Saad Al-Hilli  Please leave your comments on this post now.   UPDATE MONDAY, APRIL 29, 2013 Alexander Cartier, one of our commentators, went to Chevaline this weekend and filmed the road and the lay-by of the murder scene. You can view it here on YouTube. Do what the video and leave a message for Alexander. UPDATE […]

Saad Al-Hilli
Saad Al-Hilli

 Please leave your comments on this post now.



Alexander Cartier, one of our commentators, went to Chevaline this weekend and filmed the road and the lay-by of the murder scene. You can view it here on YouTube.

Do what the video and leave a message for Alexander.


In two weeks it will be seven months that this fatal shooting took place. No arrests have been made as yet. As far as we know the investigators have no clue yet as to the identity of the killer or killers.




If you wish to read previous posts about this shooting at Chevaline on September 5, 2012 you can do so


here written on 12.09.12

here written on 11.07.12

here  written on 10.25.12

here written on 09.08.12

here written on 09.06.12



Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris's horse butchers.
Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris’s horse butchers.


Chevaline marking crime scene
Chevaline marking crime scene



Chevaline marking the crime scene.
Chevaline marking the crime scene.
Marilyn Z. Tomlins

1,316 Responses

4-20-2013 at 14:26:26

Hello All,

I will open up our new Comment area by saying Hello.

4-20-2013 at 15:07:14


I think you forgot to close the comments on the previous thread. 😉

4-20-2013 at 16:14:01


Oh gosh, so I did!

Peter commented on the old thread still, so I am copying and pasting it over to this new one now.

Submitted on 2013/04/20 at 2:42 pm
@ Fat Bastard, Lynda
Thanks. Understood and noted.

@ Oui
I notice that you have not posted for some time now. However, to address your point about German intelligence spreading disinformation, let me clarify the unsubstantiated rumour going around in my local pub

According to that rumour, there currently is an intelligence war going on between Germany and Switzerland, because of those data sets on offshore account-holders in Switzerland that Germany keeps purchasing. As the German tax authorities have no experience at conducting clandestine operations abroad (and indeed the first data vendors were quickly busted by the Swiss), the German intelligence service BND has been tasked with facilitating those deals. Conversely, the Swiss intelligence service FIS has been tasked with preventing any further deals, as these are deemed a threat to the economic well-being of the country. Hence, relations between the two services, which used to be excellent, have soured in recent years.

The tip that SAH had been in touch with a Geneva frontman for a proscribed terrorist organisation about money matters originated with the Swiss Post and Telecommunications Surveillance Service PTSS, a subsidiary of FIS. FIS informed the French, the UK and who knows whom else about this, but not the Germans – the whole thing had nothing to do with Germany anyway. Still, one of their partner services tipped off BND, and they leaked this story to the press in order to spite FIS. All that guff about the money belonging to Saddam Hussein and the Germans tipping off French police was and is pure fantasy. The point of that leak was simply to score a point off the Swiss.

4-20-2013 at 16:16:52


Swiss and German feud

Interesting, Peter. Settling very old animosities perhaps?

4-20-2013 at 16:21:14

How many comments now?

I just added them up. Comes to 6614. Oops 6615 with this one.

4-20-2013 at 18:44:49

6616: Around 1000 comments/month (and then the blog was also closed for a while)

4-20-2013 at 20:32:30

German Intelligence BND and the Iraq War … 1, 2, 3 strikes – you’re out!

Pt. 1. The Real Story of ‘Curveball’: How German Intelligence Helped Justify the US Invasion of Iraq;
Pt. 2. German intelligence participated in U.S. bombing of Iraq, targeted Saddam Hussein in failed Baghdad assassination attempt;
Pt. 3. German intelligence monitors future 9/11 hijackers incl. Mohamed Atta.
Pt. 4. BND reports: British engineer slain in Alps had ties to Saddam Hussein

[In photo Saad’s holy prayer book in evidence bag outside his Claygate home – Dar Al Hidãyah Agency.]

4-20-2013 at 23:59:55


Yes, it was closed twice so perhaps the two added up to a month.

4-21-2013 at 00:03:48


re: Saad’s prayer book.

What an observant eye you have, Oui, to have spotted this. And thanks for drawing our attention to it.

4-21-2013 at 02:16:52

Of topic

Boston : how will they manage to find the culprits, if there are as many drug dealers who continue in freedom and kill more people than the attack Boston?.
We are all idiots.

4-21-2013 at 02:29:37

And Chevaline is the mirror of this !

porbacchus !

4-21-2013 at 02:47:58

prayer book
why was saads book in an evidence bag ?

4-21-2013 at 08:03:22


What GWB didn’t find in Iraq, the Claygate police did find in Saad al-Hilli’s home: a WMD – an Islam holy book. Why else would you call in the bomb squad while doing a forensic search in the home of persons murdered while on vacation in the Alps.

To further illustrate the French mental state early in the police investigation, the city sweeper traveling the route Combe d’Ire up to Martinet on the first day after the massacre. Like sweeping all evidence under the carpet and establish for a fact the motive lies not in the Savoie, but in the UK or Baghdad.

4-21-2013 at 08:09:38


re: city sweeper

I have to draw comparisons between Chevaline and Princess Diana again. Those of you who are tired me hearing about Princess Diana’s death need only skip what I am going to write now.

The city sweeper was sent through Paris’s Alma tunnel within 5 hrs of the Mercedes’s crash. At 7 that morning of 31 August 1997 the tunnel was already open.

Therefore,as we say, go figure.

4-21-2013 at 08:13:11


Re: Boston

I was wondering whether the French police would have found the bombers as rapidly as the American police had done.

I was also thinking of those who die in Iraq, Pakistan, Syria every week, even every day, in bomb blasts but do not make the front pages of our newspapers and remain Breaking News banners on our TV screens.

Bacchus, it is known as the inequality of human beings.

4-21-2013 at 09:33:40

I am reliably informed that the last thing that the searchers took out of Saads shed before the bomb squad was called was …..
Ikbals dental mannequin.
I think the bomb squad was called to get the press haggle away from the house ….otherwise they would have evacuated the neighbors as well

4-21-2013 at 11:01:21

I think that what police recovered there was a 24-CD set, not a book

… and just because the label says that those CDs contain recitations of the Quran doesn’t neccessarily mean that they do.

4-21-2013 at 12:08:30

No, they probably contained Bugs Bunny movies. 😉

4-21-2013 at 13:21:57

I wonder if Lynda got kidnapped and is now on her way to Far-away-istan in a house car. 🙂

4-21-2013 at 13:27:48

I Don’t Believe It!!!!

British intelligence strikes again, the Australian webpage has been deleted …


We had a good look, but couldn’t find the page you requested.

This is either because:

* There’s an error in the address or link you have entered in your browser;
* There’s a technical issue and the page has not been properly published;
* The article was removed to comply with a legal order;
* It is an older article that has been removed from the site.

If you believe that this is a technical error, please contact us and tell us the location of this page.

Read more:

Psst … for the readers of this blog, please don’t tell …. link.

4-21-2013 at 13:36:35

A Sunday Intermezzo: I worked a couple of years (not the whole year, thanks God) in my youth on a research station far up in the Arctic. There wasn’t much to do in the evenings, so when I saw the large collection of Bugs Bunny movies the men kept there in the TV-room, I thought, though Bugsy Bunny is no favourite of mine, well, I can always look at them.
But lo, and behold, when I opened the first box and started the first film, there was no Bugsy Bunny to be seen. 🙁
I opened a lot of boxes but no Bugsy Bunny anywhere. Since this is a blog that also children can read I will not describe the content in these films, though it was kind of rabbit related, but I prefered anyhow to read a book instead.

4-21-2013 at 13:52:00


re: Lynda

I think she’s in one of the Stans, but only for the weekend.

4-21-2013 at 13:54:08


re:Oz site

It opened for me.

4-21-2013 at 13:56:01

@Lars and @Peter and @All

re: Bugs Bunny

Arctic, you said Lars? In that case, Bugs Bunny must have come in handy …

4-21-2013 at 13:59:03

@Marilyn Z.

It does now for me also.

4-21-2013 at 14:01:18

Before Eric Maillaud gets an urge to delete webpage:
It has been safeguarded on a server in the US, we know that you can’t get to it. 😉 🙂

But to be serious, I started to Google the prayer book Dar Al Hidãyah (meaning Guidance) and get the impression it’s NOT Shia. Asking Zainab or any of our readers who is a scholar of Islam, is this correct? From my search is seems to be the fundamentalist form of Sunni – Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia.

If this is the case, there is a strong motive due to the current religious wars between Sunni and Shia between Saudi Arabia and Iran, in Bahrain, in Pakistan, in Syria and the whole Middle-East region. As I have found before and written @BooMan, the al-Hilli roots are very religious and important in the SHIA sector of Iraq near the holy city of Karbala.

I guess the invitation for tea in Claygate has to be postponed, I’m on my way to al-Hilli’s family in Baghdad and will visit Karbala to get the pulse of the locals. Just kidding though, I don’t want to separate from my head just yet.

4-21-2013 at 14:04:24

@Marilyn Z. Re: Bugs Bunny and the Arctic


4-21-2013 at 14:45:05

@Oui and @Lars and @All

I will tell a joke now, and it is not naughty.

UN soldiers based in the Arctic find the isolation hard to take. There is, for example, just one woman in the vicinity of their base. She’s a real hag: face covered in acne, dirty hair hanging down, clothes also dirty and torn.

One Private, unable to take the lack of female company, therefore asks the Sergeant: “Sarge, when is home leave?”

The Sergeant replies, pointing to the woman who is at that moment walking by, and he tells the Private: “Home leave is when you come and tell me she’s beautiful.”

“Oh God!” sighs the Private. “She’s awful. I’ve never seen any woman as ugly as that in my life. I’ll rather have all my teeth extracted than pay her a visit.”

Three weeks later, the Private goes back to the Sergeant. “You know, Sarge,” he says, “that woman… she’s not so bad.”

The Private got home leave immediately.

4-21-2013 at 14:51:01


I’ll go to Iraq … I can have my head blown off right here in Paris too.

4-21-2013 at 15:01:28

@ Oui
If you look at that photo closely

you will find that the lettering on the box says “Dar Al Hidayah Agency“.
If you then google that name, you’ll find that it is not a prayer book at all, but a publisher of Quran recitals and other muslim digital content.

4-21-2013 at 15:28:32

Two random factoids:

First, the Geneva prosecutor dealing with the Al-Hilli case, Dario Zanni, is not any old prosecutor, but a prosecutor with the Financial Unit of the Geneva Attorney General. He is the guy who goes after dodgy funds, for example:
That does fit rather nicely with my scenario 😉

Secondly, I have been searching high and low for the slightest clue to the identity of the Geneva man arrested and subsequently cleared in connexion with the Chevaline murders. I have come up with nothing: no mention of his age, nationality, profession, first name, initial of his last name. That, too, fits very nicely. I challenge you to find another case of an arrest in a spectacular murder case where the identity of the arrestee is not even alluded to, as in “46-year-old architect Hans B., a neighbour of the victim, was arrested etc. etc.”

4-21-2013 at 15:37:05

Since the witnesses are given false names in Haute Savoie I guess they could even withhold the names or identities of murder victims.

4-21-2013 at 15:40:40

Openness has hardly been the hallmark of Eric Maillaud and his Savoian investigations.

4-21-2013 at 15:49:57

@ Lars
Openness has hardly been the hallmark of Eric Maillaud and his Savoian investigations.

That is undoubtedly true, but that man was arrested in or near Geneva. Having lived in Switzerland for some time, I have read a lot of Swiss newspapers (and still do), and I have never, ever come across a case where the Swiss papers have not given those little details like the arrestee’s first name.

To my mind, that doesn’t suggest that Eric Clouseau has a say in the media relations of the Swiss authorities, it suggests that the arrestee himself has influence.

4-21-2013 at 17:34:55

The Boston Bombing case has it’s own version of BM/PD. The man whose Mercedes SUV was allegedly carjacked by the alleged bombers is invisible to the media. A police spokesman relates the tale of the carjack, how the unnamed man is forced to use his ATM card to withdraw cash, and the fact that the alleged bombers confessed to him that they were guilty of the bombings and the murder of a policeman. Then the vicious fiends conveniently let him go, unharmed.

The media, which is on the ground interviewing people in Dagestan, seem uninterested in interviewing this man who is a vital link. You think we will discover he is a brave US Air Force hero? A single edited interview in a US Public Broadcast office with a potted plant coming shortly. Maybe he too owns a vacation rental near Annecy. 🙂

It is good you quickly determined the CDs were not related to Wahhabism or The King would shut off UK/French oil. (He has a remote control switch for the big valve under the right arm of his throne). Something else in which the media developed a sudden disinterest in Boston. 🙂

Related to bunnies is Jessica Rabbit, of the movie “Who Framed Roger Rabbit?” and her line, “I’m not bad, I’m just drawn that way.” 🙂

4-21-2013 at 19:20:07

@ NR

It is good you quickly determined the CDs were not related to Wahhabism or The King would shut off UK/French oil.

I didn’t say that. Dar al Hidayah Agency Production & Distribution is based in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Thus, it is most probably subsidized / part-financed by the Al-Saud family, just like the local mosque in my German hometown. However, the Al-Sauds are apostates to a man. The only thing that has hitherto prevented them from being strung up from the nearest lamp-posts is the presence of their US protectors on Saudi soil – in direct contravention of scripture. They wouldn’t dare publish anything controversial. In fact, in my local Saudi-financed mosque (of which my brother is a member), the faithful regularly trawl the Internet for “extremists” and shop them to the German domestic intelligence service BfV.

4-21-2013 at 19:23:39

More to this case than meets the eye obviously.


Interesting about the Mercedes owner … Also perhaps more to the Boston case than meets the eye.

Wikileaks where are you when we need you?

I’m off now till tomorrow because tomorrow is another day.

4-21-2013 at 19:24:08

Second and last question:

Is there at least one serious and honest investigator in this case ?

BACCHUS responds: “I hope so !”

Sorry SAH, they are the strongest and I bow to them.

Goodbye mad world …


4-21-2013 at 23:06:39


Of all the ppl at Martinet, AH is the least probable!

SM was directed (local, bike)
BM went there more often (local, bike)
PD went hiking (local, hike)
AH (foreign, no-hike, bike?)

If I put this to my kids and ask ‘Who is out of place’ … well, nuff said.

@FB, they were not sightseeing, there is simply nothing to see, esp. when you stay in the car (as the women did)

Really, the ONLY explantion which could make a bit sense is the ‘bike’ argument. And even with that, AH still comes in LAST in the ‘good reasons to be at Martinet’ competition!

And on top of that, while having the least ‘good’ reason to go to Martinet he was EXACTLY in time to meet his killer.

Btw, I did look up our much talk over friend Mr Xavier Baligant … He was killed on a parking yes, but on a autoroute and at 2pm

Which is 180 degrees opposite of middle of the day on a remote, near dead end place Martinet.

The idea that the most suitable place to kill the AH’s is in France at Martinet on the middle of the day is soo absurd. And then we have not even started about how X would manage this, and this time WITHOUT the ‘lure’ part … because I sense that ‘luring’ is a no-go for most people.

So to all AH=target believers, plz explain without using the word ‘lure’ how on earth X could kill AH’s at Martinet.

I have not heard of a sensible scenario. Worse, I have not even heard about any scenario which goes with the facts. Nope, ALL scenario’s are just LAZY ‘teleport X at Martinet’ like X is a goddamned martian … lol (I’m not impressed)

Now Lars has actually 1 good point. If SM=ONLY Target AND we REMOVE AH’s from the scene. We have the X meets SM situation and it is true that we do not know for sure what would have happened. But we ARE sure that X brought 25 bullets.

But Lars, removing AH’s from the scene EXPOSES the real CORE.

SM = Target
AND he was directed towards Martinet
AND CS went to look for him at CHEVALINE/MARTINET
AND ‘SM circle’ said SM was ‘lost’

This in itself is enough to turn everything SM upside-down. But no, 99,9% he was not the man, and EM never even mentions the possibility, he only talks in negative terms on SM=target. He simply does not mention SM=Target in his options list … hows that for starters, and he did this from the very very beginning. Never ever was the option mentioned … it was the Press which started it, NOT EM … If I wouldn’t know better I’d get the impression that EM is ‘protecting’ somebody!

4-21-2013 at 23:24:01

@Max, EM isn’t protecting anyone. He just doesn’t have the evidence ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ to make an arrest.

Nevertheless, I would be delighted if someone could tell me if EM, Thierry Schutz or any of his family are Masons.

Wall of silence …….

4-21-2013 at 23:37:23


I appreciate your comment but I have to be more strict on this.

EM himself NEVER even mentioned the possibility of SM being the target. NEVER!

And that has nothing to do with ‘having no evidence’. Because explicitly LEAVING OUT the option is just plain ridiculous. There has to be a reason for this.

Because with EM, the terms UK, Iraq, Nutters fly around like cookies but … SM … there is dead silence!

So the situation is that EM NEVER said they will investigate SM … but suddenly comes the report that 99,9% it wasn’t about SM!?

I have the feeling they even did not bother to check computers of SM etc, nope, they simply did NOTHING … Now, compare that with the AH’s … their whole house, caravan, private life is turned upside down.

And the cryptic ‘It will take 10 years’ of EM … why does he say this? Does every killing take exactly 10 years? EM could strike lucky and catch the killer because he made a dumb mistake … but no, EM starts off with saying ‘It could take 10 years’ … Jeeezzz, not Mr self-confident:)

I would like OUI to comment again on the Schutz. He did some reseacrh about the family

4-22-2013 at 00:46:40


I agree with part of your analysis.
Yes, if you have to pick some people out as strange at that place and time, it is the al-Hilli family.
We of course know nothing (or almost nothing) about Mr. X, but his actions make it probable that he also was a “local” man. Then the al-Hillis are the ones that probably did not even know that Le Martinet existed. For the others we know the reasons why they were there (or at least the reason they gave for being there). Mr. X must also have known that Le Martinet existed since he choose to execute the killings at that strange place and time.

You can interpret this in two ways:
1. You think it so strange that the al-Hillis were there that you suspect some kind of faul play on their part.
2. You think that all the other persons knew Le Martinet and had planned for one reason or another to be there at exactly that time. So the al-Hillis movements were the only ones that were difficult or impossible to predict and they could therefore be “excluded”.

Mr X. : No he wasn’t teleported, he probably went on this motorbike.
Put yourself in his shoes (and we exclude the nutter alternative). You have for some reason decided to kill someone at Le Martinet.
First of all, you must of course know that Le Martinet existed, it is hardly a place you end up on by accident, like some motorway parking place.
You are then also probably familiar with the local geography/lay-out. You know that the Route Forestiere could at any time be blocked by cows, tourists or forestry men, but for some reason you still choose Le Martinet.

Now you are standing there at Le Martinet with the gun in your hand. You see your selected target coming down the road. Okay, you will shoot. But then what?? If you are not a nutter you must have at least a rudimentary plan what to do next. Just let the victim(s) lay there on the road for the next passer-by to see? And where are you yourself heading so that you will not bump into the same passer-by? Or how will you explain the situation to him/her?

I have said it several times before, and I will keep on saying it: Le Martinet at four o’clock in the afternoon is one of the strangest place you can choose for a murder. If the murder was not totally crazy he had planned to escape somehow and get at least a good head start before the murder was discovered. Perhaps those bullets (and I am not sure there were only 25) were a part of his plan, and then not for shooting himself out if necessary.

Now he by sheer luck and (probably) clumsiness from one of the witnesses got away anyhow, but that was not due to some clever plan.

Mr. Maillaud: His conclusions I will not try to explain. After having studied a number of murders in the Haute Savoie area I know that he has a number of favourite expressions that he always (?) uses:
1. about the victim: a man without history
2. about the investigation: all “pistes” are open
3. about the number of murders solved: it is no big deal that so few murders are solved

“lure a no-goarea”: No, I don’t think so, but not very probable. I have really thought about it, but I can’t remember a case when a murderer has killed some “extra” victims to fool the police (perhaps someone can). It is quite common that a murderer sets fire on a house to try and conceal a murder in the house, but the forensic experts are normally so clever that they will still find out that the victims were killed before the fire started. I have also heard of cases when the murderer tried to stage an accident, e.g. a traffic accident, to try and hide a murder, but that is also pretty meaningless and easy to debunk. These cases show more the desperation of the killer than any clever planning.

4-22-2013 at 03:51:57

Hello everyone 🙂

It’s been beautiful and sunny here in BC & so I was away!
@ Oui.. Dar alhidiyah I think is the publisher and if what they found is the Quran published by ” Dar alhidiyah” then it would be the same for sunni & Shaai as there is only one version for both.
@ Max … I have to say that I agree with you that EM himself NEVER even mentioned the possibility of SM being the target. NEVER!
This I find fishy, weird & very unprofessional.
Marilyn tomorrow is indeed another day! but are we ever going to get the answers we are looking for?

4-22-2013 at 08:02:36

Morning everyone!

I’ve not read in yet,but can see that you’ve been busy at your PCs while I was serial killing.Till later.

4-22-2013 at 09:26:10

More on Mr. X’s preparations:

So Mr. X decides to shoot someone at Le Martinet.

To get away from Le Martinet he can choose three different roads.
The choice is like playing russian roulett.

Each road means that you have to travel over more than 3 km on a narrow, bumpy road where you can’t hide from anyone. Route Forestiere is of course the “fastest” but also the one with the highest probability to meet someone. When I play with my little “Chevaline-tool” I can see that the MC must have avoided “Didierjean&friends” by seconds or a minute, and then only because the MC chose Route du Moulin, and PD chose Route de Chevaline.

But that is not all, when Mr. X had reached “civilization” again he could very well be seen, if he was local even recognized, if he was a stranger noticed as such. So how did Mr. X intended to explain his presence in the area, if he was seen on the forest roads, or in the neighbouring villages?
I mean, you can’t say that you were hiking if you are wearing a suit, or riding a motorbike without any sort of equipment. If you are a chinese, nigerian, arab, or eskimoo not living in the area, the explaining will be even harder.

But I believe that Mr. X, being a rational man, when his decision fell on Le Martinet at 15:30, also had prepared an explanation why he was in the area.

Both Brett-Martin and “Didierjean” has provided an explanation to the media why they were there (“Didierjean” also has the best alibi in the world, since Brett-Martin verifies that he met PD when he left the murder scene to fetch help). I am not impressed with either of these explanations. I hope that they have given better and more detailed explanations to the police, and that the police has used some “experts” on e.g. hiking in the area, to check them up. Sometimes I get the impression that the police ask e.g. PD what he was doing there, and PD says “I was going hiking overnight with my two girlfriends 🙂 “, and the police just nods and say d’accord, I understand.

4-22-2013 at 10:47:42

@ Max, Lars

I’m sure that Eric Clouseau never considered the possibility that SM might have been the intended / primary victim. Not because he is protecting somebody, but because the AHs came with a label attached to them: terrorist associates, probably up to no good.

I am not playing a game of “let’s blame the victims” here, but that is the only meaningful explanation. Think back to that neighbour describing how SAH was kept under police surveillance. If true, that *conclusively proves* that SAH was already tagged as a terrorist associate years ago. Steps like that are not taken merely because somebody has the wrong ethnic origin, it takes a lot more than that.

A friend of mine is a lawyer representing a man alleged to have been to a terrorist training camp. Thus, I have a fairly clear idea of what having that “terrorist associate” label attached to one’s name does. That label is in all the databases, not just secret intelligence-type databases. Even when that guy purchases a train ticket, the ticket vendor has an alert flashing on his screen. When police stop him for speeding, they have their guns drawn before they even emerge from their own car. He was once detained at customs for wearing a high-tech digital watch. I could go on and on.

Now, if that guy were ever to be found shot dead inside his car, the emergency services and police would behave in the same – otherwise inexplicable – manner: “freeze” the scene rather than check for signs of life, call in the bomb squad right away, and automatically assume that whatever happened to him must have had something to do with his nefarious activities. Against that background, statements such as that the case may never be solved or will take ten years to solve make sense.

4-22-2013 at 11:11:47

There is, to say the least, a logical problem with that theory.

Mr. Maillaud said on the same evening, standing at the Chevaline sign, can be seen on several interviews, that they had no idea who was in the car when the police came to the scene. Mr Maillaud repeats this uncertainty of the persons involved at the first press conference.

So either you are saying that Mr. Maillaud is lying, and even I have not gone that far, or that “label” on the victims foreheads must have been very difficult to read.

4-22-2013 at 11:25:33

@ Lars

There is no logical problem. The BMW’s number plates will have told them fairly quickly who the car was registered to and, I contend, flagged that owner as suspicious.

However, knowing who the car is registered to is not the same thing as knowing who is actually behind the wheel, and who the other victims inside the car are. In order to conclusively verify the identity of those persons, they would need the next-of-kin to identify them visually, or to conduct DNA tests.

4-22-2013 at 11:27:13

So you are saying that Maillaud is lying then?

4-22-2013 at 11:28:14

@Lars and all,

If you place BM as the ‘lure’ man, then everything fits like rock.

Just saying. Just fitting pieces. Nothing more.

(and perhaps some of you will be happy as you were always doubtfull about BM anyway;)

4-22-2013 at 11:32:14

Just a pawn in their game!

I believe, just like FB, that there is a lot of incompetence involved in this case/investigation.

I also believe that there is something very rotten hidden somewhere. I can feel the musty smell. It stinks!

What makes me so furious is that the two small girls, and a lot of other innocent people are just used as pawns in this dirty game.

4-22-2013 at 11:40:11


Re ‘I also believe that there is something very rotten hidden somewhere. I can feel the musty smell. It stinks!’

Yup, I agree, I do know what this is all about. But it must be quite serious to commit a quadruple murder over it.

If I have to point to a ‘weak’ spot at the SM=target, AH=mask then it must be the ‘motive’

Why was SM so important to kill and mask for?

But, ok, some fact more lighthearted, a little detail:

– How do you explain CS arriving in Chevaline/policeblock (searching for SM) while the story is that SM ‘was lost’??

4-22-2013 at 12:34:26

It was Vinneman that suggested SM as target.

As far as we are told no-one entered the car until some 8 hours later, when they found Zeena in the rear footwell.

Remember they started looking for the child, when at the campsite someone said there was a second child with them – how did the Police know they were staying at that particular campsite ?

Was there some kind of entry pass on the windscreen of the car ?

@Max, I wonder if his ‘planned’ route was to go to the hairpin bend from Route du Moulin into the Route Forestier back towards Chevaline, that would account for why CS got to the road block, although it is reported that all entries to Les Bauges were blocked quickly.

I agree with Peter, that conclusions were drawn quickly and without substance by EM to the press, because they were Iraqis, as I said a long while back, the registration plate would have pinpointed the owner of the vehicle and address etc. etc. etc.

Even locals were reported as saying at least they were foreigners, Gallic shrug.

And I certainly agree with Lars, that if this was not a nutter then there was a great deal of planning gone into the ambush and escape.

I don’t know if you have noticed but the motorbike they are looking for is the one seen by Janin on the Col, no mention of the one apparently seen by BM or described as being one and the same.

4-22-2013 at 13:43:00

was wondering if you could translate some iraq doccuments for me ……

4-22-2013 at 13:48:52


🙂 go

4-22-2013 at 13:50:31


4-22-2013 at 14:28:11


At 9-17-2012 at 07:12:57 I state the no ‘nice guys’ (no blurred vision, but going by facts alone)
At 9-17-2012 at 09:29:43 I come essentially to the same conclusion AH-SM = meeting

The ONLY tweak is that it was a ‘passive’ meeting. It was a meeting of AH-SM but both parties didn’t know they were attending it;) Only X knew that. SM was his target, AH was his mask.

The ‘timeline’ and AH-Zainab out of the car ‘ditates’ that SM=primary target. The ballistics report confirmed this.

4-22-2013 at 14:59:09

British terror threat in The Netherlands, all secondary schools are closed today in the city of Leiden and surrounding area. The pricipals didn’t have sufficient AR-15’s in stock to cover all schools, there appeared to be a rush on these guns in the “safest” nation on earth. 😉

4-22-2013 at 15:05:29

re: not knowing who were in the car and not having opened the car.

Having had a bomb scare at my apartment a few years ago (not this apartment but the previous one and without going into details and reasons) I can say that where there is suspicion of a bomb the police won’t touch the object (car whatever) until the bomb squad people have come and cleared the area and made sure that there was no bomb. At the time of my scare the French police were using an Israeli manufactured detection vehicle which looked rather like a beach buggy.

We’ve dealt here on the blog with how the police had identified the Al-Hillis, or rather found out that the BMW was registered in the name of Saad Al-Hilli. They found in the car boot the booking-in slip Saad had signed at the two camping sites and checking with the sites they were told that there were a man, two women and two small girls in the party. As there was just one girl at the crime scene, they thought that it was a kidnapping which had gone wrong – that the missing girl had been kidnapped.

What is interesting here is that Maillaud said that they had not opened the car doors because they were waiting for the bomb squad to come from Paris with special equipment: they feared that the car was booby trapped. This leads to the question: so why did they open the boot of the car? Or was the boot already open? I do not have time to search back through our comments, but perhaps one of you can remember.

When the gendarmes knew that a party of one man, two women and two children were at a campsite, they still had no certitude that the shot man and the two shot women were indeed the Al-Hillis. They needed Zainab to identify them and even then they still had to confirm the fact with a DNA profile for all.

I also believe that the police are keeping info to themselves. This is not because of a wish to lie or deceive, but in order not to alert the killer or killers that they are on to him or her.

We will one day hear in an AFP report that someone is being held in custody with regard to the tuerie a Chevaline. Then there will yet again be silence until another report from AFP that the a man/woman or some men and women will be charged with the murder of the Al-Hillis and Sylvain Mollier. A day later or two days later we will be given their names but we will not see them. When they are transferred from one car to another or from a car into a building, they will have a blanket over their head. And then there may again be a long silence, a very long silence like two or three years, before AFP will report the date of the opening of the trial.

This is how it goes in France.

Prosecutor Maillaud will probably be promoted and rewarded with the position of Judge in Paris’s Palais de Justice.

4-22-2013 at 15:49:49

@ Marilyn

What is interesting here is that Maillaud said that they had not opened the car doors because they were waiting for the bomb squad to come from Paris with special equipment: they feared that the car was booby trapped.

Did he actually ever say that? I thought that was an inspired guess on my part, and that the “official” reason they gave for not opening the car’s doors was that they wanted to “freeze” the crime scene for their forensics team (which is a rubbish excuse, for the reasons that I mentioned earlier).

4-22-2013 at 16:44:42

I find the behaviour of CS ‘weird’. To look for your husband, searching with the car and arrving in/near Chevaline.

I would like to know about the time CS showed up in Chevaline.
Lynda and Oui estmate it was dusk (On Sept. 5, 2012 sunset Annecy at 20:00 hours)

That means CS got in the car 19.30 but … how fast would she drive??? I mean she was looking for her husband. I dont think she would race towards Martinet/Cheavline or did she?

If she would go straigth to Chevaline I count 30 minutes

So … is the LATEST.

A better ‘normal’ guess would be 19.00 (leaving home in Ugine)

Now SM was killed 15.30 and at least 1 hour away from home, so he would not have arrived before 16.30.

That would make CS ‘waiting’ for 2.30 hours (max)

But why would she jump in the car??? Couldn’t SM not simply having met somebody and having a drink (he IS french after all)

Is it ‘normal’ to start panicking 2.30 hours?

I don’t think it is normal.

But perhaps in CS’s case, in which she DID know the route, and perhaps with ‘something in the air’ she WAS worried enough to take the car.

The idea alone to ‘look for your husband’ while he is biking. This surely is trying to find a needle in a haystack … UNLESS … yes UNLESS you did know what route he was taking (and perhaps feared for ‘a worse thing’ which happened)

— Max

4-22-2013 at 17:38:07

@Max Re: the worse thing

That´s exactly what I was also thinking of and what I did say before, when I was elaborating on my “drug dealer” scenario. The reason why CS went presumably straight up to Martinet can only be:
a) it wasn’t a new route but the regular meeting point for some kind of “business”, so she knew exactly where to look, at least where to start a search;
b) it was a new route and – as you said, Max – “there was something in the air” and call me a fool but some people (mostly women) have some kind of sixth sense when it comes to feel danger for beloved one´s. Thats why she went straight up there.

I want to add that I have previously proposed the idea that X could be not directly connected to the Schutz family (hence giving them the option of a perfect alibi) but someone who, lets say, “owes e.g. Mr. Schutz, a favor, sealed with the secrecy of les chasseurs alpins.

– RR

4-22-2013 at 22:38:36


re: car doors

Peter, I am sure that I read it in one of Maillaud’s interviews with a French newspaper. Can’t remember which paper it was though. I know that we had discussed it here on the blog and there was astonishment that there was not a bomb squad there locally but had to be brought from Paris. He also said that they had used heat detecting equipment (an overflying helicopter maybe, I can’t remember) but it had not detected the presence of the little girl alive under her mother’s ‘jupe’.

@RiffRaff and @Max

Why do you say that CS went up to the murder scene looking for Sylvain Mollier?

Surely, she had gone to the gendarmerie’s station house to declare him ‘missing’.

We commented about how extraordinary it was for a woman to rush to the police to say that her husband/partner had not come back home when he’d not been gone that long. Remember? The women on the blog agreed that a woman would surely wait until the next morning, and even longer, to do so.

There had even been reports that CS had taken a photo of Sylvain Mollier along, but this was later said not to be true.

4-22-2013 at 23:01:14


The mysterious Mr Mollier

So what is the truth about cyclist Sylvain Mollier? He lived with his girlfriend Clare Schutz in Ugine (pop; 7,000), about 12 miles from Lake Annecy, and was on extended paternity leave after Miss Schutz, 29, a pharmacist, gave birth to their son, Louis, in June. Mr Mollier left his home for the last time around 2.30pm on September 5.

Much later that afternoon, when he did not return from his bike ride, Miss Schutz became worried. Eventually, she decided to get in her car to go and look for him.

Mr Mollier, 45, had told her where he was going, so she knew where to start her search. But her way was barred by a police road block near the bottom of the Route de la Combe d’Ire, leading up the mountainside, a route popular with hikers and cyclists.

Miss Schutz told the police she was very concerned about Mr Mollier; that he had not come home when she had expected and had not rung her.
Miss Schutz was asked to get a photograph of Mr Mollier and bring it to the police station. When she produced a photograph, her worst


4-22-2013 at 23:39:03

I would like to read the full article behind this Sunday Times (paid) item (dec 16th, 2012)

I tried google but can not find a copy. If some of you wizards can get it (the text about 2/3 of a page) I would be grateful;)

4-22-2013 at 23:42:21

But perhaps did it (copy/paste) already for us

THE Frenchman murdered alongside three members of a British-Iraqi family in the Alps had been involved in a ‘bitter dispute’ over a million pound inheritance, it emerged today.

Sylvain Mollier, 45, was the lone cyclist whose dead body was found lying next to a BMW saloon close to Lake Annecy, in eastern France, on September 5th.

He was shot seven times, while Said Al-Hilli, a 50-year-old engineer from Claygate, Surrey, was killed inside the car with his wife Ikbal, 47, and her mother, Suhaila, 74.

Now it has emerged that Mr Mollier was involved in family arguments caused by having a baby with a wealthy heiress sixteen years his junior.
Claire Schutz, the 29-year-old who shared a home with Mr Mollier, gave birth to Louis, their first child together, in June.

Just a few months before she gave birth, Claire was given a hugely lucrative business by her parents, making her a millionaire.

Court documents from October 2011 confirm the handover of the Schutz-Morange Pharmacy, in Grignon, near Annecy, which is valued at a minimum £1.1million.

The couple had been living together for around a year by this time and Claire would have been pregnant with Louis, yet she describes herself as a ’a spinster not signed up to a civil partnership’.

Despite this, Mr Mollier started to receive large amounts of cash from Claire – a development which did not go down well with her side of the family.

Just before his death, Mr Mollier had also won the legal right to take three years off from the factory where he worked, so as to look after Louis, and his two teenage sons from his first marriage.

Mollier was riding a new £4,000 racing bike on the day he was murdered.
Speaking about the handover of the pharmacy, Mollier’s brother Christophe Mollier told the Sunday Times: “Sylvain had been through a difficult divorce and had a lot of financial commitments so naturally was very happy with the development. However, there were serious frictions between the Molliers and Claire Schutz’s family.” .

Eric Maillaud, the prosecutor leading the investigation, confirmed he was aware of the tensions between the families, but added ’they were not something I particularly wanted to make public. The family is entitled to their private life.’

4-23-2013 at 00:03:05

was wondering if you could translate some iraq doccuments for me ……
@FB … I can have a look at them & tell you:)

4-23-2013 at 00:10:48

Prieuré de Sion was founded in in the town of Annemasse, Haute-Savoie in eastern France in 1956 …

Sorry, I don’t do the Freemasonry or other secret societies. I googled a bit for the combination with no results. The only masons in the Savoie worked near the village of Chevaline that dreadful day. 🙂

4-23-2013 at 00:14:11

More interesting bits here

‘Sylvain Mollier’s brother, Christophe, apparently speaking to the media for the first time, told the paper that his family had been interviewed for less than an hour by the police. “We expected far longer interviews in an inquiry of this gravity.”‘

I know you call me crazy lol, but this is exactly how the ‘mask’ works! It either ‘covers’ or hands an ‘excuse’ to NOT look in the direction of SM. It is funny that esp. the UK press brings up the point of SM but EM stubbornly avoids him like the plague (even CM is surprised!) Btw, also the UK press has no clue what AH was doing there.

I tell you, there isn’t a single fact/details which does not fit in SM=target, AH=mask … everything fits!

But true, if you don’t dig into this you will never uncover the last remaining ‘missing links’

– How was AH ‘recruited’?
– How was the sync arranged (this has to be the 15.30@Martinet)
– Was X alone, or did he had help from a ‘syncer/lurer’?

— Max

4-23-2013 at 01:06:23

@marylin /zainab
want to send some .pdf to zainab
whats best way
can you give her my address please:)

4-23-2013 at 07:46:03

@ Lynda 4-22-2013 at 12:34:26 @ Marilyn
My recollections is there are these versions of how SAHs were named and the younger girl found alive:
1. They ran the number plate with UK police. That led to a name and passport number they matched to the campsite.
2. Passports were found in the footspace or doorpocket of driver’s side (which means car was opened – contradicting other stories).
3. Passports were discovered in rear, which was already open, either by SAH when he parked or popped open when car hit embankment, or they opened it, again contradicting themselves.
4. This is the first I’ve heard of discovery of a camping permit.

