass by everyday.

11-14-2012 at 11:56:05

@ Pete.R.

10 kilos of cow dung sounds a bit excessive – why do they need so much, and why do they bother, if the cows pass by every day?

Anyway, try this hypothesis for size: The reason why the AHs pulled into that lay-by was to let a herd of cows pass. SAH and daughter used that enforced wait to get out of the car and look at the map. At the same time, SM was cycling uphill, as fast as he could. He was unhappy at being delayed by the herd, became angry with the farmer herding the cows and exchanged a few choice words. Said farmer – perhaps because someone had been shooting his cows recently – happened to be armed to the teeth and in a bad mood. He shot SM first and then eliminated the AHs as witnesses …

I know that it sounds silly, but then the other hypotheses do not make much sense, either.

11-14-2012 at 11:58:40


I like the idea that X took the parallel route. But if that is correct then the target could also have been SAH and family, SM or even BM (especially if SM and BM wore the same cycling shirt). I am still not convinced though and local lunatic is still number one for me.

Maybe it took time for X to get from his hiding place overlooking the road
to the car park. SAH and SM arriving more or less together is my belief.

11-14-2012 at 12:25:03

If you are about to have lunch don’t read this until after.

Yes, from the mosquitoes etc on the cow pat the forensics guys will know how old the dung is and so on. Like they can tell from diptera on a dead body how long that person has been dead etc.

I asked my informer about the quantity of dung and it was pointed out to me that a pat is heavy and can easily weigh a kilo. Therefore 10 kilos of pat would be just about 10 pats.

Have you guys thought of this? If the cow can be identified through the pat, then the farmer can be identified through the cow. Therefore if a farmer had claimed that he did not have his cows out in that region on the day of the shooting, it would show he was lying. Or is this too Clouseau?

11-14-2012 at 12:39:26

@ Marilyn

If the cow can be identified through the pat, then the farmer can be identified through the cow.

I didn’t for one moment assume that the police wanted to question the cow 🙂

11-14-2012 at 12:46:45

@ Pete.R. regarding a mosquito passing the DNA:

I think it could work. See “Jurassic Parc” by Steven Spielberg.

11-14-2012 at 12:59:12

Initially, I wondered how the police were going to find the cow that left the cow pat (and thus its DNA) at the scene. I assumed that they would have to take blood samples from the x thousand cows in the region in order to find a match.

However, that is not so. Each and every cow carries a unique ID number in its ear, and the accompanying paperwork states the biological parentage. DNA testing on cows is totally routine. Thus, it should be quite simple to identify the cow in question – and its owner.

11-14-2012 at 13:00:38

@Peter : re: questioning the cow

If cows could speak … maybe this case would have been solved a long time ago.

@Peter R and @Alexander Cartier re: Mosquitoes and DNA

Maybe collecting the cow pat was then not such a crazy idea after all.

11-14-2012 at 13:56:49


Thank you very much for these three links, it made my work unnecessary!
I think these three links are very valuable for anyone who wants to see the environment around the crime scene.

I think it can now also be established as a fact that you have to almost stand on the road beside the lay-by to see the car, if you arrive in the direction from the mountains. The view is even more limited than I initially thought.

11-14-2012 at 13:57:08

A question for the cow experts: Would a herd of cows not take fright and, er, stampede if somebody fired 25 shots in the vicinity?

11-14-2012 at 14:06:10
11-14-2012 at 14:28:39

@Lars : re cows

Lars, I wouldn’t put murder beyond the cow in the middle, the one who is avoiding the camera.

11-14-2012 at 14:30:35

@Alexander, regarding Yesterday on the soundtrack:

Perhaps you could make a rap-version of it? 🙂

11-14-2012 at 14:32:02

@ Lars

Indeed. Abondance cows, the infamous thugs of the bovine world
all bitter and twisted, because they have been dehorned
(which suggests that they are kept in a pen)

However, as a city boy, I am really not sure how cows would react to sustained gunfire nearby. I presume that they would panic and run away – which would tend to suggest that their owner has nothing to do with the Chevaline murders.

11-14-2012 at 14:37:07


Never trust a cow is my motto.

You never know what a cow will do, just continue to ruminate looking totally uninterested, or run you down.

11-14-2012 at 14:37:33

@Peter : re: dehorning

They should be grateful they are not geese because if so they will be forced fed so that the French can eat their diseased livers.

11-14-2012 at 14:38:40

@Oui re: your links

Thanks for these Oui. I watched the last on the night it was shown on French TV.

11-14-2012 at 15:31:52

David John appears in court on fraud charges related to Al Hilli’s bank account.

11-14-2012 at 15:42:58

I agree with an older post of Marilyn’s-“We do not know that the killer wore gloves. No one has told us that he did. And would we really be told that the killer’s DNA is known and being compared to DNA not only here in France but globally?”

It would be difficult but not impossible to get biological remnants from some of the physical evidence. Further, contact DNA is not very reliable other than to rule out/in known individuals. Fingerprints are also difficult to retrieve from non-smooth surfaces (like textured gun grips), but more easily obtained from things like polished wood (wooden gun grips). All in all, it would not be a shock if there was no DNA or fingerprint from SOME of the evidence, but for there to be none at all on any of the evidence really does eliminate, in my mind, most of the “nutter” possibilities. Therefore, my conclusion is that the police are witholding evidence while they narrow down the suspects (DNA is only good for a specific suspect if compared against a known sample) and I have seen cases where police surreptitiously collect evidence such as cigarette butts, drinking glasses, etc. to compare against a sample from a crime; OR that we are dealing with an individual who has extremely good knowledge of forensics, firearms, DNA, and, of course, had a pretty compelling motive to carry out such high risk murders.

11-14-2012 at 15:45:42


I don’t think I have heard of this kind of scams before. It is not the usual “nigerian letters”. The guy is an innovator.

11-14-2012 at 16:03:42

hi everybody, I hope you don`t mind if I join the discussion, having followed all our your threads for a week now to catch up with your discussion.

Reg. Mr. John: the important question is: How did he get hold of the bankaccount numbers? Not only one but many of them. I also think he´s not the usual scammer but also not very smart. Should have known this can´t work out.

11-14-2012 at 16:09:43

@ rva524

With the kind of media attention and political pressure bearing upon the investigation, the police have no reason to surreptitiously collect cigarette butts or anything like that. In my opinion, if they had DNA and/or prints but hadn’t found a match for those in their databases, they would have conducted a mass DNA screening and/or taken the fingerprints of all adult males (or females, as the case may be) in the region long ago – rather than analyze cow dung for DNA.

11-14-2012 at 17:27:42

@rva524 and @Peter re: DNA and cow pat

I’m not a criminologist, but I think that too much credit is given to DNA in solving crimes. Having a DNA profile solves rape cases, yes, and ‘indoor’ murders – a husband strangles his wife to death as she lies asleep, or a grandson stabs his old grandmother to death and stabs himself lightly on the leg and claims someone had broken in, but in an ‘outdoor’ mass killing like this one, DNA won’t be a major player.

As for the cow pat, I am sure that those were gathered as for example would have been cigarette butts or empty packets or sweet wrappers which were lying around. Farmers might take their cows up that road and the police wanted to know how fresh the pats were which would have told them that on the day of the murder a farmer had been on that road and might have passed someone he did not know, or did know. Imagine if it had been an area of goat farming, the police’s work would had to be so much more delicate!

@RiffRaff : re: Mr.John

I am sure that not one of us knows how the so-called Mr. John had accessed Saad Al-Hilli’s bank accounts. Fortunately, he has been charged. I hope this means that I will receive fewer ‘My Dearly Beloved’ emails in which I am told that a Mr. Alfred Mtweti from Upper Volta has just died and left me $55 million and which will be in my bank account in the morrow if only I would immediately email them my bank account number.

About him being not very smart: his scams and frauds must have been working for him or he would not have tried the Al-Hilli one. That means he was too smart for his own good.

11-14-2012 at 17:44:22


valid point. Maybe he was too smart.


does anybody know how the french/british investigators usually inform the press? Any website with press releases? Sometimes I find it hard to conclude from multiple cited information. Hints are much appreciated 🙂

11-14-2012 at 18:13:08

@RiffRaff re: how French/British investigators inform the media

In France a press conference is called through Agence France Presse, the French News Agency (AFP). The agency then transmits the date, place and time to the various news outlets. The French are not though ones to speak off the cuff to journalists; all is done through the prosecutor on a case. It seems that only AFP’s court correspondents can call up the prosecutor to ask him a question about a case.

As for the British side: I am sure that one of our commentators living in the U.K. will be able to tell you. There I can’t help you because I am in France. I do however know that the British are much more open than the French.

@RiffRaff and @All

If you are generally interested in what goes in the British courts you will find it at UK court news It’s a good site to bookmark.

11-14-2012 at 18:59:55


The french/british investigators usually do not inform the press in this case.
They keep quiet, very quiet.

11-14-2012 at 19:30:08


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Bank account information can be bought from gang members using phising – FSA UK info.

11-14-2012 at 19:38:16

Saad al-Hilli could have been victim of skimming fraud where a gang member [Abiodun David John] waited until the family was on vacation. We’ll find out as the court case unfolds.

11-14-2012 at 21:05:39

@Oui re: Internet Scams

Thanks for this. It’s frightening but also makes me very angry. I hope this ‘Mr.John’ goes to jail and on his release he is deported back to Nigeria.

11-14-2012 at 21:06:01

End of my day. Until tomorrow …

11-14-2012 at 21:58:13

I thought all cows in France laughed a lot. Glad they have caught one scumbag who is alleged to be involved in internet fraud. If it is him, how opportunistic can you be!

11-15-2012 at 04:52:59

Moved into my new home-place by sea perfect but wifi intermittent and only available right up in one corner in middle of the night. . . leading to the question??
Can it be an idyll without internet these days.

11-15-2012 at 08:28:16

@J.Cave re:no internet

Yes, it is an idyll.

@Sue R re: laughing French cows

They laugh only when you give them cheese to eat. But this will also end when they discover where the cheese comes from.

11-15-2012 at 10:05:44

It seems the french investigators are doing ‘enough’ to try to solve this killing. (Cow stuff etc.) Yet there is no advance made (at least that is not communicated)

If I was ‘investigate’ (with the knowledge I have at this moment) I would go for the motorbiker (seen by ONF and BM)

For the simple reasons of:

– He was there
– Timeline wise he could have done it (to my knowledge)
– When asked he did NOT come forward

So, to me, as an assumption to work on, the motorbiker is Killer X

As second lines I would take the following into consideration:

– He was local (knew his way around the forrest)
– He could handle guns
– He used a non-standard gun (Luger)

And as a third I would take:

– Possibly connected to SM (first targeted)
– Possibly ex-police/military/gendarmery whatever (the 3 clips out of habit)

And as a fourth:

– 25(!) bullets =3×8 (normal) + 1 in chamber (not standard, but prepped for direct action!)
– Gloves?
– Helmet? (Does Zainab have any recollection?)

And to be explained as a fascinating detail:

– Bloodspatters SM(?) on AH’s

Now when you throw all this into the mix … it is weird the police doesn’t make any advance??? How does Killer X keep out of sight??

11-15-2012 at 11:02:03

I go for that assumption (biker= killer X) too. However, if the motorbike guy was local, the ONF people would have certainly recognised this (e.g. number plate on bike) and maybe they know him. But, if he was not a local they should remember things like: was he french (at least they talked to him)? With accent? where was the bike registered (again number plate). french, italian number plate? kind of bike?

if the police does not know him, why do not release a description to the public to get hold of people driving or owning such a bike? crowdsourcing could be useful.

certainly the police knows the ONF people. They have working schedules etc. that can be investigated.

I think the police knows who killer X is possibly and they wait for the right moment to arrest him.

11-15-2012 at 11:19:16

I think it is a big mistake by the gendarmerie not to communicate what they know so far.

You might argue that we (in this forum) have not either found the murderer yet, even though we are discussing all the time. That is of course true, and our chances are of course slim, compared to the gendarmerie. They have other resources at their disposal. Still I think that I have learned a lot about this crime in this discussion, since September the 5th.

I have now a somewhat different view on this crime than I had at the beginning. Ideas from other commentators here have to a high degree contributed to that.

I think the same is true for the gendarmerie. Even if they are 60 gendarmes working on this case, that is a very small group of people. They can hardly have a clear picture of everything that goes on in the society around them. They need input from the general public. But they do not know whom to ask, and what to ask, and the public, they do not what the police wants to know. So, communication is needed.

I think the failed call for witnesses showed this clearly.

11-15-2012 at 11:30:33


What speaks against your biker theory, is that the gendarmerie (officialy) shows so little interest in these ONF guys and the biker.

I agree with RiffRaff, and I think I wrote it myself earlier, to find these ONF guys and question them, should be a small problem for the gendarmerie.

11-15-2012 at 11:40:03

@ Lars, M

My understanding is that the police have identified and spoken to the ONF people already. Did I misunderstand something there?

The trouble seems to be that the ONF people recall very little about the motorcyclist. That probably means that they did not actually stop him and talk to him, but merely sort of gesticulated at him from a distance.

11-15-2012 at 12:22:53


I think that the gendarmerie’s/Eric Maillaud’s statements regarding the ONF guys are (as usually) very vague. That was partly one of reasons why I thought the biker/ONF-scenario less probable.

If they were sure that the biker existed, he must surely be one of the prime suspects/one of the most important witnesses, still Eric Maillaud said (in one interview) that they were “also interested to talk to him”.

11-15-2012 at 12:32:23

NR let me know that he has a problem commenting here. He wanted to leave this comment, which I am now doing on his behalf. NR: if you can read this, do try to comment again.

NR’s comment:

@ Marilyn & Alexander
“@NR re: British nobility being corrupt”
“NR, they are.”
“And believing that all Canadians sell viagra on the internet.”
“@ NR:”
“Is it safe to say all spammers are Nigerian?”

Yes, yes and yes. And all American generals are extraordinarily naive.

11-15-2012 at 12:41:16

Finding that motorbike (and its rider) cannot be that easy. Descriptions that I have read variously made it a black, white, or light-coloured (couleur claire) motorcycle, sometimes with big panniers, sometimes with a topcase.

Moreover, I distinctly remember reading somewhere that the ONF people had been identified and spoken to, but one of them could not even remember encountering a motorcycle on that day.

11-15-2012 at 12:46:12

@ Peter
now that is strange. So they can´t have stopped him, hence no information from that source. Is it possible that this infamous “wall of silence” regarding locals could play a role in this? @ Marilyn: have there been criminal cases in France before, at least to your knowledge, were locals kind of protected other locals from being caught?

11-15-2012 at 13:17:44

@ RiffRaff

I don’t know about a “wall of silence,” but the ONF certainly did not have a chat with the motorcyclist or take down his details, such as the number plate. – Regarding the latter, if this was a planned murder, how likely is it that the number plate would lead the police anywhere? At least the plate, if not the entire bike, would have been stolen.

(If the bike was stolen, it might subsequently have ended up in Lake Annecy, or have been torched. That is something that the police ought to check out, in my opinion.)

11-15-2012 at 13:26:46

@RiffRaff : re: locals protecting other locals

No, RiffRaff, I do not know of such a case. Family members or spouses, yes, there have been cases where they protected a murderer.

11-15-2012 at 13:44:52

I can understand your frustration at French police methods, especially at the police’s silence. Living here and having written about quite a few cases, the silence around this case does not surprise me. Neither does it frustrate me. Even our past governments have kept us in the dark. And this current one, no less so.

The gendarmes did question the forestry guys. This was reported but I can’t remember where, but it was discussed in comments here. What exactly they had told the police about the motorcyclist was not reported – of course. Or maybe I should say ‘naturally’. The police did however say that the forestry guys are not considered as suspects.

I see no sudden conclusion of this case. In France cases drag. Sometimes it takes so long for a case to come to court that we have to be reminded what the case was about – who had murdered who, when and why.

We also have very many unsolved murder cases. Yesterday evening in Corsica – in Ajaccio – as a man was closing his shop a masked man walked up to him, pulled out a gun, and shot him dead. It was the 17th such killing in Corsica this year.

In the city of Marseilles 23 people have been shot dead so far this year. I say ‘so far’ because, as one of our TV news networks said a couple of evenings ago, December is a high-crime month for Marseilles. None of the killers are behind bars: They have not even been named, that is, identified.

There was a time when it was well-known that the police here in France only solve a case if there had been a denunciation.

So – Vive la France. I, for one, would want to live nowhere else in the world.

11-15-2012 at 13:49:02

@M ; re the motorcycle guy

I agree with you. I go for him too. He was the only other person said to have been on the road and in that area at the time of the shootings.

Elementary, my dear Watson.

