Please leave your comments on this post now. If you wish to read previous posts about this shooting at Chevaline on Sepember 5, 2012 you can do so   here written on 12.09.12 here written on 11.07.12 here  written on 10.25.12 here written on 09.08.12 here written on 09.06.12        

Saad Al-Hilli

Saad Al-Hilli


Please leave your comments on this post now.

If you wish to read previous posts about this shooting at Chevaline on Sepember 5, 2012 you can do so


here written on 12.09.12

here written on 11.07.12

here  written on 10.25.12

here written on 09.08.12

here written on 09.06.12


Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris's horse butchers.

Chevaline means horse meat: Here is one of Paris’s horse butchers.


Chevaline marking crime scene

Chevaline marking crime scene



Chevaline marking the crime scene.

Chevaline marking the crime scene.

Marilyn Z. Tomlins

1,072 Responses

3-6-2013 at 09:58:19


Here I am.

@Oui, yes you did squeeze that last comment in…

So let us see how the comments will go on this thread.

3-6-2013 at 10:00:32

Thanks again Marilyn!

Wow, I sqeaked that last comment in! Didn’t I?

And remember, SM got to Martinet because “he lost his way”, quoting prosecutor Maillaud. Poor lad.

3-6-2013 at 10:39:43


Thanks for the new thread. It was much needed.

3-6-2013 at 10:54:25

@ Marilyn

a breeze. I was following the thread also on my smart phone and it took ages to load.


3-6-2013 at 11:19:12


Thx for the positive thinking along!

Myself being the critical guy and always looking for more simplicity (aka ‘elegance’ … btw, my computer programs/script also always become SMALLER upon a next look;) I have taken into account the various remarks made by you and others (Lars, et all)

I now can come up with an even more simple scenario, less spectacular, explaining near all movements/locations, within the witness satement and within the timeline … as follows:

– MC/X wants to kill SM
– SM is going for a trip to Martinet (reasons unknown)
– AH’s are just touring around (strickly collaterals)
– BM is fitnessing on his bike (pure witness)
– ONF is ‘patrolling’ in the woods (witness … no more suspect!)


MC/X want to kill SM at Martinet (quite spot). He (somehow) knows SM is going there. So MC/X follows SM from Ugine and once MC/X knows for sure SM is indeed going to Martinet (around Doussard) he takes his ‘prepared route of attack’ namely the parallel road through the woods to pass SM and arrive at Martinet first and to ambush SM there

Now comes the variant …

While going up towards Martinet on the parallel route, MC/X stumbles on ONF (about 1 km north of Martinet) and he is INDEED ‘redirected’ to the main road (Route Forestiere)

Now MC/X has problems. He approach is denied. And he lost valuable time. ONF is around (yet, because of his helmet he is still not identified)


On arriving at the main road (with ONF still back in the woods) MC/X has a problem. He doesn’t know if SM already has passed this point!!

MC/X could wait here and ambush SM here … BUT … did SM already pass? (and … ONF is around too)

MC/X decides to continue with his plan to kill SM … AND … he goes UP to Martinet (via the main road)

On arriving at Martinet he does NOT see SM, so he concludes that SM still has to arrive.

(If AH’s are already there or not is not important, they will be collaterals … Zainab statement suggests AH’s still have to arrive too)

MC/X parks his motorbike out of sight behind the barrier. And waits for arrival SM. MC/X also is on his guard because he knows ONF is around somewhere

SM arrives … MC/X strikes … fast, and brutal. No ‘smalltalk’ because he knows ONF is around so MC/X has no time for more problems.

Whether or not MC/X knew about AH’s is NOT important. They are strictly collateral and are disposed off because they are witnesses!

After the killing MC/X decides on his escape route.

Col de Cherel is difficult with that sort of motorbike. The parallel road is risky, because ONF hangs out there … So he decides to take the normal road down dir. Chevaline. Yet he does not drive like a mad man. He is on his guard for bumping into ONF again.

The ONF in the mean time DID exit the woods and also went to the main road and down dir. Chevaline (for them it was perhaps end of shift or something)

This explains why BM saw first ONF, and a few minutes later MC/X

The only(!) weird thing left is that ONF have no recollection of BM, and that they didn’t came forward directly (mayby at end of (night?) shift they went to bed and only heard of the shooting the next day?)

— Max

3-6-2013 at 11:24:17

Above scenario relaxes the (tight/impossible) timeline and reliefs ONF from most ‘weird stuff’. The rest stays about the same.

3-6-2013 at 12:37:29

@Max Re: new timeline
interesting, I´ll thinkover that. Seems very plausible on the first glance

3-6-2013 at 12:41:39

I don’t remember if this was discussed here at MZT. It was at CM, maybe while MZT was closed. The Lambert family from Manx, Isle of Man, UK, were staying at the same campground.

“Mr Lambert said they had driven back from a cave and waterfall past the murder scene at around the time the shootings would have taken place.”

“‘We arrived back at about 3.30pm French time and sirens were going on constantly for about two hours,’ he revealed. ‘The police helicopter was up and we knew something serious had happened.”

“He said the murdered family, made up of the husband and wife, two children and paternal grandmother, were frequent visitors to the campsite and were well known to others there. There are people who knew the family who are really upset – they had been playing boules with them last year.’”

Where is the cave and waterfall and how could they drive to it if the road was blocked. He implies they drove “past” Martinet coming back down shortly before the murders. How much time is it to drive from Martinet back to the campground? If it is, for example, a half-hour, they would pass Martinet at approx. 3:00pm. Would they not need to pass the builders, Laurent & group, who supposedly had the road blocked when the SAHs wanted to drive up? Laurent doesn’t mention anything about them.

For a quiet road (it must ordinarily be quiet for the builders to block it for a time) and forbidden beyond Martinet, it seems there is much traffic on this day — cars — the Lamberts, SAHs and PDs; bicycles — SM and BM; the motorbike; the ONF and the 4×4 — those could be the same? And le jeune colossé on a motorbike above Martinet.

3-6-2013 at 12:42:05


In this scenario, strike the “nutter” option. A nutter would have gunned down the ONF forest guys, rode to Martinet and killed the SAH family before making his get-away. Nutter X would have been out of ammo even before SM reached Martinet.

This stenghtens the case for SM being the prime, pre-meditated target for the murder. However, this doesn’t fit with EM’s preconception to look solely at the British SAH family and ties to Switzerland, France, Spain, Iraq and US. Perhaps EM sees conspiracies where there are none! LOL 🙂

3-6-2013 at 12:50:07


So you made it. I thought you might be diverted by some forest guards!!


re: Mr Lambert

No, as far as I can remember we never discussed him here. It’s interesting and it will sure lead to much discussion here now.

Did we, for example, know that the Al-Hillis had been to the last of the two campsites before and that they were well-known there?

And yes, you are right, for a quiet road, it was pretty busy that day of September 5, 2012.

3-6-2013 at 12:57:53


Short audio clip of interview with Malcolm Lambert on day after shooting – here.

3-6-2013 at 13:20:38


I dont think Mr Lambert was up at Martinet (Combe d’Ire) … I huess he was sightseeing in the surrondings. Possibly at Faverges a few kms to the east where there is a cascade (see it on michelin maps)

When he drove back to the campsite he would take the D1508 (Ugine -> Annecy) which passes Doussard (Chevaline) … In a sense he would ‘pass the murderscene’ I guess with ‘murder scnene’ he refers to ‘Chevaline’ in general.

I think it is highly unlikely that they were actually at Martinet. And I guess he couldn’t ‘pass’ that because we assume the ‘barrier’ was closed.

— Max

3-6-2013 at 14:02:05


Famous waterfalls and cave near Annecy are at Seythenex as described by a blogger here. Location is not near Chevaline but off highway at Faverges.

More likely the spot Malcolm Lambert visited was Semnoz and Gorges du Fier as described by blogger here. However, both locations would not get them near Chevaline. The Route de La Combe d’Ire lies between mountainous ridges and you can’t cross them, one must travel through the valley. One other possibility is the Cascade d’Angon at Talloires, across Lake d’Annecy. The nearest for their travel is the Lamberts would pass through the village of Doussard.

Once again I tend to agree with Max. I can’t see the Lambert family travel by Martinet, no-way!

3-6-2013 at 15:27:19

I have read that Lambert story somewhere before, not on the CM-blog because I don’t read that. I , like Max and Oui above, don’t believe they were near Martinet. The journalists geographical knowledge is generally very poor.


I think you have to stick to the idea that the MC was somehow able to get to Martinet before al-Hilli, otherwise the shooter had to be raving mad, knowing that both the forestry guys were very near and al-Hilli at the murder scene!

But it still doesn’t ring true to me. I think that if they ever met, the MC and the forestry men, it had to be after the killings. That the MC-guy would rely on the bad memory of several people (do not remember any thing about the MC and it’s driver) seems fantastic.