Throw dart and pick from above. In any case it was locating the campsite and someone there mentioning the second child, that led them to believe it might be a kidnapping and the helicopter search with thermal imaging.

Have you seen the amazing thermal images from the capture of the alleged bomber on the boat in Boston? In that case it was a live body under a canvas cover. With Chevaline it was a small live body masked by one or two dead, but still warm bodies, and under a metal roof.

4-23-2013 at 09:00:13

From perspective X:

What happens with his ‘masked’ killing?

Well, if the ‘mask’ really works, the investigators will look for the murderer in the wrong direction. As it is per def IMPOSSIBLE to find this murderer (unless X ‘frames’ another person, which imho is/was not his plan) the investigators will in the end simply ‘give up’ … AND conclude it must have been a ‘nutter’ who the can not find.

And this is exactly what is going to happen!

(attention … the following contains what in ‘reviews’ is called a ‘spoiler’)

SM, who was NOT on the list made it as the first one to get OFF the list.

So there are other option ON the list. And one by one they will FAIL to end up with the last option, the ‘trash can’ option … the … tada … Mr Nutter:)


One is stalling the case, looking in ‘all corners of the world’ for evidence which simply is not there. And stalling works best when you can blame ‘other parties’ for not cooperating. The idea that multiple countries ‘involved’ have a ‘meeting’ in The Hague about the case is such a perfect stalling technique. And of course one will uncover a lot from AH. But does one seriously think they were meeting over the problem ‘How did X get AH to come to Martinet?’ … lol … No, because that is actually working. And one does not work, one ‘stalls’:)

— Max

4-23-2013 at 09:20:15

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 4-21-2013 at 19:23:39
“@NR Also perhaps more to the Boston case than meets the eye.”

Indeed, and many parallels to Chevaline, including public wandering thru alleged, prematurely released crime scene.

Dirty dishes! Smelly laundry! The fiends and monsters! Wouldn’t the authorities want to extract the last fingerprint and DNA sample that could lead to fellow terrorists. No finger search or bomb squad here, no holes drilled in walls, nor in other residences they occupied. In spite of one squalid apartment they owned Mercedes and Porsches.

Also massive misreporting, mis-ID of innocent people, disinfo. Saudi who’s not-a-suspect but not-free-to-leave either. Alleged intervention by Saudi ambassador at WH, later denied. Mysterious van with consular plates appears at one place along with FBI who deny knowledge of what country it represents as does State Department. FBI botched background check. Facial recognition system useless in spite of gov. having passport pics and mug shot from 2009. It goes on and on and on.

Israelis think US crazy. They’ve never locked down a city over bombers, and why not lock down when two bombers are loose, but wait until one is killed, then total panic. Meanwhile US is still celebrating the “victory” over terror and capture of remaining fiend.

May not be a conspiracy, but it gives believers enough oddities to work on for years to come.

4-23-2013 at 09:33:59

Last week I solved a problem. A 3rd party system (hosted outside) we use, sometimes gave an error. Users complained. I noticed/had the error too. After days I started to see a pattern … 30 seconds.

I then knew it probably was a ‘time-out’.

A time-out is a ‘setting’ in a ‘configuration’. Both I can not control it (3rd party, hosted elsewhere)

You see, while I had a good feeling it HAD TO BE a ‘time-out’ I still had to convince all persons involved to look at that specific direction. Even funnier, it were 2 time-outs. Those guys said ‘well, we solved it, it is 60 seconds now’ … but I still got the same errors. And my users had no clue.

Typically the guys also said ‘We dont have the problem’ Where upon I replied ‘But, did your query take longer than 30 seocnds?’ … silence on the other side ‘Uhhhh, no, just some query’

In the end, you know, it were 2 time-outs. I was right (no surprise for me, but this problem was finally off my list, and users were happy again) … but it took a lot of time to make ppl ‘solve’ it.

This is NOT to say I’m always right. Nope, I start at zero too;) But I’m quite good in ‘black-box’ thinking, it is my job. I solve problems which others simply do not solve because they do not ‘see the pattern’;)

4-23-2013 at 09:57:20


If you still want that article (16.12) send me an email (you have my address in your blog) and I send it to you. ./. Lars

4-23-2013 at 10:03:19


I like that you unearthed Prieuré de Sion from Annemasse.

Perhaps some of these Savoyardes also are members in the Knights Templar and the new Crusaders?

4-23-2013 at 11:49:21

@ Marilyn, all

I cannot find any reference to the bomb squad having been called to the Martinet. All the reports say that police wanted to “freeze” the scene whilst waiting for the forensics team. For example:
(…) But police “assumed” everyone inside the car was dead – and simply placed a guard around it as they waited for a forensic team to arrive. (…) The shocking delay in rescuing the youngster prompted outrage on both side of the Channel. But tonight Lt Col Benois Vinnemann, who is in charge of the inquiry, defended his officers. He said: “Our role was to preserve the crime scene. To search the car thoroughly would have to lead to the loss of fundamental ballistic evidence.”
Incroyable découverte à Chevaline, plus de 8 heures après le massacre d’hier après-midi, alors que la scène de crime avait été gelée pour ne pas risquer de perdre des indices, en attendant l’arrivée des experts de la gendarmerie de l’IRCGN, une fillette de quatre ans a été découverte en vie, dans la voiture, au milieu des trois cadavres d’adultes tués par balles.
(…) A l’arrivée des spécialistes, venus de Rosny-sous-Bois, la voiture immatriculée en Grande-Bretagne a enfin été ouverte. Stupeur.

4-23-2013 at 13:03:22
4-23-2013 at 13:08:01


But, Israel is also celebrating the US victory in Boston …

Boston bombing will boost U.S. support for Israel, says Netanyahu aide

4-23-2013 at 14:29:38

I knew a Knight Templar in Claygate
did not know he was such until his funeral 🙁

4-23-2013 at 14:39:22

So, we can conclude that we don’t know how the police identified the camping site.

Maybe they called all hotels, campsites, hostels in the area with the name of the driver (father) to see if they had someone registered in the name of Al-Hilli, they had his details from the registration plates, this will account for lost time before Solitaire says, ‘he’s registered here’, cops go there and a fellow camper tells them that there were two girls.

Helicopter goes in search, police believing the missing child is somewhere in the woods.

No reports have ever said how they crossed the channel and when, many booking engines ask for car registration numbers, certainly at the Tunnel this is now by plate recognition. I suspect they went by ferry as this is much cheaper, especially when towing a caravan.

@FB, have you ever been camping with the Al-Hillis ? I too have something I want our Zainab to have a look at I’ve asked Marilyn to pass it on – id you get it Zainab, does it relate to our personalities at all ?

As an aside I would like to remind people that under British Law the children have their own passports, which would be issued from their country of birth -Britain.

4-23-2013 at 14:48:35


You seem to be familiar with the region: Les Savoyards avec Le PenHistoric House of Savoy [Map]

“Vittorio Emanuele’s son Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy works in Geneva as a hedge fund manager.”

4-23-2013 at 15:18:34


I read your blog on Booman about the 2011 murder of the three guys,one of them a friend of Tamerlane Tsarnaev.Very interesting. I recommend that you all read it.


I just do not remember where I had read about the bomb squad.


Did you receive my email in which I asked you to send me the link to what has to be translated again.

4-23-2013 at 15:27:05

we never camped with Saad and co as Mrs Bastard does not like to camp
tho i went with Saad to Waterlooville to pick up “spotty”

@zainab …would still like help with some Iraqi scrawl translation 🙂

4-23-2013 at 16:25:22


Even though I dislike Front National, and all other European parties of the same type, very much, I think we have to accept them, since so many vote for them in general elections, and as long as they keep themselves within the democratic rules of our societies.

So I think there is a huge difference between Front National and the other extreme right wing organizations mentioned above (sometimes they are so extreme that it is even hard to place them on a political left-right scale)

4-23-2013 at 17:48:26


An earlier question that wasn’t answered yet, whether the Savoyards have a dislike for etnic people or foreign visitors in the region. You need to have family in Savoie or Haute-Savoie to give an acccurate answer. I would expect a nationalistic culture with a proud people would keep strangers out. To be aggressive and do them harm without any provocation seems to be out of the question unless you have idiots like Breivik. I did find a site swissdefenceleague that scared me and I didn’t want to publish a direct link. It uses the same emblems of the Norwegian and the Knights Templar, which can be traced back to the Savoy dynasty.

4-23-2013 at 19:20:04

@ Oui 4-23-2013 at 13:03:22
“@NR Nice! See this story – Interview Sibel Edmonds on Boston Bombing and FBI Inconsistencies.”
@Oui 4-23-2013 at 13:08:01
“@NR But, Israel is also celebrating the US victory in Boston …Boston bombing will boost U.S. support for Israel, says Netanyahu aide”

That was quick. In only one week the narrative is frozen. Left & Right all agree. Two lone wolves (a small oxymoron) one dead, one undead and undrugged long enough to confess to lone wolfism. They learned their trade and tradecraft from bomb-making-for-dummies on the Internets. No 12 person sleeper cell. Happy days are here again. We won, we won!

Everyone’s a winner, Putin, Netanyahu, the King of Arabia. Monstrous and fiendish tin-foil-hat loons, those who dare question the fairy tale and cause discomfort to victims and their families are the losers. Nightmare over. Go back to sleep.

Officially, Israelis would not suggest to his face that the uncle who brings gifts on every visit is totally daft. But that is what some Israelis say behind his back.

Good piece on propaganda:

4-23-2013 at 19:27:42

@Fat Bastard 4-23-2013 at 14:29:38
“@lars: I knew a Knight Templar in Claygate did not know he was such until his funeral:

http : //
Craft International are mercenary Knights Templars.
Quote from Chris Kyle’s company website: “The crosshair symbolizes his time spent on a sniper rifle and is also in the form of a templar cross to symbolize his faith.”

They were contractors prominent in finish-line bombing photos from Boston. Distinctive ball caps.

4-23-2013 at 19:51:05

@Oui and others

I don’t think that these kind of organizations had anything to do directly with the Chevaline killings, but they could perhaps have influenced some of the stranger aspects of the investigation that followed.

When you study the other unsolved murders in the Haute Savoie area, they are very different from Chevaline. They are more “typical” murder cases, not so many strange circumstances as in Chevaline. But there seems to be an element of “settling the accounts” with the victims in them, they are like assassinations. Since the victims were, in most cases, elderly men with no criminal background, it could be some kind of “moralistic” punishment. They had offended something. The young man that was killed was gay, so there could be an element of homophobia.

Eric Maillaud sees of course no link between these murders, but I hope and believe, for Haute Savoie, that they are somehow connected. Otherwise they have a big problem with many murderers going round shooting people in this rather small area around the Geneva Lake.

Seen in this context, these kind of organizations are interesting. They could give a killer a sort of moral alibi, why he has the right to go around assassinating people (like Breivik got from his Internet contacts).

I hope that one day someone will write a book about this whole affair.

4-23-2013 at 20:49:35


Pls. don’t do this to me, I’m still stuck with the Kennedy assassinations, MLK, etc.

Easy access to a website with quite a few scenes before and after blast near finish line. Someone needs to answer many questions …

Subject: FBI handlers, CRAFT International
What is Craft International Private Military Forces doing at the Boston Marathon with a squadron of men and an unmarked black SUV that’s fully equipped.

YouTube video Suspects & Black Backpacks ! Boston Marathon Bombing Event!

4-23-2013 at 23:11:49

@ Oui 4-23-2013 at 20:49:35
“@NR Pls. don’t do this to me, I’m still stuck with the Kennedy assassinations, MLK, etc.”

“Al-Ajaji, who is a master’s student in cosmetic dentistry…”

Templars and dentists everywhere. The link is far-right and I’d assume the first lady visited other patients as well as Saudis, through the Arabic translation indicates the Saudi press take pride in her attention to their citizens.

4-24-2013 at 00:03:52

This is not a “wall of silence”, it’s a wall of shame!

Chevaline and Boston are a shame !

4-24-2013 at 00:18:12

I’ll be away for a short while. I’ll catch on later. Perhaps the case is solved by then. Who knows;)

4-24-2013 at 00:25:50

Of topic, totaly of topic. But I can’t resist

sorry, sorry, sorry.

Please do not hold this sad commentary. thx

4-24-2013 at 00:42:01


“I’ll be away for a short while”

Wow, 10 years is a short while ?

See you soon ,,,

4-24-2013 at 07:47:21


@Max – Thanks for letting us know.Enjoy your away time.

4-24-2013 at 12:03:36

Another Boston/Chevaline parallel: Dead bomber’s widow last saw him Thurs. morn, when she left for work and he stayed home to watch baby. New baby, unemployed, stay-at-home papa (plus bro-in-law) with expensive tastes, a seemingly pleased father-in-law upon learning of death.
Who watched baby while papa was out busily bombing on Monday?

4-24-2013 at 21:22:40

I am sure we’d all like to comment on the Boston Affair, there is nothing to compare with the events at Chevaline, this was not terrorist activity in the name of Jihad, I’m pretty sure of that.

Two very stupid kids who bit off the hand that fed them, the parents had returned to Dagestan, they could have to if they’d found it impossible to integrate into American society – nobody would have worried about their departure.

I’ve watched Joe Biden speaking at the memorial/funeral of the Police Officer who was killed – can someone please tell me why all this fuss, when, regrettably, officers are killed all over the place by Americans every week ? If you want to watch racism alive and well it is there for all to see.

David Cameron and Francois Hollande (especially the latter) said they would get to the bottom of the Chevaline killings etc. no government official went to their funeral or that of Sylvain Mollier.

Does someone in the higher echelons of society believe they deserved it ? To be murdered ?

Because this is what Chevaline is, a mass murder.

4-24-2013 at 22:09:03


I guess you read what P-pudding wrote about Hollande?

4-24-2013 at 23:10:13

@Lars, yes but didn’t need to I saw the press conference at the time, since then not a peep from either.

4-25-2013 at 04:12:37

@ Lynda 4-24-2013 at 21:22:40
“…can someone please tell me why all this fuss, when, regrettably, officers are killed all over the place by Americans every week ? If you want to watch racism alive and well it is there for all to see.”

“On April 15, the day the Tsarnaevs set off the pressure-cooker bombs on Boylston Street, there were 40 bombings and shootings across Iraq that took the lives of 75 and wounded 350. No one in the outside world knows the names of those who set off these bombs, and no one cares. And Baghdad was not locked down.”

“How, then, when these brothers are now as well-known as Timothy McVeigh, if not Osama bin Laden, and they committed an atrocity that mesmerized America for a week, and they forced a lockdown of one of our greatest cities, can it be said that they failed – as terrorists? Worse may be yet to come.”

The above is not about moral equivalence, just practicality. What is the ongoing celebration about? Nothing was won.

Before the bros were named there was reverse-racism from the left as some commentators prayed the bombers would be found to be white — presumably white, Christian, anti-government crazies. Nobody expected them to be real Caucasians from the Caucasuses no less, though Muslims.
Luckily, the older bro had links to 9/11 Truther pages, so all is not lost. Both sides can cheer.

There’s an old newsroom joke, aside from “If it Bleeds it Leads” that went “1000 Dead Bangladeshis = 100 Dead Europeans = 10 Dead Americans”.

What we deplore in the individual, and term mental disorders — extreme narcissism, lack of empathy all linked to a psycho diagnosis — we celebrate in the Western collective, most extremely in the US but also the UK and to a lesser extent elsewhere. “It’s all about us. We’re not bad, bad people. Why don’t they love us? How dare they!”

4-25-2013 at 08:42:01


The murder of Saad Al-Hilli, his wife, her mother and that of Sylvain Mollier has been classified as a criminal case. Note: not a case of terrorism.

For this reason the presence of President Hollande or of PM Cameron was not required at their funerals. Neither the presence of any cabinet minister or government official.

Speaking only for France because this is where I live, if President Hollande should attend the funeral of everyone murdered in this country, he would be at a funeral almost every day of his life, because here in France there is a murder almost every day of the year.

Sad as the Al-Hilli case is, sad too are all the other murders, and no one has started a blog like this for them. Unfortunately, I can’t start blogs for them, because I will then be doing nothing but that, and God knows I am up to the top of my head in death, destruction and murder already.

4-25-2013 at 09:17:40


I was actually very surprised that Hollande & Cameron made a public statement together about Chevaline.

Politicians, as you say, usually avoid to get “involved” in this kind of cases, since it is very hard to predict how they will turn out in the end. And politicians seldom want to get the wrong kind of publicity.

4-25-2013 at 10:51:06

@ Lynda 4-24-2013 at 21:22:40
Re Boston: The current spin score has rightists ahead by 5, but it’s early in the game and Russians claim Tamerlan attended CIA affiliated seminar in Russia. Can’t get a good translation.

Final outcome to be determined by whatever the inevitable Congressional Commission concocts.

“Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone: a comedy tonight!”

4-25-2013 at 12:54:57

@Marilyn Z.

I love the French! 🙂

“… has been classified as a criminal case. Note: not a case of terrorism.

It’s the classification now, close the books. A shut case 99.9% sure, next press conference September 6, 2022 in Chambéry. Spokesperson for the prosecution will be Eric Maillaud Jr.

Marilyn, will you open a new thread on that date? Thanx

4-25-2013 at 13:31:29

I still have to go away (for a couple of days) but I’ll let some weird pieces which have caught my interest. (much, much better than the totally unrelated normal stuff going on the world like ‘Boston’ … who cares;)

Il les respectait tous les deux, mais il souhaitait rester à l’écart de leurs différends. Ça l’ennuyait, mais il avait une ligne de conduite : ne rien savoir.

For the bright peeps here, no prob.

Fun, I solved a prob at work not so long ago. Read back my posts. It were 2 time-outs. A double layered thing … surely enough just a coincidence;)

4-25-2013 at 13:32:57

@Oui and @Lars and @Lynda and @NR and @All etc who look in here.

The case has been classified as a criminal from the beginning. All cases are unless it was obviously, judging by the degree of damage and injuries, a case of terrorism. Like when it’s obvious that it was a bombing – very many dead, atrocious injuries like lost limbs, and damage to property. Even the Merah terrorism case was at first considered a gangland killing and accordingly a criminal case, then when it was obviously a case of terrorism – the shooting at the Jewish school – the classification was altered. I think it is like this everywhere in the world, no?

Oui, about 2022. In 9 years? Why not? I’ll probably still be here trying to write a bestseller.

4-25-2013 at 15:29:31

Re: Lynda about Masons & the extreme political movements mentioned above

I would in connection with this remind everybody about the organisation Liberté et Progrès ( that we discussed long ago, and that obviously interested the Molliers. That organization is a strange mixture of mainstream political views and some very “unusual” ideas.
Then we also have “Savoie Libre” (, which also seems to be an organization with a mixture of ideas from different parts of the political spectrum, and a number of nationalistic (Savoie) organizations (

4-25-2013 at 17:25:10

For me, the death of SM resulted death of SAH family. My theory is based on the fact that the family could recognize the killers of SM.

It is true that I am not really interested about the mobile of SM’s death. I focused on the effects of the cause.

As we turn round, due to lack of new informations, despite your attempts to find a link with the Savoyard environment (CS & Company), maybe I’ll look at the cause of SM’s death.

Where is the SM’s bicycle ? Has anyone seen a picture of the bicycle?

4-25-2013 at 18:09:38
4-25-2013 at 18:19:41
4-25-2013 at 21:37:09

Who has seen the bicycle and can reply to Bacchus question?

Bacchus, as for the bicycle on the remorque in front of the BNW. It must be that of Sylvain Mollier.

Can anyone confirm this?

4-25-2013 at 22:16:45

I just watched an interesting documentary about a murder case in Stockholm, just after WWII had ended (1945).

A prominent person in the Norwegian resistance movement were shot to death. His death was in the official investigation explained as suicide, but many persons, including his relatives, have never believed that to be true.

As I think is generally known and acknowledged by now, not everything that the resistance movements in Norway, Denmark and France did during WWII was so very heroic. They sometimes killed innocent people by mistake or for personal reasons, and as this documentary showed some members tried to make themselves some money on the smuggling of weapons and goods for the resistance.
You were not especially popular if you tried talk about this directly after the war, people wanted to forget, and be happy that the war was over, and celebrate their heroes.

“The wall of silence” was mentioned several times in this documentary. The relatives and other persons who tried to investigate this (murder) case after the war hit their heads against this wall of silence. “Why poke around in this affair, it was a single man in a war, he is dead, forget him!”

Now however it is probable that he got killed by one of his fellow comrades in the Norwegian resistance movement.

So what does this tell us, I think two things:

1. That time heals all wounds is a huge exaggeration. This man relatives are still after 67 (!) years very preoccupied with what happened to him and why. It will probably take another generation at least until he really is forgotten. I think this is also applicable to Chevaline if that murder case is not solved.

2. The resistance movement in Norway and the people that took over the rule in the country wanted that man to be forgotten. There were other values that were more important to them, amongst them their own reputation. He was just a pawn in their game.
In the Chevaline case many obviously want Sylvain Mollier to be forgotten.
I think that the “Norwegian case” shows how you can raise a wall of silence. You don’t have to order people to keep quite, you can just indicate that it is meaningless to investigate this, or that noone wishes you to look closer at that. When this information ripples down to people lower down in the hiearachy they will loose all interest too. So after a while everybody seems happy with this state of affairs. Do nothing.

There is only a small group of people that will not forget.

4-25-2013 at 22:24:05

Re: about bicycles

I am pretty sure that there is no photo of Mollier’s bicycle available.

I can not remember that anybody has earlier pointed out (in this blog) that the thingy in front of the BMW is the bicycle, but I believe that Bacchus is right, it probably is.

4-25-2013 at 22:29:26


“There is only a small group of people that will not forget.”

… and the family of victims and GOD !

4-25-2013 at 22:40:23


“Can anyone confirm this?”

Only EM or a serious investigator, as Vinneman

4-25-2013 at 22:42:17


If you look at the thingy squeezed in in front of the BMW you can see it has the shape of a bicycle. It’s observant of Bacchus to have recognised it as a bicycle. I wonder how many ungloved hands had touched it …

And about the ‘wall of silence’ yep, it is convenient to forget. You know there is the hope, “if you don’t look, it will go away’. Often do I look away, Lars, desperately hoping that the dripping tap or the broken video recorder will go away. Alas, they do not and I have to face it.


Sadly, Bacchus there are people who do forget because it is too painful to remember.

4-25-2013 at 23:19:44

“Sadly, Bacchus there are people who do forget because it is too painful to remember.”

But, before hiding under the memory, you must know the truth!

4-25-2013 at 23:33:32


“It’s observant of Bacchus to have recognised it as a bicycle.”

For me, the bicycle is the solution (!?)

4-25-2013 at 23:35:34


For me, the bicycle is the solution (!?)

and the problem !

4-25-2013 at 23:49:09

@ Bacchus

I am sorry to pour cold water on this idea, but that thing squeezed on the truck in front of the BMW does not look like a bicycle to me. Whether it is a road bike or an MTB, its wheels should be much, much bigger than the BMW’s (> 26 Inches for an MTB, 28″ for a road bike). That tarpaulin in front of the BMW
does have a round, wheel-like shape in it (and I have absolutely no idea what that could be), but for the wheel to be that small, it would have to be a BMX bike.

4-25-2013 at 23:51:51

PS: It could be a children’s bicycle. In terms of the wheel size, that would fit.

4-26-2013 at 00:14:57


Sorry Peter, will not have the “Bundesnachrichtendienst, BND” that will make me change my opinion!

Here in Portugal we do not like Merkel , Principalment today. April 25, Freedom Day. (or false revolution)

at 0:26

4-26-2013 at 08:43:56

Good morning.

@Peter and @Bachus and @Lars and All interested in this case and following this case without joining in the conversation.

These days bicycle wheels are small and light. At least from what I see when passing bicycle shops and from watching the Tour de France.

Peter, staring hard at that thingy in front of the BMW it really has the shape of a bicycle. I see the shape of the front wheel and of the handles.

That it is Sylvain Mollier’s bike makes further sense to me, seeing that the gendarmes would have removed the bike *and* the BMW and would have done so in one trip, instead of making a go and return and another go. Government says ‘you must cut your costs!’

4-26-2013 at 09:44:28

@ Peter @ Bacchus @ Marilyn @ Lars @ Fat Bastard
The bike under canvas on the flatloader was discussed at length on Craig Murray and I think David Icke, with no conclusion. Probability is that it was SM’s bike, based on tyre type – racing not mountain bike — but nobody thought to compare wheel size to BMW. That’s new.

There are also the very popular, smaller, “Fixie” bikes — no gearing, direct chain drive, no brakes, no coasting mechanism.

I thought of one: We all assume SM was riding his 4 or 5 thousand Euro racing bike that day, because the press mentioned it as sensational. Is what he was riding explicitly stated anywhere? Likely he had a variety of bikes.

Other suggestions were it was SAH’s bike, that they’d taken along on the roof rack. Or even BM’s bike. After he said he intended to bike back down, following the emergency call PD made and they abandoned the older girl, but they met rescuers coming up-hill, we don’t know what happened to his bike. Did on or both return to Martinet or continue downward and meet with police later?

@ Fat Bastard: You may already have answered, but what happened to the missing or broken roof-rail on the BMW, if you know?

4-26-2013 at 11:01:34

Nothing new under the sun.
I like the so-called mask factor recently introduced. There’s a lot to it. Remains to be seen whether it was used by the murderer or by investigators.
But then, as Marilyn aptly pointed out, this blog -along with others- must be monitored by authorities (hi there! Bonjour!), cause it’s their job. Hence, the mask factor is murky.
Better focus on the few obvious pieces of evidence. To begin with, names and relationships. Also common fields of interest between people involved.
What is the “first witness” actual name? Who used to bike ride with whom? Why did the killer leave the 2 kids alive, when he must have known about them and didn’t need a gun to kill them?
Answers are blowing in the wind, except for the DA who may be following doctor’s orders. Likewise, I feel suscipious about the various smokescreens recently displayed, like the DNA contamination story or he US denial of access to SAH data banks. But if it works, good for them.

4-26-2013 at 11:58:06

@ Marilyn

MTB wheels standardly are 26″, but there are also 27.5″ and 29″ wheels on the market now. Road racing wheels are 28″, and roadies are an extremely conservative lot, averse to experimentation. All of these wheels are significantly bigger than the BMW’s “low-profile” tyres. Fixie or no, that is a simple, easily-verifiable fact.

@ All

I reckon that the thing underneath the tarpaulin is this the left half of this rig

That could explain what SAH was doing at the Martinet in the first place (looking for a nice, long downhill stretch of quiet country lane for Zainab to cycle down, almost as Fat Bastard suggested), why Zainab was outside the car, and why the boot of the BMW was open (to get the bike out).

4-26-2013 at 12:05:14

The ‘mask’ factor only is credible (and useful to X) if it works. It works, because no one (but myself) believes there is a ‘mask’ … so by logic this makes the ‘mask’ factor credible.

X could have simply killed SM … no fuss … just ring at the door and empty a clip in the guy. Why not;)

(Oh, I still do take a few days off;)

4-26-2013 at 14:29:53

re: thingy on flatloader.

Peter, you commented: I reckon that the thing underneath the tarpaulin is this the left half of this rig

Makes sense. Though I can’t see that parents would allow a small child to cycle on a road they did not know and might be dangerous. Would the child’s bike have fitted into the boot? Would it not have been too big and it was more likely fixed to the roof rack?

You’ve actually shed light on whether the boot was open or not when the gendarmes got to the car. (We discussed that the other day when we discussed how gendarmes knew the identity of the BMW’s occupants.) The story at the time was that there was a bag in the boot of the car and the gendarmes found booking in dockets to the campsites and then contacted the campsites and learnt that the family’s surname was Al-Hilli and how many of them there were. We thought that not opening the car’s doors because of a fear that the vehicle would be booby trapped but opening the boot was rather silly, but now you’ve confirmed that the boot was already open.


I think what we’ve established is that it was indeed a bike though we have not established whose bike. I still think it was Sylvain Mollier’s because if not, so where was his bike? It was as vital a piece of evidence as the BMW wo the cops would have had to take it in and put it under protection.


Are you back in la belle France? I wrote about Xavier Dupont de Ligonnes as you suggested. The police have started to look for his body yet again.


Can’t pull yourself away from our exciting conversation?

Saw a man in the Metro today trying to do the Rubik Cube. He gave up and fell asleep.

4-26-2013 at 14:42:19

I have photos of all the bikes trikes and trailers that the kids used

4-26-2013 at 15:06:02


Lol, but I’m a bit surprised nobody picked up the 4-25 ‘lead’. But that lead is so obvious that it would have major implications if it were to be significant. Still, iirc we never talked about it, and it sure would be fun to give it some attention if only for the ‘mystery’ surrounding it.

4-26-2013 at 16:06:55

@ Marilyn
Though I can’t see that parents would allow a small child to cycle on a road they did not know and might be dangerous.

Not if they had just ridden up that road in their car, and not if they planned (as they probably did) to drive ahead of the bike in their car on the way back down, clearing the way, as it were.

@ Fat Bastard
Does that idea sound plausible to you? Is that something that you could envisage Saad doing?

@ All
I don’t know whether Zainab’s bike would have fitted into the boot. Probably, but perhaps they opened the boot in order to get out her bicycle helmet or something.

From looking at this photo
I cannot tell whether that thing underneath the tarp really is a bicycle. All I can say is that, *if* it be a bicycle, it is definitely not an adult one (where I don’t count BMX bikes as adult ones).

4-26-2013 at 16:19:21

CS said he went out on his normal bike, British press made a splash of that normal bike having a big value, the French are very keen on spending vast amounts on two wheels ! Maybe it is the influence of ‘Le Tour’.

@FB, if you are still following our conversation, when did you last have contact with Saad ?

4-26-2013 at 16:37:44

@ Lars 4-25-2013 at 15:29:31
“Re: Lynda about Masons & the extreme political movements mentioned above. I would in connection with this remind everybody about the organisation Liberté et Progrès ( that we discussed long ago, and that obviously interested the Molliers. That organization is a strange mixture of mainstream political views and some very “unusual” ideas.”

Anyone here remember discussion of French rappers Ginolin & Jérémie Louis-Sidney. One of them was fave of son of billionaire president of a Stan country. French Foreign Minister I think arranged for rapper to perform at son’s birthday party. Anyone remember what Stan country?

Louis-Sidney was killed in shoot out with French police breaking up terrorist cell. Police found pressure cooker bomb, etc. were worried group had been radicalized and trained in only a few months.

4-26-2013 at 16:39:19


You can see an officer holding whatever it was :

As I recall it was said that the boot was full of luggage, even with an estate car difficult to load a childs bike as well.

4-26-2013 at 17:37:48


i last talked to Saad 28th august

4-26-2013 at 17:41:57

the kids had small bikes but in 2011 they took the 2 seat er trailer
which could be towed
Ikbal was not very fast up hills
so scouting a route to ride down hill makes sense
tho the tandem did not appear to be on the roof rack 🙁

4-26-2013 at 19:42:26

@FB, do you know what day they left the UK ? I think it was reported as being the 29th, driving to Reading first to pick up Iqbals mother, arriving three days later on the 1st September at Europa camping, then on to Solitaire on the 3rd.

As Max and I pointed out the witness at the campsite said they arrived with a VTT (mountain bike) on the roof.

So, didn’t look like the tandem was with them this time, maybe as the mother-in-law was there they would have been less likely to go off for an afternoon on their own, simplest answer.

4-26-2013 at 19:49:33

I don’t think it matter so much who’s bicycle is standing in front of the BMW, I just thought it was a nice observation on the part of Bacchus. But perhaps a bit of caution is also necessary.

I remember a very long discussion, I think it was in DI, about the tyre tracks at Martinet. Some “experts” who had measured the distance between the wheels on the car in question and then the distance between the tyre tracks on the photos, were very sure, these tyre tracks could not come from the BMW.

Since I know next to nothing about cars, I just read and noted. Now we know that at least the police thinks that these tyre tracks were made by the BMW.

I believe it is very hard to measure correctly in the way described above, because when the car was turning violently, the wheels were partly slanted, and perhaps the car partly skidding. There are a lot of effects that you have to take in account (perhaps also how the photograph was taken).

Regarding this “bike”, we can’t see how the bicycle is standing in that “package”, it could very well be slanting, we also know nothing of the condition of the bicycle. The BMW is said to have hit Mollier, it could then very well also have hit the bicycle, and perhaps distorted the wheels, you don’t need much force to do that. So for me it could still very well be Mollier’s bike.

4-26-2013 at 20:00:45

@Max Re: “lead”

I don’t understand that affair so well that I know how I shall interpret that answer/”lead”.

I just think that if you stab someone 18 times, it is first of all excessive violence, which normally is a sign of personal hatred, secondly it is very difficult to stab someone 18 times without hurting yourself (I don’t want you to experiment with this 🙂 ), it should therefore also have been possible to find blood/DNA from the perpetrator at the scene. The French forensic expertise seems however to have degraded lately.

Have a nice time off!

4-26-2013 at 20:07:24

Sometimes we have to go backwards to find the anwser, re identification.

@Lars, I agree about the bike, it can’t be seen from any other angle, maybe it was damaged by the car or by someone who hurled it (that niggles me), or simply laying against the truck with its wheel slightly turned.

If you see any reports about the latest shooting in Istres, you’ll read there has been an increase in gun crime since the end of the Balkan War, the lad that did this appears to be unstable and a gun fanatic.

4-26-2013 at 20:55:09

As a close relative to the al-hilli family it’s difficult to compromise what has happend. However, he eerie feeling that the death we escaped from in Iraq is still haunting us, just makes life difficult to live every single day.

4-26-2013 at 21:36:35


‘excessive violence’

… is just one of the weird similarities … ‘unsolved’ being another one.

Funny enough at 3-10-2013 00:50:11 I posted the words ‘return favor’ … just 10 minutes before I came up with the ‘mask’ idea. Must have been the ‘wine’;)

sun-thu I’m off … hopefully shooting pictures in IST

4-27-2013 at 00:27:37


Excuse-me for my stupid comment at 4-26-2013 at 00:14:57, sorry.


Why we can´t see the bicycle on any pictures of the parking Martinet ?

Why ? , Where is the bicycle at this time ?

It’s too bizarre !

4-27-2013 at 00:31:14

coorection : Where was the bicycle at this time ?

4-27-2013 at 00:39:55

“Where was the bicycle at this time ?” if the crime’s scene was frozen ?

4-27-2013 at 08:46:45


@Why no bicycle on any of the photos taken at the crime scene?

Maybe some clever gendarme picked it up and moved it out of the way to make it possible for gendarme vehicles to park in the lay-by. Maybe he leaned it against a tree.

Lars is right about it not being important whose bike was on that remorque with the BMW and it was great of Bacchus having noticed it.

4-27-2013 at 08:49:31

@Hasan Al-Saffar

Thank you Hasan for joining us. I apologise for the delay in your comment appearing but I have to approve a newcomer’s comment and had to approve yours.

Hasan, you are very welcome here and I hope that you will be able to tell us about your relative Saad Al-Hilli and his family. You may know Fat Bastard, Saad’s friend.

All here offer you our heartfelt sympathy for the loss you and your family have suffered.

4-27-2013 at 09:28:41

@Hasan Al-Saffar

I join in with Marilyn and welcome you to the blog.

May I ask if you belong to the part of the family that lives in Sweden, or Swedistan as our commentator FB and, according to him, Saad Al-Hilli liked to call it.

If so, and since I live in Sweden, I would also like to say: Välkommen till Marilyn’s blog. Jag beklagar liksom Marilyn Er sorg.

I have been appalled by the little interest this mass murder has aroused in Swedish media so far, even though Suhaila Al-Allaf lived in Sweden. I have tried myself to get some “important” people interested, but without avail so far.
./. Lars

4-27-2013 at 10:47:32

A call for French commentators.

We now have a couple of commentators here that were friends or relatives to the Al-Hilli family, and we hope that they will stay with us, and help us to bring this case to a solution.

It would of course be extremely valuable for the discussion, and this case, if we also could get commentators from the French side. Someone who perhaps knew Sylvain Mollier, or is related to him, or someone who lives in Ugine or the Haute Savoie area.

So if you believe that it is not right that Sylvain Mollier shall be forgotten, or that silence is no way to solve this mass murder, please speak up here. I am sure that you could give us extremely important input.

If you don’t feel comfortable writing in English, you can as well write in French, many of the commentators here can at least understand French. If necessary we can make a translation into English, or if the comment is long, at least write an abstract.

(I actually think we could handle a large number of languages here, and with a collective effort translate these comments into English, and thus make this blog multicultural 🙂 )

4-27-2013 at 10:58:53

@ Lars, yes that would be a great help in understanding who the man was and we haven’t forgotten him.

4-27-2013 at 14:37:25

I fully agree with what Lars wrote on 2013/04/27 at 10.47 A.M.

If you are on the ‘French’ side, in other words a relative, friend, colleague or neighbour or just an acquaintance of Sylvain Mollier who so sadly that September day lost his life along with the Al-Hilli family, we would appreciate it if you will join us here. Thanks.

4-27-2013 at 15:49:44

@ Bacchus 4-27-2013 at 00:27:37

No problem, and thank you for apologizing.

Anyway, the precise location of Sylvain Mollier’s bicycle really is a mystery. Going back to the transcript of WBM’s BBC interview
I would interpret the following remarks to indicate that the bike was originally lying in or at least very close to the road:
Well, as I sort of approached the scene, the first thing I saw was a bike on its side and I’d seen the cyclist ahead of me much earlier so I thought he was just having a rest. As I got a little bit closer, a very young child stumbled out onto the road (…) Well, at first I thought there’s been a terrible accident between a cyclist and a car because there was a cyclist on the ground more or less in front of the car but then there were things that didn’t quite match, because the cyclist’s bike wasn’t beside him.

Another report has it that the bike was “thown” (by whom?)
On the other side of the car, the Briton discovered the cyclist who had overtaken him, 45-year-old Sylvain Mollier. Like Mr Hilli and his mother-in-law, he had been shot, execution-style, in the centre of the forehead, his bike thrown into a corner of the car park.

I tend to believe the version that the bike was lying in or near the road, because it sounds as if that was where SM was originally attacked
Mr Mollier’s glasses and bicycle pump were also found ‘a fair distance’ from where his lifeless body was found lying next to the car, said the source, suggesting it had been moved.