11-15-2012 at 13:53:24

@Marilyn: Thanks for your comment
@Peter: you´re right if it was a preplanned murder by a professional. If it wasn´t but more like a family feud job – although well prepared – there could be some slips by Killer X. In the end what we do here is searching also for slips, don´t we?
Also, even if the plates are wrong and the ONF people not really remember, why not releasing at least the information they gave as vague as it may be to the public to increase pressure on the biker to go to the police and talk to them. I also do not believe that the ONF people can´t remember anything, I guess they are not meeting motorbikers in the woods everyday in large quantities, so they should remember something.

11-15-2012 at 14:00:06

Tip for detectives:

To hire a bike in Annecy. Roul’ ma Poule offers “comfort” models or more expensive racing bikes from a shop on the edge of the lake at 47, avenue du Petit Port.

(Marilyn, perhaps you can be paid, for this advertisement 🙂 )

11-15-2012 at 14:00:50

What about the white Peugeot 206/306 that some witnesses saw speeding away? What about the white 306 “un peu folle” with the two (wigged?) people inside?

Intuitively, I would go for the motorcycle, too, though. It is the fastest, most versatile getaway vehicle there is, plus it offers a legitimate reason for wearing a disguise (in the form of a helmet) and gloves.

11-15-2012 at 14:00:57

I’m with Peter on this one.

I think that the ONF ppl had a quick glimpse of the motorbike guy as did BM. Perhaps the ONF guys sitting in the 4×4 ‘encountered’ the motorbike guy driving on the parallel forrest road, and made a ‘gesture’ to indicate he had to leave. The motorbike guy, Killer X 🙂 wouldn’t argue with this … nodded (with his ID protected by his helmet perhaps even ‘glasses’) and made sure he got ‘out of this situation’ asap. So the ONF 4×4 left for the road, and so did the motorbike guy. The ONF guys saw motorbike guy doing what they had gestured him to do and made no further trouble.

ONF 4×4 went dir. Ch. and so did the motorbike guy … both were seen by BM in that order.

NOW, the ONLY significant chenge in my view towards this motorbike guy is that after tweaking the timeline HE MIGHT HAVE FITTED being killer X (which I previously thought not to be possible)


11-15-2012 at 14:02:12

(edit button missing:)


11-15-2012 at 14:18:10

@ RiffRaff
Yes, you are probably right. The kind of “professional” killer who would steal a motorbike for a job and torch it afterwards would have used a different kind of gun.

@ M
Although I love your timeline, I still don’t buy the idea that somebody would take three full magazines (plus one round in the chamber, violating one of the cardinal rules of gun safety) along to kill a single man. The killer must have felt that he would need as much ammunition as he could possibly pack. In my opinion, that makes him either: 1. somebody who was after the AH family, or 2. a nutter who wanted to kill as many people as he could.

11-15-2012 at 14:20:01

@Marilyn, re: frustration

Frustrated or not, since I am pretty sure that also some gendarmes are reading this blog, one can’t help it, but it is funny to tease them a little.

11-15-2012 at 14:25:53

@Lars : re: teasing the coppers

Yesterday, we did take the mickey out of them with our cow pat comments.

11-15-2012 at 14:26:20

Here´s a link from a guy who seems to know around Lugers quite well. At 6.54 – 6.56 he is talking about a small wood part of the magazine that can come of. maybe thats what the police people found and not a part of the grip plates

11-15-2012 at 14:32:30


The only thing of the 3 clips for SM I can think of (and it was suggested by somebody else … was it not you?) is that Killer X took 3 clips ‘out of habit’

11-15-2012 at 14:44:12

Probably the magazine fell on the gound
wooden part came of and was found by the police
Remember the 30 sec. time frame
Killer X must have been in real good practice

11-15-2012 at 14:56:38

@ M
I do realize that I am contradicting myself all the time here, but I don’t think that you got that “3 mags out of habit” idea from me. Also, if anything, the “habit” would involve wearing a duty belt with pouches for two spare mags, amongst other things. Somehow, I don’t see the killer doing that.

@ RiffRaff
Excellent thinking! Yes, it could have been this little wooden bit that came off

11-15-2012 at 15:00:15

@ Peter & Marilyn regarding the ONF:

You know guys, I never really got the answer to my question:



they say

“Mr Maillaud today renewed his appeal for the driver of a green 4×4 vehicle seen speeding towards the scene by Mr Martin to come forward, suggesting the car might have belonged to the National Forestry Office, the ONF. But Mr Maillaid added: ‘It’s a theory but there is no certainty.’

while here

they say

“Regarding the green four wheel drive seen by the English cyclist who discovered the bodies, it is understood that this is well a National Forestry Office’s craft whos driver had been ruled out [as a suspect, AC].”

So which is true now?”

Finally, astonishingly, I went with the Daily Mail version – Le Parisien’s infos were based on M6 infos, said to be (by Marilyn among others) not too trustworthy.

Plus, in case French gendarmerie involved, I always fear for the worst – they haven’t found yet the ONF guy(s).

11-15-2012 at 15:02:34

@ Marilyn- you made a comment-“The police did however say that the forestry guys are not considered as suspects.”

That got me thinking that the forestry guys would make excellent murderers. They would know the roads better than anyone, and would not arouse suspicion when in the vicinity. I’m not suggesting that they are the murderers, but someone in a similarly situated position would at least warrant further investigation. Seems odd that the police would say that they are not suspects though. As if that was a question posed to them…

11-15-2012 at 15:13:54

@RiffRaff : re: youtube Luger

I watched it. Thanks for drawing our attention to it. Now I want to ask you a stupid question: when does one say ‘gun’ and when ‘pistol’. Did you see the comments on the youtube video. Someone said that Hitler shot himself with a Luger but that person was then corrected: he shot himself with a Walther PPK. My dad had a gun and I think it was a Walther PPK. (No, my dad wasn’t Hitler!!)

11-15-2012 at 15:16:36

@Alexander re the green 4×4

I think the latest, and now understood to be correct, version is that it was the forestry guys’ vehicle.

11-15-2012 at 15:22:08

@rva524 and @Alexander and @All: re forestry guys

We did have a murder here in France a few years back and the murderer was a forestry guy. Famous case. But I do not want to go into that now. (Alexander, you may know which it is: involved a famous actor.) We also sometimes have a case where a hunter shoots someone dead believing he had aimed at a buck (deer). Then, the investigation shows that that was not at all what had happened, that it was premeditated murder. He had fired with murder in mind.

11-15-2012 at 15:24:31

@ Marilyn
“NR: if you can read this, do try to comment again.”

OK, I will try and see what happens. It is a software problem at my end.

11-15-2012 at 15:25:21

@ Alexander Cartier
I think it’s question of chronology: In earlier reports, the idea that the green 4×4 belonged to the ONF was merely mentioned as a possibility, in later reports it is confimed as fact.

@ all
I am sorry, I made a mistake earlier: The ONF guys do not remember seeing a cyclist (i. e., William Brett Martin) on the day. They do remember the motorcycle, though.

Le 4×4 de couleur sombre, qui avait été vu par le cycliste britannique ayant découvert la tuerie, appartiendrait à des agents de l’Office national des forêts (ONF). Un doute subsiste cependant, les agents en question n’ayant pas souvenir d’avoir croisé un cycliste sur leur route.

Une moto “blanche ou de couleur claire” est par ailleurs recherchée mais les enquêteurs ne connaissent ni sa marque ni son modèle. Les témoignages divergent sur sa description, certains évoquant de grosses sacoches, d’autres un top-case. Cette moto, qui s’était aventurée sur des sentiers forestiers, “avait été reconduite dans le chemin de la combe d’Ire par des agents de l’ONF”, a indiqué le procureur. Son conducteur n’a jamais été retrouvé malgré les appels à témoins

11-15-2012 at 15:25:56

@ Marilyn Re: Gun vs. pistol
To be honest I do not have the slightest clue. I did not even serve in the army back in the time. I´m an absolute civlian. Maybe its the same thing as with “ship” and “boat”. From my point of view “gun” is the more general term, could also be a tank gun. Pistol may have something to do with the reloading mechanism. pistol (straight mag) vs. revolver (round mag)

11-15-2012 at 15:31:49

@ Marilyn

The correct appellation is “one-hand gun,” of which there are two basic types, pistols and revolvers, which differ in the way that the ammunition is fed. There are also Derringers, which have one barrel per cartridge.

11-15-2012 at 15:32:47

@NR : re: commenting problem

OK, it got through!

11-15-2012 at 15:33:40

@RiffRaff and RVA524 : re: gun vs pistol

And now you’ve mentioned ‘revolver’ too. I want to sort this out. Our firearm expert is RVA524, so perhaps he can tell us.

11-15-2012 at 15:44:14

@ Marilyn
“NR: if you can read this, do try to comment again.”
“OK, I will try and see what happens. It is a software problem at my end.”

Well, that is strange; it works now and I haven’t changed anything. I have nothing much to add to the discussion except to say there are some communities where no person would dare speak of crimes for fear of retribution, but these are communities totally controlled by gangs and the drug business. From what I’ve read here, Annecy and the area does not sound like that at all.

@ Lars
“Never trust a cow is my motto. You never know what a cow will do, just continue to ruminate looking totally uninterested, or run you down.”

Wise advice. In the country we’d drive through herds of cows slowly, but you had to watch for one that would do something unexpected. In hunting season cows are mostly not bothered by single shots, even shotguns, a hundred meters away, but no idea how they would react to what they said was 30 seconds of gunfire.

11-15-2012 at 15:55:38

@ RiffRaff re ONF identifying the (local) motorbike rider:

“@ rva524 regarding French moto license plates:

They all have license plates.


The department is not officially part of the license plate.

However, it is still on it.

However, you can just let it away when you order your license plate.

It’s illegal but works very well.

Even if you put the department on the licence plate, French law would allow you to put whatever logo of whatever other region (combining multiple departments) on the same plate so with a quick check somebody might think you are from a totally different region of France.”

11-15-2012 at 15:56:25

@ Marilyn

Wikipedia can help:

I think that their definition of the term “handgun” is dodgy, though.
As I have said, the original (and IMHO, correct) term is “one-hand gun”. I collect old shooting manuals, and that is the term used in the english-language ones.

11-15-2012 at 15:58:12

Weird detail (which I would like to neglect but I DO have to bring it up)


– BM saw 1. ONF 2. Moto 3. Killingspot
– ONF saw 1. Moto (but no 2. BM)
– Moto did NOT come forward

Now, I hate to bring this up myself again (as I was into BM=truth) but there are 2 options:

1. ONF simply can not remember seeing BM
2. BM is lying!

It would have been so much easier if at least the ONF guys did SEE BM, but no they have no memory of this. How mind boggling is this!!!! They come down a small road from about Martinet to Chevaline and can NOT remember a biker although they should have practivcally ran him down (as there is hardly room for 2 cars passing each other)

Just to muse … suppose BM is lying … he did lie in an extraordinary way because he brought up the ONF 4×4 as well as the motorbiker!

… anyway. BM can’t be the killer (did NOT lie) because … if BM IS the killer, then the motorbiker is NOT the killer. And if the motorbiker is NOT the killer he mj\ight as well come forward (because he DOES exist … both BM adn ONF mention him)

From this I have to conclude that it is option 1. The ONF guys simply do NOT remember seeing BM (weird as this may sound)

11-15-2012 at 15:58:45

@NR : re: communities not daring to speak

We have that too here, NR. I must therefore add to what I said earlier about communities not protecting a killer,but that families do. Our two largest crime areas are Marseilles and Corsica.The latter, as you will know is the French island in the Mediterranean which wants its independence. In Corsica we definitely have an omerta policy: people are scared to talk. As for Marseilles the law-abiding citizen will not hesitate to denounce a criminal but would do so only if the police can assure them that they will be protected against retribution. Earlier this afternoon I mentioned that 23 people have so far this year been shot dead in Marseilles.These shootings take place openly on the city’s streets and there are always eyewitnesses but when they speak to TV reporters their faces are greyed out and their voices are disguised. So there does exist fear here to recount what one has seen.

11-15-2012 at 16:03:36

@ M

But you have solved that puzzle already (as well as the problem that Philippe Didierjean) cannot remember seeing either the ONF 4×4 or a motorcycle: Both the motorcycle and the 4×4 went down the parallel route.

11-15-2012 at 16:04:12

@Peter re: gun and pistols

Thanks very much for your explanation and the links. I will study them all. I am working on an article now about a French guy who shot dead 7 people and I must get it right. Much appreciated, Peter.

11-15-2012 at 16:05:48

@ Marilyn- pistols v. revolvers

Pistols technically is a semi-automatic hand gun, although I have seen the term misused to describe any handgun. A revolver is also a hand gun but the bullets are not stored in a clip like a pistol. A revolver is what you typically see in the cowboy movies, or what would be used to play Russian Roulette (the bullets are stored in a cylinder and turn with each pull of the trigger. For a semi-automatic (pistol) hand gun, the bullets are stored in a clip that is inserted into grip.

11-15-2012 at 16:07:41

@ M re: 1. ONF simply can not remember seeing BM
2. BM is lying!

Good points you make here. I just thought that the ONF guys’ vehicle might have been behind trees (not on the road) and could not see the road, whereas BM was on the road and could see through the trees.

11-15-2012 at 16:13:39

@rva524 : Re pistols etc

Thanks very much. With your help and that of Peter I hope not to call a gun a pistol again etc.

Can you help me with this? The guy in the article I am working on now had 2 9mm Glocks and a Smith and Wesson .357 magnum. Now what are those? Pistols? Please,if you can help me with this.

11-15-2012 at 16:13:40


“Both the motorcycle and the 4×4 went down the parallel route.”

But then the RAF man hadn’t met them.

11-15-2012 at 16:17:01

@ M

Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear (I misplaced a bracket). What I think happened is that both the motorbike and the ONF 4×4 took the western parallel route at the fork in the road above the lay-by. Thus, WBM, who was close enough, briefly saw them above the lay-by, whereas Didierjean, who arrived later using the same route as WBM, saw neither.

11-15-2012 at 16:19:05

@NR re: your problem

Maybe you had the same problem as I had earlier, some strange character, that the blog does like, sneaked into the comment (probably some CTRL-character since it was not visible). (this part is reliable)

I think you can’t write “molly” here then everything goes topsy-turvy

11-15-2012 at 16:20:38

Yikes, eastern! Sorry.

Look at the videos of the scene that Oui linked earlier. Coming up to the lay-by, on that straight stretch of road leading up to the lay-by, WBM would have seen the motorcycle and the 4×4 crossing his field of vision from right to left. Didierjean, who was further down the road, saw neither.

11-15-2012 at 16:22:57


I don’t want to be nitpicking, but then they must have passed the murder scene before the RAF man, and ignored it.

11-15-2012 at 16:26:10

@ Lars

No, the beauty of this is – as indeed you and M have shown earlier – that the lay-by is barely visible, seen from further up the road.

11-15-2012 at 16:28:11


Even if one or both, ONF + biker, came from the mountain, Col de Cherel. I think there is no possibility for the RAF man to see them.

The road starts bending (to the left) after passing the barrier, the road crossing lies slightly “above” the Route Forestiere, to the left, behind the scrubbery.

11-15-2012 at 16:38:37


To perhaps explain my view a bit better. If you stand on the road before you arrive at the lay-by (from Chevaline) you will see a sign right in front of you. That is the second information sign (the first stands at the lay-by).

The crossing lies to the left of that sign.

Anybody coming from Col de Cherel, choosing the parallell road (or vice-versa) can thus hardly be seen from a position on Route Forestiere before the lay-by.

I have excellent pictures of that on my computer, but I was sadly not so careful in the beginning and saved all links.

11-15-2012 at 16:51:01

@ Lars

Maybe you are right. Looking at the map alone, which I am doing now, the Chemin rural dit de la Montagne is almost an extension, and lies in the line-of-sight, of the Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré. True, the turn into Route Domaniale de la Grande Combe dite Chaplain is hidden, but there should be a line of sight between the stretch of road on Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré just north of (downhill of) the lay-by and the last stretch of Chemin rural dit de la Montagne. WBM would have seen the motorbike and the 4×4 approach and turn off to the left (for them, it would have been making a right turn). Conversely, they might or might nor have seen WBM, but they would nout have seen the lay-by.

11-15-2012 at 16:56:13

@Lars : re: pictures on your computer of road etc.

Lars, if it is possible, can you email me these pictures, please. No hurry. And if it is too much of a bother, I will quite understand. Thanks.

11-15-2012 at 16:56:34

I’m off for dinner. Until tomorrow.

11-15-2012 at 17:16:58

@ Lars
At 0:55 into the video, where that silver car is parked. Could WBM have seen that spot from beneath the lay-by? I think he could have (but only just about).

11-15-2012 at 17:24:19

@MZT, Peter and all,

No no, we’re mixing up things now.

ONF4x4 and motorbike were on the parallel road close by Martinet. BM was still a lot further downhill (just starting to climb) …

Now The ONF ‘direct’ motorbike to the road where with BM now about halfway CH/Sign and Martinet.

