Saad Al-Hilli On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 – more than nine months ago –  the Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli was shot to death in Haute Savoie (Upper Savoy) in France. He, his family – wife, two small daughters and his mother-in-law – were on holiday in this very beautiful area of France. His […]




Saad Al-Hilli

Saad Al-Hilli

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 – more than nine months ago –  the Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli was shot to death in Haute Savoie (Upper Savoy) in France. He, his family – wife, two small daughters and his mother-in-law – were on holiday in this very beautiful area of France.

His wife and mother-in-law were also shot dead and the elder of the daughters was also shot as well as beaten over her head, but she survived. Mrs Saad Al-Hilli had the reflex to hide the younger daughter under her dress on the rear floor of the family’s BMW.

Also shot to death was a French cyclist who might or might not have been the primary target.

We, here on this blog, have been speculating about what had happened that September day from almost the day the media first reported the murders.

One of us, Alexander Cartier, went to Haute Savoie this past April and filmed the lay-by where the killing had taken place. You can watch his very interesting video here on YouTube.


UPDATE Sunday, June 16, 2013

Already on our 7th thread and this multiple murder remains as far from solving as the day of the shooting on September 5, 2012.

Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris's horse butchers.

Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris’s horse butchers.

UPDATE Friday, May 31, 2013.

Great frustration is being expressed over the slowness of the French investigators to solve this atrocious murder, especially so when September 5 approaches and the French prosecutor’s office releases some small detail about the investigation, but as quickly fall silent again.

So, how long will the investigation continue before it will be classified as a ‘cold case’.

In France a case remains open for as long as the examining magistrate considers it necessary. There is a requirement though: the examining magistrate must regularly have a fresh lead to justify further investigation or the State will close the case because of inactivity on the part of the judiciary. A case could thus remain open indefinitely provided there is proof of judicial activity.

What if a suspect is named and the individual is not in France? Say the investigators do not even know his (or her) whereabouts?

In such a case, the French judiciary can indict the suspect and liaise with Interpol to issue an International Arrest Warrant. This means that the police of the 190 member states of Interpol are authorized to arrest the suspect. The French can also proceed to put the murderer on trial in absentia. This had happened in 1995 with the Kalinka Bamberski Case when the teenager’s rapist and murderer, the German doctor Dieter Krombach, was sentenced to 15 years incarceration. On his arrest in France in 2011 a retrial was held and the 15-year sentence was confirmed.

In a trial in absentia there will be no jury and the presiding judge, assisted by two magistrates, will pass their verdict. In such a trial the accused could, by law, be represented by a counsel who would plead his case: the counsel would be chosen by the accused’s family. In the event of a guilty verdict the counsel would not be allowed to appeal.



2012 Don't Eat Horses Campaign in Paris.

2012 Don’t Eat Horses Campaign in Paris.




Zaid Al-Hilli


Zaid Al-Hilli, 54, the brother of the murdered Saad Al-Hilli, has been arrested at his home in Chessington, Surrey, at 7.30 a.m. this morning (Monday, June 24, 2013) on suspicion of ‘Conspiracy to Commit Murder’.

Reports drifting around Paris is that he allegedly hired a gunman to shoot his brother.

If the gunman is ever arrested he faces life imprisonment for ‘assassination’ (murder with premeditation) under Article 221-3 of the French Code Pénal.  For the violence against the seven-year-old Al-Hilli daughter, Zainab, added to the life sentence will be thirty years for violence on a minor under the age of fifteen. (Article 222-14 of the French penal code – Code Pénal.)

A for Zaid Al-Hilli, should he be found guilty of ‘Conspiracy to Commit Murder’ and in the event that the murder had been carried out, he too faces life behind bars. (Article 221-5)

However, before sentencing there would have to the arrest of the gunman and then extradition to France not only of him but also of  Zaid Al-Hilli and Britain does not easily extradite its nationals.

Naturally, there would also have to be a trial and not in the United Kingdom but here in France because the crime was committed here.

Therefore, should both the British and French police find sufficient evidence to put Zaid Al-Hilli on trial, there will be no quick end to this case. French justice is slow, very slow indeed: an accused sits in prison for years. Three years easily. Even longer.


UPDATE: JUNE 27, 2013

Zaid Al-Hilli was released on bail today without having been charged. His bail is valid until July 31,2013.


If you wish to read previous posts about this shooting at Chevaline on September 5, 2012 you can do so

here – September 6, 2012

here – September 8, 2012

here – October 25, 2012

here – November 7, 2012

here – December 9, 2012

here – March 3, 2013

here – April 20, 2013

here – May, 31, 2013

here – June 16, 2013


Marilyn Z. Tomlins –

Marilyn Z. Tomlins

562 Responses

7-1-2013 at 12:59:22
7-1-2013 at 13:03:41


You can really make anyone bewildered with these numbers. 🙂

Anyhow I can volunteer to make such a list if the other participants here think it is a good idea, and are ready to contribute to its content (or say what it should contain). I will wait and see.

7-1-2013 at 13:32:25

I like this new page its much quicker to load on my old
ZX81 🙂

On which subject
Saad had many many (at least 10 ) old computers in his side shed
the “modern ones ” post 1998 were in the shed that Ikbal had taken over to study for her BDS exams
Her overseas diplomas were not acceptable to the NHS so she was having to sit exams all over again from scratch
shame that when she came back from Dubai
she put her dental instruments as hand baggage 🙁
Saad warned her but they took them off her anyway 🙁
Oh and for the Trolls this information is easy to collate from all the stories published about Ikbal that are out there .

7-1-2013 at 13:53:05

One more thin (bike):

When I look at the pictures I can see another ‘white spot’. A ‘samey’ white spot as the spot marker we already know from

Look at the 3 pictures. Near the bike, on the middle of the road, there seems to be another ‘spot’. Perhaps it is also a ‘marker’ indicating something ‘important’ (e.g. bullet casings location?)×351/271656_1.jpg

– M

7-1-2013 at 15:57:08

Where i were born we called em Mowdiwarps !

people who come to tea can see the big one by my front door 😉

7-1-2013 at 16:06:48

We’ve seen a lot of pics of skid marks recently. And also one of those sweet little girls riding a trike supposedly at the Solitaire. Good thing their face had been pixeled out.
Those who are gone no longer need such protection. We should look for photos of the ones we’ve never seen.
As for SM for instance, here’s a good candidate:
If you do a reverse search on the image data bank, you’ll find out more. Notice how similar to EM’s his dentition is.

7-1-2013 at 16:22:09


Though I am extremely good at figures, necessary for my work, I couldn’t tell what was right or left, or I mixed them constantly up, until in my early teens. It was of course very embarassing and a source for a lot of ridicule from my “friends”. So in the end I just had to learn it.


Please, please, not that old ghost again!! He is still living.

7-1-2013 at 16:23:21

Well, if a ghost can be living. 🙂

7-1-2013 at 16:32:45

@ Lars
Some ghosts wear caps that remind me of stuff left on the dashboard of the beamer..

7-1-2013 at 16:46:21

I imagine the work with the list I proposed above like this. I start with a couple of items in the list. Somebody who wants to contribute simply copy my list to his/her post and adds a new item (you can of course also edit what is already on the list), and the next one copy that list and so on. Almost like some children’s game. When we feel we are ready Marilyn can put it in the header as a reference for all. We’ll see how it works out.
, if there is any interest.

Date: 05.09.2012
Place: Lay-by Le Martinet, Les Bauges, Haute Savoie
Weapon: Luger P06
Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm
Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel
Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown
Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21.06. 1959, British originally from New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile, Latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom)
Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends.
Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline

Please add!

7-1-2013 at 17:04:20


RE pictures
I wont post pictures of Ikbal or Saad
and obviously cant post pictures of the girls
but as ever the offer of tea is still open
and if my photo frame is switched on you never know what you might glance in the background
if you bring a camera …it goes in the bin 🙁

7-1-2013 at 17:04:50

Date: 05.09.2012

Place: Lay-by Le Martinet on Route de Forestiere , Les Bauges, Haute Savoie

Weapon: Luger P06

Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm

Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel

Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown

Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21.06.1959, British originally from New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile (2km from Route Forestiere), latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom)

Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends.

Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline

Documentaries and Videos:

Suspect n°1 ( Les secrets de la tuerie de chevaline) (

The Alps Murders (

Alex’s video from Route Forestiere (

Please add!

7-1-2013 at 17:12:58

Date: 05.09.2012

Place: Lay-by Le Martinet on Route de Forestiere , Les Bauges, Haute Savoie

Weapon: Luger P06

Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm

Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel

Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown

Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21.06.1959, British originally from New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile (2km from Route Forestiere), latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom)

Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends.

Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline

Victim 1: Sylvain Mollier, född 26.02.1967, welder at Cezus (Areva) Ugine, living in Ugine, Haute Savoie, 3 children

Documentaries and Videos:

Suspect n°1 ( Les secrets de la tuerie de chevaline) (

The Alps Murders (

Alex’s video from Route Forestiere (

Please add!

7-1-2013 at 17:22:14


Yes, I am also a source of much amusement because of mixing up right and left. People who know me know when I say ‘left’ they must look or turn right and vice versa. They do not even hesitate. When I am with French people and I say gauche when I mean droite they think I can not speak French. Can you imagine the chaos, for example at the dentist, when I am told to turn my head to the left and I turn it to the right. I have often had a sharp object stuck into my face.

Same bewilderment when I have to pay for something in a shop. Because of the dyscalculia when I am told the amount it does not register in my brain. So when I ask again what the amount is, the cashier thinks I can not speak/understand French and then either shouts the amount out to me or points to the till for me to read it. And then I read it but before I can get my credit card out I’ve already forgotten the amount. When my advisor in my bank speaks to me about investments etc I just sit there and listen to her and after about 10 minutes I start laughing because I’ve not made head or tails of what she’s told me.

But I live with it …

7-1-2013 at 17:28:35


No, I am not left-handed.

I can read the time on a clock, but no sooner have I done so than I’ve forgotten it. It can be chaotic when I have an appointment for which I can not be late. Or if I have a train or plane to catch. Once, I rushed to get to Gare du Nord for the Eurostar, then, when I got to the booking in section I was told that I was 2 hrs early. My sister was with me and she nearly killed me because I dragged her from the flat when she had not yet done her make-up. She does not suffer from this hereditary dyscalculia but her son does.

7-1-2013 at 17:31:25

Lars’s List:

Lars has started a summary of info for reference purposes.

Please do add to it. Whatever detail you can think of.

I repeat it here. Maybe you can copy it to your PC and work on it there comfortably.

Date: 05.09.2012

Place: Lay-by Le Martinet on Route de Forestiere , Les Bauges, Haute Savoie

Weapon: Luger P06

Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm

Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel

Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown

Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21.06.1959, British originally from New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile (2km from Route Forestiere), latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom)

Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends.

Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline

Documentaries and Videos:

Suspect n°1 ( Les secrets de la tuerie de chevaline) (

The Alps Murders (

Alex’s video from Route Forestiere (

7-1-2013 at 17:33:01


No, not him.

7-1-2013 at 17:53:46

Lars’s List: Can someone add Prosecutor Maillaud’s details for example, and give the names of the 2 Gendarmerie colonels and the names of the two examining magistrates in charge of the investigation?

I am also thinking of the number of inhabitants of the towns/villages in the region, and the distance from one another?

7-1-2013 at 18:29:04

I think we need to work on separate sections …
(I’ll have to vet these videos to see if info is still correct)


ITV News of Sept. 5, 2012

CNN Young girl found alive among bodies in France
Video 2:43 at sign La Combe d’Ire + helicopter flght – ITN

ITV – Aerial images of the crime scene in the French Alps

SKY News – Early report Ugine plant, mayor and Chevaline woman saw small white car

TF1 – JT Tuerie en Haute-Savoie : le point sur l’enquête
Video 1:50 Sept. 6 – report bottom hill plus aerial view helicopter

France shooting: Four dead after gun attack on British car in French Alps
Emergency vehicles passing by going to Martinet parking – NewsLive Sept. 5, 2012

Haute-Savoie : l’effroyable tuerie — French
Video 3.08 Sept. 6 at sign La Combe d’Ire + night helicopter in air + Chevaline woman white car + Ugine plant report

Published on Sep 6, 2012 – Les victimes de cette tuerie ont été découvertes par un cycliste mercredi vers 15H50 dans leur BMW break, sur un parking forestier de la commune de Chevaline. La fillette de quatre ans a été retrouvée indemne vers minuit, soit huit heures après la découverte du drame, et est depuis prise en charge.

French Shooting Believed To Be Targeted Killing (Sept. 07, 2012 BBC News)

VIDEO of brief interview with builders …
Tuerie de Chevaline : la scène du crime passée au crible (VIDEO)

Telegraph: France shooting: first view of Alps massacre scene (VIDEOS)

Alps Murders: Witness Brett Martin describes his awful dilemma (Video 12:49 min.)

TF1 – JT Le 20 heures du 6 septembre 2012 (Video 24 min.) – news report plus aerial view helicopter

7-1-2013 at 18:29:09


Do you have a reference for Mollier’s date of birth? Long time ago I have posted this document on MZT

Did you refer to that list. I am not at all sure if this is our SM. Interesting though if it is him.

7-1-2013 at 18:39:24

early reports quoting EM say that SM was born in April 1967
Probably a question mark should be added to 26th of Feb 1967.

7-1-2013 at 19:21:05


I will read your scenario more carefully later. I must however note that iirc and imho it was NOT EM who came up with the ‘dragging SM’ stuff. It was the fabric of some LeMonde journo, who supposedly had ‘inside info’.

Both EM and BV denied the ‘leak’ although they both did NOT confirm/deny anything ‘Le Monde’ has said (althou EM appeartly muttered it was BS) … which is only normal as denying and/or confirming is a way of giving info, and that is what ‘the french’ in general simply do NOT do (as Marilyn has explained multiple times)

I myself have propsed so many different scenario’s, your might simply be one of them.

But, if you have set your ‘scenario’ in stone you have to give it a follow up by handing a motive … So … what is it all about?

I myself just thought of a new ‘overall motive’. Probably not the correct one, but at least it sound good. Will post it later;)

– M

7-1-2013 at 19:50:24

Measured and photographed the similar sign to the barrier one at Martinet, the white with red circle 47cm diametre.

It can be seen in the ‘bike’ photo, at about the same level to white ‘whatever’ nearby.

Maybe Max, you would like to make a comparison, on my screen about 2mm, white round thing about 4mm – does this compute ?

I also paused at the BMW garage, the tyres of the X5 appear to be about 20/25% bigger than the saloon car tyres. Probably that info is there.

On the BMW, interesting read was that the build of the vehicle gives a 50/50 weight load split between the front and back axle, it even steers better with weight in the back. This apparently allows for the engine to be nearer the front axle, which is what gives it the long bonnet style. At which point I say ‘if you say so’ !

Should I follow the thoughts that the tyre tracks were made by something other than the BMW, what is the wheel base of the Forestry vehicle that is seen parked outside number 7 or 12 route de Moulin as indicated by Bibi.

@Bibi, could you remind everyone of that vehicle and what site it’s on ?

There remains nothing to say that the tyre tracks weren’t made well in advance, and if I look at the arc, then the outer side of the vehicle goes under the BMW……

The tyre tracks behind the low loader and and the close up supplied by George – just a thought, the rear drivers side of the BMW was flat or deflated when photographed on the recovery vehicle, there were reports that Saad had a slow puncture, someone at one of the campsites said he was always pumping it up.

And some of you may mock me, I still believe that what Eric Maillaud has directly shared is the truth, even if a little economical, he has every right to do that it is an ongoing investigation.

@Oui, I wish he hadn’t overplayed the British/Iraqi stuff from early on, although on the 12th September, all pistes were still open. That attitude has coloured many peoples perception.

Busy now, will look in later, when I have more time to read the comments already posted.

7-1-2013 at 20:04:33


That was one source for Mollier’s birth date, I have had it confirmed somewhere but I can’t remember where right now. I’ll think about it.

7-1-2013 at 21:00:08

Date of births (dob):
Saad Hilli 18 January 1962
Zaid Hilli 2 February 1959
Claire Schutz 7 May 1983
Laurent Schutz 11 August 1987

7-1-2013 at 21:07:52

dob:Philippe Bossy – 5 April 1971
Conférencier Annecy

7-1-2013 at 21:30:54

ATM a bit fed up with all the details so I will post a ‘grand story arc’. The possible WHY of the killing. Although EM does not at all look at the SM side, I will again center my story around SM.

(I did google/collect some stuff from other blogs. Partly credits to them. I didn’t check all the stuff, some parts could have become outdated. If so, then it is just a fun story)

The overall ‘story arc’ is mine;)

– 2007. Christian Marechal, being best with friends with Pierre Morange (a right wing politician) is mudered. 18 knife stabs. The case is still unsolved.

– PM is the brother of GS and the uncle of CS

– Fast forward a few years

– SM meets CS.

– SM was once married to a hairdresser, and SM was active in Solidarite at Progres (left wing politics).

– From both these things SM (possibly) knew Frederic Brun

– Appearently there are Brun’s who also run some detective bureau

… anyway

– SM enters the Schutz/Morange milieu

– SM is the polar opposite of PM(!)

… now perhaps SM did find out something on PM (connected to the murder of CM) or tried to find out via the Brun’s, or he spoke with FB of this case and both decided to take a deeper look into PM/CM. And perhaps there was some truth in this. Who knows PM (and who knows GS) decided that this poking needed to ‘stop’ … with the result: SM has to die, and so does FB

– sept 5, 2012 … SM dies on Martinet (Chevaline). X escapes in a 4WD

– sept 29, 2012 … FB dies on col de l’Arpettaz (Ugine) in a 4WD Pajero

… both deaths are weird. SM’s death is obscured by the murder of 3 brits. FB’s death is weird because 2 other passengers in that car could get out before the car fell 30 meters.

FB’s nickname was ‘brindille’ (which could be translated as ‘observer’ or perhaps even ‘spy’)

– M

7-1-2013 at 22:05:47

Thank you Lars and Max and Oui for putting a summary together.

I have the names of the two examining magistrates and the second Gendarmerie colonel somewhere and will find it.

Then we must decide how we will make the summary available and easily accessible.

Right now though I will say ‘tomorrow is another day’ because it is after 10 p.m. and I’ve been in my office working all day and do not even have the energy now for some serial killing.

Till tomorrow.

7-1-2013 at 22:17:23

@Max, I said before that the Frederic Brun death was odd, Marilyn told me what would happen at an inquest, do you recall ?

Brindille is also a twig, twiggy, which of course he wasn’t ! From the video footage of Frederic Brun I posted a long way back, he doesn’t appear to be the brightest button in the box ! He was known for his humouristic comments as printed on his birthday after his death at the end of September 2012, in the said car accident, do you have the photo of the old Pajero, re-registered with a new plate ?

I would like to know who were the driver and front seat passenger, that jumped from the car as all four wheels left the ground – did they work for the ONF, by any chance ?

Nevertheless, I have always had a suspicion that he was involved or knew, people really need to consider the ‘closeness’ of the inhabitants in the mountains and small villages.

This isn’t Omerta or such, far too extravagant, nor Gladio as Bacchus also said, this is the ‘oh, f***’ moment.

This is why, I will repeat myself, IF there was a target it was Mollier, if no target, something went very wrong that day, chances are none of the deaths were planned.

Max, when you say CM, you risk having your comment not approved by Marilyn, for the ‘come latelies’ can you please put the name in full to avoid confusion.

And Lars, can you kindly post the similarities between these murders and Mercier – that I do find strange….

Great work by the way, I suggested similar the last time around.

@Marilyn, can you also add the Radio 4, The Report programme and the TV8 Mont Blanc pice the morning after, where Lise Ducher is interviewed,the third cyclist piece, thanks to Bibi, I think, the VTTist.

7-1-2013 at 22:47:48

@FB, I’ve just read James’ comments from last night, and you thought I was brusque !

Well, as you have said you aren’t difficult to find and you’re not hiding, even the old neighbour has described Saads love and behaviour towards his girls and you have added to that, with insights into their lives.

Was Saad, ever Sa’ad as far as you know, I’ve seen the Al-Hilli, reduced to Hilli ?

Just to flag up that there was another death, Sylvains, his youngest son recently celebrated his First birthday, a little over two months old when his Papa died.

His two older boys, now 16 and 14, no doubt wondering what happened, the enquiry team have a duty not just to Zainab and Zeena but to Leo, Matthis and Louis to give an explanation as to what happened that day and put the culprit behind bars….. or will they always be condemned to look over their shoulder.

@Alex, poetic licence, zut !

7-1-2013 at 22:49:17

@ Lynda, 7-1-2013 at 22:17:23

The single most important similarities between the Gregory Mercier murder and Chevaline concern the choice of locations and the pistol-whipping. The latter alone, to my mind, allows at least a prima-facie suspicion to be formed that the two incidents may be related.

@ Lars

I have actually followed up your query and tried to research situations for which people might have been taught to turn a handgun into some kind of clubbing weapon. I came up with very little indeed. The key reason is that a handgun is the “great equalizer”: if you carry a gun, you don’t have to go within reach of of your foe, pitting your physical strength against his; all you have to do is curl your index finger and release the inherent power of the bullet. There are some close-up fighting techniques involving physical contact for the purposes of arrest or restraint (e. g., twisting the muzzle of your gun into the clothes of your adversary, such that he cannot easily bat the gun away, or sticking the muzzle into his mouth or armpit), but none involve beating your adversary over the head with your gun. To my mind, the latter is almost entirely a criminal habit, intended to avoid an otherwise certain charge of murder / attempted murder.

7-1-2013 at 23:11:01

Saad was always Saard never with a glottal stop !
but sometimes Hilli on documents

7-1-2013 at 23:26:29

@FB, I just wondered why James wrote it like that, I’ve not seen anyone else do so ….. is it a common usage ?

@Peter, interesting the Mercier case, isn’t it ?

I think the ‘pistol whipping’ term is incorrect, a bit like the ‘double tap’, it is sensational journalism.

Zainab was hit over the head, the butt of the gun leaving an imprint and possibly fragments, lets say splinters, the gun could have easily still been in the gunmans hand the right way, if you get my drift, this was a child afterall and not some gangster tied up to a chair ! (Hollywood,again).

Some or all of the occupants of the car received two bullets to the head through the car windows.

The cyclist received five bullets to his body, then in a separate incident two to his head through his helmet.

Now doesn’t that read more like the truth…..

7-1-2013 at 23:47:54

The similarities between the Mercier killing and the Chevaline killings are:

1) time of the year, almost one year earlier 6 August
2) calibre of the gun: 7,65 mm
3) shot victim through a car window (that time open)
4) shot the victim twice in the head
5) hit the gun in the face of the victim

@Peter, thanks for info on pistol whipping

7-1-2013 at 23:48:10


That FB death is indeed weird.

‘C’est en quittant le 4×4 que deux des passagers auraient entrainé son déséquilibre dans la descente. Une chute de 30 mètres qui se finit dans un rocher, entre deux arbres. Le dernier occupant de la voiture, âgé de 35 ans, décède sur le coup. Des examens toxicologiques doivent être menés pour comprendre les circonstances de la sortie de route.’



Pajero4WD, Coiffure, Solidarite&Progress, both die in weird cases, within 1 month???

– M

7-1-2013 at 23:49:18


Saad (or Sa’ad) is a common Arabic name for a male.
It can be spelt either way.
I spent many years in The Middle East, so I spell it “Sa’ad”.
Just habit I guess.

But I was interested in Mr Al Hilli’s time in Dubai more than anything.
However I know realize that “Fat Bastard” cannot help me with this period as he would have only known Mr Al Hilli from approx some time after 2005 onwards, being that they met at a local play group.

At this time Mr Al Hilli would have been contracting in the U.K. and no longer in Dubai.

7-1-2013 at 23:50:34

Of course, as Peter said, it was also a sort of a lay-by in the Mercier case, but this time along the motorway between Annemasse and Annecy.

7-2-2013 at 00:19:14

ONF cars:
Two of them can be seen in Arnand, n°7 rte du Moulin. A 4×4 is parked along the road, another car is parked on the yard.,7+Route+du+Moulin,+74210+Doussard&gl=fr&sa=X&ei=xq-XUfKtD7Ga0AXhk4DoBQ&ved=0CDMQ8gEwAA
A guy working for the Onf seems to live there. His Name? Gsearch (onf roland bauges) His name appears on the second site Pdf doc.

7-2-2013 at 00:50:21

Time & Date: Wednesday 5 September 2012, around 15:30

Place: Lay-by Le Martinet on Route de Forestiere, Les Bauges, Haute Savoie

Weapon: Luger P06

Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm, around 21-25 bullets used

Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel

Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown, road bike ?

Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21 June 1959, British originally from Aukland New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile (2km from Route Forestiere), latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom), married to Theresa Valerie Martin, born 12 November 1958, Airline purser, owner of Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited (founded on 14 Feb 2006), arrived on a mountain bike (Vélo tout terrain (VTT))

Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 5 April (?) 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends

Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline, owned by Vivienne et John Beweek, saw the Al-Hilli family pass in their car

Witness 4: Melvin (“the gentle giant”), born 1997, on a trial motorcycle, living in Marceau Dessous, father Franck, both heard the shots

Witness 5: Denis Janin, shepherd, Col de Cherel, saw a motorcycle going in the direction towards Le Martinet at around 16:00 (source Le Parisien), wife Catherine Jeanin

Witness 6 (?): Sylvie Lecoeur, living in Chevaline, born 1963, seen a white car (Peugeot ?) speeding through Chevaline at around 16:00

Victim 1: Sylvain Mollier, born 26.02.1967, welder at Cezus (Areva) Ugine, living in Ugine, Haute Savoie, 3 children: Leo (1996), Mathis (1999) and Louis (2012), living with Claire Schutz pharmacist, born 7 Mai 1983, on a three-year leave of absence from Cezus
Relatives: father Roger Mollier (died 2011), born 1933
mother Suzanne Mollier
brothers Alain, Christophe, François
sister Sylviane
uncle Fernand Mollier
Previous mariage: ex-wife Lydie Ringot (Sclosa), hairdresser, Ugine
born 1970
Claire Schutz’s family:
father Thierry Schutz, pharmacist, born 15 Mai 1951, (former) owner of Pharmacie Schutz Morange , 73 Rue Joseph Martin, Grignon and Pharmacie de la Léchère, in La Léchère
mother Genevieve Schutz (Morange), born in 1954, orthopaedist
brother Laurent Schutz, biologist , Paris, born 11 August 1987
uncle Pierre Morange, doctor and politician, in Chambourcy, near Paris

Victim 2: Saad Al-Hilli, British citizen born 18 Jan 1962, residence Oaken Lane Claygate Surrey, School Pimlico London and Kingston University, self-employed CAD-engineer, owned a house/ruin in rue Amiral Courbet, Saint Macaire, France

surviving children Zainab (2005), Zeena (2008)
brother Zaid Al-Hilli, born 2 February 1959
Father Kadhim Al-Hilli , born 1919, died August 2011 (latest address Avenida Mejico, Mijas, Spain)
Mother Fasiha Al-Hilli, born 1931 died ?

Victim 3: Ikbal Al-Hilli, British citizen, born 1965, dentist, wife of Saad Al-Hilli

Victim 4: Suhaila Al-Allaf, Swedish citizen, born 1938 in Iraq, mother of Ikbal Al-Hilli, PhD in Biology, London

Prosecutor: Eric Maillaud, born 1962, Dario Zanni (commission rogatoire internationale)

Gendarmerie colonels: Lieutenant Colonel Benoît Vinnemann

Fraudster (?): Nigerian-born Abiodun David John, 33, allegedly trying to get into accounts in the name of Saad al-Hilli

Documentaries and Videos:

Suspect n°1 ( Les secrets de la tuerie de chevaline) (

The Alps Murders (

Alex’s video from Route Forestiere (

Some important pictures:×351/271656_1.jpg

Please add!

7-2-2013 at 01:09:18

7-1-2013 at 19:21:05 I haven’t “set my scenario in stone” as you put it. Nor do I know why this event happened. In that famous phrase “there are known unknowns and then there are unknown unknowns”. Trying to determine what happened is in the first category. Motive is in the second.

However the observable facts indicate things, which unless they have been contrived, create probable, possible and impossible explanations.

To state those tracks were made by Al Hilli’s car when nothing matches, not even the width of the tyres, it is clearly irrational.

To suggest people were shot at the top end of the car park when there is no blood there but clear blood stains 15 yards away is irrational.

To suggest SAH arrived in his car to find SM already shot when his blood was found on Saad and Zainab and the shooting only lasted 30 seconds is …. irrational.

Brainstorming possible “scenarios” can be useful to test theories and uncover aspects not immediately obvious, but in the end they must be grounded in the facts of the case.

To stick doggedly to a description of events in conflict with the observable facts, raises questions as to the genuineness of the search for the truth. I notice no one has so far come back on the points I made earlier and my interpretation of them. If someone can point to flaws in my reasoning I shall be happy to revise my conclusions.

7-2-2013 at 01:09:24

Max, your scenarios are getting more interesting by the day. Liked the way you brought Frederic Brun into the mix. At the time I think we all agreed details of the accident were mighty strange at the time and the coincidences, as you point out, were downright bizarre.

Your conjecture fits the feigned incompetence of Maillaud and the seemingly bumbling investigation. In that you seem to take the opposite tack from Linda for example who seems to have put her faith in the integrity of the French investigation, though I suspect her faith has begun to waver lately (easy to see why, as it’s getting more and more difficult to continue to ignore that EM et al seem more intent on obscuring the facts about Chevaline than in truth finding).

One question: does WBM fit anywhere in your scenario as an involved party, or is he exactly as he portrays himself, an innocent bicyclist off on his normal afternoon ride up the Combe d”Ire.

Second question: Bossy, formerly Didiejean – ‘insider’ or “outsider’? any ideas? (suggestion: how about part of a “clean-up” team, sent to ensure all is under control? or maybe, part of an emergency team quickly called to the site – being on stand-by – to fix whatever mess was caused by the killing of the SAH family….what d’you think?)

Anyways, your story line is creative…my hunch is that it has elements of the truth too….

7-2-2013 at 01:15:11

@ bibi

nice find!

land rover defender 110 2.5 td5 county
width smaller than BMW X5 Touring
wheelbase: 2794 mm

7-2-2013 at 01:22:22

One more comment in Ref to Max’s new theory:

The local angle is, of course, one of several one could suggest, once we accept that the killers came in at least a two person team (driver + shooter) and that SM was a key target. For some reason i find this local angle rather sinister – what with the a ‘conspiracy of silence’ on the part of the town’s residents, EM’s deflections and extending to ALL of Sylvain’s work colleagues and relatives. that’s some collusion, no?

I and a few others here and elsewhere tend to weigh more strongly on the side of the outside (as in non-local) ‘agencies”, the French being one, British another and possibly a third we cannot name, in the background (because we can’t be sure what it is). This is admittedly a more complicated story line, one made still more complicated by the fact that it requires postulating some double-cross along the way. Also, were it true, and were I or someone else to hit too close upon the real narrative, , then our own safety would not be assured no matter who or where we are. That’s one of the reasons personally i shy away from digging too deep into motives, and too much speculation about the “purposes” of the various agencies.

Anyways, here you are Max – your theory, does indeed suggest a sinister collusion of several elements, but at least it’s confined to a locality. Mine (or others’ that share my apprehensions) has the disadvantage that the sinister aspect can reach – by definition – well beyond borders and individuals. As a result, the ability to conjecture is more limited and I will not be able to match your well-considered locally-confined conspiracy, as much I might want to.

Good excuse for being on the lazy side, eh?

Perhaps Tim V or some other brave soul in this “trans-local conspiracy” camp will venture further?

7-2-2013 at 01:23:52

7-2-2013 at 00:19:14 – now your talking! That would be a better fit for the tracks wouldn’t it? Now does anyone know what that vehicle is and its specification in relation to 4WD and lock diff capability?

7-2-2013 at 01:24:08
7-2-2013 at 07:11:49

Bon jour FB, ur up early!

Former detective Mark-Williams Thomas reports about the crime scene … [audio 6:30 min. on Sept. 10, 2012]

“If you wanted to get away from the crime scene, I spend there 24 hours, my exit would not have been back down the hill. If you go around the corner and up the hill, you are out of that area without seeing anybody on a 20 mile track which is quite suitable for a vehicle to get down and on your way and no one will see you. What they did and potentially came back down the hill passing witnesses, because not only did they pass the RAF pedo cyclist, there were other people at the bottom of the hill and who I spoke to, the lady who owns the house right at the bottom and she said you know on that day there were quite a number of people around.”

He doesn’t talk about the French cyclist SM being the possible target. He assumes Killer X was in the 4×4 vehicle or on the motorbike that afternoon and traveled down hill to exit.

7-2-2013 at 07:58:39

@ Oui 7-2-2013 at 01:15:11
“@ bibi – nice find! land rover defender 110 2.5 td5 county specifications width smaller than BMW X5 Touring wheelbase: 2794 mm”

Don’t forget the Mastros from Seattle with their Range Rover full-o-jewels specially imported from the US to France via Portugal. Would it fit the tracks? Amateur thieves hear the story 10 times removed and it becomes some wealthy foreigners in some vehicle with foreign number plates who meet somebody at Martinet to do deals.

2013 Land Rover: Range Rover: Sport
Track Width, Front (in) 63.200 (mm) 1605.28
Wheelbase (in) 113.300 (mm) 2877.82
Track Width, Rear (in) 63.500 (mm) 1612.90

“He [Saad al Hilli] was also believed to have links with Guildford-based Surrey Satellite Technology. The company directed inquiries to the Foreign Office this afternoon.”

Somebody told Surrey Satellite to refer inquiries to the Foreign Office.

7-2-2013 at 08:57:38


Lars, I tidied up comments a little so I deleted all your previous summaries keeping just the latest of 12.50 a.m. I can edit comments on my Admin,but I know that once one of you have clicked ‘add comment’ you can not make any alterations. I’m sorry about this,but it is as it is. Anyway, a great big thank you for your work. I do appreciate it. I think when we have the final summary I will open a thread just to post the summary as a reference. It will be closed to comments. What do you think about that idea?

7-2-2013 at 09:03:49


DXB was 2006.

But in DXB pre the change over, Co’s liked to “ignore” the Thursday/Friday weekend, so the change was always on the cards.
KSA….well that’s a whole different kettle of green tea and home brewed compound hooch !

RSAF out of Dhahran then ?

7-2-2013 at 09:18:30

Or Aramco ? They like their 8’s.

7-2-2013 at 09:26:26

@Bibi, NR, TimV, others

Thx Bibi. I’m no car buff. That ONF seems (as NR says) an LR 110

wheelbase 280cm

So, I rule it out on bases of to large wheel base (but anyone can/may have another view)


I’m not vaguely musing (although I use this term for other to explain it). I’m using a ‘holistic’ approach, tackling the details AND the overall picture.

E.g. the Luger alone seems to indicate a localness.

Luger (detail) – Local (overall)

And there are multiple of these connection to make.


Victims are extremely dead (detail) – Motive must be strong (overall)

Or another angle. Pan out a bit … what do most people see? Iraq, beautiful Iraq … but what do I see? PM

If I take one special person GM, do realize that for GM it is:

– Her brother is entangled in one high profile unsolved murder case
– Her daughter is entangled in another high profile unsolved murder case

Now what are the odds on that? (Now, assume for the sake of argument that GM is a strong ‘overprotective’ person … then you have a motive, which easily is as strong as the Zaid motive)

Anyway I follow my own line, which is a ‘holistic’ approach. Sometimes I drool over details, moments after I’m surfing the web for some grand scheme. Both have to fit in the end.