The latest newspaper scenario of course has it that SM’s body was dragged some distance by the BMW as it reversed.
Près du vélo, les experts ont trouvé des fragments de l’arme, ce qui a permis de remonter jusqu’à son modèle. (…) L’examen médico-légal du corps du cycliste, qui a été retrouvé de l’autre côté du parking, atteste qu’il aurait été accroché par la voiture lorsqu’elle a reculé. Le corps de Sylvain Mollier porte, sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique. Ce mouvement expliquerait son éloignement par rapport à son vélo.

Wherever the bike lay originally, I find it difficult to believe that the police would have simply moved it out of the way. Potentially, it could have been a key carrier of forensic clues: fingerprints (if the killer picked it up and “threw” it), perhaps paint from another vehicle if the murder started out as a traffic accident, blood, you name it.

4-27-2013 at 16:24:36

Salam a lakum
you may remember me from the funeral
I have blonde hair and you gave me a slip of paper 😉
I was very moved by what you said about visiting Zainab and Zeena
I wonder if you can tell me if the girls ever got the toys and books we all sent .
Surrey social services wont even answer the phone to me now without a lawyer .

4-27-2013 at 16:52:52

just a thought
are Sylvain Mollier s kids under house arrest until the case is solved ?

4-27-2013 at 18:07:47

@Peter and @Marilyn

“Wherever the bike lay originally, I find it difficult to believe that the police would have simply moved it out of the way. Potentially, it could have been a key carrier of forensic clues: fingerprints (if the killer picked it up and “threw” it), perhaps paint from another vehicle if the murder started out as a traffic accident, blood, you name it.”

Exactly, it’s my opinion. And in this case, “Why no bicycle on any of the photos taken at the crime scene?”.

“if the murder started out as a traffic accident” hummm….

perphaps …

4-27-2013 at 18:08:02

@Peter, I have always wondered, mentioned it many times, whether the bike was thrown – IF it was then, to me, that would point towards someone who was jealous of SM and his newly acquired expensive bike. By the time we see any photos it is the day after, when the bodies had been removed and no doubt the bike wrapped for transfer to forensics, where I gather the BMW still is impounded.

BM must have taken his bike with him as his original plan was to cycle to Annecy Police Station (?).

@FB, as much as I hear the pain in your comment, Sylvains boys were not at the scene of the crime, the older two live with their mother and the baby with his mother, Claire.

4-27-2013 at 18:29:10

@FB Re: house arrest

Yes, don’t put any such ideas in the heads of the French authorities, they may take them literally. 😉

4-27-2013 at 18:43:41

@ Lynda 4-27-2013 at 18:08:02

I have always wondered, mentioned it many times, whether the bike was thrown – IF it was then, to me, that would point towards someone who was jealous of SM and his newly acquired expensive bike

That certainly is a possible explanation. Alternatively, if we assume a road-rage scenario for the moment, it could simply have been unreasonable, insane anger at the offending object, the bicycle. (I’m not favouring that scenario, but I wouldn’t want to rule it out, either. There *were* reports that forensic reports showed that another vehicle, not Saad’s BMW, had braked sharply at the scene of the crime, remember?)

As a minor point, I think that to be jealous of SM for his expensive bicycle, the killer would either have to have been close enough enough to the family to know how much that bike had cost, or be seriously into cycling himself. Unless one is familiar with the various component group sets, wheels etc., it is difficult to tell the difference between a 1000-Euro-bike and a 5000-Euro-bike. To the uninitiated, they look pretty much the same.

4-27-2013 at 19:06:37

Re: Position of the bike

This is one of these points that Brett-Martin could have made clear if he started to talk.

I suggested very long ago that you, as I did, print out a big picture of one of the better photos from Le Martinet and look at that intensely while you listen to the BBC interview with Brett-Martin.

For me at least, the picture and the story doesn’t fit together. This might be explained by, that Mr. Brett-Martin is a lousy storyteller, that Brett-Martin partly lost his mental faculties while at the crime scene, or by something else. He is no longer interested in explaining.

If you look at the tyre tracks, you can see that the car went out into the Route Forestiere when it was approx. in the middle of the lay-by. That is quite natural since its movements described a semicircle from one end of the lay-by to the other. The car was then also approx. in the middle of Route Forestiere.

It is natural to believe that the car hit Mollier when it went out into Route Forestiere. Mollier had then already received a couple of bullets.

I would therefore expect the bike to be lying approx. where Mollier was hit by the car, in the middle of the road, at approx. the middle of the lay-by. There it is also depicted in the picture accompanying the Le Monde-scenario.

Depending on what exactly happened, the bicycle could also have been dragged along with Mollier by the car.

If the bicycle was lying in the road where Mollier was hit by the car, Brett-Martin’s story is absurd. Le Martinet is for sure not big but it is nevertheless several meters (10 ?) wide.

Imagine that you see a bicycle lying in the middle of the road, several meters away, beside the road, and beside a car, you see a man lying. What would you believe? Like Brett-Martin, that the man throw his bicycle in the middle of the road and then went resting beside a car, with its motor running?

If the bicycle was dragged by the car, but was still lying somewhere on the road, Brett-Martin’s story is still weird. What bicyclist would throw his expensive bicycle on the road and go resting beside the road?

If the bicycle was indeed lying in the road, it would be the first thing that Brett-Martin saw as he approached Le Martinet. My thoughts would have been, “what is that bicycle doing in the middle of the road?”

If it wasn’t lying on the road, but was thrown somewhere, I think Lynda’s explanation is a good one.

I personally believe that the bicycle was lying in the middle of the road and that Mr. Brett-Martin is a very strange man.

4-27-2013 at 19:17:38

so silvians kids are in France …with the murderer close and no armed guard
and Z & Z are “where I am not aloud to say ” with
P*l*ce Marksmen stopping them going outside


4-27-2013 at 19:29:37

@FB and others

I actually believe it would be more effective to put Brett-Martin and that “Philippe Didierjean” under house arrest until the case is solved. 😉

4-27-2013 at 19:47:35


“I actually believe it would be more effective to put Brett-Martin and that “Philippe Didierjean” under house arrest until the case is solved. ”

And who knows if they are not?

There is no new information. “the wall ..”

4-27-2013 at 19:59:14


That would really be some news! 🙂

4-27-2013 at 20:14:07


“Alternatively, if we assume a road-rage scenario for the moment, it could simply have been unreasonable, insane anger at the offending object, the bicycle. (I’m not favouring that scenario, but I wouldn’t want to rule it out, either. There *were* reports that forensic reports showed that another vehicle, not Saad’s BMW, had braked sharply at the scene of the crime, remember?)”

Nous sommes en syntonie.

4-27-2013 at 20:38:22

@Lynda & Marilyn

Would you describe Savoie/Haute Savoie as a especially separatist region in France? The more I search, the more “separatist movements” I find, or organizations that somehow want to “protect” Savoie from the bad influence from France as a whole.

4-27-2013 at 20:54:33

Ligue savoisienne (
3, place du val d’arly
73400 UGINE

4-27-2013 at 21:48:56

“Le 12 mars 1999, Le Monde publie un article de Luc Rosenzweig sur le « populisme alpin » où la Ligue est associée à d’autres mouvements comme le Parti autrichien de la liberté (FPÖ) de Jörg Haider ou la Ligue du Nord d’Umberto Bossi. Cette critique d’un mouvement « populiste et xénophobe » est souvent utilisée pour dénoncer le mouvement dès ses débuts.”

Note: un mouvement « populiste et xénophobe »

Source: fr.Wikipedia

4-27-2013 at 21:53:42

Notice that 3, place du val d’arly, is just outside the gates of Cezus where Sylvain Mollier was working

4-27-2013 at 23:11:11


cela fait longtemps que j’attendais votre commentaire et il est enfin arrivé.

Cela fait longtemps que j’espérai entendre le nome de Jörg Haider.

Si Chevaline était un complot des services secrets ((indépendamment du pays) , la famille SAH ,ou mieux SAH aurait eu la même fin que Jörg Haider. Un accident !.

Chevaline n’est pas un complot, Chevaline est un fait local .

4-28-2013 at 00:20:17


All of rest you say, is a contribute of the “Wall of …”

4-28-2013 at 00:32:14


contribute = prove

my translation is sometimes very difficult

4-28-2013 at 00:55:57
4-28-2013 at 08:44:27


Wie? U?

4-28-2013 at 08:46:07


re: Savoie/Haute Savoie

Can’t help you with this one Lars. Alsace, yes. Brittany yes? Corsica certainly.

4-28-2013 at 08:49:49

@Lars and @Bacchus

Haider? Well, it is a new ‘piste’.

4-28-2013 at 10:15:37

@ Lars

What bicyclist would throw his expensive bicycle on the road and go resting beside the road?

I think that “resting” may be a polite euphemism for “answering a call of nature” in that context. Still, I wouldn’t voluntarily lay any of my bikes on the ground, and the only people I ever see doing that are kids with their BMX bikes.

First, expensive bicycles are fetish items. I am not half as much into cycling as some of my more serious friends, but even I would have a good cry if I discovered a scratch on one of my bikes. Laying a bike on the ground inevitably messes up the tape on the handlebars (for road bikes) or the bar ends (on MTBs), plus either one of the pedals or the saddle. Secondly, and this may sound like a joke to you, I know several people who have had expensive bikes stolen while they were answering a call of nature. It is a real risk in areas popular with cyclists. There are gangs of thieves driving vans along popular cycling routes. If they see a bike by the roadside, one of them jumps out, picks up the bike and throws it into the van. The bike is gone in a matter of seconds. Thus, one of the first lessons experienced cyclists give to novices is never, ever to leave their bikes unattended, not even for a minute.

4-28-2013 at 11:06:18

Well, I don’t know about you, but I usually do not lie down when “answering a call of nature” 😉 , and the Sylvain Mollier that Brett-Martin saw was lying down.

If Brett-Martin thought that Mollier was “answering a call of nature”, he is even crazier than I initially thought.

4-28-2013 at 11:19:47

@ Lars

WBM says that he saw, in that order, “a bike on its side”, Zainab stumbling, the BMW, a cyclist on the ground.

The inference that the cyclist was lying down to take a rest (in whatever sense) is yours alone.

4-28-2013 at 12:29:20

As said, Brett-Martin’s story is not coherent. When I listen to the BBC-interview he says: ” I saw a bike lying at (?) the side. I had seen a bicyclist a head of me much a earlier so I thought that he was just having a rest….”. BM then doesn’t mention Mollier at all, until he says “there was a cyclist more or less in front of the car…”

Interpret it as you like, but if you look at a picture from the crime scene, Brett-Martin must have seen Mollier, if he was lying “more or less in front of the car”, when he made that conjecture. And Sylvain Mollier was surely on the ground, resting or not.

4-28-2013 at 12:31:15

I must thank X for the link to that documentary. It surely gave a lot more information about the Morange-case, than the newspaper articles that I have read.

4-28-2013 at 15:38:20

Just for a moment, can we all step outside of the box, the Al-Hillis family and friends can see no reason why they should have been targetted. The family and friends I have found say the same of Mollier.

We could do a ‘well they would say that, wouldn’t they?’, it is true we don’t know entirely those that live inside our homes, of course we often choose to ignore the signs.

So, take away all the conspiracy theories from the simplest to the extreme, that they all were ‘witnesses’, this was a sunny, warm afternoon in early September, contrary to what the builder would have you believe, the Route du Moulin and upwards was a popular starting point for hikers, bikers and ‘Sunday afternooners’.

I have gone over and over the timescale, thanks to Max, I have absorbed Peters Mr Big, I have listened again and again to Brett Martins account, FB and his ‘road rage’ and all the other theories offered.

It is not road rage, the gunman came from a track above Martinet, Zainabs account, so the person was already there, she and her Dad got out of the car, Mollier arrived and the shooting started, apparently – this is the account of a 7 year old, in a country where she didn’t speak the language, she could not have known what was being shouted or spoken, even if we go with the conspiracy lot, I would ask FB was she sufficiently aware of Arabic to understand what someone might shout in a very adult scenario ?

Peter has brought up the possibility of a second car coming to a sudden stop, problem is if that barrier is in place normally it could have been from any day before, any of you driven behind a young French driver when they think no-one is looking, usually with the ‘A’ on the rear window ?

I cannot reconcile myself to the timescale, the ONF didn’t come forward immediately, why ? They saw that BMW, either before or after the event.

It is said that the gunman ran all over the parking, so the cops must have the type of footwear, the size and I bet the weight of the person who made those imprints. Was it someone agile, on his toes, or more flatfooted ? Sturdy ?

If we take away all thoughts that any of the parties were targets, what are we left with ? A serious crime of cold blooded murder, why?

Could they all have stumbled upon a scenario that was nefarious in nature ? Or maybe as Alex believed from the beginning some t**t that wanted to play out his video games for real, take a look at ISTRES.

I have no doubt that the money in Switzerland was probably ill gotten gains by the father, or something like that, Husseins millions – nope. But they would have been helpful in Saads situation where he by law was going to have to pay a few K to his brother, maybe not the amount being demanded but a few K nevertheless that Saad didn’t have. Regrettably, this story clouds the bigger picture.

So, in conclusion, all parties murdered are innocents, where does that leave us, look inward Monsieur le Procureur, look inward.

4-28-2013 at 17:35:44


“Haider? Well, it is a new ‘piste’.”

Of course not.

Haider is the evidence, that if they (*) will kill SAH for his political opinions, or if he was a hacker, they haven’t necessarly to make a cranage at Chevaline.

They would kill SAH so that we think of an accident.

That’s how they work, at least I think so.

Who say Haider, can say Coluche.

This comment means that Chevaline is not a “reglement de compte” of the secret services, this is a local case.

(*) the secret service or any organization who was offended.

4-28-2013 at 18:50:01

Don’t focus on the crime scene. It’s confusing, and those who know better won’t tell.
Focus on the motive (“mobile” in French). To kill 4 without thinking twice, there are not many. And yes it may be “local”, so to speak..

As you can see, back in town, just for another month.

4-28-2013 at 18:57:54

I did go to Chevaline.

The video will be up from here in 35 minutes.

Everything is much more smaller, dirtier and off-roader than imagined.

I’d never go up there w/ my family.

It’s not a beauty spot. It’s just a lay-by halfway up the mountain.

The road is in such a bad condition (big holes) I’d never go up there w/ a race bike and even w/ a mountain bike I don’t see the fun.

There’s no place to hide behind the barrier, everything is see through.

You know I’ve never been to conspiracies but I ask my self who would go up there without a certain goal?

And even to find the spot is so complicated.

See for yourself:


4-28-2013 at 19:50:55

It might not have been one of my better ideas to stream the Knicks-Celtics game while uploading the video.

I even had to put the computer in the deep freezer after it failed.

So here it is:


4-28-2013 at 19:53:02

I did go to Chevaline.

Everything is much more smaller, dirtier and off-roader than imagined.

I’d never go up there w/ my family.

It’s not a beauty spot. It’s just a lay-by halfway up the mountain.

The road is in such a bad condition (big holes) I’d never go up there w/ a race bike and even w/ a mountain bike I don’t see the fun.

There’s no place to hide behind the barrier, everything is see through.

You know I’ve never been to conspiracies but I ask my self who would go up there without a certain goal?

And even to find the spot is so complicated.

See for yourself:


4-28-2013 at 21:40:58





4-28-2013 at 21:53:14

I will probably watch this film a hundred times.

Actually after reading too much about separatist movements in the Haute Savoie area the last days, I thought that it was perhaps not so good idea to film at location, but you survived obviously. 🙂

I noticed that it took you 5-6 minutes to drive from the sign to Martinet.

I thank you extra for driving past the barrier and back again. Now we can really see what a person standing a bit beyond the barrier could see of the lay-by.

I also noticed how narrow the road is. That Brett-Martin could meet a car a motorcycle on this road and not notice even the colour is for me a mystery. I guess it must be difficult to even get past the car.

This film shows the value of showing the real thing, not reconstructions like in that superficial French documentary on Chevaline.

4-28-2013 at 21:59:53


Maybe because you’ve not commented for a while your IP wasn’t recognised. But no, I do not have to moderate everything now,only the first comment of a new moderator is held until I pass it.

Alex, it’s wonderful you having been there, and sharing your video with us.

One must see the road because it changes one’s thoughts.

I now think:

(1) It was not Sylvain Mollier who got lost, but Al-Hilli. I think I know quite well how women think, and the two women in the car might have been getting anxious and upset in the rear of the car wanting Saad to make a u-turn so that they could go back. They might even have got angry and shouted at him because with all those potholes on the road the ride could not have been comfortable.


(2) All of it – the road, the lay-by, the forest – look sinister and a perfect place for assassination. Therefore, Saad had a meeting arranged there with his killer. He arrived before his appointment and had made a u-turn and parked right there where Alex parked, and waited for his appointment’s arrival.

The appointment not having arrived yet, he opened the boot of the car to take something out, maybe something to eat or maybe a rug or jackets for the women as it might have been cool up there.

A child being a child, Zainab got out of the car.

Just then Saad’s appointment might have arrived, followed within minutes by Sylvain Mollier on his smart bike. And the shooting began. Saad and Zainab running to get back into the car …

But who was Saad’s appointment? I have no idea.



Saad, lost, drove into the killing of Sylvain Mollier and was forced at gunpoint to pull up on the lay-by and the gun pointed against his temple he was told to get out of the car, and Zainab, in her child way jumped out too, shouting for the ‘bad man’ not to harm her daddy. And then, the killer’s attention maybe distracted by Zainab’s shouting, or perhaps Sylvain Mollier, not dead, had struggled to his feet, so Saad had a chance to run to his car, shouting for Zainab to come, and he actually managed to get into the car and start the engine when the killer, Sylvain Mollier again lying still and obviously then dead, ran to the car and shot Saad dead. The two women would have been frozen in fear. Such a scenario gives Iqbal time to hide the little one under her legs.

Anyway, this is my suggestion. But maybe I’ve read to many crime books.

4-28-2013 at 22:21:35


I agree with you. Alex’s video is fantastic. I’ve already watched it twice and will do so again tomorrow.

Lars, did you see the potholes in the road? Saad and Iqbal would not have allowed Zainab to cycle on such a road.

And did you notice that Alex did not pass any other vehicles? It’s an isolated place.

4-28-2013 at 22:24:08

I’m off serial killing now. Had a hard day. Had a friend staying and as she does not have a PC I can say without her reading this that she nearly smoked me out of my apartment, but I saw her back on the Eurostar late afternoon. Now I’m spraying the apartment to get rid of the acrid smoke smell.

Tomorrow is another day.

4-28-2013 at 22:38:17

@Marilyn & Alexander

Yes, I agree with Alex, it is a bit hard to understand the reason why the Al-Hilli family took the trouble to go up there.

Partly also a mystery why Mollier went up there and why it should be a popular cycle track.

What do you say FB, when you see this video? What was Saad thinking?

4-28-2013 at 22:56:19

@ all:

I had an idea where the foresters that Brett Martin saw came from – I think it’s at 9:13.

That’s also the spot where you could’ve turned easily when you’d realise you were getting lost.

There was no-one yesterday – the video in all is 21 minutes, I was all alone for almost half an hour.

It’s a strange feeling, I mean all the blood was there just 7 month ago.

It’s all much more deserted, much more rough, much more remote than imagined, at least end of April when it’s raining.

My satellite navigation is from 2007, the roads are much older but they’re not on my satellites – the satellite nav you see shows “off road” for almost the entire video.

So how would you find it when you were not looking for it like me yesterday?

Unbelievable number of people there 5th of september: all-Hillis, Brett Martin, Philippe Didierjean +2, Sylvain, at least two motobike drivers, foresters…seems crazy seen from yesterday.

The street continues up the hill, there’s no feeling of being on a spot where you would settle, it just gives the impression of one possible stop on a climb – when the barrier is down.

If not, you have to stop there but still I didn’t see the particular beauty of *this* spot.


4-28-2013 at 23:32:18


Thank you Alex.

You did what I would liked to do.


4-29-2013 at 00:29:20


Savez-vous qui est le policier municipal qui a été durant un temps soupçonné de la mort de Maréchal ?

(sur la vidéo aux environs de la 53ème minute.)

4-29-2013 at 01:12:42

@Alex, good man !

We all know it looked different at the beginning of September last year, more foliage. I wonder if the road gets repaired, those potholes filled in after the snows have gone ? It does makes BM’s account strange, although I will admit your journey down gave a greater impression of the climb.

4-29-2013 at 01:19:49

We all judge by what we would do,where we would go, fine but those signs aren’t there for the birds !

4-29-2013 at 01:38:21

streams trees mountains
Surrey is flat and suburban this looks nice even in April
I will go there for the one year anniversary
even more so now it looks like a place to drive up and free wheel down

4-29-2013 at 08:57:29

Alex thanx so much for sharing the video & welcome back.
The whole drive is so spooky & isolated …why was Saad there & with the family. I can NOT think of a reason. Except maybe he was meeting with “somebody” & he thought that it was safe enough because he knows that “somebody”. There is no way that either one of the victims lost his way. This just confirms to me that SA & SM where there for a purpose. The went to meet their fate.
Thanx again for sharing this with us it gives us a much better view & hopefully directs us to solving this crime.

4-29-2013 at 09:15:22

@Alex – Top!
Hi Alex, welcome back also from my side. Many thanks for giving us all these valuable insights. Unfortunately your Youtube vid is banned when accessed from germany because of UMG content. could you maybe try another way to share it (or has anybody an idea how to get around this viewing obstacle?). I can´t wait to see it and I guess Peter will have the same problem too.

Many thanks
– RR

4-29-2013 at 09:19:55

@ RiffRaff

Funny, I was just going to mention the same thing. It would be easiest if Alexander could upload the video to a filehoster.

Meanwhile, I am going to tweak my Tor Browser to allow Flash Player to work. Any proxy giving you a non-German IP address will allow you to circumvent this ban, @ RiffRaff.

4-29-2013 at 10:02:04


It’s such a pity Peter and RiffRaff can’t view Alex’s video. It’s a must for viewing because it changes one’s view of the place and indeed what those there that day were doing or had gone there for.

Thanks again Alex!

4-29-2013 at 10:35:10

This video sure gives a lot of food for one’s thoughts, and there is probably a need to revise some ideas.

I can at least stick to the idea that this must surely be one of the strangest places for a quadruple murder in the modern history of crime, and that the number of people at Le Martinet (11) within quarter of an hour is very strange.

Imagine Alex seeing ten people standing there at lay-by when he arrived. I can imagine meeting an occasional hiker or farmer along that road, not much more. (Otherwise it looks a lot like home to me, though our mountains are a lot lower.)

I also notice that the road is surrounded by the river Ire on one side and a steep mountain on the other. Not easy to get away from that crime scene unseen (at least in the Chevaline direction) on a vehicle, though probably very easy on foot.


What do you say about the climb? To me it seems that the road is going very slowly upwards (direction Le Martinet), sometimes it seems almost flat.

4-29-2013 at 11:55:06

here we go:

youtube working 🙂

4-29-2013 at 11:57:43

Thoughts about the quality of the road.

If you watch that high quality bicycle road from Ugine to Annecy that Mollier used that day (there are photographs of that road e.g. in Google Maps), a bicycle road that every cyclist would envy the Savoyardes, and then watch Route Forestiere in Alex’s video with its mud, sticks and stones and pot holes, you can but wonder, why did he choose that route, and where was he going?

And what was Brett-Martin doing there?

4-29-2013 at 12:01:54

I once had the idea that the original plan was to throw Mollier and his bicycle into the “river of Wrath”, to avoid quick discovery, that seems at least possible, when you watch the steep descend down to the Ire at Le Martinet.

4-29-2013 at 12:26:42

@ RiffRaff & Peter:

Sorry guys to be blocked, I could easily lift the soundtrack from the video, but the music (although totally unintentionally, it was just the music blasting from the car stereo when I drove up and down) fits right into the image: there’s even the shooting sound on the music right in that moment when I run my car backwards into the mountain where Saad al-Hilli ran his.

Google just has to come to terms with German GEMA.

@ Lars:

It’s not a steep climb.

We tend to underestimate climbs but yes from time to time it’s not even climbing.

It’s long though and I have respect for bike riders going up there.

Anyway the road is in such a bad condition so I would rather not.


4-29-2013 at 12:32:13

I forgot to tell you it’s almost real time:

I arrived at around 14h45 being in the same time slot like the al-Hillis.

I have all the day time stamps on the original tape recording but it’s not printed in the picture.

The tape recording and the time stamps both end before I went down.

After the colors change from bleak (tape recording) to pink (cellular phone recording) and I don’t have anymore time stamps.

The fact that I ran out of battery made me drive uphill like hell and the fact that I ran out of SD card storage made me drive downhill like hell



4-29-2013 at 12:34:37

@ Alexander

Can’t you please, please upload the video to file hoster? I want to download it, so I can watch it whenever I like and skip around inside the video file, rather than being tied to a slooooooow proxy server.

Those f*cking brownshirts running the German music industry 🙁

4-29-2013 at 13:22:40


I must admit that even though it is not my kind of music it is very suggestive in the film. Oh, and I thought you put in those shots there on purpose. 🙂

4-29-2013 at 14:02:01

@Lars, if the target was to have been the family then their were five to kill, with the conspiracy that SM was meeting them, six ! I don’t believe that at all.

On the day, Saad had his Google Latitude active, eventhough FB has said it is expensive to run, there would be two conclusions, one that he wanted his ‘friends’ to know where he was, the second he wanted his friends to know where he was.

I agree with FB that if we assume they were on holiday and just on holiday then they may well have been going for a run out in the car, before he started on that road he may not have known its condition, turn around and go back was of course a possibility, but when you’ve gone so far you might ust as well go the the end.

A while back Oui posted a link to an ordnance survey map, with the various walks, cycle tracks and access indicated. I can’t find that one, but here is one that shows the hikes available and this one is near Le Martinet.

4-29-2013 at 14:15:15


Low battery or not, you did a splendid job. We all want to go there now.

4-29-2013 at 14:16:10


I quite understand your frustation as the video is a must see.

4-29-2013 at 14:18:22


In reply to your 2013/04.29 at 11.57 A.M.

Indeed, what made Brett Martin go there? What made Saad go there? Sylvain Mollier, apparently, as we were informed, had gone there on the recommendation of his unofficial father-in-law. Strange choice.

4-29-2013 at 14:20:39
4-29-2013 at 14:20:48

What surprises me about the area as seen on Alex’s video is that there are so many streams there. I was wondering whether the killer could have thrown the gun into the stream which was just beside the lay-by and if the current was strong enough to have washed it downstream. Alex told me though that the gendarmes had gone down the stream. So I presume they had found nothing in it with a connection with the crime.

4-29-2013 at 14:34:02


You know, I argued earlier that I thought it could be a nice trip for the al-Hilli family. Then after “driving” around in Google Street View, I thought well maybe not. Now after having seen Alex´s video, and the whole of Route Forestiere, I must say I don’t understand that they went there. I had turned around somewhere when I saw the condition of the road.

You know, I almost get car sick by just watching the video (I have always had a tendency for car sickness). Zainab is said to also be easily car sick, and then travel on such a road for over 3 km, just for fun!


There is surely a lot of places around that road where you could easily hide a gun, and it would be almost impossible to find, if you don’t know where to look.

4-29-2013 at 14:59:46

Google Chevaline images and you’ll see a very pretty route, everything looks different when the leaves are on the trees and the sunshining:

One example:

and another:

4-29-2013 at 15:31:17

I just watched Alex’s video again. I can’t imagine why Saad would have wanted to go on that road, unless he got lost as I said after the first time I’d watched the video. At one stage there is almost no road as the potholes are so very big. I do not think that they fill the potholes in the spring. The local authority wouldn’t have the money to do so every year.

And I agree with Lars there are very many places where the gunman could have left his gun, and that includes having dropped it into the stream.

It’s weird how the gunshots go off on the music tape just when Alex pulls in to the lay-by. And listening to the tape more carefully this time I heard the words ‘shot’ ‘shooting’ and ‘gun’.

4-29-2013 at 15:57:51


Those were exactly the photos I had been looking at when I thought it seemed ok for a little sightseeing. Now I am not so sure. I still hope that the older girl can remember why they went up there, but I understand that it could be a big trauma for her to relive that.

4-29-2013 at 16:36:03

Having watched the video several times now (using, which I can recommend to German visitors), I agree with the majority opinion: Even though the surroundings may look nicer in summer, I find it impossible to believe that the AHs or SM would have gone up there just for fun.

Likewise, WBM was being economical with the actualité when he said that he barely looked at the car and motorcycle that he encountered whilst cycling up that road. The road is so narrow, a single-track lane, that both he and the driver of the car must have slowed down and swerved to the side of the road in order to avoid a head-on collision.

4-29-2013 at 16:40:27

After a hard winter, on a rainy April day I bet it looks quite different in September, pot holes and all !

Do you think that the ONF could be responsible for the upkeep of the access to Les Bauges, they print leaflets to encourage people to visit, they have internet sites for the same.

Make of it what you will but it’s hardly a ‘secret’.

As for car sickness, isn’t that why Zainab was in a booster seat at the front – the local builder saw her.

4-29-2013 at 16:47:33
4-29-2013 at 16:48:53


I’m glad you could watch Alex’s video. I hope that our other German commentators will also now be able to watch it.

I hope that Fat Bastard will be able to explain to us his friend’s choice of having taken that road, if indeed Saad had taken it to give his family a late-summer country drive.


I quite know how you must feel about car sickness. I suffered from it as a child. And in my African childhood we were often on roads worse than the Chevaline one. Ours used to be ‘dirt’ roads as we called untarred ones. A remedy was to put a sheet of newspaper on one’s tummy. Then someone told my mom that doing that causes a heart attack so we just had to suffer the car sickness. Must say my dad was quick on the brakes so that I could jump out and be sick alongside the road.

4-29-2013 at 17:17:45

@ Marilyn

For me, the mystery is deeper than ever after seeing Alexander’s video. Apart from everything else, why did the murderer pick this spot? Except on foot, it is a nightmare of a place to get away from unobserved. It is not as secluded as I previously thought, not a good place in which to sneak up on somebody unobserved.

The only possible adavantages from a killer’s point of view that I can see are the vicinity of water (there even is a little trickle of water right next to the Martinet in which one could wash one’s hands), and, more importantly, the ambient noise. The river nearby is so wild and so loud that it will quickly drown out the noise of shots. I don’t think that shots from a 7.65 Para pistol could be heard from further away than 100 metres in that environment. If this *was* a pre-planned murder, I would guess that the ambient noise was be the most important criterion leading the killer to choose that particular place.

4-29-2013 at 17:34:51

@Peter, so what did giant Melvyn and his father hear, explosions ?

Last Saturday, I was tending my veg plot at the bottom of the garden, someone in the nearby derlict chateau and farm fired two shots to get rid of the heron – this is about 200 metres from where I was as the crow flies, there are trees inbetween and houses, the noise made me jump out of my skin ! It was obviously a double barrelled shotgun, nevertheless that sound carried in the valley quite some distance.

I do agree that with the windy road, and trees it would have diffused the sound and IF a silencer was used ever more so, I don’t think one was used.

4-29-2013 at 17:39:19

@ Peter:

I’ve put the source files on my Google Drive although I understand you’ve seen it by now.

I’ll send you the link so you can download it.

@ Mari:

It was only an 4 hours 15 minutes roundtrip. I took off from Lyon 12.45 pm and was back 5 pm, shooting (the video, haha) and all.

So whoever wants to TGV to Lyon, let me know, I’ll pick you guys up (except for the killer who has to go himself).


4-29-2013 at 17:44:38

@Marilyn, FB will not be able to explain why Saad took that road, he was not there and the last time he spoke to him was on the 28th August before they left the UK.

He can only give an insight into the nature of Saad and what he liked to do whilst on holiday with the family. He has previously said he was a bit of a risk taker when driving, or something to that effect.

For me this has confirmed that the Al-Hillis were not targetted, enticed to this spot for a bit of assassination, SM could have been.

Did BM not say that he’d cycled that route before, certainly I recall he’d gone there with his family many times. He was doing some DIY on the soon to be rented house in Lathuile and whilst there had cycled every afternoon. I have no doubt he was preparing for the winter lets relating to ski holidays.

If you have ever rented out somewhere to strangers, there are many things that need doing, putting away personal stuff or taking it out, sometimes one room is locked with the owners personals inside. Instructions for usage, in case of problems notices, boiler certificates, that dodgy plug, we all have one that needs repairing, and so on – how do I know, been there done that and rented out homes in reverse, via Gite de France.

4-29-2013 at 17:53:25

My offer to commute everybody to the spot made me think if I *was* the killer then I’d make exactly that offer to all of you and one by one there’d be one of the smartest blogs on Chevaline on the internet gone.


4-29-2013 at 18:28:32

@Alex, I’ve thought about asking everyone to meet in Paris, now that could be an Agatha Christie story, wouldn’t it NR ?

Alex, when you took the main road to Chevaline did you go through the oneway system in Doussard ?

On the return from Route du Moulin did you continue Route d’Arnand arriving at the spot where the Al-Hillis took their photos near La Poste ?

4-29-2013 at 19:00:01

@ Lynda:

Exactly. I did not recognize neither where the carpenter worked nor the photo shoot location in Arnand because I had to drive and film at the same time.

But it’s pretty simple, even simpler than I thought.

There’s Doussard where I passed by the one way system and behind it are, next to one another, Chevaline on the right and Arnand on the left.

On my way up I went through Chevaline and at one time you can see a street coming from the left: that’s coming from Arnand.

On my way down you see me right turning right behind where I passed the sign and than going to Arnand before I ran out of SD card.

Basically it doesn’t matter which way you take you’ll always end up in front of the sign.

But the fact that it’s so complicated to find either way to the route, that the one way system in Doussard is a bit disturbing for tourists and that the streets narrows down in Chevaline so you pretty much get the impression to be on a private street while wou still have to go on brought me to the conclusion that they were not cruising.

Saad knew how to find the road or somebody had to told him.

Also, the very large area where he could have turned very easily even if he had the trailer behind him if they would have been lost can once again be seen at around the 16:20 time stamp when I go down hill.


4-29-2013 at 19:40:22

Earlier several of us speculated that Zainab needed to pee, now I start to think that she wanted to get out of the car to puke, from car sickness, after that bumpy ride to hell.

4-29-2013 at 19:48:51


I made the same reflection as you, when I watched your video, that even the roads down in Chevaline are so narrow and close to the houses that it sometimes looks as if you are driving into somebody’s backyard.

You really have to know where to turn to get to your destination.

I did know where “I” was before I saw the church in Chevaline, then I also recognized the house where the carpenters were working.

So why did Saad Al-Hilli go crisscrossing in this maze of alleys up to Route Forestiere?

4-29-2013 at 19:54:55


Picked up a leaflet at the campsite ? Been there the year before on his bike, wanted to show the kids how pretty the forest and brook were ?

I wonder if they’d planned to go to the two other parkings nearby, Saury and, and, can’t remember the name, maybe they’d already been to them ?

4-29-2013 at 20:04:05


I do not doubt a second that you are right about Les Bauges. I wouldn’t mind myself to walk around in those mountains. During this “investigation” I have looked at several beautiful views and read descriptions of the area, and it really seems to be worth a visit. Hiking seems also to be a popular pastime among the local inhabitants.

What I don’t understand is this bicycling business. There are obviously areas where it possible to use at least a mountainbike, but I have not hitherto seen a description of where. And where could you go with a “normal” bike or a race bike? Nowhere? Going up and down to Le Martinet seems to me now sillier than ever.

4-29-2013 at 20:04:34

@ Lars:

I am totally with you on this one (Saad knew where to go or had been told) but there’s just one thing I have to stress here:

You just never turn.

I mean instead of taking turns I just continued straight on.

So it was simpler than I thought.

But still then you have to continue on and on.

And that’s not cruising.

That’s having a target.


4-29-2013 at 20:16:08


Possible, but there is a problem, as with Max’s “lure” theory.
There is nothing at Le Martinet!
What could they write in a leaflet? That it is good place to park your car if you want to go hiking in the area? Yes, definitely.
But apart from that, what would be the reason to visit Le Martinet?

If we look again at the eleven people there that afternoon:
The man that call himself “Philippe Didierjean” & friends, he is local and going hiking.
The rest (including the killer) why are they there, in the middle of nowhere?

4-29-2013 at 20:23:51

@ Lynda 4-29-2013 at 17:34:51

I don’t think that the “gentle giant” Melvyn or his father cutting hedges in a neighbouring village could have heard anything at all (to do with the murders, that is). I have little doubt that the accoustical tests which Eric Clouseau commissioned came to the same result. Being a hi-fi nerd into building my own speakers, and therefore somewhat familiar with the physics of sound, I don’t think that there is a better device for cloaking the sound of a pistol being fired than a fast-flowing stream nearby. The location, with dense woodland all around, a steep hillside on one side and a fast-flowing river on the other, is quite ideal in that respect – but totally crazy in all others.

4-29-2013 at 20:26:40
4-29-2013 at 20:34:50


Don’t slander the “gentle giant”. 😉
I believe in him. Remember that his position was ideal, on the opposite mountain slope. There was also much less water in the Ire, as can be seen on some photos, taken by journalists in September. Remember that it was autumn, now is spring with a lot of melting water coming down from the mountains.

There is also a video when a policeman is being interviewed in Chevaline as they are making a reconstruction incl. shooting. You can hear the shots loud and clear on the video, and the policeman “jumps out of his shoes”.

4-29-2013 at 20:37:37

@Peter and All, then this shooting could have taken place earlier or later than the time stamp that has been accredited.

Doussard photos 15:15, motorbike ABOVE Martinet 15:15 (as seen by ONF) indicated to get back to the authorised route, presumably not visible when they passed Martinet going back down the Combe and seen by BM, motorbike a few minutes later.

Alex has admitted to shifting a bit due to low battery, Saad would probably have been slower, the builders account doesn’t tie up with the timings of the photos.,8691.html

Oui, please come back and post the link to Les Bauges that shows the cycle routes, pretty please ……

4-29-2013 at 20:49:13

Yeah, Alex loves to watch World Rally Championship since he was a kid!

A dream has finally come true…


4-29-2013 at 20:55:46


If you mean the big map that Oui posted long ago, I can’t find that it contains any information about cycling tracks, just “itineraires balises ouverts au public”, it is all about hiking. There are parking places marked here and there so these must be reachable with a 4×4 car I guess. But otherwise, no.

4-29-2013 at 21:14:11

Alex wrote: am totally with you on this one (Saad knew where to go or had been told) but there’s just one thing I have to stress here:

You just never turn.