ONF4x4 and motorbike go DOWN to Ch/Sign (and take route du molin)

On their way down they ‘meet’ BM. BM sees BOTH but ONF4x4 can NOT(?) remember BM??????

As said, ONF4x4 and motorbike go ‘route du moulin’ dir. Arnand and just miss Phillippe D who comes from Chevaline to go uphill to Martinet.

An incredible ‘play of seconds’

But still, in my visionalized’ story I see it before me.

The ONLY big ‘tweak’ is that the timeline is very tight to fit all in. SM must have gone fast uphill while BM was slow (but that could be as BM said he was already bking more than an hour so he was tired)

Perhaps next to the timeline I should draw on a map the ‘routes’ taken of AH, SM, BM, ONF, PhilippeD and motorbiker as Killer X … because it is difficult to put into words

11-15-2012 at 17:30:09


I have mailed you the pictures.


I am sorry but I still don’t think it is possible. I went through this very carefully when I was discussing with Max if there were any pictures from the other side of the barrier towards the lay-by (and Max found these).

I think you can see that if you look through the three links that Oui provided above, and the video from Max.

I also thought earlier that the Route Forestiere continued more or less straight ahead after the barrier but it doesn’t, as said it turns left, towards the second information sign, passes the sign on its left hand side, and then actually seems to go downwards the first hundred meter or so that you can see.

So if you stand at the lay-by you can see the road until the second information sign and nothing more.

In the other direction, towards Chevaline, I think you can see 100-200 metres before the road turns.

So even if the RAF man had almost reached the lay-by, I think that all he could see was that something was moving ahead (and perhaps hear), maybe see a corner of the car.

11-15-2012 at 17:37:07


Can’t you draw a picture how you mean? I can’t fit that together. How did the ONF and the biker get from the parallell road to Route Forestiere and so on ?

11-15-2012 at 18:13:10


I think I understand now what you mean now.

I missed earlier that there is a connection between the Route Forestiere and the parallell road, before the lay-by. You mean that the ONF guys forced the biker to go back down to the Route Forestiere on that connection (seems to lie logs there in Google maps)?

11-15-2012 at 18:28:12

@ Lars
So if you stand at the lay-by you can see the road until the second information sign and nothing more.
I think that you are right. Well, there goes that hypothesis …

@ M
You are talking about the lane connecting the Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré with the Chemin rural dit Ancien chemin de la Combe d’Iré, about 800 metres downhill from (north of) of the lay-by, right?

11-15-2012 at 19:16:08

“… when does one say ‘gun’ and when ‘pistol’. …”

Definitions from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary

small firearm to be held in one hand; a similar small handgun discharged without an explosive, as one using compressed air. M16.

1 Any large piece of equipment used in medieval warfare.
2 A weapon consisting of a large metal tube mounted on a carriage or fixed substructure from which missiles are expelled by the force of an explosion; a cannon.
3 Any portable firearm (formerly, excluding the pistol)
4 A member of a shooting party; a gunner; N. Amer. a gunman.
5 A hand-held device from which a substance can be discharged at will by means of compressed air etc.

So I would suggest, in modern usage, a pistol is a type of gun and that pistols can be sub divided into different types in various ways eg: revolver, semi-automatic, single-shot, flint-lock, match-lock, muzzle loading etc, etc. In other words it depends how specific you want to be in describing the weapon.

I’m a native British-English speaker and that is how I’ve always understood it. Of course usage may vary in other versions of English.

11-15-2012 at 19:59:51


I was compelled to send you this information (source link below) regarding Swiss bank accounts (et alii) opened by Saddam Hussein, under the name of “Satan.”

It seems that here may be some connection to this information and the Al Hilli murders, possibly involving other family members and/or associations.

The outcry by the “Al-Hilli friends and family” regarding the “discussions and accusations” are understandable, but the family of the victims MUST understand how important it is for civilized society to understand the motivations and circumstances imposed upon them, especially as foreign nationals, legal citizens or not. Investigations into their personal lives are inevitable, but they must learn to understand WHY this is necessary. Yes they lost a loved one (especially those poor little girls’ losses of their own parents), and I too, an sorry for their loss, but they must LEARN TO RESPECT RULE OF LAW and what that Rule of Law entails. They must ALSO UNDERSTAND that these investigations are absolutely necessary to ferret out the truth. If they are NOT hiding anything, as good citizens, they must succumb to this enormous responsibility as “good citizens.” Rule of Law REQUIRES it, and they must understand that natural born citizens are subject to the same scrutiny, especially when a PUBLIC CRIME occurs!

They also need to understand that this violence, and other foreign crimes that involve their homelands, is another revelation of how wars outside of our Western nations have become and SERIOUS INTERNAL CONCERN to ALL WESTERN CITIZENS that far outweighs their private concerns. This is a SOCIAL CONCERN regarding the safety of ALL PEOPLE! I’m sure the innocent bystanders would also appreciate this fact. They should understand that we care about their family, and in that concern, are also concerned for potentially more innocent victims being targeted.

I refer them to the murder in Houston, TX of Iranian-American human rights activist, Gelareh Bagherzadeh.

I, and others here, truly appreciate your website, and the continuing commentary provided this board. (As I do not use social media, this is especially appreciated.)

As I worked for two law enforcement agencies and federal investigators, as well as Search and Rescue, this case is especially important to me as a professional investigator, researcher and published author. I have directly witnessed both ineptitude and corruption in law enforcement, and have stood against it, even under dangerous circumstances, to which I have since removed myself. I have sustained serious life-long injuries as a result of standing against injustice, to which I have never received compensation. JUSTICE and TRUTH are my compensation.

There are many wonderful and adept investigators and I am hoping that they will be able to offset the ineptitude by some investigators, but after extensively researching this case, I believe that this case has become a matter of “National Security” and therefore, results of the investigation will not be publicized, although I wish this was not the case; however I also believe that citizens should have the right to know why their fellow citizens, neighbors, friends and family were killed, especially when it prevents future crimes.

I still believe that this attack was not a random act, and that it was planned, at least in part, by individuals connected to foreign national crime(s).

I hope that law enforcement and government representatives come forward with information regarding the INTERNAL SECURITY CONCERNS that our Western nations face in light of the rampant immigration of criminals and others who have the ABSOLUTE INTENTION of harming our Western “Rule of Law.” Many foreigners who emigrate from their homelands have prior criminal backgrounds and openly commit crimes, or bring elements of crime into our society, thereby further jeopardizing our citizens’ security (not that we don’t already have a problem with hoodlums already). This must be addressed through protective policies.

I must also mention how VITAL the freedom of the internet is that has provided a voice for all peoples of all nations (except those who are compelled to refrain from their own comments as a result of their country’s violations of human rights and rights to free speech, like China and N. Korea) that very possibly could provide information to help resolve this case.

We never know who is on the other side of this ethereal wall, and must fully respect (even when not in agreement) those opinions and ideas, until such time as those ideas are harmful or criminal. I hope people consider the CONSEQUENCES of their right to free speech and treat it with respect. It is a sad situation for those who WANT to come forward, but can’t because of potential harm and/or retaliation against the truth. This board (and many others) has absolutely proven to be a provision for us to voice our stories and concerns, absent of adverse recourse for providing TRUTH. For those who use it to intentionally commit crimes, cause harm, and hide truth, I condemn their acts and hope they will learn to use public forums and comment boards to perpetuate truth and rightful thinking, absent of selfish agenda.

Again, thank you for providing this website…


PS I will provide more updates as time and circumstance permits, and with shorter posts!

(In reference to my previous reports regarding the racks on top of the car, those were vehicle racks, but one was torn off/partly missing for whatever reason. There have been no public reports regarding the condition of the missing rack, in regards to whether that occurred during the murders, or was a pre-existing condition.)


11-15-2012 at 20:03:58

Also, I hope that people realize that the WEAPON USED was inconsequential! MANY WEAPONS are avaiable on the black market and can be used by anyone to commit any type of crime. Unless the ACTUAL GUN is obtained by law enforcement, it is doubtful that investigaors can track the weapon…may guns exist that also use various types of ammunition.
Following that (ammo) track is only a SMALL PART of an investigation.

11-15-2012 at 21:37:47

@Peter, Lars,

Yup, i’m thinking of that connection road +/-800m north of Martinet.

I’ll try to make some maps with tracks/timestamps … to see if the timeline holds up and to clarify my ideas.

Because that junction poses a even stricter limit to the timeline. Because both ONF4x4 and Motorbike have to be there and BM must not have past that point. (but BM said he saw them ‘halfwayish’ so that at least fits)

Anyway, with (assuming) SM being target, the parallel road killer X (motorbike) is quite elegant. But as ‘nutter’ of even worse as AH killer it isn’t so straightforward. Only with SM as target and Killer X knowing SM’s destination (Martinet) … the parallel road trick works fine.

11-15-2012 at 22:15:29


It is about 1600 m, shortest way, from the lay-by, over the parallell road, and back down to Route Forestiere.

So the motorbike has to be able to go at least 1600 m on a rough track before he could meet the RAF man on Route Forestiere.

11-15-2012 at 22:34:39

@ Marilyn

To answer your earlier question about the guy with two 9mm Glocks and a Smith and Wesson .357 magnum: The Glocks were definitely pistols, as Glock have never produced any revolvers. The Smith & Wesson was almost certainly a revolver, as .357 Magnum is a revolver cartridge.

11-15-2012 at 22:36:46

I have all the time had the nutter as a “last escape-scenario”. However since the “Le Monde-scenario” (which I actually find much better than the one I orginally thought was the right one) was presented, I find the complete nutter a less probable perpetrator.

In the “Le Monde-scenario” the perpetrator has to react fast, run fast, shoot accurately. A description that fits badly with a complete nutter.

The nutter was for me initially only designation for a killer without a motive, someone with no connection to the victims. Now with new demands on the perpetrator I begin to think more about a young man, with an unhealthy interest in arms and wars, probably also with some emotional shortcomings.

The problem with such a killer is that I think he should have been noticed in the neighbourhood. This crime should not have been the first type of crime he had commited. Probably he should also have been shooting at other not so extreme things earlier. The cow-shootings would have fit in but they were probably performed with another type of weapon.

11-15-2012 at 22:55:43

Find the animated timeline here

Also in the static timeline here

I will note that it is

A. very very tight
B. but elegant
C. possible

– M

11-15-2012 at 23:19:12


Nice. Shows it is at least possible. Two minutes for the killings I though think is very tight. If he parked his bike at the crossing, which is ca 50 m from the lay-by, he could probably miss the car, and arrive simultaneously as the cyclist.

11-16-2012 at 01:04:33

@Lars (and all),

Yup, it is tight. Perhaps it is possible to tweak a minute here and there but not much.

On the other hand. If ‘my’ scenario is right (SM target + parallel route X) then the ‘duration’ of the ‘planned’ killing is determined by only 2 (3) variables.

The route of X is Arnand – Martinet – Arnand

The planing becomes ‘on rails’ as soon as SM arrives in Arnand (because then X will ‘know’ that SM goes to Martinet and puts his plan into action)

So the ‘duration’ becomes:

Arnand – Martinet = the time it takes SM to do this route on his bike (uphill but quite fast)
Killing = 2 minutes
Martinet – Arnand = the time it takes Killer X on his motorbike (downhill fast)

Which is roughly 15 + 2 + 8 = 25 minutes (max)

In this light the ‘planned’ killing is already tight. But when you throw AH, ONF, BM and PD in the mix it becomes a near ‘traffic jam’:)

11-16-2012 at 01:07:02

@ Lars:

No, the killer is an old man, in my opinion.

The gun is an old man’s gun.

Peter estimated the gun at 1500 – 3000 €.

It’s a collectors item or somebody just kept it without collecting.

It’s just not cool.

“Wouldn’t the gun (contrary to a, let’s say, Drulov) not point to a killer being very old as in “it was not only grandpa’s gun, it was grandpa himself”?”

11-16-2012 at 01:22:28


Old is a relative term. Are you thinking into 70+ region?

What about ‘fit’? As I see it he had to be quite fit (and I dont see the motorbiker being ‘grandpa’ so if X is old, the motorbiker is out)

11-16-2012 at 01:37:55

@ Max:

I am 40, so “old” means 50+ for me.

And yes, the guy’s fit.

Kind of a French David Petraeus:)

For the motorbiker being the killer an old killer does not seem so likely, I agree.

@ Peter regarding the link to the motorbikes description:

What the heck, the guy was riding a “white or light coloured bike”?

What are those?

I’ve almost never seen them come in white or light colours, except for Kawasakis.

Was the guy riding a Kawasaki Z750, easily France’s best selling bike, coming often in light green (“Kawasaki lime green”) and very seldom in white, or what?

11-16-2012 at 08:12:00

@Peter : re: Glocks and Magnums

Thanks for info, Peter. Much appreciated.

11-16-2012 at 08:14:22

November 17. (I think.) I found Sophia’s comment of last night about the firearm (Peter, do you notice I say firearm now to be on the safe side) used very interesting. I will be talking about it later when I am properly awake.

11-16-2012 at 08:49:27


51yr … is not ‘old’ for this case:P (I dont have a motorbike driving license)

For me, the motorbike guy is Killer X … unless EM comes forward with more details (positions/times etc) which rules him out on a timeline basis.

If the motorbike guy is ‘in’ (for me he is) we can perhaps rule out 75+ grandpa’s, but 50+ ‘older types’ are very possible:P

Even if you (anyone) think this is a ‘nutter’ case, our motorbike guy is still the number one suspect, and that by a very large margin

It is up to EM to debunk the motorbike guy

11-16-2012 at 08:56:29

@M : re; motorbike guy

M, I am with you on this. That’s our killer.

11-16-2012 at 09:11:45


The firearm is important as it is the only lead we know about. It is an unusual gun being a Luger P06 and relatively difficult to get ammo for. Each part of the gun has a registration number that is traceable. The gun is probably worth more as a collectors item than as a black market weapon. The police found part of the gun and extensive police work might lead back to the original owner. I believe this weapon has remained in the same family over the years. So the killer could be the original owner’s son or grandson etc. I don’t thick a professional buying a gun on the black market would have chosen this weapon, he would have choice and chosen something better and less traceable. Yes, the police will have other leads that we know nothing of. But ultimately the police will need help, I just wonder why they are so slow is asking for it? For instance, there are some real Luger experts out there, I wonder if they have been contacted for help?

Note the weapon might prove whether this is a local crime, or as you believe outsiders or foreigners.

11-16-2012 at 09:43:37

Motor-bike and Midlife Crisis go practically hand in hand. N’est pas?

Does anyone know how tall Said was? He appears to be quite a diminutive man.?

Am I right in thinking no-one would bat an eye-lid if they saw a licenced hunter be-sporting himself about the place in an ammo vest.
Wasn’t it noted that is was practically the beginning of the hunting season? Is this something ONF rangers police?

8.39am (2bars of bandwith) 16th November 2012

11-16-2012 at 10:00:48

@Alexander Regarding: Age & Beauty

Non, no, we can’t have Petraeus also, involved in this case, one womanizer is more than enough.
(I actually don’t understand that case either. I read somewhere that his fellow general (what’s his name?) emailed his mistress 3000 (!) pages. Did he mail her Anna Karenina or the Bible? 1 page at a time?)

You know, your reflexes starts to go down quickly when you are 40+, so to be able to handle the “Le Monde-scenario” I put a dime on a younger man, especially if he is without a personal motive.

11-16-2012 at 10:07:30

@ J Cave

There is a photo of Mr. al-Hilli (I guess you mean Saad, since you write “was”) standing next to his colleague Gary. He seems to be below average in Western Europe. (

11-16-2012 at 10:09:37

@Lars : re: emailing Anna Karenina or the Bible.

Oh Lars, you’ve made me laugh now. It’s a miserably cold and foggy morning in Paris, so I needed that laugh.Thank you.

11-16-2012 at 10:15:34

@J Cave : re midlife crisis and motorbikes.

Yes, an old ‘git’ of 50 and 1 day in tight leather pants, thigh-boots (excess stock from Puss in Boots London West End show of 1946 – first post-war show in bombed-out London), old and creaky yet still bulging biceps under leather jacket, crash helmet, and packet of Rennie for his heartburn along with his old rusty Luger in his trouser back pocket. Yeh! Here we go! There will still be life in the old guy.

11-16-2012 at 10:25:29

@Alexander Regarding: Equipment

Would you not choose a motorcross type of motorcycle if you were to ride on those mountain tracks, just like the “young giant” on the other mountain side?

The gun. I think as Peter (?) wrote earlier that the guy has no criminal background, so that was the weapon he had available that could not be easily traced.

If you take a look at these weapon collectors sites you will find that also young collectors actually find this gun cool, very very cool. So you just have to be that kind of guy, a lot into weapons.