Concerning Maillaud and the forestry men:

But it took weeks (!) before Maillaud said that they had talked to these guys.

At first Maillaud said half-heartedly a couple of times that the police wanted to talk with them (in connection with calls for witnesses).

Since Maillaud seemed so disinterested I thought then that he also doubted Brett-Martin’s testimony and hardly believed that they existed.

Then he stated after many weeks that the police had spoken to them. But Maillaud still seemed as disinterested in these guys, he didn’t explained why they hadn’t come forward, he didn’t relate what they had said about the day in question or anything else. He just stated that the police had talked to them, period.

Why this total disinterest in some of the very few people that actually were in that area that day (the others are Brett-Martin and the young boy on the other mountain slope)?

As our discussion above shows, it is very hard to create a credible scenario involving these people. Some things even point to the possibility that they are the perpetrators, but still Eric Maillaud is not even interested.

I think it also makes you wonder how these French journalist think. What would make them question one word that Eric Maillaud has said? I’m beginning to think that if M. Maillaud said that it all was a conspiracy of Yahoo and Google, and that the truth is hidden in their servers, the French journalists would just nod their heads and say “No sh-t!!”.

3-6-2013 at 16:59:33

@Lars @Max
From article above describing account of Malcolm Lambert …


“Mr Lambert said they had driven back from a cave and waterfall past the murder scene [read village of Doussard – Oui] at around the time the shootings would have taken place.

‘We arrived back at about 3.30pm French time [here is that one hour time difference again – Oui] and sirens were going on constantly for about two hours,’ he revealed. ‘The police helicopter was up and we knew something serious had happened.'”

The lapse of time between murders and the questioning of ONF forestry guys is absurd! It just isn’t right the way the French police has handled the investigation. EM niets to drink some of Max’s ale and keep it simple.

3-6-2013 at 17:00:38

@ NR, Max & Oui

There is a waterfall on the other side of the valley called “Cascade du Trou de l’Enfer”

It is further down the valley towards Chevaline. To get to it, one could drive into the valley on the Route Forestier de Chevaline thus staying on the other side of the stream running down the valley.

Unfortunately I dont know if there is a cave associated with it.

3-6-2013 at 17:18:43


Thx!! I’ve found it …

(I dont think Lambert was there, but you never know … it is not close (at least 2kms) to Martinet but true it is the same area)

3-6-2013 at 17:51:15

Malcolm Lambert of Manx was a local reporter/photographer for the paper and radio station on Manx, so you may all be correct in saying he was in the vicinity of the murders — Annecy, the campground — and he implied he passed by Martinet to give the story more colour. He did not take any pics though. The Manx media used the same ones everyone else did, including those of the caravan at the campground.

3-6-2013 at 17:52:36

For Marilyn’s fans …

Close, but not on route to Martinet, unless Lambert “lost his way.” 🙂

3-6-2013 at 19:02:50

Video clip is from an area near Chambéry, not the same location Max pinpointed in his map which is a secluded waterfall on the ridge overlooking the valley d’Ire.

3-6-2013 at 22:03:05

On examining the map (which in fixed format I had seen before … was it by Oui?) I started to rethink parts of the scenario.

After looking at the ‘cascade’ I looked at the ‘parallel’ road. And this map seems to indicate that road is less obvious than I had assumed. I was actually ‘Brrr, it is near impossible to take that road’

… So, initially I was baffled by this finding as it would undermine my own ‘parallel road’ scenario … but I gave it a second, more subtle thought. Follow me:)

Suppose everything went about as outlined in my previous scenario. MC/X wanted to kill SM at Martinet by following, and taking the parallel route to arrive first at Martinet and there ambush SM

Now … MC/X was perhaps not a regular visitor of that region. Perhaps he never had travelled on that ‘parallel road’

But he learned about (or setup) SM going to Martinet and looked up where exactly Martinet is and how to ‘plan his ambush’

… NOW comes the subtle part …

MC/X used ‘google maps’ like we all do/did. And google maps shows clearly a ‘parallel road’. So MC/X used that info to plan his approach.

Fast forward to reality

Now, arriving/following SM at Arnand, MC/X did take the parallel road. And initially all goes well …

… the road however becomes more and more difficult to drive with a ‘normal’ motorbike. See BUT MC/X realizes it is TOO LATE to turn back and follow SM etc. etc. So he continues in the faint hope he will arrive at Martinet …

… But MC/X gets lost and disoriented more and more. Suddenly he stumbles on the ONF. The ONF is as much surprised to see ‘a normal motorbike in the woods’ as MC/X is about seeing ONF (quote: Cette moto, qui s’était aventurée sur des sentiers forestiers, “avait été reconduite dans le chemin de la combe d’Ire par des agents de l’ONF”, a indiqué le procureur)

… MC/X is lost, loses time and control and is stopped by ONF … BUT … ONF ‘redirects’ him to the main road. Damn (in this variant ONF actually helps MC/X) … MC/X follows the ‘redirection’ and ends up on the main road, where he realizes that THIS road is the road to Martinet. And SM must be somewhere on this road …

… Did SM already pass? MC/X doesn’t know. So, to execute his plan he HAS TO go uphill to Martinet. He arrives at Martinet and sees … NOBODY

… MC/X knows he still can execute his plan because SM surely will arrive any minute (ONF is present but far away). MC/X now continues with his original plan, parks his motorbike behind the barrier and waits

(perhaps now AH’s arrive unnoticed by MC/X who knows)

… Then, SM arrives. MC/X comes forward, shoots SM and eliminates all AH’s (witnesses).

.. MC/X now escapes via the normal road, fed up as he is about this ‘parallel dirt’ and knowing ONF could still hang around.

The rest we know.

Funny, this variant:)

I can even now start to understand EM/Investigators. They possibly do not have thought of this scenario because actually BEING/SEEING the parallel road will make clear that it is not a ‘good plan to take that road with a normal motorbike’ … So, perhaps EM does not realize that MC/X was there ON PURPOSE because he made A PLANNING ERROR. EM perhaps still thinks it was just a motorbiker driving a bit around:)

From EM/ONF point of view a ‘planned attack via the parallel road’ is unthinkable … but me (and you) perhaps think different. I made the SAME MISTAKE as MC/X … by assuming through googlemaps that the parallel road was a ‘good plan’:)

(You see, the tweaking continues, and every setback/detail somehow makes its return in an even more credible way)

— Max

3-6-2013 at 22:53:07

@ Max : From CM : Pink 6 Mar, 2013 – 4:49 pm

@NR Could you please pass this message and link on to Max at MZT showing the builders saw Green 4×4 and a motorbike before the BMW they saw nothing afterwards.

“Laurent Fillion-Robin, a 38-year-old builder, also claimed there was no sign of any vehicle following the family. He was working on a house near Chevaline when he saw the maroon BMW drive past between 2.30pm and 3pm.”

“He told police he had seen a green 4×4 and a motorbike heading in the direction of the crime scene beforehand. Fillion-Robin’s testament points towards an agreed rendezvous between Al-Hilli and his eventual killers — a possibility which may be backed up by the records of two mobile phones found in the BMW.”–why-were-the-alhillis-shot-dead-8125292.html

3-6-2013 at 23:10:05


NR in his 2013/03.06 at 10.53 pm gives the name of the builder – Laurent Fillion-Robin – and even his age – 38. Did we know that here?

In the documentaries of the shooting shown on TV this year here in France this builder was quoted as having *not* seen any vehicles (motorcars, motorbikes or bicycles) before or behind the BMW.

In the report that NR is drawing our attention to, the builder is being quoted as having seen a green 4×4 and a motorcycle before the BMW.

Getting even more confusing …

3-6-2013 at 23:13:55


re: online maps.

Can we trust online maps?

Can we judge distance on online maps?

Can we say with certainty what can and can not be seen from a road on an online map?

I do not think we can.

I will say this: Google’s map of my avenue is incorrect in that it was taken about 8 years ago. So, someone can look up my address on Google Maps and describe my avenue but it will be completely incorrect.

I think that the only way we will know with certainty what was where (waterfall etc) and what could be seen from where, is for one of us to go to the area and to drive those roads.

Now I am going to do some serial killing as is my habit ………..

3-6-2013 at 23:18:13


Just to make you sharpen your arguments. 🙂

I actually agree with you that the parallell road is problematic. I have thought so all along, but it could be a possible route. That is one thing that I would like to investigate if I ever go there.

But to say that the ONF was far away can’t be true, if they just after the killings were seen by Brett-Martin on the the Route Forestiere.

I also think that if the MC was taking the Route Forestiere deliberately on his way back he was taking a huge risk. If he was any familiar with the area he should have known that the probability to meet someone was highest there (as we already know was in fact the case). He could hardly pretend that he knew nothing about the killings coming from that direction at that time. (If you don’t invent a story like the one Brett-Martin came up with 🙂 )

PS @NR: That Standard story is the usual mishmash that journalists come up with when they don’t care to check even the basic facts.