I mean instead of taking turns I just continued straight on.

So it was simpler than I thought.

But still then you have to continue on and on.

And that’s not cruising.

That’s having a target.

Alex was there. He rode the road. He knows. Saad had a reason for being there and it was not sunny-summer afternoon cruising.

He also wrote: It was only an 4 hours 15 minutes round trip. I took off from Lyon 12.45 pm and was back 5 pm, shooting (the video, haha) and all.

So whoever wants to TGV to Lyon, let me know, I’ll pick you guys up (except for the killer who has to go himself).

Thank you Alex, that is very kind of you. I am sure your offer will be taken up.

And Alex wrote: My offer to commute everybody to the spot made me think if I *was* the killer then I’d make exactly that offer to all of you and one by one there’d be one of the smartest blogs on Chevaline on the internet gone.

Ha ha! I started this blog, so have you all ever wondered why? May the killer not be a woman? A woman who was having an affair with Sylvain Mollier and he had gone and fathered a child by another woman … when he had sworn eternal love to her …

Ha ha! Tomorrow there will be a knock on my front door and there will stand half a dozen cops who will be warning me that whatever I say may be used as evidence against me.

Now, I will say bi for the night.

Tomorrow is another day.

4-29-2013 at 21:16:56


Many thanks.

BTW exactly as I imagined, riding towards Martinet you passed 11 bridges. As Lynda and Lars mentioned, the level of ambient noise is greatest in spring (meltwater) and after a downpour in the mountains. The acoustics in a valley we have covered before and I fully agree with Lard. The ambient noise is along the stream and demps other sounds (BM climbing uphill). At a distance, the cracks of a pistol can easily be heard. Melvyn and his father speak the truth.

Confirms BM as a local he knows the road and took his mountainbike. SM was on a mission, took his racebike because he does so daily. Losing his way is nonsense for EM to believe. No logical explanation for SM and the reason for SAH to go up will never be known.

Watching Alex approach the layby Martinet, BM had a full view of the parking and the everything in front of the BMW station. However as we have discussed, when Alex reversed his car above Martinet and approached from the south, the parking was NOT visible and SAH’s BMW was hidden. When Alex was 10m from info sign, the parking became visible AND approximately 120m of the route towards Chevaline. A full view of SM on his bike as he approached the barrier. Ideal for killer X who started shooting as soon as SM was nearby.

4-29-2013 at 21:28:11

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins on 4-29-2013 at 21:14:11

I agree SAH, meant to travel the route up towards Martinet and did not intend to turn around halfway. He passed his chance 900m earlier and he parked front first in layby. If one intends to make a quick get-away, I would drive up to barrier and park the car in reverse. Perhaps SAH intended to open the rear to get some supplies and that was the moment all were ambushed.

Seeing Alex’s red car park in the same spot makes my heart very sad. RIP
We have become acquainted and made new blog friends here by Marilyn Z. Thanks for your patience and hosting of blog.

4-29-2013 at 22:00:41

@Lars, with the map supplied by Oui, you need to read the legend below it, that will give you the tracks where bikes are allowed, they are not allowed along every track.

@Oui, I agree, could Saad have been looking towards the peaks in the distance and just wonder how do I get up there, or as far as I can with the family and have a view over the Lake.

He also slowed down, stopped whilst the builder moved stuff out of the way for him to pass.

I still believe that most people going to Le Martinet use the Route du Moulin if approaching from Annecy, if you look at photos after the event this is the way used by all the emergency services and hearse.

Have any of you noticed the direct from Lathuile to Chevaline ?

@Lars, do you think we should out PP and her twitterings ?

4-29-2013 at 22:02:39

@ Alexander
Finally having downloaded the video, I am a happy man 🙂 Thank you! The location alone makes this a very spooky video to watch, but, in hindsight, your choice of in-car entertainment certainly contributes to the effect.

@ Lars, 4-29-2013 at 20:34:50
Don’t slander the “gentle giant”. I believe in him. Remember that his position was ideal, on the opposite mountain slope. There was also much less water in the Ire, as can be seen on some photos, taken by journalists in September. Remember that it was autumn, now is spring with a lot of melting water coming down from the mountains.

I wasn’t aware of that. How do you know where Melvyn was supposed to have been at the time in question? Anyway, you probably do have a point about the amount of water in the Ire.

@ All
Is there a haematologist in the house, by any chance? I have some urgent questions – nothing to do with the Chevaline case, though.

4-29-2013 at 22:08:08


Yes, I have read the legend below it. I can’t see anything about cycling there, just routes for hiking. Actually I think that Oui and I discussed that already then.

I think we can let PP alone as long as she doesn’t say anything important for the “investigation”.

4-29-2013 at 22:11:28


His position is described in the article “Tuerie de Chevaline : les soixante dernières minutes”.

4-29-2013 at 22:21:38


I forgot about Lathuile.

The direct route from Lathuile to Route Forestiere, is over Route de Chevaline, the same route that the Al-Hilli family and Alex came.

Brett-Martin however, not only spend 1 hour, from his home to Route Forestiere (2 km), but also approaches it from Route du Moulin.

4-29-2013 at 22:26:46

@ Lars, 4-29-2013 at 22:11:28

Probably I’m just too thick or my French is too bad, but where in there does it say anything about him being on the opposite slope to Martinet?

4-29-2013 at 23:01:43


Your French is probably much better than mine, which has hardly been used for many years.

Yes, you are right, when I check I see that it doesn’t say so explicitly. I guess I looked at the roads in the (mountain) area and where he lived, and came to the conclusion that he must have been on the opposite mountain slope. I can’t remember any other source for the moment anyhow.

4-30-2013 at 00:27:41

re: bicycle

The second photo is very elucidative. They are towing the BMW, but there is no trace of the bicycle. But we know that the bicycle appears later on the trailer. Strange.

And if the bicycle was under the car?

perhaps a link with this photo of police on the ground

4-30-2013 at 00:33:39

“But we know that the bicycle appears later on the trailer. Strange.”

picture 3 of the same

4-30-2013 at 00:53:43

re : bicycle

I suggest to Marilyne to telephone to “MG remorque” telf. 04-50-51-86-20 and demand as a journalist, where they pick up the bicycle?

Good nigth for all.

4-30-2013 at 01:02:08

I suggest to Marilyne to call “MG remorque” telf. 04-50-51-86-20 and as a journalist ask, “where they take the bicycle?”

perhaps a better translation.

4-30-2013 at 01:44:22

Hello everyone.

Another one returning after a long absence – moved back to the UK at the beginning of the year. Thanks for the continued discussion and Marilyn thanks for keeping the blog running.

From BBC’s Crimewatch broadcast Monday 29/4.

“The French authorities, working with officers from the Surrey and Sussex Major Crime Team, can reveal that they are now looking for a 4×4 vehicle, possibly a grey, black or dark coloured BMW X5. Police cannot be specific about colour at this stage.
The vehicle was seen some 20 minutes before the shootings on the Combre d’Ire Road around 2 kilometres from the car park.
It is vital that the detectives investigating these vicious killings identify the driver of this vehicle so that they can be eliminated from their enquiry.”

4-30-2013 at 06:24:07

@ Lynda:

“I still believe that most people going to Le Martinet use the Route du Moulin if approaching from Annecy”.

I don’t know so much about street names but coming from Annecy you’d always take the direct way through Chevaline (I guess that means taking “route de Chevaline”) and never through Arnand (if that’s what “route du Moulin” means).


4-30-2013 at 06:29:51

@ Y:

If *that* is true they have given up the idea of Brett Martin crossing the forrester’s way cause they’d never ever be rolling on a X5.

Instead, they’re now once again, like in the first stages of the investigation, believe Brett Martin crossed the killer/s’ way coming downhill or at least he crossed somebody not yet identified.

Let’s me think of that British SUV acting strangely on the highway back to Dijon (=UK) the day later.


4-30-2013 at 06:47:55
4-30-2013 at 06:59:19

And DNA collected at the scene turns out to be from one of the
police who was not wearing gloves:

4-30-2013 at 07:29:16


Yes, both issues have been discussed in previous thread.

4-30-2013 at 08:17:10

@ schistophrenic:

The “possible grey BMW X5” that French and Surrey police are looking for can clearly be seen in this

article’s photo.


4-30-2013 at 08:39:39

Nice to see so many “old” commentators returning!


Has BBC published this page recently? (it says 29/04/2013 above)
Will there be a BBC programme also?

4-30-2013 at 08:43:50

@Alex, Lynda

I believe that the other road, Route du Moulin, is primarily used by those coming from the other direction Ugine/Faverges/Doussard, or if you live close to that road.

4-30-2013 at 08:48:32


I thought I have a scoop, but I see that Y beat me to it with his 2014/04/30 at 1.44 A.M.

The French gendarmerie is looking for those who were in a grey 4×4 BMW x5 which was driving along the Combe d’Ile between 15.15 P.M. and 15.30 P.M. of the day of the shooting.

The car was also seen in Annecy in the days before the shooting.

The number to phone is 0800 002 950 if one has seen the vehicle or know the identity of those who were in the car. Or indeed were in the car.

Most important: it is a right-hand drive car.

An appeal has gone out in France now for witnesses to call, and as Y telsl us, BBC CrimeWatch, broadcast an appeal too last night.

It is being made clear here that those who were in the car are not being accused of the murders, but the gendarmes wish to speak to them to further their investigation.

Right-hand drive car = British-registered car. Interesting as back we go to the UK.

4-30-2013 at 08:51:27


re: I suggest to Marilyne to call “MG remorque” telf. 04-50-51-86-20 and as a journalist ask, “where they take the bicycle?”

Thank you Bacchus! Do you want me arrested?

4-30-2013 at 08:57:08


Bacchus wrote: Submitted on 2013/04/30 at 12:27 am
re: bicycle

The second photo is very elucidative. They are towing the BMW, but there is no trace of the bicycle. But we know that the bicycle appears later on the trailer. Strange.

And if the bicycle was under the car?

perhaps a link with this photo of police on the ground

Do please go and have a look at the photos with this article again.

You will see that there is something under the rear left wheel. That could be the bike.

You will also see a better and clearer photo of the BMW on the remorque. It is indeed an adult’s bike. See the size of the wheel and how high the handles are?

My conclusion therefore is that Sylvain Mollier’s bike was trapped under the left rear wheel of the BMW and taken off on the remorque with the BMW.

This leads to the question: How could Brett Martin have seen the bike if the bike was in that position?

4-30-2013 at 08:57:54


I believe I can follow your route also on Google Maps. You come from Annecy on Route d’Annecy, turn right into Route du Pont Monnet, and we see you pass the bicycle road between Ugine-Annecy after about 18 seconds. Right?

4-30-2013 at 09:15:35

@Lynda about Lathuile

At 1:35 you can see Alex crossing Route Lathuile/Route de la Poste. If Brett-Martin was out cycling, Alex had probably seen him coming from the right (from his home), and then follow the same route as Alex took.

However on that day he went instead over Route du Moulin for some reason.

4-30-2013 at 09:43:43

@Marilyn & Bacchus

I am not sure that I understand what you mean.
There are better photos/close-ups on the left rear wheel. That wheel dug into the soft earth at the end of the lay-by. There was a huge discussion (in other blogs) whether that tyre was flat or not (since it looked flat on the photo). So I don’t believe that the bicycle was under that wheel.

When you compare the photos of the BMW and Alex’s car standing at Le Martinet you can understand how far back Al-Hilli went into the slope at the end of the lay-by.

4-30-2013 at 09:47:05

@Marilyn Re: Bike under BMW

to my opinion there is NO way that the bike is under the car. If it would, it would have been completely rolled over since nothing is seen from the overhead perspective. BUT that would have led to massive scratching on the ground since the clearance of a car is just between 20-30cm. Remember a car going at forced speed backwards rolling over a bike and dragging, presumably, a man along. Now that should scratch the ground quite a bit. So, I think the bike has simply already been moved by the police when the photos were made.

4-30-2013 at 10:01:32
4-30-2013 at 10:07:49

I just had a thought
Simon Hill and his wife Isabelle and Grandmother Sheilah were murdered
in France in their german car
Cammel riding Suhail Al Mollier was also shot
Police are sure the answer lies in Romania

4-30-2013 at 10:15:27

@Fat Bastard

re: your 10.07 A.M.

Makes sense, Fat Bastard.

Have you watched Alexander Cartier’s video of the road?

4-30-2013 at 10:16:54


re: bike.

One sees what one wants to see, I suppose. I still think the bike was under the wheel.Either the bike was already lying there and Saad drove over it, or the BMW pulled it there before the car came to a forced halt.

4-30-2013 at 10:20:50

Re: “un-appel-a-temoins”

I don’t know how I shall express myself but it is kind of absurd when they say in “un-appel-a-temoins” that they are looking for a car “qui a été vu circulant le long de la Combe d’Ire, à Chevaline le 5 septembre 2012, jour du crime, “entre 15H15 et 15H30”.

When I look at my little “Chevaline-tool” that describes the traffic on Route Forestiere that day, it is easily seen that it is very difficult/impossible to fit in another car “circulating” on that road, that day. And who is the unknown witness, also on that road (!), who has seen this car?

4-30-2013 at 10:24:37

@RiffRaff and @All

I just enlarged the photo of the BMW still on the lay-by and that of the BMW on the remorque.

Do do so too please.

There is no doubt in my mind that the thingy on the remorque is the bike.

There is also no doubt in my mind that there is something under the rear left wheel of the BMW. The gendarmes had covered it with black sheeting.

4-30-2013 at 10:34:28


Re: There is also no doubt in my mind that there is something under the rear left wheel of the BMW. The gendarmes had covered it with black sheeting.

Exactly, what photo are you then refering to?

4-30-2013 at 10:51:09

@Marilyn, Bacchus, this ‘black area’ is where the car had been spinning into the bank and ground below – soil.

This link I’ve posted it before, shows the team lifting a tarpaulin, and another person near the truck head holding either the covered bike or tarpaulin !

At first I assumed the one near the head contained the bike, but looking at the colours, the team are covering the bike, the person by the truck holding the tarpaulin that will cover the car.

Also if BM told the police the bike was in the road and then it was found under the car, well, I think he’d be under lock and key.

BM was forced to the side of the road by a 4×4, Forestry eventually admitted they’d been up there didn’t see him, because they left not long after 15:15 and indicating to the motorbike above Martinet to get back on the road.

4-30-2013 at 10:53:13

Sometimes I get the feeling, that when M. Maillaud and the gendarmes in Annecy, get tired of the fact that people are still interested in, and talking about, the Chevaline killings, they launch some new media activity, to show that they are really doing something.

So they start talking about some american computer servers that are very essential to the investigation or some mysterious car that someone might have seen eight months ago.

4-30-2013 at 10:54:07
4-30-2013 at 11:08:18

Many thanks for the vid, Alexander. I’ve only watched it once and must get my directions correct for the comings and goings, not only of the principal characters, but police, rescuers, press, cows, remorque, bicycles, motorbikes, multiple 4x4s, green ONF, and any I’ve forgotten.

It’s almost what was once called a bedroom farce or a French farce on film or stage, with characters entering and exiting through multiple doors with precision timing.

Is the road really that bad in the summer? I can’t believe they’d pave it over each year, and if it is why so much diverse traffic? The pics Lynda linked to above, of the hikers in November, it looks like one organized group, and not individuals that just happen to be part of a crowd. They area might be less populated at other times.

Was it every determined if the barrier above Martinet was in place. Who controlled that — ONF? Was it locked when down or could locals remove and replace it to pass? Was it seasonal?

4-30-2013 at 11:11:11

It is funny how certain words sort of get stuck on things in the media.

Like Le Martinet being a “beauty spot” !?

If Le Martinet is a “beauty spot”, then what are the panoramas over Lake Annevy, or show me an “ugly spot” in the area.

4-30-2013 at 11:23:08


Since Route Forestiere is a tarmac road (right Alex?), and these are pot holes in the tarmac, the road will still be bad in the summer. It is of course drier, not so much mud, but still of low quality.

I would guess that the traffic on the road consists mainly of hikers (like the ones you see on the photos), farmers with cows, and foresters. There are obvoiusly also some cyclists using the road, why I don’t understand.

4-30-2013 at 11:26:52

@NR, this was just a one off, there are loads of links for people going on foot or by bike from Martinet into the forest.

Some in their accounts refer to the barrier, so sometimes it must be in place, they aren’t locked, the wooden bar can be lifted off or pulled out from the eye of the uprights.

Martinet is not a secret.

The only ones that could answer your question are the ONF, who passed through there before the killings.

4-30-2013 at 11:34:42

@Lars, this is managed land, so it is feasible that potholes could be periodically filled.

The water running from the small feed into the stream behind the sign is manmade, no doubt to cope with snow melt and heavy rain, there are many such on Les Bauges.

As for cyclists, please Google, Velo101 amongst others talks about going to the Col from Chevaline on a bike !

If they are looking for a BMW X5 grey, dark, black – right hand drive, can’t be that many in circulation, surely a quick search in DVLA would tell them where they are registered. Strikes me as odd that the first 4×4 looked for was a Black Pajero, right hand drive, but not in connection with this case, hmmmm ?

4-30-2013 at 11:37:59

I don’t agree about SM’s bike being runover or underneath the car. BM’s account about the bike is factual, see position in photo’s by Roland Hoskins below.

Shows in left corner tarp being pulled over SM’s bike plus video (swedish undertitled)

Shows an overall view of remorgue fully downloaded, ready to carry SAH’s BMW estate. (bike fully tarped)

Photo’s Roland Hoskins

Serie photo’s plus video interview George Aicolina – Blick

ITV Video – Aerial images of the crime scene Martinet parking in the French Alps (Sept. 6, 2012)

4-30-2013 at 11:43:24

Alexander, your soundtrack is prescient; the synchronization remarkable. It has the “skit” near the end, that is not ordinarily played on radio, where Kendick finds his friend Dave unexpectedly killed as they avenge themselves on rivals.

On the call for the dark, 4×4, RH drive, BMW x5, which was driving along the Combe d’Ile between 15.15 P.M. and 15.30 P.M. of the day of the shooting, to come forward, could that be Malcolm Lambert of Manx who said his family passed the crime scene before the murders and returned to the campground where the al Hillis were staying?

Could the al Hillis vehicle have been mistaken for this car, the real target of X?

In the UK and France would mention of a BMW x5 bring up a vision of a
4×4. To my mind, a 4×4 is something with far more ground clearance, or with an Escalade SUV, notably massive. I know BMW defines it as a luxury SUV 4×4, but it looks more like an estate/station wagon to me.

4-30-2013 at 11:43:54

Lots of comments. Once again I must agree with Lynda – 4-30-2013 at 10:51:09.

4-30-2013 at 11:49:07


It is certainly feasible, but seeing these potholes in the video, make me very sceptical. I don’t believe that anyone has tried to repair that road for many years.

As for cyclists, yes I have seen photos of cyclists in Les Bauges, but as I remember it all were mountain bikes, and it looked more like an “expedition” than a nice bicycle ride. So my question is still, where were Sylvain Mollier going on his expensive bike, and where were that exhausted Brett-Martin going, just up and down some lousy tarmac road?

4-30-2013 at 12:03:44

@ Lynda 4-29-2013 at 18:28:32
“@Alex, I’ve thought about asking everyone to meet in Paris, now that could be an Agatha Christie story, wouldn’t it NR ?”

You must gather us detectives, and summon the 100 or 200 characters, including the British ambassador and the alleged 20 military types from his embassy, in an eerie Chateau, with an enormous drawing room.
A ferocious blizzard in June (caused by global warming). We’re all trapped. Lights go off. Shots ring out!

4-30-2013 at 12:04:01

@Lars, my OH has a road bike, cost 2500 Euros (NR – thought this was fine if it gave him pleasure !).

When he doesn’t want to go far he goes up to a point and then returns, no great round trip.

With regard to the road, as you know I live in the countryside, surrounded by small lanes that have really suffered this year due to the snow and sustained freezing conditions, these aren’t main roads, but the potholes will be filled in, only to suffer again next winter. The lanes are never resurfaced, parts of the main road were completely lifted, one stretch of 2kms has been replaced, not patched up.

SM – it would be interesting to know where he was due to go that day, if we are to believe that CS drove to that road block, then I bet he was due to go up to that point and then turn into Chevaline, maybe he was just ahead of timings and thought he’d give himself a bit of challenge with an uphill climb, why not ?

He then could have freewheeled down and resumed his planned route. Maybe he needed the excercise to free his mind from his troubles, new baby causes huge upset to life especially at 45 !

4-30-2013 at 12:07:15

Route Combe d’Ire is a nice tarmac, this is where mountain bikes are made for:
VTT – traversée des Alpes françaises or here.

4-30-2013 at 12:31:03

@ Lars:

Right and right for the bike lane at 0:18 and the route de Lathuile/route de la Poste at 1:35 although I noticed neither of them.

Yes, it’s a tarmac road.

@ NR:

Yes, it’s the extended version of “Swimming Pools (Drank)”.

The video begins with “Good Kid”, continues with “m.a.a.d City” featuring MC Eiht, “Swimming Pools (Drank)” and finally “Sing About Me, I’m Dying Of Thirst”.

From my favourite songs from the album it’s only missing “Bitch, Don’t Kill My Vibe”, “The Art Of Peer Pressure” and “Money Trees” featuring Jay Rock which I must have listened to while on the highway, in Annecy and along the lake’s coastline.

All are from Kendrick Lamar’s 2012 “Good kid, m.a.a.d city” album.


4-30-2013 at 12:53:30
4-30-2013 at 13:02:31

@Oui & Lynda

It is possible, and I understand that there are places where a cyclist has no choice. But look at the bike lane from Ugine to Annecy, it has the highest quality. Or look at the pictures from Ugine cycle club and you will see the superb cycle roads that are available in the area.

Then to choose to go up and down a very poor tarmac road, in the middle of nowhere, is a mystery to me.

4-30-2013 at 13:13:52

@Lars, he was described as a ‘grimper’ he liked to climb, on his bike of course ! Think Tour de France, which I think is planned to pass in the region this year.

As I said maybe he wanted to push himself a bit before returning home.

4-30-2013 at 13:20:19


Sorry, I am difficult to convince there. 🙂


Is it possible to watch that programme outside UK, without a lot of tricks?

4-30-2013 at 13:20:23

All over the TV news today, BFMTV and France 2, showing an account and footage at the spot from last year.

Someone a while back said they’d be singing like canaries come spring, so what has woken them up ?

Probably the fact that it isn’t going away, think us, Craig Murray and France2 forum, David Icke comments stopped a while back, but still a wealth of informations via photos.

On BFMTV website, the matter of Sylvain Mollier being the target is raised, EM responds as being the least credible, that’s a slight change to his 99.9% sure, isn’t it ?

4-30-2013 at 13:33:55
4-30-2013 at 13:49:13

I think that Alex’s video is much superior to that Crimewatch feature.

But I think I saw the saddle of the bicycle on the remorgue.

4-30-2013 at 14:46:10

To everyone, the feature starts about 5 minutes in on Lars link.

If you look at the Surrey link it says that it was about 15:20, so not the killers as such, but could have dropped someone off ! Okay, I don’t believe that at all.

Still it does give ever more insight into the number of people who drive up there in LATE SUMMER, sorry Lars, 5th September is not autumn, all the leaves are still on the trees, it is obviously warm as none of the gendarmes are wearing jackets. The photos of them covered up are from the morning after the incident.

What a pity I can’t convince you that it is possible SM cycled up there on a whim, whilst I’ve always thought SM target, now I’m less convinced, was BM target and SM arrived before him because he was faster on the unplanned detoured route ?

Or they all disturbed something that was going on up there ?

4-30-2013 at 14:52:38


Of course you are right, it was summer and warm.

Well, I still believe Mollier was the target, but I really don’t understand that he was doing there. Maybe someone could tell us, please? 🙂

4-30-2013 at 15:04:12

That BMW keeps getting darker, from white

to grey or black 😉

Coming as they do eight months after the fact, I have a nasty suspicion that these fresh witness statements are the fruit of “assistive”, supposedly memory-enhancing interview techniques including hypnosis. Yes, the cops really do use those techniques, after they have run out of ideas and yes, the results are about as reliable as reading tea leaves.

4-30-2013 at 15:17:56

Looking for photos of the BMW on its trailer, I came across this

4-30-2013 at 15:27:12

Yeah, Peter, that is the solution to what was under the left rear wheel. LOL 😉

4-30-2013 at 15:56:40

@ all:

I don’t find the whole “will the community repair the pot holes in the road” discussion really important, but if I would,

wouldn’t it be a perfect time now, when the snow is gone and the tourists have not yet arrived, to repair these pot holes?

Yet there’s no work to be seen on the road end of April.

What I am trying to say here is:

the road has not been repaired in a long time and had not been 5th of last september neither.


4-30-2013 at 18:15:57

@Alex, they haven’t started on ours yet – still too early, even though its dry, still could be frosty. You are right, they aren’t repaired every year, but in the footage from September 2012, they really don’t look so bad in the route de la combe d’ire, I suspect all the winter ‘junk’ that arrives also shrinks back or is moved back from the road, this is a managed area, they aren’t forever shooing off unwanted motorbikes or picking up injured animals, they are managing the space. I say we go back early September, before the crowds that will assemble on the 5th, but who knows some may already be planning ‘le tourisme macabre’, seems they already do for Monsieur Ligonnes.

All year round this is a region for TOURISTS, money, money, money – who the heck left that old sawmill covered in graffitti, of course the owners, who probably couldn’t give a ….

4-30-2013 at 20:01:26
4-30-2013 at 20:57:20

Your Comments
Hi Marilyn
I have been following this case since September, One of your many” lecteurs passifs”, but until now have not had the time to participate.
Like Lars / Max /Oui I have a timeline set out for all the known actors and there activities on that day, I found Alexander’s video {great that he took the time to do that!} a great help in confirming the times I had calculated and used in my analysis.
I have ridden a mountain bike up past there a few years back, so can have a view as to the local and terrain so maybe able to answer questions that some have on that area from a different perspective.

4-30-2013 at 21:11:55


I just can’t get my thought over the 8 month delay for this call for witnesses BMW X5 4×4 RHD grey seen in area.

Nevertheless, the diagram shows somewhat accurate position of killer X and the shots fired at SM-SAH-Zainab. I have never been satisfied with the position of SM’s bike. SM’s body was dragged by SAH’s reverse turn, the bike was unscathed if we are to believe BM’s account. (SM was “unscathed too” from his interview).

I tend to belief SM dismounted as he reached the layby and left his bike near the location we have seen on the photo’s above. As he walked the few meters towards Saad, killer X shows up behind the sign and shoots SM first. As killer X comes closer to the layby he shoots a retreating Saad in the lower back. It’s a wonder Saad got behind the wheel, put the car hard in reverse with no notion where SM was and drags him along the driver’s side to the end position.

Killer X positions himself to shoot Saad through the passenger’s seat window and continues with both rear seat passengers. If SM was dragged by the rear end of the BMW estate, did killer X drag SM to the front of the car and executes him with the “double tap”. In the meantime, Zainab tries to flee downhill but killer X strikes her over the head.

This leaves Zainab, the bike and SM in the positions as BM said in his witness statement.

On this sketch the position of SM’s bike is theoretical and doesn’t make sense. Killer X is not going to pick up the bike and carry it 12m to grassy hill and drop it there. Unless killer X was afoot, wanted to ride SM’s bike downhill and noticed BM coming uphill at 100m distance. Killer X drops bike and escapes via trail behind layby Martinet and walks towards Route du Moulin.

4-30-2013 at 21:36:29


Welcome to the blog. Good to have a new voice here. I was going to say some ‘new blood’ here, but that sounded a bit odd …

If you feel that you would like to share your timeline with us, that would be great.

Yes, Alexander’s video is great and we now have a clearer picture in our mind about the area.

I am sure you are going to be asked many questions now.

4-30-2013 at 21:40:05

@Nile Queen/ Schizo

Welcome back.

4-30-2013 at 21:41:46

@Oui, I have never believed the killer was on the motorbike seen going downhill by BM. The more that is revealed the more I think he’s telling the truth, if a bit in hindsight.

Nevertheless I think the motorbike(s) were involved, either they were part of the trap or all our victims really turned up at the wrong moment, I’m beginning to favour the latter.

It is said that SM wasn’t a travelled man, like Saads knowledge of French, his would have been the same in English. They weren’t linked, so Maillaud is correct is stating that.

There is no conspiracy linked to satellites, nuclear components or Mossad.

For someone from the UK to travel through France, get a local gun, entice Saad up that lane, absolute fancy fairyland.

It is too obtuse, knowing that gunmen are more likely to shoot at a gas station, hotel foyer et al, even if, and I mean if SM and AH were acquainted by way of a common interest, would you really believe that someone could entice them all up there ? The best place to hide is amongst the tallest plants.

If there was a target it was Sylvain, more and more I think he was just a silly old man who wanted to push himself on a ride up a hill with his supercalifragilisticexpialidostious BIKE !

4-30-2013 at 21:48:26

Hello See_Bee!

The first question is of course: What do you think of Route Forestiere as a bicycle track? Is it possible to go any further than Le Martinet with a “normal” bike, i.e. not a mountain bike?

4-30-2013 at 21:53:54

Ohoj Lynda! Old man at 45! Then I am a geriatric! 🙂

4-30-2013 at 22:12:24

@Lars, old father at 45, without doubt, a mother at that age would be classed as a geriatric mother, so why not the man, he already had two teenage sons!

Lars, I’m not likely to be having sprogs anytime soon, either !

4-30-2013 at 22:17:55

Welcome See_Bee, glad you dropped in.

What timing do you consider realistic for SM on his €5k bike and SM on his mountainbike riding uphill from the sign to Martinet?

Are the barriers in the Massif des Bauges usually closed or unwittingly left by the side of the road?

What is your take/estimate of the spot where the ONF vehicle could have been and stopped the motorcyclist for traveling in closed area?

Have you been to the (Haute) Savoie region more than once and can you tell is about the culture, differences between towns like Annecy, Ubine, Albertville and Chambéry?

Are the locals nationalistic and still fancy to be independent or autonomous. Is there xenophobia in these towns, which etnic groups and how would that manifest itself.

Hope you will stay and join the discussion as many of us live in places far away. I must travel in the coming months to Chevaline and ride my bike from Ugine to Martinet.

4-30-2013 at 23:34:46

Your Comments
Hello See_Bee!
The first question is of course: What do you think of Route Forestiere as a bicycle track? Is it possible to go any further than Le Martinet with a “normal” bike, i.e. not a mountain bike?
Hi Lars
It was summer 2005 when I went up over there on a mountain bike. I found this route {amongst others} on one of the cycling sites. I chose a circular route {63km} starting at the Europa Campsite / near St Jorioz. This took me along the D1508 me to and past the turn off that Alex took to Chevaline {I wanted to see where the “Reserve Naturel le Marais du Bout du Lac d’Annecy” was so took a detour along the D909a}. After I had been up there, I returned and crossed the D1508 3 Exits further down the road from Alex. This took me past /through Arnand {I remember thinking that this was a pretty village}, then via rua Moulin to the sign at the bottom of the Combe d’Ire.
The track up the Combre d’Ire is as Alex’s video shows, a steady undulating climb and yes there were potholes but not enough to make it uncomfortable on a bike {you just go around them!}. I think it is important to note that the stream running alongside makes a noise even in July! The climb to Martinet car park {3km} on a mountain bike took 20mins. {I was 47 in 2005} not pushing hard, just a steady pace.
The tarmac/paved road continues above Martinet for another 2.5kms and yes Lars in 2005 this would be ok for a Racing bike to do.
After this there is about 5.5kms of “Gravel track” past Col de Cherel to Pont de Leyat . This part is fine on a mountain bike or a “Normal bike” you could even do it on a racing bike at a push but would not be comfortable and could square your wheels! A motor cycle would have no problems passing along this road, especially if it was an enduro type. You come out of the forest into Alpine meadows along the gravel track. From memory Col de Cherel is circa 1500m.
Jarsey is just 2kms from the end of the gravel track. So from the sign at the start of Combe d’Ire to Jarsey is circa 21kms.
I will go into a few cycling sites and see if any have some pics of that are you are asking about
When doing this route I saw nobody at all from Arnand to Jarsey but in July it was a nice ride.

4-30-2013 at 23:51:02

Thank you See_Bee!
I feel that you can learn us a lot about the area.

4-30-2013 at 23:51:54

Alex’s excellent video has made us discuss the crime scene and its surroundings extensively lately. Good.

Just to rest a while from that, and let the discussion sink in, I will talk about something else for a moment, something that perhaps has very little, or nothing, to do with Chevaline.

I will try and propose a description of the man behind the other shootings in the Haute Savoie area during the last few years.

Probably it is a single man behind these shootings, could be a couple of men, but less likely.
So who is he:

A man in his thirties (30-40), white, from Chablais in Haute Savoie.
Probably living somewhere between Annemasse and Thonon-les-Bains.

He has his roots in the area, or believes strongly that he has. Is perhaps a little less Savoyard than he wishes to be.

He has a small collection of weapons, he probably has a license for one or two of them, but not for all of them.

He is regarded as odd in the society around him. Now this has to be explained somewhat. With odd I don’t mean that he is a dropout, or some junkie, or behaving oddly in the streets, shouting and screaming at people. No, he is probably functioning pretty normally in the society. He probably has a job, a job that gives him an amount of freedom, and not so much interaction with his bosses, perhaps a driver of some sort, like taxi driver or lorry driver.

No, with odd I mean that people who are getting acquainted with him feels that there is something odd with him, that he might e.g. suddenly say or do something odd. People around him don’t feel that they can really trust him. He gives uneasy feelings to those around him. He prefers to keep to himself.

He could very well be a member of a shooting club, but since his behaviour is a bit odd, he is hardly a valued member, but he is accepted.

His ideas are nourished by the many separatist movements and other populistic and “esoteric” movements in the area. He does not have to be an active member of any of these organizations but he is probably moving in “outskirts” of them, and knows members in these organizations. He has problems with adjusting himself even to these (sometimes) very odd organizations. And I am not certain that these organizations would applaud his actions, not at least publicly.

The motive or justification for his deeds he however fetches from these organisations. Now what motives has he then? That can perhaps only he explain. Killers of this kind often have very strange “motives” for their deeds. To them the motive is crystal clear, that man had to be killed, while it for a “normal” person seems totally irrational.

His modus operandi is shooting the victim at a distance, not showing himself to the victim.

If you look at the victims, they are older men (with one exception), white, living in Chablais. There is nothing especially strange in their background, no criminality. They seem to be ordinary citizens in the communities around Lake Geneva. So the motive can hardly be xenophobic in this case.

I believe that they, according to the killer, have broken some “golden rule”, a rule that he has picked up from one of these organizations. So he sees himself as a killer with a cause. He assassinates those who break the “rules”. Period. Now not all of these murders have to be explained by any “rule breaking”, there is always a trait of omnipotence in this kind of killer. After having killed a number of persons he feels he can decide over life and death, and might start killing also for “minor reasons”, to get even with certain persons.

I believe that at least a couple of persons close to him, suspect that he might be guilty of these shootings, but since they are close, they are also reluctant to tell the police anything.

Now, has this anything to do with the Chevaline killings? Normally I would say no, since the modus operandi in the Chablais killings and the Chevaline killings are so different. But I am not absolutely sure. We have (probably) at least here a person, living not that far away from Chevaline, who is prepared to kill a number of persons. He does it by shooting them from a distance. Now I don’t believe that he has extended his “killing range” to Chevaline, there has to be other kinds of connections, that could link these killings to each other.

It will however be extremely interesting to see if these Chablais shootings will continue, or if the attention that the Chevaline killings has created, has made the Chablais shooter nervous. Since the middle of May seems to be one of his killing seasons we don’t have to wait long.

(I have “copied” this description from two known serial killers with similar motives)

5-1-2013 at 00:06:04


“re: I suggest to Marilyne to call “MG remorque” telf. 04-50-51-86-20 and as a journalist ask, “where they take the bicycle?”
Thank you Bacchus! Do you want me arrested?”

of course not !. You are a jounalist and we live in a democratic society ! (or not ?) ”


re: Marilyn Z. Tomlins 4-30-2013 at 08:57:08

Thank you for your interest for this idea.

That would explain many things, such as BM lie, but with the agreement of EM.

5-1-2013 at 00:08:47

Hi Oui
Taking your Questions in turn……
1) I have worked on him {SM} going up there at 10mph / 16kmh as he was on a racing bike and I have used 5mph/8kph for BM on a Mountain Bike at
2) In 2005 I don’t remember the barriers being across the road at any point!
3) The Motorcyclist and the 4×4 – I have some doubts / questions with the ONF 4X4. The “FACTS” are somewhat limited. If it did go up the most accessible turnoff is a road/track to the left about ¾ of the way up that goes up to Les Sellieres and the forest track back down to Arnand.
4) I was staying with friends who used to live near Annecy and did personally get a feel for the culture outside of Annecy on the occasions that I visited. Travelling out from Annecy was mainly to eat etc. So sorry cant help you with this Oui. I will say however that my friends{English} did not make/have may French friends visit / ring them and felt that they were frozen out a bit by the locals.
5) Locals /Nationalistic/Independent/Autonomous …again as above cant really help you with this.
6) Yes Oui I will stay around now that I have more time

Now seeing as you raised ONF ……I have been reading again all of my saved articles and would like to clarify the “facts” as reported about the sighting of this vehicle!
My clippings show that the Builders did not see it! So who did ? I cant find that info! Also does anyone have a photo of a ONF forestry vehicle, the only one I can find are on the ONF site and they are white!

5-1-2013 at 00:15:04


comment Lars 4-30-2013 at 10:53:13


Every time we have new ideas on this forum, it seems that investigators throw smoke to divert the atentions. USA server, DNA and now (after 8 months) a call for witnesses.

Good saw Lars.

5-1-2013 at 00:15:46

Thank you for your welcome to your blog……I now have the time to read in daily and hopefully contribute and share.
Some of my repliys may be late at night as I am 4hours behind GMT .

5-1-2013 at 00:36:06

@ See_bee

“One of your “lecteur passif””

Thank you to become “Un commentateur actif.”

When I had suggest this idea, I did not quite measured consequences. (Lol).

Now I have alot more comments to translate and it take me enormously time. (lol)

5-1-2013 at 01:00:17


“I don’t agree about SM’s bike being runover or underneath the car. BM’s account about the bike is factual, see position in photo’s by Roland Hoskins below.”