11-16-2012 at 10:27:17

It won’t surprise me whatever the age of X turns out to be. Anything from 17 to 80 is possible (or younger, or older), but probably I would go for 17 to 65. If it is a local, whatever you deem old, they are all pretty fit due to; cycling, walking skiing and shooting. If an outssider I would probably go for 25 to 50. I don’t think X is necessary that good a shot, he missed plenty of times on moving targets. No one would miss on the close up shots (but not something most people could carry out) and the first shots his targets were standing still, maybe 10 metres away (the police will know). Maybe the height of X can be determined i.e. forensics/ballistics on the gunshot wounds to SAH, SM and ZH. Also maybe approximate weight from footprints in the mud. So we might end up with a male, average height, average weight and average age. But we might end up with a giant or a midget, now that would be interesting.

11-16-2012 at 10:41:58

@ Alexander Cartier

Your comment about a white or light-coloured bike made me think. There was a brief fad in 2009 for white road bikes, but not that many were produced. The only motorbike I can think of that is sold in large numbers in white, and has always popular in that colour, is the BMW GS-Series. As a long-distance enduro, it would also fit the bill as the kind of bike that would likely be equipped with panniers and/or a top case.

Like a P06, a BMW GS is an object that some would regard as a little staid and unfashionable, whereas others would regard it as an expensive piece of quality engineering.

11-16-2012 at 10:48:41

Evocative picture of Mid-life Moto-manX . . Ha Ha

Anecdotal info as usual.
My own Grandpa Valentine rode his motor-bike into his Eighties until he broke his leg. He was a Yorkshire-man and he had all his own teeth when he died!
I think that region of France/Switzerland breeds them tough too. All that
extremes of temperature and aerobic exercise up and down mountains.
++ Great food / quiet roads/ awesome vistas . . . .
Certainly looking at the regions death-notices there seems to be plenty of people making it into well-old age at the moment.
My brother did a study for his PHD which quantified population to natural resources(UK) and the nirvana point here was reached in 1920’s. Those were the people who had things in balance in terms of life-style factors.

REF the gun-worship thing . . I believe there are companies that make gun replicas Probably mostly young men go away on sorties in full gear playing-war-weekends and Haute-Savoie is a venue for this. !

People .. . . Do you think that one could ‘practice’ speedy gun-use with a replica? or even virtually on a computer game. Is it that realistic?

11-16-2012 at 10:54:14

@ Lars:

It was General Allen, soon to be NATO commander in Europe.

He’s a four star general who started adressing people in e-mails as “sweetheart”, because “he’s from Virginia”:)

I would not accept one single command from a soldier who’s off-duty adressing normal people as “sweethearts”.

But I’ve never been to the armed forces.

It was between 20000 and 30000 e-mails (why can’t one have this number correct, I know my inbox’ counts down to the last number, why estimate such a highly technical fact) and it came over in newspapers as “between 20000 and 30000 pages”.

Sure, if you’re a journalist and you haven’t done your homework, then one e-mail = one page.

They calculated around “40 mails per day”.

When was this guy commanding anyway?

@ j_cave regarding the “Mid-Bike-crisis”:

Haha, great, but it counts only for lawyers/dentists and their Harleys.

Got my licence at 28 and my bike the same day.

11-16-2012 at 11:03:46

@ Peter:

BMW R 1150/1200/1250 GS was my first thought.

Oui has obviously already thought in that direction.

Anyway, even if it’s highly sought after here and for it’s price astonishingly high-selling it’s still some for the middle-class (dentists, lawyers) in contrary to Germany where it’s more affordable.

I don’t the killer as middle-class.

Plus, it comes usually in silver.

You’re thinking of the “Dakar Edition”? It’s blue, red and…white, but I wouldn’t describe it as “white or light coloured”.

Basically, due to higher prices or lower income or both people here go for the F800GS, also available as “Dakar Edition”.

“Light coloured or white” let me think of Kawasaki Z750/Z1000/EF-6n/EF-6f, unfortunately often equipped with Givi topcases.

Z750 was the bestselling bike in France around 2009 and should still be (the n°1, Piaggio mp3, I don’t consider a bike:)

11-16-2012 at 11:07:24

@ Peter – cont’d + Max:

If in fact it was a BMW R/F motorbike than they argued not about baguettes, but it was a sales show of a certain Bavarian car + motorbike manufacturer up there:)

11-16-2012 at 11:11:12

@ J Cave

In fact, practicing shooting at people is something that one can *only* do with paintball guns these days.

Across Europe, the laws and regulations concerning the kind of shooting that one may practice with *real* guns in a shooting club have been progressively tightened over the years. In most countries, it is simply no longer possible to practice combat shooting moves such as quick drawing, shooting from multiple positions, rapid magazine changes, shooting double taps etc. Try that sort of thing in a shooting club, and you will be out on your ear immediately.

Anyway, I don’t think that the Chevaline killer had (or would have needed) specialist training in combat shooting. Shooting SM off his bike was good shooting, assuming that SM was cycling at normal speed at the time, because a cyclist is a small, moving target. Everything else suggests, to my mind, a shooter who had only ever practiced shooting at stationary cardboard targets before.

11-16-2012 at 11:16:42

Funny note on motorbike names:

Our killer could drive a:






“Katana” (sword of Ninjas)

All these names really exist.

11-16-2012 at 11:18:32

+ motorbike I forgot:

“Slingshot”‘s not bad either, is it?


11-16-2012 at 11:29:41

@ Alexander Cartier

I don’t know about “middle class,” but the fact that the killer could afford to own an expensive collectors’ piece of a gun (even if he had found it in an attic, he could have sold it on) means that the killer cannot be a poor man.

11-16-2012 at 11:51:03

@ Peter regarding wealth of killer:

Well, he just didn’t afford the Luger, he owns it.

When I said not middle-class I didn’t mean to say poor.

“My” killer still owns some motorbike, at least.

11-16-2012 at 11:51:47

reading about the thought in the discussion on the age and social status of X I am wondering if the previous idea of Claires father (the pharmacist) has already been ruled out to the end. He would make a perfect match with the lastest descriptions above plus potentially had a motive and the knowledge where SM was going to be plus the “wall of silence” would fit to the comments by the family that this case “will probably never solved”.

By the way, there was a case years ago in a austrian skking area where a amarican young boarder was missed for years until he was found when the snow melted. Theories say that he was run over by a ski piste preperation machine and that the locals knew and still know who the responsible person might be. However there is until today a wall of silence. No cooperation of locals with the police whatsoever.

11-16-2012 at 12:15:08

@Alexander Cartier

Not one of these beauties then?

11-16-2012 at 12:29:59

or perhaps a Triumph Bonneville . . was it named after the Haute-Savoie commune?
My own brothers Mr. Mid-Lifer mode of transport

11-16-2012 at 13:43:54

last retro bike recommendation from me.

Royal Enfield Bullet Indian

strap line “It fires like a gun”

Comes in a lovely pale blue

11-16-2012 at 13:51:26


If you (like me) go for the Motorbiker = Killer X
Then you have to take this a step further

The step being: SM was the only target

This is because the motorbiker/parallel route only makes sense from a ‘follow SM/ambush SM’ perspective. And a next obligaory step is that X somehow knew about SM going to Martinet(!)

The only thing X didn’t know is at what TIM SM wanted to go there. So, because X didn’t want to go to Martinet and wait endlessly if SM would arrive he decided to:

– Wait at SM’s home
– See SM go out on his racebike
– Follow SM
– See that SM indeed took the ‘Arnand’ route
– Only then X was ‘sure’ of the ‘Martinet’ route
– And on NOW he proceded with his ‘ambush’ plan by speeding on the parallel route to Martinet … etc. etc.

11-16-2012 at 13:54:56

What I’m doing here is to ‘reverse engineer’ the killing by assuming some details for facts.

The BIG ‘assume’ is the ONF/motorbiker encounter.

I need to know the details to see if it holds up/fits the timeline

(if not, I’m back at zero once again *sigh*)

11-16-2012 at 13:56:49


“Noone” is ruled out so far. The probability for a certain suspect goes however up and down, all the time.

11-16-2012 at 14:00:42


Well, no matter what, you have at least shown, how and why the RAF man could have seen the ONF car + motorbike, while nobody else saw them.

11-16-2012 at 14:25:06


You can easily get an Airsoft Luger:

But that is far removed from shooting people for real with a real Luger. It is interesting though that the Airsoft Luger is so popular.

X would still have had to practice with his real gun. Now where and when did he do this?

11-16-2012 at 16:02:02

@ M

The motorcyclist’s route also makes sense if he had arranged to meet the AH family at the Martinet, or if he knew that somebody else had arranged such a meeting. Likewise, taking along three full magazines makes sense if you are planning to kill an entire family. Killing a random cyclist as collateral damage makes sense if you have planned to kill an entire family, and you have to do it right there, right then, because there won’t be another opportunity.

By contrast, your proposed plan of killing SM is extremely ingenious, but hardly practical. If killer X merely wanted to kill SM, why didn’t he simply ring his doorbell and shoot him on his doorstep? (If he wanted to be elaborate about it, he could have used a silencer and/or kept a paper bag around his gun to avoid leaving spent casings on the scene.) Alternatively, why didn’t he simply follow SM at a distance on his motorbike and wait for an opportune moment to kill him? There must have been a thousand easier, less risky ways of killing SM. Why choose this one, which left so much to chance (e. g., the killer could not have been sure that the Martinet lay-by would have been empty when SM arrived)?

11-16-2012 at 16:20:55

@ Peter
In the light of your comment, I am thinking about why – bearing in mind the extremely crowded moment, there could have been many more people round the corner – X decided to kill at this very moment. And the only explanation – apart from the nutter, obviously – I can think of as pausible is that X needed to eliminate both SM and AH before they could exchange something. Again we´ve two possibilities:

a) SM or AH had something with them, and X took it
b) SM and AH wanted to exchange information and X prevented that

which, I apologize, does not bring us much forward

11-16-2012 at 16:30:20


All valid questions

If SM was ‘killed on his doorstep’ it would have been obvious he was the target.

But killing him at Martinet makes it look more like a ‘nutter’ case

Yup, I know … the AH’s … who knows that was ‘lucky’ for killer X to make it look even more like a ‘nutter’ case or divert it towards the AH’s

The fact that I prefer SM to be the target is that it feels less ‘loose’

Of SM we know he wanted to do that route, but of the AH’s that is not so clear. So an ‘ambush’ on the AH’s is not evident.

If you want to go for AH as target, then I think we must go more in the direction of a ‘meeting’. The AH’s were at Martinet to ‘meet’ somebody.

That is a possibility, but WHO?? And why on earth that remote spot and more so WHY the ‘happy family pictures’? because they sure indicate that at least AH was not expecting trouble from this ‘meeting’ … which points to a ‘trusted by AH’ person if it were a ‘meeting’

Point is, with AH as target I have MORE open questions than with SM as target:)

11-16-2012 at 16:34:15


First ‘open question’ … WHY was AH not killed in the UK (on *his* doorstep;)?

11-16-2012 at 16:39:47


That thought has crossed many minds here (and also mine)

Yup, that is possible, the ‘meeting’

But I will make it easy on EM (and you all). You ONLY need to solve the SM side of this to solve everything.

I always had the feeling that X waited for SM to arrive. SM’s arrival ‘triggered’ the shooting and that is what EM in the end also shared (more or less)

So, solve the SM=target thingy, and you solve the case (because the motive will lead to AH if it was a ‘meeting’)

11-16-2012 at 16:55:53

@Sophia : re: Also, I hope that people realize that the WEAPON USED was inconsequential! MANY WEAPONS are available on the black market and can be used by anyone to commit any type of crime. Unless the ACTUAL GUN is obtained by law enforcement, it is doubtful that investigators can track the weapon…many guns exist that also use various types of ammunition.
Following that (ammo) track is only a SMALL PART of an investigation.

I’ve read with great interest this comment of yours. You told us in your 2nd comment that you worked for two law enforcement agencies and federal investigators as well as for Search and Rescue. This shows me that you know firearms and therefore you know what you are talking about.

Us discussing the Luger is despite that no French or British investigator has yet confirmed that it was a Luger that was used in this killing. French Prosecutor Eric Maillaud said it was an old ‘Luger type’ firearm which was used.

Thank you for your comment.

11-16-2012 at 16:58:35

@M : re: Why was Saad Al-Hilli not killed on his doorstep?

It could be that it was decided that there was no choice but to kill him only once he had arrived in France.

Or, it could be that France was chosen because it was thought that it would be easier to kill someone in France than in the U.K. The reasons for such thought I won’t go into.

11-16-2012 at 17:17:54

@ Marilyn
you´re pointing exactly in my direction. AH was not killed before, because X wanted something (not neceesarily information, maybe something tangible) from him and he would have to search for it and probably not finding it. If there was such thing as a meeting to exchange that “something”, this very moment was the only possibility to get it with reasonable effort and X took the chance. @ M: and yes you´re right: if we solve SM´s role in this we solve the whole case

11-16-2012 at 17:29:53

@ Marilyn, RE: “Can you help me with this? The guy in the article I am working on now had 2 9mm Glocks and a Smith and Wesson .357 magnum. Now what are those? Pistols? Please,if you can help me with this.”

Glock is a very well known manufacturer of semi-automatic hand guns. I own several because they are probably the most reliable semi-autos on the market and reasonably priced. Many police agencies use this in the U.S. as their sidearms. The 9mm is a popular caliber, but recently the .40 is becoming more common because it is a more powerful round and still can carry sufficient ammunition. With the 9mm I have, I have an extended clip that allows the weapon to hold a total of 34 bullets. Many people do not like the glock because it has many more plastic/polymer materials than some other guns, although now it is becoming more readily accepted that polymer is as good as metal, and has the advantage of being light weight. My only complaint about glocks is that there is no real safety mechanism. To be legal in the U.S. all guns have to have a safety, so glock gets around this by using a “trigger safety”, which is really no safety device at all. Instead of having a switch that mechanically prevents the device from firing when safety is on, glock has an extra piece on the trigger that must be depressed before the gun will fire. This prevents accidental discharges in some cases, as in when an officer is wearing it at his side holster, but it does absolutely no good in preventing a child who picks up the gun from firing it accidentally. Without getting into a philosophical argument about the merits of a trigger safety, I’ll just tell you that my glock is always loaded and in my house with 6 kids, but in a safe on my nightstand that only opens when a combination is entered properly.

Now, the S&W 357 mag, now THAT is a gun. This gun is a revolver (think cowboy movies). Interestingly the 357 mag will also fire a 38 round, which is shorter and has less gunpowder than the 357 mag.

I’m really sorry for such a long post!

11-16-2012 at 17:36:54

@rva524 re: Glocks and magnums

Vow!This is great. Thank you so much for the details. I now know that the killer meant business because of the 357 magnum and it will help me greatly when I eventually get down to writing my article. He had licenses for the firearms by the way and this despite that he was under psychiatric care.

If you have a moment do read what Sophia commented yesterday evening. She told us that she with two law enforcement agencies and federal investigators, so I am sure you will find what she wrote interesting and would like to comment about it.

11-16-2012 at 17:57:45


It could be, it could be, it … 🙂

When I want a sunny summerholiday I go to the south of France. If somebody suggests ‘Ireland’ because ‘it can be nice overthere too’ … yeah sure:P

Of course, you always can say ‘it could be’ but let’s be pratical and start with the MOST probable of things, not the LEAST probable:)

11-16-2012 at 17:58:02

I still opt for the lunatic killer.

However something has just occured to me. I have wondered why X suddenly left the scene just before BM arrived (i.e. not killing ZH). Now maybe X left when he had what he wanted (I still need a lot of convincing).

Is your life really that dangerous? I would never feel safe if I had to rely on being armed to the teeth all the time.

11-16-2012 at 18:08:13

Take or leave the leaked report. But it states that SM, SAH and ZAH were standing together when the shooting starts. All three are probably shot at this time. SAH makes it back to the car, ZAH doesn’t, the car then reverses dragging SM with it.
Would ZAH be at a ‘secret’ meeting with her father where something is exchanged?
Would someone wanting to kill SM also be willing to kill bystanders? Easier just to run SM off the road when on his bike, then finish him off and throw the body in the river.

11-16-2012 at 19:13:25

@ Max, Peter, Marilyn – “Why was Saad al-Hilli not killed on his doorstep?”

I think the killings took place at Martinet because it was the killer’s place.

The killer did not come for the victims, the victims came for him.

11-16-2012 at 19:29:36

@Alexander : re: victims came for him

You make a good point here, Alex.

11-16-2012 at 19:30:51

You know what I heard today? The area where the shooting took place does not fall under Chevaline administration but that of Doussard. To speak of the Chevaline killing is therefore incorrect.

11-16-2012 at 19:49:26


Chevaline is however catchier and more full of meaning.