3-6-2013 at 23:23:29


Comment to Laurent’s changing story …

In his early statements to the media, he [Laurent Fillion-Robin] saw nobody following the Beemer and now he is reported to have seen the elusive speeding green 4X4 plus the motorbike as well going up, not down, the road; long before the Beemer went up the road into the forest. The media put the words into Laurent’s mouth, whether he said them or not.

London Evening Standard link to archive

3-6-2013 at 23:24:20

‘Laurent Fillion-Robin, a 38-year-old builder, also claimed there was no sign of any vehicle following the family. He was working on a house near Chevaline when he saw the maroon BMW drive past between 2.30pm and 3pm.

He told police he had seen a green 4×4 and a motorbike heading in the direction of the crime scene beforehand. Fillion-Robin’s testament points towards an agreed rendezvous between Al-Hilli and his eventual killers — a possibility which may be backed up by the records of two mobile phones found in the BMW.’

1. remember to integrate pictures at 15.15

2. All those english journo’s MISQUOTE LFR (and should return to school, learn french;)

NI moto NI 4×4 🙂

— Max

3-6-2013 at 23:29:22


Yes the builder’s name and age is known, he was mentioned already in the article “Tuerie de Chevaline : les soixante dernières minutes” in Le Journal du Dimanche, even though he is said to be 35 years old there. I also have a photo of him and I believe I know where he lives.

3-6-2013 at 23:40:32


I use quote under to relax the timeline. it actually fits better

‘MARTIN: No, because , if you think back, obviously I was on a hill climb, on that last hill for half an hour, so just at some point you know, midway up the hill, the vehicle, and then a little bit later a motorcycle passed me, quite unremarkable events at the time.’

Check the YELLOW remarks

BM’s ‘a little bit later’ could be say 5-6 minutes, and the ‘4×4 half-way’ fits better.

— Max

3-6-2013 at 23:52:53


We have discussed this many times before. I still think that Brett-Martin’s description of the Route Forestiere sounds very dubious. It sounds more like a tough mountain climb on Tour de France. It is also a dream to be able to cycle that distance. I have been thinking about renting Brett-Martin’s house, up for rent now, would be a perfect base for some trips in the area.

3-7-2013 at 00:22:21


“So, the MC and 4×4 seen by BM coming down are accounted for imho. the 4×4=ONF and MC=X”
“(Ah, always fun to speculate … especially if it all could be true;)”
Ok Max, I think that your theory is very close to the TRUTH. But 4X4 =ONF perhaps is not the good equation.

@oui 1-4-2013 at 13:00:46

 “If the shooter is named Florian B., why do the villagers refer to him as “Cédric?”


Like me, If you try to answer of the oui’s question (and Lynda), you maybe get a surprise!

Sorry to insist.

After this post, I only a visitor and never make a comment. Good luck for all.

God is the Great. Sorry God for use Your Name (twice).

3-7-2013 at 01:12:49


It doesn’t matter what you (and I) ‘think’ or ‘believe’ … I just ‘fit’ pieces. The thing is here that you doubt that BM’s stuff is a ‘piece’. Actually I only use 1 piece of BM, namely the ‘seeing of 4×4 and MC’ (rougly halfway his climb)

But … IF you and I (and the rest) agree on a certain piece (fact) THEN it HAS TO FIT

E.g. I don’t care what any of the elements had for dinner or breakfast. What their background is or what music they like. But things like ‘pictures @ 15,15’ those are real PIECES.

Now just throw away every useless piece, and keep the good one, and FIT those … and be CRITICAL that it has to be a PERFECT fit.

… I’m not PERSE in favor of the ‘parallel road’ … but when confronted with a ‘piece’ which says ‘ONF redirected a MC towards the main road’ … then I simply HAVE TO fit that piece (if I like it or not)

So, be critical. Tell me which piece is not ‘good’ … and tell me about the ‘fitting’ of pieces … what does not fit?

The only piece which is doubtfull is 4×4=ONF … is that 100%? And the ‘weird’ piece is that ONF did not come forward directly … and those are now the only 2 weaklings in this puzzle … Oh, and that I have NO CLUE WHY SM had to be killed:)

… If you follow my posts you will notice I did not bring in many pieces. It is the process of ‘fitting’ which makes my scenario change over time. The (new) elements are, as we all know, very very scarce.

— Max

3-7-2013 at 02:11:09

A few things I am pondering on:-

A statement by EM to the effect that “shots came from the road above”.

Can anyone point to the origin of this statement, particularly the original source in French?

The context may reveal whether he meant “the road continuing up the valley” or as I interpret it, literally “the road above”.

However, if confirmed, it may explain why there appears (to me) to be at least two shots into the BMW from above. One into the roof midway on the nearside, and another ito the windscreen. (As an aside, I seem to remember a suggestion that a shot had been fired from inside the car, upwards, through the roof, but that is a step too far for me, yet.)

What could shooting-started-from-above mean?

Well, from an ambush point of view, one wouldn’t choose it for SM unless one knew he was definately going to stop at Martinet because the panning shot(s) required would be too difficult with a pistol. Ditto SAH.

So, unless the shooter arrived along the road above, found the target there and about to leave, so had to crack on, then it’s a vantage point that only makes sense if the target is definately going to stop at Martinet.

3-7-2013 at 08:40:47


Why won’t you comment in future?

We think highly of you!

3-7-2013 at 08:57:59


(the pictures in this article)

In very short what I think (putting all pieces together):

1. SM was shot first and most
2. AH’s nearly escape
3. X came from behind barrier
4. MC bumps into ONF ‘in the woods’
5. There were ppl who knew that SM was going to Martinet
6. Pictures 15.15 show ‘happy AH family’

1 & 2 says SM might have been prime target
3 & 4 could match if X took alternative approach (my last scenario is a variant)
5 makes ‘planning an ambush’ more credible (but that would be an ambush on SM
6 shows that AH family did seem to be ‘worried’ or ‘expecting trouble’

My ‘method’ is to put ALL known/valid pieces into the puzzle and make them fit. If have NO preference for any solution/target/victim/explantion/motive but a FITTING one

So, do propose a scenario, and we’ll ‘shoot’ on that:) (or do shoot at ‘my’ scenario;)

— Max

3-7-2013 at 08:59:40

Should read: AH family did NOT(!) seem to be worried ….

😉 (edit button??? lol)

3-7-2013 at 09:13:52


re: edit button

Max, if I know how to add one to the comment column I will. But sorry I do not. I, as administrator, am though privileged as I have one, I even have two: a ‘quick edit’ and an ‘edit’, not that I have worked out the difference between the two.

3-7-2013 at 09:16:18


I like your logic

‘In this scenario, strike the “nutter” option. A nutter would have gunned down the ONF forest guys’

To solve a ‘puzzle’ it is also handy (a method) to know what can NOT work, so you can skip it.

Remove stuff which can not work makes the picture more clear.

In this/your case (logic) it is true. The timeline could indicate that MC bumped into ONF (in the woods) BEFORE the killing. A real ‘nutter’ would have emtied his gun on anybody. So ONF should have been his first victim (because at Martinet, X had no problem to fire wildly at anybody including a CAR)

By ruling out the ‘real nutter’ this strengthens the idea that X had a ‘target in mind’.

So, to the ‘give up’ ppl … the ppl who go for the ‘nutter’. Even in the ‘nutter’ case you still have to explain the details. You can’t say ‘Oh, it was a nutter so we dont have to explain anything’

Thx Oui:)

— Max

PS: I feel I’m running out of ideas. But also giving the case a rest for some time and coming back to it, gave me a fresh look. The SAME facts did lead to new variants (imho ‘better’ variants) … But I agree with EM … we need a break, a new clue (and I think that clue has to be found in SM’s past/history/circle)

3-7-2013 at 09:38:13

A minor thing re Laurent the builder:

“A beautiful day. Hot and sunny. It’s a good half hour this Wednesday afternoon as Laurent **, 35, and his young apprentice took over the job after the lunch break. And labour, there to enlarge this small wood chalet, as the portal has taken very late.”
“** First name has changed.”

Why does this paper say they’ve changed his first name when they have not? They never give the last name, Fillion.

What if all the media reports use a cover name (he doesn’t want to be IDd and bothered later) but they don’t bother to explain this?

3-7-2013 at 09:48:31


“Like me, If you try to answer of the oui’s question (and Lynda), you maybe get a surprise!

Sorry to insist.”