Please, make a little effort

Shows in left corner tarp being pulled over SM’s bike plus video

On this photo you can see a policeman with a camera (upper right corner). Look at the direction, he looks to the rear of the BMW. If you made ​​a zoom of 500% on the back of the BMW, you will see that there is a circular shape like a wheel (!?). Small, but a wheel (!?)

5-1-2013 at 01:13:10


Do you know what the color of SM’s bike ?

5-1-2013 at 01:46:58

Good night for all.

Today is an another.

5-1-2013 at 04:36:29

You’ve probably seen this link:
Yes the term “beauty spot” is RIDICULOUS
Why has it taken this long for the forestry employee to report this?

“An eyewitness close to the murder scene had already told detectives he had seen a “dark” individual careering into Chevaline in a large white car and almost hitting another vehicle, but the testimony was reportedly dismissed as too imprecise.
Now, according to Le Parisien newspaper, there is renewed interest in such a vehicle after an employee of the national forestry office told inspectors he too had seen a white BMW X5-type model in the same area. It added that it was “unusual” to see such a wide vehicle on the narrow roads leading into the forest.”

Does “dark” mean dark-haired or dark-skinned?

For reference, a picture of a 2008 BMW X5

Who knows what year the one in question is.

This is called an SUV in the US; a 4×4 can refer to a smaller off-road vehicle like this

5-1-2013 at 07:31:27


It’s May 1 and a public holiday here in France and most of Europe. I will be demonstrating carrying two red flags. (Like hell!)

Strange how 4x4s change colour in France. First they are green, then white, then grey, then white again.

5-1-2013 at 09:04:37

@ Lars:

You already know this from See_Bee, but I confirm just for the record that it’s perfectly possible to continue after Le Martinet with whatever bike you have and the road seemed to be even in better condition than the road to Le Martinet itself.

If the barrier is down like it was you can continue on car.

However this only means the road taking the turn left after Le Martinet, the footpath that continues straight seems only possible for hiking, moto or mountain biking.

Plus, I somehow understood that See_Bee agrees with me as from what direction the ONF guys may have come from.

When See_Bee speaks of a road to Les Sellieres at three quarters of the way up he seems to mean the road that I passed twice, at the 9:13 and the 16:20 time stamp.


5-1-2013 at 09:28:39

@ schistophrenic:

“The Telegraph”‘s Henry Samuel is mixing two facts terribly up, not the first time in the Chevaline investigation:)

“An eyewitness close to the murder scene had already told detectives he had seen a “dark” individual careering into Chevaline in a large white car and almost hitting another vehicle, but the testimony was reportedly dismissed as too imprecise.”

That is the local Julie (was that her name?) seeing a white Peugeot 206/207/306/307 speeding the day of the murder.

Neither model is large, Henry Samuel added this.

Julie is not a “he”, Henry Samuel altered this.

It was never considered “too imprecise”, it just might have nothing to do with Chevaline.

Speeding is very common in France, and the Peugeot 206/306/207/307 line is the most common car in France and white is the most common color.

It’s just one of the most common things to happen in France in general.

Even if the driver was driving on the wrong side of the road that’s common and it was never said that apart from driving on the wrong side is was a right hand vehicle.

“Julie’s driver” was of dark complexion at the time, meaning dark skinned and haired.

“Now, according to Le Parisien newspaper, there is renewed interest in such a vehicle after an employee of the national forestry office told inspectors he too had seen a white BMW X5-type model in the same area. It added that it was “unusual” to see such a wide vehicle on the narrow roads leading into the forest.”

Now that’s the news.

The X5 in the original news was “possible grey”, Henry Samuel altered it to white to make the two unconnected facts’ ends meet.

I like “BMW X5-type model” though.

Gives the impression of something very determined.

There is no “X5-type model”, there’s only X5.

There’s no range at BMW of X5’s.

BMW X5 would have been enough, but it appears more important when described like this.


5-1-2013 at 10:16:51


Vow! Your 9.28 A.M. in reply to schistophrenic/nile queen is terrific. I hope for the sake of Henry Samuel that his editor does not follow this blog because Samuel may well be looking for a job.

@Schisto/nile queen.

My apologies for getting your pseudo wrong. I hope you are not schizo about something like that.


Your knowledge of the area is tops. With your knowledge and Alex’s video we now have so much clearer a picture of the area.

5-1-2013 at 10:22:16

Thanks, Mari!

Apart from driving the World Rally Championship (I never missed the Paris – Dakar and German Audi Quattro driver/mutiple world champion Walter Röhrl was my childhood hero) I always wanted to become a journalist.

I was just too lazy to write.



5-1-2013 at 10:42:26

@Alex, your Julie is Sylvie Lecoeur, white 206, driver was wearing black.

An awful lot of BMWs about that afternoon !

5-1-2013 at 10:43:46

After reading See_Bees’s And Alex’s answers carefully and looking again at the map I have finally understood one very crucial fact. 🙂

Maybe you all have already understood it, but if someone has made the same mistake as me I will tell them:

As I understand it from See_Bees’s And Alex’s answers:
If you want to go further from Le Martinet on a bike, you will probably turn left up the hairpin curve after Le Martinet, and then choose Route Domaniale de la Grande Combe Dit Chaplain (fancy name, acc. Google Maps). You don’t continue straight ahead from Le Martinet since that road is mainly for hikers.

That makes it also natural to assume that the killer came via the hairpin curve to Le Martinet.

If that road (Route DdlGCDC) is better it could perhaps also explain what Mollier and Brett-Martin was doing there.

Thank you guys!

(The hairpin curve is also connected to, what we use to call, the parallell road, going to Arnand)

5-1-2013 at 10:49:01

Not to be confused with white or light colored Peugeot seen speeding through Chevaline by Sylvie Lecoeur. There was always mention of a 4×4 dark vehicle with British license plates and the driver appeared to wear a whig. Some articles wrote “heading towards Swiss border.” This phantom car now has an image: a BMW X5. BM also mentioned a grey 4×4 and his witness account was morphed with Sylvie’s into a “white 4×4” in early sloppy reporting.

New article in The Guardian after many months of silence …

Detectives investigating the murders of a British family gunned down on holiday in the French Alps have released an image of a vehicle seen close to the scene just before the deaths. Nobody has yet been held responsible for the deaths of Iraqi-born engineer Saad al-Hilli, his wife, mother-in-law and a French cyclist.

Officers are keen to speak to the owner of a right-hand-drive 4×4 vehicle that was being driven on the Combre d’Ire Road, Chevaline, at around 3.20pm on 5 September 2012.

Detective Superintendent Nick May said: “I am appealing for anyone with a right-hand-drive 4X4, particularly a grey, black or dark-coloured BMW X5, to cast their minds back to September last year. Were you on holiday in the French Alps at the time? Did you visit the Annecy area?

“I am particularly keen to speak to any owner of such a vehicle who visited the towns of Doussard or Chevaline on the afternoon of 5 September as they may be able to provide vital information to assist with this ongoing joint investigation.

Investigators originally said they believed the deaths may have been the result of a dispute between Mr al-Hilli and his brother, Zaid, but later moved away from that line of investigation.

5-1-2013 at 11:00:18


I have offered the same information about sharp hairpin turn and steep climb. I placed photo’s and recently even the aerial video which shows exact details you mention. Also the connecting track doubling back to Arnand has been mentioned as a possible escape route for a walker or a track biker.

What is new is the quality of the road for another 2.5 mi towards Col du Cherel. In an article I found, it says the barrier was not in place on 5 September.

5-1-2013 at 11:03:25

@ Lars:

Right, right, right, Lars!

I’ve never understood that before neither.

Killer might have come afoot/motobike though via the hike trail.


5-1-2013 at 11:39:05

Zoom in topographical chart showing tracks near Martinet.

5-1-2013 at 11:45:07

In hindsight, AFP proves to be a reliable source of information

Just ahead of the car park is a road barrier — part of it now removed — which authorities say was not locked at the time of the killings. Beyond, a track leads off in one direction while to the left the road veers upwards in a hairpin bend. (…) Although paved, the road from Chevaline is narrow and winding and it would not have been possible to drive at high speed, increasing the chance of a witness being able to give a detailed description. In the other direction, paved road continues from the spot for about three kilometres before becoming a track for a further 2.5 kilometres (1.5 miles). Another two kilometres of paved road then leads to the village of Jarsy and another main road.

@ Lars, Alex
I cannot find the source right now, but Zainab has explicitly said that the killer emerged from the “track”, i. e., he did not come around the hairpin bend.

5-1-2013 at 11:48:40

@ Peter:


Please will you find that source?

I am sorry I neither drove up the hairpin road nor walked the hike trail.


5-1-2013 at 11:53:05

@ Lynda:

From the same 9/11 AFP article Peter posted above:

“At first glance, the small parking area — about an hour on foot through forest along a narrow potholed road from the tiny village of Chevaline — would seem the perfect place to commit a crime.”


There it is.


5-1-2013 at 11:57:56

@ Alex

I’m trying to find the source, but this factoid has definitely been mentioned in previous threads of our discussion. I remember myself expressing surprise at this, and Lars coming back with a comment saying that he had just told me/us the same thing 😀

5-1-2013 at 12:11:21


Yes, I “knew” that the hairpin curve existed, but I didn’t understood that it was also the continuation of the bicycle track, I thought that was straight ahead.

I think you can caught a glimpse of the start of Route DdlGCDC in your video before the helicopter moves away.

It is funny that this cameraman as well as others is concentrating on the wrong lay-by, that is the lay-by just before Le Martinet where all the police cars had parked.

It would be nice to have pictures from Route DdlGCDC also, if anyone can find any.


Yes, in this case (with the roads) there are probably some news reports that are correct, the problem is that so many reports are so muddled, as e.g. Alex just has shown, that you don’t know what source to trust and what to totally ignore.

5-1-2013 at 12:17:33

There we are

Police said they believe the shooter emerged from the forest trail to ambush the family.

I was wrong about attributing this statement to Zainab, though. Sorry.

5-1-2013 at 12:19:59

@Peter & Alex

If I did so, I had anyhow no idea if she meant, from the road straight ahead or from the hairpin curve. She had probably no knowledge ot either. I would have interpreted it as: “he came from the barrier”

5-1-2013 at 12:20:11

There’s a Radio Erivan joke I like very much (to share) in regards to Henry Samuel’s “Telegraph” article:

Question to Radio Erivan:

“Is it true that old Peter Ivanovich won a Moskvich car on the All Soviet Union exposition last week?”

Reply from Radio Erivan:

“Kind of.

Except for we’re not dealing with a Moskvich car but instead with a bicycle – and that he has not won it but it was rather stolen from him.”



5-1-2013 at 12:47:16

That Guardian link above says, “Detectives released an image… ” but they don’t show us the image, instead a pic of the rear end of SAH’s caravan?????

5-1-2013 at 12:56:00

@ NR
I think they are referring to the stock photo of a black X5 shown on Crimewatch, 06:19 into the video

@ All
Here is some clarification where the info on that RHD 4×4 comes from
(…) D’autant que le fameux 4×4 de couleur sombre avec volant à droite a été décrit dans un témoignage, recueilli dès le début de l’enquête. Mais si les enquêteurs ont autant attendu, c’est parce qu’il fallait, auparavant, effectuer un très long travail de vérification et de recoupements (…) Le 4×4 vert décrit par un témoin a ainsi été identifié comme un véhicule de fonction de l’ONF et son conducteur a été interrogé. “Aujourd’hui, il ne reste plus que deux véhicules non identifiés : la moto de couleur claire aperçue dans la montagne, au dessus de la place du Martinet et ce 4×4 noir ou gris, sans doute britannique puisque le volant était à droite.”

5-1-2013 at 13:39:30

These seems like a good point to remind you of a series of posts Imade back in October relating to cycling up the Col du Cherel ….

Y@10-8-2012 at 15:43:41

For those of you who want some real world examples of how long it would take to cycle up the Comb D’Ire from Doussard, you can look at the ‘Strava’ web site. ‘Strava’ is a popular iPhone app used by serious cyclists to compare riding times on certain stretches of road. *

1. From just after the cross roads of Route De Marceau and Route de Cheveline in Doussard to the multi-lingual sign at the bottom of the Comb D’Ire (2.1km – 89m elevation gain)

Fastest time = 6.45 mins Av speed = 19.0km/h
Slowest time = 9.54 mins Av speed = 13.0km/h

2. From the multi-lingual sign at the bottom of the Comb D’Ire to the very top of the road – i.e. 2km beyond the the car park where the killings took place. (5km – 392m elevation gain)
Fastest time = 25.41mins Av speed = 11.6km/h
Slowest time = 44.22mins Av speed = 6.7kmh

Just a note on that last time which I thought was very slow. The two other times recorded on this climb are 37.28 mins and 35.52 mins which suggests that this is a very tough bit of road to cycle up. It may be that it is much tougher after the car park but the gradient seems very steady, so draw your own conclusions.

Just a rough calculation from the sign to the car park:

Fast cyclist arrives after 16 minutes, slow cyclist 27 minututes.

*What I should have added is that it uses the GPS built into the iPhone to record the cyclist’s route and movement in real time and this information can then be uploaded onto the Strava web site for comparison with others. Those with fastest times over a certain segment are name Strava King of The Mountain.

Y @10-8-2012 at 19:33.:49

The data I refer to is actually recorded by cyclists who have actually ridden this stretch of road – in this case 4 different cyclists.
The extra 2km I refer to is on the road named Grand Combe Dite Chaplin which runs parallel to the road you are talking about.
According to French route plotting web site Openrunner, the first 3km climb 220m and the next 2km climb 160m. The last two kilometres also contain a short section over 15% but otherwise the gradient is only slightly steeper.
I did dig around in the Strava data and it turns out the slowest rider stopped for 9 minutes – maybe he flaked out at the car park and fell down in exhaustion at the side of the road. This would mean his average speed is now 9km/h.
The second slowest rider didn’t stop at all on the climb so his average speed remains 7.9km/h.
The fastest rider stopped for 52″ making his speed 12.08km/h.
Of course the calculation I made is very rough – there are many other variables to take into account – but it was intended to provide some information from real data rather than speculation.

Y 10-8-2012 @ 23:09:51

For a little more detail on that climb to the car park, I was able to probe the Strava data some more. My four cyclists covered the 3kms in the following times:
Cyclist A – 13’50′ (Av speed = 13km/h)
Cyclist B – 20’42″
Cyclist C – 21’20″ (Av speed = 8.4km/h)
Cyclist D – 19’42

5-1-2013 at 13:43:31

Of one thing we are sure. It is that we are not sure of anything.

5-1-2013 at 13:52:25


Thanks for your 1.39 P.M.

5-1-2013 at 13:52:54


Funny your 12.20 PM

5-1-2013 at 14:23:26


I think Cee-Bee’s time, 20 minutes, above is reasonable. And he has actually tested it himself.

5-1-2013 at 15:47:32


SeeBee’s time would fit nicely with the data on Strava.

In my data, the guy with the fastest time is a 40 year old cyclist living in Seattle who has won a number of amateur road races. His time should be a good indicator of how fast SM may have climbed.

As to why someone who lives in Seattle may have been cycling up the Combe D’Ire, perhaps he found the route on this web site –

5-1-2013 at 15:49:15

@Peter, I have read that the ‘track’ element has somewhere been attributed to Zainab, I have been trying to convince many that a motorbike could be hidden there or left the otherside of this track which rejoins the ‘road’ towards the Col, I am beginning to wonder why none of you listen, is it because I’m a girl ! Original ordnance map pointed it all out, going away from Martinet, it is possible to cross a bridge nearby and end up eventually at Saury parking, not a road but a track that would be able to cycle, walk or certainly push a motorbike over to start with.

@Lars, surely you must have seen the ROAD above Martinet on the helicopter shots, the BBC originally said that the killing took place above here on one of the zig-zags and that is where I made the mistake of identifying the parking, the photo is still in Chevaline images. It is up here that the ONF must have seen the motorbike and indicated for it to return to the authorised part of the road for motorised vehicles.

This is why I wonder if Saad and Zainab had gone as far as the second sign, beside the very track !

Even if Zainab hadn’t been reported of the killer arriving from the track the police have – track not road.

5-1-2013 at 16:11:40

and as I posted earlier the French have received over 30 calls as of yesterday.

5-1-2013 at 16:18:58

Now that I understand the cycling routes in the area better, I should perhaps revive an old idea of mine.

Since I, contrary to Lyndas husband :), dislike to go up and down dead-end roads, I thought that Sylvain Mollier had planned a round trip of some sort. Perhaps his father-in-law-to-be had described how he could follow Route Forestiere, Route DdlGCDC and then take one of the hiking tracks to pass the mountain and “Le Plan de France” to get to Route de Saint Ruph, that would take hime back to Faverges and Ugine.

Perhaps M. Schutz said that this hiking track was partly good enough to go by bike, even though he had to walk shorter distances when the road was too steep or too bad.


What do you say about that “getting lost”-story?

First somebody published the information that M. Schutz had proposed this route to Mollier. Then the police immediately announced that it was without importance since Mollier had lost his way.

This police statement has always intrigued me. First, why wait to say that he was lost until someone wrote that M. Schutz had proposed that route; secondly, why not tell where he actually was going, not just that he was lost; thirdly, and most important how could he get lost on Route Forestiere? After all Sylvain Mollier was a local man, he knew the landscape, and knew his directions.

So my question is then, do you see any explanation to how Mollier could have lost his way when he arrived at Le Martinet, do you see any alternative roads that Mollier could have/should have taken?

5-1-2013 at 16:29:00


Of course we don’t listen to you since you are a girl! You have to call yourself Lyndon before we start listen. 😉

Of course I have seen the road above Martinet, but there are actually three “roads” that you can reach via the hairpin curve, a zig-zag road that leads up to the mountain, Route DdlGCDC towards Col de Cherel, and the “parallel road” back to Arnand, they all meet at a crossing a short distance above Le Martinet.

5-1-2013 at 16:32:25

@Lars, at the very beginning having seen the map Oui supplied I suggested that SM was going to do the round trip over the Col !

At the time I didn’t know the nature of the road, he took the wrong road or was deceived by it.

I have finally found the map Oui posted, in the LEGEND it does say that there are only THREE authorised cycle routes, one includes Col de Cherel/Combe d’Ire.

And you’ll see the track and how it meets the road again before Cherel:, please zoom in on all the information.

5-1-2013 at 16:45:53

I have returned after viewing Alexanders Rap Road Trip.
Have not read all back-comments yet and may not.

REF: Wrapped item at front of BMW.

The item could be a bike that had had it’s wheel disfigured a bit either by being run over or something else.

5-1-2013 at 16:46:47

@Lars, there is only ONE that can be described as a ROAD !



Lars, I am the daughter of a highly qualified engineer, I was brought up to be self sufficient in every way, I am the one in this household that fixes things, that uses logic to solve problems, be that computer, electrics, plumbing or cars ! I am lucky to also have been the daughter of a very empathetic mother so are able to see both sides of a story and rarely am I accused of being blinkered or stubborn.

I don’t approve of positive discrimination nor feminism, we are all different and should be appreciated for our strengths and recognise our weaknesses.

I appreciate your thoughts regarding a cycling roundtrip, the lot I never understand are joggers, run several miles one side of the road and then return on the otherside of the road, mind you swimmers in a pool are worse, up and down, up and down the length of a pool !

I prefer to have a goal, which when I cycle it is or a purpose, OH does it his way for excercise and to empty his head of the troubles he has to deal with, I bet SM needed to empty his head, new father, costly divorce, two older boys to support, maybe he was under pressure to hold off work for a while as Claire was going to have to return to HER pharmacy business.

5-1-2013 at 17:00:52

@ Lynda

Oh my, and I had always suspected you of being a mustachioed colonel secretly working for Iraqi Air Force Intelligence 😀

Anyway, to my mind, the most plausible explanation is that SM was not on a road bike after all, but on an MTB. I cannot see any other way how he might be “lost” on a road without any branch-offs navigable on a road bike. Likewise, even if he genuinely merely intended to go up and down that road, he cannot be said to have been lost.

5-1-2013 at 17:15:12

@ Lars
Perhaps his father-in-law-to-be had described how he could follow Route Forestiere, Route DdlGCDC and then take one of the hiking tracks to pass the mountain and “Le Plan de France” to get to Route de Saint Ruph, that would take hime back to Faverges and Ugine.

There is an elementary logical problem with that hypothesis: SM never got further than the Martinet, yet he was said to have been “lost” there. If it be true that he was lost, he must have taken the wrong turn, gone into the wrong direction or whatever, before he reached the Martinet. It is extremely difficult to reconcile that with him being on a road bike. Either he wasn’t supposed to be on the Route Forestière at all, or he must have been on an MTB that would have allowed him to take one of the tracks branching off Route Forestière.

5-1-2013 at 17:32:28


Glad you have returned. We’ve solved the murders about twenty times in your absence.


Types of bicycles and bicycle speeds and what not are all details totally lost on me. Give me a Merc, or a Ferrari but not a bicycle. And by the way: I do not have a car. I have two legs and two feet.

5-1-2013 at 17:33:08

@ Peter a VTT would be much more logical, CS is quoted as saying he was on his normal bike, which the press jumped on as being 5K Euro, now you can spend 5K Euro on either, I’ve checked !

So, who said it was a road bike, we are told he was a ‘grimper’ so he liked the climbs.

Oh my, Peter, were you spying in my bathroom this morning as I shaved off the moustache ? You’re wrong about the Iraqi Air Force and regrettably I’m not a colonel ! You can call me ‘Sir’, I will not be offended.

If only someone would clarify how off his ‘planned’ route he was.

5-1-2013 at 17:43:08

@ Lynda

Sadly, the press reports are quite specific that it was a road bike
Le vélo de M. Mollier a été retrouvé à cet endroit. Cette bicyclette de course haut de gamme est estimée à plus de 5 000 euros, et son propriétaire n’était jamais venu à cet endroit. Son beau-père lui aurait conseillé cette zone, pourtant peu propice, pour effectuer sa sortie.

Maybe they are just plain wrong about it being a “bicyclette de course”. As I have said, an MTB sounds much more plausible to me, given that SM was supposed to be lost at the Martinet.

5-1-2013 at 18:03:22

On Crimewatch they added “the girls are recovering ”
so if there have been calls are the police going to Free the girls ?
or will they stay imprisoned for ever ?

5-1-2013 at 18:10:42

@X and @All

The video posting by @X is very interresting.

1 – The municipal police officer suspected in the Maréchal case admitted writing anonymous letters and threats have written on the garage Maréchal. But he was acquitted of the crime (?).

“… On 21 March 2007, Christian Maréchal, 59, also head of a municipal police Chambourcy, was found dead at his home, larded eighteen stab wounds. The burly man was murdered by two killers he knew, because it has opened the door. He was stabbed at his desk and even beaten while attempting to flee. ”

the municipal police was “friend” of Marechal and his neighbor.

2 – chablais crimes

“In October 2009, Jean-Pierre Mayor, former police commander of Thonon-les-Bains, is the target of a shot 12 gauge shot into a window of his apartment. He hurt his knee by a burst of glass. few days later, after leaving his home in Post, the officer is again the victim of a bullet this time, hit in the head. ”

the crime remains to be elucidated.


In both cases we are dealing with crimes perpetrated against the authorities.

Presumably there is someone who is above the law and justice.

There may be a similarity between the two cases and why not with Chevaline

5-1-2013 at 18:25:59

@Peter, but he is described as someone who liked the climbs, now of course there are many good roads that have an incline that would suit a racing bike, in Haute Savoie/Savoie there are even more roads that would suit a mountain bike.

That old railway track would not really appeal to someone truly sportive as SM is described, quiet and liked to cycle alone. Maybe as a means to an end but I bet it has speed limits as there are photos of children on monoblades, skates etc. aplenty. Not the most challenging of cycle rides.

@FB, unfortunately without any arrests, they are effectively under witness protection, like it or not they are witnesses.

If you believe you can add something that will solve this crime and therefore release the girls from their misery, then I am sure you have passed the information on to the relevant parties concerned.

Searching for yet another vehicle to come forward doesn’t solve it.

As you’ve said Iqbals sister can’t have them as she’s not a British/European Passport holder, is Zaid ? I assume his son Sean is as his late mother was Irish (?).

5-1-2013 at 18:26:23


After the Martinet Parking, where is the first “beauty spot”

“le trou de l’enfer (ou gorge de l’enfer)”

Can you confirm this, and indicate the localization ?

5-1-2013 at 18:34:10


What is the mark and color of witness cars ? CS, CS dad, ex-wife of SM …

Anyone know?

5-1-2013 at 18:37:13

From day one I have said there was no logic in SM traveling an itinerary up the Route de la Combe d’Ire. SM was a member of the local cycle club in Ugine, so any investment would be in a favorite roadbike to climb the cols. That’s the challenge in the Tour de France and also in the local road races the Ugine cycle club participates. Any good amateur cyclist is not limited in number of, or choice in a bike. SM could have owned both. BM never mentioned the type of bike when SM passed him by. We always assumed BM was on a mountainbike because of the photo and at his vacation home the VTT’s were seen outside. There is absolutely no way “SM lost his way” or “took a wrong turn” and ended up at Martinet. If you follow the cycle routes through Parc des Bauges, these intineraries take hours! This one follows the route from Lethuile over the Col de Chérel to Jarsey and back via a different route – time 6-7 hours.

BM had traveled the route at least ten times, we have assumed it would end at the barrier, that was false. Once you reach the additional 2.5km beyond Martinet, the challenge is greater because of steeper climbs. The satisfaction keeps pace, because you reach an elevation with beautiful scenery.

Watch this video taken from Pointe de Vélan.

BM’s presence at Martinet cycling is logical. Nothing has been presented for me to believe it was logical for SM to be at Martinet at 15.30 hours on 5 September 2013.

So the French are investigating local aspects after all, looking for the driver and owner of a dark BMW X5 and the motorbiker. As time passes, greater the chance these two are somehow tied up with the Alps killings at Chevaline.

5-1-2013 at 18:57:45

@ RiffRaff 4-30-2013 at 9:47:05

“Now That shoulds scratch the ground quite a bit.”

Of course I also looked for traces on the ground and there is not. Maybe the bike was at a lower distance that the length of BMW .

5-1-2013 at 19:26:48

Here is my hypothesis.
The killer knew Sylvain Mollier.
The killer had prior knowledge that SM would take that route.
The killer may have even suggested it.
The killer had driven the route previously and knew that the barricade
was there and that SM would have to stop to go around it.
As in Alex’s video, it seems a remote location and the killer did not think
he would be disturbed.
He drove to the location and if in a car, parked in the layby BELOW what is the crime scene. If he arrived on a motorcycle he might have parked past the barricade or in the lower layby.
He walked up to the barricade area to wait for SM to stop there.
Here comes SAH and his family who are stopped by the barricade and so get out to look at the sign and admire the scenery. The women stay in the car because they wait for SAH to decide if the hiking trail is suitable or if they will double back.
The killer sees SM and is determined to follow through on his plan. He either does not see SAH or is so focused on SM that he does not care.
When SAH runs, his instinct is to shoot and he continues shooting to remove the witnesses.
The killer’s transportation is either a motorcycle or car/SUV and may be a borrowed vehicle (less recognizable to SM if he passed it parked in the lower layby?).
After the crime he runs to his vehicle and drives down the hill, not expecting BM coming up the hill.

5-1-2013 at 19:30:39

Also, the killer could be a woman.

5-1-2013 at 19:49:07

chistophrenic 5-1-2013 at 19:26:4

“The killer knew Sylvain Mollier.
The killer had prior knowledge that SM would take that route.
The killer may have even suggested it.”

Ok !

For you, a likely suspect is (edited out by Marilyn)

Nothing new, because if he was a sleeping partner, certainly not the killer.

5-1-2013 at 20:00:51

There are sooo many comments! Please think about M. Maillaud and his friends who has to read them, even though it is holiday. 😉

@Lyndon 🙂

Sorry, for expressing myself indistinctly, two are tracks, one is a cycle road.

Now, I see, you read under “Reglementation” on Oui’s map, I just read under “Legende”


I am well aware of that but the distance between Route DdlGCDC and Route de Saint Ruph (both cycle roads) is not that fantastic long.

5-1-2013 at 20:01:09

@schistophrenic 5-1-2013 at 19:30:39

“Also, the killer could be a woman.”

Who ?

only 3 hipothesis :

(Edited out by Marilyn)

You think a woman can kill as many people with two bullets in the head. Can bludgeon a 7 year old girl?.

Women are also evil?

5-1-2013 at 20:54:36

I think it is too late for the girls now 🙁
they have been cut off from love and beauty and daylight for 7 months
there will not be much of the Zeeena i knew now
and i think Zainab will have become very introverted 🙁
so the SSS are the problem not the solution .

5-1-2013 at 21:06:35

Just a word of caution.

I am nor certain that it is worth mentioning again, since I have no answer, and I believe noone outside the Mollier circles has any real answer.

Mollier being a cyclist and a member of the Ugine cycle club: This has been written and copied in a large amount of newspaper articles and media reports. Mollier is “the cyclist” as Le Martinet is “the beauty spot”.

However, long ago now, I have searched and searched, but I found 2 (TWO!) sources (before the killings) that mentioned a cyclist called Sylvain Mollier, that is a very meager result for a halfprofessionel cyclist, and even for someone who takes part in amateur competitions for fun.

I have searched through old bicycle events where the Ugine bicycle club took part, no sign of a Sylvain Mollier. No signs on their homepage either (not the last time I looked anyway).

So the media has painted a picture of Sylvain Mollier “the cyclist”. I am not so certain that it is a true picture.

Sylvain Mollier’s bicycle: I am quite sure he had, since he liked to cycle and lived in that area, at least two bikes. Which bike he used that day, I think, only the Mollier family and the police knews. And they are not going to tell. I doubt that the journalists that write about it actually know, they just draw their own conclusions, and who is right and who is wrong is hard to say.

5-1-2013 at 21:42:56


No accusations please with regard to who had pulled the trigger. OK?

A woman killer?

I don’t think that a woman could have beaten Zainab the way she was beaten. I know that women can kill just like men, but somehow I can’t see a woman walking up to Zainab, already shot, and then hitting her on her head several times.

The white BMW.

In the BBC link that Lyndon gave the ‘white’ BMW with the right-hand drive has become a UK-registered BMW. Journalists do embroider their stories so.

Anyway, tomorrow is another day.

5-1-2013 at 21:56:52

@Oui, regarding timings, according to reports SM left after lunch so, between 2/2:30, he arrived at Martinet about 3:30, that figures he’d covered about 20kms via Doussard.

So, it is possible that he was going to return via the Col, to Jarsy and drop down to Ugine, this would have been another hour or so.|TOChevaline%2C%2074210|MOvelo|GP1.566|RI0/N151.12061,6.11309,6.31903,45.76194/Z7/

because to go around is another 3 hours !|TOJarsy%2C%2073630|MOvelo|GP1.566|RI0/N151.12061,6.11309,6.15997,45.73806/Z6/

As for BM he didn’t have to go to Doussard to get to Chevaline, he could have taken route de Marceau, now isn’t that where Melvyns Dad was cutting a hedge and heard the ‘explosions’ ?

BM did not need to go by the main route and suffer car exhaust fumes he could have passed along country lanes, I suspect SM did too.

As for the cycle club, it is ,as I said above, that SM liked to cycle alone, maybe he wasn’t a ‘club’ kind of guy.

5-1-2013 at 22:15:19

scroll down:

doesn’t look so bad

5-1-2013 at 22:20:23

Regarding positive thinking

I think many could, if they want to, also benefit, and learn something, from these tragic events.

The journalists: It is no news that media reports are sometimes twisted and distorted. I guess all of us, who has at one time been the involved in something that was reported in the press, knows that facts and names can sometimes be distorted beyond recognition. However for most of us, these were minor events, with no real importance for anyone but our friends and family.

The Chevaline killings is however not any little news story. Still the reports in the media worldwide have been a total disaster. I don’t believe that anyone who has not really tried to find out, by themselves, what happened, like we in this blog, has been given any possibility to form a correct picture of the events and persons involved.

That journalists steal and copy each others articles, and often distort them in the process, is perhaps an internal problem for the journalists. But the massive disinformation is a problem for the public. I believe that less than 10 articles/reports, of the many thousands produced, are worth reading or listening to. Except for small bits of valuable infomation here and there, the rest is just rehashes of these few articles.

Perhaps some journalists will defend themselves and say it doesn’t matter to the general public if a car was white or grey or green, or if a person had 1 million Euro or 10 million Euro in the bank. Maybe not, but why then write about it at all, especially if you don’t know the facts.

So I think that the Chevaline killings could be an excellent material to study at courses in journalism. They could for instance use this blog as background material and see how often we have pointed out errors and misunderstandings in the reports. The young journalists could perhaps ask themselves questions like: “How could the reports contain so much disinformation?”, “Why are not any sources given when articles are just rehashes from other articles?”, “Why does the journalists not check the facts in their articles?”, “Is this a journalism for the future?”

The French police: I think that the Chevaline killings could at least be useful material for a conference. They could discuss subjects like: “How are we using information from the public?”, “The importance to interact/communicate with the public to solve crimes”, “How are we using witnesses?”, “The importance of the first month after a murder, could we work faster and be more effective?”


Social Services (on special request from FB 🙂 ) : They could perhaps also have at least a one day conference on the subject: “The right way to treat traumatized children when they have lost their parents, to avoid problems in their future lives”

5-1-2013 at 22:29:35


Love that cycling map you found! However, what I try, never is the Route de la Combe d’Ire given as a possibility. Traveling over the Col de Chérel to Jarsy is at least 2 hours. Perhaps the option from above Martinet at the hairpin curve, there is a difficult route through the mountain pass to Giez. See the map of Parc des Bauges, it’s listed as part of intinerary J. Wouldn’t this also be a possible escape route for a track motorbike?

I still believe it difficult for SM to get back to Ugine in time for supper and do the baby chores. 🙂

5-1-2013 at 22:30:09


Yes, you are right, Sylvain was perhaps no club kid. 🙂

Yes, I am certain that if you know your way around these mountains there are stretches that you could go even with a race bike, if you just can avoid those parts that look more like off road to me.

5-1-2013 at 22:41:07,1076.html

Found this, Daily Star, look at the top of the car park there’s another set, smaller of tyre tracks, could be the BMW pulling in and breaking, not sure

5-1-2013 at 22:46:17


Wrong link, I guess?

5-1-2013 at 23:13:02

Lars, correct, this link shows the cycle route and describes the nature of the route, I don’t think it would take two hours, even if it did, that is well within a round trip of some 3 hours or so, CS became worried around dusk, that would have been about 7/8pm, some 5 hours after he left. I suspect she became concerned because he didn’t answer his phone or call her back after no doubt many messages.

Here is the Daily Star link:

5-1-2013 at 23:13:06

I spent tonight running Alex’s excellent video timeline against my original timeline analysis. . I have also checked back trying to find the origin of the “Green 4×4 /ONF which I will cover in a separate post.

Where Alex runs out of SD card near the top of Combe d’ire as he crosses the last bridge there is a break in the video. To adjust the time for the break I have taken the difference in time for the up and down trip to the same point (20seconds) to arrive at an adjusted time for the trip up, this should provide accurate for our purposes. I have Alex making the trip up in 5mins 23 seconds and down in 6mins 03 seconds.

I like to start with facts / reports that can be cross referenced and I believe that starting with the simplest scenario is often the most accurate. I have accepted BM timings and sightings and that the police have photos of SAH & family with a time stamp of 15:15 taken in Arnand.

In my analysis of the time taken for SAH to drive from the sign to the Martinet car park I had assumed 20mph/32kmh for 3km/1.86miles would have taken 5mins 59seconds – so let us say 6mins up. Given Alex’s “spirited driving” on the way up it would not be unreasonable to assume that SAH with family may have taken a little longer, but probably not more than 7mins from the sign at the start of Combe d’Ire. So SAH could have arrived at the Martinet car park as early as 15:24:30 {6mins up } or 15:25:30. This assume the report of SAH photos in Arnand at 15:15 is accurate.

To not pass BM going up Combe d’Ire they must have been back in the car by 15:16, SAH drives out of Arnand towards Chevaline, a short road of circa .25km /0.155 miles, turning left onto the road that Alex drove into Chevaline along,{D181 Route de Chevaline}, from this point to the sign at the start of Combe d’Ire is 1.25km. It would take SAH less than 2mins at 25mph to go from Arnand to the sign at Combe d’Ire

It is along this road that the builders were working at a property {#857} and SAH had to wait {how long we do not know} for them to move stuff to let him pass . I was misled originally by the poor UK press reporting that miss translated the original French reports of what was said by the builder and caused confusion.
I believe that below is what the builders actually said, reported 12th Sept 2012 in Le Parisien:-

“Si l’heure exacte à laquelle la famille Al-Hilli a quitté le camping du Solitaire du Lac, à Saint-Jorioz, le 5 septembre n’est pas connue, deux ouvriers maçons qui restaurent un chalet à Chevaline, au 857, route de la Combe-d’Ire, assurent les avoir vus passer « vers 15 heures, peut-être un peu plus tard ». Les deux hommes ont bien vu le break BMW couleur prune, et se souviennent que le conducteur leur « a fait un signe de la tête ». Comme pour les remercier de s’écarter à l’arrivée de la voiture, car le chantier empiétait un peu sur la chaussée. Autre témoin, juste en face, la propriétaire de la ferme de la famille Ducher, qui était sur son balcon. Elle n’a pas vu la voiture monter. Personne n’a vu passer non plus le cycliste Sylvain Mollier, peut-être monté par la route du Moulin, de l’autre côté de la combe. Ni le cycliste britannique qui a découvert le premier les corps. Quant au fameux 4 x 4 vert aperçu par certains témoins, il pourrait s’agir d’un des nombreux véhicules de l’Office national des forêts, très présents dans ce massif.”
Quote from :-

I believe {from my limited French } that “vers 15 heures, peut-être un peu plus tard” means “around 15.00 maybe a little bit later “ {I am sure the native French speakers here will correct me if I am wrong!}. So 15.17 ish at the builders is NOT at odds with the facts as we know them. Let’s assume that SAH is delayed by the builder for 30secs while he moved whatever, maybe his van, we have SAH at the sign by 15:18:30. {Alex took 2mins and 8 seconds from the turn to Arnand to the sign}

I believe that BM arrived at the sign shortly after via Route Moulin at 15:19 with SM following him in short order. I have established this by back calculating from their arrival times at Martinet car park and assuming a 5mph/8kmh for BM on his mountain bike – {23/24mins from the sign} and 10mph/16kmh for SM {11.5 mins from the sign} .