– M

7-2-2013 at 09:29:45

And tell me this…

“Jets” and “props”. So you weren’t a “fitter”.

Lots of Oily Boys would come out of KSA to DXB for some banter.
No where to go on the compound….and DXB a hop away.

Did Saad contract out in KSA ? And spend time in DXB ?
You contractors like to share a good thing. And mates working together is better than strangers. Tax free money (hence the Swiss Account) and meets his wife in DXB.

7-2-2013 at 10:21:21


I myself still have a few things I can think of adding to the list. I am still looking for the names you asked for, I know I have them somewhere (but maybe only in an interview).

The only important is that the list is placed so it can be used as easy reference, so we don’t have to search through the posts. It must of course also be a “living” list, i.e. editable to you at least. Maybe you can format it, to compress it a little. When we write in this little square for comments there is not much formatting one can do.
./. Lars

7-2-2013 at 10:22:55

@James, Fat Bastard is who he says he is. I don’t understand what you are trying to acheive, many of us have privately found out who he is and where he lives and his profession.

Use the knowledge you have of him, he isn’t difficult to find, just spend some time on Google.

He didn’t know Saad when he met Iqbal, he has never said he did, he may know the story, but not in real time.

They met via the eldest daughters playschool.

I’m sure he’s big enough to defend himself, I on the other hand am completely fed up with those of you that don’t like the fact of holding ‘good faith’ in the enquiry team.

I live in the France, married to a French man and have only French friends and acquaintances here, I am very aware of the way things work in the country. My step-children and subsequent grandchildren are all French, going through the French education system.

In amongst those acquaintances and friends are people who work within the fields of the British Consulate, the Prefecture, the Police, Customs, a couple of Mayors, an MP and French Intelligence.

Just like anywhere there is good and not so good in amongst them all, now I realise that those who continue to point a finger at me, live in other parts of the world, maybe never been to this beautiful country I call home.

Therefore I accept that you, as I, form opinions from the world we live in and this becomes an influence, maybe you have been subject to the strong arm of the law, maybe you have really seen conspiracy in action.

Please back off, I have been a valuable member of this forum for a long time, I hope some of my fellow posters will support me in saying that.

As for other friends, you can add Farmers, Salesmen, Retired Folk of every ilk, Nightclub owners, a Pied Noir (obviously that isn’t a job !).

Port operators, Haulage Contractors, Shop workers, you ge my drift.

I am not purporting to be an expert in this case, an observer, like Max that is trying to look at the overall happenings that day in Chevaline.

I have the benefit of being able to understand and search in French as well as English and therefore make comparisons.

@Marilyn, if you think this is inappropriate, please delete, I have ’emptied my bag’ as they say over here.

7-2-2013 at 10:28:40

@Lars, maybe you could add M. & Mme Ducher from the farm, this is where the Bossy gang stopped after leaving The Martinet and he thought he’d seen the BMW on its way up about an hour earlier. He described them as being very shaken up, Radio 4, The Report programme.

She, spoke with the VTTist, who had seen the cyclist on the ground and turned back.

Paul & Lise Ducher.

7-2-2013 at 10:50:36


There ya go ! I guess I got told off for asking a question.

I merely wondered if like many, he’s worked in “The Sandpit” before, but it doesn’t matter.

No answer needed.

Ciao for now as they say in Argentina.

7-2-2013 at 11:06:12

@Lynda at 10:22:55

Well said!

We are strongly knitted together for sole purpose to make sense of an horrific tragedy costing four lives and touching the lives of many family members, friends and relatives.

A similar statement was voiced by Lars and Max on the previous thread: it is Marilyn’s blog, so commit to her rules en enjoy her French hospitality.

Working together we’ve done an admirable task in an hostile environment of secrecy and poor journalism by the writing media.

Enjoy life and have some darjeeling tea in Surrey.

7-2-2013 at 11:20:50

@Lars and George,

Regarding Sylvain Molliers date of birth and Georges link to


Can we be sure this oral exam relates to our Sylvain Mollier, does anyone recall what the mistaken identity Sylvain Mollier, Mandeure, with cap did for a living ?

Or the one in Montelimar ?

7-2-2013 at 11:27:49

@Lynda at 10:22:55


– RR

7-2-2013 at 11:32:10

@ Oui

Any objection if we make it “English Breakfast” tea ?

Paul McCartney once told this rather funny story that, celebrity and millionaire that he is, every single time he was abroad at a hotel or restaurant and asked for tea, he was always asked “Certainly, Sir. But what kind of tea would you like? Darjeeling, Earl Grey, Lapsung Soochung..?” and he would say “NO. Tea, just TEA.”
And it took him several years to become aware that such beverage is known in foreign parts of the world as English Breakfast Tea.

7-2-2013 at 11:34:42

I back Lynda: Fat Bastard is who he says he is. Therefore, please do not go on at him. If he feels that he must defend himself, then I can understand that. He lost his friend, for goodness sake, so do show him that you care. What has happened to ‘sorry for your loss’? That is what we all here said to him when he first joined us. And he is very welcome here and here we want him to stay.

Lars, I will lay out the summary nicely once we’ve got all the info for it. I have the names of the two examining magistrates but I can’t look for it right now. Will see if I can do so this evening.

7-2-2013 at 11:56:55

Elementary my dear Watson, a nice summary …

The French examining magistrate is covered by “le secret d’instruction” [published Oct. 24, 2012]
Inconvenient facts highlight the media fiction swirling around dark mystery of the Annecy murders.

7-2-2013 at 13:12:54

the Montelimar guy seems to be rather young
The said centre de gestion seems to be in Grenoble, far away from Mandeure

7-2-2013 at 13:35:22


Yes, I thought we should add the Duchers.

The Mandeur SM is working with computers, the admin. type.

@all about tea

I see that you talk about a subject on which I might call myself an expert, teas. 🙂

I have had an lactose intolerance (like most Chinese 🙂 ) since I was a little baby, that meant that I often drank tea instead of milk

I must say that I find that ordinary type “english breakfast” tea a terrible bitter brew. The more you break the tea leaves, the more bitter substances will emerge. Therefore is that “powder” they put in the tea bags not suitable for drinking, if I may say so (now I probably have offended all Englishmen 🙂 ).

If you like that kind of tea (breakfast-type), which I also do, I can recommend that you go to a tea shop and try for instance Ceylon Orange Pekoe A. That tea contains big leaves but is still reasonable in price (there are even bigger leaves but these teas are rather expansive). That tea has a beautiful colour and has a sweet round taste. Enjoy!

End of the commercial 🙂

7-2-2013 at 13:37:37

Thanks George, I know what Lars will say, ‘Grenoble, 2009!’

The Montelimar chap, is also a rather handsome young man.

Regarding the bike/not bike, if it is it would appear to have a light coloured small saddle bag, just above the rear wheel, most often used to keep puncture repair kit in.

It is close to the wheel, which suggests to me that Sylvain was short to medium height, he has been described as ‘gamine’ and going by photos of his eldest son, I would say dark thick hair and brown eyes and obviously fit.

7-2-2013 at 13:44:30


I emailed you info for your summary: for example the names you were looking for.

Re: Tea: I am strictly tea bag.

7-2-2013 at 13:46:19


I reckon you are strictly Lapsung Soochung?

7-2-2013 at 14:18:33

Putting Oui 7-2-2013 at 07:11:49 in the mix … we can have the 4WD escape via Col De Cherel

About EM. He is ‘just’ a spokesman. I don’t think he does the investigation himself. And although EM looks at the UK, they still also (seem to) consider other ‘pistes’, like the ‘nutter’ and even SM.

It seems like EM after a week decided that the solution was in the UK. Why would he say that? Perhaps because he finally spoke to the ONF guy, who appears to be a car nutt and who stated that he’d seen a RHD 4×4 (BMW X5).

Now this ONF was imho the (now accounted for) 4×4 seen by BM.

SO what car DID the ONF see himself?

First I thought it could have been AH’s BMW, with AH going to Martinet twice (the ‘cuddly toy’ scenario) … but perhaps the ONF guy saw a 4WD carrying killer X, with X escaping via col de Cherel after the killings. This 4WD is the car which left the skid marks (not a LR110, not a X5)

But if that was not a X5 why/how would the ONF car nutt make the mistake (mistaken a e.g. Pajero for a X5)? And RHD on top of that??

Could the ONF guy himself have ‘tweaked’ his sighting and state that he saw a RHD X5 while in real he saw a LHD Pajero-like 4WD??

This could be to direct the attention away from LOCAL (perhaps the ONF guy knew/was involved in the local aspect??)

… OTOH … any investigator/specialist would have come to the conclusion the tyre marks at Martinet are either YES/NO made by an X5-like car

So, this detail is bothering me. EM is looking for a RHD X5, but the tyre marks seem to indicate a smaller wheelbase car!

(of course the tyre marks could be made by anoter car much earlier … but then again, the ONF guy could have made up the X5 in its entirety;)

– M

7-2-2013 at 14:35:11

@ Marilyn

Thanks for asking.
Well if you want know, I like Lapsung (or “green tea”) with meals, but only enjoy regular “English Breakfast” at tea-time or at.. breakfast.
Takes all kinds.

@ All

I think we’re all paying too much attention to the crime scene, and not enough to possible motives. Some avenues still remain uncharted.

7-2-2013 at 14:36:22

7-2-2013 at 01:24:08

Glad you’ve brought up Frédéric BRUN dit «BRINDILLE»

A long time ago in another place I commented on his death notice, curiously juxtaposed with SM’s as it was in Ledauphine ..

His favourite phrases ‘ tous les vedettes ne sont pas a Hollywood’ ( all the stars are not at Hollywood).

However ‘vedette’ also means, wait for it:

‘Autrefois, sentinelle à cheval ou guetteur posté pour signaler la venue de l’ennemi ; aujourd’hui, sentinelle chargée de la sécurité sur un champ de tir.’

Just coincidence, yeah right!?

7-2-2013 at 14:40:18

For all the non-Francophones amongst us:

‘Previously, a sentry on horseback or sentinel sentry posted to signal the coming of the enemy, nowadays, (a person) in charge of the security guard on a shooting range.’

7-2-2013 at 14:42:22

Maybe he got the wrong guy and was terminated.

BTW, have you all noticed all those press photos of strategically placed twigs???

7-2-2013 at 14:42:53

Thoughts and some facts regarding the skid marks.

The most accurate way to rule out Saad’s car is the wider track width of the skid pattern. Those tracks were most certainly measured by the investigators…And filed/forgotten.

When that data finally showed up, someone realized that those wide tracks could not possibly been made by Saad’s car.
This was mid April. Connections were made to earlier SUV-observations and the very late hunt for a BMW X5 began.

Now, could the tracks really be from a BMW X5 taking off in a hurry?
Well, the rear axle track width is wider (1.65m vs. Saad’s car 1.58m) however, it’s quite common to add spacers*(up to 3cm/Wheel) on X5’s and wide, low profile tyres… Yes it’s a possible match…(imho)

* A Wheel Spacer is applied between hub and wheel, very common on top-heavy SUV’s for improved road handling, looks and… Most important ,reduced roll-over risk in tricky situations.

7-2-2013 at 14:46:32

Have les enqueteurs pulled in all the local shooting range security guards???

7-2-2013 at 15:12:55

@Mochyn, it needs to be read in context to the rest of the piece.

Here is Bridille, Frederic Brun, towards the end of the interview …..

“une pensée pour notre brindille national , tu va nous manques”

7-2-2013 at 15:31:48
7-2-2013 at 15:49:24

@James I worked in ARAMCO for CGG (part of ELF)

did not know Saad when he was in DBX
but as he grew up in Pimlco he would use phrases such as camel jockey
and rag head to describe saudis !

7-2-2013 at 16:37:46

@FB at 15:49:24

Ahh, ARAMCO … well known in the 1960’s and ’70s in The Hague. Procurement and engineering for many projects during their expansion and production increase. Many friends from those years until nationalisation and move to Houston. Plenty of troubles from anti-American sentiment and terror strikes. Details slowly returning in memory.

7-2-2013 at 16:45:50

7-2-2013 at 14:36:22 I remember that Brun/obituary discussion well. This case is stranger than fiction. The crime scene was described variously as “CSI”, “Miami Vice” and “Hollywood” I believe and it then very co-incidentally crops up in related(?) obituary notices. Co-incidences are a fact of life but the more you have the less the likelihood they are co-incidences.

An interesting discussion on teas btw. Maybe we should put it down to “displacement activity”. So much more civilized and acceptable than the unsavoury business of discussing the implications of real bloodstains on the ground or the other observable facts of the case that challenge the official story line.

Lynda, I also admire France and its culture. I would like to have faith in its criminal investigation and justice system. This should not however require us to suspend our critical faculties or common sense. I notice btw that you did not comment on the fine picture of a racing bike I posted with the wide white RIMS that would it seems perfectly fit SM’s occupation, bike cost, the picture, and the glimpse of the narrow wheel on the back of the transporter.

The picture itself is taken whilst the flat loader is still in position, the crime scene is still roped off, the bike not yet on the lorry so it is reasonable to assume it really is where SM left it. It is highly unlikely crime scene people would have moved it there or interfered with it in any way pending the arrival of the forensics team. If they had they would have put it straight on the low loader to avoid cross contamination issues. As I argued above, the location of Mollier’s bike there has unavoidable implications for the story line that cannot be easily dismissed or ignored.

Now there is a further issue that people should consider. That particular photo does indeed appear to be new insofar as it includes the bike. I was right in thinking I had seen it before, and indeed had downloaded it on my computer in the middle of December last. However it differs in one significant respect: it falls just short of the bike and does not include it.

So we have to ask why has it taken about nine months for an important evidential photo to emerge? Do we put this down to accident or intent? Or is it, as Marlin and I have suggested, another little indicator of a fall-out between security agencies, intent on scoring points? For example, has the “bike photo” appeared anywhere in the French press? As the French press expert Lynda, perhaps you could advise us?

So why would it conceivably be “scoring a point” to publish a photo indicating SM’s bike? Simply because it shows it in a completely different location to ALL the graphic representations heretofore. Location it should be noted it was claimed originated from police briefings. Even were this disputed, it is indisputable that those early suggestions have never been corrected by investigators or prosecutors who obviously want the public to believe a lie?

So we can now state with some confidence that the authorities allowed two fundamental misconceptions of the crime scene to be circulated and be treated as reliable: the location of Mollier’s body shot on the OPPOSITE side of the vehicle to where he actually fell and died; and the location of his bike not to the front right of the BMW but actually many yards away at the opposite end of the car park.

How can the belated release of the photograph not be seen as subtly (yet again) undermining confidence in the French investigation and representation of the facts?

7-2-2013 at 16:58:01

@Lynda_today_ 10:22:55

100% support you comments. FB is a valued contributor with a very personal interest in the SAH family. I believe that one should respect him for being as open as he has been and respect his privacy in areas he does not wish to touch on!

SM employment:- I remember that we agreed about the Company that SM worked for. Could you do me a favour and post the name of the company that “YOU”believe that SM worked for (I can’t access my files till the end of the week) I was given some info today that surprised me!

@ TimV_ 30th of June _04:09:38 + 02:40:19 + 02:02:45

I will respond to your posts later in the week when I am not travelling as using a Blackberry to post detailed resposes is time consuming and a drag!

@ Marlin _Today _ 01:22:22
Agree with the 2nd paragraph and you “heads up v personal security”

@ Oui _Today _07:11:49
The Mark William Thomas post is interesting @ will run this against my timeline when back at the end of the week.

7-2-2013 at 17:02:11


The real genius is of course that I was able to (possibly) calculate the wheel BASE:

Wheelbase 4WD = 257 cm

– M

7-2-2013 at 17:28:20

Pure speculation on my part now, please feel free to deconstruct it in any way you can, or ignore if you wish ..

What if ‘the sentry’ did identify the wrong ‘ennemi’ and SM was offed instead of the intended target who he had overtaken on the way up the Valley of Wrath.

What if all the targets were intended to be Brits, for whatever reason?

For what it’s worth, I personally still have a totally open mind and can’t align myself with any one camp or the other, there are just far too many unknown unknowns, too many inconsistencies, and far too many bizarre coincidences.

Mine’s Darjeeling, if you please, oh and Bourbon bickies. Ta!

7-2-2013 at 17:39:48


Lars has prepared a summary for Marilyn to put in another section, although it is above as well, covering all salient posts, he was working in the foundry plant of Cezus.

@TimV, Oui posted earlier possibly why the photo was cropped.

On this blog I too posted a great deal of information about Frederic Brun including the video, which I have done before. Brindille was his nickname, twiggy, which of course he wasn’t. One of his catchphrases really meant that if God were to try to take him to paradise by his hair, he couldn’t, you will see that was bald.

Sylvain Mollier piece is under ‘acknowledgements’ and Frederic Brun under ‘Anniversaries’, obviously because he didn’t make it to his birthday.

Whilst I am intrigued by his death and have wondered whether there is a connection, there isn’t anything so far that leads to that being so, eventhough a while back I pondered this again, Oui wondered if I had some other information, I don’t.

Marilyn and I discussed the process after an accident, it is a pity that the driver and passenger have not been named.

If you’re interested maybe you can pose the questions to her again, it really is her field of knowledge.

Regrettably Tim, all the ‘everything is a conspiracy’ I find as tiring as you do my ‘good faith’.

7-2-2013 at 17:47:33


EM view on ‘theories’ is simple. He simply does not react/rectify (because if he did he would give away info which he does not want to do)

Q: Que vous inspirent les multiples théories lues dans les journaux?

EM: (Sourire) « J’arrête de lire ! Je n’ai pas le temps en vérité. Mon rôle est encadré, je suis tenu au secret de l’instruction. Je pourrais rectifier ce qui est faux mais en le faisant je serais parfois obligé de révéler des éléments du dossier, ce que je ne souhaite pas faire.


– M

7-2-2013 at 17:53:37


Yes, you are right, I keep saying Grenoble 2009! 😉

7-2-2013 at 17:56:09

@TimV – we KNOW all of that !

7-2-2013 at 18:07:56

7-2-2013 at 17:39:48

Cezus? And??

‘CEZUS, a subsidiary of AREVA, is the global leader in the market for zirconium, the metal used, among other things, for nuclear fuel cladding.’

‘CEZUS’s integrated research center, primarily based in Ugine, in the French Alps, runs ambitious development programs.’

‘Twenty-five engineers and technicians are dedicated to the development of zirconium-based alloys and processes to provide customers with the absolute best in quality and value.

The center also provides technical support to various AREVA entities. It operates within the framework of partnerships with the entire AREVA Group, with the French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS), as well as with a number of universities.

Its mission includes:
research and development of new alloys for the fuel assemblies of the future
development of software applications for use in fabrication of zirconium sponge, shaping of zirconium alloys, and conversion processes’

You cannot ignore this fact. The Ugine works has been there for more than a century, so is deeply embedded in the local community, and I’m sure you know what these kind of small rural communities can be like!

I would seriously like to ask FB if he thinks it is impossible SAH and SM would have nothing in common to talk about were they to have met in happier times?

7-2-2013 at 18:23:20

All of WHAT Lynda
7-2-2013 at 17:56:09? So are you inferring there is nothing new about the Mollier bike and its implications? Are you inferring that you agree with what I have suggested or disagree? Or are you just annoyed that someone would have the audacity to challenge your assumptions and interpretations?

7-2-2013 at 18:27:08

Oh Mochyn, there has been nothing to suggest that SM was anything other than an ‘ouvrier’ in the foundry.

Yes there is a research centre, to be employed there he would have needed to get some high level qulaifications.

Which according to his brother he never did, he’d been there for 20 years and graduated to a Production Line Senior/Manager.

Here are examples of people who do work there, my stepson gained his Masters Degree at an Ecole des Mines, after the Bac, a foundation year in advanced maths, then another 5 years.

7-2-2013 at 18:36:54

7-2-2013 at 18:27:08

Now you’re being as disingenious as Tim can be sometimes! I think you two deserve each other! You should invite each other for tea and bickies!!

Now, where did I ever suggest SM was employed at the research centre!?

But surely, you know how these things work??? All one big, maybe happy, maybe not, family! Relationships, relations, favours, obligations ..

7-2-2013 at 18:40:29

The internet is open to everyone, including the other site that many of you comment on and the rest of the world can read.

I am aware of what you think of us and our comments, nature of discussions.

I am not going to get involved in a spat with any of you.

TimV – I really don’t understand why you insist that what you write is any more correct than any other interpretation on this blog – unless of course you were there or have inside information.

I have written before ‘violent’ in French doesn’t mean it was fisticuffs, ‘fierce’ maybe. There were many people speaking about this dispute including FB.

‘So M Mollier’s refusal to comment or correct is a bit of a moveable feast. He and police took about five weeks to initiate a telephone number to call, he refused to publish photographs of victims, vehicles or other salient items that could have helped trace people and movements etc et’

And there was me thinking M. Mollier was murdered – well what do I know.

Lynda 7-2-2013 at 17:56:09 @TimV – we KNOW all of that !

Read it this way:

we KNOW all of that ?

I will not reply to anything you post in future, you are a bully.

7-2-2013 at 18:46:46

Oh, and Lynda,

Do you not think a Production Line / Senior Manager with 20 years experience could actually teach the young grads a thing or two?

I’m sure for goddam certain he could!

7-2-2013 at 18:47:04

7-2-2013 at 17:39:48 you say

“Regrettably Tim, all the ‘everything is a conspiracy’ I find as tiring as you do my ‘good faith’. ”

I don’t doubt your good faith at all. However I do doubt unquestioned acceptance of “official opinion” if it is contradicted by observable fact.

We are all free to be “tired” in these forums. I thought the idea was to put forward observations that can be discussed objectively. I haven’t noticed you have engaged or refuted a single point I have made.

In fact I find the suggestion that I think “everything is conspiracy” as a way of dismissing analysis, as threadbare as it is “tiring”. It reminds me of the age old adage that “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel”. It has been used to great effect to deflect any criticism of state created terror in the past and still is.

What I would describe as naive is the suggestion that an event such as Chevaline could be carried out without “conspiracy”. Indeed EM who you support so admirably, is suggesting “conspiracy” between ZAH and the killers operating on his behalf. You must therefore presumably finf M. Mollier “tiring”?

For clarity, and risking yet again your ire for posting something you already know, here are two definitions of the word. I think they are instructive.

“a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful:

a conspiracy of silence
an agreement to say nothing about an issue that should be generally known”

7-2-2013 at 18:51:23


SeeBee asked where he worked and I replied.

Just about to have a Martini Gin on ice for apero, I don’t drink tea.

Then some veal steak with garlic butter, new potatoes, lettuce from the garden, not forgetting some pasteque to begin with and of course a mixture of mozarella, cherry tomatoes and mixed olives, mixed with pesto and basil infused olive oil, which will all be washed down with a good bottle of red.

Bon Ap à tous !

7-2-2013 at 18:55:58


Blog history: Do you have an idea how many commentators there have been on the Chevaline thread (I am just looking through old posts)?

7-2-2013 at 19:03:29

I find myself in almost total agreement with Lynda with regards EM. I don’t think he is following a particular agenda set from the outside but trying to progress his enquiry as best he can.

EM puts me in mind of the fictional juge d’instruction Francois Robin in the French TV series ‘Engrenages’ who’s role is equal parts investigation and politics.

What I notice about EM is he doesn’t really say much about the enquiry but rather affirms leaks, or details the press have been able to discover for themselves.

For example, the details of the gun used only began to emerge with any clarity when the police expanded their enquiries to Switzerland – where people would quite readily inform local press. Likewise, I believe information about the ‘happy family pictures’ only became known through journalists nosing around in Doussard and asking the right people the right questions over a calva’. By the way, I do not believe the 15.15 timing of these pictures is set in stone, probably more like, as the JDD reported, between 15.00 and 15.10.

I’m guessing also that EM’s movements around Zaid are entirely political … issue lots of negative statements re Zaid so he can convince the British to pursue him further, if only so EM can rule him out of the investigation. Given the information they do have on Zaid it does make him a strong suspect and until he is ruled out it perhaps puts EM in a difficult position with regard to pursuing other leads.

The big problem with Zaid being the agent of the murders is that, unless he knew exactly where Saad was going to be, it would be a difficult crime to commit. And if he did know, even then it would be a logistical nightmare, particularly given the weapon used.

7-2-2013 at 19:10:48

@Mochyn69 at 18:07:56

We have had a most extensive discussion about possible links to the nuclear option. Just as EM is stubborn in his argument the motive lies in England from the outset, I was convinced SM and SAH had a meeting planned. We have covered all details, but decided to give it a rest. I have not forgotten Cézus/Areva/Timet and Ugine. I’ve looked at patented processes I could find on the Internet, just last week I looked at nanotechnology again.

A long time ago …

Mr Al-Hilli earned up to £28 an hour as a freelance engineer and his CV reveals he worked on projects including designing a ‘plasma generator’ for a company called Surrey NanoSystems Ltd.

Surrey NanoSystems Ltd. Directors David Wong Ben Jensen

Recently …

(FB) … before he went to SSTL most recently he had done some work on
the stresses of a sputtering chamber

This technology is used to make superalloys as applicable in nuclear materials,
highly sophisticated. Now and then a link to Sweden keeps cropping up!?

Nanostructured coatings for abrasive wear resistance [pdf]
This nickel (Ni), chromium(Cr), and iron (Fe) superalloy, exhibiting as it does superior mechanical qualities, is employed – among other uses – for the fabrication of nuclear reactor components. For applications of this type, multilayer coatings, involving nitride-based compositions – e.g. titanium nitride (TiN), chromium nitride (CrN), and mixed aluminum and titanium nitride (AlTiN) – were deposited, by cathodic arc evaporation.

My two diaries @BooMan …

American Mossad Trainee Possible Killer X in Chevaline Murders
Murder of French Cézus/Areva Manager, A Mossad Hit in France?

My first diary was well read across the globe with special interest in Israel, Germany and America. If you take Edward Snowden by example, he wasn’t a top intelligence official at NSA, nevertheless he caused some rimples across the globe. You have to gain trust and be close to the source! When info is leaked, your life as you know it is over. SM and SAH weren’t aware of the snooping power by GCHQ and NSA and shared intelligence with the French and Israel (Mossad and Kidon). British Ambassador Ricketts in Paris – Working with France on its Defence White Paper.

7-2-2013 at 19:22:51

@Tim V
7-2-2013 at 18:47:04

I think you’re mixing up your Molliers and Maillauds.

And by the way, it’s your round!

7-2-2013 at 19:22:52

@Y, maybe it would be helpful for Marilyn to post the role of the ‘Procureur’ again, he is more of a mouthpiece than anything else. As Max says his hands are tied and as I’ve tried in vain to explain the Gendarmes do not operate in the same way as they do in the UK.

It is rare to see interviews on the television, even for very high profile cases, they operate differently.

I think Max put it very well earlier today.

Gin and It, delicious, oh and I don’t eat sweet biscuits, savoury taste for me.

@NR, if you are still there – my new computer arrived today, installed this afternoon, not a happy bunny with Amazon, promised delivery between the 19th and 29th June, 28th June received a mail from them ‘delivery between the 1st August and 15th September’ – order cancelled, pity really as it was the model I wanted.

So, internet order with Darty on Friday afternoon, delivered today. All my old stuff stored onto an external disc and it’s staying that way. Very disappointed with Amazon, up to now been very reliable.

C’est la vie, n’est ce pas ?

7-2-2013 at 19:30:49

@Lynda at 15:12:55

The video you linked for Frédéric Brun, shows text of a website “”. It’s about the local Savoyards, quite interesting to see the various video reports! It starts at the beginning – Produit de Savoie. 🙂

7-2-2013 at 19:58:46

7-2-2013 at 19:10:48

Here’s a very interesting recent article about Areva, uranium, Nigeria and Iran.

A bit of a toxic mix there, I think.

Funny, I just noticed Moustaf, one of the commenters uses one of Frédéric Brun’s catchphrases ‘C un peu tiré par les cheveux ..’

That’s the thing about learning a foreign language, you learn a new phrase and then find it pops up all over the place and you wonder how you ever lived without it before.

7-2-2013 at 20:05:07
7-2-2013 at 20:13:58

@ Max

The 257cm Wheel base. ( That would rule out any gen. X5)

You wrote: ” I’m also busy trying to calculate the wheel base (front-rear) with perspective correction. Assuming the front tyres started skidding when the rear tyres stopped skidding ”

I’m sorry,don’t think that assumption is correct…In most 4WD’s the rear and front wheels starts skidding almost simultaneously, in that situation(For X5 gen.1 a slight delay) up until ev. anti-slip systems kicks in.

Anyway, it must be very hard to decide a wheel base within a centimeter from 4WD skid tracks in loose gravel, it’s hard enough on tarmac/asphalt. 😉

A lot easier, in this case, to go for the rear track width.

7-2-2013 at 20:18:59

@ Ron, 7-2-2013 at 14:42:53

Give them just a liiiiiittle credit. The gendarmerie figured out from the start that those tracks were not left by Saad’s BMW.
(…) and police said tyre tracks showed another car had braked sharply at the scene.
Dramatic pictures last night showed the family’s bullet-ridden British-registered BMW 5-series with bullet holes in the windows. The car, which appeared to have a punctured rear tyre, had been reversed into the layby. Alongside it there were signs of a vehicle – possibly the attacker’s getaway car – braking sharply and the abandoned bicycle of a French fourth victim of the shootings lying nearby.

The question is whether those tracks have anything to do with the Chevaline killings at all. Police would have been able to date those tracks with an accuracy of +/- an hour by using the humidity of the topmost layer as a guide. If there is an expert tracker amongst the readership of this blog, he or she can tell their age from their colour alone. You all probably know this phenomenon from digging up garden patches: on dry days, the surface of undisturbed earth is dry and comparatively light-coloured because the sun has evaporated most of the moisture from it, whereas deeper layers are moister and thus darker-coloured. By taking one soil sample from the tyre tracks and one from the soil next to them and comparing the humidity at the top, police would have determined when those tracks were “plowed,” as it were.

7-2-2013 at 20:21:21


It is on Daily Motion,

I’ll ask Marilyn to pass it to you, you will need to connect to Facebook .

7-2-2013 at 20:46:47

@Peter, Zaid hung, drawn and quartered from two days after the murders…. by The Daily Express.

An observation, readers/people are sheep when it comes to media stories, please forgive me, our Zainab, there are many where independant thought is absent, comments are rife all over the internet, Muslim on Muslim and the rest.

They, we are sheep, because if it doesn’t affect us, for the majority we just don’t care.

7-2-2013 at 20:48:57

@ Peter

Ohh, I will ! Did not remember those articles. Thanks !

Pity they changed the scenario later, if indeed they were the insider source for the famous Le Monde drawing/article.

7-2-2013 at 21:22:37

@Peter, thx for those ‘other car’ article (now I start to remeber those from the early days)

@Ron, hmm, I’m no car buff. But I *DO* have a talent for spotting symmetry/harmony/elegance … It occured to me that in the frontwheel marks seem to be exactly as long as the break in the left rearwheel marks. Therefor, and with a little assumption that a 4WD would ‘work’ like this, I thought that the frontwheels started to spin at the moment the rearwheels stopped (so not all 4 together spinning) … and from there I can calculate the wheelbase.

If above is not correct … no problem, I will retract the calculation.

(noted however to other calculator wizzards: do take into account perspective correction, esp. when different element are rotated etc. I think we can neglect the spread/difference in angle in the pictures as there are taken with a big zoom)

Anyway, to cut it short … with TimV at it, with the ‘Peter articles’ and with my humble tryings, I think we can now ALL agree that the skid marks are NOT made by AH’s BMW and therefor conclude the ‘Le Monde animation’ is INCORRECT!

With EM saying

Q: Le scénario évoqué par le journal “Le Monde” sur le déroulement du meurtre est-il crédible ?

EM: « Cela n’engage que les journalistes. Ils n’ont pas eu accès au dossier, c’est un mensonge éhonté de l’affirmer. Leur schéma n’est pas inintéressant, mais le scénario doit être affiné. Et puis la façon exacte dont les choses se sont passées, les enquêteurs s’en moquent. Je veux dire par là que cela n’a d’intérêt que lorsqu’un suspect est interrogé, car c’est le seul moyen de savoir s’il dit vrai ou s’il s’accuse à tort. On sait aujourd’hui grosso modo ce qui s’est passé, le “comment” très précisément n’a plus d’importance. Ce qui compte, c’est qui et pourquoi ? Après, on peut continuer à affiner la scène, mais ce n’est plus ça qui nous amènera le ou les auteurs, et le pourquoi de leur geste.

And so, we can move on to the next thing …. c’est qui et pourquoi?

– M

7-2-2013 at 21:42:15


Thanks for that….wanted to be sure I had not missed anything while I have been travelling.

I will need to make a phone call tonight to go through this again and will post tomorrow after double checking the information.

Looks like EM may have struck again!

7-2-2013 at 21:49:05

@Max, so the answer was really there all the time, just that the press didn’t big it up, you will also see in time that there were two phone calls, both by Bossy, the first was ‘prevenu’, a warning, the second with greater detail.


7-2-2013 at 21:57:46

I’ll continue, this is how the third cyclist was missed, the VTTist that came back to the Duchers farm, the interview was by the local TV8 Mont Blanc, the morning after with Madame Lise Ducher.

All new arrivals at the scene, well at le, especially the Brits were only concerned about the British element, not the overall scene and certainly not the French locals that may well in the end hold the key.

@SeeBee, you’ve ‘missed’ loads, most not worth a sentence, please forgive my humour…..

7-2-2013 at 22:18:48


You are absolutely right. It is incredibly difficult to keep objective. But, you know, for me, it is a puzzle. Ok, I also was influenced by the ‘Le Monde’ graphic … I could be angry at those stupid gits, partly waisting 6 months, lol, but, in the end it was my own fault. I just ‘fell’ for their story.

But just as one is not angry at the numbers in a Sudoku, I am not angry at anyone … just a fresh start. Never be afraid to make mistakes, but also never be afraid to start from zero.

No problem;)

… Anyway, not all is lost. EM is looking at UK from the beginning. Does NOT mean he is absolutely sure about the UK, why else would he have continued to look for the ‘nutter’ and supposedly also at the SM side.

And since it is only a few weeks that they are lookiing for a RHD X5 … you wonder how he could have come to this ‘RHD BMW X5’ conclusion?

Ok, the X5 *could* come from tyre marks … but the RightHandDrive???

Lol, the RHD element MUST come from a witness! And EM has said that the ONF guy is that witness (and fairly credible because a ‘car nutt’)

– M

7-2-2013 at 22:19:30

@Oui, I’ve asked Marilyn to pas you the link to the video in which Frederic Brun appears, I know it won’t be tonight as she is already serial killing in Paris.

Dinner was fab, guests leave tomorrow, love them all, looking forward to have peace back, please don’t tell them I said that.

Nightcap awaits and it ain’t tea.