Please Bacchus do not feel sorry, but better tell us what you think. I have the strange feeling that you “know” more than you say. At least speculate a bit with us, will you?! 🙂

@Rashomon: Strike from above
I can´t fit that strike from above to the timeline since X would have to run down to lay-by to fire the rest of the shoots to fit them ballistically anyway.

although I like your “X making an Error” theory, I do not buy that he didn´t knew the road. i am assuming that X is local and as such he will have known the probs going on that road. On the other hand X didn´t have much time to plan his attack. I understood that the information that SM would go to Martinet was of the same day or the day before, so no time to plan or practice. hence it was a relatively short planned attack.

do we know of any direct conflicts of SM in the days before the killings? Whom did he meet? Whom did he – maybe – insult?

3-7-2013 at 09:49:50

@ Marilyn : I read some pages where British expatriates living in France help each other. One set of comments was about their fellow Britishers who do not pay tax and do not have French auto insurance on their UK cars. One commenter was so outraged over this he suggested they deface any UK cars they see, by using a marker to draw a square in the corner of the windscreen where the French insurance certificate should be, and write something nasty.

Is this correct? Do tourists need the sticker or only those who stay to live and work? There is no certificate on the BMW. Could this outrage drive somebody to violence — road rage — like Max’s original proposal that a nutter was set off by something innocent like a remark about the quality of French baguettes?

3-7-2013 at 10:09:45


Sometimes obvious details escape out attention. For instance:

The motorbike itself. Suppose X wanted to kill SM. SM is on his bike to Martinet. Now, what is the ‘best’ transport for X?


Bike prolly not as SM was a fast biker and probably an untrained ‘normal’ person (like X) would not be able to keep up (and arrive earlier at Martinet) (Note: BM was on a bike, he couldnt keep up with SM who was much faster than BM)

Car perhaps … but a car is more visible. And how do you follow somebody on a bike with a car? And what about the small roads beyond Arnand/Chevaline. A car would be more visible and SM might suspect something.

But …

A motorbike is perhaps more easy. A motorbike is fast, can go were NO car can go. And this motorbiker was ‘wandering through the woods’ (to do WHAT??)

… You see my point? Follow-SM / Martinet / Woods / Motorbike … they add up

(if you would replace Motorbike with Car or Bike it wouldn’t work so nice)

Perhaps X had to-act/decided quickly once he ‘heard’ that SM was going to Martinet. The plan ‘Motorbike/FollowSM/Woods/Ambush’ seemed a good plan … but he got into trouble executing his plan when in the woods he bumped into ONF

— Max

3-7-2013 at 10:42:17

@Max et al.

Puzzle Analogy:

Sometimes someone by mistake has left a piece of a puzzle in the wrong box. When you then try to solve the puzzle you might get stuck with this piece that will never fit. Could be worse than a missing piece.

I think it is common practise in criminology (: outside France 🙂 that if you find “pieces” that seem very odd, and do not fit in the general pattern, you put them aside, and first try to solve the case without them. Later on when you are pretty sure of the scenario you can look at them again and see if they do fit in or if the ”belong to another box”.

I used this method and put at first Brett-Martin’s testimony aside. I think it is possible to get a pretty consistent scenario without his testimony (see my post on the Le Monde scenario in the previous thread). Some things in Brett-Martin’s testimony are corroborated by this scenario, some things in his testimony remain very strange.

To me Max’s first theory of Brett-Martin’s role in this drama, is still very valid. I think that every normal criminal investigator would think the same.

As long as Brett-Martin was the only person who had seen a car and MC at that road on that day, these vehicles could for the same reasons be seen as “misfits”.

However when Maillaud confirmed that there had been forestry people in that car it became hard to discard that part of Brett-Martin’s testimony so easily. Now we have a situation where:

1. Brett-Martin says he has seen a car and a MC on Route Forestiere

2. Maillaud says that the people in the car has seen a MC, unknown where

3. What the MC-guy has seen we don’t know

It is quite obvious that these statements don’t exactly give a consistent picture. We don’t even know if the car, according to people inside it, ever was on Route Forestiere.

I think two persons are mainly responsible for all the confusion that surrounds this case: Brett-Martin as an alleged witness, and Maillaud as spokesman for the gendarmerie. If these two men had given a coherent statement of what is actually known about the events that day I think that this crime had already been solved.

3-7-2013 at 10:51:07

It should perhaps be stressed that we don’t even know if it was the same MC that Brett-Martin saw and the forestry men saw.

3-7-2013 at 10:51:43

@ Baccus @oui 1-4-2013 at 13:00:46
“If the shooter is named Florian B., why do the villagers refer to him as “Cédric?”

This is related to the shootings at Daillon, Switzerland, that was discussed here. The shooter is mostly named only as Cedric and later in a few places as Florian Berthouzoz. If I recall he was a cyclist or motorbiker, mentally ill, a druggie and local pot dealer.

The Swiss and French claim there was no relation to Chevaline. But why was he called Cedric? Is the name slang for something? Like a nutter?

DAILLON, Switzerland — On Jan. 3, Florian Berthouzoz leaned out his window and opened fire on this tranquil Swiss village with an old military carbine and a 12-gauge shotgun.

There is this music, with murder in the title and a Florian and Cedric in the group.

WE ONLY SAID – CHEERFUL GIRL – Vidéo Dailymotion
… Florian Marzano, Mathias Prime, Cédric Moutier, Matthieu Dehoux, Nathalie Burel, … I DISCOVER THE MURDER by WE ONLY SAID Par florianmarzano.

And this, from some notes, but it is likely only coincidental names — it was related to art gallery or music performance, I think:
Florian Berthouzoz
Cathy Berthouzoz
amem 10 l’apostrope
On April 22, 2011 at 2:25 pm Cedric BERTHOUZOZ said:
Hi Matt, good to read you again. Thank you for giving us informations about Exhilaration.

3-7-2013 at 11:40:58

Sorry, the comment I put above, the Washington Post link should be:
Nothing to see there anyway. And the next one:
Has nothing to do with Cedric or Florian. It’s about horses.

3-7-2013 at 12:11:19

I found no remarks by Eric Maillaud about spot where killer X first started shooting. From timeline of investigation, it would be in an article between 20 and 27 October. A few bits I found about the motorbike and ONF.

Interview Eric Maillaud – L’indice “clé”

Q. Les indices retrouvés sur la scène du crime (douilles, etc.) ont-ils “parlé”?
« Oui, grâce au travail de police scientifique. Je ne souhaite pas en dire plus sur ces éléments. En ce qui concerne les douilles, nous avons identifié le lot de fabrication. Cela représente plusieurs milliers de munitions dont il faut maintenant retracer le parcours boîte par boîte, en allant interroger les armuriers. C’est un travail fastidieux. Les analyses se poursuivent et les techniques évoluent. Nous gardons l’espoir qu’un jour, un de ces indices puisse être exploité et que l’on identifie, pourquoi pas, un ADN. »

LeMatin 05.03.2013, 08h47

La piste locale du tueur fou occupe aussi les enquêteurs, à la recherche d’un motocycliste et de sa moto. «On aimerait bien le voir. Surtout qu’il a été vu et reconduit par les agents de l’OFN (Office national des forêts, ndlr). On l’avait sous la main, mais on n’avait à ce moment-là aucune raison de l’appréhender car nous n’avions pas connaissance de tous les faits. Il se trouvait dans une zone où il n’avait pas le droit de circuler à moto et portait un casque», rappelle Eric Maillaud, procureur d’Annecy.

LeDauphine: Request satellite images

Autre exemple, les satellites : “Des demandes ont été envoyées à toutes les sociétés du Monde pour savoir si un de leurs engins survolait la Haute-Savoie au moment du crime. Nous avons même demandé aux sociétés GPS si un de leurs véhicules équipé de caméras avait pu circuler dans les environs le 5 septembre.” – Enquete au long cours 23.10.2012 à 13:26

Par ailleurs, le 4×4 de couleur verte aperçu par des riverains de la Combe de l’Ire et recherché depuis le drame semblerait appartenir, selon les enquêteurs, aux agents de l’Office National des Forêts qui travaillent dans le secteur.

“C’est vraisemblable, mais il n’a pas été identifié”, a dit le procureur. Quant à la moto également aperçue par les riverains, elle a été décrite avec des détails contradictoires.

“Son conducteur ne s’est pas présenté, elle est toujours recherchée, même si nous n’en connaissons ni la marque, ni la couleur”, a déclaré le procureur. – 14.10.2012 à 11:38

Par ailleurs, le 4X4 de couleur verte que ce cycliste avait vu pourrait être celui d’un garde-forestier de l’Office national des forêts (ONF). “C’est une hypothèse mais il n’y a aucune certitude”, a indiqué Éric Maillaud, ajoutant qu’une moto était toujours recherchée.

Priority to be comprehensive not to have regrets later …

3-7-2013 at 13:25:44


It’s a horse – cheval (fr). Exhilaration is a horse, so you just linked Cedric Berthouzoz to Florian B. from village Daillon to our slaughter of horses. A Swiss conspiracy can’t be complete without recalling the lady in Daillon who reacted to the shooting: “Those kids again, shooting at cats.”