11-16-2012 at 20:07:08

@ Pete.R – I am a criminal defense attorney these days and before that, a federal prosecutor doing only organized crime cases, so the short answer is yes, it is necessary and the risk of harm coming from the misuse of guns (which is mitigated by educating everyone in the household about them) is outweighed by the danger of the individuals who are released from prison and may have a grudge to settle.

11-16-2012 at 20:14:11

@ AC-“I think the killings took place at Martinet because it was the killer’s place.”

I tend to agree with you that the killer has intimate knowledge of the area. On top of that, statistically most serial killers begin their killing careers within 10 miles of their homes. They branch out further with each killing. I am sure the police know this and hopefully checking into the gun nuts in the area and cross referencing it with gun ownership records. That would really only be applicable if we are going with the “some nutter” theory. It would have absolutely no bearing on an organized hit or assasination for obvious reasons.

If we are going with the “some nutter” theory, then I don’t know how to fit in the info regarding the homicide at the truck stop that Marilyn and Peter discussed some weeks ago (can’t remember the guy’s name).

11-16-2012 at 20:19:04

Does anyone (most probably Peter) know what the Swiss law and French (Marilyn) law require in terms of firearm registration. What I am looking for is specifics of the requirements. Do they require serial numbers along with names of owners, and then do they require a spent casing for each gun. In the States, every new gun sold must have a spent casing that the manufacturer is required to keep permanently and there is talk of developing a database, which would be sort of a fingerprint for every individual gun…

11-16-2012 at 21:18:20


You know thay they actually live pretty close in England, about 60 km as the birds fly, Surrey and Surrex respectively?

That is like traveling over the channel to fetch water, if you don’t mind the expression. I think the reason for that is hard to explain. Mr Brett travelled back and forth.

11-16-2012 at 21:22:22

@RiffRaff Sorry…meant Sussex…. obviously (no edit button)

11-16-2012 at 21:26:21


Haven’t read it all, but I think this site can answer your questions:

Lots of firearms in France!

11-16-2012 at 21:58:41

@ RiffRaff regarding your scenario:

I don’t believe in it, I trust William Brett Martin and I believe the al-Hillis knew nothing of danger, proven by the Arnand pictures.

But this is just a personal standpoint, and this blog (thanks to Marilyn) is here to discuss.

And I like discussing.

Why did the killer not kill William Brett Martin?

11-16-2012 at 21:59:10

RiffRaff had a problem getting a comment through, but it is ok now. It even came through several times!

11-16-2012 at 22:11:03


RiffRaff’s last comment just disappeared from the site ?!

11-16-2012 at 22:20:18

@Lars and @All : RiffRaff’s comment disappearing.

I just checked Lars and so it has. Gremlins!!!!!!!!!! What else? He emailed it to me when he was having a problem positing it, so here it is again and let us see if it will remain here now.

after the latest additions I have a new scenario what happened:

1. AH has “something” for BM. Because BM is in France already AH has to go to France to give it to him in a most unsuspious way – a holiday with the family.
2. AH does not know BM by face, neither does BM. Its the time and the place that has been set. AH shall leave the “something” at lay-by. BM will pick it up a minute later. Nobody will see each other nor be able to identify each other.
3. First problem occurs when SM overtakes BM and SM is too early at the place where AH only wants to leave the “something”. He can´t because SM is there.
4. Killer X knows of the plan and is after the “something” and misfortunately takes SM for BM. He starts firing from the distance realising that (with Zainab outside) he might have to kill more than the two targets.
5. After approaching the scene he picks-up the “something” and suddenly realizes that he killed the wrong biker bringing him to rage and releasing more bullets to SM (overkill). SUddenly run put of ammo by that, he realizes that the real BM might approach every minute and that Zainab is still alive (before he was focussed on getting the “something”) now hitting he as hard as he can and leaving – not a second too early from his point of view.
6. BM aproaches the scene and realizes that the original plan went wrong. He looks after Zainab and then hastily he looks after the “something” and assumes it in the car, hence he is breaking the window and looking inside.
7. Now he realises that the “something” is not there and he is in double trouble a) by the killer X that mistook SM for him and b) by having to give a plausible story to the police and that – finally – puts stress even on a RAF pilot making him leave the scene in a hurry and running into PD asking for help not finding the right words.
8. Resume: BM is the key to “something”, he is British, he was in France, hence is the reason to go to France for Al-Hilli.

@M: Thanks to your exact timeline it came to my mind that the calm story BM is telling us about what happened must be a lie!

feedback on this appreciated

11-16-2012 at 22:29:00

@Pete.R and @rva524 re: French gun laws

Pete thanks for this site. After a brief glance at this I must already say that I do not believe all of the statistics. I can not believe that there are 19 million firearms in private hands in this country! But, Pete, I am bookmarking this site as it is going to come in very very handy in my crime writing.

RVA you will find what you need to know on the site Pete mentions. Look under Gun Regulation and then under Gun Owner Licensing. I can tell you that about 10 years ago my personal circumstances made me think that I ought to get a gun. I asked a hunter I knew (he has since died) about the requirements for a gun licence. He told me that the police would never give me one: I was a woman, could not shoot, and I really had no real reason to have a gun. So I dropped the idea and equipped myself with a pot of pepper instead …

11-16-2012 at 22:31:20

@Lars : re: closeness of Surrey and Sussex

You are right, Lars. Travelling from France to the UK is also no big deal anymore. With the Eurostar it takes as little as 2 hrs.

11-16-2012 at 22:36:36

@RiffRaff re: your scenario

Your scenario is plausible, but as Alexander pointed out why did the killer not kill BM too. We are also not in a position to say that BM’s story is not true. Oh, we’ve discussed it thoroughly these past weeks and we’ve changed our minds often. M for example went over the BM TV interview over and over again for clarity. I think that BM must be so ‘off’ France now that he is probably going to sell his house in Upper Savoy. I know if what happened to him had happened to me, I would.

11-16-2012 at 22:37:37

@rva524 : re: truck stop shooting

The name was Xavier Baligant.

11-16-2012 at 22:44:29

OK – I am about to turn into a serial killer again, so I will be off until tomorrow. If you do not believe the serial killer story, ask my neighbours – well, those who are still alive.

11-16-2012 at 23:26:04

@ Marilyn, Pete.R., rva524 regarding gun ownership in France:

C’mon, 19 Mio. out of 65 Mio. residents overall? The babies, too? You must be kiddin’…

I never wanted a gun.

I’m even against ownership in guns, or to be more clear, in ammo.

But now when I know I had the chance to by a $ 200 Drulov legally in 1991 when I was the first time in France I consider it a chance missed.

11-16-2012 at 23:29:11


Maybe we missed a possible perpetrator there? A toddler on the loose !

11-16-2012 at 23:37:02

@ Marilyn @ M Re: Scenario

of course we are in the position to question BM´s version of things. As M´s exact timeline shows – with all uncertainties cum grano salis – BM didn´t have the time to do al the things in the quiet order he says in the interview and then – contradiction to his previous calmness – as it has been pointed out by many of you before – get on his bike in panic going downhill. It simply stinks.
To my opinion there must be an additional piece of the story why he got in panic, and that bit we know from PD so I consider it fact.

11-16-2012 at 23:43:34

@Lars Re: Sussex vs. Surrey

You are right, these are very close by, BUT BM was in France at the time. And if something of importance had to be given to him in short time – remember the hasty start of the al-hilli vacation – either BM had to come back or – depending on the final adressee of that “something” – AH had to bring it to France.

@ proof of pictures:
I am absolutly sure that the familiy knew nothing of the stuff going on. hence relaxed pictures. AH himself? well I don´t know but maybe he was good at smiling for pictures (my brother is e.g. he´ll smile with a knife in his back and you won´t recognise)

11-17-2012 at 00:07:07

Given the current information vacuum my thoughts have turned to the question of how SM and CS met. I’m not sure if this has been discussed before, apologies if it has.

SM and CS are not the same age, nor of the same social class and don’t live in truly close proximity to one another. So how did their lives cross to the extent that they could become romantically involved?

My personal theory is that they met through the charitable organisation La Sapaudia and most probably through the Sapuadia – Monoikos bike ride.

Both TS and his son LS, are keen cyclists and post on cycling forums asking for advice and information. So why not CS is too.

TS can be seen in this photo (middle, white jersey), promoting a memorial ride for Florent Lenisca who, unfortunately, was shot and killed together with one of his sons – in this case the alleged killer, Lenisca’s psychologically disturbed eldest son, was apprehended quickly.

TS is also very involved in La Sapaudia-Monoikos activities including riding the event in 2011 . TS probably took part in 2012 too.

TS and CS both supported the hand-cyclist Thomas Papay during his South American coast-to-coast journey. Thomas Papy also completed La Sapaudia-Mnoikos in 2011.

Since its inception in 2010, La Sapaudia has been supported by Areva Cezus Ugine. So it should not be completely ridiculous to suppose keen cyclists form Cezus Ugine, such as SM, would have taken part in the 2010 event and possibly in subsequent editions too.

Is there any other evidence to support the idea SM was involved with La Sapaudia?

Looking at internet social networks, the only reference I have been able to find to the death of SM was on the FB page of Jean-b Narbon. Narbon posted on 6th of September “Une pensée pour toi Sylvain et toute ta famille.”

Jean-b Narbon follows La Sapaudia on FB.

The only person to share Narbon’s message was Jimjim Schmitz. Jimjim Schmitz appears to be the unofficial photographic chronicler for La Sapaudia.

So if you want to find a picture of SM, perhaps he is featured in one of the hundreds of pictures on Jimjim’s FB page or one of the hundreds of photo’s on the official La Sapaudia web site.

11-17-2012 at 00:50:12

I have once asked “What ticked the killer off”?

In contrary to Max’ “baguette scenario” there was no communication whatsoever between the al-Hillis and the killer before the shooting, no road rage, no discussion, nothing.

In fact, if Sylvain Mollier would have never arrived there the al-Hillis would not have died.

But when he arrived it didn’t matter how many casualties would die with him.

For the killer was there for him.

He killed Sylvain Mollier and every witness to his crime.

He’s an older man, local and he did not kill Xavier Baligant.

He won’t kill again and he won’t come forward till he’s found.

11-17-2012 at 05:27:06

@Alexander Regarding: Age & Beauty
“Non, no, we can’t have Petraeus also, involved in this case, one womanizer is more than enough. (I actually don’t understand that case either. I read somewhere that his fellow general (what’s his name?) emailed his mistress 3000 (!) pages. Did he mail her Anna Karenina or the Bible? 1 page at a time?)
@ Lars:
“It was General Allen, soon to be NATO commander in Europe. It was between 20000 and 30000 e-mails (why can’t one have this number correct, I know my inbox’ counts down to the last number, why estimate such a highly technical fact) and it came over in newspapers as “between 20000 and 30000 pages”. Sure, if you’re a journalist and you haven’t done your homework, then one e-mail = one page. They calculated around “40 mails per day”.”

Gen A. was emailing Mrs. K, and according to one version they were using email like instant messaging or txts, exchanging messages rapidly, which were described as phone sex (denied by Gen A.) and these printed out to tens of thousands of pages.

Meanwhile, Mrs. B. was using Gen. P’s email account (which she had access to, because they were using the drafts folder to exchange their own sexy messages) to harass or threaten Mrs. K. and that’s what alerted the shirtless FBI agent H., friend of Mrs. K., that somebody might have hacked the email of Gen. P., Director of the CIA (which didn’t know any of this was going on under their own noses. They should have their spy licenses suspended by the “Intelligence [ha ha] Community.”)

Meanwhile 2, they’ve released the shirtless pic of Agent H. It was a joke of him posing between two shirtless mannequins, sent prior to the current mess-up.

Meanwhile 3, Lindsay discovered, for the first time on live TV, that she has a previously unknown step-sister, which was revealed on a totally separate TV show where Lindsay’s pops and new step-sister appeared. And Justin and Selena are or aren’t all broken up. The Los Angeles times wants to know, “The two, whose breakup was confirmed by several media outlets earlier this month, have been spotted together more than once in Los Angeles over the last couple of days. What’s that all about?!”

Meanwhile 4, turmoil in the Middle East. We’re in for 3 weeks of escalating dead-baby-body-counts, weeping relatives, faked pics, maximum propaganda and spin, wringing of hands, until everyone tires of it and both sides appear with Prez O. in Rose Garden where he presents each side with some billions of dollars to stop the killing for a few years. Last time, it was 7 billion each. With inflation 50 or 100 billion should work now. He could hand each side one of those giant checks like they do at surfing contests.

11-17-2012 at 05:44:42

@Marilyn @NR : re: communities not daring to speak

I posted a link a while back on CM to a French family names website which has a distribution map ranking family names according to departements.

Mollier is not particularly widely distributed throughout France, but there are concentrations in Savoie .. and Corsica!

I tend to agree SM is the key to this.

11-17-2012 at 06:50:20

@ RiffRaff @ Marilyn @ M Re: Scenario

I like the scenario of BM meeting to exchange something, a device, usb stick, cash money, maybe a safe deposit key or Swiss account numbers. It explains him being in a panic or even shock, maybe recognizing some of the SAHs or SM, plus realizing he was the intended victim, plus whatever-it-was is now lost.

11-17-2012 at 07:32:42

Lars @Alexander Regarding: Equipment

“If you take a look at these weapon collectors sites you will find that also young collectors actually find this gun cool, very very cool. So you just have to be that kind of guy, a lot into weapons.”

Very, very cool is important. Even with older persons – the ones who ride cool motorbikes and 5,000 Euro racing bikes.

@ J Cave “My own Grandpa Valentine rode his motor-bike into his Eighties until he broke his leg.”

One time we had to go bail out of jail my friend’s grandpa who was arrested for fighting in the pub (he won). He was 90 years old, drank vodka and homemade and smoked. Our hero for a time. My own grandpa died not much younger after pounding in fence posts all morning.
@ J Cave
“People .. . . Do you think that one could ‘practice’ speedy gun-use with a replica? or even virtually on a computer game. Is it that realistic?”

You can practice rapid fire, accuracy and shooting at multiple moving targets. Don’t know if latest game hardware provides any recoil or changeable magazines. I think you’d still need some practice with a real gun.

On changing clips, the sound witnesses said 30 seconds of shots, but people are bad at estimating time. Even so that’s over one second per shot if they’re evenly spaced, so there’s plenty of time to change clips without much expertise.

11-17-2012 at 07:45:23

I put this at Craig Murray about the scammer arrested in England for trying to use SAH’s bank accounts.

“On the alleged scammer. He tried to access al Hilli’s account Sept 6″

Did the media even release the names of the victims by the next day? A scammer would certainly want to use banking info fast after a death, before accounts are closed. So if scammer “just happens” to have possession of SAH’s info, he goes, “Oh, thank my lucky stars. I already have his numbers, and here he goes getting himself most spectacularly killed, so I don’t need to wait forty years.”

11-17-2012 at 08:58:08

Maybe it was a savage, but entirely random act of murder.

BBC today:

@Sophie “There was no DNA at the scene. So perhaps the weapon, as the only real clue, becomes even more significant. ”

Does EM now confirm the leaked forensic/ballistic report?

EM 99% sure that SM not a target. I wonder what his % for SAH and family being targets is?

11-17-2012 at 09:15:39

When I last checked it was Saturday, November 17 and Paris is under fog again this morning. It’s Jack the Ripper weather. I am sharpening my knives.

@All : Re: your night comments.

NR – Was Saad Al-Hilli perhaps in touch with Mr. Nigeria John about moving money across borders? Saad Al-Hill could have come across Mr. Nigeria John on the internet and contacted him, and he, true to his modus operandi, got Saad Al-Hilli’s bank details out of him. So when the latter was shot to death in France, Mr. Nigeria John acted like his tail was on fire to get to the money he knew Saad Al-Hilli had.

About Patraeus’s betrayal of his wife, children, grandchildren, and country: I’ve already said ‘Americans grow up!’ and I say again now.

As for the Israeli/Palestinian situation. An American commentator said on France’s France24 news network there will only be a solution when the two sides are face to face and beat the living hell out of one another. And that, he added, will never happen.

Mochyn69 – So if the Molliers gather not only in Savoie but also in Corsica, then it is a family who understands the meaning of the word omerta.

Alexander – I am glad that you are backing me up that there is no way there are 15 million gun holders in France. When I have time I will check this info though.

11-17-2012 at 09:26:46

@ Pete.R. From the BBC story above: “Mr Maillaud added: “Without doubt we are looking for someone who has killed before, someone who puts no value on human life.”

These days, I would totally dispute that statement. He is thinking of a different era or it is much different in France. In the US they just foiled a plot where someone was planning to duplicate the Colorado movie theater killings at the opening of the Twilight movie, for just one example.