7-2-2013 at 22:20:38

Before I go … go …

I would dearly love to upset the apple cart, so here comes:

I am going through all past comments for Lars’s summary and I came across the following:

WHO was the “smartly dressed man” that witnesses describe as, “looking for the Al-Hilli’s” at the camping site? Stories stated that a “Balkan/Serbian was at the campsite looking for the Al Hilli family…What ever came of that? That and the weapon seem to be line with Serbian mafia/underground ties to Iraq that cannot be discounted.

The comment was made on 14 September, 2012 at 06.03.16.

Was anything ever said further about this smartly dressed man looking for Saad at the campsite?

7-2-2013 at 22:26:59

Time & Date: Wednesday 5 September 2012, around 15:30

Place: Lay-by Le Martinet on Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré, Les Bauges, 74210 Chevaline, Haute-Savoie, France

Weapon: Luger P06

Ammunition: calibre 7,65 mm, around 21-25 bullets used

Car (Al-Hilli): BMW 5 SERIES 525d SE 5dr Diesel

Bicycle (Sylvain Mollier): Unknown, race bike

Witness 1: William Brett Martin, born 21 June 1959, British originally from Auckland New Zealand, living in Brighton, house in Lathuile (2km from Route Forestière), latest known occupation: Boeing UK Training and Flight Services, former RAF-pilot (Phantom), married to Theresa Valerie Martin, born 12 November 1958, Airline purser, owner of Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited (founded on 14 Feb 2006), arrived on a mountain bike (Vélo tout terrain (VTT))

Witness 2: Philippe Didierjean/Bossy (name uncertain), born 5 April (?) 1971, described as an experienced local hiker (source Le Parisien), arrived in a car with two female friends

Witness 3: Laurent Fillion-Robin, born 1974, local builder, working at the time at the last house on Route de Chevaline in Chevaline, owned by Vivienne et John Beweek, saw the Al-Hilli family pass in their car

Witness 4: Melvin (“the gentle giant”), born 1997, on a trial motorcycle, living in Marceau Dessous, father Franck, both heard the shots

Witness 5: Denis Janin, shepherd, Col de Cherel, saw a motorcycle going in the direction towards Le Martinet at around 16:00 (source Le Parisien), wife Catherine Jeanin

Witness 6 (?): Sylvie Lecoeur, living in Chevaline, born 1963, seen a white car (Peugeot 206 or 306) speeding through Chevaline at around 16:00

Victim 1: Sylvain Mollier, born 26.02.1967, welder at Cezus (Areva) Ugine, living in Ugine, Haute Savoie, 3 children: Leo (1996), Mathis (1999) and Louis (2012), living with Claire Schutz pharmacist, born 7 Mai 1983, on a three-year leave of absence from Cezus
Relatives: father Roger Mollier (died 2011), born 1933
mother Suzanne Mollier
brothers Alain, Christophe, François
sister Sylviane
uncle Fernand Mollier
Previous mariage: ex-wife Lydie Ringot (Sclosa), hairdresser, Ugine
born 1970
Claire Schutz’s family:
father Thierry Schutz, pharmacist, born 15 Mai 1951, (former) owner of Pharmacie Schutz Morange , 73 Rue Joseph Martin, Grignon and Pharmacie de la Léchère, in La Léchère
mother Genevieve Schutz (Morange), born in 1954, orthopaedist
brother Laurent Schutz, biologist , Paris, born 11 August 1987
uncle Pierre Morange, doctor and politician, in Chambourcy, near Paris

Victim 2: Saad Al-Hilli, British citizen born 18 Jan 1962, residence Oaken Lane Claygate Surrey, School Pimlico London and Kingston University, self-employed CAD-engineer, owned a house/ruin in rue Amiral Courbet, Saint Macaire, France

surviving children Zainab (2005), Zeena (2008)
brother Zaid Al-Hilli, born 2 February 1959
Father Kadhim Al-Hilli , born 1919, died August 2011 (latest address Avenida Mejico, Mijas, Spain)
Mother Fasiha Al-Hilli, born 1931 died ?

Victim 3: Ikbal Al-Hilli, British citizen, born 1965, dentist, wife of Saad Al-Hilli

Victim 4: Suhaila Al-Allaf, Swedish citizen, born 1938 in Iraq, mother of Ikbal Al-Hilli, PhD in Biology, London

Prosecutor: Eric Maillaud, born 1962, Dario Zanni (commission rogatoire internationale)

Gendarmerie colonels: Lieutenant Colonel Benoît Vinnemann

Fraudster (?): Nigerian-born Abiodun David John, 33, allegedly trying to get into accounts in the name of Saad al-Hilli

Documentaries and Videos:

Suspect n°1 ( Les secrets de la tuerie de chevaline) (

The Alps Murders (

Alex’s video from Route Forestière (

Some important pictures:×351/271656_1.jpg

Please add!

7-2-2013 at 22:28:54

I’ve driven the Landrover Defender 110 for about two months in 2008 so if anyone wants to know anything about it please go ahead I’ll try!


7-2-2013 at 22:28:56

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins – 7-2-2013 at 22:20:38

The smartly dressed man apparently was an Italian tourist who had come into the campsite to use the swimming pool or other facilities iirc.

The receptionist at the camping site was interviewed and seemed very sure of this, again iirc.

7-2-2013 at 22:42:06

I commented directly into Lars’ summary but I can’t find that comment again so I am just summarizing up the few changes I made:

1.) The full location is Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré, Les Bauges, 74210 Chevaline, Haute-Savoie, France.

2.) I am sure Sylvain Mollier drove a road bike for I heard Eric Maillaud saying it in the “Suspect n° 1” feature.

3.) Aukland, NZ is Auckland, NZ.

4.) Sylvie Lecoeur saw a “white Peugeot 206 or 306”, at least that’s what the Daily Mail understood at that time.


7-2-2013 at 22:58:32

Max, to your 21:22:37
Indeed, I it looks like it’s high time to agree that the skid marks were NOT made by SAH’s BMW, but by another vehicle, which may or may not have contained the killers.

before getting to motives, as you keep asking, may be it would profit us to consider the implications of that second vehicle on the scene – to at least frame whatever suggestion of motives is offered?. So, what can we surmise so far, based only on the facts as they are known and/or conjectured but with high likelihood?

To me, ignoring less feasible conjectures for a moment, four facts would seem to follow all your and others’ tireless calculations and reviews of the tracks, following which, 2 more points could be made with relatively high likelihood:

1. They were likely made by a 4×4, FWD, likely a SUV.

It would seem that a majority now converges on this point, every other alternative having been considered and found wanting.

2. From the freshness of the tracks, they are not likely to have been there for a long time, therefore, chances are the responsible vehicle was there a short time before the pictures were taken.

High likelihood of time coincidence with the murderous events.

3. There is evidence of braking, possibly a short distance in front of the BMW’s final location, and likely blocking a forward motion by the BMW.

The story Peter brought up mentions abrupt braking. I pointed out (in the last thread) that the arch of the skid marks likely takes the responsible vehicle to a position at some angle to the BMW’s position, where it must have come to a stop (did not get a reply to my query, so am assuming it was nothing new?). this point needs further comment, IMO.

4. If the maneuvering vehicle is indeed associated with killer X, cf. point 2 above, there was at least a two person team involved in the killing.

One would have to have fired the original shots, probably at SM, starting the escape attempt by SAH, while the other is the driver, who sprung into action at about the same time SAH got into the car. it is next to impossible to surmise that one killer could have fired some shots, got into the car, maneuvered in a half-circle to block SAH’s forward escape, then got out and shot them all again. Such a sequence allows SAH enough time to probably run for the car, get in and get out. i doubt a driver executing such a rapid circular maneuver would be able to aim and shoot at the same time, apply brakes at just the right position then get out again and finish the shooting.

As an aside, if there was one shooter, outside the car, that would correspond with Zainab’s statement of “one bad man” as that is all she would see, before losing consciousness.

5. The positions of the victims – SAH and perhaps Zainab, are on the passenger side of the BMW, right where the blood stains are. SM’s body could have been “pushed” or “dragged” by the maneuvering vehicle towards the wheels of the BMW, but it would be a very short distance due to the lack of abrasions noted by WBM (assuming we believe his account).

6. SM’s bicycle is somewhere else – out of the way.

Whether or not it was at the location hinted by the DE photo or some distance away, is not known for sure. If it is at the other end of the lay BY than SAH’s BMW, then the preponderance of evidence must lead us to surmise that he stopped of his own accord, dismounted an walked over towards the lay By, likely intending to engage with either SAH, who may have been outside the vehicle by then, or with whoever the occupant(s) of the other vehicle were.

But Point 6, if accepted, leads inescapably to another conclusion:

7. SM came to a meeting, which must have been pre-arranged.

Lots of other indications to suppose that, but especially the route SM followed which was out of character for a high end bike.

So where does that leave us?

Certainly an entangled Mollier. A team of killers (at least two). Which feeds into the local “conspiracy of silence”. And possibly helps explain EM’s confusion sewing statements an diversions.

I believe that in hyopothesizing about motives, the above facts and high probability conjectures should be taken into account in coming up with a script.

Remaining unexplained (which allows plenty of diverging ‘scripts”::

A. SAH’s role. We cannot conclude he was part of the meeting, but we cannot exclude that possibility either.

One thing we do know: if he AND Zainab got out of the car, he must have felt confident of his – and more importantly – her safety. Did he walk over to the other car which may have been there already? we don’t know. Did he know the occupants? ditto. Was he part of the “meeting” non lo so.

B. WBM role.

Could be totally innocent, just as he said. Or he could be part of whatever was going down. more indications for the latter than the former, IMNSHO.

C. Bossy role

Again, could be “hiking”. Or could be “cleaning up”. No way to state one way or another based on witness’s statements alone. At this point, I have no opinion on this matter (well, there’s something…).

7-2-2013 at 22:59:56

@Marilyn Z. at 22:20:38

About upsetting the apple cart …

Of course Italian men are smartly dressed all year round. The statement came from a witnesses staying at the camping who never met the al-Hilli family but was sure this “east-european” person acted suspiciously. The camping manager later said the person made a normal reservation and left on the agreed date. Nothing to see here, a “witness” wanted to read her story in the paper.

From a post eons ago …

The so-called mystery man from the Balkans led to the media speculating the weapon of choice of an East-Euopean terrorist. That’s how the Skorpion sub-machine gun came into play – Skorpion Gun Favoured By Terrorists. The camping manager later stated the man in suit was an Italian staying at the camping and left later.

7-2-2013 at 23:15:48

@Martin at 22:58:32

See my earlier comment, essentials are the same. [Oui 7-1-2013 at 09:17:20]


I’m just about fed-up with EM as PR commander of the Chambéry/Annecy prosecution team. The inaccuracies, misplaced elements, misleading information has led me to believe in an alterior motive.

I now doubt that SM’s wounded body was dragged by AH’s BMW in reverse. SM’s body would have shown more abrasion, BM’s testimony doesn’t confirm any of those injuries.

I have to look at the timeline again of all actors on that 3km stretch of road within a 30 minute period. As I recall, I wondered how SAH managed to arrive ahead of SM at the parking without overtaking him during the climb. Perhaps the sequence was the other way around: the dark 4×4 vehicle was parked at Martinet, a driver and killer X. SM was apprehended to stop at barrier, dismounted from his race bike, shot in cold blood and fell to ground near bike and close to the barrier where the 4×4 was parked. The killing was interupted by arrival of the SAH family, the BMW Estate could be seen from 100m distance. The driver gets back in 4×4, killer X hides nearby in the brush.

Read on …

7-2-2013 at 23:27:23

@Alexander, Lars
Crime scene is in Doussard and not Chevaline, right side of the stream.,45.729891991188&z=0.000023850093405160265&l=ORTHOIMAGERY.ORTHOPHOTOS::GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS(1)&l=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.MAPS.3D::GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS==aggregate(1)&permalink=yes

7-2-2013 at 23:29:16
At 7:36, there is a police mark on the road… I’m trying to figure out which part of the road it could be… any idea?

7-2-2013 at 23:35:24

Sorry it is at 6:47, 6:48.

7-2-2013 at 23:43:52

I’m almost sure it is near the second sign where Alex turned the car before parking. You can se the two road signs on the road on the left.

7-3-2013 at 00:26:15


Yes, I know but I think that it is more important that Chevaline is the closest village.


I add that.

7-3-2013 at 02:46:30

7-2-2013 at 19:22:51 says:

“@Tim V 7-2-2013 at 18:47:04 I think you’re mixing up your Molliers and Maillauds. ”

I’ve just checked and of course you (and the so aggressive Lynda) are both right and thanks for pointing it out. My addled early morning brain! I will double check on names before I type in future for sure. I hope everybody got the gist of what I was trying to say despite my obvious fallibility.

As regards to Lynda (@ Lynda
7-2-2013 at 18:40:29) to add to your earlier insults I am a “bully” now am I? That’s a very sharp arrow for a woman to throw at a man and much more effective than the other way around. The “weaker sex” and all that.

However you should always endeavour to use it advisedly and only with good reason. In what way am I a bully pray? How can presenting an argument based on the facts as we know them be “bullying”. I am always prepared to be corrected if I can be shown to be wrong – as when I stupidly typed “Mollier” instead of “Maillaud” above.

You should never slander someone (for to accuse someone of being a bully without justification it surely is) just because you don’t agree with their argument. I thought the idea, in the land of Voltaire and Rousseau
was dispassionate reason alone?

The German philosopher (while we’re at it) Immanuel Kant summed up the program of the Enlightenment in two Latin words: “sapere aude, dare to know — have the courage to think for yourself”.

To which it may be apposite to add three well known quotes of the Englishman/Irishman Edmund Burke’s:

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”.

“Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security”.

“He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper”.

Incidentally I hope your Martini went down well. “Shaken not stirred” was it?

7-3-2013 at 03:06:31

From Mochyn69
7-2-2013 at 20:05:07

“The ideal radio for paragliding
This dual-band VHF-UHF allow you, among other things, access to the frequency FFVL (French Federation of Free Flight) on VHF (143.9875 MHz) . This safety frequency to communicate with the rescue in case of accident.
You can also communicate with walkie-talkies public PMR446 running on 446 MHz UHF frequency. ”

Could this be one solution to the question I posed at the very beginning how the Pompiers picked up the message before anyone else seemingly and how the logged call (reportedly) at 3.48 could not have been made by any of the early arrivals? I had the audacity to suggest they may have picked up a communication from the killing gang itself!!!!!!!!!!

7-3-2013 at 03:53:46

7-2-2013 at 22:58:32 good summary. Pretty much accords with my own previously posted.

I think you are right to make inference as I have the fact that SM apparently WENT PAST SAH in the first instance and got off his bike quite normally. Because we know there was a vehicle up there that was not the Al Hilli’s it is reasonable to conclude the two facts are not unrelated. My hunch is that SM first made contact with whoever was in that vehicle.

Now down the other end, SAH gets out of his vehicle whether before or after the 4WD arrives we do not know. We do know however he does not appear to make to get back in and drive off until the attack commences. So until this point was reached we may conclude he felt no risk to his safety of which he would be particularly aware given his past and family present.

Next, this was not a solely SM attack with the Al Hilli’s killed just for being witnesses. If it had been SM would have been shot at the top and then the attack would have centred on the Al Hilli’s. No, the blood splatter evidence, if it can be relied upon, prove the shooting did not start until SM and the Al Hilli’s were standing TOGETHER!

From this we must conclude SM walked over to them. Note the Al Hilli’s do not appear to be his first point of call or he would have surely have dismounted at that end. Indeed where all the early reports placed him. Further in the moments before he meets with the Al Hilli’s there is no sign of panic. That can only happen when the attack first begins where the blood stains indelibly mark the spot.

My hypothetical reconstruction therefore has the Al Hilli BMW arriving about 3.00 pm. The SUV having overtaken BOTH WBM and SM on the way up at about 3.25 pm. SM arriving almost immediately after, dismounting at the SUV, making cursory contact with the occupant(s) walking across the car park to SAH and ZAH, whereupon the attack immediately began marked by aggressive acceleration of the SUV in a semi-circular move towards where they stood, possibly striking SM and ZAH in the process .

If the shooter was in the passenger seat it would facilitate his exit to the RHS for a firing position towards the BMW and the retreating SAH fully compatible and consistent with the damage and bullet marks on the BMW.

Of course this reconstruction does not incorporate a motor bike rider who apparently was somewhere doing something which we can reasonably assume was supportive of the attack. Maybe he provided the “pincer” movement blocking the exit that forced SAH to choose reverse rather than forward gear?

7-3-2013 at 03:59:50

Needless to say if the vehicle was in fact RHD as has been recently hinted at, the passenger would get out on the opposite side to that suggested above. I don’t think this fits quite so well for firing lines but that’s just my opinion for what it’s worth. (And now I really must get to bed!)

7-3-2013 at 04:56:42

@ Bibi:

Highly probable (80%) it’s the hairpin bend as you wrote, although it might be any other turn on the road.


7-3-2013 at 07:25:19


What I would like to know is when you are commenting at 4 a.m. have you not yet gone to bed or are you already up?

Alex, thank you for your input to Lars’s summary.

Lars, thank you for the work you are doing for us by compiling the summary.

Rashomon & Oui thank you for the info about the ‘smartly dressed man’.

George, a.k.a. Geroge, the authorities decided it was Chevaline and not Doussard.

Tim V, please leave Lynda alone. And please do not make it necessary for me to ask you this again. This is not a schoolroom, or if it is, do wipe that porridge blob off your school tie.

7-3-2013 at 07:41:48

The smartly dressed man, whomever he was, apparently needed a Euro to use the pool, I also read that he was someone who worked in a local restaurant that was allowed to use said pool.

If it was the Italian, then he took his flight as planned.

As Marilyn and others have pointed out witnesses are unreliable.

This is the first ‘action’, my new computer has seen, now on Windows 8, something else to get used to.

7-3-2013 at 09:01:55

I was going to give you all a dose of my personal philosophy in response to TMV but instead I ask

How do the ONF guys communicate with each other when out and about?

7-3-2013 at 09:05:23


Once, by means of what anyone over 40 calls a walkie-talkie and what the French call a talkie-walkie.

I leave our modern technology whizzkids tell you how they do it today. (I may just tell you they have a messenger whose means of transport is an ox-wagon.)

7-3-2013 at 09:14:07

This is Corsica of course, ‘reglement de compte’ between builders and estate agents, what is the world coming to:

7-3-2013 at 09:31:20


That’s Corsica!

At least they kept their guns in their holsters until the Tour de France had passed.

7-3-2013 at 09:46:18

@Lars, Summary looks really good,

Witnesses to add: Paul Ducher, the farmer, interviewed by BBC Radio 4, The Report – Bossy and friends went there after leaving the scene. Thinks he may have seen the BWM an hour before.

Lise Ducher, interviewed by TV8 Mont Blanc the morning after, spoke with the VTT, third cyclist, that had approached the scene and turned back.

So, Third Cyclist, unknown, VTT rider, cycled up to Martinet, see above.

I’ll get the links later.

7-3-2013 at 10:29:40

Re: Corsica

vendetta (n.)
1855, from Italian vendetta “a feud, blood feud,” from Latin vindicta “revenge” (see vindictive). Especially associated with Corsica.

7-3-2013 at 10:41:35

@Bibi, Alex

It is the ‘Alex turn’

Very well spotted Bibi!!!!!

wth does it mean … it imho AT LEAST means that X ‘was there’ (because I have to assume that no AH, SM or BM or PD went this far)

So again … well spotted Bibi;)

– M

7-3-2013 at 11:39:25

@ Marilyn
You were asking about the Balkan man, later claimed to be a well-dressed Italian man by the campground hosts:
“Find the mystery Balkan… Meanwhile it emerged that Iraqi-born engineer Saad and his family fled their French campsite hours after seeing the stranger and just two days into their caravanning trip… Tourist Eli Draaisma, 64, said the man was searching “every corner” of the Camping Europa site.”

Like how The Sun has the al Hillis “fleeing” the first camp.

When we were counting countries nobody thought of the former Yugoslavia: “Police inquiries into the case have spread to a number of other countries including Iraq, the former Yugoslavia and Switzerland.”

Did we miss a clue; a Rambo movie? “Yesterday police carried three large evidence bags from the Al-Hillis’ home and put them into the boot of an unmarked car. A white disc could be seen in one, with the words “Speed 1”, “Grindayser” and “Rambo” on the front. Grindayser is an Arabic cartoon.”

For the facts list; the judges: “Michel Mollin, who is overseeing the hunt for the killers, and Christine de Curraize, also an investigating magistrate, will travel to Britain tomorrow with Eric Maillaud, the prosecutor in Annecy, France.”

On the bike/not-bike, I see not-bike. Two undamaged wheels, which may well be bike wheels, connected by an axle or cross-piece, with what might be a hitch pointing to the right or uphill. Somebody suggested lighting equipment. Or maybe a small cart or trailer. What the white “frame” is, that appears to be damaged, I don’t know. Crime scene tape or electric cable?

7-3-2013 at 12:09:22

@Bibi, Alex,

The fun thing is that on you can just see a person very near that red spot.


– M

7-3-2013 at 12:35:55

@ Max, Alex,
I was wondering what that mark could be. Even if this is a space reference mark for measurements (as there is another one in the middle of the road near the “entrance” of the car park) it shows this end of the road must have a relevance.
Bien vu, Max!

7-3-2013 at 12:49:36

@ Bibi, 7-3-2013 at 12:35:55

That is a survey mark, just like the one next to the Martinet lay-by. They are even sequentially numbered: the one next to the Martinet bears the number 5000, yours 5001. These marks have nothing to do with the police investigation (although I have raised the point before whether this recent survey activity might mean that the signage around the Martinet had recently been replaced as well, which might be an explanation of how SM could have “lost” his way).

7-3-2013 at 12:52:22

Chevaline or not?
I think it was rather the journalists who put the crime scene to Chevaline, provoked by EM’s poor but not incorrect information, e.g.
The touristic place Doussard did not appear in the international headlines. Not a big deal for the discussion here but it teaches us a lesson on how EM informs. Rusé comme un renard, methinks.

Reference to Doussard and some other interesting stuff,

7-3-2013 at 13:04:30

@Max and Bibi,

Your photo:

Really zoom in and you can see a white shape Under the tree opposite the information sign. I’ve also upped the pixels.

It doesn’t look to be as flat to the ground as in the Daily Express photo, two points, the Red Emergency vehicle would have had to pass it if it were the ‘original’ poistion of the bike and when on zoom, there are marks on the road, maybe tyre marks, that lead backwards, follow them with your eye and see where they end up.

Of course it could just be nothing.

7-3-2013 at 13:05:22
7-3-2013 at 13:34:51


His ‘theory’ is interesting. Also the ‘traffic’ in the morning.

7-3-2013 at 13:43:20

thanks! Now, it is obvious why he knows what is Chevaline and what not. He sits right on the boarder there.

sorry for spelling your name in such a horrible way before. I will copy and paste it in future 😉

7-3-2013 at 14:05:45

@ Peter (at 12:49)
It’s true that the red tape is just after Lynda’s tree – opposite the information sign –
But what’s the point in showing these red numbers if not made by the police? Just to show a bit of red here and there ???

7-3-2013 at 14:29:14

So tiresome to rid people of Daily Fail and the Sun controversial journalism …

This explanation was carried by both The Independent and The Guardian 0m Sept. 11, 2012.

A manager, who refused to give her name, said: “They [al-Hilli family] came to stay with us on Saturday evening and left on Monday. That was pre-planned – they were here for just a few days.”

She dismissed suggestions that Mr al-Hilli behaved oddly during his stay, adding: “There was nothing strange. All families leave the campsite at all sorts of times to run errands, go to the shop, organise activities, that sort of thing.”

And she said comments about a mysterious man described as appearing “to come from the Balkans” were “ridiculous”. She said: “That was an Italian man who was here. He left and got on his plane as was planned.”

Now 10 months later …

7-3-2013 at 14:35:25

@George at 12:52:22

Quite interesting what the locals say!

Sweeper on the Combe d’Ire

“I especially know the hiking trail that goes from the parking lot to the intersection between Arnand and Giez which almost nobody spoke about. I went there once, it was the next night, on horseback and with a neighbor. But everything had been swept and cleaned, there was nothing to see, only a few traces of ground markers.”

Q. Do you have your own theory about what happened?
“The guy was surprised by the cyclist, discovered the family and panicked. A professional would not have made so much trouble. For me, it is a local person.”

7-3-2013 at 14:50:07

@Oui, can you post the bit about the ‘robbing’ that takes place in the car parks, from the same article ?

The place/track that interests me is the one beside the second information sign at the hairpin bend where Max turned back, I have had a photo of the old wooden post for sometime, which is just after the modern plastified cream sign.

Up the track, it is a track rather than a road, there is a sort of rope/wood bridge that crosses the Ire in the direction of Charbon, without doubt it is another route to escape, not by car.

Even Claude has mentioned the track that ends up in the parking nearer to Doussard, was that St Rulph, we have discussed this before, very zigzag would take a while on foot, do-able before all sorts of cordons were put in place, apparently that took two hours.

7-3-2013 at 16:11:12

7-2-2013 at 23:15:48

I make the arrivals and likely times as follows:

1st. Al Hilli 3.00 pm

2nd. “X” 3.25 pm

3rd. SM 3.25 – 3.30 pm

SHOOTING 3.30 – 3.35 pm

4th. WBM 3.35 – 3.40 pm

5th. PD/B 4.00 pm?

6th SAPEURS 4.15 pm?

7th AMB/DOC 4.20 pm?

8th GENDARME 4.25 pm?

We don’t know the number used to call the emergency services. We presume 112. Fire & accident/Sapeurs Pompiers it appears have a separate number (18) from landline. Presumably they arrived first because they were closest rather than being directed to be there first or telephoned direct?

7-3-2013 at 16:20:25


BBC Radio 4 The Report, – Paul Ducher:

Lise Ducher interview, courtesy of Bibi:

7-3-2013 at 16:25:35

Maybe we shouldn’t forget the ‘motorbike’ directed to the authorised route by the ONF around 15:15 (Liberation), above Martinet ……..

7-3-2013 at 16:44:22

From Georges link, Claude Antoine, of Route du Moulin:

“Tout était vraiment très calme et puis soudain, nous avons vu défiler, en l’espace de quinze minutes, un véhicule de pompiers, puis un deuxième et un troisième et enfin deux fourgonnettes de la gendarmerie. ”

@Bibi, do you have any links to his other interviews, as said by him given to all and sundry, one that contains an approximate time the 15 minutes took place ?

Paul Ducher, spoke with one of the early arrivals (emergency vehicles) on the Chevaline side, before they went up to Martinet, he says about an hour after he thinks he may have seen the BMW, Bossy says they arrived minutes after the phone call, (a second call – please see my reasoning, the first being at 15:48, the second nearer 16:00 giving full details, the first being a warning that something had happened).

Neither Claude, Fillon-Robin or the Duchers say they saw any vehicle pass from Martinet, of course one could have and been missed, when you’re not looking you don’t see.

I’d like to see Claudes other interviews, be they on film or in print, svp.

7-3-2013 at 17:03:45

News Live – earliest footage of emergency vehicles passing by the single blue Gendarmerie vehicle blocking entry to 3km climb to Martinet parking. Notice also how quickly a helicopter was at the scene. Anyone make a guess of exact time of this video? I dare to say before 16:30 hours.

7-3-2013 at 17:15:05


It is simple … This is Marilyn’s blog.

– M

7-3-2013 at 17:32:25


… is a great find(!)

Because this guy is actually talking about the ‘parallel route’ (an idea I had come up with a long time ago)

Q: Vous connaissez bien les lieux du drame ?

A: « Comme ma poche. J’y montais souvent à cheval auparavant. Je connais surtout le chemin de randonnée qui va du parking jusqu’au croisement entre Arnand et Giez et dont presque personne n’a parlé. »

This parallel route could have been used to escape … but if X used it to ‘escape’ he also could have used it to arrive … and if the case it would certainly point at someone with LOCAL knowledge(!) … Btw, when I proposed the ‘parallel route scenario’ I at that moment still thought the motorbiker seen by BM was Killer X

(but this now longer seems to be the case as EM is only asking for a X5, and another motorbiker above Martinet)

But … great find George!

– M

7-3-2013 at 17:39:21

‘Suspect Numero 1’ – Stéphane Bouchet, from the Dauphine says that the information was recieved at the agency about 16:30.

@Max, problem is he says they didn’t see anything that afternoon, as I said doesn’t mean there wasn’t anything, they saw vehicles in the morning.

I promised myself I wouldn’t go back over the tyre tracks, did you come to a conclusion as to what the small tyre tracks were, a bit further over from the main ones ? Could they be from someone breaking front end in ?

7-3-2013 at 17:43:18

To recap the ‘parallel route scenario’ … in short:

– SM is target
– X (motorbike) follows SM from home (X knows about destination Martinet)
– Arriving in Arnand X is sure about SM going to Martinet
– X takes parallel route to be at Martinet before SM
– (interesting could be the bibi marker beyond the barrier)
– X comes from behind the barrier
– SM arrives
– X strikes
– AH’s are collateral
– X escapes via parallel route

Old animation is

– M

PS: this scenario possibly is outdated (but no harm in recapping it)

7-3-2013 at 17:50:38


The ‘parallel route’ does not pass the house of that guy (it is more in the woods)

All four tyre marks are from the same car(!) … I know it doesn’t look like that, but after taking a better look the ARE the same(!)

And I am pretty sure the marks are caused by driving backward (so NOT by braking)

– M

7-3-2013 at 18:14:17

@Max, here is Oui’s original PDF from way back – there isn’t a parallel route shown on it:

This is the brochure for visitors to the area.

The route you refer to starts in Arnand as the Chemin de la Combette, then Chemin Rural du Pré des Granges Ugeret, then Chemin Rural dit Ancien Chemin de la Combe d’Yre, then choice of a small track or join the Route Forestiere for the last few hundred metres.

I tell you what if you are any where near the truth with that it sure is someone who knows that ‘neck of the woods’ very well !

7-3-2013 at 18:32:10


Thank you for the Ducher links but could you please help me, the BBC program is 28 minutes long (!) , I listened to it earlier, but don’t remember Ducher. Do you know when they appear, or could you tell me what they said?

The same for the TV8. There are no names! Which ones are the Duchers? Could you give a very short summary of what they said?

Does anyone know where the Duchers live? On Route de Chevaline?

7-3-2013 at 18:42:54

Radio 4 – Paul Ducher, near the beginning I think, he’s the farmer.

In the TV8 – Lise Ducher isn’t named, but she’s the lady on the balcony of the farmers house opposite the Beweeks wooden chalet that Fillon-Robin and his mate were working on.

Just before the end of Chevaline…… the photo that appears on the Radio 4 page for the programme is theirs.

7-3-2013 at 19:14:28

Here are the links for tv8 montblanc
Flash spécial: 6 septembre 2012 (9:00)
If you want the interviews only this is the one: Témoignages des Habitants 06/09/2012 (3:08)
+ Survey mark near the Hairpin at 4:02, repeated at 6:47, 6:48. (see Peter 7-3-2013 at 12:49:36=
Do you want the script of L Ducher?

Interview of L Ducher
– Vous avez vu apparemment le cycliste qui redescendait de là-bas et qui apparemment a découvert la scene de crime -je serais tenté de dire- ?
– Non, nous on a vu un vététiste qui a vu le cycliste. Donc ce serait un Anglais qui montait par la Combe d’Ire qui a été doublé par le pauvre cycliste qui s’est fait tuer, et quand il est arrivé sur la place du Martinet, donc, il a vu ce qui était arrivé, il aurait retourné la jeune fille et serait descendu appeler des secours et il a rencontré des gens qui montaient pour aller dormir dans un gite et qui sont redescendus pour aller appeler les secours.
– Et il vous a raconté quoi ce vététiste ?
– Ben, pas grand-chose… il a vu comme ça… il y avait un cycliste par terre et lui il est vite redescendu parce qu’on l’a fait redescendre… il devait peut-être y avoir déjà des gens sur place…
– Choqué, véritablement, hein, quand même ?
– Ah oui oui oui, il avait la chair de poule partout
– Et du sang sur les mains apparemment. …. quand il a voulu peut-être retourner… ?
– Oui, disons… le cycliste anglais, oui, qui a retourné… mais lui, on ne l’a pas vu !

7-3-2013 at 19:35:26

@Lynda @Max

[George on 7-2-2013 at 23:27:23] Above a more detailed map was made available, one needed to copy the full [broken] URL, or else click on link below. These tracks were available last fall and the options have been discussed on this blog. On this track, perhaps a motorbike could travel (Bois de Droz) and runs parallel to a mountainous ridge, connects to the road behind and above parking Martinet. From the second hairpin curve, this hiking trail faces a steep climb to the top of the ridge and down to the village of Giez. As the witness from Doussard stated, no car or SUV can travel this track to Giez, perhaps not even a motorbike. To double-back to Arnand should be possible.

Geoportail map: hiking trails between Arnand and Giez.

As was discussed before, some 400m below Martinet is an intersection which leads to the track. I called it a “fork” in the road Route de la Combe d’Ire. 🙂

7-3-2013 at 20:01:19

You seem to know more details about Ikbal than I do !
do you by any chance have her method of making onion fried potato ?
or humus ?
If you dont i may have to change my name to not quite so FB !!!!

7-3-2013 at 20:02:31


FYI: I see that you forgot to close the second thread for comments (started 8 Sept)

7-3-2013 at 20:07:07
7-3-2013 at 20:32:36

13 °C on Le Solitaire du Lac today (in the air!), brrr!

7-3-2013 at 20:35:44


If I find that recipe I will certainly tell you. 😉

7-3-2013 at 20:51:35


Transcript from BBc Radio 4, The Report: Annecy Killings, dated 27th September, Reporter Simon Cox.

About 2 minutes in:

Simon Cox “Paul Duchers Dairy Farm is the last property on the road before reaching the forest. He believes he saw the Al-Hilli family driving past on what would be their final journey.

“An hour later a group of hikers stopped outside his property, clearly shaken, they had discovered the crime scene shorty after the shootings”

Moo! Moo!

Paul Ducher, ” J’ai …… “I saw the rescue services come past and slow down and wave their hands in a way that said ‘that’s not good’. So, I approached them and asked them what had happened and then they told me there were, um, three, four dead, a cyclist who was lying next to the car and in the car three people who were dead and then the girl also lying on the floor, the woman told me she was still moving”.

Simon Cox, ‘But there was another witness that got there before them….”.

7-3-2013 at 21:03:03

The parallel route surely can be used to start.

If you can all the way to Martinet with a motorbike? Perhasp crossmotor. I guess so.

Anyway, the parallel road would make this a LOCAL killing (robbery, nutter, perhaps SM=target … but certainly NOT AH=target)

The fun is of course that Bibi’s ‘marker’ perhaps opens up the possibility for the ‘parallel road’ (but it also could be the Col De Cherel stuff)

– M

7-3-2013 at 21:20:01


re: 2nd thread

Lars, I did not know. Did you see the three crazy comments that slipped through. I have now trashed them.

7-3-2013 at 21:25:33

Quite a day. I was deep into another murder today. Rather, another killer: Landru.There is an exhibition about him on in Paris now.

Waiting for two guests to come for dinner, so must rush.

Tomorrow is another day when I am sure there will be more brilliant comments here on *our* blog.

7-3-2013 at 21:32:38


Yes I noticed them. 🙂



The Duchers seem to be selling fruit and vegetables, but their address is Chef Lieu, Chevaline. Lies close to Route de Chevaline, but doesn’t fit with the last house on that road.