Indeed, in the Washington Post article his family name was revealed – BERTHOUZOZ. A Swiss family name with their own coat of arms. As far as Florian B. being called Cédric by the villagers, on the previous threads Lynda referred to a Swiss guard in the Vatican who committed murder/suicide. This was part of my comment:


Thanks for the link and info about Cédric Tornay.

“The autopsy, the report said, revealed traces of cannibis in his urine, as well as a cyst ”the size of a pigeon egg” in the left frontal lobe of his brain that could have severely impaired his judgement.”

The incident did happen in 1998 at the time the parents of Florian B. split up. The Swiss guard stood in high regard for young men with ambition to such a task.

However, Cédric Tornay‘s mother Muguette Baudat pursues justice for her son and demands a new investigation due to a flawed autopsy report. Pope Benedict XVI has given his consent. Cédric Tornay was a Swiss guard from canton Valais.

3-7-2013 at 13:51:45


re: Brits in France.

NR, I’m not considered one of the Brits anymore,but one of ‘them’ seeing I’ve been here so long now. I suppose I also smell of garlic. Oh gosh, did I really write that?

I think Lynda is the one to reply to you. I will email her and send her your query so she can come and reply.

3-7-2013 at 14:01:07


I like:P (plz continue to be critical)

But you wont catch me on this as I’m ‘master of simplicity’;)

Lets put aside ALL ‘facts’ and just take 1 thing. The ballistics report. The balistics report seems to indicate X came from behind the barrier and we know for sure SM received MOST BULLETS and probably also the FIRST BULLETS.

Now … ONLY taking this ‘fact’ … this MUST lead to assuption that SM had target priority. And in this light it is strange, even plain wrong, to assign so much (far TOO much) budget/manpower to the AH’s.

And if SM was target, there has to be a reason. And that ‘reason’ you will discover when you unravvel SM.

In your words ‘I dont buy it that SM was collateral’ and I didn’t buy it from the earliest beginning.

So, in this light I don’t even need BM. Yes perhaps as X himself … I was on that scenario for some time. But if BM could pull this off alone AND get away with it, the guy would be a half-god or something. Oh, and do NOT teleport extra elements (backup teams etc.) into it to ‘explain’ why BM could have done it. There is NO evidence for this and I started this post with saying that I would work from 1 fact alone … bringing in extra unaccounted elements is called ‘cheating’;)

Ppl ‘cheat’ too much;)

— Max

3-7-2013 at 14:31:35


re: Horse

May I joke, Oui?

“A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!” shouted Richard III.

You know something? Never before have horses played such a large part in my life. And then we also have the horsemeat from Romania scandal – chevaline.

3-7-2013 at 15:06:33


… continued …

And if the puzzle is set, starting from piece 1 (ballistics), we can bring in the next piece. Carefully bring in BM. And the first and most obvious question hast to be:

Is BM = X?

I was on that piece for a long time … couldnt solve the puzzle with BM = X. But in theory it is still possible. However iirc the ‘gun specialist’ overhere explained that a simple ‘gunpowder test’ would expose BM as X very easily

So BM is not X

And then we can bring in piece nbr 3, piece 3 being ‘the statements of BM’

etc. etc.

And continuing on that path I have come to a possible scenario as it is. Without having a clue about the reason behind the killing.

— Max

3-7-2013 at 15:14:14


re: gunpowder test.

Max, this is interesting. However, could a gunpowder test still be done now, six months after the shooting? I always thought that it must be done immediately, or at least before the culprit could have washed his hands.

3-7-2013 at 15:33:43


I just wanted to point out that it is a bit early (sic!) to rule out Brett-Martin completely.

My main concern now is to introduce him and these forestry men into the story without making a mess of the whole scenario. I am still not convinced that it is possible.

FYI: I now think that there were at least 2 persons involved in the planning and perhaps in the execution of this crime. Even though I long ago, in my second short story, tried to show that it was possible for one person to pull it through.

3-7-2013 at 16:02:00


At the risk of upsetting the apple cart I have thought of the following.

What if the secrecy surrounding this case both here and in the UK is because the case might be classified as a ‘Secret d’État’ – State Secret – under any of the Articles from 410-1 to 414-9 which cover crimes and offences (UK English) against the Nation, the State and Public Peace of the French Penal Code. Or under any of the Articles from 421-1 to 422-7 of the Penal Code which cover Terrorism.

Not knowing whether it will be, it is therefore wiser not to reveal too much, or anything about it now. The prosecutor and the examining magistrate will know if the case is going to go that way and will accordingly be prudent.

This does however mean that whoever had a meeting scheduled that day at that place was doing something which would have harmed the safety of France.

I do not know how long documents remain ‘secret’ in France (I could not find it on the Internet), but I know that some WW2 documents still are, for example those about the trials of those who had collaborated with the Nazi occupier.

Maybe our excellent researcher, Oui, can tell us how long documents must remain secret here in France.

3-7-2013 at 16:04:07


re: two persons involved.

Lars, I think so too.

3-7-2013 at 17:25:32

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 3-7-2013 at 16:02:00 @All
“At the risk of upsetting the apple cart I have thought of the following.
What if the secrecy surrounding this case both here and in the UK is because the case might be classified as a ‘Secret d’État’ – State Secret –”

Much speculation on CM is around this. Currently, it is on the possibility that the SAH group possessed a “dossier” on CD or DVD discs that related to politics in Iraq, especially regarding torture, which would be bad for the US/UK if revealed. I can’t follow all of the conjectures because of all the Arabic names and variable spellings as they’re translated into English.

It does not necessarily mean that the SAHs were the prime targets at Martinet. It could be that a lone nutter or someone targeting SM accidentally upset an apple cart and caused much trouble for various secret agencies.

3-7-2013 at 17:35:20


re: State Secret

My mom always said, ‘Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ’.

So the commentators on CM have already thought of this possibility.

Your last para – It does not necessarily mean that the SAHs were the prime targets at Martinet. It could be that a lone nutter or someone targeting SM accidentally upset an apple cart and caused much trouble for various secret agencies – calls for contemplation. It might have been just a local killing as has been written here with Sylvain Mollier as target but Saad Al-Hilli’s background (or activities) has gone and upset the apple cart. So now there are many apples rolling about …

I wonder what Bacchus will think of this ‘state secret’ line of thought.

3-7-2013 at 17:52:28

@ Oui 3-7-2013 at 13:25:44
“@NR : As far as Florian B. being called Cédric by the villagers…”

The riddle that Baccus set was why they called him Cédric? The early reports all said the villagers would only give his name as Cédric, later as Florian B. and finally his full name.

It’s as if the villagers were protecting someone, the family honour maybe, just as the silence from locals about SM. Does Cédric have some meaning locally, some French or German slang. In US black slang there are several meanings for Cédric — a joker, a geek, and others, none of which seem to apply to the Swiss Cédric.

3-7-2013 at 17:58:48


re:Brits in France.

Lynda has asked me to post this on her behalf as she has a problem getting on-line.

She writes : When I first lived in France I kept my insurance going through a UK company because I wasn’t a ‘resident’, I knew many Brits in this position, so effectively they were visitors using a UK address for insurance, as was I for a period, some who remained longer, buying property and declaring a French residence as primary, had their right hand drive cars re-registered giving them a French Number Plate. This did reduce their premiums in France as a longterm stay on British Insurance was dramatically increased.

As for Brits helping Brits, I suppose we did, passing on information, especially when dealing with the authorities and ALLLLLLL the red tape !

My working life in France has been based around tourism and logistics always welcoming ‘les etrangers’, I doubt very much that anyone would be so incensed to kill a family because they weren’t French, nevertheless there is much hatred amongst the French, regrettably even amongst those I am friendly with that have an inate detest of foreigners, especially the English and the Muslims that dress in a more traditional manner.

In reality, the Al-Hillis were just tourists, so they would not have been required to insure the car in France, this alone would not have incited such violence, I still believe that the photos of the family (we are not allowed to see) will reveal a great deal, especially regarding their attire, from the Lambert comment, they were ‘Westernised’, playing boules, been to the second campsite often, only question I have is had the mother-in-law been there before.

3-7-2013 at 18:01:18


Re: Why Cedric.

Come to think of it I do not know anyone called Cedric. (Sorry can’t type the accent.)

I will however go into this Cedric issue because I did at the time of that shooting hear on TV news why he was called Cedric.

3-7-2013 at 18:41:21

There is no upper limit to speculation;)

3-7-2013 at 18:42:07


Let’s for now keep the timeline as set by Max above. It’s based on a truthful witness account by BM. He climbed up to Martinet many times, therefore the spot where the 4×4 passed must be fairly accurate.