11-17-2012 at 09:31:26


The is from today’s BCC report:

EM “When I have the motive, then I’ll have my suspect. But for now, all lines of inquiry remain open.”

Can you find what EM said in French and translate it?

To me this comes across as I have a suspect in mind but no motive. Just knowing the motive for a crime i.e. money does, not lead direct to an individual suspect. But maybe it is all in the translation.

11-17-2012 at 09:49:09


I think it would be odd indeed if this was X’s first crime. I believe X has killed or carried out extremely violent acts before. Maybe in the course of his occupational. Remember he intended to escape and not go down fighting so to speak. Yes in different parts of the world crime is very different, as is the value put on life and the access and legality of guns. Believe it or not incidents of this kind and spree killings in general are still rare in Europe. It is what makes this crime unusual, as it could still be a hit man, a serial killer, a grudge, political assassination etc etc, but most likely to my mind a psychotic individual.

11-17-2012 at 09:53:14

@Pete.R and @All

It seems he spoke exclusively to the BBC’s Christian Fraser. Maybe it was by phone. Fraser would therefore be the only one who knew what he said in French, if he spoke in French and not directly in English. The BBC’s correspondents do not usually make translation errors, so we can take that what the BBC’s reporting was what the prosecutor said. By the way the prosecutor said their inquiry spans 7 countries, but names just 6. Fraser did not, by the look of it, catch on on this.

Here I copy and paste from the BBC.

French Alps shooting: Prosecutor still baffled by motive for al-Hilli murders
By Christian Fraser
BBC News, Annecy
The prosecutor probing the deaths of three members of a British family in the French Alps has told the BBC there is “still no motive” for the killings.
Eric Maillaud said all lines of inquiry into the deaths of Saad al-Hilli, his wife Iqbal, her mother Suhaila al-Allaf and a French cyclist “remain open“.
Sixty officers from the gendarmerie are working on the Annecy inquiry, which spans seven countries.
Mr al-Hilli’s daughters Zainab and Zeena survived September’s shooting.
Two months on, the Gendarme continue the hunt for answers.
Mr Maillaud told me: “We are further than day one, but still no motive.”
When I have the motive, then I’ll have my suspect. But for now, all lines of inquiry remain open.”
The gendarmerie officers are working around the clock on the case, but it is a hugely complex inquiry.
It spans seven countries; France, Switzerland, Italy, the UK, Sweden and Spain, where Mr al-Hilli’s father had an apartment.
Statements have been taken from about 800 witnesses, thousands of hours of film and images from the toll booths and roadside cameras have to be analysed, and of course, there is the forensic evidence.
Mr Maillaud added: “Without doubt we are looking for someone who has killed before, someone who puts no value on human life.
“We are not sure whether that means it’s a professional hit but if it was done on a contract it was very badly done.”
There is also a working hypothesis on how the events unfolded, though Mr Maillaud would confirm only scant detail.
It appears Zainab and her father were outside the car when the gunman approached, firing, from the forest trail above them.
The French cyclist Sylvain Mollier was already at the lay-by or at least close by.
In the panic Mr al-Hilli bolted for his car. He reversed in a u-turn at such speed that
perhaps he ran over the fallen Mr Mollier.
The car slammed into the bank at the rear of the lay-by where the axle became stuck.
And the rest we know. Saad, his wife Iqbal, his mother-in-law Suhaila and the cyclist were shot at least twice at close range.
The police have ruled out the idea that Mr Mollier was the target.
“We are 99% sure he was nothing to do with it,” Mr Maillaud said.
‘Unbalanced people’
Police continue to investigate Mr al-Hilli’s background. There is a reported dispute with his brother over their father’s inheritance and links to Iraq.
But the bank account traced in Geneva is not thought to be significant, nor indeed the Tazer gun reportedly found at Mr al-Hilli’s home in Claygate, Surrey.
If there was a secret in the engineer’s background it remains just that, which is why another theory is now being advanced.
Mr Maillaud said: “We are looking for unbalanced people – capable of extreme violence.
“People who have access to weapons; hunters, collectors, shooting club members, some of whom could have had psychiatric problems.
“We are searching a huge area stretching into Switzerland and Italy – and that includes a large number of people.”
There was no DNA at the scene. So perhaps the weapon, as the only real clue, becomes even more significant.
The shell casings suggest the handgun was an antique. One report said the forensic teams had found tiny shards of the weapons handle.
Mr Maillaud refused to comment on the gun. But it is thought to be a Luger, an early model issued to the Swiss army before the First World War, a collector’s item.
Alain Fracheboud, a gun shop owner in Geneva, told me that if it is proved to be the weapon used it is “a bizarre choice for a professional killer”.
He said: “The clip only holds eight rounds which would mean the gunman had to reload at least twice.
“It’s quite an accurate weapon from 50m but a trained killer would be more likely to use something like [a Glock], a weapon that holds 15 rounds. Far more effective, cheaper, more readily available.”
Certainly the Luger is an unusual item but more common to Switzerland where ex-army personnel were allowed to retain their weapons.
‘Owe them answers’
Mr Maillaud, like any prosecutor, has his professional pride. He is angry at the leaks, and at some of the reporting.
He is sympathetic to the frustrations of the family: “It is the first obligation of any inquiry to eliminate the immediate family,” he says.
His main responsibility is to the daughters who survived. Clearly that is a responsibility that weighs heavy.
“We owe them the answers, that is why I am careful what we reveal,” Mr Maillaud says.
“I don’t want to have to tell these two girls, who have suffered so much, that we failed in our investigations because we talked too much.”
The al-Hilli’s loved Annecy and it is the last kind of place you would expect to encounter the deranged killer Mr Maillaud describes.
But two months on perhaps there is no other explanation. Maybe there was no motive.
Maybe it was a savage, but entirely random act of murder.

11-17-2012 at 09:54:17

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins
“NR – Was Saad Al-Hilli perhaps in touch with Mr. Nigeria John about moving money across borders?”

Or what if Mr. Nigeria John was part of a gang. He or his partners tricked the info out of SAH and one or two of the gang followed SAH to France and killed him. This was not what NJ expected, so he faints and falls to the floor in court when he realizes he’s mixed up in a big murder.

Marilyn, I think it was you who said scammer murders are common in Africa. Some other discussion said there was a case of a person tortured or murdered because criminals were convinced, wrongly, he knew where gold was hidden.

“Mochyn69 – So if the Molliers gather not only in Savoie but also in Corsica, then it is a family who understands the meaning of the word omerta.”

Has anyone considered that SM’s sons possibly blamed him for the break up of the marriage and might have instigated a murder, even if they didn’t have a direct hand. They could make some remark to friends who later tell them, “We’ve taken care of that problem for you.” Teenagers have an omerta all there own.

11-17-2012 at 09:58:03

@NR : re: Mr. Nigeria John. No, I wasn’t the one who said there were even murders in Africa because of scamming.

Read what I just commented on the BBC’s latest interview with Eric Maillaud.

11-17-2012 at 10:10:37

@ Marilyn re BBC: The missing country is Iraq, they’d mentioned that before. One I’ve not heard of was Italy. Did he include that because of hunting clubs or something more? Ah Ha! The Vatican bank. That would be a good place to hide Saddam’s money. They’ve been involved before in, I think, the BCCI bank scandal. Maybe the Pope’s butler did the murders after he peeked at the Pope’s papers and saw SAH controlled Saddam’s money, or was he in jail already and we can’t frame him?

EM says they’ve found nothing in SAH’s background to explain it. Then why the finger-search at Claygate, TV cameras inserted into walls, and the team from Paris plus high level people from the British embassy?

11-17-2012 at 10:18:46


There will be much to discuss again this weekend.

AFter Prosecutor Maillaud’s latest interview with the BBC it seems that Saad and Zainab were standing outside the BMW when the killer opened fired in their direction from the ‘forest’ and just at that moment Sylvain Mollier cycled up …

Must rush out … will be back later…

11-17-2012 at 10:46:20

@ NR
The interesting thing is that “Mr John” tried to defraud SAH both two weeks *before* his death and shortly *afterwards*. Having considered the matter at some length, I have come to the conclusion that this probably means that he had no idea who SAH really was, that he had merely purchased SAH’s account and/or CC data from a third party.
Although there are some sick people around who will trawl death notices for data to use in identity theft, no criminal in his right mind would have dared touch the account of somebody murdered in such spectacular circumstances. “Mr John” must be the world’s unluckiest scammer.

11-17-2012 at 11:07:57

@ all

So many people had so many reasons to kill SAH, he might as well have worn a bullseye painted onto his forehead: the inheritance dispute with his brother, trying to reclaim his father’s fortune back in Iraq, being an armchair jihadist and an Internet penpal of a known pakistani terrorist, trying to access a 20-million Liechtenstein trust fund that used to belong to Saddam Hussein, working in a sensitive defence-related industry …

The trouble is to pick the right motive, a motive that would have led to that fatal encounter with a killer who was most probably local to the area (as both the type of gun used and the smooth getaway suggest). In that regard, Sophia’s cryptic comments about people embezzling Saddam’s secret funds have given me some ideas. What if SAH had really tried to trace parts of Saddam’s hidden fortune in Switzerland? What if the money was no longer there, because either one of Saddam’s former money-launderers resident in Geneva or a bank employee had helped himself to those funds?

In my opinion, that would put somebody with a powerful motive on the scene, somebody fairly local whose expertise was financial crime rather than violent crime, and who therefore lacked the contacts that would have enabled him to purchase a modern gun on the black market. The AH family would have known that person by name, if not by sight, giving him a reason to kill not only SAH but the entire family (whilst not being too bothered about the youngest daughter, because she would have been to young to understand what was going on).

11-17-2012 at 13:10:10

@Y “when did they meet”

My guess in Grenoble, around 2008. They were both there then, the girlfrind for her pharmacist exam, and he for some continuing education, in technical subjects.

I don’t think that it is the girlsfriend’s father on that photo, doesn’t look like him, though he is involved Sapaudia.

11-17-2012 at 13:12:08


Why do you think that the killer is old? Just for the old gun?

11-17-2012 at 13:21:22

@Peter : re: Mr. Nigerian John unluckiest scammer

Or maybe the most stupid.

11-17-2012 at 13:23:57

@NR re: why the finger-search at Claygate

They were probably looking for something in Saad Al-Hilli’s background to explain the killings when they searched Claygate and found nothing. At least now we know in a roundabout way that the house at Claygate was just an ordinary family home and Saad Al-Hilli wasn’t up to anything there involving weaponry or nuclear bombs or Saddam’s money.

11-17-2012 at 13:25:42

@Peter : Mr. Nigerian John.

How do you know he tried to defraud Saad Al-Hilli two weeks ‘before’ the murders? Where did you read or hear this? If it had been discussed here then I must have missed it.

re: motif for killing Saad Al-Hilli.

I have changed my mind about this shooting so often and now after Prosecutor Maillaud’s BBC interview I am back with Alexander’s view: it was not an assassination but a ‘nutter’ killing. I do not however agree with Alexander that it was an ‘old’ killer. Aren’t such mass killer’s normally young, like in their 30s? Even Alexander at 40 would be too old to qualify.

11-17-2012 at 13:31:46

@ Marilyn

John was charged with obtaining a pre-paid credit card using the name Andrew Craig on 14 August to load with money from Hilli’s HSBC account. He is also accused of obtaining a Bank of America credit card in the name of Hilli between 6 September – the day after he was killed – and 11 September.

11-17-2012 at 13:31:55

Advice @Eric Maillaud

“that we failed in our investigations because we talked too much:”
I wonder if you can remember one case when that has happened?

Personally I can’t remember a single case, though there must be some, it is much easier to list cases when the police made a cock-up by telling to little, and it took years before important witnesses turned up.
I do remember one case when the police talked to much, but then they told witnesses, that were going to identify the killer in a line-up, what the police knew about the prime suspect. That is of course utterly stupid.

I advice you to talk with your international colleagues about their experiences of saying to little, or talk to much.

It is very unproffesional to say things like “…are 99% sure…” if you don’t know the motive, which you say you don’t, or are about to arrest someone in the coming days, which you obviously aren’t. Then it is simply impossible to be 99% sure about anything.

Regards, Lars

11-17-2012 at 13:36:45

@Lars and @Y re: where did Sylvain meet his companion?

We’re speaking of very small places here: a couple of hundred inhabitants. Therefore, they might have known one another by sight for some time having come across one another in … say the butcher’s, the baker’s or the furniture maker’s.

11-17-2012 at 13:43:48

@Peter : re: Andrew Craig on 14 August

I see what you mean by Mr.Nigerian John being the unluckiest scammer on earth. Imagine picking on a guy who gets shot to death with his family three weeks later.

Having just written that, I’m thinking … but no, I won’t write what I’m thinking because the U.K.s Metropolitan police and Scotland Yard are too efficient to have overlooked what I was going to suggest…

11-17-2012 at 13:45:42

@ Marilyn

Maybe the Met and Scotland Yard are smart enough to know what you mean, but I am not. Would you care to enlighten me?

11-17-2012 at 13:45:58

@Lars : Prosecutor Eric Maillaud just choked on a piece of local mutton he was having for lunch because one of his subordinates handed him your message.

11-17-2012 at 14:02:41

I am the sort of cyclist who gets off the bike and pushes it up the hills.
So Could anyone answer this for me?

Is it advisable to stop cycling mountain-style when pregnant??

11-17-2012 at 14:05:42

@Peter : re: Enlightenment

I was going to say that Mr. Nigerian John and his associates knew that Saad Al-Hilli had info about how to get hold of Saddam’s millions which were either in a Swiss or Luxembourg bank, and one of the associates had a rendezvous with Saad to collect bank details or credit cards in order to get to the money, but Saad had had second thoughts about the deal and wouldn’t play along anymore and so was shot dead. But then I decided that the U.K. Met and/or Scotland Yard would have found this out,so I didn’t write it.

11-17-2012 at 14:06:00


I think I have considered “every possible ” motive for killing the cyclist. You can divide them in three main groups:

1) A Mollier-family internal motive. I would say that the probability that you can find a motive in his closest family is very slim. Everything I have seen so far points actually in quite the opposite direction. I know that divorces can be very nasty affairs, and I have seen myself what it can do to people, but there can obviously also be pretty “happy” divorces. The kids also seem to be happy. If I would guess, I would actually guess that either his ex-wife left him or they both agreed to divorce.
The motive could of course involve more distant relatives and distant (in time) motives but that is very hard to find any evidence for.

2) Mollier-Schutz family motive. Oui has above presented possible reasons for discords between the families. I do not think, however, that it involved the girlfriend in any way. Nobody has so far found any hard evidence to support this motive.

3) Persons, outside these families, with a grudge towards the cyclist, it could be an ex-boyfriend (to the girl), ex-girlfriend, a husband whose wife had an affair with the cyclist, somebody that he had offended in some other way. The problem with these motives is, for us distant investigators, that they are very difficult to identify. You have to have very intimate knowledge of the cyclist’ s and his girlfriend’s life to know, if these persons exist at all, and how to identify them.

11-17-2012 at 14:20:26

@J Cave

Is it not always inadvisable to exert oneself when pregnant?
Riding in tough terrain is usually also very bumpy, which I guess is also not very appropriate.

11-17-2012 at 14:25:42


I think Ugine that has 5000-6000 inhabitants, and Albertville, where the girlfriend lived/lives (?), is of course much bigger.

They could of course have met in a lot of places. I have, however, so far not seen that she was in to cycling too.

11-17-2012 at 14:27:19

@ Lars regarding why I think the killer is old:

Yes, it’s only for the gun.

It’s just not cool.

I understood the argument that it could be the (young) killers only non registred weapon.

Then why not get a more modern unregistred weapon?

I understood the (young) killer might not have access to black market weapons.

Then the (young) killer has just hit a fortune (1500 – 3000 €) over Zainab’s head.

One reason to do this would be to not be aware of what the gun’s worth.

And to not be aware of the gun’s worth I don’t see in a young guy in the internet age.

The other reason would be he just didn’t care.

Everybody had to die up there no matter what.

For somebody to not let allow any witness to survive I see the killer in the principal victim’s age range.

In either victim’s case he’s in his 40s or 50s.

Well, at least, for me.

The weapon, like the place of the killing, do mean something personal to the killer.

To develop some meaning into the gun he has to be an older guy.

Well, at last, for me.

11-17-2012 at 14:33:43

I have recently moved to a very small ancient UKvillage of 800 souls.
My new next door neighbour can recite the geneaology, marital status, previous romantic relations, education, employment and grannies shoe size of everybody from four villages away backalong a hundred years.
Her divorced husband and her three sons light up like beacons if a good-looking woman or girl comes anywhere within twenty miles of the place.

This is what happens in ‘The Sticks’.
Everybody knows who everybody is.

11-17-2012 at 14:42:20

@J Cave re: The Sticks and being pregnant

Even when one has lived for some years in the same area, even in Paris, one is known.