No mention of any additional biker (except WBM) in that interview then?

7-3-2013 at 21:45:30

See how it looks like up there between la combe d’Ire and Giez. Quite beautiful… And you can see some of the tracks…
Pointe de Vélan, Massif des bauges

I have read somewhere that they had used vouchers for the Europa, do you know about it? If true, it could be a good reason for going there first and then swap to the Solitaire, they already knew and where they had met people …+ cheaper.

7-3-2013 at 21:47:33
7-3-2013 at 21:51:25

Apropos recipe, there was an interview with the famous English cook Jamie Oliver recently on Swedish television. On the show was also a Swedish artist, whose English pronounciation was not so good. They were talking about Jamie’s cookbooks, and the artist said he liked cookbooks, but he pronounced it cock-books 🙂 . Jamie started laughing of course, and said he was very willing to write cock-books as well, if the public wished it.

7-3-2013 at 21:54:20
7-3-2013 at 21:55:31


Thanks, I can email Paul then and ask. 🙂

7-3-2013 at 21:57:15


i dont know Saads Log on ID for this site
but he did have one

also he used ryanair to book flights to Sweden for his Father in laws funeral
that was when the ash cloud was on

7-3-2013 at 22:00:30

@ Fat Bastard

My middle name is Mini-Me. So please keep on your tea and biscuits diet and please don’t put me in your belly..

Otherwise, I spent a little time in the Emirates in the early 70s so I wouldn’t know the scenes you may have later shared with James or others. Back then, bugs were the primary concern of western visitors, and I don’t mean lady-bugs.

7-3-2013 at 22:14:31

@ Peter 7-3-2013 at 12:49:36 “@ Bibi, 7-3-2013 at 12:35:55”
“That is a survey mark, just like the one next to the Martinet lay-by. They are even sequentially numbered: the one next to the Martinet bears the number 5000, yours 5001. These marks have nothing to do with the police investigation…”

The 5000 one has an evidence marker with measurement scale beside it, so the forensic techs must have thought (mistakenly?) it might be evidence and took pic. This is the one most photographed by press, some with a pointing finger in frame to give relative size. There’s also 5001 as you mentioned and another 7001 with no evidence marker.

I thought at one time (after it was pointed out these are survey markers) they were made to provide reference points for measurements of the crimes scene. But then the police wouldn’t confuse them with evidence.

Strange that the paint looks very fresh and undisturbed, even by the sweeper.

7-3-2013 at 22:26:07

@NR, Peter,

A while ago I posted a report that included the plans to turn Martinet into a picnic area and open the road to cars past it along the tarmac road, a further couple of kilometres, with parking for 42 cars ! Discussed putting in toilets as well !!

This was dated 2009, I think, with a cost attributed to it, maybe these markings were from surveyors linked to this idea.

7-3-2013 at 22:44:14

@Lynda & Bibi

What do you make of Lise Ducher’s statement “nous on a vu un vététiste qui a vu le cycliste” ?
To me it seems a little muddled. Does she mean Mollier = the cyclist, and WBM = the VTT-biker? Meaning she met WBM but never saw Mollier?

So one report says that the hikers stopped outside their house on the way back, and the other says that WBM also stopped at their house on the way back? Correct?

7-3-2013 at 22:57:47

Paul & Lise Doucher – Élevage de vaches laitières

Wouldn’t this be the dairy farm seen at the bottom of the climb to Martinet. Remember the video with melk cows passing through? Their home could be elsewhere. Or the last house with a balcony here.

(This blog) See_Bee 5-1-2013 at 23:13:06 Ducher mentioned in interview Le Parisienne

Concours agricole « Prairies Fleuries du Massif des Bauges » {re: Paul Ducher is mentioned]

Notre première année d’existence s’est terminée très positivement, puisque, en Mars, nous sommes passés devant le notaire pour finaliser notre première acquisition : une parcelle de pré de 3000 m2 à Chevaline, exploitée par le GAEC de la Combe d’Ire, qui sera, donc, notre locataire… et nous travaillons, déjà, sur d’autres acquisitions.

7-3-2013 at 23:06:15

I think you may be confusing a Mike Myers character from 1999
we me Named and registered in 1996 😉

And I think you were in the Trucial States all those years ago
(my Grandfather was in Bazra in 1914 …)

7-3-2013 at 23:11:07

@ Lars
She says that she saw a VTT-biker who saw the English biker, and then she tells about WBM… how he saw the cyclist (SM), the girl, and how he started to come down and met people…. But she makes clear at the end that she didn’t see the English biker.

7-3-2013 at 23:14:44


Nope, there was (yet) another cyclist (on VTT) who did meet/see both BM and PD+2female … Iirc that VTTist also went up to Martinet to see, and appearently there were already ‘gens’ there. I guess ‘gens’ = gendarmes

The VTTist DID see a biker on the ground (SM) before he was directed away by said ‘gens’. Iirc the VTTist also saw BM (as said) covered with blood.

(the account feels ok, and for me, adds to the idea that BM/PD is ok too … just a feeling though)

– M

7-3-2013 at 23:26:51

maybe Eric Maillaud doesnt want to publish Saad’s last photo
Because he thinks the muggles might see it ?

*this is not Fact just a whimsey *

7-3-2013 at 23:35:00


Thanks. I missed the last sentence. I still don’t understand who is meant with “cycliste” in the first question, but it doesn’t matter.

That means that the hikers and WBM did not leave Le Martinet at the same time/by the same road.

7-3-2013 at 23:35:23

But, I’m getting a bit tired myself of all these ‘Martinet’ details. Afaik EM is now more on the WHO and WHY, and is not so much into the HOW anymore.

Appearently he is only after the RHD X5 (and a motorbike above Martinet)
He kinda ruled out SM=Target and the ‘nutter’

I dont know/understand how he can be sure of the RHD (BMW X5) stuff??? RHD can only be from a ‘witness’ … and that has to be the ONF car nutt

Now if his whole UK enterprise depends on this one ONF car nutt guy …. ????

With nutter and SM closed down and the Zaid trail seemingly gone nowhere yet … what options DOES EM have?

So, yes, I want to leave the details a bit behind and PAN OUT … wth is this all about?

And what I have trouble with is to accept the seemingly unbalance in ‘focus’. Ok, perhaps it is all about AH (UK) … but Jeez, look at the ‘focus’. Zaid being brought in for questioning and with the press all over the place and him …. but on the SM front, they celebrate SMjr 1 birthday with no mention of SM, but facebook ‘likes’ as if it is snowing and even the 2 grls appearing to be the best of friends.

I mean, I truly hope it *IS* like that …. otherwise this is all true Hitchcockian … with Zaid the falsely accused but what can he do?? Nobody believes him.

Again … as said … I DONT KNOW but I’m not 100% at ease with this unbalance in ‘focus’ … I’m always the ‘underdog’ guy (I guess I perhaps see Zaid as the ‘underdog’?? maybe)

– M

7-4-2013 at 00:03:25

Just a thought …do you think Eric Maillaud
would talk to me ?
I have a lot of questions for him
French Law experts what do you think ?

7-4-2013 at 06:26:59

@ Mari:

Me, *already* up at 4:56 am in the morning!

Started work one hour later!

@ Lynda:

I am on Windows 8.1.


@ Lynda & Mari:

Three weeks Corsica ahead four weeks from now!

@ Fat Bastard:

I am really sorry, but he wouldn’t care talking to you.

It’s just how France works.

They’re kind of trying to solve the puzzle by their own means and never do buy as much into the idea of public (or even personal) involvement as you in the UK and we in Germany do.


7-4-2013 at 07:47:23

Hey Max,

What does it take to become part of the “in” group here (sorry, me no like tea much and have serious issues with veal – ie, cute little baby calfs. No can do either)? Is there like an initiation ceremony (no hazing please…)?

So why do I ask you? because i think my 07-22-2013 22:58:22 deserved an answer, even if minimalist —

I know I live on the links you guys bring (thanks) and like the round and rounds about details (all important) but logic is not chopped liver either, is it?

Am I fishing? absolutely! (it’s what i do)

Sincerely (really…),

[[slippery] Marlin

PS just because Tim V seems to like me doesn’t mean I’m bad…. you should see who else likes me!
PPS I am not the only conspiracist – look at Qui! and we have our suspicions about NR….
PPPS Marilyn, conspiracies make for great books – guaranteed best sellers (hint, hint…)

7-4-2013 at 08:58:04

@ Lars:

You didn’t take the “206 or 306” Peugeot.

I think Sylvie Lecoeur really said it.

I understand how you would not be sure of the difference between a 206 and a 306 – anyway I never understood how she could be sure that it was not a 207 or a 307 for the 7 line is pretty close to the 6 line.

In any case the 8 line appears much different from the 6 and the 7 so we can take it for almost granted it was neither a 208 nor a 308.


7-4-2013 at 09:02:08

Hey Marlin,

‘What does it take?’

You keeping up the good stuff and me paying more attention;) (in other words, it is my ‘fault’ and you are already ‘in’)

(my) problem is that there sometimes is so much info, I just skim through it. And more than often miss some valuable info. So, it is nothing personal.

I myself try to keep posts as short as possible (although sometimes end up with proze anyway). To keep things readable.

Anyway, on your post. Well put. You bring up a 2-killer team possibility and back it up by analysis of tracks on Martinet. To me that idea (2-killer team) is ‘new’. I have to ‘vision’ the stuff you are possibly proposing, esp. the ‘maneuvring car’. ….

Where exactly are those ‘brake’ tracks? (post, if possible a tinypic with a arrow to make it clear to me) Because I’m interested (and I’m sure the others are too;)

Ps: I’m more a ‘solver’. I do the ‘solving’ on my own, as one does a ‘Sudoku’ on his/her own. I have to ‘vision’ the complete scene/scenario myself. But I’m in need of elements, and this blog (and other sources) have given me a wealth of elements (the ‘braking’ can but such an element) … just ‘push’ the elements, and I will be a happy ‘Sudoku’ guy … btw, everybody can/may do his/her own solving, but egoistic as I am, I burn most of my time with my own ‘solutions’;)

– M

PS2: Ahh, post is too long yet again;)

7-4-2013 at 09:10:27


Good discussion during the night. My night was uneventful. Did not kill anyone.

7-4-2013 at 09:25:40


I read your comment yesterday and I thought it was indeed interesting. Marlin, this blog is not my beginning and my end. By this I mean that I work. Yes, I know that people think if one does not catch a bus or Metro train to go to an office, one is not working. You can take it from me that even though my office is in my home, I work every f…. day of my life, and so too deep into the night.

I have many interests and I try to follow up on all of them. Yesterday, for example, I went to an exhibition about Landru: It was fascinating and I now want to write an article about him. That is when I have time to do so. Right now my writing priority though is to finish the novel I am writing. And there is another non-fiction on the horizon of my mind.

So, Marlin, I do not reply to every comment. Not only is the time for me to do so not there, but I know zero-minus about bicycles and cars, so for me to comment on comments about bicycles and motorcars will really be stupid.

Marlin, I also have my comments ignored, and do you know what I do then? I delete them. I know you can not delete yours, but when you next post a comment and there is no response to it, and it makes you really angry, email me to remove it, and I will remove it.

Yes, I drink tea. And no, for me to eat biscuits is rare, for which there is a reason, but that’s not your business or anybody elses. Would you rather have me drink gin and tonic? Would you mock if I had said I am a dipsomaniac? Or as journalists who do not drink call those who do: a Pisspot? So, Marlin, perhaps you would be appreciated here if you drop the mocking and the snide remarks you are inclined to make about our commentators.

So, what more to say.Enjoy your day. What do you fish for?

7-4-2013 at 09:29:36

@Fat Bastard

re: speaking to Prosecutor Maillaud.

I disagree with Alex. If you have information which you think will contribute to the killer/killers being apprehended, then you should speak to the investigators.

Do you have a lawyer? Then you speak to him and he will contact the British investigators who will contact the French. If you do not have a lawyer get one.

I am certain that no investigator will refuse to interview someone who could help them with their enquiries.

7-4-2013 at 10:50:00


Here is a cropped and high pixel of the photo of the parking with the Red Rescue vehicle still in place.

Maybe Oui, the ‘bike’ under the tree, can you judge its size by comparing to the tyre tracks ?

@Max, my question about tyre tracks related to the two that are outside the ark, close to the slope, sorry to be a bore.


7-4-2013 at 10:54:00

@Marlin on 7-2-2013 at 22:58:32

You make it more difficult to trace your comment … July 22 at 22:58:22 hours?

I blush, you appreciate my theories 😉 , did I use the word conspiracy? I think not, although I do suspect there is a conspiracy involved to execute this planned attack where definitely innocent bystanders fell victim.

I think my asset is to look at details, combinations and do analysis and get rid of obvious misinformation or political propaganda. So my area of interest is not vehicles, lightweight bikes, VTTs or motorbikes, but all is needed in this grand puzzle due to lack of facts/evidence from the official investigation.

Here on this blog, the excellence is due to the very different personalities and interests. Marilyn does a wonderful job to keep these characters happy (us) and always welcomes newcomers. As Max said, consider yourself “in” and continue your contribution to the issue at hand.

What I like about Max is his open mind and never (openly) desillusioned when he adds or subtracts facts needed in his Sudoku puzzle. He offers excellent timelines in Excel and is tireless to deliver another adapted graphic or photo. The 10,000 comments or so here at Marilyn’s blog offer great insight and excellent start searching the archive.


7-4-2013 at 10:56:46


7-4-2013 at 11:02:23


What have I done wrong with the Tinypic links ?

They can’t be opened directly as yours can, I’ll try this;

Help !

7-4-2013 at 11:07:34
7-4-2013 at 11:41:18


I add the Peugeot type. I like Marilyn know zero about cars. 🙂

(And I will try and get all the links right.)

7-4-2013 at 11:44:59

I for my part only comment on other comments when I find them interesting, not to be polite.

That doesn’t mean that I find these comments, that I don’t answer/comment, stupid or anything.

7-4-2013 at 12:00:04


See diary Part 9 post Oui on 6-29-2013 at 00:30:37

Using trigonometry, based on the exact dimensions of BMW X5 series (4855×1845 mm), I calculated the following from Max’s enhanced photo:
Width of tow truck platform is 2175 (mm)
Width of tracks on lay-by is 2000 (mm) outside dimension
Bicycle rear wheel diameter is 675 (mm)

The racebike rests under an angle unknown by us, so the round wheel will look like an ellipse. For example a rear wheel of 700mm under an angle of 15º to the surface, will be measured by the observer as 675mm. However, if you have a good view with high-resolution, the ellipse will always have the correct width as the true dimension of the wheel, it just flattens out to the observer.

7-4-2013 at 12:28:33

Martinet 4WD skid marks ‘animation’

– M

7-4-2013 at 12:56:55

@Max, brilliant !

Whatever vehicle it was it pulled in a long way, didn’t it.

7-4-2013 at 13:02:58

@ Max

Kudos for all the effort you’re putting in deciphering those tire marks. I think you’re doing a remarkable job at that.
As far as I’m concerned, though lacking your trigonometry skills, I never believed all those skid marks were from Saad’s beamer. Just intuition and logic.
Yet, i just watched your latest sketch thru the link you provided, and since I tend to focus on other aspects of the case, I’m a little in a quandary about the significance of the 2 rectangles you’ve drawn (white and purple?). Do they, according to your conclusions, mark the spots where 2 vehicles braked into the lay-by, or the spots from where they pulled out? Or a combo of the two?

7-4-2013 at 13:42:27

I hope I’ve read the pic right, front and rear axle ?

7-4-2013 at 13:45:19

@ Lars
About witness 4 : Frank was working in Marceau Dessous, I’m not sure he lives there, are you? There is a Frank, landscape gardener in Arnand, 74210 Doussard

7-4-2013 at 13:53:14

It is ONE(!) 4WD

As I see it, it parked as the upper (more light) pink rectangle.
The REAR wheels now are aligned with the (rear wheel) skid marks

Now, as 4WD did its harsh BACKWARDS TURN:

– First the REAR WHEELS spinned
– And because the front wheels are turning the car ends up at the 2nd/lower THICK pink ractangle

– Now, the rear wheels STOP skidding
– And the Front wheels START skidding
(hence the ‘weird’ front wheel skids marks on the right)

– After that the front wheels STOP skidding
– AND the (left) rear wheel STARTS skidding again

… If you can’t grasp it (and I know women in general have problems in ‘3d spatial placement’) just take a little toy car and try it yourself … you’d be surprised how far apart the tyre marks can be … or otherwsie just watch someone park a car backwards, and see how far apart and weird angled the front wheels really are;)

Conclusion: It IS a 4WD (so not AH’s BMW)

– M

7-4-2013 at 14:02:03

The brilliance though is that (assuming front/rear did not skid at the same timer … something for the car buffs) you can in principle even calculate the WHEELBASE

I calculated the wheelbase to be approx = 257 cm

And this rules out certain cars, e.g. a BMW X5 4WD or the Landrover 110

One of the car that DO fit is a 2-door Pajero (appearently known for its shot wheelbase … but then again, as said, I’m no car buff)

– M

7-4-2013 at 14:16:41

Just as a “point”.

Wheels make marks/don’t make marks if..
…either there is a loss of traction (under power) the wheel spins freely.

OR an increased friction. (braking) the wheel is “locked”.

Those THREE marks are not from the same vehicle.
OR not from the same movement.

Include into that the effects of DSC and/or ABS

The “lone” mark looks like an “inside” braking action. Increased friction due to “locking” effect even with ABS applied…and the balance of the vehicle displaced.

Or an “outside” loss of traction, with DSC applied, thus increasing the inside traction (bite). However that should be larger due to the “displaced balance” of the vehicle pushing it to the “outer” edge.

Which ever…you have to treat the “three marks” *one plus the other two) as separate movements. By the same vehicle OR not as the case maybe.

I’m sure Alex (with engineering) would agree.

7-4-2013 at 14:20:22

@ Max
Amazing !
This might help to rule out a few more cars :×4.php
+ Skoda Yeti 1.8 TSI 4×4 = empattement 258 cm

7-4-2013 at 14:30:08

Any thoughts as to why the skid marks weren’t caused by a 2WD vehicle, losing traction twice?

I began by assuming that the tracks were related to the murder, though my crude use of Occam’s Razor, now suggests not.

The vehicle responsible looks to have a very wide track, and I wouldn’t rule out the pompiers.

7-4-2013 at 14:59:40

@Max, I do get what you say, and certainly the perceived arc after suggests reversing, by the way I am a ‘woman’ who can read maps, and do not have to turn them to correspond with direction !

Unlike the rest of my female friends, actually best not to bother to ask, only one drives the distances I do, crappy car, the others in their posh sports cars or Chelsea Tractors, tootle about between school runs and shopping !!!

Two door Pajero, now where have I seen one of those …… it was also ‘sombre’ in colour …..

7-4-2013 at 15:05:00

@James (all),

1. The front wheels (when skidding) threw up dirt!

2. And the length of the front wheels skids match exactly the ‘break’ in the rear wheels skid

1 and 2 together make me come to the conclusion more on a basis of elegance and symmetry that on real car knowledge

Imho, the changes that it are 2 cars (1 RWD, 1 FWD) is small, and IF it were 2 cars they have to be seperated in TIME, so, with the rear spins being AH, one would have problems to place car number 2 at the MOMENT of the killing … and 2 cars (FWD+RWD) creating a ‘pattern’ which exactly matches a 4WD is too weird to be true;)

But of course, I’ll change my view if somebody comes with a better solution … After all, I am only after collecting the CORRECT ELEMENTS (and this is possibly an important element)

– Max

7-4-2013 at 15:10:58

I’m not trying to be awkward, does ‘our’ BMW Estate have a longer Wheel base than the saloon version ?

I see that todays models have increased by 82cms, is that correct, compared to what model ?

7-4-2013 at 15:46:01

@ James

I understand your “one-car” scenario, or at least I think I do.

Could you please elaborate your “two-cars” scenario somewhat? What would have been the likely sequence of events in that scenario?

7-4-2013 at 15:48:14

At the top of the middle/upper orange line … that looks like ‘dirt thrown up’

(there was a time when I thought it was a ‘pool of blood’;)

– M

7-4-2013 at 15:56:32

I’m absorbing everyones comments, I have put umpteen circular items against my computer screen, I still see the inner arc, if it went all the way back ending up at the rear wheel of the BMW. Through what appears to be a large pool of blood.

Of course it is very important, for so many reasons, Le Monde article, Maillauds ‘hard reverse’, another vehicle there at the same time blocking Saads escape.

As Oui, pointed out earlier regarding the bike or no bike, the angle of the photo changes the perception.

Sorry guys, I remain unsure, although Max I admire your efforts to explain and the two door Pajero feeds into my ideas ! Can’t prove a thing though, can I.

To turn this around just a bit, IF there was a BWM X5 or something of a similar nature, Mercedes, VW (German marque) 4×4 there that day, seen circulating between 15:15/15:30, given a precise 15:20 by other sources, could it have gone to Martinet before the Al-Hillis arrived ?

Got to the top and realised that it wasn’t the place they were looking for ? turned in and reversed, macho like back out then sped off down the Combe d’Ire, all the time looking for the Golf Club in Giez !!! September is a popular month for British Golfers to come to France, after the school holidays are over, that leaves the question why not come forward, well I can think of many reasons.

Not cheap are they:

7-4-2013 at 16:04:48

Would a slow puncture in the drivers side rear tyre make a difference ?

Certainly looks a bit deflated in the lowloader photos….

7-4-2013 at 16:06:51

Your two “together” marks are “braking” marks.

He (the killer who you guys term “X” for drama reasons) has pulled in, braked and then pulled out.

So..the next carpark along ? The guy that drove up there ?
How far is that away ?

That’s your turning point.

7-4-2013 at 16:09:18

@Max, so from your last Tinypic, you are showing a shorter wheel base than Saads car, shorter but slightly wider ? Hence the Pajero, jeep style vehicle, oh my !

7-4-2013 at 16:09:36

The beauty of the “one-car” (in hard reverse) scenario is that it fits with those blackish drag marks on the tarmac, which to me really look as if SM’s bike had been dragged by SAH’s reversing BMW for a few metres.

Anyway, another thing:
Above the tow truck, between the two truck and the gendarme who stands with his back facing the tow truck, there is what looks like a blood stain to me. If it is, how did that get there and which of the victims left it? Zainab?

7-4-2013 at 16:09:40

Would a slow puncture in the drivers side rear tyre make a difference ?

YES, completely
It would make that mark more pronounced.
The traction lost due to that would be considerable. and wider.

Good point.

7-4-2013 at 16:19:33

X stands for unknown variable (like in math).

7-4-2013 at 16:28:24

@Peter, similar marks and a splodge behind the tow truck as well…..

7-4-2013 at 16:30:46

Tow truck. Double wheeled.
Does mark that way.

7-4-2013 at 16:33:02


Witness 4: No I am not sure. I believe I found a Frank in Marceau, but it was 10 months ago so….. They must live close though, since his son Melvin knew his way around these mountain tracks. But Arnand is as good a guess. I put a ? there.

@All tyre track affinados

These discussions have been going on since September (see thread 2).
I am not sure that we are any closer to a solution. And you know that E-Maillaud knows with almost certainty the answer….. 😉
And even if those car tracks are not from Al-Hilli’s car it says nothing whether the car was at first parked at the further end of the lay-by or not…..

7-4-2013 at 16:35:12

For Peter.

Two cars is…

One pulling in..and braking, the other has reversed already.

It brings in the “time” thing. I believe the Arnand pics are totally possible.

7-4-2013 at 16:37:57

I think the entire track issue was clarified in Peter’s post 7-2-2013 at 20:18:59.

-The skid tracks were not from Saad’s car.

-They were made by a vehicle braking sharply.

It was probably quite easy to determine, on site, whether those tracks came from an accelerating or braking vehicle, depending on loose gravel build up (or lack thereof) at the track ends.

The tracks might very well come from one of the first arriving emergency vehicles rushing there.

7-4-2013 at 16:39:35

@max re: car wheel base
brilliant animation. I am still with the one car theory. By the way: the land rover is also available with short wheelbase.
One thing I was thinking of is: I wonder if zainab told the police that there was another car. Nobody has mentioned even questioning her for that jet. Strange isn´t it? If our scenario is correct and X escaped via a 4×4 shortly before WBM arrived, then Zainab should have seen tha car and remember at least that there was another car apart from her father´s.

– RR

7-4-2013 at 16:42:07

MAybe it was a Landrover 90
92.9 in (2,360 mm) (90)
110 in (2,794 mm) (110)
127 in (3,226 mm) (130)
source wikipedia

– RR

7-4-2013 at 16:50:33

Went for some shopping. On the bike (yes;) On the way home … I have GOT it (I think;) (partly thanks to James for ‘pushing’)

– It IS one car(!)
– It IS AH’s BMW

Here is what (I think) happened (as Monk would say)

– AH BMW nose parked to the wood
– Drives away backwards under force (rear wheel marks)
– BREAKS!! (front wheel brake marks)
– Drives away again backwards under force (left rear wheel mark)

Q: Why did he break?
A: Possibly to let Zainab get in (but failed)

(1 car, 2 movements, as James would argue;)

– M

7-4-2013 at 16:57:17

@Lars, of course Maillaud knows full well who made the marks and when, I do not have a doubt.

I’ve often wondered if there was something in the middle of the parking, that had to be avoided, even on arrival…..

Zainab will no doubt have told them if there was a car or motorbike there, afterall according to the enquiry team, she and her father were outside the car when the events started, he grabbed her hand and they ran back towards the car, the baddie coming from the track above Martinet – as FB has said, if that indeed is what she said, he would have no reason to doubt her, so why would I?

If only the aerial photographs we’ve all seen could have some time stamp to put them in order.

7-4-2013 at 17:09:50

Oh Max, I’m so pleased, and yes that Daddy would not have deliberately left his darling daughter, alive, injured or even dead in that parking, no matter what the risk.

Put it this way, I know my Daddy would have done anything for me at that age, even at mine now, as will my husband for his children and grandchildren.

A long way back, we spoke of Zainab being in the centre of the parking as that would have been the passenger side of the BMW in the reverse turn.

Also, if we bring in Brett Martin, turning off the engine, the car would have remained in gear, reverse, he sure as heck wouldn’t have reached over and disengaged it and Maillaud and the team know that as well.

Very simple way of telling if the man was being truthful, me thinks.

7-4-2013 at 18:06:11

Don’t mean to go on, car doors were locked, due to the speed engaged, Zainab couldn’t have opened the door even if she tried, can you imagine the distress and screaming that would have ensued, with the gunman still firing at the vehicle.

In panic would Saad have thought to open his door to unlock them all, push a button on the dash, if we are to believe that the shots were all fired within 30 seconds……

@James, I was not being sarcastic about Saad, I have read what people say about him and he adored his children.

7-4-2013 at 18:24:11

@James, I was referring to Max’s comment that the BMW may have braked to allow her to get in, at that point there was no impact, although I was unaware of the doors unlocking on impact, does that apply to my two Peugeots as well ?

I see where you are coming from, what we don’t know is what if any real impact was made into the slope at the rear, there appears to be tyre spins, would that be sufficient to open the doors ?

I have to say, pass, I don’t know….. we’ve never seen if there was damage to the rear of Saads car.

I did wonder if the tow bar got stuck on roots, but from photos afterwards, nothing was obvious and certainly not mentioned by any of the local, national or international press that was there.

PS. I don’t need to hide begind anyones skirts.

7-4-2013 at 18:27:42


My view of the door locking issue was that central locking engaged when the car was put into reverse and that any impact with the bank was so soft that sensors in the bumpers did not trigger (lazy reverse arc scenario). The tow bar could also have softened the blow in direct reverse scenario.

7-4-2013 at 18:47:07

sure skype me if you want
not sure when i will have it on
I have just started a new contract
so im out of the house 6 til 20 most days 🙁

7-4-2013 at 18:48:09

@James, I really don’t know what to say to you, I think Rashomon has put it much the same as me.

7-4-2013 at 19:39:42

@James and @All

I have had commentators come to this blog and they said that they had been on the blog of Craig Murray but could not stand the bickering that went on there.

James, on this blog we have always respected each other’s views. We’ve never had arguments here. I am now receiving emails from people who wanted to leave a comment but did not and they told me that the reason was because it ‘looks just like Craig Murray’ now.

I have indeed been very unhappy for a while now about the way this blog has been going – deteriorating.

I asked Tim V not to go on at Lynda. I ask you that too now. Lynda has been a commentator and part of this blog from its creation. We all respect her. And we will continue to respect her. So, please, James drop the snide remarks. I never want to see these words – ‘Linda … with a Y’ here on this blog again.

Lynda does not have an attitude. Just this afternoon reading the latest comments I was thinking how I admire Lynda for participating in the talk about skid marks when to me a skid mark is a skid mark is a skid mark.

7-4-2013 at 19:42:09

Anecdotal as per usual
When I was burgled, the forensic guy got some excellent shoe prints from the hard floor, which told him a lot apparently. This contributed to his capture and subsequent inprisonment. The burglar not the forensic guy.

Would the team at Martinet have taken shoe prints. The soft gravel seems like the perfect medium for them?

7-4-2013 at 19:42:58

@Max @Lynda Re: pic with rectangles

The upper rectangle (light pink) has the following dimensions:
assumed SUV 4×4
track 1720 mm
wheelbase 2490 mm

The most difficult dimension is the wide track (1720 mm) as most SUV 4×4 are smaller than the BMW X5 series.

See my earlier post specifications:
BMW X5 touring (year 2004)
track front 1557 mm
track rear 1582 mm
wheelbase 2888 mm

Mitsubishi Pajero
track front 1570 mm
track rear 1570 mm
wheelbase 2780 mm

Mitsubishi Challenger
track front 1520 mm
track rear 1515 mm
wheelbase 2800 mm

Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4
track front 1720 mm
track rear 1700 mm
wheelbase 2700 mm

Found listing on:
Wikipedia – List of automotive superlatives

7-4-2013 at 19:43:56

Anecdotal as per usual

When I was burgled, the forensic guy got some excellent shoe prints from the hard floor, which told him a lot apparently. This contributed to his capture and subsequent inprisonment. The burglar not the forensic guy.

Would the team at Martinet have taken shoe prints. The soft gravel seems like the perfect medium for them.

7-4-2013 at 19:48:30


Nee, in this case it is the forensic guys who should be in prison. 🙂


On one of these photos you have been discussing lately, you can see the area that the police had sealed off. It stops at the barrier. A major mistake methinks. The perp probably came from beyond the barrier and started shooting before he reached it.

7-4-2013 at 20:11:02

@Oui @Max Re: pic with rectangles

+ Mitsubishi Pajero / Montero Wheelbase 2 570 mm.

7-4-2013 at 20:12:41

@Max pic skid marks

I also calculated the lower rectangle:
wheelbase 2677 mm!

Any suggestions? Does French inspector Clousseau drive a sports car?

Why execute witnesses?
Ever since we eliminated the tracks made by the BMW of the al-Hilli family, the car present on the lay-by could have pointed to the killer, not only by its license plate number!

7-4-2013 at 20:17:13


See my earlier comment, most difficult to meet is extraordinary trackwidth of 1720 mm.

7-4-2013 at 20:18:28

@JCave, Peter did some research on shoeprints a while back, after we’d been discussing the reports that the killer was moving around the parking, we were surprised by what is given away by them.

Maybe, he’ll help with the links again ?

@Lars, I agree, as apparently said by Zainab, I suppose that this was still only the day after, do we know when she first gave a filmed account in the hospital, was it before or after the medically induced coma.

@Oui, I would have liked those tyre tracks to have been Saads, if they’re not they’re not, do you have an idea as to what make and model would fit ?

I also thought the idea of one of the Forestry vehicles could either explain them away or point in their direction.

7-4-2013 at 20:19:59


Pls stop the utter bs!

Marilyn moderates the blog, don’t like it? Just move on …

7-4-2013 at 20:31:52

@Lynda at 20:18:28

Quite easy, a very expensive sports car with wide track.
See this model: Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4. Packs a lot of power under the hood, easy to make wheels spin on gravel.

7-4-2013 at 20:46:25

Max, Oui, you guys know I’ll always got your backs whatever discussion it comes down to, but these tread marks are becoming

*the Maya’s corn rows of the Chevaline blog!*

I mean we can interpret whatever we want into these tread marks, not the least that there was a

*Lamborghini Aventador*

on the spot!

Come on, Oui, you don’t seriously believe that and I don’t mean to be rude, I am just trying to make a point here!

When I saw Max’ tread mark animation photo I thought to myself I could go up there with my bike and carve you these four tire tracks into the gravel, one after another, one by one, by just bringing my bike into the right position and then accelarating and you guys would still trying to measure the track width between two of my marks and you’d probably come up with a Boeing 747 Jumbojet as the one that left the treadmarks!

I’m just thinking the tyre tread discussion leads nowhere and they we’re left by the BMW’s hard turn.


7-4-2013 at 20:47:25

@Oui, not much like a forestry vehicle then ! Wow, not the sort that sneaks past houses without making a sound either, although of course nobody would see it over the hedge.

Do you think the tyre tracks have anything to do with the killing, I realise it would only be an opinion as we don’t know when they were made.

Afterall, didn’t Claude Antoine from Georges link say that there were two cars and two scooters that passed him, the morning of the shooting and they all came back down……

7-4-2013 at 21:06:46

@ Oui

You wrote: “See my earlier comment, most difficult to meet is extraordinary trackwidth of 1720 mm”.

Rear track width X5(gen 1 and 2) incl. common spacers (see earlier post).

1650 +30+30 = 1710 (Close)

7-4-2013 at 21:15:06


No perception of a bit of irony in my post?

Max is doing his best with the tracks and measurements. He was searching for a SUV 4×4, none have as wide wheel tracks as the BMW. I agreed it can’t be SAH’s BMW X5 Estate, just no way the tracks fit. So there was another vehicle parked upwards in the lay-by. This fact would influence the sequence of events, just the fact of recognition by the witnesses. Of course any expensive sports car can’t travel towards Col de Chérel, nor would an exit towards Chevaline go unseen. Just the listen to the sound of the engine … 🙂

Max is back at the Sudoku game.

7-4-2013 at 21:24:16

@ Oui

Sorry, I am generally not very good with sensing irony.

I did not even get the Lamborghini joke.

And I know Max is doing his best as he always does.

I appreciate all the work that everybody’s put into that blog.

I personally thought it might have been the BMW reversing.

I reversed almost the same way and almost fell off the cliff of the river.


7-4-2013 at 21:38:53

This blog is on my website. I am the owner of the website. There are no advertisements on the website. This is therefore a private website and a private blog. I have the right to boot anyone off here. I also have the right not to pass a comment which I consider inappropriate or insulting.

James – if you want to continue to comment here, then cut the crap!

7-4-2013 at 21:51:16

re: those tracks.

I think you have all done great trying to analyse which vehicle/vehicles had made them.

I think and I’ve said this a few days ago they were left by the rescue vehicles: the pompiers. I’ve seen pompiers vehicles arrive at an accident scene and believe me they park wherever there is space to do so and regardless of whether they are destroying evidence.

I’ve thought of this. If those tracks were there when the gendarmes arrived, they would have marked and numbered the tracks. That there were no markings on the tracks tells me that they were not there when the gendarmes arrived, so they allowed the pompiers to park their vehicles there. Therefore, the tracks were left by the pompiers’ vehicles.