From the article above which we have referred to many times, it presents some information about Melvin in forest Droz and mont Benîot [location map] and his father Franck in corner of village Marceau-Dessus. Both claim shots were heard and recognised them as gunshots. Time in article: 15:30 hours. It would be nice if that is accurate, because it’s exact according to my timeline in previous thread. This leads to conclusion BM could not be killer X because he was only halfway up the climb.

[Son is possible because he is close to Martinet higher on the ridge, his father is nearly impossible at 3 km.]

JDD: détonations dans la montagne – 15h30

Melvin, 15 ans, n’a pas vu si les gamines sont allées jouer près de la petite rivière ou si la famille s’est engagée tranquillement dans un des chemins de randonnée qui mènent au mont Benoît ou serpentent entre les sapins du bois du Droz. En totale infraction dans ce parc national protégé, et sans assurance, l’ado crapahute au guidon de sa moto trial, une 125. Il n’a rien vu, mais il a clairement entendu une série de coups de feu. Combien? Il est bien incapable de le dire. “Quand même beaucoup!”, confie, du bout des lèvres, le jeune colosse, qui n’a pas songé une seconde à regarder sa montre. Pas de quoi en tout cas affoler un gamin du massif des Bauges habitué à fréquenter les chasseurs. Ce n’est qu’à l’arrivée des pompiers et surtout des gendarmes que Melvin va prendre conscience que “quelque chose de grave” est arrivé et s’éclipser discrètement en faisant un grand détour pour échapper à tout contrôle.

Franck, le père de Melvin, a comme son fils été surpris par cette série de détonations venues de la montagne alors qu’il était en train de tailler une haie dans un village du coin, à Marceau. “Je me suis dit : ‘C’est bizarre, la chasse n’est pas encore ouverte. Ce doit être des gars en train de tester leurs fusils avant l’ouverture’, rapporte aujourd’hui ce paysagiste. Ce devait être après 15 heures, peut-être sur les coups de 15 h 30…” Que s’est-il passé durant ces trois quarts d’heure, entre la famille anglaise et le tueur?

Bois du Droz, forêt de la commune de Doussard (Pays de Faverges, Haute-Savoie), avec le patronyme Droz, de l´anthroponyme germanique Drogo, « combattant », de *drog, « combattre ».

Acoustics extraordinary: travel of sound is quite complex and is unpredictable. Read the phenomena: Whispering galleries and amphitheaters.

3-7-2013 at 20:43:44

Re: Cédric

See my comment above {link}.

Just a wild guess, Cédric Tornay was a mystery event, the investigation by the Vatican a white-wash and a secret may yet lie in the triple murder. Secrets of Rome catacombs and Vatican archives, perhaps similar to the omerta of the mafia and a contract killing. Fabian B. and Cédric Tornay were from the same canton Vallais. Perhaps Cédric for the villagers of Daillon was synonymous for a killer, murderer.

Like I mentioned, the Vatican is suspect in a cover-up and a wall of silence encourages conspiracy theories. A new investigation is underway sanctioned by pope Benedict XVI.

3-7-2013 at 21:16:32

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

(far out shot, might contain info, dont ask;)

3-7-2013 at 21:28:53

@ Oui 3-7-2013 at 20:43:44 Re: Cédric

Your comment above makes sense. The villagers called Florian Cédric because they expected him to eventually kill as did the other Cédric in Rome. It was a local dark in-joke. As villagers will do when outsiders are prying, they agreed to use this name, saying in effect to “big-city” reporters, “If you’re so smart, figure it out.”

3-7-2013 at 21:44:25


re: hfbi etc

Max, are you speaking in strange tongues now?

3-7-2013 at 21:50:42


re: Cedric

I agree with you.

3-7-2013 at 21:54:09

Sometimes you have a flash idea (call it insight). You have to follow that. Being stuck I thought (in a flash) of chance. The trick is not to think to long but act on this ‘feeling’. The answer can be in the air but you dont see it. You need ‘help’. It is what men always did and do. Oracle, Tarot, I Ching, ‘The Force’ (SW) whatever. So I got this flash, let ‘random’ talk … typed in ‘random letters’ in Google and found … trust the ‘Force’ and give it ONE try (and DONT cheat:). I asked for 8 sequences of 4 letters

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

so far I’ve come up with:

hj(?) bi (sexual?) a fagot MF to setup ga (guet-apens?) uuu(?) velo bullets

(Use the Force Luke;)

— Max

3-7-2013 at 22:02:11


re: random letters.

I got this jahfj jzsxu mnqgi vqhqq atrjt

I asked for 5 sequences of 5 letters because a Tarot reader once told me my lucky number was 5.

3-7-2013 at 22:11:06

Those are ‘your’ letters;)

I worry about my letters … the relation between ‘Oracle’ and asker excludes others. The given letters only make sense to the asker, as you well know.

(EM should try this, he probably would make more progress than he does now;)

— Max

3-7-2013 at 22:43:11


You seem desperate when looking at random letters. 🙂

Maybe I can give you something more productive to think about. I just found some “new” interesting Facebook profiles that made me think again.

What if Brett-Martin was the “helper”, the person that informed the shooter where Sylvain Mollier was and when the shooter could expect to meet him along Route Forestiere. Perhaps that was what Brett-Martin was doing between 14:30 and 15:30. Localizing Sylvain Mollier along the road from Ugine and then following him from a distance. That could explain several things in Brett-Martin’s behaviour.

I still have a strong feeling that Brett-Martin has stronger ties to the area than he admits. Lynda and I discussed long ago that his second name Martin actually is his wife’s family name and that she might come from, or have relatives in, the area. My new discoveries gave new fuel to these thoughts.

3-7-2013 at 23:12:27


Brett-Martin could then also inform the shooter that there were no people close behind Sylvain Mollier. The shooter could keep an outlook for people from the other direction, from the mountains. So they were then pretty sure that the coast was clear.

What they missed was the possibility that a family in a car could have parked at Martinet.

3-7-2013 at 23:44:12


Quite interesting, I had looked into Brett Martin info on Internet but never got all pieces together. Just some circumstantial evidence of a link to UK spy operations and/or security groups working in the Gulf States.

We were always puzzled by his panic as he rushed down from Martinet, this was out of character as an experienced pilot. Another matter, he took his Silver Fern website down for many months. I would be surprised by a role for BM, in my theory there was more likely a covert role for the ONF forestry guys who went AWOL for several weeks.

3-8-2013 at 00:20:44

I’m more interested in the backgrounds of SM

I dont believe the ‘harmonious’ pictures which is painted (although there appear to be cracks)

– The guy was divorced
– Had now a much younger GF (CS)
– A baby
– Took time off
– Needed money (divorce etc.)
– CS family was not too pleased I imagine

Those things together can be very stressfull. E.g. taking time off but the (younger) wife takes care of the money?? Of course it can be normal, but it could also be frowned upon (esp. by the family) Shouldn’t he work to pay of the divorce? No the guy takes time off and starts to bike??

We all know things can be different then they might seem.

SM was shot very dead. Imho he was the target. There has to be a reason.

If in the end it was all about the AH’s I will surrender and admit I was blind and dumb (and other ppl are much brigther) but now I’m stubborn. Even when EM says 99,9% it is not SM;)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 00:21:11

Aside from BM there are several British people peripherally involved in the story. And as Lars suggests, BM may not be the correct name, or not the name he usually used. I saw one commenter repeatedly refer to him as William Brett, as if it was a clue.

BM was a bicyclist working on his rental property. The builder Laurent was working on a rental property owned by other Brits — don’t recall if their name was ever given. Laurent said he at first thought the BMW was the owners coming to inspect the work.

We have Malcolm Lambert from Manx as a witness, and he says there was another British couple from Norfolk at the campground — never named.

There is another British couple from Manx, Chris and Vanessa Callow, expats who operate a chalet in St Sigismond, south of Annecy, and is quoted: “This is a very low-crime area of France which makes the story all the more shocking.” Chris is a competitive cyclist.

Totally unrelated, but someone who appeared coincidentally in searches, is Paul Tuohy, who owns Le Chatox Holiday Chalet, near Annecy, and is a triathlete and bike rider in spare time. He operates missing persons and drug rehab charities in the UK and at one point teamed up with the McManns re their missing child.

Pete Barnes, the helicopter pilot who died in the crash at Vauxhall, London, was an avid skier in the Haute Savoie.

SAH and his neighbour Gary Aked skied in Italy in 1997. And SAH was also refurbishing a run-down property he owned in France — forget where. Also wasn’t that property once used as a chicken house, either before he bought it or somebody used it for that in his absence?

3-8-2013 at 00:46:25

An old fav returns:)

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

I Hj b a fagot mf to setup ga … velo … bullets … u … u… u

Hayder (Thaher) is a fagot motherfucker to setup an ambush (ga=guet-apens). Velo … bullets (fly) … YOU (AH), YOU (Iqbal), YOU (mother) … velo … bullets

Welcome to the twilight zone;)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 08:14:57

Ola everyone!
Iam here; glad that I didn’t lose my way like SM did.
Following u all as usual.