Neither BM or SM would have seen SAH pass along Route de Chevaline and past the sign at the start of the climb up Combe d’Ire and would also support BM’s testimony that he saw only a 4×4 {4×4#1}and a motorcycle {MC#2} coming down Combe d’Ire.

If SM rode directly from Ugine to Combe d’Ire he would have left Ugine at around 14.33. It is 23.5km/ 14.6miles from Ugine to the Sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire. If you assume an average speed of 33kmh/20mph on a racing bike it would take him 44mins. So to Arrive at the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire shortly after BM had passed at 15:19:00, SM would have been leaving Ugine at 14:35, and probably left his house at 14:30:00. {Incidentally the same time as BM left his house}

BM stated that he left his house at 14:30 for his ride. His house in Lathuile is only 2kms from the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire, obviously he did not go straight there as he had been ridding for 49mins when he arrived at the sign at 15:19:00. I note also that by back calculating from the sign to Arnand that BM was in, or passed through, Arnand at the time SAH and family were taking photos in Arnand. At 16kmh / 10mph it would have taken him 3 to 4 mins to travel from Arnand to the sign along route Moulin so he would have been in/ left Arnand at 15:15/15:16. It would be easy to speculate, however all I will say at this point is that coincidence’s are simply that, coincidence’s, although they should be investigated thoroughly.

N.B. I have believed since BM’s TV interview that his public statement has been “staged managed” by those investigating the events of 5thSept 2012. I am sure that BM knows more than he stated in his BBC interview, maybe the main message they wanted to get over was that BM had seen very little, where in reality he had told those investigating a lot more. Why, maybe to put up the pretence that he was not an identification threat to the perpetrators {yes, I meant to use the plural}, and hence not worth targeting. The situation the surviving children find themselves in not inconsistent with this hypothesis.

So with regard to SAH/SM/BM I believe that the above is a decent attempt at showing how they all got up to Martinet.

5-1-2013 at 23:16:49

The ONF discussion seems to have been started by Mr Maillaud if the report in the Telegraph on the 5th of October 2012 is accurate? BM only says he saw a 4×4 {4X4 #1} followed by a motorcycle {MC #2} coming DOWN the Combed’Ire so the Telegraph quote is inaccurate in any case.

<>Daily Telegraph 15 10 2012.

I can find anywhere anyone being “quoted “ as having seen a “GREEN” 4×4,{4X4 #1}. it seems to be a conclusion reached by some {Maillaud et al } that the 4×4 vehicle that BM saw was ONF and hence Green!

There may well have been a ONF vehicle in the area and we have the story of the motorcyclist #3 being warned off the forest tracks by the ONF to support that. {I do not have enough information that I can cross reference on this sighting yet – but I am working on it – does anyone have any original French quotes on this?}.

We also have the first mention on 14 04 2013, reported in Le Parisian, of a X5 {BMW} 4×4 {4×4 #3} on 14 04 2013 and of course a new witness that is an employee {?agent?} of the ONF! – see below :-

Ce nouveau témoin, un agent de l’Office national des forêts (ONF), a assuré avoir croisé ce qu’il a décrit comme étant un modèle de type X5 de la marque allemande. {The new witness, an agent of the National Forestry Office (ONF), assured to have crossed what he described as a model X5 type the German mark}
{I believe that “de la marque allemande “ refers to the brand not the number plate , please would a native French speaker confirm this}.

The article also links this with the white car seen by SL and infers that she saw a white 4×4 {previous reports had stated that this was a white car like a Peugeot 206/307. It raises a question as to whether SL can tell her Peugeot’s from her BMW’S at speed!

To confuse matters on the 29th of April the UK BBC Crimewatch program stated that Police were looking for a “Right hand drive 4×4 Grey, Black or dark colored, Possibly a BMW X5 seen 2km below the Martinet car park on route Combe d’Ire 20 mins before the shooting. So this sounds more like the 4×4 that BM said he saw descending Combe d’Ire probably on its way up at 15:10.

For the time being I am assuming that the Crimewatch description is correct and that the BMW is indeed not the same vehicle as SL saw at around 16:15.
However , I find the timing of her sighting interesting, she had been to the supermarket/shop and has {it is claimed} a receipt with a time stamp of circa 16.10. So, if she drove back immediately leaving the center of Doussard at 16.11 she would have arrived at the bend at 16.15{16:15 was the time reported by on the 6th of September 2012 }.

At this time 16.15 the emergency services were already on Combe d’Ire and this car is not mentioned by BM or PD.

So could this have vehicle have been involved {Peugeot 206/307 – white}, most certainly, but not up on Combe d’Ire as we know it was not seen by BM or PD. Of course it could have been parked up watching events unfold and then departing after the emergency services arrived and all other actors had safely left the scene.

Again It may just be just coincidence again but MC #1, the one seen returning down the track towards Jarsy by the farmer would have got to Jarsy at 16.13 by my calculation if he had left the Martinet car park at 15:31.

5-1-2013 at 23:59:57

@See Bee, problem is Janin the farmer on the Col said it headed towards Martinet, I believe that it was certainly headed towards Jarsy but when spotted stopped and did a turn to give the impression of going the other way – so, maybe it did continue to Jarsy, when Janin went back to cleaning his cheeseborads.

Janin is reported as saying the rider wasn’t stable on the bike and didn’t appear to be in a hurry, stopping to let the herd pass.

‘marque’ is a brand, so yes just referring to the vehicle being a german brand.

As for Sylvie, 206/306 are hatchbacks and very, very ordinary in France, then there is the estate/break SW range, similar in style to Saads BMW, although not as long, a 406 would be a similar style, although, the series are now up to a 208/308, I have a 207 and a 307SW. Used to own a 406SW

It would be very difficult to describe one of these Peugeots as a 4×4.

5-2-2013 at 00:10:56


Thank you for your warning. I understand.

If we can not name the suspects, even their initial, it becomes difficult to work.

For me, a suspect is not a criminal. There are, by the force of law, the presumption of innocence. I respect that. I am not responsible if there are unforeseen circumstances that involve directly or indirectly, people close to the case.

It would be incorrect and even punishable by saying that my neighbor is a suspect in this case. Because there is no connection between him and Chevaline.

But when there is a link, it is normal to call “suspect” a person.

I myself am a suspect in this case, because exist a link with my interest to this case and this case.

I agree that the word “suspect” became pejorative.
What is the word we will to use to designate a person who could be in connection with this case?

5-2-2013 at 00:51:53

@ Lars/ all you may find this link helpful .

This link takes you to the area map – just zoom in on the area – it will zoom to house level and shows all the contours and tracks in the area.

1) @ Lars <>
Yes Lars, right after the Martinet car park it is a sharp left uphill haipin bend that doubles back on itself before bearing right on another hairpin the road/track is quite good here and you go straight on towards Col de Cherel.

2) @ Lars <>
Smells like French BS to me! Let’s think about it …….SM belongs to cycle club {see pic of club members here } these are road racers ! Usually road race cyclists stick to road bikes and don’t mess with mountain bikes. Euro 5000 bike sounds like a road bike.

I think he would have turned round before he got to Martinet if he was “lost”. He would have had to have made his mistake by turning into/off of the D1508 for

Arnand /Doussard/Chevaline….did he not see the sign posts ! Lets assum there was another climb out of Doussard/Chevaline/Arnand – well there isn’t one that a road bike could go up! – They have taken down there 2012 album but the photos will give you an idea of the culture. I have a group photo which I can email if you don’t have it.

No I believe SM knew where he was going …… I am not sure he intended to go all the way over to Jarsy though …..Its is possible, even on the type of bike he had, I have when I was younger {before mountain bikes existed}, gone along tracks a lot worse than this one!

3) @ Lars <> How local was SM. Yes he lived in Ugine and had lived in the region before but there were, in previous posts, discussions about hunting which may {if this is the real SM and not another} give more insight into SM and his activities. Ask if you want to know more or do not already have that information.

4) @Lars <>
I may have found some more last night if of any interest !

5)@Bacchus <>

From memory you get out of the trees when you get onto the gravel track and start to climb out of the valley up towards Col de Cherel. Here there are Alpine meadows and some nice views.

To put the trip into perspective the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire is at circa 480m and Martinet car park is at circa 800m and 320m climb in 3km. Col de Cherel is at circa 1500m so a steady climb of 600m in circa 9km.

From Col de Cherel there are views to the West over the Bauges Valley and of the Dent de Pleuven and up to the East is Pnte d’Arcalod. I don’t remember “Le trou de l’enfer”.

5-2-2013 at 01:38:16

@ Lynda 23:59:57

1) <>

The information I have differs from yours! Please see this link from Le Parisian

« Il était environ 16 heures, c’était une grosse moto de route et son pilote n’était pas très sûr de lui car on le voyait souvent mettre pied à terre. Son engin n’était pas adapté à cette route, dégradée à cet endroit. Il y avait des sacoches accrochées de chaque côté. Je l’ai vu à 50 m environ, j’étais en train de nettoyer des planches à fromages », se souvient un éleveur qui possède un alpage au col de Chérel, dans cette région où se fabriquent des tomes réputées.

Cette moto, les gendarmes qui enquêtent sur l’exécution de trois membres de la famille britannique Al-Hilli et du cycliste Sylvain Mollier le 5 septembre dernier à Chevaline (Haute-Savoie) la recherchent toujours. Le conducteur de cette cylindrée, aperçue par l’éleveur quelques minutes après les faits, pourrait peut-être apporter un témoignage important pour l’enquête.
L’exploitant agricole, installé de longue date sur le col dont il connaît chaque recoin, a « suivi du regard un moment » cette moto qui, selon lui, « montait de la Savoie vers la Haute-Savoie ». Un sens qui ne correspondrait pas à la fuite de l’assassin car ce dernier a sans doute emprunté la piste de montagne qui part du lieu-dit du Martinet, quittant Chevaline en sens inverse. Mais la présence de cette moto, ce jour-là, à cette heure-là et toujours non identifiée, intrigue les gendarmes de la section de recherches de gendarmerie de Chambéry. Une des hypothèses envisagée est que ce deux-roues pourrait être un relais pour le tireur et les éventuels complices de la tuerie de Chevaline.

L’éleveur, qui avait déjà apporté son témoignage au début de l’enquête, a été entendu de nouveau récemment car les enquêteurs sont dans la phase de vérification de tous les éléments dont ils disposent. Et le propriétaire de cette moto ne s’est toujours pas manifesté auprès des gendarmes malgré l’appel à témoins lancé au début du mois. Un autre jeune pilote de moto trial aperçu le jour du drame dans les environs de Chevaline a, lui, été retrouvé depuis. Il s’agit d’un adolescent qui pilotait son engin dans la zone de réserve de chasse du massif des Bauges et qui a été mis hors de cause.

It is clear to me that the Farmer saw the motorcycle {MC# 1} after the shooting coming from Martinet car park and going towards Jarsy.

I believe that you are confusing the motorcycle seen by the farmer Janin {MC #1} and the motorcycle warned off by the ONF {MC #3} as MC# 1 was not stopped by anyone. { Un autre jeune pilote de moto trial aperçu le jour du drame dans les environs de Chevaline a, lui, été retrouvé depuis. Il s’agit d’un adolescent qui pilotait son engin dans la zone de réserve de chasse du massif des Bauges et qui a été mis hors de cause.}

2) <> Thank you for confirming that – so the French ONF witness report does not mention a BMW, just a German make of car {So could be a Mercedes} However Crimewatch BBC report which is newer clearly states that it is a BMW X5
3) <> Agreed that one could not imagine describing any of the mentioned Peugeots as 4×4’s. As you so rightly say they are popular in France and still believe SL saw a Peugeot at 16.15.

5-2-2013 at 02:10:42

@Lars /Maz/Oui/Baccus

Please find link below. This is pretty close to the route I did in 2005. Also note that this site and others would have quite possibly been viewed by keen cyclist SAH. Also note that the route from the D1508 is identical to the one that Alex took.

The Photos {click to enlarge} show clearly the gravel track and its condition and some of the views up in the alpine meadow
Also note that the guy makes a point of noting “accompanied by the noisy but scenic little Ire river” . He did this ride in September so think this supports my memory of a quite noisy and pleasant mountain stream.

5-2-2013 at 02:49:41

@Lynda 22:41:07

Thanks for the link to that photo; it is one I had not seen before.
The skid marks are from a rear wheel drive car that parked nose into the car park. The skid marks were caused when the car was put into reverse and the wheels spun as it was being reversed at high speed with the steering wheel turned to the right. The wheels have initially both spun then gained grip – where the first 2 tracks end – the 3rd track behind the left hand first set of tracks has been caused by the suspension on the right hand side of the car becoming loaded as it swings round to the right. With the right hand side of the cars suspension loaded the left hand side rear wheel has lost grip and skids again leaving the third skid mark. These tracks are consistent as having been made by the BMW. If you scribe the arc, you will end up where SAH’s BMW ended up.

5-2-2013 at 05:54:28

So how loud is that stream? Could it mask the sound of an approaching car?

5-2-2013 at 08:20:47


Have a nice commenting day.

5-2-2013 at 10:03:19


Some minor comments on your timeline (5-1-2013 at 23:13:06 )

1. Brett-Martin actually says in the interview “..I had seen a cyclist ahead of me a bit earlier..”. If we shall believe that, and since Mollier went faster on his bike, he must have seen Mollier as he (BM) approached Route du Moulin (or possibly some place earlier along Mollier’s path). My conclusion is then that Mollier arrived at the sign before Brett-Martin.
Comment: Yes I know, it says in many reports that BM was overtaken by a cyclist, but according to known sources, that is “creative writing”.

2. I believe that Brett-Martin’s arrival at Le Martinet in your timeline is a bit late (15:42-15:43), since we know that “Didierjean” made the call at 15:48


As Lynda says, according to witness, the MC was going towards Chevaline, not the other way.
« montait de la Savoie vers la Haute-Savoie » I interpret as “started (climbing) in Savoie (Jarsy) and went towards Haute Savoie (Chevaline)


No that hunting man is debunked, it is another S. Mollier

5-2-2013 at 10:05:39

I have long tried to resist that thought, but 1. in terms of sheer probabilities and 2. having come to appreciate the panache with which Eric Clouseau and his merry band have handled the case so far, I can no longer escape the conclusion that the dark 4×4, probably a BMW, that investigators are currently looking for most likely is Saad’s own BMW.

Seen from the distance in the shadows of the trees lining the Route Forestière, that burgundy colour would look quite darkish. Given that whoever saw this mystery car must have seen it from the front in order to know that it was RHD, it boils down to the visual similarity between the front of a BMW 525i Touring and that of a BMW X5-type-of-thang. I would say that the frontal aspects of those cars are sufficiently similar to confuse them, unless one is a BMW fanatic.

The alternative, both victims and killer(s) driving large, dark-coloured right-hand drive BMWs at the same time along the same isolated French country lane, is so unlikely as to be risible. Thus, that leaves us with a single vehicle unaccounted for, that motorcycle.

5-2-2013 at 10:10:40


“So how loud is that stream? Could it mask the sound of an approaching car?”

Since modern cars are so silent, and the Route Forestiere has so many bends, and the wind in the trees, and the sound from the stream, and so much vegetation, to hear a car approaching is probably very difficult.

5-2-2013 at 11:47:47

@Y 5-1-2013 at 15:47:32
“@Lars: the guy with the fastest time is a 40 year old cyclist living in Seattle… As to why someone who lives in Seattle may have been cycling up the Combe D’Ire…”

He was pedaling jewels! It’s a take-off on the strange story of an elderly couple from Seattle, the Mastros, driving car with US plates, who lived and were arrested at Lake Annecy. They allegedly absconded with jewels and sold them in Europe. It was discussed here before.

Slightly more on-topic, possibly related to SAH. Saudis allegedly gave identical info to UK and it included name of 3 Pakistanis. They ran web honey-pots to entrap potential jihadists. Could SAH have become entangled in this and rightly or wrongly put on someone’s watch list — or kill list? Time frame is 2012.

“Detectives are trying to trace a mystery man from Pakistan who is believed to have been in touch with Muslim dad-of-two Saad, 50, in recent months.”

5-2-2013 at 12:08:17

@ NR
Everybody is trying to entrap jihadists online. Even the guys in our local (paid for by UAE, with a UAE-trained and approved imam) mosque regularly track down jihadists and shop them to the authorities. Nobody hates jihadists more than regular muslims.

The question is just how “radical” SAH really was in his online utterings. Given the background to those allegations
I have my doubts. I don’t suppose there is much cash to be had for a story asserting that your deceased friend held fairly mainstream views 😉

5-2-2013 at 13:14:46

@FB, did Saad have a Twitter account, that he used in Arabic ?

Does Skyrock mean anything to you ?

5-2-2013 at 13:42:55

Saad never had a problem with my views ,,,
im a Pastafarian and my wife is a Christian .
he did not particularly like Saudis …he thought Osama Bin Ladan was a thug .

5-2-2013 at 13:58:00

dont know of any twitter accunt for Saad
i talked to Saad on MSN messenger
Skype (text only)
facebook (minimaly)
and freegle (freecycle as was)
sontheweb cammeljockey bignose were his names …if the boss doesnt mind me posting them

5-2-2013 at 14:18:50

@FB, you’ll have them all googling pastafarian !

5-2-2013 at 15:58:22

@Lynda Re: pastafarian

We are not stupid. I believe many of us have also visited Pastaistan. 🙂

5-2-2013 at 16:19:11

@NR on 5-2-2013 at 11:47:47

Not credible. Quotes from “unnamed” sources, is a conservative writer with sole goal to harm the Obama administration. The article is very poor journalism, full of speculation and hearsay. In public speaking, this reference tells a lot about him – Conservative Political Action Committee .

5-2-2013 at 16:44:42


Sunni fundamentalists: Saad “didn’t particularly like Saudis …he thought Osama Bin Ladan was a thug”.

Of course, the al-Hilli family in Iraq had a long history in the Shia religion – see my earlier posts. There is a mortal battle between the Sunni faith (Saudi Arabia, the land of the two shrines) and the Shia faithful in Karbala, Iraq and the Iran nation. That is what the sectarian violence is all about in today’s Iraq and the ugly Civil War in Syria. About Pakistan, there have been massive bombings of Shia communities killing hundreds.

I have not read about murders or assassinations between Sunni and Shia beyond their own territory. Both Sunni and Shia are pro-Palestinians and strive for East-Jerusalem as their capital city. The Wahhabists are extreme fundamental and see the Shia and Alawites (Assad) as infidels who are to be slaughtered as dogs. Just look at all the video’s placed on YouTube by the foreign fighters of the Al Nusra Front. Muslims killing other Muslims.

5-2-2013 at 16:54:38

Various journalist have asked me what brand of moslem Saad was
I still dont know because he did not like branding
he would feed me in ramadan and laughed when i pointed out what date it was
do we know what sect the cyclist and the french prosecutor are
or is it as with Saad a total irrelevance ?

5-2-2013 at 17:18:41

@ FB

Saad certainly doesn’t sound like a religious extremist to me – which is already evident from the fact that he befriended you, a pastafarian kufar.

However, a quick googling of the screen names you mentioned @ 5-2-2013 at 13:58:00 led me to a comment on a Hizbollah propaganda video on YouTube as one of the first hits. These people aren’t religious extremists either (the video even features skimpily-clad “Hizbollah babes”), at least not in any conventional sense of the word. However, this is not the sort of interest that ensures that one will continue to fly underneath the radar of intelligence agencies.

Wait a minute: Hizbollah – aren’t they the ones supposed to have ties to HSBC Geneva?
And where did Kadhim AH have that ominous account in Geneva? Wasn’t that with, er, HSBC?

5-2-2013 at 17:32:17


“.. fairly mainstream views”

When Bush and his allies go to war by bombing Baghdad, the mainstream views “they are patriots”. When a Palestinian attacks a settler living in an outpost in the West Bank (Judea and Samaria for the “other side”) the mainstream media calls it an act of terror.

Saad al-Hilli held a mainstream view about Israel, occupied land and Palestinians. For zealous American christians, his views would be seen as radical and equated to the jihadists. Bad, very bad. Problem for Saad is, by participating on forums you will be targeted by the “other side” and may even be detained, imprisoned or, worst case, murdered. A political murder committed in France where a western intelligence service is suspect, or a friendly nation, will not be investigated. Too many military contracts are dependent on keeping allies close as friends.


Remember, Saad and a friend Hussain from Canada used nicknames on Internet – husshilli and hillihuss. Reread my diary with comments @Booman, especially this translated article written in Arabic by “a friend”.

5-2-2013 at 17:41:32

@ Oui

I should like to clarify that. I don’t think that Saad’s *religious* views could have been extremist. Otherwise, he would not have behaved as FB described it, and as we know from other sources that he did.

Rather, I suspect that he held *political views* that might have landed him in hot water.

5-2-2013 at 18:03:28

They are not even classified as a terrorist organization in most of Europe

… and I bet they have an office in Geneva 😀

5-2-2013 at 19:05:26


I don’t mind you coming out as a delegate of fsm. 😉

This clarifies you are not interested in the Islamic sect of your friend SAH. Just tell us you will not discuss his religious beliefs. That’s fine with us.

For me it is of the utmost importance … he and his family was butchered @Chevaline. With Islam, political views often comes forth from the sect of Islam as I stated above (read through some links). There is a mortal battle raging in the Arab Spring, Pakistan, Persian Gulf states, Saudi Arabia with support of Western powers vs. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.

I was likely the first blogger who immediately saw the misinformation written about Saddam’s millions linked to Kadhim’s Geneva account. The intelligence sources were bogus, very similar to Curveball and the German BND “intelligence” about Saddam’s wmd to start the Iraq war.

The al-Hilli ancestry is founded in Iraq’s Shia holy places. I have written extensively about their history. Simply look at the mosque where the services for burial were held:

Family’s grief as Alps murder victims are finally buried side-by-side seven weeks after their murders

In a simple but emotionally-charged Muslim ceremony, design engineer Saad Al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, and her 74-year-old mother Suhaila Al-Allaf, were laid to rest in the same grave, in a private cemetery secluded by pine trees, in the rain-sodden Surrey countryside.

Yesterday’s traditional ceremony, arranged by the Iraqi embassy in London, began with a special prayer service attended by dozens of mourners at the Imam Khoei Mosque in Queen’s Park, north-west London.

Iraqi-born Mr Al-Hilli’s brother Zaid, 53, took up a shovel to help cover their remains. Surrey detectives, who are working with French police, watched the proceedings from a discreet distance.

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Abulqasim Musawi Al-Khoei

Imam Al-Khoei was a man of peace dialogue and understanding. He advocated non-violence and promoted tolerance,the values which mirror the human and universal principles of Islam.

5-2-2013 at 19:20:27

@Marilyn & perhaps Oui

I think it is irrelevant here, but since I have been advocating against disinformation above, I would like to stress that the “religion” that FB mentions above indeed has a very serious background (and I am not joking).

Not everything is what it seems at first glance.

5-2-2013 at 19:36:02

I guess we will never hear the police mention these white/grey/green cars again, now that they have fulfilled their function. Perhaps they will be forced to say that the call gave no clues.

Probably most of the tips will be of the type: “Yes, I believe my neighbour has just that kind of car. He is an evil (but not fat 🙂 ) bastard, who always complains about my garden. I can’t remember seeing him in the beginning of September last year, so he was probably in France, killing somebody. I would be happy if you guys arrested him immediately.”

5-2-2013 at 19:42:04

@Lars 5-2-2013 at 10:03:19

Hi Lars …..Thanks for your comments …I would value your thoughts on this. Please see my further comments below.

1) Agreed there has been lots of creative writing in the press etc.

However I believed that one thing that seems to be consistent was the time that BM arrived at Martinet car park 15:43. In my analysis I have back calculated the time that BM would have been at the sign which gives me 15:19.

With SM we know only that at 15:30 he was shot at Martinet. So again if you back calculate the time to the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire you get him there at 15:18 / 15:19. I agree that the point at which BM saw SM is unknown, it could also have even been in Arnand at 15:15/15:16. All this would mean is that SM could have arrived at Martinet car park earlier than 15:30.

I also think that I cyclists mind the climb starts in Arnand /Chevaline {the point at which civilisation ends/ last houses} and BM in his interview talks about the time to get to Martinet from Chevaline.

2) See 1) above.
I note your concern about 15:42/43 being a bit late, I initially had the same concern.

To test what could be achieved in the time, 5/6 mins, armed with a stopwatch, I went through the scenario. You should try this, what it demonstrated to me is that there was enough time for BM to do what he said he did at the scene, jump on his bike meet PDJ, return with PDJ and for PDJ to phone at 15:48.

3) Motorcycle{MC #1}
Thank your for your translation. I could only find that article last night. I need to find the others as I have read {I hope I saved them!} . Dennis Janins quote needs to be read with that of his wife and that yes MC # 1 did come from Jarsy, but it also returned to Jarsy at 16:00.
. « Mon mari a juste vu une moto. Il en passe de temps en temps. Le pilote s’est même arrêté pour laisser passer le troupeau. Il n’avait pas l’air pressé », confie Catherine Jeanin.

4) SM
Not sure about your reply? Do you, like me, have doubts about the photos of SM, member of the Archery {Bow & Arrow} hunting club, are the the same person as SM the cyclist?

5-2-2013 at 19:50:58

@Schistophrenic 5-2-2013 at 05:54:28

Lets put it this way, on a bike you would see the car before you heard it!
For my own safety I rode up there on the outside of every bend so I could see the maximum distance up the road.

5-2-2013 at 19:54:42


4) SM is definitely not the archer. We have covered this topic to exhaustion. Did find picture of his son and possible look-alike dad in a newsreport photo of a meeting in Ugine. Eons ago …

The British newspaper who published this picture took it down within one or two hours as I recall. On the blogs, this has an everlasting footprint.

5-2-2013 at 20:04:25

Hello Cee-Bee!

I like that you are doing little experiments! If you have followed this blog you may have noticed that I also like to do small experiments.

As said those were minor comments to your timeline, which you have calculated, I believe, more strictly than any of us earlier.

I think that you can only move BM and SM a minute back and forth and it would also fit what BM (probably) meant.

I just thought you made BM unnecessary slow, we had a huge debate about this earlier, he was after all a triathlon cyclist. I believe (and have made a small experiment) that he could do that strech in say 20 minutes, giving him a couple of minutes more to stumble around the crime scene, destroying evidence.

But as said these are minor comments, your version could be correct.

Motorcycle: I have to read the articles again, and will comment then. I can’t recall reading that they saw the MC twice.

The other Sylvain Mollier: No, I don’t have doubts, I am sure. That man, with the same name, is living (literally) in another part of France and has nothing to do with this case.

./. Lars

5-2-2013 at 20:07:54

@Lars @FB

Rastafarians regard Haile Selassie I as God because Marcus Garvey’s prophecy – “Look to Africa where a black king shall be crowned, he shall be the Redeemer” – was swiftly followed by the ascension of Haile Selassie as Emperor of Ethiopia.

One could also find its roots in the Caribbean. This person was my favorite black god. 🙂

5-2-2013 at 20:10:40

I remember the funeral well
in Saads memory i swapped some shoes round in the lobby to see what would happen !
and by the time i had finished getting past the Daily Fail photographer at the burial i missed the internment …some of the security doubted that i should have been there 🙁
The bodies were washed at the graveside ..
thus getting round the 24 hour rule
same as happened when Saad brought his dad back from Spain …and all the offices were shut in August so he had to wait until September
Never die in August said Saad !

5-2-2013 at 20:12:54

Sorry for misspelling your signature See_Bee (I guessed it was CB like Bee Gees 🙂 )

I should have added above, that we of course don’t know if the shooting started at exactly 15:28, 15:30 or 15:32, so we could always “tweak” our timings as we like.

In the discussion it often practical to set our clock’s at 15:30 when the shooting began, as a matter of convenience.

5-2-2013 at 20:14:03
5-2-2013 at 20:51:30


I’m glad one can be lighthearted and not always be dead serious. My first thought of a fsm delegate was correct. My, oh my. 🙂

Much better than being seriously dead!

5-2-2013 at 20:55:33

When I came up with my “Money Man in Geneva” scenario, I was thinking of Hezbollah, but didn’t want to commit myself to that option, because I didn’t know enough about them.

Having done some background reading, they fit the bill perfectly: a Shia organization, fairly moderate on the religious front, semi-legal in most of the world, certainly represented in that city of international organizations, Geneva. The fact that @ FB has given us a tiny clue indicating that SAH was sympathetic to that organization was an unexpected bonus.

I am now more convinced than ever than father and son AH were associated with Hezbollah, that this led to SAH being watched by the police in Claygate, that this caused Swiss PTSS to monitor Saad’s communications with the Hez representative in Geneva, that this association ultimately led to the murders (with SM really being a random bystander), and that the man arrested and recently released in Geneva was the local Hez representative.

Those circumstances explain why the identity of the mystery man arrested and released in Geneva has not even been hinted at in the media (an unprecedented occurrence), why reporting restrictions appear to have been imposed upon the trial of that Nigerian scammer David John Abiodun, why Zainab and Zeena are virtually being treated as prisoners, why Zaid AH has an armed-response team on call, why the gendarmes didn’t touch Saad’s BMW for eight hours, why intelligence types are rumoured to have been flown in to the scene of the crime right away, why the Mollier and Schutz families have untertaken a “vow of silence”, why Eric Clouseau said from the start that this case might never be solved – it all fits perfectly.

Now is the time for some nuts-and-bolts research: Who is the Hezbollah representative in Geneva, is he still in-country, and does he own a light-coloured motorcycle?

5-2-2013 at 21:20:24


Your 2013/05/02 at 8.55 P.M. is great. It is a comment like this that adds to making this blog interesting for me. This and all the great comments of our other commentators also. And I am sure that those who visit us and come back again and again agree with me. People like See_Bee who finally decided to comment too and has now become a valuable member of our blog.

Peter, what made you decide to stick your head out and name those who you think have a connection to this crime?

What you’ve written in the comment makes so sense. I too believe that there is much more going on here than a domestic drama (crime of passion) and that this explains the silence around it. That Mr Nigerian John’s trial did not take place as scheduled and that he probably still sits in jail is to me proof that his misdemeanour is much more serious than we’ve been made to believe at the time of his arrest.

I will be off serial killing early tonight: have guests coming for dinner.

Tomorrow is another day.

5-2-2013 at 21:23:29

@Peter, can I have a glass of that Blue Nun !

@See Bee, ‘he took his time’, very different to your interpretation.

5-2-2013 at 21:24:05

@Oui 5-2-2013 at 19:54:42

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction

5-2-2013 at 21:28:50

@Peter, can I have a glass of that Blue Nun ?

This could be something of nothing and I apoligise in advance if it causes a problem, who is this ?

FB will know why I’m posting it.

5-2-2013 at 21:38:01

Seen this photo before, You are my inspiration:

It is probably nothing more than a coincidence, the photo is used often, very cute.

5-2-2013 at 21:41:49


the name is the right spelling sa3d07

truth is very important

5-2-2013 at 21:46:47

internet presence
since you are all finding the stuff that the French cant gain access to !
saads tiscali account is suspended
as is his yahoo and hotmail
not sos sure about his gmail tho

5-2-2013 at 21:50:45

@FB, you obviously weren’t friends at the time, based upon Zainabs age, when did Saad meet Iqbal ?

Gary Aked sold story to the Mirror presents a different side to Saad, you’ve already said that you’d never met, if Aked is telling the truth, then he must have been party to those chatrooms, how else woudl he know of Saads supposed ‘rants’.

To be honest I asked whether Saad was partial to a drink, how many of us have gone onto the internet and posted things we would regret later, hey FB?

5-2-2013 at 22:08:28

The welcome return of Alexander Cartier (and others)

I have to take in and read/see all comments/video’s from 29.4 to now. I did a quick glance. Without checking all comments I will bluntly propose my current double layered ‘solution’ (and couble check against the latest comments):

M is key

The 2007 killing of Ml was the first ‘perfect crime’ to help out M
The 2012 killing of SM was a ‘return favor’ repacked in a now perfected ‘perfect crime’ … the ‘mask’ crime

What can be done one time can be done twice. Both ‘excessive, no clue’ crimes. In 2007 the ‘masking’ was performed in a blunt way (the ridiculous letter, the 18 stabs) … but how elegant has X setup the ‘mask’ crime in 2012. A near perfect affair, luring a complete UK/Iraqi disposable family to Martinet to ‘mask’ the real target SM.

Of course the is a wall of silence. Even a ‘vow of silence’. But it can’t hide the pattern. The pattern is obvious.

What is the chance a person very close to you is killed in an ‘excessive, no clue, media catchy’ murdercase. Now, what is the chance it happens again?

X has to be calculating, cold blooded and arrogant to be able to pull this off.

5-2-2013 at 22:12:19


Perhaps you should see if that Hezbollah-thingy also got a chapter in Chevaline or Le Martinet? 😉

5-2-2013 at 22:12:49

Saad never drank booze
tho he did not object to others drinking
I think Saad met Ikbal in Dubai
I asked him once why he married an Iraqi rather than another gene pool
..Mrs Bastard is NOT British 🙂
I think he thought that it would be what his Mother would have wanted
grandchildren who looked like her 🙂
The Zs are very beautiful
as for “rants” it depends on your point of view
Gary must be quite tall as the shed building needed tall people to put up the plasterboard on the ceiling 😉

5-2-2013 at 22:16:47

My point about the sound (noticing the rushing water sound on
Alexander’s nice video), is this. Could the killer, targeting SM, be
so focused on him that he(or she) did not at first notice SAH
and his vehicle when he attacked SM. Remember that SM is
reported to be the first one shot and was shot the most times.
I lean towards a male killer for the reasons Marilyn points out,
but I keep hearing the phrase, there is no wrath like that of a woman
scorned. A woman could be dressed as a man (the little girl reported
one bad man, didn’t she?) or have on a motorcycle helmet.
If you were lying in wait for SM to come up the hill, where would you position yourself, knowing that he will have to stop at the barricade?
Probably just beyond the barricade?

5-2-2013 at 22:17:22

Max/M/X – Just so ‘elegant’ !

Do you know the best lies are the ones that are as close to the truth as possible and to choose an alias is best to pick one as near to your real name.

Of course you do.

5-2-2013 at 22:35:59


I have been going through the articles about the MC at Col de Cherel again. I believe they only saw the Mc once (I agree also with what Lynda writes above), going in the direction towards Chevaline.

This whole Mc business is a bit strange to me. The time doesn’t fit very well. To a local journalist M. Janin said at first I quote “Denis Janin, le berger, n’a pas vu l’ombre d’un véhicule à moteur, à deux ou quatre roues, ce mercredi 5 septembre depuis son chalet isolé au col de Chérel”

Since I believe this journalist to be working from Grenoble it is strange that he misunderstood M. Janin so comletely.

However there is a “funny” video interview with M. Janin somewhere (I am sorry but I lost the link). I understand French pretty well, both reading and listening (speak and write the language I haven’t done for many years). However I barely understand a word of what M. Janin says! He speaks a very broad Savoian dialect. I hope M. Janin will forgive me for writing this, but it is perhaps understandable if even a French journalist has difficulties in understanding what he says.

5-2-2013 at 22:37:20

@Lars 5-2-2013 at 20:04:25

Hi Lars
1) Yes, like you, I like to run my little experiments and in this case I felt it was a good idea to try and see if it was possible to get all the actions done within the time to either support BM statements or to raise further questions. In this case my experiment showed me that BM would have had time to do what he said he did and for the call to the emergency services to have taken place at 15:48.

I agree with you that the times could move a minute back and forth based on their actual speeds{which we don’t know}.
To illustrate my thinking using my experience of my ride up there on my mountain bike.

I had set out a schedual {Which I still have on my computer in excel} to do the 63km ride and worked out “target times” to get to various points on the route and allowed some time check out where the “Reserve Naturel le Marais du Bout du Lac d’Annecy”.

My target time at the sign was 36mins and at Martinet 60mins {I had worked on a 5mph/ 66 minutes steady climb to Col de Cherel well beyond {9kms/6 miles} the Martinet car park }.

From where I parked near the Europa Campsite just to the East of St Joriz, to the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire was via 12km/7.5miles but I had also gone over to “Reserve Naturel le Marais du Bout du Lac d’Annecy so had covered another 4kms. I covered this 16km in 38 mins. {so this is an average of 15kmh/24kmh}, my target was 36mins so I was 2mins down.

I managed to go up to Martinet in 20mins, so 3kms/1.9miles at an average of 6 to 7mph. I was behind my target time when I got to the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire by a couple of minutes so pushed up Col d’Ire at a steady, but not break neck speed, reaching Martinet 2mins ahead of my schedule.

So lets now consider BM, he had been out on his since 14.30 so had been riding for circa 50mins and was 53years old. I would have said that the steady 5mph climb was about right, especially if he intended to go on up to Col de Cherel i.e.+9kms from 470m at the sign to 1500m a 1030m in 12km climb taking circa 1h:30mins from the sign.

So Lars, that was my thinking, yes I obviously agree with you that you could place BM at Martinet before 15:43 if you assume a faster ride/climb up Col de Cherel.

2) Motorcycle …looks like we are both trying to cross reference the motorcycles tonight …….the press reporting is really bad on this point.

3) Agreed: Robin Hood is not SM

5-2-2013 at 22:40:28

@FB, you already told me that he didn’t drink, it was the reason I posed the question way back, we all know from the old photo that Gary is tall!

But his testimony seems to betray his ‘old’ friend – giving many thoughts that Saad had incurred wrath due to his rants.

Now you like to poke fun at the media and conspiracy theorists, Gary Aked stoked this fire, and Saad met his end beside the IRE ! Even Schistophrenic has unwittingly made reference.

Excuse my insensitivity.

Yes, FB, I realise that your current wife is not British, what attracted her to a Fat Bastard ? I’m a brit so you know this is humour! Remember Mrs Mertons question to Debbie about Paul Daniels ? Been used over and over again in all sorts of cicumstances !

5-2-2013 at 22:49:49

Lynda – 5-2-2013 at 21:23:29

Are you referring to BM between 1543 and 1548 ?

5-2-2013 at 22:51:54

when Mrs B met me i was much thinner !
but i think it was the blonde hair and blue eyes she likes .

One of the first questions i remember being asked ouside Saads house by the press pack was
“did Saad boycott the royal street party ”
I thought it odd at the time
but I guess someone had seen his online chats by then (i think it was the thursday )

5-2-2013 at 22:55:50

Hi Lars
You can call me what you like !! I have been called a lot of things in my life!