7-4-2013 at 21:59:21

@Marilyn, they would certainly have driven as close as possible to the scene without running someone over.

I doubt they would have stopped and walked up to the scene of the incident, afterall they were aware that a child was ‘alive’, maybe even at that moment someone else, the Emergency Services arrived from both Route du Moulin and Chevaline as stated by Claude Antoine and Paul Ducher, respectively.

7-4-2013 at 22:06:03

To me it is simple. This blog was running pretty well, until some people came barging in. I’m not waisting more energy on this ‘matter’. I’ll will see how it pans out.

Btw, the car being AH’s brings me back to the ‘Le Monde’ graph. Which EM found not uninteresting but on which he hinted it was not (completely?) correct

– M

7-4-2013 at 22:17:31

I tend to agree with Alex concerning these tracks.

I would be surprised if the rescue vehicles chosed to drive over a crime scene, but then many things have suprised me in this investigation.


Please stop picking fights with other bloggers and Marilyn.

7-4-2013 at 22:23:44


I apologise for the unpleasantness you’ve encountered here lately. I have now blacklisted those who have been causing the unpleasantness.


7-4-2013 at 22:24:09

@James, do you want your comments blocked ?

What is the ‘Linda with a Y’, should I be paranoid and read that as ‘Linda with a why?’.

I’ve been around long enough and with life experience to know that I shouldn’t take the bait, that can be difficult and oh so easy to reply too quickly, with anxious fingers punching at the keys.

We all know the score, it is Marilyns Blog and she can do as she pleases, it may not please us all the time, she puts in her thoughts on the matter as well.

On the Craig Murray blog, he doesn’t appear to have commented with his inside knowledge, Marilyn does, about the working of the Justice system, the Gendarmerie, the treatment of foreigners corpses before being re-patriated and so much more.

She is part of it, it was her inititaive in the first place that attracted so many people to read and continue to read, to contribute and pose questions.

The problem with Chevaline is that there is so little fact that we can hang our hats on, that is the French way, so be it.

That is also why it remains such a talking point, you have a point of view that would be appreciated, input that could be invaluable, nevertheless you don’t have the answers anymore than the rest of us.

I thought your comments on the tyre tracks was a good point, I am biased, I explained earlier.

As for ‘non-commercial’ websites, I understand Craig Murray makes his money from after-dinner speaking and the like, he needs you to keep his website in the ‘news’.

@Marilyn, please don’t close the blog.

I trust I have not offended anyone, it isn’t my intention, I did not ask Marilyn to post any defence, I’m sure she could do without the hassle.

7-4-2013 at 22:34:22

It is about MZT (blog), just like an immune system, it is nothing personal. If MZT (blog) wants to survive it has to kick out ‘unwanted’ elements. It is only normal, and best is to act quickly and thoroughly.

I support any action by Marilyn, in the worst scenario even a total close down, self destruct (dramatic).

– M

7-4-2013 at 22:58:32

Who knows this


(Other than the usual suspects Max, Oui, Jan [film is Dutch] and me?)

If you want to know about France and what the Chevaline killer might be like, you got to see it.


7-4-2013 at 23:05:59


Yes I should see this movie again;)

– M

7-4-2013 at 23:11:56


Originally titled “The Golden Egg” the novel the film was based on was written by Tim Krabbe. Krabbe also wrote, “The Rider” a very fine novella about his amateur career as road cyclist. I believe he is also an excellent chess player too.

7-4-2013 at 23:12:16


I always wondered about your trip to Martinet. You drove directly to Martinet. And you did not pass the 1515 pictures location.

Yet AH, ended up a the 1515 pictures location although the ‘camp manager’ supposedly did suggest ‘Martinet’ to AH.

I wondered how AH ended up at the 1515 picture location … It seems like a littel detail … but in my ‘cuddly toy’ double back scenario (which explains away the X5) it fits.

– M

7-4-2013 at 23:16:22

Thanks Alex,

Watch it for free,

7-4-2013 at 23:21:51

@ Y:

Is it by chance then that Jeroen *Krabbe* stars the film?

@ Max:

I fear this movie.

Never want to see it a second time.

Me myself I never had the impression to’ve passed by the photo location neither.

And I couldn’t figure out why neither.

My only idea was that they were cruising and I was not.


7-4-2013 at 23:22:44


I’ve not heard of this film.

7-4-2013 at 23:31:37

Reading through old comments I noticed the discussion of how the pharmacie was transferred to Claire.

Now when we know how old her son is, and that the transfer was executed on 1 October 2011, it was just days after she became pregnant. Coincidence?

Lynda asked the question then, did she know already that she was pregnant?

7-4-2013 at 23:33:57



Got you out of serial killing mood at half eleven in the night – once!

It’s a classic.

“The face of all your fears” (At the Gates)


7-4-2013 at 23:37:05


No, Alex, I am in fact deep into some killing!

7-4-2013 at 23:41:33

Holiday season is on!

It’s only 14 days left to the day when Xavier Baligant was killed two years ago!

Is there some psycho killer honing his gun?

Holidays in France start tomorrow…

“Suicide season” (Bring Me The Horizon)



7-4-2013 at 23:42:30

Just a link test, can be deleted

BBC Interview with William Brett Martin

7-4-2013 at 23:43:45


what about the Wikipedia(R) entry edited by or linked to our summary?


7-4-2013 at 23:48:30

@Lars, it’s actually easier than that, for the notice to appear in the newspaper, that process would have been started a while before, months even, knowing the love of red tape over here.

Notaire involvement, stamped here there and everywhere a thousand times, eventhough she was pregnant at the time of the hand over, she may not have even known, many women reveal nothing to anyone other than their partners before the three month mark.

The biggest shock and disappointment was probably to her parents !

I very much doubt they expected their well-educated daughter, at a cost to them, I know what that feels like, to get entangled with a divorced man, father of two teenage boys, 16 years her senior and a welder in the local factory, well it was a senior position, some consolation.

They probably expected the infatuation to fizzle out, then wham bam – baby on the way.

7-4-2013 at 23:49:49


I don’t quite understand how you mean….?

7-4-2013 at 23:51:34


You are probably right.

7-4-2013 at 23:53:37

Before I go go …

Before I go though I wish to say this. We here are discussing a multiple murder case. Anyone here who threatens me in any way will be reported to the police. I am sure the police will be delighted to learn the name, email address and IP number and other details of such a person. This is not a threat: it is a promise.

Tomorrow is another day.

7-4-2013 at 23:58:58

Lars, hmm, sorry, wasn’t I understandable?

There is a Wikipedia entry on Chevaline — your summary is much better — our knowledge might be richer than that of the Wikipedia author (if it wasn’t you:) — why don’t we edit the Wikipedia entry with the summary — given that Wikipedia might be difficult to deal with — why don’t we just ask the author to link to Marilyn’s blog and the summary?


7-5-2013 at 00:08:22

What have we become?

How would you guys call yourselves?

Along the lines of “ripperologists” or “Black Dahlia experts”

are we



P.S. Sounds like a mix between stalinist and chauvinist to me:)

7-5-2013 at 00:16:50


I see us as ‘The Marilyn Bunch’

– M

7-5-2013 at 01:10:22

Alex @22:58:32

Funny you should mention that movie (The vanishing). saw it with subtitles some years ago. gave me nightmares for a long time. there was something about it that was totally shocking and extremely disturbing.

There was BTW an American remake – like all such made-for-US-consumption redos it was vastly inferior – across the board. Both in terms of cinematology, acting (you know it’s American when everyone looks like a wanna-be cheerleader) with perfect bright white teeth and and air brushed make-up), and story line. Naturally, they changed the ending because the European style dark ending, the hopelessness it left behind, do not cross the ocean well into the optimist, good-guys-win in the end land of eternal sunshine.

Which reminds me of one other movie I found just as disturbing – “Funny Games”. Never want to see or hear of it again.

7-5-2013 at 01:41:19

Marilyn, thanks for your reply to me earlier.

I wasn’t angry at all about that post not getting responses – lots of people get little responses and everyone else seemed to be discussing other things – there was a big ongoing discussion about the tracks and car types at the time, and mine was a bit on a tangential course. was hoping for just a couple of people’s responses to help determine whether or not there is convergence on some facts, and to also start a conversation about the implications of there being another car at the Lay By

These tracks appeared to have been made not very long before (ie no more than a day old due to all the points made by others here on the freshness of the skid marks). This may or may not be the killer(s) car, of course – no way do we know for sure, but there’s a reasonably high likelihood that it may have been (can’t estimate how high due to insufficient information).

Assuming that to be the case, the scenario I was going with tracked reasonably well with Max’s conjectures, perhaps diverging at my point #4 , where there is a “fork in the road” so to speak. I was interested in his “elements” and liked his way of thinking (personal preference – no aspersion on anyone else. i like some other’s people’s reasoning too. have a weakness for certain, sudoku-like logic). Max has now lobbed the ball back in my court so am taking a little “time out’ to consider a few odds and ends.

So all is well…

As an aside, I did not mean for any comment of mine to be taken as “snide’, though i recognize my peculiar sense of humor does not fly with everyone, and can get misinterpreted. No denigration intended to anyone at all.

I think people are doing worthy debates on your blog and i find many comments illuminating, agree or not with everything. The summary Lars is putting together is excellent and i already learnt two things about the principals in this case I did not know. Plus it’s great to have so many of the key articles, photos and “known” facts collected in one place. I did, early on, something like this on my own, way back, trying to separate the “known knowns”, from the “unknown knowns”, and the “known unknowns”. That to make sure I don’t fall into the trap of speculating endlessly about “unknown unknowns”. Alas, my own list – especially of the last two categories got unwieldy – there are just too many tangents.

Also greatly appreciate the annotations and photo clarifying touches of the Martinet scene that Max has done, and some very insightful comments by several others here.

7-5-2013 at 02:53:37

@Max at 00:16:50

First glance over the comments, I was sure to read:

“The Marilyn Brunch”

Awaiting an invitation …

7-5-2013 at 08:42:05


Ten months today.

And as Alex said only 14 days short of the two-year mark when Xavier Baligant was shot to death.

What to call ourselves?

The Marilyn Bunch as Max suggested?

The Marilyn Brunch as Oui thought?

Alex has the Chevalinists in mind. If one pronounces it the French way, then it’s good.

Being odd, what about The Horse Sleuths?

Have a nice commenting day.

Onward and forward.

@Oui: Brunch? Whenever you are in Paris. But brunch sounds so dull. Why not something much more appetizing: lunch or dinner? This, by the way, is an invite to all of you here.

7-5-2013 at 08:43:38

@Alex re:Wikipedia

Anyone who wishes to do so, is free to do it, I believe (Marilyn has however the copyright on this page).

I myself don’t want to get involved in Wikipedia.

7-5-2013 at 08:47:01


Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing with the summary. Signal me when you have finished it and I will set it out. I will then open a closed thread just for it. I am going to give you the copyright to the summary, Lars. Anyone who would want to copy it, or take info from it, will have to get your permission to do so. But we will speak of this again.

7-5-2013 at 09:26:01


It will take some days longer before I feel I have finished the summary. I know that there are still things mentioned on the blog earlier that I want to include.

I have been kind of lazy earlier, I have filed things on my computer that I felt concerned my own little line of investigation, but left other facts unfiled since they fell outside my sphere of interest, and I knew I could always find them on the blog.

And now I am on a new “piste”…..see below 😉

7-5-2013 at 09:40:21


I agree with you that Lars’s summary is going to be a huge asset for this blog. It is just amazing the way he is digging into thousands of comments.

7-5-2013 at 09:58:41

Piste Police

To “celebrate” the 10 months I am going to give E-Maillaud a new piste: Piste Police.

I have the last days been going through all old comments on this blog to create the summary you have seen.

During that work a new idea (new for me) dawned upon me. What if the perpetrator really was a policeman/gendarme? That would among other things explain certain habits and his knowledge about certain things.

Since Bacchus gave us the link to documentary on the Grégory Mercier murder I have started to believe that there might be a connection between that murder and the Chevaline killings (and Grégory’s father is a retired policeman).

If the perpetrator is a policeman it might also create a link to another of the Chablais-killings, the attempted murder of Jean-Pierre Maire in 2009, also a retired policeman.

It might even create a link to the Christian Maréchal murder, also police.

One of my hobbyhorses is, as you probably know, crime statistics. I must then also be fair and say that murders committed by policemen are rather rare. But I still feel that the idea is very promising.

I believe that there was a suicide of a policeman reported not long after the Chevaline killings. He lived however south-west of Chevaline, and I believe our man is living in Chablais.

When I say police above it might as well be the gendarmerie. The man might not still be in the forces, he might be kicked out of it for some misdemeanour, but he probably still have a lot of friends and contacts in the forces.

I said very long ago that believed that the French police/gendarmerie needed some reforms, and Marilyn answered “You wish..” 😉 , if however a man from the police/gendarmerie is involved in this murder even the Frenchmen might see some need for reforms.

7-5-2013 at 10:22:21

I am a very stubborn person. I “decided” only a week or two after the Chevaline killings that it was a local crime and a premeditated murder, with Mollier as the primary target. Why, I have tried to explain in numerous posts above.

In December I had reduced the number of “suspects” to one, but he was the instigator, not the perpetrator. The instigator had the motive but not the means. It is always a problem to introduce a new character in a scenario. I however found it necessary since I couldn’t see that the instigator had the experiences and mind necessary to execute such a crime. Otherwise I, as Max, believe that you should keep the scenario as simple as possible, and not introduce new players, it complicates more than it explains.

If I however introduced a new perp with the necessary shooting experiences and the mind to be able to kill another person, I also had to explain the link between the instigator and the perpetrator. That has been my main problem since December.

In Chablais, not far from Chevaline, we however have a man, good enough at shooting, and with a mind set on killing people. That seems a too good a coincidence, as I tried to explain with my excercise in statistics above.

First I thought he was some socially marginalized person (inspired by two cases of similar shootings we have had in Sweden), now I think that a more promising idea is that he is a (ex-)policeman/gendarme.

7-5-2013 at 10:31:36

You know Marilyn, I might even one day write about Chevaline, if the case is ever solved.

But it will then be centered, not on the killings themselves, but on everything that happened thereafter, about the investigation and peoples action and reactions around the crime.

I think there are many lessons to be learned. 😉

7-5-2013 at 10:46:15

@Lynda / all

Intended to post this yesterday, but did not get the call until this morning.

Re SM employment:-
I met with one of my old directors this week. He was responsible for procurement (steel and aluminium mostly). I asked him if he ever had cause to visit/knew anything about Cezus in Ugine. His response supprised me!

He told me that the site in Ugine is shared between the following 3 companies who all share the same address.(62, Av. Paul Girod 73400 Ugine)

1)Ugitech ~ owned by the Swiss company SCHMOLZ + BICKENBACH AG Gruppe who focus on the production of Stainless steel(Long products). Other companies owned by Schmolz & Bickenbach AG include:-
A) Deutsche Edelstahl Werke (DEW) of Germany
B) A. Finkl & Sons of the US,

2) Centre de Recherche de CEZUS (CRC). ~ owned by the French group Areva – A focused R&D business unit which includes the “Zr BU” (Zirconium Business unit).
3) Timet ( ~ owned by the HQ in PA USA. Focused on Titanium products. Recently purchased for 2.9billion $US by Precision Castparts Corp (PCC) of USA in Nov 2012.

He believes that Ugitech is the largest employer on the site!

He made some phone calls for me to an old contacts in Ugitech and was told that the “Molliers” (SM and his father) were employees of Ugitech and that SM was a “technician” in the business.

I like employment offers and peoples job descriptions as sources of independent information and have been able to independently check the relationship between Ugitech and Cezus by this method! The link below gives a very good insight into the activities on the site and its organisation!

Checking back to what was reported there were several “early” reports that did link SM to Ugitech (see links below)

A) Booman Tribune (Oui):-

Oui raised the following question early in September on his blog:-
“Why does the Daily Mail refer the Sylvain Mollier’s job as working at a company producing stainless steel instead of Areva’s Cezus R&D in zirconium products for the nuclear industry with ties to Iran?”

So the Daily Mail went with Stainless Steel – which is Ugitech’s product line and from what I have found, got it right.

B) france/2012/09/06/01016-20120906ARTFIG00606-haute-savoie-3-des-4-morts-tues-d-une-balle-dans-la-tete.php

Massacre à Chevaline le point 24 heures après (2012-09-06 17:56:58)


yvan duteuch a posté le 6-09-2012 à 15:48

Post #1
This is the site that TS posted on too.

Significance :-
It would appear that Ugitech and Stainless steel was not a good enough story for the press and that Cezus R&D sharing the site provided the required spin that various editors went with!

However SM working on a shared site in whatever capacity, one can not rule out access to information other than that belonging to Ugitech.

Both Ugitech and Cezus CRC have R&D on the site (I have no info, as yet, to suggest that Timet have R&D at the site) and raises opportunities for shared technology and joint development projects.

If indeed SM was involved with welding of alloys(stainless steel), an important area in the R&D of new types of metals/alloys, as you have to be sure that you can join/weld new materials that are to be used in demanding industrial applications (nuclear included) in a way that will withstand the forces which will be applied (think …tubes/boilers/turbines and the enormous pressures etc). See link below of importance of welding new metals/ alloys with reference to the Indian nuclear program .

So SM had knowlege from within his own field of expertise (welding of stainless/ alloys) of interest to a 3rd party and one does not have to look outside of his direct employment.(although it is compelling to do so given the nature of the other businesses at the site). One could speculate that the 3 businesses share the same address due to synergies that accrue to all three of them. These synergies result from cutting edge R&D into Stainless Steel, Titanium and Zirconium with French,Swiss and USA benifitial ownership and interests which are rolled out to a focused market.

Also worthy of note is that the sale prospectus last year (2012) of the Timet business lists its biggest market as defence and aerospace at 75% of sales, with a further 15% of sales being to the Company that ended up buying Timet !

7-5-2013 at 11:32:36
7-5-2013 at 11:38:34

@Lars, if I remember correctly, the gendarme/police angle ws because of the likely number of magazines used ?

Did you pick up Zak Martins ‘profile’ ?

@SeeBee, it backs up what Marilyn said before about editors pushing their hacks for sensational storylines.

I have a feeling, when stripped back, the answer will be very simple, just a feeling, that’s all.

7-5-2013 at 11:44:30

@ Lars

I can think of some arguments against your “Piste Police,” but also of one strong argument in favour: the ease with which the perpetrator fled from the scene. Familiarity with the local geography would certainly be an advantage in that, but familiarity with police procedure even more so.

If you know a bit about police procedure, you will know that there are rigidly defined formulae governing how police dragnets are set up. Depending upon the nature of the incident, the time elapsed since the incident, the available manpower and so forth, a police dragnet will be set up in a very specific manner. There is nothing improvised about this – if you know the formulae, if you perhaps even still have your old textbooks from the police academy, you can predict precisely what the police are going to do at every stage.

In Germany, there have been several cases of rogue cops moonlighting as bank robbers and so forth. The common trait of all these cases was that the offenders waltzed through the police dragnets with ease, simply because they knew how the system worked.

7-5-2013 at 11:50:32

“8 sept. 2012 – Sylvain Mollier is the name of the cyclist who was also shot down on ……you will find a reference that he worked at Ugitech, again in Ugine”

It’s been there all along……

7-5-2013 at 12:07:57

@See_Bee at 10:46:15

Thank you so much! Tremendous additional insight to my continual effort searching for an exceptional link. The existence of the 3 companies had been reported by me, Cézus/Areva produces the raw material for Timet, an US company. Schmolz & Bickenbach AG bought Ugitech, I believe more commercial end products than for the nuclear industry. All companies profit from the extensive Areva patents for processes and materials

I had also posted about a move of Timet from Ugine to Grignon. The promised creation of extra jobs was a lie, the jobs were moved from Ugine. The city of Grignon had provided support for the local investment.

As you have noticed in my recent posts, Saad al-Hilli had worked in jobs for manufacturing of advanced alloy processing:

… before he went to SSTL most recently he had done some work on
the stresses of a sputtering chamber

This technology is used to make superalloys as applicable in nuclear materials, highly sophisticated. Now and then a link to Sweden keeps cropping up!?

and more recently …

We have had a most extensive discussion about possible links to the nuclear option. Just as EM is stubborn in his argument the motive lies in England from the outset, I was convinced SM and SAH had a meeting planned. We have covered all details, but decided to give it a rest. I have not forgotten Cézus/Areva/Timet and Ugine. I’ve looked at patented processes I could find on the Internet, just last week I looked at nanotechnology again.

A long time ago …

Mr Al-Hilli earned up to £28 an hour as a freelance engineer and his CV reveals he worked on projects including designing a ‘plasma generator’ for a company called Surrey NanoSystems Ltd.

7-5-2013 at 12:11:02

Just a reminder of the Tour de France in the area on the 20th July:

The day before, through Albertville etc.

@Marilyn, I posted something that I think I put either the wrong address or Name, if you find it can you put it in the ‘poubelle’ !


Maybe someone would like to have a look through the photos:

7-5-2013 at 12:15:01

@Marilyn Z.

I (re)searched Internet for info Dr Petiot and “The Pond”

I posted a comment.

7-5-2013 at 13:12:22

@ lars Ha Ha
@alex & all The tea-set Truthers

Film buff and student of human behaviour signing in.
Sous la Sable by Mr Ozon also provoked palpable horror. N’est pas?
I ‘lost’ my three year old brother once for several hours and even now I can hardly bear to think about it.

I think France has got a very particular character and culture but human behaviour is universal wherever you are or happen to live.

I might have mentioned this before but in Australia it is thought that some fires are started deliberately not just by arsonists but also by casual fire-fighters who get paid quite good fees. Shocking.

7-5-2013 at 13:40:19

@Lynda & Peter

Yes, the number of magazines, the knowledge how to leave no traces at the crime scene (common for Chevaline and Chablais), and how to avoid getting caught. Knowing the number of people on duty. How to mislead the police and so on.

The attractive thing for me is also that it could give a motive for the Chablais killings, a thing that I have been thinking a lot about, since I believe there might be a link to Chevaline.

7-5-2013 at 13:57:35


I was looking for Cédric from Doussard, this article starts from a couple of hours in:

Villagers were asked if they saw a speeding car ….

We’ve seen it before, what I like is the way it breaks down the timings, starting from the bottom, Zainab dead, then alive… the brothers ‘feud’, by the next morning being reported – who told them this problem so quickly ?

7-5-2013 at 14:03:37

@ JCave

Wherever you go, the majority of serial arsonists are part-time fire-fighters. They set fire not only for monetary gain, but also to get a chance to play the hero, to have some excitement in their lives, or because fires sexually arouse them.

Mulling over the foregoing point … @ Lars, what I feel the Chevaline murders and the Chablais murders have in common is that they are all extremely unusual and there was no attempt to dress them up as run-of-the-mill crimes. For instance, it would have been quite easy to leave a few false clues behind suggesting that the Chevaline murders were a robbery-gone-wrong, but there was no attempt to do so.

Hence, it is almost as if the perpetrator (if it be one and the same) is sticking up two fingers to the gendarmerie: “Go ahead, figure this one out!” In that sense, the killer could well be somebody with both a grudge against the gendarmerie and a good working knowledge of their methods – an ex-gendarme who was kicked out of the force, for example.

7-5-2013 at 14:27:58

Earlier discussion:

Lynda on 3-16-2013 at 11:52:28

The Cedric from Doussard, was stated as being 52. (Part 6)

7-5-2013 at 14:42:00

@Oui, were you able to read the Le Messager, start from the bottom up !

The car did have a flat tyre, they arrived in France on the 29th August into Calais and took their time travelling around before arriving in Annecy. That would have been the Saturday the first, two nights in Europa Camping. Not the first time in the region, they knew it well.

I read before that they had gone to the Gironde, where Saads property is situated.

And so on, all from the Press Conferences by Eric Maillaud.

@Lars, there is a great deal in there that could be added to your synopsis.

7-5-2013 at 14:54:28

You see the box that the plasma switch is in ?
the metal box made from one sheet of folded steel ?
I think my friend SAAD designed that box
He also did a box that had to be airtight
it was called a sputtering chamber
the were going to use it for growing silicon to print computer chips
what was done was to scale up the old ones as this technology is a dead end
again a cnc cut folded metal box
I know Saad also worked on a earthng strap/heat dissipator for part of a European satellite

again visiting for tea would shed more light on the subject 😉

7-5-2013 at 15:37:44


I agree with you on the similarities between Chevaline and Chablais. They are/were all intended to be clear cut assassinations. No traces left, no clues to why they were executed. The only thing left for the police, a couple of bullets and casings.

Though I believe that Gregory Mercier was special to him for some reasons, so he made a mistake and stole some of Gregory’s personal belongings and thus left some traces.

Chevaline was of course also a mess, but I still believe that was because he did not know that the Al-Hilli’s were there, and he was not exactly on his home ground this time.

I also like to think that he is an ex-police/gendarme with a grudge against the force.


I rather give it as an important reference, not being sure that everything there is correct.


I find See-Bee’s information above important so I change Mollier’s and his father’s employer to Ugitech in the summary.

7-5-2013 at 15:47:41

@Lars, it gives a time stamp to the press conférences, in order, you have to read them bottom up – they were ‘facts’ given by Maillaud. From when he started to finished day and time.

I’ll try to find the actual links to the press conferences that are on film, later.

7-5-2013 at 15:49:54

If he is an ex-police/gendarme, probably from Annemasse, I believe that the Chablais killings are unsettled affairs that he could not handle the usual way since he was kicked out of the force, so he decided, like som French Dirty Harry, to create justice his own way. Maire could have been one of his “enemies” within the force.

7-5-2013 at 15:55:56


I think I have the links to the press conferences. I was just not sure if I should add them, but I can do that.

7-5-2013 at 15:57:49

15.24 The family arrived via Calais.

15.24 The family spent quite a long time in France before getting to Annecy. Mr Maillaud says police will try to reconstruct their journey.

7-5-2013 at 15:59:45


re ‘Hence, it is almost as if the perpetrator (if it be one and the same) is sticking up two fingers to the gendarmerie: “Go ahead, figure this one out!”’

This was (partly) my idea behind the ‘mask’ scenario.

Because I can understand the ‘figure this one out’ attitude which X might have had

What I do NOT understand is the fact that AH and SM were present … Did X ‘organize’ this as well?? Or was X simply ‘lucky’ to have more than he bargained for?

– M

7-5-2013 at 16:30:25

@ Lars

there is another case with parallels to chevaline, which hasn’t been discussed here but elsewhere. Oliver Arnaud. P08, killer on a bike, victim in a car, etc–1461137.html
and links therein

7-5-2013 at 18:20:27

Spying and Love …

Former BooMan Blogger Proposes Marriage to Spy Snowden

OT but a sweet headline!

7-5-2013 at 18:29:58


A lovely story! I like Snowden too but not in that way. I tweeted your Booman piece and liked it on fb too.

I received the Grombach info. Thank you very much. I left a reply for you on that thread. I saw your note about it here on the blog and then saw that it was being held up waiting for approval. Sorry about that.


Thanks for the info. My head’s full of names, dates and so on, but I think we’ve not linked this case yet with Chevaline. Lars will know because he is now reading through all the thousands of comments.

7-5-2013 at 19:06:21


Did you see SeeBees comment earlier, a really great job!

@Oui, a while ago you found links for a Sylvain Mollier to CRIA something, was Bellarusse mentioned, were you ever able to confirm it was our Sylvain ?

His brother said he wasn’t well travelled…..

Thanks for Cédric in Doussard, from what he says, do you think he meant he was walking with a friend in the forest that day and whilst the events took place ?

And finally, in the Channel 4 programme, they said Saad had gone to the bank in Geneva leaving the family at the campsite, now by the links I posted earlier, Saad arrived at the first camping on the 1st September a Saturday, checking into the Soiltaire on the Monday at about 4pm.

If the Channel 4 détails are correct then he could only have gone to the bank on the Monday morning or Tuesday, not sure of the significance if any.

7-5-2013 at 19:09:55


Thanks for links. Sad it was not closer to Haute Savoie, with a Luger and all. If his father was a policeman I had been ecstatic 🙂 .
I will file it under unsolved French shootings for now.

7-5-2013 at 19:12:09

Well I guess you all remember from Marilyn’s intro that Xavier Baligant’s father also was a retired policeman. 😉

7-5-2013 at 20:12:07

Just to lighten the atmosphere, it isn’t the ‘wife’ that worries me it is the Mayor !–gets-mayors-blessing.html

Summer, they say it is the silly season!

7-5-2013 at 20:47:05

@Lynda at 19:06:21

See my earlier comment: Oui at 3-13-2013 at 11:52:35

In the timeline (21:00), this interview was on the evening of the 5th, the day of the killings.

I read Cédric was hiking in the area with a friend … when he saw the police cars, it attracted his curiosity. He went to the roadblock by police.

7-5-2013 at 20:55:00


re: marrying a bridge

Yes, we’re in the silly season for sure.

Doesn’t the mayor have better things to do.

7-5-2013 at 20:57:04


Well, she really got herself a stable husband, he will not run around the town after other girls.

Excuse my impertinent question by the way, how does she know that the bridge is a he, or is this some kind of gay marriage. 😉

7-5-2013 at 20:59:24


re: writing about Chevaline.

Lars, this is an excellent idea. Why wait till the crime’s been solved? Write the book already now as a whodunnit. I’ve been thinking that any day now we will read that some UK publisher has paid some journalist a huge advance to write a book about Chevaline and that the book will be published on Thursday, September 5, the first anniversary of the shooting.

re: your early decision that Sylvain Mollier was the primary target.

Lars, as you know I first thought that the primary target was Saad Al-Hilli. Then I changed my mind, and now I believe that it was Sylvain Mollier.As I’ve said I believe he knew too much about the local political and financial shennanigans which included murder, and he was being indiscreet, so he had to be shut up. And nothing shuts one up quite like a bullet to the head.

7-5-2013 at 21:07:05


re: See_Bee’s comment.

I saw it but I did not have time to read it and meant to read it this evening. However, it has disappeared from my Admin. I wonder what of what he wrote was correct that a gremlin decided to remove it … I will go see if it’s on the site still …

A minute later : It’s on the site … Mind is boggling.

7-5-2013 at 21:14:19


I was out all of today so not able to respond to your excellent comment re Sylvain Mollier’s work until now. Thank you for sharing what you learnt with us. All very interesting and it strengthens my belief that Sylvain Mollier was the target. I see that Lars already said that he will incorporate the info into his summary. So a double thank you, See_Bee.

7-5-2013 at 21:14:55


I have a guest staying this weekend, so must rush off to go make conversation.

Speak tomorrow again.

7-5-2013 at 21:15:12


X = XB’s father getting back on the (failing) system?

– M

7-5-2013 at 21:27:05

oh, Max, that passed my thoughts also.

I will be really ‘brutish’, many months ago I wondered if bravado and alcohol played a part in this crime.

Could someone have been so fired up that they didn’t know when to stop ?

7-5-2013 at 21:33:52

@Marilyn re: book writing

I think I will wait, if not a publisher offers a lot of money, of course. 🙂

I believe that several tongues will loosen up when the crime is solved, and we can start hearing stories what happened behind the scene. Who these persons involved really are, and what started this story. As a story that interest me most, more than the killings themselves.

But for the moment the highest priority is to solve the crime so the girls can return to their family and so some people’s reputation can be restored

7-5-2013 at 22:01:45

@FB at 14:54:28

Now I understand, a complete different technology …

Reactive Sputtering: Essential Basics
Sputtering is a common technique for Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD), one of the methods of producing Thin Film Coatings.

7-5-2013 at 22:47:57

I had missed that, but SB for Le Dauphiné was providing new clues from EM several days ago, from an interview with the Zs conducted on June 20.

Quotes from the French prosecutor: According to Zainab, “there was nobody else there when they reached the murder scene”. And the shootings started, as Saad was shouting “run, Zainab, run!”.
If it’s not lost in translation, it would imply SM only got to the lay-by later on, and his bike couldn’t have been dragged by the BMW nor himself.

7-5-2013 at 23:16:47

@ Lars

I think Marilyn is right.
You should start writing the novel right now, and possibly already think of the way to turn it into a movie script, cause that’s where the big bucks are nowadays.
If I may suggest a working title, what about “They Sputter Zirconium, Don’t They?”

7-5-2013 at 23:36:52


Thank you for that article. I had missed that.

I think it contains two important news. As you say, that the Al-Hilli’s arrived to an empty Le Martinet, nobody around. Secondly that they intended to take a walk, i.e. Zainab was not aware of any meeting or any other reason for them being there.

7-5-2013 at 23:45:06


You when it comes to movies I have to discuss it with our producer Alex who is in charge of our MZT-documentary on Chevaline. 😉

7-5-2013 at 23:59:57


As I previously have stated, the children have not been returned to a familiar, secure environment. For these two girls, no chance they will reply to questions asked, worse if one or more French speaking investigators are in the room. They react like a clam. When a child feels threatened when “strangers” ask questions about the traumatic experience, for self-preservation the clam closes up. A child opens up when she feels the need to talk about their experience and start to pose questions, not the other way around! A child needs to regain trust in humans.

Children and Trauma

Caretakers are affected by children’s exposure to trauma, and their responses affect children’s reactions to trauma. On a positive note, individual, family, cultural, and community strengths can facilitate recovery and promote resilience. Social, community, and governmental support networks are critical for recovery, particularly when an entire community is affected, as when natural disasters occur.

Like all clinical work, the quality of the therapeutic relationships among therapist, child, and parents/caretakers is the foundation for treatment of trauma. Safe, secure, and trusting therapeutic relationships support recovery processes and encourage children and parents to do the hard work of dealing with the impact of traumatic exposure. Developing these trusting therapeutic relationships is particularly challenging but critical for children and parents from ethnic and racial minority groups. Culturally responsive efforts to engage families in treatment can be effective in meeting those challenges.

7-6-2013 at 00:09:32


Saad made drawings for boxes for surrey nano systems
I think someone recommended him when SSTL were quiet
To me your supposition is like someone who makes a a shoe box
becomes an expert on shoes
but as I only deal in facts I will leave you to your linking
(and Kevin Bacon)

7-6-2013 at 00:32:41

@ Lars 7-5-2013 at 20:57:04
“”@Lynda: Well, she really got herself a stable husband, he will not run around the town after other girls.”

“Excuse my impertinent question by the way, how does she know that the bridge is a he, or is this some kind of gay marriage.””

‘Cause it’s a masculine French bridge. If she’d married a feminine German bridge it would be a trendy gay marriage. More concerning is that she’s married The Bridge of the Devil. Divorce only by exorcism.

7-6-2013 at 00:40:09


Thx for that very important article … But where does it say ‘Run, Zainab, run’???

So, the parking was empty, no people, according to Zainab? Hmm good.

– M

7-6-2013 at 01:06:03
7-6-2013 at 01:21:41

@ Max
Here I have it
“(…) Selon ses déclarations, elle se trouvait à l’extérieur du véhicule avec son père quand ce dernier lui a brutalement pris la main pour se diriger en courant vers la voiture stationnée en épi.” (27.10.2012)

7-6-2013 at 01:53:05

All of you have pointed out many discrepancies. Here is another one. Had SM been cycling there before? Was he lost ?
Cet oncle de Sylvain, que M6 a rencontré, habite dans un village près de Chevaline. (…) “Il venait me voir souvent quand il faisait du vélo dans le coin. Il aimait se rendre dans la combe d’Ire car l’endroit est frais, il y allait souvent”. => He used to visit me when he was cycling in the area. He liked going to la combe d’Ire because the place is cool. He used to go there often.