3-8-2013 at 09:31:01

Max, it is dangerous of us to put sequences of random letters here. The secret services will think we are sending secret messages and when their supercomputers’ coolant overheats from futile attempts to decrypt them, they will send the drones after us. 🙂

3-8-2013 at 09:45:10

@Lars: Re: BM helper

another tweak on your BM being a helper theory: what if BM indeed was a helper but didn´t know of the plan of X to kill SM, but thought, that X “want to have a tough talk with some very clear words without witnesses”? So BM, knowing of SM´s potential wrongdoings – which we absolutely do not of at the moment – helps X. But then it turns out that X has had other plans and BM suddenly sees that he has helped somebody commiting murder and THAT is what makes him panic and very reluctant afterwards.
What do you all think of that theory?

3-8-2013 at 10:01:24


Yes, it could be. The initial idea could be to give Sylvain Mollier a real fright. But all the ammo indicates that at least the shooter had other intentions. I think that Brett-Martin’s panic afterwards was indeed a result of the fact that the shooter had “overdone” it and also killed a family.

This Brett-Martin-scenario could also explain why the ONF-guys never saw Brett-Martin on that narrow road, they never met.

Brett-Martin’s story is based on what the MC-guy told him happened after the murder. How he bumped into these ONF-guys as he was escaping from the scene, and was forced to return to Route Forestiere.

It would give Brett-Martin a convenient “alibi” that he arrived at the murder scene much later than he actually did.

To me Brett-Martin’s story has always seemed “constructed” in a way.
This could partly explain why.

3-8-2013 at 10:15:29


I think it also explains why Brett-Martin was only prepared to give one “staged” interview, in spite of all the money he could earn on additional interviews.

He could only repeat his initial story. If he got any hard questions from a journalist why he had done this or that. He might be forced to change or at least “tweak” his story a bit. It could then easily become even more absurd and start to fall to pieces.

3-8-2013 at 10:34:58


‘This Brett-Martin-scenario could also explain why the ONF-guys never saw Brett-Martin on that narrow road, they never met. Brett-Martin’s story is based on what the MC-guy told him happened after the murder. How he bumped into these ONF-guys as he was escaping from the scene, and was forced to return to Route Forestiere.’

I like!!

You (all) know me. I do care for details;) And above is really clever. I like when somebody poses a ‘possibility’ and with that ALSO EXPLAINS a obscured detail. I tend to pay much more attention to those ‘ideas’;)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 10:43:10

Could also explain why Brett-Martin couldn’t give any description of the car, not even the colour, he had never seen it.

The MC he had of course no wish to describe.

3-8-2013 at 10:46:44

Have to say Lars, because of you explaining the BM-ONF detail (possibility), BM is back in my attention too:P

As said, a long time ago I was after BM too. But I sort of gave up (the ‘gunpowder test’) … My ‘weak’ spot was that I was after BM as X

I’ll certainly give it another go (as a puzzle, because BM tied to a quadruple killing as initiator is hard to swallow)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 11:05:40

BM and HT teaming up? BM bringing in planning/logistics HT bringing in crazyness … 🙂

(BM gives gun to HT, I always wondered how HT could have a gun, smuggled through customs … but ahh, I’m dreaming … your fault Lars:P)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 12:39:33

I just posted at Craig Murray:
Take a look at this. It is a blog in Polish, from Oct 2012, and under the heading “Standard Blonde” is a long list of names, many of them hyphenated, and in the list are, in sequence:

Wissam al-Hassan

Plus a mix of of many other middle eastern names. Seach-in-page for Mollier. What is it? Bike race results? 🙂 I have seen that name “Standard Blonde” in relation to something else.

3-8-2013 at 12:47:37

@Lars @All

Sorry for the delay in my answer, but I was going through my PC archive and picked up some loose ends (for later).

This scenario has been part of the discussion in September/October because of the combination Areva/Cezus employee – SSTL satellite imagery plus his AMS 1087 – former RAF instructor/pilot and his Silver Fern Ltd. BM has taken down his LinkedIn profile, which was published on the web multiple times.

The shock and panic would be explained in the first realization the SAH family was caught in the crossfire and massacred.

My old comment: 10-26-2012 at 10:58:34

Worthwhile not to forget about William Brett Martin?

As about the pose during the BBC interview, remember listed in business profile, well trained in Communications and stress management. Is combination possible of killer X escaping with weapon and BM as accomplice and forensics cleaner? He could truly have been shocked when he arrived at the (premeditated) murder scene and its devastation. He needed time to collect his senses and was well prepared for the police interview in Annecy and later the one time BBC interview. Staged? Problem is, he was immediately hailed as a hero …

3-8-2013 at 13:59:48

I think that Polish blog I linked above lists names in the news just to get search hits. But why so many from the middle east?

3-8-2013 at 14:24:05


If BM made up stuff I’ll outline my thoughts as follows:

ONF saw MC
MC talks to BM
BM states he saw ONF … on the road!
ONF state they did not see BM

How did BM knew ONF was ‘on the road’? (ONF does not deny that part … because if ONF was NEVER on the road, then BM would have been exposed as a liar)

So BM knew ONF was on the road without seeing it himself so BM must have gotten this info from MC

So, MC meet ONF in the woods, but also know ONF was ‘on the road’

Perhaps this is explained best as follows:

MC bumps into ONF in the woods. ONF redirects MC to the road. ONF ‘follows’ MC to that road. Once on the road MC goes UPHILL towards Martinet and ONF go DOWNHILL dir. Chevaline (in this case MC might have known ONF was ‘on the road’)

Furthermore, because MC was seen by ONF, it is of no use for BM to deny this aspect. But would he ‘help’ the police? Imho he would do the opposite …

.. He tells that MC went dir. Chevaline whereas in reality MC might have escaped via Col de Cherel

… the big problem (for me now) is WHEN all this happened and what the exact movements of the elements really were (nice puzzle)

But as said, I find the ‘BM saw ONF, ONF did NOT see BM’ very important. So small detail (a detail EM might overlook), yet perhaps crucial. It deserves attention! 🙂

— Max

3-8-2013 at 14:29:16

will below somewhat develop my Brett-Martin-scenario.

In this scenario it is assumed that Brett-Martin, for some reason, had agreed to assist when the shooter deals with Sylvain Mollier. Brett-Martin is then probably a long time friend, possibly through his wife, to the local person who wants to get rid of Sylvain Mollier.

Brett-Martin’s role is then to follow Sylvain Mollier and inform the shooter of Mollier’s position and that the coast is clear. Since I work with radar and radio communication I propose that they used some simple radio equipment to communicate (to avoid mobile phones). The shooter could be waiting somewhere up on the mountain slopes surrounding Martinet (to wait on Martinet would not be recommended anyway because he could then be seen by a passer-by). This would also allow for reasonable good radio communication, at least at short range (Chevaline area). The communication could also be very simple, Brett-Martin just repeating that everything is ok and that the coast is clear.

Brett-Martin’s role could also have been to help the shooter to remove the body and the bicycle after the killing. I have always wondered how the shooter planned that. To leave him lying there on the road would mean a huge risk. If somebody suddenly turned up as your were leaving the scene, how could you explain that man lying there?

Perhaps they planned to dump him somewhere in the terrain just so it took at least some hours before he was discovered. To drag a dead full-grown man is not easy, it would be a lot easier with an assistant.

So Brett-Martin leaves his home at 14:30, probably correct because he could always fear that one of his neighbours has seen him leaving. He cycles in the direction of Ugine and waits for Sylvain Mollier to turn up. Meanwhile the shooter is taking up his position in the mountains. Brett-Martin follows Sylvain Mollier to Chevaline, and communicates this to the shooter. The shooter prepares himself to go to Martinet. As said above Brett-Martin could also inform the shooter that nobody was following Mollier and that the coast was now clear.

What then happened at Martinet I have described above (Le Monde-scenario).

However, Brett-Martin, was not so far behind Sylvain Mollier but arrived at Martinet when the killings were still going on, or maybe were just over. The shooter was still at the scene. Brett-Martin could of course see that all their planning had gone awry. His actions, e.g. to turn off the car’s engine seems then to me more adequate. It was no longer of any use to try to hide any bodies or collect any casings. Brett-Martin and the shooter probably changed some words, Brett-Martin perhaps told him to get the hell out of there. The shooter escaped via the parallell road.

Brett-Martin tried to tidy the place up somewhat, moved the bodies as described etc., and then decides to leave the scene by going back on Route Forestiere. He was however unlucky and met
Philippe Didierjean and his two girl-friends just a few hundred meters away from Martinet.

The shooter was also unlucky and bumped into the forestry men.

Brett-Martin was later informed by the shooter what had happened. Based on what he had seen on Martinet and what he had heard from the shooter Brett-Martin constructed his testimony, careful that his testimony would agree with everything that the police could check.