1) Absoloutly correct, we do not know the exact time. However I agree with you that if we did it would only move the timeline + or – 2mins at the most. I agree using the consensus 15:30 is sensible at the moment.

5-2-2013 at 23:05:01

I am also blond and have blue eyes.

That was a winning concept also among English girls when I was young. 🙂

5-2-2013 at 23:05:10

@FB, isn’t it so silly, there are many in the UK that would like to get rid of the monarchy, mostly white British born ! Personally I am not in awe of them but I’d prefer that they remain there, I wouldn’t want to see an elected President, our Queen has given a certain level of stability and without giving a great speech about the whys and wherefores, I hope to live long enough to see Charles crowned King. The last time I indulged in a royal street party was when he was at his investiture as Prince of Wales, would that be 1969 ?

@See Bee – not BM but the motorbiker on the Col, he took his time, as quoted by Janin.

5-2-2013 at 23:18:05


Kick Me: European Union Backs Iran’s Hezbollah

France is one of the countries that oppose the efforts to blacklist Hezbollah. France, the former colonial power in Lebanon, wants to preserve its diplomatic influence in that country. In 2011, Najib Mikati, a Hezbollah-backed politician, became Prime Minister of Lebanon after Hezbollah toppled the previous government. Even deadly attacks by Hezbollah on French nationals have not persuaded the French government to designate the group as terrorist. Last year, Alain Juppé, the then Foreign Minister of France, accused Hezbollah of attacking French U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon. However, with Hezbollah constituting part of the Lebanese establishment, the French are reluctant to act against it.

The German government, too, refuses to draw the obvious conclusion regarding Hezbollah, although the German domestic intelligence agency, the Bundesverfassungsschutz, has warned that Hezbollah has over 900 active members in Germany.

US seizes $150 million in Hezbollah laundering probe at Beirut-based Lebanese Canadian Bank

Switzerland chooses dialogue over sanctions and isolation

Calmy-Rey told more than 170 Swiss ambassadors and consular officials meeting this week in Bern that she always favoured dialogue over sanctions and isolation. Switzerland does not have any list of banned organisations to which it will not talk, unlike other countries.

“We talked to Hamas and Hezbollah and other Islamist organisations, we talked to the most diverse groups in Kosovo, because they clearly expressed the legitimate interests of the population.”

Swiss authorities arrest Mossad agent, allege attempt to bug residence in Bern (1998)

5-2-2013 at 23:20:37

@ Lars 5-2-2013 at 22:35:59

Lars, like you I am also spending time digging over MC #1 tonight and am sure your French is much better than mine!

I think your insight/ revalation of the video where Dennis Janin speaks in a heavy Savoie dialect is interesting. The reporting is so, so bad on this and this may well explain why!

Lars, what do you understand by this Cathrine Janin statement?
« Mon mari a juste vu une moto. Il en passe de temps en temps. Le pilote s’est même arrêté pour laisser passer le troupeau. Il n’avait pas l’air pressé »

I understand what you say about the motorcycle {MC #1}, at the moment I have it in my timeline going up and back to Jarsy.

5-2-2013 at 23:26:09

@See Bee, as I said :

“My husband saw a motorbike, it took its time, the rider stopped to let the herd pass. He didn’t seem to be in a hurry”.

5-2-2013 at 23:33:27


See Lynda’s translation at 23:26:09. I have nothing to add (I always listen to her 😉 )

5-2-2013 at 23:35:12

oops …

Today this blog looks like a C.Murray’s blog.

see you tomorrow.

5-2-2013 at 23:36:36

Elhanan Tennenbaum, the Israeli businessman who was kidnapped in Switzerland by Hizbullah in 2000, appeared before a court in Tel Aviv to explain the circumstances that led to his kidnapping.

Upon his release from Hizbullah captivity in 2004 Tannenbaum requested the State grants him immunity from having to give details of dodgy business dealings that led to his kidnapping in Dubai?? by Hizbullah operatives, but the State turned down his request.

5-2-2013 at 23:40:45

oh Lars, x ! I’m off too, wondering what has happened in the UK council elections, Sky News or Question Time awaits.

Fed up of the Hollande fiasco being played out French TV everyday, what the heck has happened to conviction politics, no matter what politics they are ?

Lyndon !

5-2-2013 at 23:43:25

@Alex 5-1-2013 at 09:04:37

Hi Alex – sorry I missed your post


Yes Alex I do agree with you.

If ONF were in the area they could have gone up Combe d’Ire and turned left here. It leads up to forest tracks that the ONF would use on a regular basis maintaining the forest.

They could have left via one of these tracks back to Arnand, Gone by the forest tracks to Col de Cherel or returned back down Combe d’Ire. They would not have gone past Martinet car park unless they continued all the way up Combed’Ire.

If they {ONF}went back down Combe d’Ire, and they were NOT the 4×4 seen by BM, they would have had to have been back at the sign before 15:19 or left after BM had passed that turn off at circa 15:37

5-3-2013 at 00:07:17

Retracing some steps and the wall of silence in the Savoie …

This was part of a previous comment:

Ces parcelles accueillent une bonne population de petits et grands cervidés, laquelle, pour l’instant ne met pas en péril l’équilibre sylvo-cynégétique. Cédric Féchoz, technicien au CRPF (centre régional de la propriété forestière) et Jacky Dursent, vice-président de l’ACCA ont participé à cette sortie très enrichissante, grâce à la volonté commune de toutes les structures concernées.

Trois experts de l’AFMT (association française de mensurations de trophées) au sein de l’Association Nationale des Chasseurs de Grand Gibier, Marcel Bouvier, François Bovagne et Roger Janin ont coté le chevreuil prélevé par Jean-Philippe Hérisson, en chasse d’été sur la commune de Saint-Jorioz le 15 août 2012.

One of the experts in hunting is Roger Janin.

I had found an earlier cached webpage where it was mentioned Denis Janin had a brother named Roger.

Chalet d’alpage de Denis Janin

Le groupe de papy a rendu visite au chalet d’alpage de Denis Janin. La semaine suivante nous avons fait connaissance du fils de Dominique Duperrier qui retappe le vieux chalet des frères Janin ( Pierre, Roger et Louis) entre deux fournées de pain bio à Ecole.

Activité gratuite : Sortie Chamois dans la réserve des Bauges (lundi 10 juillet 2006)

A wall of silence, how credible are Mr. and Mrs. Janin by pointing north, the motorcyclist went up towards Martinet? We all know, the MC was not seen by the gendarmerie at the place where the killings took place. Isn’t that somewhat puzzling …

5-3-2013 at 00:23:28

First thoughts on the AC vid (congrats btw, I’ve seldom seen so much ‘dedication’ in my life;):

1. BM sees 4×4, ONF did NOT see biker

= 4×4 is NOT ONF, because it is impossible to ‘miss’ seeing a biker on that route. Q: Does this 4×4 exists? (or just an BM ‘invention’) Because than we have 4×4 and MC as possible X’s (as seen by BM)

2. The route taken by AC to Martinet can NOT be the (direct) AH route, because it does not pass the 15.15 pictures

3. PD talks about 10 minutes driving while AC manages sign-Martinet in 5-6 minutes. PD prolly means Ch.-Martinet. The timeline has to be adjusted to AC findings

4. the 5-6 minutes drive relaxes the timeline for escape of X unseen by PD (if X took that route, that is … BM again??)

5. … the BIG ONE … what the F…. was AH doing up there????

= In my view, AH went up there, hit the barrier, parked to the side, got out with Zainab and ….. waited??? (with the women still strapped inside) … they WAITED for someone to open the barrier

Q: Does FB and others still think AH was ‘checking out a nice bike route’??

6. SM had Martinet as destiantion, this ‘was lost’ is BS. And CS going to Ch/Doussard to ‘look for’ SM confirms this.

The vid does not take away any of my current solution ‘SM=target, AH=mask’ … it even strengthens the theory also by the words of AC himself

‘Saad knew how to find the road or somebody had to told him.’

— Max

5-3-2013 at 00:32:08

@Peter 5-2-2013 at 20:55:33

I read with some interest your analysis/scenario surrounding the money in Genève. I agree with you that it is highly probable that this deposit is dirty money. I know, and support your view, that the banks and particularly their wealth management teams for high net worth individuals, would not have been happy with the money sitting dormant in a current account.

Likewise given that it was dormant, there must have been other assets associated with the account that were earning for the bank. As you will be well aware a wealth management team will have assigned a group/team which will have included at least one person to manage the funds, i.e. to allocate how the cash in the portfolio is invested in shares and other funds based on the risk profile the client would have agreed to.

It would not be unusual for a large net worth individual to have 10% of investments with the bank cash depending on the markets{world stock markets/gold etc }. So if this were the case with this account then there could be a large value in other assets {Shares/Gold/Derivatives etc}within the clients total portfolio. So an amount as large as up to 100m $US would not be unreasonable to assume.

However as you so rightly stated it could be a deal HSBC {don’t ever ask me about HSBC as I would not be complimentary of them!} have done based on their Iraqi interests, however I assume that they would be charging an annual fee against the deposit, and not being an interest bearing account would/could account for its reduction in value annually. This may go some way to explain why the 1m is being reported as 830k by some. I had also heard many years ago {2000/2005} of there being people managing illegitimate Iraqi money in Geneva.

Would it be possible, due to religious, reasons, for H@$* bank to open an account that was non-interest bearing and that did not attract an annual fee. What would be a banks interest, why would they agree to such an account etc.

FB {I love that nickname!} and his clue that SAH was sympathetic to Hezbollah does lead one off in a number of directions! Would you like to share some of the background reading links?

Also, I think it was mentioned here, does Hicheur case have any bearing here? I have not read deep enough to comment fully, other than to say that the background of Hicheur and SAH has interested me enough to start digging deeper and would be interested in you view..

5-3-2013 at 01:38:13

@Lynda5-2-2013 at 23:26:09

Hi Lynda
Thanks you very much for clarifying that for me….sorry I did not see your previous post

5-3-2013 at 04:10:45

Hi Marilyn

just for your infomation – Having problems posting between 02:45/03:05 GMT

5-3-2013 at 04:13:16

@Oui5-3-2013 at 00:07:17

You have been busy tonight, nice work finding this background information.

1) The Family Janin are certainly active in the local community. Find below a link to local hotel offering Excursions to walk at Chez Janin at Col de Cherel – with the exact address I should be able to locate their house/Chalet precisely on the map!

There are some nice photos of the area around Chez Janin and Col de Cherel for those who want a better feel for what is up there in the alpine meadows.

2) <>
I believe that you are very observant Oui . This is why I believe that the MC#1 was on its way back when Janin saw it. As you so correctly say – had it carried on it would have bumped into quite a few of the “actors”.

Also the bike is described by Denis Janin as “c’était une grosse moto de route et son pilote n’était pas très sûr de lui car on le voyait souvent mettre pied à terre. Son engin n’était pas adapté à cette route, dégradée à cet endroit. Il y avait des sacoches accrochées de chaque côté.

My translation of this would be

“it was a big road motorcycle and its rider was not very sure of himself because we often saw him put a foot to the ground. His motorcycle was not made for this road, gravel/rough around here. There were saddlebags/pannier bags hung on each side”.

So adding to your observation, we have a road type motorcycle going along the gravel track at Col de Cherel with panniers – probably like this type a BMW R1200 GS or BMW R1200 GS Adventure.

This also eliminates a trail type motorcycle and also says that Melvin on his small 125cc trail bike {MC#3} was not in this area {I believe that he was on the East side of Combe d’Ire on the forest track.

This motorcycle {MC#1} I believe had come up from Jarsy was seen by the Janin’s going to Martinet and was seen by them returning to Jarsy. It certainly would not of got far off the Jarsy Chevaline route.

5-3-2013 at 04:20:51

@Oui5-3-2013 at 00:07:17

Having posted to you I went away and thought this through a bit more …..

Following on from my previous post to you.

So you have to ask:-

a)Why a “large road type motorcycle with pannier bags was on that road up to Col de Cherelat that time.

If it was going to Chevaline it did not arrive there or it would have met the “traffic jam” on that road coming up from Chevaline from15:19 on until just after 16.00 when the road was closed at the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire

b) If there are any motorbike riders reading, ask yourself this, You leave Jarsy on the road when you got to the gravel track after 3km/1.9miles why do you continue? Its Easy to go back and ride around to Doussard isn’t it?

c) Ok you want to try a bit so you go on, its 4kms / 2.5miles to Col de Cherel. Ok so now you are shaken about a bit so keep going another almost 5km/3.1miles until you get to the paved/tarmac road. Phew ……so after getting the worst part of the trip over why not carry on to Martinet car park and down to Chevaline/Arnand.

Ok – Another penny has just droped {thank you Lynda}– an alternative scenario for Janin to have seen the bike at circa 16:00 going from the Haute Savoie to the Savoie {“cette moto qui, selon lui, « montait de la Savoie vers la Haute-Savoie “}. I have now put this into my spreadsheet tonight and checked the timings and it appears to be possible.

The Large road bike {MC#1} enters via Chevaline /Arnand and goes up the Combe d’Ire before 15.19 {The time BM was at the sign}, in this case BM does not see the bike go up, so it could have gone up right behind SAH or gone up before him.

So it is possible that it was at the Martinet car park at or before 15:24/25 without BM seeing it. It would take 9km/ 5.6miles to Col de Cherel at 20mph on the paved and 10mph on the gravel track}

it would have taken 25mins to reach Col de Cherel and Chez Janin arriving at 15:50. So MC #1 could have been stopped for 10 minuets + if Denis Janin is right with his 16:00 observation note this is the latest assuming it followed SAH up. If it went up before then it would have reached Chez Janin before this time.

So in this Senario we have SAH / MC#1 / MC#2 and a 4×4 “technicolour”{4X4 #1} going up Combe d’Ire at or before 15:19 followed by BM and SM soon after and then PDJ+2 at 15:39 – We also have a ONF 4X4 {4X4 #2} and Melvin on his 125 trail bike off to the eastern side of the valley.

BM sees the a 4×4 “technicolour”{4X4 #1} followed by MC #2 coming back down Combe d’Ire and MC #1 continues on up to Col de Cherel {Chez Janin} before descending to Jarsy.

Phew …. a busy Wednesday afternoon along the Combe d’Ire.

This Senario does not change my view of “the how” – What do you think?

5-3-2013 at 08:40:49

Good morning!

You’ve been busy during the night as I can see while I was enjoying a good serial killing.

Bacchus has gone off in a huff saying we are looking/sounding like Craig Murray.

Blond hair … blue eyes … one can have any colour hair these days thanks to L’Oreal (see Francois Hollande!) and any colour eyes thanks to lenses.

Speak later.

5-3-2013 at 08:53:43

@Max: 5. … the BIG ONE … what the F…. was AH doing up there????

Consider that SAH was on holiday and actually sightseeing, driving around with his family to see the scenery and perhaps looking to take one of those hiking trails. If you look at it from this point of view, then the situation is an ambush of SM by someone who has prior knowledge of his route and prior knowledge of the barricade.

It is SAH in my opinion, who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, not SM.

Excerpt from Zak Martin’s post:
“This tells us, beyond any doubt, that the professional killers were not contracted to murder the al-Hilli family. Why? Because if they had been hired to kill the entire family, they would have made sure to kill the 4 year-old, Zena (and they would certainly have been aware of her existence). And if they had been instructed to murder only the adults, they would not have shot Zainab.
Therefore they cannot have been professional contract killers.
Incidentally, this thing about killers shooting witnesses because they would be able to identify them is largely unfounded, and therefore possibly a “red herring”. When professional killers want to avoid being identified, they wear a simple disguise – a baseball cap and a pair of sunglasses is enough. Or, if they have an escape route, they wear skbalaclavas or ski masks.
Israeli Mossad agents wore elaborate disguises to carry out an “extrajudicial killing” in Dubai because they knew they would be captured on CCTV. But in general professional assassins don’t even bother to disguise themselves because they know that the chances of being identified from a photofit description are remote. And in the case of state sponsored assassins, they know they will be hundreds or thousands of miles away by the time the police start looking for them. Their faces are not going to be found in police mugshot galleries anyway.
The only time killers murder witnesses is when they are already known to those witnesses, or when they live locally and have distinctive physical characteristics that would identify them to the police. A killer with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, for instance, would certainly want to eliminate witnesses. In general, however, professional assassins are not concerned about witnesses.”

If ZM is right about the killer not being a professional hired to kill the
SAH family, then
1. it is a professional killer hired to kill SM or
2. it is not a professional killer who is targeting SM.

One reason the killer might not wear a disguise is if this is a crime of passion, and the killer wants SM to know who he/she is.

Did SM reach the barricade, was confronted and shot and then ran back from it to where SAH was?

5-3-2013 at 09:31:13


A small correction to Nr 2 (5-3-2013 at 00:23:28). Alex took the direct route, Al-Hilli didn’t. Alex came straight from Route d’Annecy to Route de Chevaline, Al-Hilli was in Doussard/Arnand and could have choosen the direct way through Route du Moulin but didn’t. I guess he took Route des Fontaines to reach Route de Chevaline, but there are alternatives. Then they both followed the same route.

5-3-2013 at 09:37:09

Does anyone know (Max?, Bacchus?) the name of the policeman, who sent the anonymous letters in the Christian Maréchal case?

I hope it wasn’t Jean-Pierre Maire in any case. 🙂

5-3-2013 at 09:50:43


You have told us about the secrecy used by the French police when investigating murders. I must admit that I wasn’t aware of, that the French police worked in that way. (and as you know I am critical)

However when I read about the Christian Maréchal case, it is very different. It seems more like the murder investigations that I am used to. People involved are interviewed, using their real name, and they speculate about what can have happened, and you can find a lot of facts around this murder.

Why do you believe that these two investigations are so different? Is it because the persons involved in the Christian Maréchal murder are politicians and policemen and they do not give a toss about what some prosecutor or investigating policemen say, if they want to talk they talk?
Or do you see some other reasons?

5-3-2013 at 10:27:52


Both working same topic … 😉

Information in a timeline …
Tuerie de Chevaline : les obsèques du cycliste savoyard, Sylvain Mollier, ont eu lieu

Claire Schutz uncle Pierre Morange wall of silence savoyard

Uncle of Claire Schutz advising family to remain silent

The Schutz family, who now refuse to speak about the murders, have been receiving advice from Pierre Morange, the brother of Geneviève Schutz-Morange. A political ally of Nicolas Sarkozy, the former French president, he is the MP and town mayor for Chambourcy, near Paris.

Morange found himself drawn into another high-profile murder case five years ago when Christian Marechal, the chief of police in Chambourcy, was found stabbed to death at his home. The murder came shortly after both men had been accused of corruption, allegations they both denied.

A year later, Morange, who said he feared for his life after Marechal’s murder, was granted a special permit to carry a handgun. Mr Morange declined to comment on the latest killings.

Thierry’s Pharmacy was named “Schutz Morange“. (cached page WaybackMachine)

Philippe Brett, a former commando and mercenary in Iraq, was involved with Pierre Morange with a possible link to the Marechal killing.

Dubious plan to free French hostages snags Chirac in fiasco
“L’équipée Julia” était couverte par l’Elysée

5-3-2013 at 10:45:22

@Lars (and AC),

The point is that it seems that AH did NOT go directly to Martinet.

But he DID manage to get from 1515 picture to +/- 15.30 Martinet, just in time to get shot.

AC’s video shows that it takes 10 minutes to go from 1515 pictures to Martinet. ADD to this the fact that ‘masons’ say AH was not in a hurry and add to this the boarding BMW time etc. And AH’s timeline is aligned with a 15.30 timestamp at Martinet … where there is absolutely NOTHING to see except a barrier and a sign.

Now, I simply propose that AH did have a ‘meeting’ at 15.30 at Martinet.

It was setup by Mr Lure, and Mr Lure knew AH would hit that barrier and/or said to AH that ‘he would open the barrier’.

The simple fact that AH+Zainab were OUTSIDE while the others were INSIDE/STRAPPED … points to that they were somehow ‘waiting’

Again …

There is NOTHING to see (AC confirms this) … but perhaps somebody told them there actually WAS something to see (and somebody=Mr Lure)

(In this light it is but a small strange detail that BM stated he has in the past taken his family to this ‘beauty spot’ …)

@AC, at 10.05 in the video there is some time missing … how much time/distance would that be?

5-3-2013 at 11:32:20

@See_Bee @Max Re: Timeline

Once again my question: BM went up the Route de la Combe d’Ire at 15:19 hours, SAH left Doussard after 15:15 hours. The BMW Estate must have overtaken BM at one-third of his climb. According to witness BM a dark 4×4 came down about half-way and a motorbike near the fork in the road. Please enlighten me. Thanx

5-3-2013 at 11:54:39

“Oui 5-2-2013 at 16:19:11
“@NR on 5-2-2013 at 11:47:47: Not credible. Quotes from “unnamed” sources, is a conservative writer with sole goal to harm the Obama administration.”

The writer’s goal may be anti-Obama, but my sense is Saudis leaked this to cover their asses and show they are on US/UK side. Bet they’re into the Boston bombings big, if only as financiers. Right after there was report of Saudi student, burned, running away, grabbed by citizens, suspect in hospital, then only a witness but not allowed to leave, scheduled for deportation then not, Saudi ambassador at WH, immigration docs altered, congressional inquiry. That’s gone away totally, left+right main media agree it was all just a silly misunderstanding. Bet there were many designer shopping bags of $100s delivered to make that go away. It’s not only US that buys influence. If Saudis were involved it logically follows that Syria is blamed and invaded as happened last time with Iraq.

5-3-2013 at 12:00:22

@ Peter @ Oui @ See_Bee
Your theory above re banking etc. has elegance. At first glance many disparate pieces of the puzzle suddenly snap into place.

5-3-2013 at 13:54:18


Max is aware of the permutations and billions of combinations in his sudoku puzzle. I believe I saw him in a shop, buying a computer with more speed. No one promised the killings could be solved straightforward, it’s quite complicated, but I too believe the pieces will in the end fit and tie in loose ends.

5-3-2013 at 13:58:06


Kudos to you Max! Please loosen my memory, have there been similar masked killings in the past? No murderer is original in his concept.

5-3-2013 at 13:59:47

@ See_Bee, 5-3-2013 at 00:32:08

It is a pleasure to read somebody getting the point that I tried to make so many times. Your comments are spot-on: 10% cash maximum is a golden rule in asset allocation. Thus, for an ordinary private-banking client, that would mean that an HNWI or UHNWI with one million in cash has at least 9 million in other assets, typically more like 20 million.

Personally, I don’t believe that Kadhim AH was an ordinary HNWI, but rather a nominee account holder for Hezbollah, to prevent authorities from giving in to US pressure and seizing their assets. An organization such as Hezbollah is not interested in a balanced portfolio generating slow-but-steady profits. Illegal activities such as drug smuggling and extortion generate more profit than even the best asset manager ever could. What they do need, though, is hard, ready cash for a rainy day, cash that can in no way be attributed to them.

Kadhim AH would have been a good choice as a nominee account holder. As you are no doubt aware – you sound as if you are familiar with the industry – bankers are extremely adept at identifying both genuinely wealthy people and phoneys merely pretending to be wealthy. It would have made no sense for Hezbollah to fly in some itinerant goat-herder from Lebanon to open an account in Geneva on their behalf. Somebody who doesn’t speak any foreign languages, who never has had any dental work done, who doesn’t look as if he has ever worn a suit before – the bankers would smell a rat, and KYC (Know Your Client) rules would have forced them to investigate the sources of “his” wealth. No, they needed somebody like Kadhim, a genuinely wealthy man in his own right who could talk the talk and walk the walk. With a man like that, nobody would question how he came to possess a million Euros.

Upon the other hand, from the perspective of an organization entrusting its rainy-day funds to nominee account holders, it would make sense to diversify their risks, not to put all their eggs into the same basket. Thus, personally, I consider it more likely that they have another twenty nominee account holders just like Kadhim than that there are another twenty million Euros stashed away in Kadhim’s name.

5-3-2013 at 14:04:17


The most simple elegant no fuss solution, with all details and motives covered, is as follows (note: this is a POSSIBLE solution, and equations can some times have more than 1 solution):

TS took care of the 07 CM killing (favour, motive CM knew too much)
PM took care of the 12 SM killing (favour returned, motive SM cost too much)
BM is Mr Lure (paid/favour?)

If true, 2 cases are solved;)

5-3-2013 at 14:16:17


@18:40 in that video … a rudimentary ‘mask’

Perhaps X was disappointed that the 07 ‘mask’ was not taken serious, even laughed away, that he sweared that ‘next time’ he would come up with an incredible ‘mask’ which should convince all … (all, but me;) … pure VANITY on the side of X.

5-3-2013 at 15:18:49


Saddam’s money was a farce with “leaks” from the BND. Hezbollah as ally to Iran (Shia) is definitely a possibility if Kadhim did not possess this amount as entrepreneur himself. Saad and Zaid should have known what the source of the money was, especially if the account is guarded by a vow of death (Hezbollah).

However, many pieces of the puzzle still don’t fit. Who had the motive and was SM targeted outright or was he “lost” at the wrong place at the wrong time. Although a mask operation is quite intricate to execute, I still like Max’s ideas.

We can’t discount the operation was performed by a (foreign) intelligence agency. Read article about Yank from Poughkeepsie, NY.

5-3-2013 at 15:43:22

A ‘long shot’ would be to (try to) match the 07 DNA found with CS/TS DNA

(In the 12 case there was no DNA found at Martinet, there was no DNA taken from the respective circles (SM, AH) because why would the investigators bother. But … 12 DNA of SM circle might match with the 07 case where there WAS 1 DNA print, not being of PM;)

5-3-2013 at 16:05:25

@ Peter 5-3-2013 at 13:59:47
“they needed somebody like Kadhim, a genuinely wealthy man in his own right who could talk the talk and walk the walk. With a man like that, nobody would question how he came to possess a million Euros.”

I recall that’s how he was described by people on Costa del Sol — the talk, the walk, suave, cosmopolitan, without mention of millions of Euros. We wondered why, if he was wealthy, he choose a modest flat there.

5-3-2013 at 16:55:08

@ Oui

I like Max’ ideas, too. I love them, in fact, precisely for the reason that my own approach is radically different from his. I tend to search for plausible explanations for the essential issues and let the incidental details take care of themselves.

Regarding motive, neither Saad nor Zaid could have known how much money that Geneva bank account contained and believed that they had rightfully inherited the money therein. Otherwise, they would not have squabbled about the Claygate house and Saad would not have feared that he might have to sell it. At least Saad definitely knew about the account. Zaid most probably also did. Even if neither of them had ever seen a quarterly statement (which is difficult to believe), the name of the Bank alone, HSBC Private Bank would have told Saad that the sum involved must be substantial. The bank’s minimum deposit back in 2008 was CHF 100,000 and it would have been higher in the years before

Okay, so Saad knew about the account and knew or at least must have guessed that it contained a tidy sum, but he was still worried that he might have to sell the Claygate house. To my mind, this clearly implies that he also knew that he had no claim to the money, that it wasn’t really Kadhim’s and that he therefore hadn’t really inherited it, or half of it. Strictly in legalistic terms, though, he could have transferred it all to his own account and told the true owners to eff off.

From what I have learned about Saad’s personality as an inveterate joker, I would not rule out the possibility that he got killed over a joke, that he for example jokingly declared his intention of donating it all to charity. Whatever it was, the true owners of the money were obviously extremely unhappy about his behaviour and decided to make an example of him, pour encourager les autres. They therefore had him and his entire family “hit” in a spectacular and gruesome manner after luring him to the Martinet.

SM, I believe, was a random bystander, whether or not he was “lost” at the time. I believe that the argument about the noisy river nearby a fortiori applies to cyclists. I believe that SM cycled into the scene of a murder about to happen, that the killer had already drawn his gun at that point, and that SM got shot first because he had startled the killer, who hadn’t heard him approaching. The killer could have seen him approaching from far away, but hadn’t, because he was focusing on his intended victims, the AH family.

5-3-2013 at 17:00:45


re: Marechal murder

Lars, I must warn you, and indeed all here, that Marechal’s widow sues anyone and all who write about him.

You ask why those involved in this case are not under police protection and are giving interviews etc.

I can’t answer that Lars because I have no insider info. I did not actually follow the case at the time. I can however say that his murder by ‘arme blanche’ (stabbed) is a ‘local’ case whereas I am sure that it is not certain that Chevaline is and that an international connection is suspected.

Marechal was not with the national police.He was municipal police. I took the following from Wikipedia.

The Municipal Police (French: Police Municipale) are the local police of towns and cities in France. The French municipal police are under the direct authority of the Mayor, who is charged with significant powers of police administration, according to the regulations in Article L. 2212-2 du Code général des collectivités territoriales (CGCT) (2212-2 of the General Code of Territorial (CGCT)) with a responsibility to ensure good order, safety, security, and public health, and also to provide an administrative function, known as the “police power of the mayor. ”
Although the word “police” refers to the maintenance of order, the function mainly comprises the protection of citizens from disasters, and the task of regulating traffic and parking. To do so, municipalities are required to establish municipal police services, under the authority of the mayor for the task of enforcing local bylaws.

They therefore do not investigate murders or any other crimes, theft for example.

It is therefore incorrect to think of him as an important ‘chief of police’. He had 11 guys under his authority. Believe me they walk in twos or threes and write parking tickets for double parking and so on.

Sorry I can’t be more specific.

5-3-2013 at 17:10:20


re: Your 2013/05/03 at 1.59 PM about banking

Hey Hey Peter, I’ve been taking notice of what you say about the banking aspect of the case for ages and ages and ages. I’m even planning to ask you if you have a favourite resto in Paris for your winning dinner.

5-3-2013 at 17:14:54

@MZT re Sue

That is why I revert to acronyms. But if needed I will double layer this by denoting the elements with ‘colors’ or ‘numbers’ as to pack this (or these) puzzle(s) into a real Rubik/Sudoku format.

No prob for me, it was a ‘Sudoku’ to begin with lol;)

But for the reader it might become somewhat difficult to read, unless they know what the acronyms/colors/numbers mean.

5-3-2013 at 17:16:22

@Max @Peter

I accept you are head to head leading in the race for dinner in Paris with Marilyn Z. I think all ends are not yet tidied up and the complexity is underestimated. Any matter involving the Middle-East, Arabs, Palestinians and Jews are all smoke and mirrors. Just like a mirage in the desert at the horizon. No, it’s not water at a distance …

As NR has stated, many parts will come together in the real plot what happened at Martinet. Both Hezbollah and the Mossad are masters in disguise and a number of assassinations have been masked just like Max says.

As I have written a lot about the Mossad, the Hariri assassination was planned and executed by renegade jihadists in Lebanon. The Mossad infiltrated and managed the plot to point fingers at Assad’s Syria, the generals and intelligence. This was bogus, so now Israel, France and the US are pointing fingers at Hezbollah. Sound familiar?

The Saudi-Israeli Alliance and Piggy-back Coup of 2005

5-3-2013 at 17:31:03


Even I, Max, can’t always decipher the initials. For example I’ve been wondering what/who the AC Vid is which is being mentioned here …


All of you are welcome to visit me when you are in Paris. There will always be a cup of or a glass of something here chez moi for any of you who wishes to come. I may even put my apron on and bake a cake. Or on second thoughts, no it may have to be a Findus Quiche because I can’t bake.

5-3-2013 at 17:35:42


AC Vid = Alexander Cartier Video (now, that was easy;)

5-3-2013 at 17:38:03


But MTZ should be MZT;)

5-3-2013 at 17:51:43

ive still got the kettle ready here for people who want to look at the stuff I have but cant post
I did a little experiment last night ….
I tried something and it worked
one thing I found made me smile 🙂

5-3-2013 at 18:14:56

@Lars 5-3-2013 at 09:31:13

There are two scenarios to consider here, which you chose depends upon which of the “reports” of what the builders said you choose to believe .

So I believe that until we get a definitive text of the actual builders statements we have to keep an open mind and consider both senarios for the moment.

Senario 1 {Builder sees SAH at 15:00 or maybe a little bit latter}

<< deux ouvriers maçons qui restaurent un chalet à Chevaline, au 857, route de la Combe-d'Ire, assurent les avoir vus passer « vers 15 heures, peut-être un peu plus tard ».

Driving out of Arnand at 15:16 SAH would have taken the right turn over the bridge that follows the stream west to the Route de Chevaline {D181 , the road Alex came up}, He would have turned left at the T junction and driven through the hamlet of Loch {SL’s 90 degree bend where she met the Peugeot 205/307 at 16:15}.

SAH would have encountered the builders at circa 15:17 and crucially could only have been delayed for a short time, say 30/45 seconds, for him to have reached the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire before BM who was approaching Arnand along Route Moulin, not to have seen SAH.


Senario2 {Builders see SAH at 14:30 }

Armés d’un marteau-piqueur, ils empiètent un brin sur la chaussée pas bien large à la sortie de Chevaline quand une BMW s’approche. Une plaque anglaise. Pourvu que ce ne soient pas les propriétaires britanniques, Vivienne et John Beweek, venus constater l’avancée des travaux!, s’inquiète Laurent. Non. Il ne reconnaît pas l’homme qui conduit. Il y a une petite fille assise à l’avant, à ses côtés. Et deux adultes à l’arrière. Deux femmes, semble-t-il. Il est 14h40 ce mercredi 5 septembre

In this Senario SAH approaches along Combe’d’Ire {Indeed he may have followed exactly Alexs’s route from the D1508 along the D181 Route de Chevaline}.

SAH is delayed by the builders{ I have read for 10 minuets while they remove rubble from the road}. SAH gets on his way again between 14:40 and 14:50 and reaches the junction at the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at circa 14:41/14:51 and turns Left back towards Arnand. He would have arrived at Arnand at 14:43/14:53.

This gives a good 20t to 30 minuets before the time we have for the last photos. So time to park/find a toilet/get a drink etc before getting in the car and leaving Arnand 15:16/17 via Route Moulin and arriving at the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at 15:18.

Please note that in both Senarios it is possible that BM and particuarly SM could have been in Arnand at around the same time.

5-3-2013 at 18:30:06


I think that I believe that scenario 1 is more correct, simply because we “know” that the timing in the article in JDD is not correct (even though it is a very readable article. I think also that there is a more natural “flow” in scenario 1.

5-3-2013 at 18:37:00
5-3-2013 at 18:45:25


She must be a very busy woman, Madame Marechal, if she is suing everybody that writes abote her late husband.

She appears to me to be a very reasonable and clever woman, both in the documentary about the murder, as well as in articles where she expresses herself, so I believe that she would be interested in anything that would throw light on the murder of a her husband. Perhaps she is suing those who slanders her husband (would be wise)?

Personally I will wait until the murders are solved before I state what is local and what is not. That is also a question of how you define local, e.g. local motive or local killer.

To me a motive is nothing when it comes to solving a murder, you have to bring out as much evidence, and explain enough details, that it is possible to bring a perpetrator to court. Then a murder is solved.

I hope the killer will be caught alive so he can explain what actually happened at Le Martinet.

5-3-2013 at 18:54:55


I would like that! 🙂

My heart goes out to you, friends and family of the al-Hilly family in Claygate and the two lovely girls who were orphaned.

We appreciate everyone who goes the extra mile in an attempt to bring some clarity in this crazy affair. In Claygate I could envision the laughter and joy of Zeena and Zainab in their family home. I wish them well and do hope we will hear good news for them to join their true family.

5-3-2013 at 18:55:51


What has happened to your video ???! The music was gone. Is it censored?

5-3-2013 at 19:08:12

@Max – 5-3-2013 at 10:45:22

Hi Max

Agree with your summary that SAH went from Arnand to Marinet Car Park, leaving Arnand and arriving at Martinet between 15:24 and before 15:30.

I do however have a different perspective about the “view” in summer.

I found it to be a most pleasant ride up the Combe d’Ire Valley with the stream running along the side of the road, a very nice ride up through a forest valley.

Would I do the ride again, well I guess I might have reservations now after the events at Martinet of 5th September 2012, but had that not happened, the answer would be yes, and remember that people go up there to get up to Col de Cherel for the wonderful views – see the previous links I have posted for photos.

I am still open minded {yet to be convinced that SAH had a meeting}, it is of course possible and should not be discounted.

However if you checked any French road maps or cycle routes you will see that Martinet has a big red star on it, signifying a place/point of Interest

There are very few in that area. So there you are, your map open deciding where to go for the day, you would probably note the points of interest to investigate if you were on holiday in the area.

The places that are marked on the map with red stars or Castles /View point symbols are as follows driving from St Joriz along the D1508 towards Doussard and Ugine.
Duingt – Castle
Doussard – {North of D1508} Reserve Naturelle}
Doussard – {North of D1508} Col de la Forclaz – view point
Doussard –{South of D1508} – Martinet Car Park
Faverges – Station de Seythenex – view point {Ski lift?}
Ugine – {South of D1508} Batterie de l’Alpettaz

So it would not have been unreasonable, in my view, for SAH to have driven up Combe d’Ire to the red star marked on his map.

He would most probably be unaware, that there was no far reaching views or that the best part was further on from the Martinet car park where he parked his car.

Note there are 2 Information / sign boards. One next to where SAH parked his car and one further up the road past the no cars allowed sign {both clearly shown on Alex’s video}. So parking. getting out reading them would be quite the normal thing to do. Reading the second sign would involve walking maybe 50m further up the road towards the left hand bend and the forest track

I can quite understand why BM took his family up Combe d’Ire in summer

I have already posted the adjustments I made and how I calculated the adjustment of 20seconds – perhaps Alex’s could confirm {I took the time up from the last bridge when the film cuts an compared to the time going down from Martinet car park to the last bridge – 20 seconds different}.

5-3-2013 at 19:26:49


So Le Martinet got a star!

Could you give me an example of such a map on the Internet? I don’t believe I have seen it.

5-3-2013 at 19:31:33


Alex’s video still has music.

5-3-2013 at 19:32:38

@Fat Bastard

re: Your little experiment.

Speaking in tongues now are you Fat Basterds.

5-3-2013 at 19:55:37

@Marilyn/Alex Sound

Yes, I have noticed that. I don’t know what happened.

5-3-2013 at 20:03:57

@Oui 5-3-2013 at 11:32:20

Hi Oui

No ! SAH left Arnand at some time after15:15, assuming they were back in the car at 15:16 they would get to the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at earliest {Scenario 2 posted previously today} 15:18 via Route Moulin.

Brett Martin would have been in Arnand {if he indeed went via Route Moulin} at 15:15 and reached the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at just after15:19.