7-6-2013 at 02:10:43


I saw that too … but there is no mention of Saad yelling ‘Run, Zainab, Run’ (although I can imagine it happened)

@Peter (and all),

Just to make (again) a little point about the skid marks and car.

‘Aerial photographs of the car showed it appeared to have been reversed into a parking space, and police said tyre tracks showed another car had braked sharply at the scene.’

The latter (‘another car’) is imho WRONG. I am now pretty sure about this. But as this was a very early sept 6th article I expect the investigators to have UNRAVELED the skid pattern in the later days.

It was ONLY AH’s BMW, and there was not other car. The ‘sharply braking’ was done by AH’s car (front wheels) when doing the back U-turn.

Furthermore I’m still thinking about the ‘cuddly toy’ argument. This cuddly toy could explain the 1440 masons, 1515 pictures, 1520 X5, 1530 killing

… because in the beginning nobody objected against the 1440 (‘avant 15 heures’) witness report of the masons … but as soon as the pictures 1515 surfaced there was trouble. How to fit those 2? Would the masons really be off the mark by 40 minutes?

Perhaps the ONF guy saw a X5(?) going DOWNHILL … and the investigators reasoned that because of the downhill aspect it could NOT have been AH (because if it went UPHILL around 1520, the investigators probably would have concluded it must have been AH)

But if the investigators dont go for the double Martinet visit by AH (cuddly toy scenario) they MUST have an explanation for the ‘1440 mason’ versus ‘1515 pictures’ timing. As probably the 1515 pictures wont lie, the conclusion must be that the ‘masons’ simply got there timing wrong … and perhaps even the masons thought they must have got it wrong … but perhaps they were right all along IF AH WENT TO MARTINET TWICE.

Now, Zainab cant remember anything (she seems to have a ‘block’) … but I will reserve a place for this double-Martinet-visit/Cuddly-toy scenario.

… If that is the case, then there is NO X5 and very probably NO UK killer, and EM ends up with nothing left.

– M

7-6-2013 at 02:30:40

Here I have it:
Zainab apporte des précisions : “Un monsieur méchant nous a tiré dessus à plusieurs reprises. Papa m’a dit : ‘cours, cours, ensuite je ne me souviens plus’, a dit, en substance, la jeune anglaise. (

7-6-2013 at 02:33:37

@ Max
Here it is: Zainab apporte des précisions
“Un monsieur méchant nous a tiré dessus à plusieurs reprises. Papa m’a dit : ‘cours, cours, ensuite je ne me souviens plus’, a dit, en substance, la jeune anglaise. (

7-6-2013 at 02:43:37


The SM uncle stuff is known. Good to bring it up again. I have to assume the uncle just says what he knows so this is the truth and thus SM KNEW Combe d’Ire and Martinet. And thus he certainly was NOT LOST. And certainly not ‘the first time he went there’

But even then, I have to go with EM on this. Suppose we go for SM=Target … we still have to find out WHO and WHY.

There has to be a strong motive (to kill mr Nice guy)

– M

7-6-2013 at 07:08:14

“@Alex re:Wikipedia: Anyone who wishes to do so, is free to do it, I believe (Marilyn has however the copyright on this page). I myself don’t want to get involved in Wikipedia.”

Nor would I, but it might be a project for someone who has time and Wikipedia editing experience. Editing is open to anyone, but sometimes involves much quibbling with others; the English article on Annecy isn’t contentious. It’s not updated either. Earlier misreporting remains and last ref is to UK arrest of anonymous man [Zaid].

Easiest solution is to link Marilyn’s data, when it’s finished, as an external ref at the end of the article. They don’t usually allow blogs, but there’s an exception for published authors.

The French Wikipedia lists it under, “Liste d’affaires criminelles françaises. 2012 | Tuerie de Chevaline | le 5 septembre à Chevaline , Saad al-Hilli, un ingénieur anglais d’origine irakienne est assassiné dans … 15 Kio (1 933 mots) – 22 juin 2013 à 18:04”'affaires_criminelles_françaises
The article it linked to has been deleted entirely, allegedly for spam.

Somebody above was asking for an example of a murderer using a gun butt to pistol whip a victim. Came upon this in the Wiki article on Charles Manson: “”Watson struck [Frykowski] over the head with the gun multiple times, stabbed him repeatedly, and shot him twice. Watson broke the gun’s right grip in the process.”

7-6-2013 at 07:26:46

From the AFP link I posted earlier:

1249 GMT: Asked if any other vehicles were involved he said there were tyre marks but it is not yet known if they are connected. “No assumption can be ruled out,” he said.

This on the afternoon of the 6th, from Maillaud, by the evening The Telegraph had printed something different.

@Oui, we don’t have the best Internet service here, I often get so far and then it stops, so never get the answer, thanks for that about Cédric.

@Eugene, do you recall who said the body of Sylvain had been dragged ?

7-6-2013 at 08:06:46


Nice Saturday. Nice Weekend.

A Gremlin is playing with me. I left 4 comments last night before I pulled the shutters down for the night and closed the shop. In one of them I wrote that See_Bee’s comment of earlier in the day, which Lynda had asked me about, had disappeared from my Admin, but was still on the site. So what do you know? That comment plus the other 3 I’d left have disappeared from my Admin too this morning. I can see how the Gremlin’s mind worked: thought, ah let’s play a little with the lady and remove these too. So I say, ‘Thank you, Gremlin, for the amusement.Much appreciated.’

Re: Wikipedia.

I have a Wikipedia account and have left references.

I am going to copyright Lars’s summary (if he agrees) because I do not want others (i.e. journalists, producers, directors and individuals with blogs and what not) to take it. If they would want to do so the copyright notice will compel them to ask Lars for permission to do so and to refer to this blog. Whether they will have the decency to do so, is of course another story.

As NR said one of you could leave our link on Wikipedia under References (but no info) which will lead people to Lars’s summary and the copyright notice. I can not do so because Wikipedia does not allow one to refer to one’s own site/article/book etc.

Lars, Zac Martin has a website – he lives in Spain – so his details will be easy to find to include in your summary. And Lars, you have no idea how I admire you for drawing up this summary. Vow, it is terrific what you are doing. A Great Big Merci from all of us! Ta, as they say in Cockney Land.

Eugene, what about ‘Murder in a Place named Horse’, for the title of Lars’s book? I can already see the cover: a photo of the road, no cars there, just Mother Nature and we must have the stream in the pic to show the place’s tranquility.

Lars, if you want to rethink the book idea, I can put you in touch with a London agent who will get you that advance from a publisher. (It is not my agent by the way.) This agent is considered London’s top – he’s in Who’s Who, one of the two London agents you will find there – and he was once my agent but he then got angry with me … but that is another story.

Max, thanks to you I now know what imho stands for. I do still have a problem making my way through some other abbreviations, but I am getting there and should this case last 10 years, then by jove I will be there!

Bibi, your finding links for us, is great. Thank you.

Lynda, Oui, Fat Bastard, thank you for staying on board our investigation and your comments of the night.

Bacchus, where have you gone? To you I say:

Thank you for the music, the songs I’m singing
Thanks for all the joy they’re bringing
Who can live without it, I ask in all honesty
What would life be?
Without a song or a dance what are we?
So I say thank you for the music
For giving it to me

I will now say … speak later.

7-6-2013 at 08:14:08

Do you remember this award winning article :

Worth another look,

7-6-2013 at 08:43:04

There are also less accountable undercover cops who may be part of the picture
Some interesting details in this report.

7-6-2013 at 09:09:24

Hope you guys are all doing well. I am struggling a bit with the website (for unknown reasons) but just wanted to let u know that I am still following you all & plaza keep the discussions alive.
Thanks Marilyn for hosting us all.

7-6-2013 at 10:19:43

@NR re:bridges

Thanks for the info.

Now I understand, so when I female German bridge meets a French male bridge that is when we get new little bridges! Then the little bridges probably flow with the water, under the bridges, to a place where they can settle and grow, just like the mussels in the sea.

For some reason, that science still don’t know, all male little baby bridges swim to France while the female ones stay in Germany.

Those swimming north and ending up in Sweden are those with a gender problem, being neither male nor female, but something in between. But that is something bridges seldom want to talk about. 🙂

7-6-2013 at 10:20:01

@Lars, with the new information above from Eugene regarding Zainab and the input from Bibi, maybe her statements need to be collated and added to your synopsis.

7-6-2013 at 10:27:10

@Max re:cuddly toy

I don’t want to disillusion you but I think that going to look for a cuddly toy is most certainly something a child would remember very well, it belongs to her world, so to say. But according to E-Maillaud she said that they were going for a walk (se promener).

I therefore think that the assumption, made by many above, that Zainab and Saad went out of the car to look at the map on the sign, to see if the surroundings looked promising, is correct.

7-6-2013 at 10:30:45


The info in the article that Eugene linked, I think I have already incoporated.

I will work on it again this evening, too hot today!

7-6-2013 at 10:32:55


Thank you for all your kind words!

You are of course free to do whatever you want with what I have written here, also when it comes to copyrighting.


7-6-2013 at 10:48:31

@Zainab at 09:09:24

Good to hear from you once again, you got us worried. 😉
You also made a great contribution, it should be worthwhile to provide a link in Lars’ summary.

I met my Friend Saad al-Hilli and his wife Iqbal in Britain and Iraq

Post Zainab 12-30-2012 at 10:44:59
Oui / Marilyn & all…
Here is my translation for the article… Hope it helps.

[Seems my URLs to Marilyn’s blog don’t open anymore, there has been a change in pagenummering? I had kept precise #comments ID so link would open at the unique comment]

Marilyn’s last comment in Part-9, the link doesn’t lead to this new thread of Part-10.

7-6-2013 at 11:07:22

@Zainab at 09:09:24

“I am struggling a bit with the website (for unknown reasons) …”

Due to heavy traffic and some interceptions, further delays cannot be avoided. Sorry! As an Canadian citizen, your Internet comments needs vetting by GCHQ in Cheltenham. Canada is part of the cooperative Five Eyes Network. 🙂

As far as foreign intelligence intercepts in France, Le Monde just released an article in great embarrassment to President Hollande. I SPY TOO!. Therefore if Saad al-Hilli was under surveillance by MI-6, there were no secrets within GCHQ about his life nor movements. Those secrets will remain forever … top secret!

7-6-2013 at 11:11:14


Oui at 10.48 a.m. you wrote : Marilyn’s last comment in Part-9, the link doesn’t lead to this new thread of Part-10.

Now it does. I did not give the link there.

Oui, which url does not open/urls do not open?

I’ve not done any repageing or anything else to the blog.

7-6-2013 at 11:12:03


re: too hot today.

Same here, Lars. Going to be 30. Where I come from that was a cool day.

7-6-2013 at 11:16:01

re: Why did Saad pull up, and why were Saad and Zainab outside the car?

I had a thought. It was mid-afternoon. Lunch was probably before they set off on their drive so the children could have been peckish. Therefore Saad pulled up for everyone to have the snack they’d brought along, but the women did not want to get out of the car, so Saad said: “Stay where you are, don’t move, Zainab will help me, won’t you Zainab.” And she jumped out to help. Just then the shooting began.

This of course means that Sylvain did not get to the lay-by first and was not the primary target.

So … I give up!

7-6-2013 at 12:14:05

@ Marilyn

That SM didn’t get to the lay-by first doesn’t mean he was not primary target, since Zainab’s reported statement, if accurate, clearly implies BOTH SM and the killer(s) reached Le Martinet AFTER the al-Hillis, in whichever order.

@ Lynda

There are numerous links to articles mentioning SM’s body gave evidence he had been dragged under a car. Lars should be able to provide a few. These reports, if I recall correctly, were based on statements from EM. So there could possibly be also a recorded press conference or interview with him giving that specific info.
If correct, but I am rather skeptical about it, this would by the way put William Brett’s testimony in the limelight again.

@ Max

If we go for SAH first arrives at the lay-by (Zainab’s account), what implications on plausible timelines? I mean start times from downtown Chevaline?

7-6-2013 at 12:29:17

@Lars (and all)

I use ‘cuddly toy’ on purpose. To be at polar opposite of ‘world spanning nuclear secrets’


To me the 14:40 timestamp of Masons seeing AH looks ok


‘Vers 15 jeurs’

But if we go by the SINGLE visit and the 1515 pictures, then it follows that the masons did get the time wrong by at least 20 minutes, possibly even 40 minutes.

Remember that the 1515 pictures were discovered (in the news) MUCH later than the masons account.


… Also take into account the ‘Alex route’ … he did NOT pass the 1515 pictures location


… Also take into account the ONF saw a RHD BMW X5 … nobody else saw this, and the time is ‘on top of AH, BM, SM’

It was ONF

You see, the ‘facts’ do not align up.

BUT if you assume a DOUBLE visit of AH to Martinet, EVERYTHING as if by magic(!), falls into place!

Now, you argue that Zainab would certainly have mentioned/remembered this ‘cuddly toy’. Sure … perhaps she (and Zeena) remember it TOO WELL. Because if it really IS the ‘cuddly toy’ than the ‘cuddly toy’ is the reason that AH went back (perhaps mocking at the girls to ‘take care of your stuff’) … and with the whole family killed, the girls suddenly could feel/think that it was all THEIR FAULT (cuddly toy) and they/their-memory goes into a total ‘block out’ state.

It is simple, it FITS(!), and if someone comes by and says ‘well, I dont believe this’ … that is no argument. If it fits it fits. I’m not making a point, the FITTING ITSELF should make the point (and to me, this variant, has a certain simple elegance to align certain ‘facts’) … I simply trade 1 cuddly toy for a complete X5, how is that for keeping things simple;)

– M

7-6-2013 at 12:47:22

Oui on 7-5-2013 at 23:59:57

My comment above 3 sec. before midnight …

As we have been led a number of times by leaked “facts” to the French press which turned out to be EM’s propaganda [re: MISINFORMATION], I just don’t believe these two items. This just fits the prosecution case to keep Internet sleuths guessing, or else preferably leading interested parties on a wild gees chase. I’m not buying it!

As I have said above in my comment with experimental/scientific backing (links), the two girls surely have given more leads during the past ten months. I have years of experience with my grandson between the age 1-7 years-old (parents separated) and from advise of a child psychologist. A child needs full trust and security or will just mislead on questions put forth by strangers. The young kids with more than average intelligence, fall back on primal instict of self-preservation and avoid all possible danger. The Marinet event is a trauma and poses an imminent danger to them.The French investigators meeting Zainab and Zeena is such a BS story, don’t believe it!

7-6-2013 at 13:01:19


Did i just send you a facebook friend request ?

7-6-2013 at 13:10:32


Lunch was often 15.00 in Claygate

[05/02/2011 17:09:15] saad: ok well i will see if you are in later .. if you are them i may come round with thei girls
[05/02/2011 17:09:28] saad: Z & z
[05/02/2011 17:09:30] F B: what sort of time ?
[05/02/2011 17:09:47] saad: not sure yet .. waiting for bloody lunch still
[05/02/2011 17:09:49] saad: (worry)
[05/02/2011 17:09:57] F B: ok i will cook mine 🙂
[05/02/2011 17:10:06] F B: steak and pigmy pie
[05/02/2011 17:10:14] sa3d07: yumm

7-6-2013 at 14:23:37

@Eugene, I was trying to look for the original quote, nevertheless, as I recall, he had damage to his thorax, his ribcage.

Firstly, that would not have been obvious to Brett Martin who found him, if it wasn’t caused by the car, then someone kicked him.

7-6-2013 at 16:03:04

@ Lynda : Le monde, link 7-6-2013 at 01:21:41
«… sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique»

7-6-2013 at 16:09:11

I should have put a question mark after ‘kicked him ?’

I suppose it depends on the damage to his ‘flank, side.

I’m still mulling over Zainabs account that there wasn’t anyone in the parking when they arrived, again does it mean empty of everything, not just people. ?

“Le procureur a également indiqué que lorsque la famille était arrivée sur le lieu de la tuerie, le parking du Martinet, “il n’y avait personne d’autre” selon l’enfant”.

@FB – In view of this interview with the girls, have they been released to the family as he said they would be.

7-6-2013 at 16:09:32

@ Eugene, Lynda

If I remember correctly, the idea that SM had been dragged along the ground was first mooted by Le Monde, which claimed to have had access to some police files, a claim vigorously denied by Eric Clouseau.
L’examen médico-légal du corps du cycliste, qui a été retrouvé de l’autre côté du parking, atteste qu’il aurait été accroché par la voiture lorsqu’elle a reculé. Le corps de Sylvain Mollier porte, sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique. Ce mouvement expliquerait son éloignement par rapport à son vélo.

Denial or no, I am absolutely convinced that SM’s body and/or bis bike was in fact dragged along the tarmac next to the Martinet, whether by Saad’s BMW or another vehicle. Those blackish marks on the tarmac really do look like drag marks left by a bicycle to me.

Moreover, the idea that he was dragged fits with reports that his clothing was “ransacked.”
Mollier’s clothing and belongings were ransacked after he was killed, as if someone was searching for something in his possession, though his watch and cash were left.
I interpret that to mean that his cycling jersey had been rucked up or something like that, he had lost his glasses etc., all of which are bound to happen if a body is violently dragged along the ground.

7-6-2013 at 16:46:53

@Peter, that is the link I found.

This was the 27th October, I wondered if anything had been mentioned earlier.

Just read The Daily Beast article …..ummm.

7-6-2013 at 17:52:01

@Lynda and @Peter

I also just read The Daily Beast article. Colourful writing.

@Fat Bastard

Thank you for the info about lunch at Claygate. It is possible therefore that the family might have taken something along to eat. Yet, if so, then we would surely have been told that a picnic basket had been found in the car, or alongside it.

7-6-2013 at 18:05:23


You wrote : @ Marilyn That SM didn’t get to the lay-by first doesn’t mean he was not primary target, since Zainab’s reported statement, if accurate, clearly implies BOTH SM and the killer(s) reached Le Martinet AFTER the al-Hillis, in whichever order.

Eugene, If the killer had a rendezvous with Sylvain Mollier at that lay-by and the killer’s reason for either having made the rendezvous or having agreed to it was to shoot Sylvain Mollier dead, then would the presence of a car full of people not have prevented him from doing so?

If it is indeed true that Zainab said that when they (the Al-Hillis) got to the lay-by there was no one there, then does it not make more sense that the killer was, as Alex has been saying from the start, a nutter? He was out with his nice new old Luger, his hands itching to test it on something, and goodie, he comes across a car full of people *and* a man on a bicycle as well.

But does this not take us back to where we have been before and which we’ve discussed over and over again.

To think that what is puzzling us has probably been solved by the investigators.

7-6-2013 at 18:17:20


re ‘To think that what is puzzling us has probably been solved by the investigators.’

Q: Why go to the UK if it is a ‘nutter’?

A: (EM thinks) it is not a ‘nutter’

(He might be wrong)

– M

7-6-2013 at 19:07:30


I come from a part of the world where a sunny day with over 25 degrees has to be celebrated and made the most of.

7-6-2013 at 19:10:22

@Marilyn “would the presence of a car full of people not have prevented him from doing so?”

Yes, but he could not see the car from where he was coming, the hairpin curve and the barrier. Though he could see Mollier in the middle of the road.

7-6-2013 at 19:11:54

@Peter et al.

I believe Peter is right, Le Monde was the first newspapper to mention that Mollier was dragged.

7-6-2013 at 19:25:50

Being out the whole day sunning and bathing I got a new idea about the perp (though I am not certain that all that sun is good for the brain 🙂 ).

I still like the idea that he holds a grudge against the police force. His behaviour in the Gregory Mercier murder also indicates that he as Peter put it “is sticking up two fingers to the gendarmerie”.

But maybe he is not a ex-policeman kicked out of the force. I think he could also be a man with an unhealthy love for the work of a policeman. Say his father and grandfather were policemen, and he as a young man dreamed of being a policeman too. But since he went around shooting too many of his neighbours’s cats and dogs with his Drulov and committed some other petty crimes as a teenager he was not admitted to the police. Hence the grudge.

7-6-2013 at 19:32:16

The original source for the Guardian’s Wayne Madsen story:

Now, what on earth could Eric have been thinking of?

7-6-2013 at 20:19:45


have not heard from the girls yet
I mailed social services to ask when i can see them
mail was read …but now reply
Perhaps you should ask me again next week 😉
he said cryptically

7-6-2013 at 21:59:51

Looking for info about the Xavier Baligant shooting and its forthcoming 2nd anniversary – July 19 – I came across this Crime Library piece about the Chevaline shooting. It was written in November last year, but I don’t think we’ve come across it before.

Quoting an interview Prosecutor Maillaud gave the French radio station, Europe Numero 1 , they say: Eric Maullaud, a French prosecutor, said that the fact that the Alps killer left behind a large cache of ammunition near the murder scene indicated that he is not a professional killer and that he more fits the profile of a ‘gun nut’.

Huh? A large cache of ammunition near the murder scene?

What have we been missing?

Europe No 1 wrote : Une piste vraiment crédible ? Oui, répond le procureur, en raison de l’absence de mobile identifié, de l’extrême violence du crime et du grand nombre de munitions retrouvées sur les lieux de la tuerie écartant la piste du tueur professionnel. L’hypothèse d’une rencontre avec un déséquilibré collectionneur d’armes est donc tout à fait crédible.“crime library

I have often found errors in Crime Library’s pieces.

7-6-2013 at 22:23:18

Before I go go …

Tomorrow is another day.


7-6-2013 at 22:30:52

Double-Martinet-visit …
The Waterfall (talked about on the 3-6-2013)
They might have intended to see the waterfall (one hour walk return seems alright.)
« La cascade du creux de l’Enfer:
Accès: Chevaline – Départ: parking au bout de la route forestière. Dénivelé: 100 m… Itinéraire: Doussard puis Chevaline. Dans le petit village de Chevaline, prendre la route à droite, avant l’église (direction Marceau). 200 m après tourner à gauche et prendre la route qui part en direction de la montagne du Charbon et qui passe au dessus du torrent d’Ire. La route forestière finit en impasse un Km plus loin. Depuis le parking, une demi-heure. … »
But in Doussard directions seem confused. They got to Arnand, followed Route du Moulin, turned right: Chemin du Moulin, then left: Chemin de la Grande Combe and got to the Martinet. It doesn’t look like a car-park and it’s not a cul-de-sac as such. They didn’t get out of the car, and came back, following route du Moulin and reached Arnand. They had being driving for a while, time to get fresh air. There were nice houses, a campsite (opposite the post office)… they had a look around taking a few pictures… But it was early yet… What about that waterfall, had they reversed too quickly? They should have had a better look… So they decided to go back, they knew the route: route du Moulin and straight on. At le Martinet, Saad and Zainab got out to check the map and find the waterfall or some other nice place to walk, the rest of the family were waiting for them in the car…
Maybe all this has been said before…. But well, I’m a bit lazy to double-check… it’s 29°C at the moment (not far from the newly wedded bridge)

7-6-2013 at 22:54:28

Nothing new, indeed. This is a very bad translation…

7-6-2013 at 23:16:32

chambéry Le procureur général de la cour d’appel prend sa retraite fin juin
Olivier Rothé : « Continuer le travail auprès des victimes

Après deux ans et demi au poste de procureur général à la cour d’appel de Chambéry, Olivier Rothé prend sa retraite le 30 juin prochain. Retour sur …

Very interesting article for general information …

Cour d’Appel de Chambéry Audience Solennelle de Rentrée – 11 janvier 2013

7-7-2013 at 00:46:05

Just for reference:

10 septembre 2012 (page 2)
« Un agriculteur qui habite à la sortie de Chevaline, tout près de la Combe d’Ire, confie au Temps qu’il a bien vu ce mercredi-là ce cycliste anglais qui parlait avec des automobilistes garés près de chez lui. «J’ai compris qu’il s’était passé quelque chose, le cycliste de la RAF n’avait pas de téléphone portable alors il est redescendu et il est tombé sur ces touristes qui montaient jusqu’au refuge et ils sont repartis ensemble là-haut». Information impossible à vérifier auprès d’Eric Maillaud qui ne répond plus aux questions des journalistes hors des conférences de presse.
Au camping «Le Solitaire du lac», (…) le directeur ne parle pas avec la presse, à la demande de la police. Plusieurs faits sont cependant vérifiés: les al-Hilli ont déjà séjourné dans le camping l’an passé et Saad s’est longuement entretenu le matin même du drame avec la fille du directeur afin qu’elle lui conseille de nouveaux sites à visiter. Ils sont partis en promenade ce mercredi 5 août en début d’après-midi. »

7-7-2013 at 05:10:55

Question regarding copyrighting lars’ summary:

I am not clear about something – ALL the information in the summary is public and a large number involve details that were gone over and over in other blogs and/or articles (such as the famous Sunday Times one). The pictures are from the newspaper as well and I believe different people assembled the Hoskins DE photos over time from the newspaper accounts (and the newspaper i suppose have the controlling legal right there). Tim V, in particular has found the DE article with the extended view that includes the “may be bike”.

As to the background information of say, the Al hillis, i know i have all of the information from ages ago, mostly through people who did research on CM, stretching over literally, thousands of comments, going back to Septemeber 2012 (in fact, there’s a lot more information available about saad’s family than lars has included, but i for one hesitate contributing any from my own collection because of i don’t wish to have my own painstakingly collected files to be copyrighted). Same about Mollier – including his employment at UGint – I know I have all that in my own summary as well, having come across it through CM and DI, where many people including some who could translate from Arabic added information.

I have been using my own summary for quite a while now, updating as things move along. my summary is categirized according to “known knowns”, “unknown knowns’ and “known unknowns”. The synopsis is somewhere on CM but unfortunately, it’s difficult to search on that site.

Also we have seen all the facebook information from leo before as well as the other Mollier family information. I know I have seen some additional tid-bits from other social network pages, some of which pages have now been scrubbed, but the information is still available.

Lars has been meticulously going through the old comments here on MZT and the summary is a valuable collation of the more-or-less known facts in one place.

However, to my question: how is it possible to copyright public information that was put out on several blogs (if at different times and in different order)? are you planning to copyright the actual known information or just the sequence as it appears in the summary?

Or may be the plan is to copyright a particular crime scenario? or analysis presented on this blog?

Considering legal ramifications, the mark-ups on the tinyurl pictures Max has done can probably be considered proprietary – to him, as he is the one who has done them and retains legal title to them, should he wish to exercise it. of course, others can do their own edits on the known photos. By the same token, the analysis of the skid marks resulting in the conclusion (with >98% confidence) they are not from SAH’s vehicle could be considered a joint information worked out by Tim V (who posted those conclusions many months ago on CM), to which valuable additional considerations were added by people here like Qui, max and others knowledgeable in cars who helped fix the information.

So I guess i am not sure what the copyrighting exercise is about or what specific information is to be considered proprietary to this blog, or any other, for that matter. To the best of my knowledge, copyright protects privately developed property, be it intellectual or mechanical or linguistic (really anything that merits the “TM” label).

7-7-2013 at 08:10:11


re: Copyright

Thank you for your query.

A newspaper is copyright. A magazine is copyright. A website is copyright. A book is copyright. Photos are copyright. Even if material has appeared elsewhere, if it is rewritten and published elsewhere there is a copyright on that rewrite. This way, I will copyright Lars’s summary to Lars. He compiled the information, he wrote the summary, it is his intellectual property. He is allowing me to use it on this website, but I, for example, will also not be able to republish it elsewhere and claim I am its creator.

If Max has an objection to Lars giving links to the photos he has marked up, then Max will tell Lars and me so, and I will put a copyright on such photos.

I will also copyright those whose photos Lars will link to to their original copyright holders.

So, thank you for your concern, but as you will see, we will do it the legal way.

7-7-2013 at 08:21:42


Thank you for the info about the appeal court judge having retired. End of June is the time to begin retirement or transfer here in France. As for transferring Prosecutor Maillaud, I do not think this will happen. The dossier must be vast and his replacement would need some time to study it, and that would just delay the investigation.


Thanks for the enlightenment re the Crime Library piece. Confirms my opinion of Crime Library. They are most unreliable and must never be used as a reference.

I hope you will drive to the newly-wedded bridge and take him a slice of ‘flan’.

7-7-2013 at 08:23:10


This is a new one on me: but things make sense if this was the activity that afternoon.

We used to do treasure hunts with my dad. In fact we used to write the clues for some of them. ( My favourite one involved going over every hump-back bridge in Kent. Now all flattened). We must have driven around the same lanes etc loads of times.

I wonder who writes the clues for the online versions.???

E-Mallaud did state that Saads laptop in the car was ‘speaking’.
The idea is to find the cache and leave something in it as well.

I suppose this would indeed look suspicious to locals if they didn’t know their area was being used for geocaching.

7-7-2013 at 08:48:04

@Marlin re: copyright

You can never copyright facts. Some companies have though tried to take out a patent on certain words!

However everything written on this site is copyrighted by Marilyn as you can see at the bottom line on every page. That means that people can not copy text from here in verbatim without asking Marilyn. But if someone uses the material in this blog and writes some story in his/her own words about Chevaline, nobody can stop that.

I trust Marilyn will handle this correctly.

7-7-2013 at 09:36:38

It is going to be very hot today too, but before I go out in the sun I will write one post.

I have noticed another common factor for the Chablais killings and the Chevaline killings.

Of these 6 killings, three (Marchal, Meynet, Desbiolles) were executed in the victim’s home, three (Maire, Mercier and Mollier) outside of their home (hmm, lot of M’s there).

Why? Simply because the first three lived in their own houses/villas, while the latter three lived in blocks of flats.

If the victim lives in a house of his own, the perpetrator knows where to find him and he is easy prey. This killer chose to shoot the victims through the windows of the house, or when they were out in the garden, always from a distance.

When the victim lives in a flat it is much more difficult to shoot him in his home, especially if he is not living on the ground floor.

To shoot someone outside also introduces a difficulty (in a premeditated murder), since you have to know where the target is, and the surroundings have to be suitable.

In the Maire case (ex-policeman), the perpetrator might have had personal knowledge where he was going to be, he however failed to kill Maire though he tried twice.

In the Mercier case I believe that the killer had set up a meeting with Mercier, probably through one of these homosex-sites that Mercier frequented, at the road/lay-by outside Annemasse. Mercier was already late to a meeting with some friends at a restaurant. “Knowing” the Chablais-killer I don’t believe he said anything to Mercier through the open car window, but just shot him twice in the head.

Mercier and Mollier were the only ones that at least had a possibility to see the killer, before they died. But I am not certain that they did.

Mollier, I don’t have to explain. The problem with him, would for the killer be, how to know when he was going to be at a place suitable for shooting.

7-7-2013 at 09:52:02


Yes, I think you are missing the point.

The matter is simple. Marilyn has put copyright on these pages. That means that you are not allowed to copy anything in verbatim from these pages without asking her. The content, words and facts are not possible to copyright. How much you have to copy before you break the copyright law is, I believe, in the end a matter for a court to decide.

I, and several others, have written longer stories here. I then thought about the copyright, since it meant that I actually couldn’t use that my own story somewhere else if I wanted, without asking Marilyn. I however thought, firstly that it is not so probable that I want to use it somewhere else, secondly I thought that Marilyn is a reasonable person, so if I asked her if I could use my own story she would say yes.

I don’t believe you have any reason to see the copyright laws as a problem.

7-7-2013 at 09:58:10


Recently in Doussard there have been problems with getting ‘Roms’ moved on, I recall there was talk at the time of the murders of their presence nearby.

I’m just mulling, in one of the articles I linked to earlier on this current thread, the Dutch couple who gave a description of Saad, Iqbal and her mother, said, ‘we thought they were gypsies’.

Could someone else have thought that, too ?

7-7-2013 at 10:33:43


This is the last time I am going to talk about copyright.

Any website owner holds the copyright to original material on the website. The website owner is also responsible for anything published on that website, this includes comments written by others and published by others on the website.

One is not allowed to take anything from any publication – newspaper, magazine, website etc – and republish it in verbatim. One can however take published information but only if one acknowledges its copyright: this is what authors of non-fiction works do.

No one is allowed to verbatim republish the summary Lars is compiling so gallantly for this blog at the moment. I can not however stop anyone from taking a detail from that summary to rewrite it in their own words for publication. Like, for example, one of the UK nationals can take a detail from it and write it into an article. But to republish Lars’s summary in verbatim would be to break the copyright laws.

Articles I write and which I publish on my website can be reproduced partially as I allow pingbacks and trackbacks on it,but those who reproduce it must link back to my website. Usually, website owners who want to republish an article from my website, email me and ask me if they may do so. I’ve not yet refused such a request.

I wonder why it is that this blog so irks some people. We are not stepping on anyone’s toes. We are a group of people who have never met one another. I do not even know the real names of all our commentators. Yet, we are being accused of being a click and so on, and now, Marlin, you are accusing us (or me) of having a financial plan in mind. I say this now, although I need not justify our presence to anyone, I have no financial scheme in mind with regard to this blog and our discussion. I am not planning to write a book about the Chevaline murders. I’ve said this before and often enough and I will not say so again. I do not even intend to write an article about it. I can not however stop any one of our commentators from writing a book about Chevaline, and I will, and I am sure the others will too, will assist that person as best we can. We are all free agents, as the saying goes, and no one here has to ask anyone’s permission to write a book about Chevaline.

That’s it enough said about copyright.

7-7-2013 at 11:21:01

Yes you did 🙂


7-7-2013 at 11:39:25


re: Gypsies.

The authorities here are fighting a losing battle getting ‘Roms’ to move on. There are, for example, several units of ‘travelling people’ around Paris and no sooner are they forcibly moved on, than they return. It is odd that a ‘Rom’ piste has not yet been mentioned by Prosecutor Maillaud: he must fear being called a ‘racist’. The team under his jurisdiction had gone into a robbery piste so the team must have investigated a possible ‘Rom’ aspect, just as they would have verified police records of robbers and rapists in the area. There was a small girl outside the BMW, remember.

7-7-2013 at 11:41:01



And I did not receive one.

7-7-2013 at 11:47:05

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins

are you sure about that ?

7-7-2013 at 12:57:30

@Marilyn Z. at 08:21:42

Dreaming about Marilyn (‘s-blog) …

From my posted link above, one item struck me while already asleep. I couldn’t wake up for want to write a note lest I might forget. Maybe I need a weekend off and visit FB in London …

“- La mort d’un policier, le commandant Pappatico, tué par les auteurs d’un cambriolage à Saint Alban Leysse, alors qu’il intervenait sur les lieux des faits avec devoir et courage.”

“The death of a police officer, the commander Pappatico killed by the authors of a burglary at St. Alban Leysse when he intervened on the scene of the crime with duty and courage.”

La mort du brigadier-chef Cédric Papatico, le policier de la brigade anti-criminalité (BAC)

( Apr. 15, 2012 – Les faits se sont produits vers 0 h 30 sur le parking de Darty, à Saint-Alban-Leysse. Alertée par un homme témoin d’un cambriolage en cours dans le magasin, une patrouille de la BAC se rend sur les lieux et y trouve un 4×4 Porsche Cayenne. Les deux policiers descendent mais, au même moment, les malfaiteurs (au nombre de 4 ou 5) remontent dans le véhicule, démarrent et fauchent l’un des fonctionnaires, traîné sur une trentaine de mètres. Le deuxième policier fait alors feu à deux reprises sur le Porsche Cayenne qui, pris en chasse par une autre patrouille, parvient à fuir, abandonnant une partie du butin.