Congratulations and when’s the baby due? Madonna gave concerts when she was heavily pregnant, so I presume a bike ride won’t do any harm.

11-17-2012 at 14:43:13


I understand your arguments.

I also have some problems with the way the perpetrator handled his expensive gun. At the some time I accept that my experience of guns is as nonexistent as yours. So I also feel that I have trust the expertise of our more experienced commentators in that field here.

Actually things that give a perpetrator away, are often things they do “unconsciously”, out of habit. Things that seem illogical to a “normal” person in such a situation. In this case, e.g. , that the perpetrator had been careful with his gun even though his situation was precarious.

11-17-2012 at 14:48:16

@ Marilyn

I would rule “Mr A. David John” out, as a small-time crook who planned to help himself to a few hundred pounds of SAHs money, and was taken totally by surprise when his little fraud, which the police would hardly bother to investigate under normal circumstances, put him centre-stage in a major murder inquiry.

However, that scammer must have got hold of SAH’s account and CC information somehow. I consider it likely that he bought those data on one of the BBS where such information is traded, and that the vendor obtained that information by phishing / pharming / hacking SAH’s PC. The question is: What else did the hacker find on SAH’s PC? SAH has been described as a man who digitized every scrap of his life and stored it on his computers. If his PC had been compromised, the hacker could have found all kinds of information there, possibly including information on SAH’s plans to “liberate” 20 million Euros from a Liechtenstein trust that originally belonged to Saddam Hussein.

That information could have put SAH’s life in grave and immediate danger. I have already mentioned the story of my old friend who nearly got himself killed over spurious information purportedly containing the key to Ferdinand Marcos’ “hidden gold treasure.” When I worked in private banking, I came across stories like this all the time – the rich are just as gullible, often even more so, than the poor, and generally greedier – and I can tell you from personal experience that the merest whiff of such a story entices all kinds of rats out of the gutters. Even if there is not a shred of truth to the story – which in 99.999 % of cases there isn’t – the lives of people following the trail of some ex-dictator’s “missing millions” suddenly turn into a carnival populated by bizarre and often highly dangerous people who want a slice of the pie (or even the whole pie for themselves).

11-17-2012 at 15:30:55

I like Eric Maillaud saying (and the BBC translating)

““It is the first obligation of any inquiry to eliminate the immediate family”

when they forgot to add “…as suspects”.


11-17-2012 at 15:33:06


There is a very good full profile picture of TS with name attribution in Le Dauphine on 25/05/2012 – unfortunately it is behind their paywall or I would link to it. It gives you a good idea of his height, build and posture. If either of the two images I linked to are not TS, I’d be very surprised.

In the second image I linked to, TS can also be identified by the bike he is riding. In the thread started by TS on Velo101 he describes his bike as being a LOOK 586 SL frame with Mavic R-sys-sl wheels and Shimano Dura Ace triple groupset. (All in all about €5000 worth of bike.)

So, in the picture I linked to the frame is easy to identify positively, the wheels less so. One can just make out the three chainrings of the triple groupset. The groupset can be identified as Shimano by the fact that the cable run for the gears emerges from from the hood of the brake leavers; the other two most popular brands, Campagnolo and SRAM, have cable that runs more elegantly under the handlebar tape.

Of course I am making a huge leap to connect SM and CS through La Sapaudia, just a guess really. Wouldn’t it be great to be an insider on the investigation having so much more information available.

11-17-2012 at 15:42:03


Sorry, I actually only meant the first picture, the second I find harder to say something definite about. There a pictures of the father from the Pharmacy as well as a picture from Le Dauphine (?) that somebody posted above. I don’t think that the person on the first photo looks like him.

11-17-2012 at 15:47:43


Yes, but they have only eliminated one family so far, we still have to wait until the gendarmerie also eliminates the other family. 🙂

11-17-2012 at 15:55:07

@Y “Wouldn’t it be great to be an insider on the investigation having so much more information available.”

Yes of course. Much of the information that we have been able to piece together with hard work over the months, should have been readily available to the gendarmerie after a couple of days. Probably would at least some of the mysteries that are so abundant in this case then also disappear.

11-17-2012 at 16:02:28

Further about the BBC’s interview with Prosecutor Eric Maillaud.

The French cable network BFMTV has now picked up very briefly on the interview. It gives just two of the prosecutor’s quotes.

The BBC reported that he said: “We are looking for unbalanced people – capable of extreme violence. People who have access to weapons; hunters, collectors, shooting club members, some of whom could have had psychiatric problems.We are searching a huge area stretching into Switzerland and Italy – and that includes a large number of people.”

BFMTV reported it as: “Nous recherchons un déséquilibré, capable d’une extrême violence. Une personne ayant accès à des armes – chasseur, collectionneur, membre d’un club de tir, quelqu’un qui pourrait avoir eu des problèmes psychiatriques. Nous cherchons dans une très large zone, qui inclut la Suisse et l’Italie et qui comprend beaucoup de monde”.

Note that the BBC said ‘unbalanced people’ and ‘people who have access ..’ whereas according to BFMTV Maillaud said ‘an unbalanced person’ and ‘someone who …’ – in other words, ‘one killer’.


11-17-2012 at 16:07:17

@Peter : re: hacking/phishing Saad Al-Hilli’s PC

Peter, what I find so extraordinary is that they hacked Saad’s PC. Why him? What info did they have which made them interested in him? To all appearances he was a family man living quietly in a upper middle-class area south of London with wife and daughters.

11-17-2012 at 16:08:23

@Alexander re: eliminating immediate family

Maybe he did add ‘as suspects’ by the BBC subbed badly.

11-17-2012 at 16:18:04

What is wrong with you people?*

It’s 100 miles of Chevaline.

Well, actually not YOU people here:)

11-17-2012 at 16:19:09

Country #7 is Iraq.

11-17-2012 at 16:25:52

@ Marilyn/Peter:

I find it highly improbable one could hack Saad al-Hilli’s computer – a software engineer running multiple servers out of a shack behind his home, possessing large IT knowledge.

11-17-2012 at 16:27:22

@ Marilyn “Peter, what I find so extraordinary is that they hacked Saad’s PC. Why him? What info did they have which made them interested in him? To all appearances he was a family man living quietly in a upper middle-class area south of London with wife and daughters.”

They’ll hack anyone. I had an actual alert on gmail–a red flashing alert– telling me that someone in Nigeria was hacking my gmail account, so I had to change my password and add some additional security.

11-17-2012 at 16:53:46



You will find on the above link how to add an avatar. It will then be your avatar on all comments you leave on sites and not only on mine.

11-17-2012 at 16:55:28

@Alexander : re: killing of mother and two small children in fridge

Alexander, this is savagery as one does not come across often.

11-17-2012 at 17:20:01

EM says the search extends to Italy. The “Well Dressed Balkan Man” at the campground – the one the UK Sun headlined “Help Us Catch the Fiend”, was reported to be a tourist from Italy, but cleared. Or was he?

What if the motive is something, maybe generations ago, grandma’s generation or older, in Iraq. Revenge for relatives tortured or executed, a blood feud or a matter of dishonor. Or property lost, as supposedly happened to SAH’s family when they fell out of favor. No help for us, as we’d never figure that out.

About the Nigerian: Somebody at Craig Murray [my apologies to whoever, some people over there are proprietary about clues discovered, and complain when they are posted over here] found that the persons taking care of SAH’s father in Malaga, Spain – either the caretaker/nurse or the father’s Iraqi friend, had a connection to a money transfer agency and SAH’s bank info came from there.

11-17-2012 at 17:22:58

testing my avatar. I’m NileQueen but that name was taken so I’ll use my other user ID

11-17-2012 at 17:24:07


11-17-2012 at 17:28:33

Marilyn: “@Alexander : re: killing of mother and two small children in fridge

Alexander, this is savagery as one does not come across often.

I don’t know what the statistics are, but it does happen.

11-17-2012 at 17:30:27

@ Marilyn,
I don’t know what the statistics are but unfortunately it does happen; this
case is tough to fathom

11-17-2012 at 20:45:17
11-17-2012 at 21:04:17


As I have thoroughly explained in previous posts, Saad al-Hilli belonged to the Dawa Islamic party and the Shia majority who were purged by the Baath party and later persecuted by Saddam Hussein when he became president in 1979. No link to SH’s fortunes. Saad al-Hilli was anti-American and pro Shia as far as the Iraq War is concerned.

Saddam’s secret money laundering trail – Banker Elio Borradori in Lugano, Switzerland

Very little progress has been made in the investigation of the shooting and death of Gelareh Bagherzadeh. Gelareh was an activist against the regime in Iran. She recently converted from Islam to the Christian faith in a local Baptist Church. I believe this fact is most likely the reason for her death, a local issue within the Muslim community.

Remembrances Gelareh Bagherzadeh

Friends commemorated Bagherzadeh’s life with notes on her Facebook page.

“Gelareh was one beautiful soul, kind, happy and full of love,” one friend said. “Gelareh was a determined activist against Iranian government, seeking freedom for her fellow countrymen.”

11-17-2012 at 21:08:33


Interesting name, like a photon?

11-17-2012 at 21:09:24


Interesting name, like a photon?

11-17-2012 at 21:32:14

@Alexander : re:Daily Mail copy and paste job

It is exactly that.

11-17-2012 at 21:47:13

What a mess!

EM from BBS interview

‘It appears Zainab and her father were outside the car when the gunman approached, firing, from the forest trail above them.

The French cyclist Sylvain Mollier was already at the lay-by or at least close by.’


‘the forest trail above’ ????? So the casings near the ‘barrier’ is NOT the correct location??

‘at least close by’ ????? So how on earth are there SM BLOODSPATTERS on AH??

I dont know what (fact) to believe anymore lol:)

11-17-2012 at 21:50:33


I think there are good reasons to trust the Le Monde article a bit more.

11-17-2012 at 21:59:30


Which LM article are you referring to (been absent some time)?

Anyway on this 360 Martinet view I’m NOT seeing any ‘forrest trail’

11-17-2012 at 22:11:32
11-17-2012 at 22:18:11


I guess that they by the “forrest trail” mean, what we use to call the “parallel road”

I think it is a general problem that every new article is written by a new journalist. This journalist has not always read what has been written before, so he/she starts anew.

There was a better time, when newspapers could afford the same journalist to spezialise on a subject and write every article on that subject in the paper.

11-17-2012 at 22:36:53

Thx Lars, yes that LM sounds much more to the point (I base my ideas on that article)

Btw, on rereading the LM article I do NOT see the ‘SM bloodspatters on AH’ in this article … so where does that ‘fact'(?) come from again?

(I really need a database … I now have a forrest of favorites with no organisation whatsoever:)

11-17-2012 at 22:49:58

@ Oui
Great posting on the financial traill of Saddam’s hidden money. I was joking up above about the Pope’s butler, the Vatican Bank and BCCI, but they’re mentioned here – not the Pope’s butler but the other two. (It would make a better mystery story if we connected the Pope’s butler to Chevaline.)

The story contains the name of “He Whose Name We Must Never Mention,” all the more important that now in the UK Lord McAlpine is suing everybody who incorrectly mentioned his name in a scandal, primarily the BBC and the press, but also individuals who ReTweeted the false news, or who did not even explicitly state his name, but gave enough hints to identify him – sufficient under current UK libel and slander laws.

11-17-2012 at 22:51:07

@ Max & Lars:

I read “forest trail” as “the trail that begins behind the barrier”.

@ Lars:

Uh-hu, you got a gravatar now.

11-17-2012 at 23:02:57


I am not sure who wrote about these blood stains first, but I guess Daily Mail, it was however in connection with the “provisional ” scenario, put forward by Le Parisien (


Yes, you might be right about the “forrest trail”, they should though be more specific.

Yes, we are so many commentators now that I felt I needed a picture of myself as signature.

11-18-2012 at 02:31:07

@ Lars:

So you’re the guy with too less fingers but too much ears:)

Must be difficult staring at that wall-mounted monitor all the time…

And hell yeah, you’d desperately need a desk so keyboard & mouse might not be flying around all the time


11-18-2012 at 02:47:37

@ NileQueen

I had an actual alert on gmail–a red flashing alert– telling me that someone in Nigeria was hacking my gmail account, so I had to change my password and add some additional security.

I don’t want to come across as a scaremongerer, but that red flashing alert in all probability *was* you getting hacked, not by somebody in Nigeria, but by somebody in the Russian Federation, who made that alert appear on your machine. Google don’t send you realtime information on somebody trying to compromise your account. “Add some additional security”– as in, you had to input additional information about yourself, including your financial details? Uh-oh. New passphrase? Uh-oh.


Feel free to take me for an idiot, but please do *immediately* seek help from somebody seriously knowledgeable on computer security, please access your Gmail account from another machine that you *know* to be clean of malware and reset your passphrase, check for forwarding routines set in your Gmail account (that is what the scammers do, have copies of all incoming emails from specific senders such as financial institutions forwarded to their own email accounts), reset the “forgot your password?” backdoor questions on your email account, have your computer cleansed of malware, and keep an eagle eye on all credit cards, bank accounts etc. on which you have entered information in order to “confirm your ID” with Google (= some scammer).

11-18-2012 at 08:39:41

I’ve just had my credit card compromised. The most annoying thing is that I am now without a credit card for up to 10 days. Maybe someone wanted SAH’s bank account compromised whilst he was in France, it would be a good reason to set-up a meeting (just a thought).

Also the credit card details are often stolen 6-12 months before they are ‘used’. The first transaction is normally a £10 credit to an untraceable pay as you go mobile to ‘test’ the card works.

Good advise from Peter on computer hacking. Don’t trust your virus scanner it will not protect against malware. Use a ‘clean’ machine whilst you sort out the infected one (it could take a long time and you might need to reformat and reinstall all your software). Check other things you use the computer for to make sure they have not been compromised.

11-18-2012 at 09:03:43

Sunday, November 18. I won’t be on-line today. I am going to paint Paris red … Will read in on my return tonight.

@Peter : You’ve scared the daylights out of me now about hacking.

@Pete.R. : Happened to me a few years ago. I am sure that it is the easiest thing in the world to trace the person who compromised the credit card – through the isp.

@Lars : I like your avatar. You writing a book there are you Lars?

@All : Which is it – avatar or gravatar? In France we say gravatar which I notice Alexander does as well.

By the way, NileQueen has changed her pseudo to schistophrenic. Schisto is what I will call her. I will make sure to add the ‘o’ ………….

11-18-2012 at 09:07:32

@Alexander only four fingers 🙁

Now you know why I might miss a letter or a word here and there in my coments! It is not so easy with just four fingers. 🙂

11-18-2012 at 09:20:09

@ Peter, good point, although why a Russian Federation hacking my account? No, no inputting of any financial or other information. I changed my password and set googlemail to send me a code on my cell phone if it is not a trusted computer. I just checked my security question and it did not make sense. Thanks.

11-18-2012 at 09:29:21

@ Marilyn:

It’s avatar in general, like in the James Cameron motion picture.

But it’s gravatar like in if you want to use that Google/Wordpress-powered “graphic avatar” (I presume, it’s this) on all WordPress-driven blogs.

11-18-2012 at 09:40:30

@ Peter. I have received text messages from gmail alerting me that someone has attempted to sign in to my account. I think this is legitimate, if someone attempts more than a couple of times.
Iinformation on security on gmail
Do you think this is a bogus site? It talks about the red flashing notifications.

From Gmail settings:

Account recovery options

Recovery options help secure your account from hackers and give you a way to access your account if you forget your password.
Mobile phone

“We’ll use your phone to do things like challenge hijackers or send you a text message to help you access your account if you forget your password.
How a phone can protect your account …”

11-18-2012 at 09:41:44

For fun, I looked at some gaming pages. For video games, while there are plug-in weapons available, none are realistic, not even up to the quality of the light-guns of arcade games.

The video gamers made the point that playing video games, even for as little as 20 minutes, greatly improves the accuracy of real-world shooting.

Game designers said that while they can replicate (on screen) the action of any weapon – recoil, muzzle velocity, windage, etc. – they’re limited by how much processing power to use for that, and realistic sound effects for each type of weapon in the large inventory are limited by file space on the DVD.

They typically degrade weapon characteristics to match what players expect from movies, and go for action rather than accuracy. The exception is a free game available as a recruiting tool from the US Army, which has very accurate on-screen weapons, but not much action.

Accurate replica weapons of every type, including the old Lugers, are available in AirSoft style BB weapons, either gas or electric powered, with changeable magazines. The action duplicates the real thing and besides hobbyists they’re used by police and military for training. Also available are radio-controlled Claymore mines that blast 200 BBs up to 10 meters.

A news story, the Le Monde one I think, said the killer moved around a great deal. It reminds me of people playing paintball or Lazer Tag, they’re in the habit of rapid movement to avoid hits and might do so even when not being shot at.