If SAH left Arnand Via the West road by the stream to Route Chevaline, past the builders at 15:17 he arrived at the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at 15:18:30 and was past the sign before BM got there.

The 4×4 Technicolor {4×4#1} was coming down from Martinet with the Motorcycle {MC#2} following behind.

Let’s make the Assumption that the 4×4 Technicolor {4×4#1} and MC#2 leaves the Martinet car park area at 15:31 it would be at the bottom of Combe d’Ire at the sign at say 15:37 {using Alex’ 5m23 up and 6m03down }.

So, BM having passed the sign at 15:19 or slightly later {+1 or 2mins}, and arrives at Martinet car park at 15:43, you can calculate that BM is passed by the is passed as he cycles up at approximately 15:33 which would be 1km down from the Martinet car park {or 2/3rds of the way up from the sign to Martinet car park}

5-3-2013 at 20:46:57


As Max has already shown with his timelines, it is a play with minutes and seconds.

If the 4×4 and the MC came via the “parallell road” to Route Forestiere and then towards Chevaline, and if Brett-Martin was at the sign 15:19, I can see with my “Chevaline-tool” that Brett-Martin had to be pretty slow to be able to see these two vehicles, or he had already passed crossing.

I believe that if BM was so close to the crossing that he actually saw them coming from the other road, he had mentioned that (if he is at all reliable).

It is kind of absurd that it is a play with minutes and seconds, and all these people, on that small road, in the middle of nowhere.

I mean, you can just say that Al-Hilli had to wait somewhere for 30 seconds, and the order at the sign is changed!

5-3-2013 at 21:26:47

No serial killing for me tonight. It’s bed for me. I am tired tired tired tonight and although it is still light in Paris, I will be calling it a day.

Do continue chatting during the night.

Tomorrow will be another day.

5-3-2013 at 21:30:26

@Max 5-3-2013 at 12:13:08

1) Sorry to disagree Max but the 15:15 pictures do not destroy BM timeline – BM statements are consistent with him NOT seeing the BMW and I think if you follow the detail of the timelines I have posted you will realize this.

2) “The Lure”

Being a fly fisherman I do enjoy casting a lure, if I am lucky a really small and inexperience Trout will be fooled by my artificial fly. The big fat ones just ignore it.

Moral of the story: –
For the lure to work you need a fly {the bait} that the target likes and thinks is natural {i.e. does not arouse the targets suspicion} and does not seem out of place in the “environment” the target finds himself.

So the question I would counter propose would be: –
What did the people that SAH came into contact with {both physically and virtually – phone /computer} in the days and hours before 5th of September have that was sufficiently appetizing and non-suspicious that SAH would bite and go for it and not see the immediate threat {evidenced by him taking the family}.

Trying to put myself into SAH shoes:-
An” innocent”meeting, for example, maybe a family who were at the campsite that had become friends suggesting meeting at Martinet for “le picnic”might be one obvious one.

Once I get away from that other senarios seem to be ones where SAH knows and has confidence in the 3rd party, of course it could be that the third party was vouched for by a trusted acquaintance of SAH.

You can, of course, also run the same logic against SM.

If you accept that there was a lure, given my first example of “lets meet for !le picnic “ at Martinet at 15:30, it is clear that the person showing the lure does not have to be the same as the one casting the lure.{i.e. They do not have to be present}, they simply send someone else or a team to set the hook.

There were a lot of fishermen on the Combe d’Ire on September the 5th 2012.Which one or ones set the hook and who sent them fishing?

In a reply to Oui last night I found it quite compelling to conclude that there were a team of Fishermen however it would seem probable and simpler that they were stalking their “wise old trout” SAH

Lets group the actors –
1) 4X4 ONT // Melvin MC#3 {Normal Activity}
2) BM// PDJ+2 Females {The Witnesses}
3) SAH &Family +SM {The victims}
4) MC#1 // MC#2//4X4#2 Technicolor//C#1 – Peugeot 206/307 {The Team}
a}MC#1 = Gunman/Backup/Relay
b}MC#2 = Backup/Gunman/Relay
c}4X4#2 Technicolor = Backup/lookout
d}C#1 = Coordination/Communications/Backup

@FB – I hope FB you do not mind me implying that SAH was a “fat old trout” but he does seem to me to have been a man of the world and not gullible or naïve? Your view would be valued.

5-3-2013 at 21:46:29

I don’t believe any of the Hezbollah stuff at all ! So, I won’t comment.

@See Bee, with so much misreporting or later changed statements I also speculated that Saad drove past the buliders, then took the hairpin back along Moulin, to check out the lay of the land if he had a meeting, I was poo-pooed !

The builders were behind time on the project, as again I said a while back, the French are known for long liquid lunches, especially in the countryside !

I have found that part of the property opposite the Beweeks place is for rent as holiday let, there are far more visitors to this region than anyone here is aware of, and they explore everywhere !

What I have realised is that those of us who have stuck with this blog haven’t changed the opinions we came in with, even with new ‘blood’, because we have not heard anything that convinces us to alter out perceptions.

@Max, I have respect for your time line long before Alex posted his video and See Bee added his personal knowledge of the route, I still cannot reconcile myself to a deliberate mask.

@Oui, the Morange story – muddies the water, of course he’d tell his family not to speak to the press, as Lars has mentioned, if you have ever had to be involved with them, their methods and reporting are often so biased that the person you see looking back at you is nothing like you at all.

The reason for the private funeral of Sylvain Mollier was because they didn’t want a media circus, I don’t blame them.

5-3-2013 at 21:55:50


There are serious problems with casting the roles of the “actors” in this drama. I personally doubt very much the reliabilty of the “witnesses”. Normally they would have explained their experiences several times and we could form an opinion. These “witnesses” have not. Normal witnesses use their own name, in this case I very much doubt that one witness is using his real name and the other seems to like to play with his. So are they really witnesses?

5-3-2013 at 22:07:45

@Lynda and others

No, I don’t believe we booed or anything else. I read all ideas and the ones that I find interesting I comment, if I have anything to say.
The fact is that there is very little we know for sure, so even ideas that I find less probable I store in my memory, and sometime they might be useful. That goes also for Max’s “lure theory” that is possible but somewhat “exotic” to my mind, but something might turn up that will make that idea real interesting. I might even read about conspiracy theories but with much less interest.

The strange thing about Mollier’s burial was that only one member of the Mollier family was invited, and that he was denied a proper burial.

5-3-2013 at 22:20:39



Anyway, my ‘lure’ is still simple compared to the LURE (BIG) needed to get AH to Martinet in case of a non-friendly/serious meeting … to which, btw, he travelled light hearted with 15 minutes prior some happy family pictures to boot.

Moral of the story … do not dismiss my ‘lure’ and bring the same (but bigger) lure back to make another scenario fit;)

The 1515 pictures ARE significant to BM’s account because these pictures (so close to the killing) are the ONLY thing BM (possibly) could NOT have known about.

And, imho, AH’s route from 1515 pictures to Martinet have to go via the masons (unless we accept AH being near the RF sign twice, which I doubt) … which would mean a de-route, which would mean a longer travel time, esp. since the masons stated a ‘no hurry’ … hence this all puts a lot of pressure on the tight timeline … hence BM’s account is ‘under attack’ (and no wonder the investigators double checked BM’s account, having trouble to ‘fit’ everything)

I’m not saying BM’s account is impossible, but I need a newer version of Excel to make everthing work;)


5-3-2013 at 22:44:28

@ Max & See_Bee:

The video might be missing about 20 seconds and 50 meters.

In fact, I’m running out of battery right on the bridge at 10:05.

I stop the car, switch off the camera, switch it back on and continue filming.

What you see after the cut should be right in the turn that you see ahead before the cut.

Sorry, See_Bee, I had all this already written yesterday at work, but then my boss came and I closed the browser without posting.

Although the video is missing 20 seconds and 50 meters I would personally not add the 20 seconds – these were 20 seconds when I stopped the car needing the 50 meters to brake – if I’d never had to stop to restart the camera I’d be rolling these 50 meters in one second.

I passed the sign at 5:20 and arrive 10:21 at Martinet so I’d say it takes 5 minutes to go up there by car if you are not intentionally cruising.

Everybody here remember I admitted rushing *downhill* cause my cellular indicated me how much time was left – I did not especially rush *uphill* for the the battery low indicator was on from the first take of the video right even before Doussard and I had enough tape left for hours if only the battery would hold.

I could not know when the battery would finally give in so I did not speed intentionally *uphill*, I was just driving fast with a target as

“if I knew the way or somebody would’ve told me”.


@ Peter:

I think it’s one of the best ideas ever on the blog that the witness describing an BMW X5 actually saw Saad’s BMW 5, I think it’s of great elegance and solves a lot of logical problems and I don’t understand why nobody has picked it up yet and admired you for.


5-3-2013 at 22:47:05

@Peter – 5-3-2013 at 13:59:47

Hi Peter
Thanks for you comments from last nights post and yes you are correct I am familiar with the industry.

I wanted to support the comments that you made some time ago when I did not have time to get involved in posting, as you will be aware, it takes up time contribute.

Agree with your well-made points about Kadhim AH and would also agree nominee status makes sense. The hard ready cash and the access issue is I think an important point.

I am struggling to see how they {Hez} maintain access to the account. I believe your implication is that there was in fact a line of communication, perhaps not directly between Hez and Kadhim and on his death SAH.

So here there is the opportunity for problems in the governance of the account after Kadhim’s death, unless of course, Hez know that SAH is one of theirs.

The scenario that you put forward I would agree as reasonable, in that there would be another 20 {or more} nominee account holders for Hez funds. Now, taking a step back, we now have 20 or so booted and suited Kadhim’s, all self-made men holding cash in deposit accounts for Hez, my problem with this is where is the asset the bank is now making their fees on that left them feeling “ comfortable” with the 20+ deposit accounts?

I am suggesting, as I am sure you are aware, that the bank would have had to have known the connection between the accounts to have been “happy” to have 20+ dormant non-producing accounts? So what story did the bank buy into, or are they only to aware of the origins of the funds? Then the cruncher, did the bank facilitate the global portfolio management of these funds at a higher level than the local Swiss private client operation/unit? These are of course questions that the bank would hate to be asked by anything other than a friendly auditor or regulatory body armed with incriminating facts.

Also it occurs to me that it would not be improbable that these account holders were known to each other. This then raises the question as to whether SAH was invited into the club or was already part of it. {I guess you also have to include his brother too}. Also, it raises the question as to the level of contact and coordination between Hez and the account holders and indeed between the account holders themselves. Therefore a local Hez organiser would make sense.

Hmm, Bankers and rats, now that’s a inviting comment! Question for me is weather the stench is strong enough for them to feel uncomfortable. A certain bank beginning with H {can’t bring myself to type the full name!} seems to have a high oder tolerance and got finned a lot on $US recently for basically laundering dirty money in the USA and not following US rules on due diligence on their clients. If the bank was breaking client engagement rules big time in the USA the culture was probably endemic in the wider bank and particularly in Switzerland. I.e. your comment <>

They should have been undertaking proper due diligence or they were simply too interested in money under management growth to refuse what outwardly appeared to be , and perhaps more importantly, they could pass off, as a legitimate business man investing his well-earned , though maybe ill-gotten wealth.

5-3-2013 at 22:51:02


The above was not directly at you, but at the AH=target in general.

If I would stick to the known ‘actors’ I would coin BM as Mr Lure. As he is UK and local and biker, so enough baite to hook AH into going to Martinet.

Of course Mr Lure would have to sync his ‘mask’ (AH) with the real target SM, who is prepped/stalled to take off from Ugine at about 45 minutes prior to 15.30 AH/Martinet .. so as to make SM arrive ‘a bit later’ than AH at Martinet.

(detail, SM circle contains other bikers so they could make an educated guess of the duration of SM’s trip to Martinet)

I once thought of an ‘active’ sync, in which Mr Lure would ‘park’ AH at 1515 Picture/Postoffice, checked on SM’s arrivel a few hunderd meters away, on seeing him pass, quickly return to the AH’s at postoffice and send AH’s on their way to Martinet with the line ‘I will catch you up there’

In the latter scenario Mr Lure would come after AH to Martinet

… now … who of the actors would ‘fit’ this profile? 😉

Anyway … I have given up on proving this one … but I hope a more direct, head-on approach will bring everything to the light.

That direct head-on approach is the idea that 2007 and 2012 killings are connected. And that, while executed perfectly, these 2 killings will be a ‘killing too far’ for X.

This double layered, double killing, favour and favour returned stuff with a vanity arrogance of ‘you dont catch me’ will ultimately be uncovered.

There is ONE DNA print, and perhaps that 2007 DNA print will find it’s match in the Savoie.

(btw, detail, TS and PM are medical ppl, so they would know of dna, traces and stuff more than the lay-man)

5-3-2013 at 23:04:00


You drove faster than the SAH family car on that day in early September. I timed your traveling from Doussard (corner Rue de la Poste and Rue de Chevaline) as starting point 00.00

01.15 sharp corner road coming from Arnand
01.39 second road from Arnand (Chemin Rural de Chevaline à Arnand)
02.47 Chevaline centrum at chapel near home Sylvie Lecoeur (Chemin du Moulin)
03.02 builders where video was taken
03.15 sign end of village Chevaline
03.47 sign at start climb to Martinet where Route du Moulin ends.

Thus from corner flower villa Doussard (Rue de la Poste / Route d’Arnand) it takes exactly 4.00 minutes. However who knows for a fact the camera setting was precise? If it was (EM knows!) than SAH started the climb to Martinet at least one minute behind SM and BM must have been behind Saad’s BMW Estate.

5-3-2013 at 23:16:47

Suppose BM was Mr Lure but only on the condition towards X of ‘not the girls’ … BM would take care of the ‘sync’, he would go to Martinet, he would ‘make up stories’ (invent MC, 4×4), but he would be shocked(!) to see X did not kept word and nearly killed Z, but he also would ‘play out’ his role when he heard PD arriving.

5-3-2013 at 23:56:31


After 10 hours of a day’s work for won my life, I do not think in terms of anything on all your comments. There are too many “timelines”, there are too many references of hours.

Why do not assume that the SHA family is not stopped at the parking lot, I said earlier that Martinet there was nothing to see, as shown in the video of Alex. There was no reason for SHA stops on this park. SAH are continued path, a bit more later he U-turn and returned to the parking Martinet. It is at this momment it all happened.

This is my theory.

Max, why not make a “timeline” on this point of view. Personally I’m too tired to do it (but also a bit lazy)


5-4-2013 at 00:20:16

Speaking in tongues
It has been suggested that some connected people monitor your excellent blog
I was seeing if they were ,by saying that i done something
Nothing happened so I guess what I did was of no significance to them
or maybe i was just being silly 🙂

5-4-2013 at 00:29:43


If AH would have done that (if there was no ‘barrier’) then he could NOT have parked the car on Martinet the way he did (before the backwards U-turn escape)

(the AC vid essentially shows what you are proposing;)

Unless, of course you are prepared to skip/froget the whole backwards u-turn/skidmarks/escape/getstuck AH tried.

Anyway, from my point-of-viw, all is crystal clear. And that ‘solution’ is pretty straight forward:

Lure both parties, wait until both are present, BANG BANG BANG you’re dead (SM first, AH/mask second, coupe de grace on SM third … just like CM) … even better, all is consistent with all facts.

I asked earlier … just name a fact which does not fit;) (besides ‘not believing’ in the ‘mask’ … I don’t ‘believe’ in the mask too, I just fit facts … believing is for ppl who ‘give up’;)

5-4-2013 at 00:32:13


“Does anyone know (Max?, Bacchus?) the name of the policeman, who sent the anonymous letters in the Christian Maréchal case?”

This comment was posted by @X.

Who is @X and why he has posted this comment.

May be we know the raison, … a link.

5-4-2013 at 01:03:35

Kadhem was not born in Iraq …..

5-4-2013 at 01:16:55


“If AH would have done that (if there was no ‘barrier’) then he could NOT have parked the car on Martinet the way he did (before the backwards U-turn escape)
(the AC vid essentially shows what you are proposing;)”

SAH was stopped short meters after the SM´s body lying in the parking lot. But, the BMW was on the road. At the beginning of the parking, direction Chevaline/Cherel, or for to be exact, at the end of the parking (direction Cherrel/chevaline).

The U-turn to escape was forced by the intervention of an other vehicle that forced (BMW) to make this move. (my theory)

There is no other reason to u-turn.

Because,if the BMW was parked at the end of the parking (direction Chevaline/Cherrel), the direction of u-turn was chevaline/cherrel and not cherrel/chevaline !

Can you understand this ?

5-4-2013 at 01:27:05

@ Lars 5-3-2013 at 18:30:06
Hi Lars

I have Scenario 1 & Scenario 2 in my spread sheet and both fit either could have happened. . So at the moment I have an open mind and both remain in the spread sheet. Like Linda I do think that Scenario 2 should be kept in until it can be eliminated.

I am still trying to find an article that I read some time ago that mentioned rubble all over the road and SAH having to wait for 10mins at 14:30. It is yet one more piece that I have not dismissed, as I have nothing with which to eliminate it with! Ok found the 10min delay article reported here :-


Like you I believe that the press copy comments are very readable but mostly mistranslates/manipulated or just plain wrong understanding and miscommunications etc. It is amazing just how much press comment you can not tie up with other peer publications, they all have a different “spin”.
Spin now subject to discuss with regard to the French investigation and its public face! Any takers?

5-4-2013 at 01:28:32

@Lars – 5-3-2013 at 19:26:49

Hi Lars
I put this link up yesterday. It will open onto a large scale ONF map of france , click on the square in the center and it will zoom in. {If you have a scroll mouse scroll forward to zoom in etc}. If you put the scale /zoom until the right hand scale is at the town level – you will be at the standard road mape size and will see all the red stars and viewpoints etc …hope this helps.

5-4-2013 at 01:30:03

@Lars -5-3-2013 at 20:46:57

Hi Lars
Yes I agree, minutes and seconds make a difference.

Ok the Parallel road starts in the Hamlet of Arnand and after circa 1/2km from the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire, after that it is a forest track . This is a forest track continues up to Captage where you can turn back down to the Combe d’Ire road or continue on to the Hairpin bend above Martinet car park.

The road joins 2.2 km up from the sign, so taking Alexe’s video and my spread sheet it takes 4.:26mins to get up to the turn to Captage or to get back to the sign.

If BM starts to peddle up at 15:19 at 5mph he reaches the turn at 15:36. If he saw a vehicle that had come down from the forest, on the left hand side of the valley as he went up Combe d’Ire, That Vehicle would have had to have been at the junction prior to 15:36 for BM to have seen him.

I my spreadsheet I have the MC {MC#3} up in this area as being Melvin on his 125cc Trail bike. I also have the ONF 4X4{4X4# ONF} up in this area.
I don’t have BM seeing either of these vehicles ONF 4X4 OR Melvin MC#3 on his trail bike. I belive that Melvin went home down the track to Arnand and them the short distance to his home in Marceau which is right next to Doussard so 2kms from Arnand.

Have you seen this Lars {the English translation is not good }?


Hope this helps

5-4-2013 at 01:32:31

@Lars 5-3-2013 at 21:55:50
Hi Lars
I agree to a certain extent with your views and frustration. The press have been fed a lot of spin by those controlling the investigation and to make maters worse the press have showen themselves to have more interst in a sensational headline than the facts.
Lets just for a minuet assume “Inspector Jacques Clouseau “and Co know what they are doing and are doing it for the best possible reasons.
There is protection on The Girls //SAH brother that we know about, Is BM being protected 24/7 too?.
Is there protection on CS and SM / his close family and kids ?
The only “witness “ that I am still unsure of with regard to real name is SM and PDJ and the 2 female friends whom I have found zip about have you found others ?

5-4-2013 at 01:34:20

@ Oui 5-3-2013 at 18:37:00

Thanks for the link …..Now I will need to find a nice young French lady to translate for me tonight!

5-4-2013 at 01:35:52

@Lynda 5-3-2013 at 21:46:29

I don’t’ know why you were poo-pooed, for me, as I have sated before, this has to remain an option as there is nothing that eliminates it in my spreadsheet timeline.

I have just looked back to when I was there, it was a Tuesday and very quiet once I got out of Arnand I saw no people whatsoever.

Of course as you so rightly say there could have been people hiking up from the base at Chevaline/Arnand, However, for me, people who are hiking tend to take the car up to a car park to walk higher up in summer in the Alpine medows etc.

5-4-2013 at 01:37:37

@Max 5-3-2013 at 22:20:39

Hi Max
I have not dismissed you “Lure “ at all. I always look for the simplest scenario that fits all the information to hand. Once things get complicated the chance of leaving a trail increases.

For me last night a penny dropped and, yes , I have modified my views as stated on a post last night. The scenario was simplified with the realisation that on of the actors MC#1 did not t need to had prior knowledge of the meet. So I now am leaning, everso slightly, towards SAH being targeted and followed.

Max from the pictures at 15:15 you can chose either scenario, they both fit the time line . If you chose the 14:30 at the builders scenario and the turn back to Arnand then the SAH family had 20/30mins to spend around Arnand.

Aslo in either Senario the in “no hurry” comment from the builder seems to suggest no appointment to keep to! This would support the follow up theory.

The Lure works for both SM and SAH equally, the question for me is what was the bait that got them their. So my mind is still open but the follow up is now my simplest.

5-4-2013 at 01:53:58

@Max – -3-2013 at 22:20:39

Many Thanks Max for sharing your spread sheet with me …..I will go through this tomrrow . Will try and work out how to get you a link to mine. {?How did you get that link for that workbook?}

5-4-2013 at 05:54:28

@See_Bee – 5-4-2013 at 01:27:05

Re your post :- “I am still trying to find an article that I read some time ago that mentioned rubble all over the road and SAH having to wait for 10mins at 14:30.”

I unfortunately went down this side track some time ago. It looks like the French paragraph “situe le passage de la famille Al-Hilli “à dix minutes près”. has been mis-translated.

Thanks to someone on this site, it was pointed out to me that this really meant “placed the passing-by of the Al-Hilli family to within 10 minutes” IE indicating his confidence level in the timing he gave to police, and not that they were delayed for 10 minutes.

I shall have to look back through the thread to find who posted this to give credit where it is properly due!!

5-4-2013 at 08:35:35


There was an earlier discussion about the builders here.

5-4-2013 at 08:47:59


Good morning!


Lots of chat during the night. I put a quick eye over it but will read-in later today.

Fat Basterds, the arm of the law is long. They will get to you still because of your provocative comment of yesterday. They will lock you in the shed and your wife in the bathroom and then they will proceed to rip up your house looking for evidence of what you had discovered/found.

Have a nice commenting day all of you.

5-4-2013 at 09:31:57

@Marilyn Z.

After your warning to FB, I may not accept any invitation for a high tea or dinner until the Chevaline massacre is solved. D:

5-4-2013 at 09:37:34

I still haven’t read all the comments. There is loads. Eheu!
However I do have a view on what the SAHs were doing there if it helps.
This purely anecdotal.

I envisage the family as kind of old fashioned, despite modern tech. They are rather restrained and very family oriented. Add to this a Britishness. They are not a typical modern family.
It is NOT at all extraordinary to me that they would drive about enjoying each others company for pleasure and a look-see as a group. Maybe they were checking out a route/venue for the next few days of the holiday. Southern England simply does not have empty national parks with glorious views and rivers rushing through. For them it would be an enjoyable novelty to be in a wild place. It is exactly the kind of thing I would have done with my family especially if grandma was visiting.
That element of cultural difference misunderstood is prevalent in The Boston bombings as well. Even French/British differences have to be flagged in case there is a misconception. Even one word in mis-translation can alter meaning and be reified over and over.

5-4-2013 at 10:43:36

perfect summing up of the Family 🙂

5-4-2013 at 10:46:33

Another random thought

REF: Janins statement about motorbike seen.

Perhaps they saw the person in silhouette at that time of day. Still able to make conclusions for a statement.
Bike might look big then because the rider was small (teenager or woman maybe)
Maybe they recognised that person. Think rural here. Think Morange effect.

5-4-2013 at 10:49:30

@ Fat Bastard
I did a little experiment last night ….
I tried something and it worked

I really would try that if I were you, but then I am insane 😀
However, your conclusion that just because you said that you had done it but your door wasn’t blown off its hinges by a group of large, angry men wearing balaclavas within 24 hours means that nobody involved in the investigation is reading this blog is wrong.

If investigators have any sense at all, they will still be monitoring all of Saad’s email and other accounts. Remember that old saving-draft-emails-in-a-shared-email-account-rather-than-exchanging-emails-trick that David Petraeus and Paula Broadwell used? That trick is such an old hat, terrorism 101. Although it is a bit late in the day now, investigators will still be waiting for a third party accessing his accounts, perhaps to clean up his own traces. The fact that nothing happened to you merely means that they *know* that you didn’t actually do it.

5-4-2013 at 11:13:38

I dont think Surrey police have the technical resources to do email monitoring 🙁
and as for logging into dead peoples voicemail
did they not leave that to the tabloid newspapers ?

5-4-2013 at 11:24:51

@ Fat Bastard

Those technical resources are the providers’ resources. Eric Clouseau has reported some difficulties getting US providers to cooperate, true. However, they were fairly quick to arrest that alleged Nigerian-born scammer, and that must have involved the cooperation of both Internet and mobile-phone providers. Thus, I wouldn’t underestimate their abilities.

That alleged scammer is a really, really intriguing mystery to me. Was he put up to it? Did the same people who (in my theory) disagreed with Saad over the contents of that Geneva bank account instruct that guy to hack Saad? Was he framed? I don’t know. All I know is that the probability of someone *unrelated* attempting to access Saad’s bank accounts at precisely the same time that Saad was accessing a mysterious bank account in Geneva are, er, slim …

5-4-2013 at 11:48:07

@Peter on 5-4-2013 at 11:24:51

Food for thought!

Althought in afterthought, the Hezbollah intelligence is second to none, see my earlier comments. The group did unravel the Mossad spy network in Lebanon. I don’t see them use a Nigerian second rate scammer.

5-4-2013 at 12:13:38


I have for a number of reasons thought that the rider of the MC at Col de Cherel, if it existed, was a woman. She was also not strong enough to keep the MC upright at that stony road, but had to use her feet as support.

5-4-2013 at 13:28:36


re: High tea or dinner?

With Fat Basterds or with me?

5-4-2013 at 15:35:51

@ Lars

Actually, to keep a heavy motorcycle upright on bumpy ground using your legs (rather than by shifting your bodyweight, which doesn’t require physical strength at all, only agility; or by simply opening up the throttle and letting the wheels’ gyroscopic forces do the work for you), you need long legs and you had better be strong.

A friend of mine recently bought a nearly-new Ducati Monster for a song. The previous owner, a young woman, had tried to use her feet to keep the bike upright whilst zig-zagging around pylons at walking pace during an advanced riders’ training course. She was crushed to death beneath her own motorcycle.

In short, the behaviour you are describing sounds like that of a tall, strong male.

5-4-2013 at 18:20:47


Sorry, I don’t believe I have described any behaviour at all.

5-4-2013 at 19:28:17

@ Fat Bastard 5-4-2013 at 01:03:35
“FYI Kadhem was not born in Iraq …..”

Can I guess Syria? Second guess would be Lebanon, third Iran.

5-4-2013 at 20:10:56

@Fat Basterds

re: Surrey police resources

Do you think it’s still Surrey police who are on this case? I think it’s gone much higher than that. Scotland Yard.

5-4-2013 at 20:13:31


re:Where Kadhem was born.

If it was Iran then this case becomes so much more interesting.

5-4-2013 at 20:16:07

@Lars and @Peter

re: behaviour

Lars, what Peter means by ‘behaviour’ is the conversation you had with JCave about the motorcycle rider who might have had to use his/her feet to keep the bike steady.

I really appreciate that so many of you here are writing in a language which is not your own. I know that I won’t join an on-line chat group where I have to write in a language which is not mine.

5-4-2013 at 20:19:36

@ Lars, 5-4-2013 at 18:20:47

Okay, call it “actions” then. However, my point remains the same: A woman might get away with using her feet to stabilize a 70 kg trial bike (which has a very low centre of gravity and a very low seat anyway), perhaps also with doing so on a ± 100 kg enduro bike, even though the high seating position would cause her trouble, but on a > 200 kg road bike, that is quite a dangerous undertaking, particularly on uneven / slippery ground, where a slip of the foot would inevitably entail painful consequences.

If you don’t believe me, let’s wait for some other poster with experience of riding motorcycles to comment, for example @ Alexander Cartier. For the moment, though, just take it from me that having > 200 kg of motorcycle with a burning-hot engine between your legs is radically different from having ± 10 kg of bicycle between them.

5-4-2013 at 20:21:14

Now I am going to say tomorrow is another day.

5-4-2013 at 21:51:09

Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it, but what if SAH or even grandmother was meeting “someone” in France to transfer Swiss accounts to a new nominee? The SAH family is happy to be done with the whole business, and perhaps one of them gets the contents of the dormant account as a fee for services rendered.

And if “someone else” — Israel or others — took exception to this. The transfer wouldn’t necessarily happen at Martinet either, that may have been intended later. But the SAHs were lured/followed to Martinet and eliminated to prevent it.

Question to Swiss banking experts. Could such a transfer be done outside the bank, or outside Switzerland? For example, were SAH’s travels to Geneva about arranging this with bank, signing his side of the documents there, giving them to new nominee in France and they appear at bank later to complete transfer?

5-4-2013 at 22:31:59


‘No hurry’ = AH knew he was ‘on schedule’ for Martinet

(e.g. a variant where BM is (active) Mr Lure. BM meets AH at 1515 pictures, says ‘Go to Martinet’ I will catch you there on bike … in this way AH was not ‘in a hurry’ to be at Martinet … ps: there are more variants)

5-4-2013 at 23:24:59


Q: I will put it to you all straight forward … Who of you did think of (the possibility) of this being a ‘masked’ killing (SM=target, AH=mask)?

A: I guess, none

The problem with this is that very probably, also EM and his team did NOT think of this. Hence they always try to solve this case by looking in the wrong direction … and by definition you can not solve it (unless X blunders like a complete idiot)

They might have checked SM’s ‘nuclear’ stuff (which is a dead end)

And they only skimmed SM’s familial stuff for minutes (less then an hour) because of course, when you think it is about AH, why indeed would you spend time on SM.

That is why this killing is not solved yet, and that is HOW THE MASK WORKS … the mask makes you look in the wrong direction;)

We all know, and you can look it up, that from the very beginning EM’s ‘pistes’ did NOT include the piste SM/familial … and … did the investigation ‘advance’? Nope, not one millimeter … It wont be long before they will conclude it must have been a ‘nutter’. Case unsolved.

5-4-2013 at 23:27:11


Imagine that SAH is not stopped in the parking lot, but continues his journey to find a nice view to show his mother. (See-Bee can tell us how long is the first “nice spot” from Martinet, this is important).

After stop for 5/10 minutes to see the landscape, the family returned in its path.

Max, can you do a time line with this data and see if the momment where SM arrives to parking and SAH arrives are synchronized ?

In my opinion is that SAH has cross a 4×4 (if it exists) when he went to the “nice spot”

Max, I hope a good work!


5-4-2013 at 23:53:46

Hi Max
I am busy going through your spread sheet today comparing to mine etc. …we have many things in line and a few items that I will ask you questions on tomorrow.
Your post about “no hurry”, I agree that this would explain SAH disposition. I have posted earlier that my timeline on my spread sheet gives me the “strong probability “that both BM and SM were around Arnand at the time. Indeed if we ad some “slip” to the times eg +/-1/2 mins you could state with some level of confidence that SM was indeed passing Arnand at 15:15/16 at the same time as SAH. However we do not know where BM was from 14:30 left home in Lathuile to when {by back calculating the time,15:43, he arrived at Martinet car park} he could have been in Arnand. So, for all we know, BM could have been having an Icecream and feeding the ducks in the stream at Arnand {or tickling a Trout}, up until 15:16/17 when he would have had to have been on his bike off along route Moulin.

5-5-2013 at 00:00:03


I can imagine a lot of things;)

But, unfortunately, I’m a stubborn bastard. I can not go (anymore) for AH=collateral

Because if AH was really ‘collateral’ that would mean that had AH not been there it would be obvious for everyone (incl EM) that SM = Target. And by consequence that EM only had ‘1 piste’ namely SM;)

And that is precisely what X did not want, so he HAD TO mask the killing of SM.

If I look through the eyes of X (premeditating the killing of SM) I can understand his reasoning.

Ok, perhaps the setup is ‘theatrical’ but then again, X might be a ‘show off’ guy … really going for the perfect murder, stunning the world with a mind boggling case (and getting rid of SM) … and who knows, he was just perfecting his trick. His trick being ‘getting rid of undesired ppl without being caught’

5-5-2013 at 00:01:41


“Case unsolved”

No !.

We will do everything so that this case will be solved, because we are united in the same direction. THE TRUTH.

Alex is the evidence of what I said!

We must take active attitudes.

Thank you Alex.

5-5-2013 at 00:14:46


“I’m a stubborn bastard”

Excuse my question indiscreet, but how old are you?

Because if you have more than 80 years, I understand that you’re stubborn. Otherwise, this is serious!…

5-5-2013 at 00:27:57


I’m only stubborn when I know I’m right;)

… and SM=Target, AH=Mask is a (but perhaps not ‘the’) solution which fits ALL details/facts

I can only add 2 things:

1. Just debunk this ‘solution’ without using the word ‘believe’
2. Think of another ‘solution’ which fits all details/facts

5-5-2013 at 00:28:56

RE Kadem

He was born it the British Protectorate of Mesopotamia 🙂
Iraq was not invented until 1920 😉

5-5-2013 at 00:35:21

RE surrey police
the case is a joint venture of the French and

Major Crime Team, Surrey & Sussex Joint Command
Tel: 01483 638213 Mobile: 079xxxxxxx
Tho Zaids panic team were MET but then he lives in the Met area

5-5-2013 at 00:42:39

oh if the case has gone higher then
I want a panic button like Zaid has !!

5-5-2013 at 00:42:41


Ok, I’m 50 (in june 51)

Tell me which is the killing reponsable.

5-5-2013 at 00:45:18



(this does not mean ‘private message’)

5-5-2013 at 00:56:51


Thank you,

I don’t know who is PM, but I thank you.

or … @X

5-5-2013 at 01:14:57


The video link you sent me was most interesting. I had not see that before. Think that clarifies my thinkin and has allowed me to exactly place the location of the builders on the map. So now I can tighten up the timeline again.

It’s clear the builder sw no other vehicals – so again lots of bad press reports out there! Basically means the ONF and MC#2 did not pass him … do you agree Oui? That I think, gives us
1)ONF up in the forest but no one saw them go up RF.
2)MC#2 comming down RF but no one saw going up.

So if they went up Combe d’Ire they would have had to go via Arnand and Route Moulin.

5-5-2013 at 02:02:44

Hi Peter
Been thinking particularly about Saddams {Would equally apply to Hez as well} dispersed funds tonight, what do you know about “trust accounts”?

My thinking is thus:- If a trust was constructed in a country other than Switzerland, could the trustees of that fund be controlling nominee accounts in Switzerland. This could solve the riddle of where the other 90%+ was.

I guess you could dismiss offshore tax havens as being too sophisticated so in my mind that only leaves one option?

5-5-2013 at 02:33:12

@Baccus – 5-4-2013 at 23:27:11

Ok Baccus, I have run the scenario you have asked for:-

The road continues after the car park and from my records and memory, he could have gone a further 4km/2.5m, this would take @ 20mph = 7mins.
As SH arrives at Martinet car park at 15:23to15:24 at the earliest there is only 6mins or less before the shooting.

So the maximum distance he could have gone before turning back to Martinet is 1.5km/ 0.94 of a mile /3 mins before returning to be back at the Martinet car park by 15:30. I have SM arriving at the Parking at 15:29.

Not far enough to get out into the Alpen meadows and no time to do any sightseeing or get out and take photos!

I agree there could have been an ONF 4X4 up there. There are neatly stacked log piles beside the road in that area so its managed forestry.

5-5-2013 at 02:44:15

@ Fat Bastard 5-5-2013 at 00:28:56
“RE Kadem He was born it the British Protectorate of Mesopotamia
Iraq was not invented until 1920.”

Good one. A trick history question. Do you create puzzles for The Times?
So Kadem was a Mesopotamiaite, a group we never considered. 🙂

5-5-2013 at 06:00:24

@ Max 5-4-2013 at 23:24:59
“@ALL — Q: I will put it to you all straight forward … Who of you did think of (the possibility) of this being a ‘masked’ killing (SM=target, AH=mask)? A: I guess, none”

It’s possible, though at the moment I favour the banking/Hezbollah idea with the SAHs lured/followed to Martinet.

@ Oui 5-3-2013 at 13:58:06
“@Max “Kudos to you Max! Please loosen my memory, have there been similar masked killings in the past? No murderer is original in his concept.”

Here’s a possibility of an elaborate mask, or maybe just a drug murder, related to deceased, alleged Boston bomber. Three friends, bodybuilders/MMA, all or two Jewish, brutally murdered, nearly decapitated, with an ice-pick or knife, Mafia or Al Queda style, on 9/11 2011, in tight 20 min. time frame, bodies covered in drugs and cash.

Main media never mentions 9/11, says Sept. 2011. Possibilities are Tamerlan murdered one and added other two and drugs/cash as mask. Or it was symbolic on 10th anniversary of 9/11, but why mask it? Hidden message? I cobbled together this background:

@ Lynda 5-1-2013 at 16:46:47
“Lars, I am the daughter of a highly qualified engineer, I was brought up to be self sufficient in every way, I am the one in this household that fixes things, that uses logic to solve problems, be that computer, electrics, plumbing or cars !”

Rampant sexism/racism/Islamophobia in Boston story. Not one person suggests bomber’s widow, the fair maid Katherine, might have been bomb maker or ring leader. Media gives every excuse why she might have known nothing of evil, Dagestani, Muslim brothers’ plot.

5-5-2013 at 06:06:13

@ Max re above: I misunderstood your original question. I thought you were asking if any of us thought the mask theory possible, not who possibly thought of it first. No, I did not think of it prior to you suggesting the mask.

5-5-2013 at 10:06:41


@Fat Basterds.

Nice one you pulled about Kadem’s nationality. I’m going to write to the producers of The Weakest Link to employ you as question writer.

Seeing we are on age confessions. I was 18 last November. So I am legally entitled to having a website.

Have a nice commenting Sunday.

5-5-2013 at 10:10:10

May 5 = September 5 + 8 months.