I didn’t do a further search on this topic .. yet! 😉

7-7-2013 at 13:01:51

@Fat Bastard

Corrected, FB.

7-7-2013 at 13:04:49


Dangerous being a cop in France these days.

Good idea calling in on Fat Bastard. Eurostar will take you there. First Class gives you a glass of champagne. Not Krug, but what they will give you will be drinkable.

Why not Paris? I know I am not as big an attraction as Fat Bastard with his Saad Al-Hilli dossier, but Paris has good food, good wine and wonderful museums.

7-7-2013 at 13:28:16

did you read my link at 08:43:04

Would an undercover cop be working in the same office as the gendarmes?
Who are they accountable too.

7-7-2013 at 13:29:14

did you read my link at 08:43:04

Would an undercover cop be working in the same office as the gendarmes?
Who are they accountable too.?

7-7-2013 at 13:41:24

See my post at 12:57:30

Q. to Max, in your 4×4 SUV theory, would a 4×4 Porsche Cayenne fit your dimensions of track/wheelbase? This model SUV 4×4 would certainly scale the mountainous track across Col de Chérel, no sound as a motorbike which would give away its presence, an option?

Certainly, a cop killer who hit a dragged an officer 30m with his car, operating along the edges of Parc de Bauges, apparently made a clean break in escape, wouldn’t the event need close scrutiny in possible relation to the Chevaline slaughter?

7-7-2013 at 13:50:29

@ Marlin @ Lars @ Marilyn

Following the argument over copyrights, with regards to a summary of the Chevaline case in this instance, came to me as a total surprise.
Not only does it seem premature at least, and questionable in terms of ethos, but it’s also been basically irelevant from a legal standpoint:

Copyright is a set of laws supported and enforced in a number of countries that have a legal system based on “common law”. Amongst others, this includes the United Kingdom and the United States.
It should not be confused with legislation that applies in other countries, where “civil law” govern such issues. In this latter group are France and most other countries within the European Union. There, what legally applies is the “author’s rights” principle, or “droit d’auteur” in the French original. There’s no copyright in France, and no author’s rights in the UK or in the USA.

I know, it is complicated. To the extent that our lawmakers tried to bring some harmony into this matter some years ago, through the Bern agreement. But things remain quite different, to the profit of specialized lawyers.

I fail to see why WE should worry about such issues.

7-7-2013 at 13:58:45


You wrote : I fail to see why WE should worry about such issues.

We are not. Others are.

7-7-2013 at 15:28:25

@Mochyn, I’ve read the CM script from his website, I’ve also read some of the comments, YOU convinced me to read, which is good, isn’t it ?

I’m sure Craig will be grateful for all the attention he’s been given over months regarding the murders at Parking Le Martinet. I had never heard of him before, so there is one extra !

Please don’t take that as being ‘attitude’. I’ve gained a great deal of knowledge through this blog and personal research and links – never commented anywhere else, have never felt the need.

Can we not accept that we all approach this from a different angle, be it life expériences, ‘knowledge’ or intuition.

Isn’t that how we all live a daily life and yes sometimes it means we are led by the nose, all of us.

On this blog is anyone completely right or wrong, unless we were there or have inside information, which looks doubtful, the answer is no.

I think it is just opinions formed from the scraps of information we have, collating them as Lars has done for reference, after more than 10k comments through Marilyns blog.

With regard to your direct question, maybe EM just doesn’t have the right telephone numbers…

I don’t think he lies as many have suggested, just being economical with the truth, in fact I would have preferred if he’d said ‘no comment’, maybe you don’t know the French as well as I do, that would be really difficult.

Freedom Fries and all that, pouring French wine down the drains …..

I am certainly not going to enter into a row with a fellow Celt, it would all end in ……….. BEERS !!!!!!!!

Then again ………. mine’s a Brains Dark.

7-7-2013 at 15:34:56

7-7-2013 at 15:28:25

Brains Dark, pfff!

Enter into a row .. it’s what we Celts are famous for! But as your buying .. mine’s a nice cold ice cold Guinness!! They don’t do Wrecsam Lager any more do they!?


7-7-2013 at 15:37:30

RE septic servers (cockney slang)

Why did “they” not just ask “what is Saad’s password”

such a simple question

7-7-2013 at 15:39:40

ydych chi o ddyffryn yna @Lynda?

7-7-2013 at 15:41:30

Your Comments

7-7-2013 at 15:44:57

What with Wimbledon, I have problems using this virtual keyboard..

@ Marilyn

Agreed. You’re right. We are not.

7-7-2013 at 15:52:26

Re picnic baskets

a lidl bag makes a good hamper
or perhaps a carrefour in this instance

7-7-2013 at 15:52:51

@ Fat Bastard, 7-7-2013 at 15:37:30

Funnily enough, the password is the one piece of information that US service providers will *never* hand over to law enforcement. Everything else, including data that the user thought he had deleted long ago, IP addresses, registration data etc. is no problem, but not the password. Anyway, the better service providers don’t even know the password themselves, merely its hash value.

Anyway, I don’t see why Eric Clouseau should find it so difficult to get hold of Saad’s data. Major providers like Google all have dedicated international law enforcement contacts. Moreover, the FBI has “legates” installed in most major cities abroad who should be delighted to assist him in retrieving those data.

7-7-2013 at 16:01:53

re data
Saad backed everything up on to a NAS RAID
and Surrey police must have that !
he used .pdf as its less editable
maybe thats why its taking so long to transcribe and drop into google translate !!!

7-7-2013 at 16:13:04

@ Fat Bastard

I see … So Eric Clouseau was talking through his hat. However, I can see that the RAID itself would also pose a bit of a challenge for the police. Standard procedure is to make a 1:1 backup copy of the HD first and only work with that, leaving the original disk untouched. If his RAID was a striped array, they would have to replicate his setup exactly in order to generate a byte-by-byte copy.

Also, his using PDF as the default format might make things tricky for their analysis software:

7-7-2013 at 16:28:21

@Mochyn, now we have a problem, North Wales versus South Wales, except we are always united in Rugby.

I know Wrexham, but only a childs view due to my Dads job, which was too many years ago.

Guinness, you must be half breed ! Or maybe like my family ‘Heinz 57’ ?

@FB, I’m not a Welsh speaker, although my best friend of some 30 years + is, in fact it is her first langauge and a S4C actress to boot.

I do a fantastic rendition of the National Anthem, especially after a few of the said beers !!!!

In fact my French husband and I met because of the Five Nations Tournament.

Mochyn, pleased to make your acquaitance, I’ll soon be supping Welsh Ale, today I’ll make do with some 25cl ‘biere’, I like a drop of Picon in it, sours the taste.

7-7-2013 at 16:33:50

RE Raid @peter
Saad also had mac filtering on his network
the cat5e to the shed was hard wired as the signal booster he got was not powerful enough ..
I did mention to ms plod that my old windows phone mac address
was listed on his router ..but she did not understand what i was talking about

7-7-2013 at 16:40:06

@FB, no I’m not ‘Pobl Y Cwm’ !

Before anyone complains we are speaking in tongues, my nation of birth is important to me, but I wouldn’t go back there to live, after so many years here, France is my home, I hope it will be so until the end of my days.

In a way, that is why I can see two sides of the Chevaline murders, the British view and the French attitude.

I don’t believe we will ever solve the crime, we can question and profit from shared thoughts, even those we don’t agree with.

7-7-2013 at 18:46:11

Murray won !

7th of the 7th after 77 years – as quoted by SkyNews, insenstive as it is also the anniverasy of the London bombings (56 died) – my cousin was on one of those trains, she didn’t lose her life, all those in front of her did.

@Mochyn, I’ll search through the French reporting of Maillauds comments and come back to you if someone else doesn’t before.

7-7-2013 at 19:14:19

@ Mochyn69, 7-7-2013 at 18:09:37

Eric Clouseau isn’t just after information, what he is after is evidence that will stand up in court. I have no doubt that, if he asked nicely, one of those FBI legates could and would get him the desired information by tomorrow morning.

However, for that information to be used in a court of law, there must be a transparent chain of data custodianship, approved protocols and methods have to be used, all the requisite legal hoops have to be jumped through. In a court of law, one cannot have stony-faced witnesses replying: “Sorry, Sir, I cannot tell you how those data were gathered, by whom, or for what reason.” It just doesn’t work that way.

7-7-2013 at 19:26:37

RE Data

so what exactly is “he” looking for ?
a chat that Saad angered someone ?
I cant think of anything that Saad might have kept secret …
but then as people say I only knew him from 2006

7-7-2013 at 20:05:58

@Peter, so has to be legally obtained through the correct channels, I suppose it is reasonable to assume that this may well be in the process. Eric doesn’t like to share, does he ?

Recently Maillaud said that it will take two years to go through the papers found at Saads home, maybe Zaids as well, this is because they all need to be translated into French.

(Marilyn will know this better than me, when do you think an initial enquiry will take place into the deaths ?)

This case will go through the French Judicial system, so it will have to be presented in French.

@FB, I know you haven’t seen the girls yet, do you know if they are with the family as ‘promised’ by Maillaud after their final statement to the enquiry team ?

7-7-2013 at 20:21:40

Looking through old material I came across this helicopter video that I don’t believe I have seen before ITV news , serach for: Aerial images of the crime scene in the French Alps. Sad the pictures aren’t better.

7-8-2013 at 21:20:51

Hi Everyone!

I have closed comments while my webmaster is doing some work on my website. This blog has been so successful and I am getting so many comments that I will be opening a new thread very soon.

Meanwhile, have some quality time enjoying the summer sun and heat.

Seeya all very soon.

7-14-2013 at 07:16:15


On this France’s national day, comments have reopened.

The good people can return.


7-14-2013 at 09:33:35

Thankyou Marilyn,

Very much appreciated !

7-14-2013 at 09:55:10

Yes, thank you Marilyn

Now I have to try and remember those questions that have been going through my head the last week. 🙂

And congratulations to France of course….

7-14-2013 at 10:20:46

One question I remember, I suppose I direct it primarily to Peter, but all contributions are of course welcome.

As you all probable have noticed I have lately been very preoccupied with the similarities and the differences between the Chablais and Chevaline killings, and then especially the murder of Gregory Mercier and Chevaline.

In the Gregory Mercier murder the same calibre was used as in Chevaline, 7.65 mm.

We don’t know much of what happened at that lay-by outside Annemasse, but that Mercier, sitting in his car, was shot twice in the head, and was “pistol-whipped”, but that he was found lying outside the car.

The most possible train of events are however that he was shot twice in the head, while still sitting, but somehow managed to open the car door, stagger outside, where he was hit in the head with the gun, and fell down.

I would, as amateur, attribute his movements after he was initially shot to reflexes.

But my question is then: If you are shot with that kind of calibre (7.65 mm), does it mean that you do not die instantly, but that you for a couple of seconds or so still can move. If so, I think it could have an importance for what Mollier could have done *after* he was shot.

7-14-2013 at 10:35:10

To explain the foregoing perhaps a bit better:

I believe that Mercier was already on his way out of the car to talk with the person that had knocked on the car window, when he was shot.

Mollier perhaps had the time to notice the killer standing in front of him with a gun, or he felt the first bullets hitting him, but still could get down from his bike and start running towards the Al-Hilli car, a car that he must have seen as he approached Le Martinet, with Saad and Zainab standing beside it.

7-14-2013 at 10:44:30

Both the Chablais killer and the Chevaline killer seem to prefer head shots, so my question primarily concerns head shots. I of course understand that if someone shoots you in an arm, you will survive and can move about quite freely.

7-14-2013 at 10:52:31

Leading on from what you ask, Lars, were the rear passenger Windows shot out or open ?

It was said that they all received bullets to the body, Saads could be explained bythe leaked report that he had been shot in the back.

The women didn’t get out of the car.

7-14-2013 at 11:01:02


The rear passenger windows were closed (I hope I understand your question correctly).

If their bodies were hit it was probably due to the fact that the killer started shooting through the closed windows. To hit somebody’s head through a car window must be partly “luck”, with all shadows and such things that you experience with a car window. The head shots were probably fired after the windows were shattered.

(In the Mercier case the car window was open)

7-14-2013 at 11:37:13

@ Marilyn
Thanks for opening the blog again.

@ Lars
I think that you are probably mistaken about Gregory Mercier having been shot with the same kind of ammunition as the victims at the Martinet.
AFAIK, Mercier was shot with 7.65 Browning
whereas the Chevaline killer used the much rarer and much more powerful 7.65 x 21 Parabellum×21mm_Parabellum
Those rounds have the same diameter, but they are very different in terms of power.

Regarding the ability to move after being shot, the chances of being able to do so are obviously higher with a small bullet like the .32 ACP. However, generally speaking, the chances of still being able to move after being shot in the head, or even surviving the shot long-term, are higher than you would think. Unless the bullet severs the brain stem or bursts the entire cranium (the so-called “Krönlein shot” that high-powered rifle ammunition can cause), it is not instantly fatal, and less likely to kill than a shot to the heart, for example.

7-14-2013 at 11:46:13

Ramadan Kareem.

Thank you MZT for reopening your blog

Sorry, FB, but I censored a sentence here. Marilyn

7-14-2013 at 12:04:18

@Lars, I agree about the inaccuracy of target through windows, once shattered I wonder if the killer pushed them in to make aim more accurate or was it all just luck …

That aside, we are told DNA was used, I do not recall that a family member was called upon to perform the act of identifying the bodies.

The shattered glass causing disfigurement along with the actual bullets received.

@Marilyn, what is the process in France for identifying a corpse ?

@FB, are the girls still in the care of Social Services, eventhough they have apparently given their testimony to the authorities as detailed in the post earlier by Eugene ?

7-14-2013 at 12:20:05
7-14-2013 at 12:27:39

the girls are still locked up against their will yes .

7-14-2013 at 12:27:47

Hello everyone!n Nice to see ya, to see ya, see ya, nice!! Those of you who are English will understand where I got that from.

I’ve not read your comments yet because I’ve been glued to the box watching our quatorze juillet parade. I thought it really good this year, especially the Maurice Jarre theme song from Paris Brule-t-il. I had an extra bit of excitement as the helicopters flew right over my apartment building – and I am on the top floor. My chandeliers shook.

Will comment later about the comments.

7-14-2013 at 12:30:09
7-14-2013 at 13:17:36



No, my question concerned the calibre (7.65 mm) only, not the type of ammunition. I am not certain that I have heard or read anything reliable about the type in the Mercier case.

You have though answered my question anyhow, since you say that the type of ammunition used at Chevaline was powerful and would then, I guess, have killed Mollier instantly.

7-14-2013 at 13:21:45


I hope the gendarmes are not having that kind of initiation rites, that they have to shoot someone first, to get accepted. 😉

7-14-2013 at 13:25:19


You wrote long ago that you spoke to Saad Al-Hilli on August 28.
Do you know if they intended to leave on the 29th?

7-14-2013 at 13:29:44

Afterthought: I excuse myself if I used the wrong technical term. When I wrote calibre 7.65 mm, I just meant the diameter, nothing else.

7-14-2013 at 14:02:59

The link to what has become known as ‘the gift’

– M

7-14-2013 at 14:24:26

@Max, that confirms to me that Brett Martin did push in the window, at the point where he could access the ignition key, to the lower right of the steering wheel !

Are you able to perform such miracles on all photos, there are a few I can think of ?

@FB, I’m not happy that the girls haven’t been ‘released’, a few things come to mind, Iqbals sister not having British Citizenship (your insight), do they ‘need’ her to be such before handing over the girls?

I am going to assume that the girls are not in danger from the attacker, call me silly, I don’t think they are – what they are in danger of is prying eyes, the press and w****rs that would profit from an interview even just a photo !

It is about their protection but not from a killer ….

7-14-2013 at 14:39:44

I remember that the controls on the Swiss-French border at Geneva was discussed earlier, but I don’t remember exactly what was said.

Could you easily carry a weapon from one side to the other without any risk of being discovered, except from an occasional bad luck?

7-14-2013 at 14:45:24


I must say it is a very sharp photo. You could almost identify the man in the grey jacket to the left. I wonder from what height that photo was taken.

7-14-2013 at 14:48:23

@Lars, from travelling about, between France, Italy, Luxembourg, Germany, Belgium, Holland and Switzerland, should add Spain and Portugal to that, there are umpteen ways to cross between the countries, even for those that have a ‘frontiere’,,d.d2k

Whilst the main road have the ‘piege’, the old roads have nothing at all and never have, it is very fluid, by car, by motorbike, by bicycle, by foot.

Hey I once stood on a mountain with one foot in France and the other in Italy !

7-14-2013 at 15:10:49


Yes I know. I once tried to find the border between Sweden and Norway, it was impossible to say where in the woods it was. I probably crossed the border several times looking for it.

But I meant if you choose the big regular roads.

7-14-2013 at 15:19:06

@Lars, it is only visitors/tourists that have no knowledge of the area that choose the regular roads.

If our killer ‘escaped’ he wasn’t an outsider ….. I suspect he is very much at home, look for someone who is drinking more than usual, behaving oddly, maybe even a ‘lurker’ on this blog and others, there are so many others, including French ones – so I hope that Eric Maillaud and his team are looking for a common link, there will be one.

7-14-2013 at 16:45:04

Happy Bastille Day. Vive la France!

7-14-2013 at 17:00:54

My centime’s worth.

re: The photo. One of the gendarmes wears glasses. What is lying bottom left? And look at those big stones lying on the ground. The killer could not have seen them because if he had, he would have hit Zainab with one of those and that would have been a fatal injury for certain.

re: the killer knowing the roads as Lynda said. Lynda, you are right. The killer knew all the slip roads so was able to get away.

re: How easy is it to cross the French/Swiss border. Lynda and Lars, I discussed this with a Geneva resident a couple of weeks ago and I was told that it has become difficult because of the French banking in Switzerland and going across to pick up money. Lars you asked how difficult or easy it would be to cross the border with a gun. I would say it will be impossible.

re: bizutage and firemen No, JCave, they do not *have* to do this and neither is it the norm. The case you referred to happened in May. Bizutage has however become a problem here in France, even in schools. I also had to go through bizutage but all we were to do was to eat horrible things. No, JCave, not what you are thinking of now: raw eggs and worms.

re: about moving after having been shot. Peter and Lars, because of movies we have an incorrect idea of what it is like being shot. In the movies someone who has been shot falls down dead very nicely with just a little bit of blood there where the bullet had penetrated. Real life is very different which I am sure we all know. I do not want to go into details but Sylvain Mollier would not have have slumped to the ground a light sigh on his lips. It would have been a terrible seen.

What I have not been able to understand though is why the two women had remained sitting in the car. I would not have … but then I’m me.

7-14-2013 at 17:34:06

re: Identifying a body.

Lynda wonders how that is done.

I can remember that it was reported that Zainab had identified her father and her mother. I presume she would have been shown a touched-up photo of each because I can’t see that she would have been shown the bodies. She did not identify her gran immediately though which resulted in questions being asked in the media how this could have been. Maybe the touching-up of her gran’s face for the photograph had not been as successful as that of for her parents. (Sorry, Fat Bastard for the details.)

Lynda also asked how the police identify a body.

Lynda and All, I can only answer from what I know from articles I’ve written.

First comes a physical identification. A relative, neighbour or colleague is asked whether the deceased is XYZ. A physical identification does not however suffice, so DNA is needed. I remember that DNA profiles were taken from the three deceased in this case and the profiles matched with that of Zainab and Zeena and confirmed that the people Zainab had identified as her parents were her parents. I suppose that her gran’s DNA profile also matched hers. Teeth and dental records are also used in identification and a deceased’s medical history is also verified: for example if blood and other bodily fluid tests had shown that the deceased suffered from diabetes, that person’s physician would confirm it. There are also fingerprints. Last but not least is identification through some or other mark on the body or a physical deformity. I wrote an article about a woman (French) who clubbed her cheating husband to death, then cut off his legs and his head. She then drove outside town to a wood, set his torso alight, dug a hole and buried the partially-burnt torso. She had not done that very thoroughly so a jogger had soon stumbled over the make-shift grave and the remains in it. The man’s head and legs were not found, and as the wife claimed and is still claiming innocence, the head and legs will probably never be found – or no time soon. Why did she cut off his legs? As a child he had had an accident and had scars on his feet. (This was quite a recent crime.)

Sorry, all of you for the horrible details, mais c’est la vie.

7-14-2013 at 17:47:53

@Marilyn, that is why I question whether one or the other rear window was open, I cannot see remaining shards.

Of course both could have all fallen out with the impact, with the opening and closing of doors in the rescue – that front drivers side appears to have been taped to preserve it, unless the frame is ‘gold’.

I did read that remnants of glass were found at the other end of the parking.

From inside the car, IF the windows were hit and crazed, they would not be able to see anything.

I ponder whether the women chose not to get out of the car, if that were to be the case, when the engine is turned off it would get hot in there under a late summer sun very quickly, so they open the windows for air.

Conclusion, they had only just arrived when the shooting started or if they were there longer the windows were open.

7-14-2013 at 18:19:37


Can you please work your wonders with the photo on which we thought we’d seen a bicycle right bottom?

And Max if it’s not too much trouble what about doing it also with the photo that shows the skid marks, please?

@Lynda and @All

Lynda pointed out that there were no shards lying about. Maybe when this photo was taken the shards had already been picked up. The shards would have had to be tested to find how the windows had been broken.

What surprises me is that there were no blood on the outside of the car. I mean, against the outside of the door on the driver’s side – right.

That there is not, tells me that this photo was taken when all evidence had been gathered (like the shards) and the gendarmes were standing around waiting for the flat-top to arrive to take the car away. The gendarme standing at the door on the driver’s side might just have made a last verification to see that nothing had been left in the car, and the one lying on the ground might have checked to see that nothing had been left under the car.

So the rear passenger windows were not broken. So how did Killer X shoot the two women? Did he sit down sideways on the driver’s seat and fired from there? Or did he fire from the window in front of the boot area?

Something else too: Lynda pointed out that the interior of the car would have been hot and the women would not have sat in the car with the windows up so the shooting must have taken place immediately on the car’s arrival. Would the BMW not have had air con? If so, they would have kept the windows up.

7-14-2013 at 18:38:08

@Lynda & Marilyn

I have always believed that you can see the remains of the rear passenger window on this photo (, the part closest to the door. In that case the window is totally smashed.

That photo could perhaps also need a touch of Max’s magic. However he is going on holiday soon, so I guess it will have to wait until some time August.

7-14-2013 at 19:05:11

@Lars, I agree, there does appear to be remnants on that side of the car, nothing on the otherside.

But the two front windows, still ‘intact’ although crazed, holed and punched in, that is why I pose the question, why aren’t the rear windows the same.

7-14-2013 at 19:11:39

@Marilyn, when the engine is turned off the air conditioning stops as well, that’s really my point, it doesn’t take long for a car to warm up…..

Just pondering, maybe Zeena, also wanted to doze a little and had already laid upon the handbags, (baggage) that was in the footwell ?

It was mid afternoon, nothing unusual for those that wished to take 40 winks.

7-14-2013 at 19:29:21


It is hard to say, even on Max’s superphoto, what the rear passenger window on the driver’s side look like. Since that part of the car is almost hidden by the trees and bushes there are, as far as I know, not any good photos of it.

However, if the version is correct, that the shooter, shot through that window as the car passed him by, it must be shattered.

I personally have changed my view. I believed at first, as some journos have written, that the shooter went around the car and shot through all the windows (at the car’s final position). I now think it is more probable, that he at first aimed at shot at the car as it went passed him (driver’s side) and then only shot through the windows facing the lay-by.

7-14-2013 at 19:38:23

I did not wash the bodies at the grave side …i was held up by having an altercation with a daily fail pap with a telephoto .
when I got to the graveside my mutual friends said it had been quite a shock and was probably better off not looking.
Zainab had only met her gran in Sweedistan once before at her grandads funeral at the end of may 2011

7-14-2013 at 19:41:40

Both sides can be seen to have white holes on the window struts, can you see any damage to the fixed rear windows over the boot ?

7-14-2013 at 19:47:14

While I remember it I should also like to apologize to Oui. Now when I have been going through old posts I see that I often have missed Oui’s posts. I missed for instance the videos he posted in the beginning of this thread (and repeated myself part of it later).

I guess these misses are partly due to the fact that Oui is so secretive that Marilyn has to accept some of his posts before they become visible. 😉
They then end up among the posts I thought I had already read. I very seldom go back and read “old” posts. Well, that is my excuse, anyhow.

Now I have though had the opportunity to read them all. 🙂

7-14-2013 at 20:13:58

They are still not getting around to trying Nigerian John. He is due in court tomorrow, but only “for mention.”

Court 3 – sitting at 10:15 am
For Mention (Defendant to Attend)
T20130018 JOHN Abiodun D

7-14-2013 at 20:14:45

@Fat Bastard

Please do not address me as MZT. My name is Marilyn. I hate the use of those initials. Marilyn. Marilyn. Marilyn.

7-14-2013 at 20:23:01

He must be a hard nut to crack that Abiodun!
Has he been in jail/custody since Nov./Dec. last year?


But we might call it the MZT-blog?? Or do you prefer something else?

7-14-2013 at 20:27:14

re: windows

Lynda, OK. Having had another look at the Times photo of which Lars posted the pic, the passenger side windows were certainly broken, not however the window over the boot. So Killer X could have stood beside the car and fired through the closed windows.

Lynda, if the shooting had begun as Saad pulled in, the engine would still have been running, so the air con would have been working. Remember William Brett Martin said the engine was running and he turned it off. I would *love* to speak to him ……………….

Oh, if only we know!! We are thinking so hard about all of this … but … Who knows we might have touched the truth and then wandered away from it again. Of course I can reply to ‘who knows’ – Prosecutor Maillaud will know. I presume he is on holiday now.


Do let us know tomorrow what happened at the Mr Nigerian John court appearance.


Thank you for the wishes for Bastille Day. The military parade was good this year, and tonight there will first be a public concert at the Eiffel Tower and then a fireworks display. Then tomorrow it is back to work or whatever – back to the beach.

7-14-2013 at 20:53:37


“Lynda, if the shooting had begun as Saad pulled in, the engine would still have been running, so the air con would have been working. Remember William Brett Martin said the engine was running and he turned it off. I would *love* to speak to him ……………….”

In principal it could have been, maybe Saad did leave the engine running for the comfort of the others whilst he and Zainab were outside the car …. dirt on their shoes.

I think it keeps the timing very tight to their arrival.

Glad to have you back and on form.

Plenty of booing and whistling on the Champs Elysee today, apparently his popularity is only 26%, last time a president fell so low in opinion was 1968 and we all know what happened then.

@FB, I’ve seen two people at the point of death, I have never and will never go to see a body laid out, embalmed or not, as awful as this question is, were your mutual friends referring to the state of the bodies and their faces ?

Dreadful question to ask, sorry in advance.

7-14-2013 at 21:49:35

For the summary: according to what I can find in the media the family arrived on Saturday September 1st to Village Camping Europe, and moved to Le Solitaire du Lac, Saint Jorioz, campsite on Monday September 3rd.

Has someone better sources/information?

7-14-2013 at 22:04:23

They left the UK on the 29th August and arrived in France via Calais…..

7-14-2013 at 22:10:29


Are you sure they left the UK on the 29th August. I “know”/believe that they left home that day, but they were going to pick up the grandmother. Maybe they stayed there over night and continued the next day?

Anyhow they must have stayed overnight at three places on their route from Claygate to Annecy.

7-14-2013 at 22:25:37


I thought the parade better today than for many a year. The anti-gay-marriage people were booing. I hope the gov goes on holiday now so that they won’t be able to increase any more prices until at least September.

re: body laid out.

In France a coffin can not be closed until the next-of-kin or someone in the deceased’s entourage confirms that it is indeed that person in the coffin. A policeman is sent from the nearest police station for this upsetting ritual. While his arrival is awaited the deceased lies in the coffin and the mourners stand around. The policeman then asks the ‘witness’ whether the person in the coffin is so-and-so and the witness says ‘yes’ and must then sign a form to confirm this. It is not to be experienced.


Yes, OK, call this the MZT blog, as long as no one calls me that.

I am now going to watch the Bastille Day fireworks from my terrace.

Tomorrow is another day.

7-15-2013 at 00:07:44
7-15-2013 at 07:58:33


Thank you for the second photo.

Our vehicle experts can now study the tracks for us again.

Max, I know you are going on holiday, but could you please also do the photo with the ‘bicycle’ bottom right for us too so that we can see whether it is a bicycle? If you do not have the photo email me and I will email it to you as an attachment. Thanks very much.

7-15-2013 at 08:19:12

another warm day
I bet the girls wish they could go outdoors 🙁

7-15-2013 at 08:46:24

I did my own analysis on the tracks. I will see what ‘the vehicle experts’ can come up with.

The ‘bicycle’ picture can not be enhanced, as it is a too low res picture to start with. Of course our friend Hoskins has a full hires picture, and perhaps sold this to make a living, which is only normal.

If ppl want to try to kcah into some server and come up with the goods, please do, or perhaps the good ol’ file name manipulation could do some stuff. I did try the latter to no avail.

The bike is real, imho, because I can sort of proof it. Perhaps another dz reveal, later on. No need to ‘overload’ everybody with too much info;)

– M

7-15-2013 at 08:48:34

@Fat Bastard

Maybe they do go outside. How would you know? You are not sitting in your car outside the house where they are being kept.

Fat Bastard, I am sure that they are with very kind people, people who are trained to deal with child trauma and who know what to do in the event of danger to their charges.

Believe me, those children will be playing outside. The house where they are will have an enclosed back garden or court yard. But this, for very obvious reasons, would not be announced for all the world (including the killer) to know.

What they would want to do is to be back with their parents, for all of this never having happened.

Please, do not worry about them. They are being looked after.

7-15-2013 at 09:07:49

@ Marilyn
Thanks for opening the blog again.

I am back and still reading in. CU8er. 🙂

7-15-2013 at 09:17:57


Yes, we had a long discussion about the tracks. I just thought that someone may notice something now on your very clear picture which they had missed before. Or they may now have a different analysis. As I said before to me a track is a track.

Pity about the bicycle picture.

No risk of overloading any of us with info: we strive on it.

Thanks Max.

7-15-2013 at 09:19:02


I hope it is not too sad being back from your holiday. There is only one thing wrong with a holiday: they end.

7-15-2013 at 09:38:36

I have looked at the route Claygate-Annecy in Google Earth, some figures:

Claygate-Calais: 187 km (no stop on the way, tunnel 48 km)
Calais-Annecy: 836 km

It has been proposed that they visited the house/ruin in Saint Macaire “on the way”:

Calais – Saint Macaire: 911 km
Saint Macaire – Annecy: 736 km

The latter seems kind of tough to me (on 3 days), with a caravan to tow, and small children in the car. This was also no Tour de France. The only reason to go to Saint Macaire was to spend some time there, at least a couple of hours during the day, not just pass it by.

I have no idea how long time it takes to get through the tunnel (but Lynda knows), if you have to wait in queues for a long time and so on.

For a car with a caravan and small children it would perhaps be appropriate/necessary to split the trip Claygate-Annecy (direct) in two parts?

7-15-2013 at 10:14:26

The 29th August and Calais came from a press conference, I did post a link earlier, will look again.

It was also a ferry, arrival normally at least an hour before departure, boarding crossing, disembark allow two and a half hours.

Press reports say they did go to the Gironde, Maillaud did not confirm, in fact complained that he wished the British Police would be more discreet – I take that as they did.

Many caravanners and camping cars stop in the motorway parkings, with lorries, of course they could have stayed at a cheap Formula 1 for example, along the way.

I read that the property had been for sale/sale had fallen through, could he have been going to sign some papers at an agents or Notaires ?

The motorway from Calais (A16) is a very good road and also relatively quiet as is the A28, there is a new stretch of motorway around the Alençon, Le Mans area, Mappy says, just over 8hrs, I’d add 20% to that to allow for slower speed, traffic, then stops – direct, 12hours….. one stop on the way, arrive, one stop there, then on to Annecy, it’s doable, especially as Saad was used to travelling and towing.

The arrival on the 3rd was said to be around 16:00, bicycle on the roof.

@Marilyn, thanks for the info about the coffins, my husband has often been to funeral homes before, he doesn’t speak about it, they then go to the church.

7-15-2013 at 10:15:29


Re: “There is only one thing wrong with a holiday: they end.”

Or for us freelancers: we don’t get paid. 😉

7-15-2013 at 10:56:10


re: Holidays

Oh yes, indeed, when a freelancer is out of the office, he/she is also out of pocket.

7-15-2013 at 10:57:57


re: Death

Lynda, when we get together (and Paul will go for a walk around the block) we will have a talk. No one had told me what to expect … These are things one must know.

7-15-2013 at 15:32:17
7-15-2013 at 15:54:00


When one sees the result, one kind of wonders why they don’t do this kind of improvement for the newspapers.

I am also thinking about using your improved pictures for the summary. But then it is necessary that they are available also in the future. Your thoughts?

7-15-2013 at 15:56:58

One also kind of wonders what that gendarme in front of the car is doing?

I believe the gendarme under the tree is filming the procedure.

7-15-2013 at 16:02:03

That white spot on the roof has been discussed. I think someone even believed it was a bullet hole. Since it can seen on all the improved pictures, taken from different angles, I think the spot really existed. My guess is bird dropping.

7-15-2013 at 16:02:22

@Lars, the deadzone pictures will stay available for public use (that is my intention)

7-15-2013 at 16:08:51

Hmmm, it is as if the is yet another ‘track’ visible. It end at ‘white rock’. Bizarre

7-15-2013 at 17:41:09

re: Max’s enhanced pictures.

Max, thank you for this. I clicked everywhere and sat staring at the photos.

I know this has been discussed before but now, the pictures enhanced, one has a much clearer view of them and therefore one has other thoughts.

I think the white spot on the roof is where some of the maroon paint has been scraped off by whatever they fastened into the rack. Maybe Saad removed that left part of the rack so that no one could fasten anything on that side again so as not to scrape the paint off further. Lars, it appears somewhat large for a pigeon dropping and also too perfectly round.

Max, I can’t see a ‘white rock’. Can you tell me where to look: top left, bottom left etc.

Has it been said at what time of the day the gendarmes had removed the BMW?

I am asking this because as I said yesterday, I think this picture was taken right at the end, after forensics have been and had made their markings and removed whatever ‘evidence’ they needed to gather.

In other words, this picture was taken at night, in the dark, and lights had been put up. Look at the light in the trees to the bottom right of the pictures and the darkness at center left.

I also know that those track marks have been discussed thoroughly and I did not participate in those discussions because as I said all car tracks look alike to me. Now, seeing them more clearly and with Max’s pencil trackings over the real trackings, they do not look to me like they had been made by the BMW. The BMW was never on that side of the lay-by. Saad reversed in there where the BMW stands on the pictures.