11-18-2012 at 10:18:07

@ schistophrenic

Yup, you receiving warning text messages etc. sounds legitimate.

I didn’t mean to scare you, but what you described initially sounded exactly like a classic phishing attempt, with some trusted institution such as your email provider or your bank warning you that somebody is tampering with your account and demanding that you input additional information about yourself and/or install additional “security” software (that is actually malware).

11-18-2012 at 10:19:51


I didn’t use link until I googled for the site first and found this explanation from June 2011:
Google says Chinese hackers broke into Gmail. End of article is listed your exact google link, so must be legitimate.

Once I received an email from Google my password had been reset and gave me the link to reset password and security provisions to my (non-business) Gmail account. I prefer to limit any banking transactons unless behind my own excellent provider, founded by former world class hackers btw! One has become a multi-millionair and is a top-dog in the WikiLeaks group.

11-18-2012 at 11:36:44


If your provider is so top-notch how come I am looking at your computer right now?

No, just kidding.

@ Lars:

The 2000s have just called, they want their readymade Word-XP-2002-WordArt-style graphics back:)

11-18-2012 at 13:00:24

About ‘computers’ and ‘the internet’ and such. Look, that stuff is a zillion times more complex then the stuff used to send men to the moon in the end sixties. Lol, and now we ‘expect’ every dumbo and his grandma using this withou any problems? Lol … Only an ‘expert’ does not have ‘computer problems’ … the other 99,5% will have them and will continue to experience it. I’m afraid:)

(Just compare it to a very simple and straightforward ‘device’ as a car. You actually need lessons, lots, and pass an exam to even drive such a ‘device’ … and a car is much simpler then any computer/mobile or whatever)

So, if you ‘computer’ starts to lit up red and green and you do not know what the f* is happening … well, you have just got into a 747 and started flying the beast without any clue … good luck:P

11-18-2012 at 14:25:19

@ Max:

Yeah, from the time I was counselling IT over the phone I remember saying a technology like, for instance, WLAN in the hands of the layman user is like handing over a nuclear bomb to a child:)

Flying a 747 with only basic clue works pretty well (okay, till they crash it) in 1996 “Executive Decision” starring Halle Berry and Kurt Russell.

@ Marilyn & Peter:

Referring to Max’ 99,5%, Saad al-Hilli was part of the remaining 0,05%.

11-18-2012 at 14:27:42

Re 99,5%:

Haha, I’m just too dumb, I mean 0,5%!

11-18-2012 at 16:10:00


Interesting name, like a photon?

How does schistophrenic remind you of a photon (a packet of light energy)? 😛 Sure I’ll be a photon! Sounds flashy. 🙂

schist is a type of metamorphic rock. so schistophrenic is crazy about rocks, or rather earth science 😛

Ice ages and past extinction events fascinate me the most.

11-18-2012 at 17:40:34

Your Comments Hi Marilyn and all.
Have been reading this site for the last 2 months (getting obsessive) and also CM site. Keep up the great work. Hope you dont mind me having a few thoughts here.

When Kadhem Al Hilli died, in Spain, he was been looked after (though in a nursing home) by a close Iraqi friend. Now as Kadhem had Parkinsons he would have needed assistance with his banking arrangements, who better than a fellow Iraqi “minder”.

I read somewhere, though can not now find the link, that the said minder, Alla Hussein Mohammed, who also signed death certificate, was involved with a money transfer company. I this right.

Could that be the connection with the credit card scamming.

Also, what was the “minders” Iraqi background.

There have also been some suggestions that Saads mother in law was Iranian and not Iraqi. Has this been finally sorted one way or the other.

Look forward with interest to your ideas. Attached link to minder reference.

Alla Hussein Mohamed, from Fuengirola, who kept a close eye on the ageing Iraqi in the years before his death.

11-18-2012 at 18:56:29

Posting from some weeks ago on scotland yard blogspot. Thought it may fit with someone’s research here. Great discussion everyone!


TEL AVIV–In July, just one month prior to the multiple killings of Saad Al Hilli and his family members in Chevaline, European Business Development Manager Phil Davies of Surrey Satellites, SSTL, was in Israel at a conference discussing the future of small satellites in space.

In November, 2011, the British government announced its investment in SSTL’s space platform program known as NovaSAR. It so happens, the Israelis have a similar program, developed by the Israel Aerospace Industries, the IAI, which through the Indian Space Agency, launched the TecSAR into orbit in 2008. Now, it seems that the IAI may be interested in bringing down the cost of the synthetic aperture radar satellite and for that reason, Davies may well have been in Israel.

Saad Al Hilli must have himself gone ballistic and ranted on an Arab chatroom message board when he heard he was possibly designing components that would eventually end up in an Israeli spy satellite.

The motive for the assassination thus is an inverse Israeli one; he was eliminated for being a direct threat to the development of an advanced TecSAR spy satellite, one that Israel could use to spy on Iran’s nuclear program without needing any help from the U.S., using SSTL’s advanced inexpensive smartphone avionics guidance system.

In other words, the Israelis say to SSTL, “What about this Al Hilli fellow who’s been trashing us on the Arab chatboards, doesn’t he work for you?”

SSTL: “Don’t worry Shev, we’ll have a little talk with Mr. Al Hilli.”
Posted by James C. L’Angelle at 6:48 PM No comments:

11-18-2012 at 19:00:50

It is perhaps a little beside the point, but I am still wondering about the cyclist’s cycling career. It is always good to have a picture of the victim.

He was obviously cycling a lot to keep himself fit, but beside that?

I don’t believe that he still was competing. I have until know found 1-2 lists from competions where his name is mentioned, that hardly makes a racing career. I wonder if he ever was competing?

He doesn’t seem to appear, with his name, in connection with amateur cycling events either. These types of events seem otherwise very popular in the Savoie area.

So was he only cycling around on his own?

11-18-2012 at 19:09:53

@ Alexander Cartier
No matter how it happened, the fact is that some sensitive (account) information pertaining to SAH ended up in the hands of a nigerian-born scammer, who 1. either “socially engineered” that information out of SAH (the classic nigerian way of doing things), or 2. hacked into his PC (the classic russian / ukrainian / romanian / bulgarian way of doing things), or 3. somehow got into contact with Kadhim AH’s former carer in Spain.

@ Juno
Why on earth would the AH family use a cash-remittance service, why would the “minder” spell his name so differently each time, and why would the scammers go after the small fry (SAH’s account) rather than the big fish (Kadhim AH’s account, with a cool million in it)?

11-18-2012 at 20:12:26

@Schisto :Thanks for the explanation. I have a few small stones here but not that I am crazy about rocks.

@Juno : You are very welcome here. We are never nasty to one another, so you will enjoy being one of us.

@M : You pointed out how much more complicated computers are than cars yet we can use computers without licenses which we need for driving cars. Well, if we crash a car we can kill someone and ourselves, but using a computer we can’t.

@Alexander : 99% ? I still have not worked out the answer to 1 plus 1.

11-18-2012 at 21:19:34

Hello All couldn’t resist a comment although I have very bad connection I did send this article few seconds ago but before pushing the send button it disappeared I saw a new comment from Juno and i taught to copy and paste this article as you do remember always I said that didn’t believe WBM and the money regarding Sadam doesn’t match this killing because as OUI always explained Al-Hillis although they are muslim but they are Shea and Sadam was Sunni and as you know and it was on the news few days ago again they blew up some Iranian Shea pilgrims so the relation between Sadam and Al-Hilli doesn’t fit but the relation between the SSTL and british and Israel fits :::. ” Several satellites to be launched by next year: President
IRNA – Islamic Republic News Agency

Tehran, Feb 7, IRNA — President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad here on Monday said that several home-made Iranian research satellites will be launched during this year and the next year.

He made the remarks in a ceremony to unveil four new national satellites termed Fajr, Rasad, Amir-Kabir 1 and Zafar.

President Ahmadinejad reiterated that the Islamic Republic of Iran would turn to an exporter of space know-how by the end of the Fifth Development Plan (March 2011-March 2016).

Referring to the future of the Iranian nation as bright, he added that the rate of scientific developments is very high in the country.

Iran’s achievements in the area of aerospace in the past one year have been ten times more than those in the preceding year, the President noted, adding that such a move proves that the Islamic Republic is moving towards the zenith of progress speedily.

He advised the young Iranian scientists to further practice the idea of self-belief and make greater efforts to turn the country to one of the most developed states in the area of aerospace in the world.

Islamic Republic News Agency/IRNA NewsCode: 30228968

11-18-2012 at 21:29:05

Sorry I meant comment by ER I do agree with you ER

11-18-2012 at 21:33:30

Wrist-watches + satellites + geopolitics

Did SAH or SM receive a mystery gift prior to Chevaline?

11-18-2012 at 22:08:32

@ NR

You know, to my mind, that idea isn’t as far-fetched as it might sound to some. I have always wondered how the french gendarmerie arrived so very quickly at the conclusion that the AHs were “no ordinary tourists,” that “one or more persons inside the car must have had connections to intelligence services or organized crime”? Was that merely because of the unusual nature of the murders, or was it because of something that they had found upon the victims, or in their car?

Soon afterwards, there was this idea widely touted in the media that the killer(s) had followed the AHs all the way from the UK. Again, that made my eyebrows shoot up: Oh really? How could they possibly know that?

As I have by now formed a distinctly negative impression of the capabilities of EM’s team and their collective imagination, and for purely technical reasons to do with battery lifespan / battery size, I don’t think that it would have been anything as hip as a transmitter hidden inside a ballpoint pen or a wristwatch. However, insofar as a plain-vanilla GPS tracking device hidden on the AH’s car is concerned, say, hidden behind the plastic front bumper, I should say: Oh yes. Deploying such a device, freely available on every European high street for very modest sums, is certainly one of the first things that I should do if I ever wanted to bump somebody off.

11-18-2012 at 22:13:13


Interesting comment especially looking who the author is!
Google for commenter James C. L’Angelle …

Copyright (c) 2009-2010// reconpresseusa//
James C. L’Angelle/ editor//
Pvt.//USMC//1965-70//RVN-1968//27th RLT

Benghazi Post
27th Marine RLT – 1968 RVN Quang Nam province, Vietnam
HOTEL SANDY – by James C. L’Angelle

Also had a blogspot named 13 Rue Madeleine

I recently quoted from his Benghazi Post to get the FACTS of the militant’s attack on the US mission on Sept. 11, 2012 and the deaths of four Americans. This is just for starters, James is posting on the wrong blog. Marilyn Z. should send him an invitation. 😉

11-18-2012 at 22:31:10


Update on his blogs here. L’Angelle follows the Belize murder case and its relation to millionaire McAfee.

11-19-2012 at 07:17:21
11-19-2012 at 08:38:20

@ NileQueen “on the rocks” re no tie required:

That’s just what the French world has come to already a long time ago.

When I watched the D8 documentary on the Chevaline killings like thousand years (or better, two blogs) ago I noted that the French journalists interviewed:

-were unshaved
-weren’t wearing a tie
-had their shirts unbuttoned
-had their shirt sleeves unbuttoned
-had their shirts out of their trousers


I wrote then from their look I had the impression they’ve interviewed the killer himself.

11-19-2012 at 09:20:41




‘Dans une interview accordée à la BBC, reprise par le quotidien populaire britannique The Mirror, le procureur d’Annecy Eric Maillaud a confié que la famille britannique assassinée à Chevaline a probablement été la cible, choisie au hasard, d’une personne qui a déjà tué. De fait, la piste d’un réglement de compte familial semble s’étioler.’

I find it strange that in the Rhone-Alpes version I read that ‘AH a probablement été la cible, choisie au hasard’ while I can not find this in the source!?

But it makes sense to me if I skip the ‘SM as target’ scenanrio. EM thinks 99% that SM was NOT the target.

I have given this some thought. If SM was not the target, then I have to fall back on the ‘nutter’ as the scenario that AH was the target has far too many holes/loose ends … 1 of them is Zeena, who appearently was completely ‘overlooked’ by X (and a ‘prepared’ X would have never overlooked her)

I’ll stick to motorbiker = Killer X

And can maintain that X at least prepared his escape route (parallel route)

EM says ‘When I have the motive, then I’ll have my suspect’

But that is the problem with the ‘nutter’ … he does not have a (real) ‘motive’ (at least not a ‘motive’ against AH and/or SM)

EM has ‘a working hypothesis on how the events unfolded’

But he fails to say something about the motorbiker. That guy is not mentioned at all, yet in my view the guy still has to be debunk as not being X!?

11-19-2012 at 09:29:21

Monday, November 19.

I received such a lovely pen as a gift in this morning’s post. The ‘sender’ called himself simply ‘your friend’ …

If these murders are going to be solved this week, it will be we, here, who will solve it.

11-19-2012 at 09:58:31


To try and understand what Eric Maillaud means, is like to decipher the answers from the oracle of Delphi.

11-19-2012 at 10:01:37

I wont be solving this crime. Too few data to work on:)

(Hey Marylin, My M – – wont do anymore? I have become Max again with a fake email … lol)

11-19-2012 at 10:11:45

@ Schisto, Alexander

I remember that when I travelled a lot in France “thousand years ago” I was also very surprised by their “dress code”. France was for me then still the country of “haute couture” and very cool looking people. But I changed my mind when I travelled through France.

Stepping into someone’s car could also be like stepping into some boy’s locker room at school. But that has probably changed now. The air condition is anyhow better nowadays and bathrooms more readily available. But I still love France.

11-19-2012 at 10:46:44

Welcome back Max.

Don’t think you have seen this photo before:

I have also found one of the road sweeper going up Combe D’Ire on 6th Sept, this is an agency photo so I’ll leave you to find it yourselves, try using Bing. Why on earth would the police be cleaning up Martinet on the 6th?

11-19-2012 at 10:49:13

@Max : re: Max again. Yep, wise move. As for me the damage has been done already so I will just stay who I am.

@Lars : French cars and bathrooms. I wrote about the lack of toilets and bathrooms in this country a while ago. I agree about the state of the cars of French people. (Close your eyes, Alexander!) And one sees elegant Parisians these days only in the expensive arrondissements. Yet I still say one would have to look very far before one would see a man as elegant as a Frenchman in a dark suit!!

11-19-2012 at 11:05:30

@ Marilyn
Be careful with your pen, honestly. It could be coated with pollonium. I would love to have you and your great blog here in a week or so, so that we´re hopefully all here to solve this case.

11-19-2012 at 11:07:06

@Pete R.

I think that it is a nice photo since it shows the very short distance between Martinet and the “parallel road”, seen in the upper part of the picture.

Please post the other photo too.

11-19-2012 at 11:12:51

@ Lars

I don’t think that’s the “parallel road.” I think it is the hairpin turn of the Route Domaniale de la Grande Combe Dite Chaplain. After the turn, that road leads south, towards the Col de Cherel.

The other photo

11-19-2012 at 11:56:35

@Peter R, Peter, Lars,

Thx for the photo’s. The aerial I did see before (no prob to look at it again)

Lars is right about the parallel road. Above IS the first part of the parallel road (which is still the ‘normal road) but at the next hairpin (which must be a bit to the left of top left their must start a forrestry track of some kind which I pressume the motorbiker as Killer X took (at least to escape) until he hit upon the ONF guys a bit further)

The ‘road sweeper’ is hilarious:)

11-19-2012 at 12:04:38


Col de Cherel is via a small track going straight on (following the river). The hairpin bend climbs steeply and joins the parallel road at the next hairpin bend.

See 29secs in on this vid:

11-19-2012 at 12:32:30

Pete R. … the video seems subscriptions only

11-19-2012 at 12:33:12

Dutch murder solved after 13 years through dna tests

In rural area in province of Friesland, a suspect has been found 13 years after a murder of teenage girl that shocked The Netherlands. Many earlier suspects in the investigation were linked to a refugee centrum (xenophobia) nearby. Later a new investigation was started by cold case detectives. One link found was a cigarette lighter (playboy logo) which was bought in the district of the murder. Focus came on a local person as offender. New dna techniques found a profile, so recently in a area within 3mi. of the murder, all male inhabitants were requested to deliver a dna sample to the investigation. 89% of the male persons participated and a near perfect match was found, most likely through a close relative of the suspected murderer, a 44 year-old dairy farmer living 1,5 miles from the girl’s home. Thank God for the perseverance of the detectives and the parents who can find some comfort justice will be done and find closure to a horrible deed.

Home of the suspect has been closed down for further police investigation. Map of area.

11-19-2012 at 12:35:41

I’ve caught up I think !

Here is something to consider, the amount of drug trafficking taking place in the Savoie/Haute Savoie is enormous, I heard recently on the radio about a Balkan caught with a haul of cocaine, that would be mid October.

Read through and see what is said about forests and hidden stash, was there drugs hidden near the Martinet ? Did someone already imprisoned, released early, return to get the hidden drugs ?