I think those marks are not skid marks. Something lies there on the edge of the greenery – Max had marked it with two circles. Diesel perhaps? And one of the rescue vehicles had been parked on that side of the lay-by and its wheels had made those marks. They may also be plain simple water marks (wet and muddy marks.) Look at the width of a mark. That is not the width of an elegant BMW, but a larger and heavier vehicle. I also said at the time of the discussion here about those marks that had they been evidence there would have been gendarmerie marks and numbers at them.

Those two red and white things bottom left of the photo had nothing to do with the shootings, but were the gendarmes’s stuff which they were still to pick up in their final clear up.

I hope no one’s now going to shout at Marilyn for being dumb.

Max,it is such a pity that you can’t do such an enlargement and brightening of the photo where we can see what we think is a bicycle. Can you not try again? Thanks.

7-15-2013 at 17:44:04


Could you on all improved photos, write the source below it, like you’ve done on the last one?
I think that is an ideal solution to avoid that people say that we are using their pictures, without mentioning the source.

7-15-2013 at 17:51:53


I am used to droppings from seagulls (I live by the sea). Their droppings are more fluid than other birds, probably from their fishy food. The result is a splash when it hits something and you get a pretty circular spot. 😉

7-15-2013 at 19:21:27


Lol @ ‘their pictures’ 😉

As if anybody was ‘there’ to take pictures. Nope, afaik (and I should know because I know where I got the pictures from) I only use(d) pictures freely available on the web through different newsitems.

I will though, supply the original link (on the deadzone pictures which are ‘public’)

– M

7-15-2013 at 19:42:03
7-15-2013 at 19:45:56

Rightly or wrongly, I have lifted these comments from a Twitter account of someone close to the family….. which is no longer being used.

Here goes:

15th September
Francois Hollande présente ses hommages au peuple anglais et rien pour la famille de la victime française.. Merci président !

17th september

“l’enterrement a eu lieu en cachette pour ne pas être la cible des média”pourtant ils ne se sont pas privé de s’incruster..

16th December
ca serait bien d’arrêter de dire des conneries non fondés sur la famille du cycliste

17th December Nouvel Observateur
A 99,9% il n’existe pas de lien entre Sylvain Mollier et le meurtre de la famille al-Hilli

7-15-2013 at 20:44:54

Eugene has made me think, Ugitech, father and son, before a name change:

1909 – Forges et Aciéries électriques Paul Girod

Dates clés : 2003, renommage en UGITECH

I have read comments that he was a welder, Cezus have welding ‘sous vide’, ‘vaccuum’ – Ugitech/Acieries de Ugine, by all the photos is a more traditional foundry.

7-15-2013 at 21:41:44

Zainab said
“why are your visits so short we want to be with you for ever” and then she cried long and loud
I can not talk directly to the girls but i can get reports from those who do .
there are other things that have been commented about how Zeeena and Zainab are holding up …but they are not for public discussion .

7-15-2013 at 22:18:44

TCK: BMW from another angle

Do I see 5 bullet holes in the front window?

– M

7-15-2013 at 22:25:15


Trust yourself and your own work! 🙂
In your photo:
there are no bullet holes.
They are probably reflexes, and down to the right I believe there is some kind of mark (for parking or something like that)

7-15-2013 at 22:26:33

The spot on the roof is however still there.

7-15-2013 at 22:31:49

You can also see the holes in the front side widow very clearly. There is a rather big “hole” in the center, and a small hole in the part nearer the front, close to the strut.

7-15-2013 at 22:33:02

I think widow should be window above. 😉

7-15-2013 at 22:35:38

Local paper LeProgres in early report writes SM worked at Cézus production unit of Areva in Ugine. No need to hide this fact unless factory agreed to be silent and remain secretive. No interviews given, insiders vow of silence. In the earliest reports and interview with mayor, this was a certainty: SM worked at Cézus. I understand the production at Ugitech is very similar and on a large scale for industrial customers. The Cézus/Areva facility is listed on the IAEA website for production of special zirconium alloys for the nuclear industry.

Haute-Savoie. Le cycliste tué à Chevaline, un père de famille discret, victime oubliée
Vu 15561 foisPubliée le 12/09/2012 à 11:07

«On parle d’un Monsieur tout le monde, mais qui dit qu’il n’avait pas une double vie?», s’interroge un gendarme.
A Ugine (Savoie), où Sylvain Mollier habitait une grande maison blanche au coeur du bourg, cette idée paraît farfelue. Avec ses deux garçons, des adolescents issus d’un précédent mariage, sa compagne, pharmacienne dans une commune proche, et leur bébé né en juin, ils formaient «une famille sans histoires», assure Hermance, une voisine âgée, qui le voyait fréquemment bricoler.

Soutien psychologique aux collègues
Sylvain Mollier travaillait dans un atelier de production chez Cezus, une usine du groupe nucléaire Areva, spécialisée dans la transformation de métaux destinés à la fabrication de combustibles nucléaires. Il venait de prendre un congé parental. Devant les longs bâtiments en tôle de l’entreprise, à la sortie d’Ugine, les drapeaux ont été mis en berne.

7-15-2013 at 22:51:49


I think many of us has said it already, the journos in general have no reason to be proud of their work concerning this case. On the contrary.

7-15-2013 at 22:54:15

That is probably also why a blog like this is alive and kicking after 10 months! Had the journos done their job would our discussions probably be unnecessary.

7-15-2013 at 23:01:24

@Oui, look at the reports earlier … you are quoting from the 12th, original reports say UGITECH, SeeBee miraculously has confirmed this through contacts. Of course he could have recently changed job, before taking 3 months paternity leave and negotiating 3 years off, I hav ethe links relating to the current situation of paternity leave, I’ll seek them out and post later.

At the outset, Facebook pages pointed towards, UGITECH, not Cezus, could SeeBee be right that it just wasn’t fanciful enough to be a welder ?

The big white house in the centre of town was rented ….

7-16-2013 at 00:27:00


Either way for Ugitech or Cézus, welding of zirconium or titanium alloy isn’t an easy job. The safety requirements for the nuclear industry would be many levels higher.

7-16-2013 at 07:51:02

re: Who Sylvain Mollier worked for.

See_Bee said that Cezus, Ugitech and Areva were in the same building. This would explain the confusion as to with who he was exactly.


I now close the discussion about Max’s enhanced photos.

7-16-2013 at 08:50:58


Difficult to say really. The glare is obscuring everything. That is why different angles are needed. I do think there are more bullet holes. Imho, at least 1 but perhaps up to 5.

I’m trying to get something out of the ‘bike’ photo’s … unfortunately I have no hires, so NO miracles (impossible!)

– M

7-16-2013 at 10:26:36

Alot more employees than I expected, about 1,400 in Ugine plant, according to SeeBees contact Roger Mollier worked there as well.

Ugitech doesn’t appear to have anything to do with zirconium, unless I haven’t read far enough in.

Que reste-il aujourd’hui du remarquable essor industriel sur le site d’ Ugine ? L’usine d ‘ Ugine, Ugitech, producteur et leader mondial de produits longs en acier inoxydable, fait désormais partie, après Usinor et Arcelor, du groupe allemand Schmolz-Bickenbach et emploie 1800 salariés dont 1200 sur le site d’Ugine. Areva-Cezus, premier producteur mondial de zirconium du groupe Areva emploie 350 salariés. Timet, premier producteur de titane du groupe Titanium Metal Corporation emploie une centaine de salariés.

@Marilyn, it matters two fold, with that number of employees everyone in the area will know someone who works in Ugitech, whilst the three companies are on the same site, they operate independently., here is a photo of the site, probably need to go to Google Earth for a clearer view, Ugitech will be the larger part of the plant.

7-16-2013 at 12:36:02
7-16-2013 at 13:37:24

Wall of Silence

This one fact where SM was employed is essential to determine if there is a campaign of misinformation. For certain, his father Roger Mollier worked at the “old” facility of Ugitech. From my links above, the social participation of workers was part of the plant’s evolution which fits with the organisations of SM interests. One can’t deny SM to be ambitious, so it’s very possible he has chosen for a job at Cézus (established in 1982) at a higher level of competence in arc welding of special alloys.

I’ll have to search for it, but I remember a press communication from Cézus/Areva about his death. In addition, no one was allowed to speak to the press, because of “privacy” concerns. Such obvious bs.

Found link from my first diary @BooMan on Sept. 7, 2012 – Compare Openness of British vs. French. Sky News video has been edited, the interview in front of the plant in Ugine has been deleted. This link to a local paper still has factual information that Sylvain Mollier was employed by Cézus/Areva.

“Une émotion d’une grande violence et d’une grande force”
Dans la rue, à la sortie de Cézus (groupe Areva) où travaillait le père de famille de 45 ans, beaucoup optent pour un silence respectueux. Mais les drapeaux de l’usine, en berne depuis jeudi minuit, témoignent de l’émotion et du deuil partagés par les 300 salariés. “Une émotion d’une grande violence et d’une grande force”, souligne Christophe Pellereau, le responsable des ressources humaines et de la communication du site.

Une émotion exprimée avec pudeur par les quelques Uginois qui ont accepté de rendre hommage à Sylvain Mollier. “Il était discret, gentil, serviable”. Pascal a joué à l’école de rugby avec lui : “Gamin, déjà, il était comme ça : gentil. C’est d’ailleurs pour ça qu’il a arrêté le rugby. Il avait trouvé un sport qui lui allait mieux. Physiquement, il était taillé pour le cyclisme.”

Au fil des mots, les souvenirs reviennent : ceux des cafés partagés avec les copains le samedi matin, ceux du père de famille que Pascal a encore vu, mardi, promener son bébé en poussette… “J’ai discuté avec lui. Il était en congé parental, c’était bien son style…”

Cette Uginoise avait aussi remarqué ce “papa très gentil, très doux, très attentionné avec ses enfants… “

“C’était un homme avec qui il devait être bon de vivre et d’être ami.“ Michel Chevallier, l’adjoint au maire d’Ugine qui a eu le triste rôle d’aller informer mercredi soir la compagne de Sylvain Mollier de son décès, ne cesse de le répéter aux journalistes. “Les Anglais m’ont même demandé s’il avait des histoires. Mais Sylvain passait sa vie entre sa famille, l’usine et son sport préféré, le cyclisme… C’est quelqu’un qui n’avait aucun ennui avec personne.”

Savoie – Cezus fournit le matériau d’excellence du nucléaire
12 juin 2013

Leader mondial sur le marché du zirconium, Cezus, filiale d’Areva, intègre sur cinq sites français toutes les étapes de la métallurgie du zirconium, de l’extraction du minerai de zircon à la réalisation de composants en alliage de zirconium. L’entité d’Ugine élabore les semi-produits – tubes, barres et produits plats –, destinés à la fabrication de combustibles. “Ce métal possède des propriétés mécaniques de résistance à la corrosion et aux très hautes températures, et reste à ce jour, la matière privilégiée de l’industrie du nucléaire”, assure Christophe Pellereau, responsable des ressources humaines et de la communication au sein de Cezus.

VIDEO: 100 ans de métallurgie à Ugine

Cézus/Areva subcontractor to TIMET for titanium production at Ugine. Cézus/Areva specializes in zirconium for the nuclear industry and has many metallurgy patents for the processing. Ugitech, special stainless steel products for the Aerospace Industries. Production facilities spread over several cities in France.


7-16-2013 at 13:44:58

@Lynda at 12:36:02

Ah, 2 minds 1 soul. You also found my original link while I was writing the comment. At least now there are two of us, I have no doubt whatsoever!

Question remains: Why the misinformation from the very beginning!

7-16-2013 at 15:47:57

There are no flag poles outside Ugitech …. go to Google maps, the homes that the original entrepreneur built are still there, interesting.

@Peter, do you remember this post and do you still feel the same? Regardless of all the things that have happened in between, it is the gun, that spells local:

“Peter 11-7-2012 at 14:25:59 Everything points to this being a carefully planned, premeditated murder by an experienced shooter: The fact that the killer did not touch his ammunition with his bare hands, the fact that he must have used bleach or a similar substance to rid his gun of all DNA traces, the fact that he wore gloves, the fact that he switched off his mobile phone beforehand, the likelihood that he either wore a motorcycle helmet or earplugs to protect his hearing. The fact that he managed to escape from the scene of the crime either makes him an extremely lucky man or somebody who knew the location very well, most likely a local. The only thing about this multiple murder that has an “amateurish” feel to it is the odd choice of gun used, a vintage P06. I have given a lot of thought to the question of why somebody who obviously knew what he was doing would use such an old piece. I think that I have found, if not *the* answer, then at least a pretty good one: That P06 was his one unregistered gun. He is a local, he is a regular shooter in a club, he has multiple firearms registered in his name, and he feared that he would come under suspicion (either because he is known to have held a grudge against SM or because he simply expected that if the murders were committed with, say, a SIG-Sauer P226, all local owners of SIG-Sauer P226s would be routinely checked by the police ”

Gun laws in France are complex.

7-16-2013 at 21:46:06

I will say tomorrow is another day.

7-16-2013 at 21:59:52


A previous comment to FB about the British social services. I thought, perhaps only in The Netherlands has the performance of social services been haphazard and poor regarding protection of children. Today I came across this headline in The Guardian:

Michael Gove strips Doncaster council of child protection powers

A council has been stripped of its powers to provide child protection by the education secretary, Michael Gove, after the latest in a series of damning reports found its services could not overcome a persistent culture of “failure and disillusion.” Children’s services in Doncaster, south Yorkshire, will be “spun out” into a staff-owned, not-for-profit trust independent of the council, while strategic oversight for the service will be provided by a commissioner appointed by the secretary of state. [Final report]

I hope the two girls can and will be reunited with close relatives of the Al-Hilli family asap.

7-16-2013 at 22:01:04

@ Lynda, 7-16-2013 at 15:47:57

Yes, I still stand by this earlier analysis, but I have changed my mind on the “premeditated” aspect: I now believe that the killer chose the location but left the choice of victims to chance. It was a premeditated murder of random strangers by a local nutter with either criminal or police/gendarmerie experience.

Having done some further research on the subject, it is surprising how often criminals use vintage guns, simply because these are relatively easy to acquire and difficult to trace. Those P06 used to be common as muck, particularly in neighbouring Switzerland, and many of those guns will not be registered anywhere.

7-16-2013 at 22:24:40

@Peter, I’m leaning towards no ‘targets’ at all, the more I read about the Al-Hillis and what can be gleaned about Mollier, they were all in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If it hadn’t been them it may well have been the next arrivals, Brett Martin, Philippe Bossy and his two female friends, then the VTT rider would have been the one to discover the scene or another victim.

I’m intrigued by the shot cow, by the more recent spooking of a herd that resulted in 14 falling off the edge.

All of Lars victims in and around the region, some sort of serial killer, throw in Xavier Baligant, ‘he’ gets a kick out of his actions and enjoys the notoriety.

Then again ……..

7-16-2013 at 22:45:33

I might go along with Peter’s idea (as a possible solution). One thing that could speak for it is the possibility that X was ‘cold blooded’ enough to ‘maximize’ the massacre.

What do I mean with this?

From Zainab we know the AH’s arrived with nobody at Martinet (so, no SM). We however have to assume X was there already, (in this scenario) waiting for some prey

So .. AH and Zainab go outside the car (reasons unknown, possible checking the sign)

Now .. X … waits!

He can wait, because with AH and Zainab outside he KNOWS they can not escape quickly.

X perhaps waits for even more ‘fish’ to arrive (reason unknown, but perhaps just to create greater damage with his 3×7, 3×8+1 rounds = 21-25 bullets)

Then SM arrives

X knows he has 3 mags, and calculates this must be enough to take out all adults. He knows he has to reload (an old gun) and knows his ‘prey’ could escape.

That is perhaps why he strikes now … and why he does NOT wait for even more ppl to arrive … because he knows he can NOT handle more ‘fish’ … 4 (adults) is enough.

So … X strikes first at SM, because SM of all is the one who can escape the easiest. Remember, with AH and Zainab still outside the car, X knows that AH is ‘stuck’.

The rest is history.

X comes forward, takes down SM first. Ah is on the run (not fully disabled). X reloads, AH makes the BMW escape. X fires at the BMW. AH get stuck … X finishes his, now easy, job with the bullets remaining and gently puts headshots in each of the adults. X was pretty lucky.

Seen through the eyes of X … his ‘mission’ was a total success. It simply could not have turned out better.

The police and the public is baffled, and look at all angles/pistes … surely not a ‘nutter’ … surely not?

– M

7-16-2013 at 23:23:36
7-16-2013 at 23:39:06

You know me, I am lost on the Chablais countryside. 🙂

The more I look at the Chablais killings and how that killer chooses his victims some things become obvious. He likes to kill victims living, or being close to, a wooded area. He doesn’t pick someone in these rather big cities or even in the middle of a village. No, he picks a secluded area, where he can sneak up on his victims, hiding in the shrubbery or the woods. He shoots at close range, around 10 meter, sometimes at very close range. His weapons are guns and rifles that are easy available, among hunters and gun clubs in the area. He never says anything or do anything to attract his victims attention, he is never seen by anybody. All are clear cut assassinations. He never leaves any traces behind, except the bullets and the casings (the Mercier murder is though a bit special).

What are then the conclusions of this?

1) It seems a bit unlikely that all his enemies are living in wooded areas or can be “lured” to a suitable wooded area. There must be some other factor involved that made him choose these victims.

2) His liking for wooded areas makes me believe that he has no vehicle standing near by, but comes and leaves through the wooded landscape. He can of course have a car waiting at some distance, but I believe he comes and goes by foot.

3) My belief is also that if we could revive these victimes they will have no clue why they were killed. M. Maire, the only victim that survived, could obviously not give the police any clues.

So why does he go killing around once every six months?

I believe that an additional clue, except the background of his victims, is that he chooses the two areas, Annemasse and Thonon-les-Bains in Haute Savoie, were there is not only a gendarmerie but also a commissariat de police, for his killings.

The third place in Haute Savoie were you can find a commissariat de police is in Annecy (Cran-Gevrier). Which brings us naturally to Chevaline.

I have all the time had the nutter as my second option. When I look at the Chablais killings they could also be the work of a nutter, but a nutter with a motive and determination. Perhaps he decided to pester also the commissariat de police in Annecy with a mysterious murder.

In that case I think he realized that he went too far, since there has been no shootings in Chablais this year.

But it is still only my second option.

7-16-2013 at 23:49:34

@ Marilyn

a) thanks for emailing me on bastille day to let me know the repair man had taken care of things to be fixed and the thread was there again wide open.
B) i’m in pain cuz i’m currently staying in a wilderness where broadband is unheard of and the 10th edition is already so heavy (in terms of bytes) it takes for me over 20 minutes to load (when it does).
Please urgently consider an 11th edition, or scrap a couple pictures (like Zaid who’s officially no longer in the spotlight, except for the pink panther bien sur)
That’d be nice: I’d like to comment again, but I don’t have the tools or patience required. I’m not CIA u know..

7-16-2013 at 23:50:48


After a month of silence, I come back.

I found this link yesterday, I don’t know if it is new for you ?

I wondered if investigators verify the self-service car wash stations. It may be possible that the day of the crime or the next day, someone will wash his PAJERO. Even a madman likes(loves) a 4X4.


Today I reminds young Vinneman and it come to my head this music

Good night !

7-16-2013 at 23:54:08


Thank you for that link!

I guess we will then never know how Mister Abiodun John got involved in thsi.

7-17-2013 at 00:29:11

Re Nigerian John “charges against him sensationally dropped”

Back on the previous thread 6-23-2013 at 20:40:54 I suggested

“Now however, I wonder whether ‘Nigerian John’ is a patsy. He may have been sold or given SAH details by some third party. The goal being to make the hacking activities seem financially motivated. ”

later on previous thread 6-25-2013 at 02:46:21 I guessed

“the best I could come up with was that some information would be revealed via Nigerian John’s trial, and that the police wanted to interview Said before he became aware of it and thus prepared for a line of questioning.”

So now the charges are dropped, but he is straight back to the cells awaiting deportation.

So, with charges dropped, the evidence does not go onto the public record.

Interestingly the journo’s line seems to be that the lack of a trial is all down to NJ serially sacking his lawyers.

Nothing to see here, move along folks!

7-17-2013 at 02:04:15


I have been waiting for this case to be aired in public court as I was of the opinion that it would, at a minimum, give a clue to the direction in which one should be looking (eg. SAH or SM).

I did not expect AJ to be denied the opportunity to face some difficult questions!

So for me there is a stench in the air over Salford tonight …..but from which direction is the wind blowing!!!

Is Richard Elliott a judge to be commended for his concern for the public purse or has he had his wig pulled by the men in “grey suits”!

Abiodun John walk into the warm embrace of the imigration services without divulging the details and background of his atempt to defraud SAH or has he indeed sung his little heart out to “those” who have our “best interests at heart”, and cut a deal.

If so, what he knew must be of some significance to those investigating.

We will now have to wait with baited breath to see if indeed Imigration services do deport him or weather “his right to a family life” wins the day!

If a deal has been cut, one has to assume investigators are better informed now than previously. To be clear, investigators either have a link to a line of investigation or indeed nothing, if the later, the judge should be praised for using his common sense (I can’t believe I used the words judge and common sense in the same sentence!).

So people “deal or no deal” ?

7-17-2013 at 07:26:12


I rest my (this) case. Nothing makes sense to me anymore, so I will make myself scarce.

Some time in the following 24 hrs I will open another link because Eugene is in the ‘boendoes’ and is being stung by mosquitoes while he waits for this site to download.

Have a nice commenting day.

7-17-2013 at 08:30:03

Qui @ 21:59:52

Whatever people think or hope, the facts are simple: the girls are not only not released to care of immediate family but are not even allowed unsupervised visits of any length .1hour and an effort is made to “randomize’ the visits (an hour a week has been stated. Specific relative chosen at last minute – rotating; see also FB comments).

That behavior cannot be arbitrary or due to wanton cruelty on the part of the authorities. That just stretches incredulity. The truth is exactly what it seems to be: there is extreme concern for the safety of the girls. It’s not that relatives or firends are not trusted. It’s that there is a fear – no doubt supported by factual evidence anot available to us – that someone somewhere can “get” to even the best meaning visitors. How and why is not for me to guess.

But the British authorities know and consider the danger to be real enough to justify the extreme, highly unusual measures.

people can ignore that facts or spin them however they want. But the logic is irrefutable, and no, I don’t belive british social services are deliberately practicing wanton cruelty. Were I or any british person to believe that what wouldn’t they believe.

7-17-2013 at 08:43:49

And now comes Niger John. Charges dropped – no problem. Justice for fraud/ not important.

Was he a patsy – used to hack into Saad’s account? did he get a tip from sources unknown in return for promises unspecified?

I know people don’t want to believe in “conspiracies” involving intelligence agencies. But I await hearing of alternatives, convoluted as they may be.

Then we have Qui – with good comments on the wall of silence concerning Mollier. No one seems to take him/her on – refute, agree, differ, whatever. Why is that?

So I ask – because someone should – at this point none here or anywhere else in the open blogoshere can prove anything, one way or another. Especially when it comes to motives. I certainly have seen nothing I found convincing, though i may have seen some tantalizing theories. Surely that is because we are not meant to know more than we do?

But at least, pit would behoove everyone who is interested to keep an open mind?

For me, the facts as we know them speak for themselves – not so much about what is or what happened but about what isn’t and what couldn’t have happened.

Niger John is just one more nail in the coffin of the more simplistic explanations. I know not everyone will see it this way, but probabilities are what they are.

Long live Statistics!

7-17-2013 at 09:17:55

Yes, I would like to feel that the authorities have got it right, because they have more information/experience than I do. I often think this about events . . until the point where it is exposed that they haven’t done so . . which happens all too frequently these days!! Then I realise I was right all the time.

Institutions are hidebound by acres of rule-books, fear of financial loss, health and safety etc etc. They manufacture a whole raft of analytical speculations about possibilities. These are often given as the reasons why people do what they know in their hearts is just plain wrong or worse they just do nothing.

I am powerless but I implore someone who has got the necessary clout . . . . to just ask the little girls what they want, have some humanity and find some way for them to be loved by the remaining family.

Healing the horror they have been through, is more important than all this other slavish conspiratorial jobs-worthy twaddle/ misreported data/ and unfounded speculative possibilities conducted in offices.

7-17-2013 at 09:24:54

Indeed Marilyn “we are not meant to know more than we do!”

7-17-2013 at 10:17:20

I can just about bring myself to believe that Nigerian John has successfully gamed the UK justice system. The erratic pattern of his court appearances suggested somebody pulling more strokes than an Olympic rower.

That said, dropping the charges against Nigerian John but then preparing his immediate extradition does scream attempted cover-up. AFAIK, he has a common-law wife and a little daughter in the UK. Thus, he should indeed be entitled to enjoy his right to family life.

7-17-2013 at 11:10:42

What also speak in favor of the ‘nutter’ is the first hand reaction of both BM and PD … ‘It could have been us’

Now, of course I did neglect these remarks because ‘I know better’ … but … do I know better? Perhaps those BM/PD feelings/emotions were simply true … perhaps there was a ‘nutter lurking around’ feel in the air.

I wasn’t there, but both BM and PD were … surrounded by dead bodies.

Perhaps I should at least keep the option open that those guys simply honestly told what they felt when walking around at Martinet that fateful day.

– M

7-17-2013 at 14:48:25

What’s In A (Family) Name?

(Apr. 20, 2011) – Abiodun’s mistress Himakshi Hazarika was arrested. Abiodun was part of an international credit card fraud in Delhi in 2007 and had been arrested by Delhi Police with his associate Samson. He secured bail and moved to Bangalore.

In Delhi, he met Himakshi, an employee of a private company employee, who was married and had two children. She earned over Rs 60,000 a month. Following the affair with the Nigerian, she left her husband and came to Bangalore. Police recovered a fake passport from her, and rented a house in HRBR Layout in Kalyan Nagar.

Abiodun has been staying illegally in the country without proper documents.


His modus operandi was to send emails on behalf of a UK-based firm. He would con his victims by telling them they had won an online lottery most convincingly. He’d ask for various amounts in the name of clearing and transferring the amount.

Police said the couple was planning another credit card fraud. “Abiodun was an expert in credit card fraud. Using email and SMS, he’d capture credit card details from people and use them for purchases,” Lakshman said.

Original story [Nov. 13, 2012] of his arrest at the request of the Annecy magistrates …

Abiodun David John, Nigerian Man Arrested For Hacking Into Dead British Engineer’s Bank

Abiodun David John who was arrested by police probing the French Alps massacre. Fraud Squad detectives are investigating claims that attempts were made to access victim Saad al-Hilli’s bank account. Now it is claimed that John tried to access Mr Al-Hilli’s Royal Bank of Scotland and HSBC accounts within a few days of the quadruple murders.

John’s arrest by Greater Manchester Police in Salford followed a request by Annecy magistrates and Surrey Police, who are leading the hunt for the killer. A raid on his flat yielded numerous mobile phones and documents, said an investigating source.

John, in turn, insists he is innocent, and told the Manchester Evening News: “I believe that people have been tapping into my phone and accessing my internet.”

Manchester Evening News

Nigerian-born Mr John, who described himself as a self-employed field product consultant, said: “I believe that people have been tapping into my phone and accessing my internet.

John is being represented by Sale-based John Black Solicitors.

Senior partner Mr. Black said, “He maintains his innocence and says that he himself is a victim. My client will deny any charges should they be brought against him.”

7-17-2013 at 14:54:33

Arrest of Abiodun David John was as early as Sept. 25, 2012 …

Arrest over Saad Al-Hilli ‘bank account fraud’ – 12 Nov 2012 00:00

A man has been arrested in Greater Manchester accused of trying to access the bank accounts of French Alps murder victim Saad Al-Hilli. A spokesman for Surrey Police said: “A 32-year-old man from the Greater Manchester area was arrested on September 25 in connection with an ongoing fraud investigation. He was released on bail until November 13 pending further enquiries.”

7-17-2013 at 15:26:27

Re: comments on nigerian john

I find the idea promising that the same person who tried – unsucessfully – to get money from a swiss bank account with an invalidated credit card number could have a need for Nigerian john´s capabilites and services. after all he seems to be an expert on that topic.

– RR

7-17-2013 at 16:31:43

re: Mr Nigerian John

And this man was found not guilty? If ever I am in trouble (and guilty as hell) I will not hesitate to hire John Black Solicitors.

Oui, thanks for finding the Indian connection for us. Same man? Thieving must run in the family.

RiffRaff, I quite agree with you.

7-17-2013 at 16:34:04


Welcome back. J’espere que tout va bien maintenant.

7-17-2013 at 16:41:56

Peter posted on 7-17-2013 at 10:17:20

“I can just about bring myself to believe that Nigerian John has successfully gamed the UK justice system. The erratic pattern of his court appearances suggested somebody pulling more strokes than an Olympic rower.”

But he gamed the system without benefit to himself, merely delaying tactics, ending up locked up on remand anyway.

Perhaps the delaying tactics were the whole point, maybe he believed that the Chevaline case would have been resolved by now.

Acting crazy bought him some time, but not enough.

I dont think he did a deal, he would have got a better outcome than he has.

These are the actions of a frightened man. Frightened perhaps that if he spilled the beans on his connections the results could be fatal.

He may believe, rightly or wrongly, that those connections were somehow linked to the murders at Chevaline.

Perhaps the deportation threat is a means to bring him to the table. . .

I think he was a patsy, given some poisoned fruit.

It just might be possible that he is telling the truth when he stated “I believe that people have been tapping into my phone and accessing my internet.”

7-17-2013 at 16:59:30

@ Marilyn

Oh thank you so much, it’s not just mosquitos, there’s also jellyfish attacking me..

@ All

While I gave up making personal assumptions about what are usually regarded as pivotal clues inferred from various aerial pictures of the crime scene (notably the tire marks, blood stains, diversely shattered windows) because I came to the conclusion we miss too much hard evidence to be able to draw conclusion from these photos, even when remarkably “enhanced” by Max or others, meanwhile something suddenly struck me as rather odd.
It has to do with the BMW itself. I trust FB completely when he underlines that his friend Saad was basically “just a regular Briton” and when he stresses how dedicated he was to his family, and to his two daughters in particular. So with this in mind, there’s something rather intriguing about his car, something that appears to be missing. And I’m not even referring to the “broken” roof-rack, even though no satisfactory explanation has yet been offered to this. No, I think of something else, something that has to do with basic safety concerns, which must have been high in his list of priorities, traveling with his family and his in-law, especially in a foreign country like France, where people have -right or wrong- a rather poor reputation in terms of driving habits.
I know from experience that driving on the “other” side of the road is hard enough when using a “localized” vehicle. When driving one that is not, one that is meant to be driven on the left -say- when you have to keep right, it becomes really tricky, no matter how proficient a driver you are, if only for reasons related to rear visibility, or lack of such. If, on top of this, you are also towing a trailer, you reach an even tougher challenge since your caravan adds up to the initial visibility issue. I understand Saad wasn’t doing this for the first time and I’m ready to assume he was a very skillful driver. This is precisely why I can only assume he would have felt absolutely necessary in such circumstances to equip his car with the only accessory that can greatly reduce this difficulty:

By the way, towing mirrors are compulsory in the UK: it’s the law. Follow this link to learn more about this:
And the same rule applies more or less in France. Not to mention that in this case, the obviously larger blind area makes it totally indispensable. And beside the rules of the road, there’s the vital yearning for safety that drives a family man. I cannot imagine Saad starting such an extensive trip without towing mirrors.
But then, they’re nowhere to be seen on none of the dozens of pictures we have. Of course, I perfectly realize these accessories can be removed whenever they’re not needed, and to a mechanical engineer such as Saad, this would have been the simplest of things. Yet, it makes sense to remove them if you have no plans of towing your trailer for an extended period of time. But if on the contrary you are about to be towing again in the next few days, why would you, it wouldn’t make much sense.
There are no TOWING MIRRORS on this BMW. We should try to understand why.

7-17-2013 at 17:06:51

@Rashomon at 16:41:56

“I believe that people have been tapping into my phone and accessing my internet.”

Wasn’t it Nixon who said: “It takes a crook to know a crook?” 🙂

Oh no, his famous words were: “I’m not a crook!” My not so famous reply: “Yes you were!”

BTW The name Abiodun is quite common to the Yoruba people of Nigeria … 😉

7-17-2013 at 17:28:03

Welcome back, Marilyn, you had me worried for a while there!

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins 7-17-2013 at 07:26:12

So, Nigerian John was ‘cleared’, not it seems thanks to the efforts of his lawyers.

Like you, I don’t know what to believe about this any more, except that there must be a godalmighty cover up going on for some reason.

7-17-2013 at 17:43:45

@ Oui, 7-17-2013 at 14:48:25

I don’t know whether *our* Nigerian John was behind that Indian lottery fraud, but he certainly dabbled in lottery fraud at some point. I am too lazy to retrace my steps right now, but I distinctly remember that one of his e-mail addresses was involved in a lottery fraud, in which he used an alias beginning with “Dr.” something-or-other.

7-17-2013 at 17:43:47

@Eugene post on 7-17-2013 at 16:59:30

While we are at it, was there a child safety seat in the back of the BMW?

Would it have been in the center or at one side? Dont know if safety seat needs 3 point or is ok with lap belt. Does BMD have only lap belt in center?

We are told that Zainab sat in the fron passenger seat (on a booster seat) because of car sickness. The builders that saw the BMW seem to confirm that she was indeed in the front passenger seat.

7-17-2013 at 17:47:07

@ Marilyn, Mochyn69

1. Nigerian John wasn’t *cleared” of obtaining money by false representations, he simply wasn’t charged with that offence.

2. Given that he is reported to have sacked his legal team several times over, he was certainly no longer represented by John Black solicitors.

7-17-2013 at 17:55:13

@Eugene, a good observation, quite ordinary to remove them….

Add to this that Saad (according to C4 docu) went to Geneva leaving the family at the campsite – only full day was Tuesday, could have been Monday morning, before they checked in to their final campsite. long enough stay to take off the additional mirrors.

They are certianly there when the caravan is linked up:

I have huge doubts about the press ‘feed’, more so about Peter Allen and his award winning article in The Sunday Times and his input to the C4 docu.

Maillaud at first said 15 bullets, that was immediately after the event, then no less than 20, the press get 25, Channel 4, 21.

If someone has the time, search out what Maillaud said, that will be the truth.

As for Nigerian John, was Saad the only ‘victim’ ? Haven’t followed it so relied on Peters reports.

@Marlin, OUI – this is difficult to explain, you obviously don’t live in Europe least of all France, although I’m sure wherever you are there will be ‘ways’.

From the outset, I have searched through many Facebook entries and a long way from the principal characters.

The first thing I noted was that how many cross reference each other, with the 300/400/500 friends !

Build that into a town with just over 7k, I leave you to make your own opinion.

I live in a village, many are linked by family, be it brothers, sisters, cousins and so on, I know how they close down to the outside world. I have finally been accepted, it took a long time, I have the benefit of having a French husband.

I could tell you stories from the ‘horses mouth’ (what a saying in the circumstances).

The French are secretive, it is their way, like the Italians and certainly if it is for avoiding taxes.

They very much look after their own, this COULD explain ‘the wall of silence’.

As I recall it was Lydie Ringot (the ex) who said that Claire had asked her/them not to speak to the press, I get that.

7-17-2013 at 18:16:03

On the request of Eugene who is fighting mosquitoes and jellyfish in a jungle somewhere, I have opened a new thread. It is our 11th.

I therefore now close comments on this one.

new thread

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