3-8-2013 at 14:34:46


Hello! Glad you made it over here.

3-8-2013 at 14:34:57

This combined Brett-Martin – Le Monde – scenario also makes the time-line less tight.

3-8-2013 at 14:36:12


re: random letters.

I can see them running around chasing their tails right at this moment trying to work out what these secret message are.

3-8-2013 at 15:09:08


‘Brett-Martin was later informed by the shooter what had happened.’

Is that possible?

At Martinet BM and X spoke. Then X left and BM never saw him again … because BM bumped into PD and did stick around until resuers came, and later the police. I don’t think BM had a chance to speak to X.

So, in that case ‘How did BM know about ONF??’

But I do realize BM spoke of a 4×4. Which he could have INVENTED.

Otoh, if MC/X would have bumped into ONF BEFORE the killings, MC/X and BM could have set their stories straight at Martinet. But in that case there is work to do on the timeline/position. For now I can not 100% envision/account-for all movements.


3-8-2013 at 15:29:26


Glad you answered your own query, I fully agree, just news items of the day/week … many items are suthors/novelists/art-culture or news/sports headlines.

Naguib-Mahfouz – Egyptian novelist and Nobel Prize Laureate – a moderate voice nearly killed by a jihadist
Sylvain-Mollier – murdered
Suhaila-al-Allaf – murdered
Wissam al-Hassan – General in Lebanon assassinated by carbomb on Oct. 19, 2012

Abdallah-al-Barghash Joël-Cornette Jean-Echenoz Hoda-Barakat Salazie
Var Johann-Chapoutot prison de Clairvaux Sirpa-Terre Neuhof

Don’t be too eager and jump to conclusion following a google search!

3-8-2013 at 15:58:09


I see a number of possibilities.

If, as you say above, the MC went back, uphill Route Forestiere, after he met ONF he must have met Brett-Martin again, and could have told him then what had happened. Would be quite smart, if it was possible.

If he went downhill towards Chevaline, after he met ONF, he could easily have gone over Lathuile and left a note there (I don’t know if Brett-Martin was allowed to go home, before he went to the police).

Or they could have communicated electronically somehow before Brett-Martin was interrogated.

Remember Brett-Martin was regarded as a hero not a suspect.

3-8-2013 at 16:33:11

Damn Lars, you’ve ‘reset’ me completely:P

3-8-2013 at 16:35:21

@Max @Lars

Please. Hold your chevals (horses)! 😉

You are losing me if we casually throw out Brett Martin’s testimony, that’s where the timeline was based on.

Have we established the correct time and in which direction the motorbike was seen at Col du Cherel, could the rider have been Melvin on his 125cc track bike? He stated when the sirens started and the helicopter was flying over, he decided to leave the area (mont Benîot and bois du Droz) by a great detour so not to be apprehended. Thus, for a local guy escape was certainly possible.

I do believe BM’s testimony in interview he saw the 4×4. What is strange for him not to recognize the car as an ONF vehicle! He was familiar to area and surroundings. His statement he was leaned over and didn’t notice is hardly convincing: small road, difficult to pass, full of potholes, steep climb, speed of a jogger, perhaps standing on pedals. The ONF forestry guys need to explain why they were lost for three weeks, knowing of the quadruple murder, media circus and their presence around the time the killing took place.

Furthermore, both parties –BM and PD- were taken to the location at Martinet by Eric Maillaud to find the correct timeline and activities. BM most likley had to explain why he didn’t hear the gunshots and Melvin did while he was goofing arouns on his 125cc motorbike nearby. Thus the evidence given by Brett Martin has been scrutinized for the investigation.

3-8-2013 at 17:06:22


Never be afraid to go back to the ‘basics’ an re-verify. That is the only way to see if you might have ‘missed’ a detail.

The timeline in principle has only 2 FIXED timestamps

15.15 AH pictures in Doussard
15.48 PD makes phonecall

Furthermore we can assume BM is not X (killer, because of ‘gunpowder test’) so there has to be X too.

We can assume Zainab saw X
We know (ballistics) that X came from behind barrier

The rest, I’m afraid is open for re-examination, at ealst by me:)

— Max

3-8-2013 at 17:48:21

I´d like to add that it is impossible to go up the road in “no” time which means that SAH was at Martinet 15.25 earliest (10 mins. to get in the car and go up there is a very short time, BTW do we know if the time stamp in the camera is correct or if it is London time which is 1 hour earlier, so it would be only 14.15 when the photo was taken).
Getting down fom BM to meet PD and talk to him took also at least 5 mins. So BM left Martinet 15.43 earliest. It´s still very tight.

3-8-2013 at 18:54:48


خوشحالم از اینکه هنوز نزدیک و حمایت است. بهترین آرزوها و سلامت خوب را به همه شما عزیزان.

من می خواهم به بیان امید من به درد و رنج مردم در سوریه در حال حاضر به پایان خواهد رسید. دلخراش این است که برای دیدن خانواده های خراب و کودکان است.

3-8-2013 at 18:59:32

Surely the timings on the camera will have had the different hour taken into account, in other words if the setting was UK 15:15, then that would be 16:15 in France, we are + one hour not – . The only way they would have established this was by looking at the camera timestamp, every time I take the batteries out of mine to recharge the timestamp needs to be entered again, including date – so if a charge had been needed chances are it was reset to French time.
@RiffRaff, I’m confusing myself but right now it is 18:56 in France and 17:56 in the UK.

Very interesting to catch up on the new comments, we remain with more questions than answers.

@Max – I recall that the ONF said that the motorbike was seen ABOVE Martinet ……

3-8-2013 at 19:43:04


I am pretty sure it wasn’t “the giant” Melvin who was seen at Col de Cherel. As I understand it he was fixing and riding his trial motorcycle on the mountain slope opposite to Martinet, quite near his home, Col de Cherel is pretty far away.

I am not throwing Brett-Martin’s whole testimony in the bin, I am just suggesting that it is partly based on facts and partly not “the whole truth and nothing but the truth”. Mainly I am suggesting that he never saw the ONF-car and MC in the way he says, i.e. he knows it happened but he never saw it.

Nice to see you here again!

3-8-2013 at 20:30:14

Let’s not forget excellent post by Eugene on 12-8-2012 at 15:08:10.
Hits the subject matter at hand right on!

From recent articles/posts, another sure fact has surfaced. The ONF forest guys met MC on the parallel route, IMO no doubt whatsoever. In the article it was clearly written: chemin de la Combe d’Ire where there was a no-entry for motor vehicles enforced. See comment by Eugene, one has to account for the SAH family driving from Doussard to Martinet. I believe that 15 minutes is normal for the journey and on the small road an average of 15kmh. SAH was sightseeing and made slight detour, passed by house of Sylvie Lecoeur on Chemin du Moulin and traveled via Route du Moulin towards climb.

TIMETABLE includes SAH journey

Murder took place at 15:35 hours +/- 2 min.

15:35 SM Ar. start of killing
15:22 Martinet Ar.
15:20 ONF 4×4

15:35 MC starts killing
15:28 Martinet Ar.
15:26 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:25 Halfway climb
15:22 Via Route du Moulin begin climb

15:35 Martinet
15:29 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:25 Halfway climb
15:15 Begin climb at sign

15:43 Martinet
15:35 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:33 Meets MC below Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:30 ONF 4×4
15:18 Begin climb at sign

ONF – Down
15:20 MC
[ONF stays put for 5 min. perhaps listen to motorbike across stream up on the ridge]
15:28 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:30 Meets BM halfway climb
15:33 Begin climb at sign

MC – Down
15:38 Martinet Departs
15:39 Meets BM near Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:40 Halfway climb
15:42 Begin climb turns right on Route du Moulin

15:50 Martinet
15:48 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:47 Halfway climb
15:44 Begin climb at sign

3-8-2013 at 20:46:49


Hi stranger .. Max gave link to recent article (27/2) on previous thread:

Les enquêteurs sont ainsi toujours à la recherche d’une moto qui s’était aventurée le jour des meurtres sur des sentiers forestiers, et qui avait été reconduite dans le chemin de la combe d’Ire par des agents de l’ONF (Office national des forêts).

«Il est certain qu’on voudrait parler au conducteur de cette moto, même si cela ne veut pas dire que c’est le tueur», a indiqué Eric Maillaud.

This initiated a new discussion about the timeline.

3-8-2013 at 21:09:04
3-8-2013 at 21:13:27

Quoted from above article :

‘Une seule manque cruellement à l’appel. Le motard qui, le jour du drame, s’était aventuré sur les sentiers forestiers en haut du col avant d’être reconduit par des agents de l’ONF (Office national des forêts) sur la route de la combe d’Ire. Celle-là même empruntée en sens inverse par les victimes. “Il était là dans (sic) les moments des faits. On aimerait vraiment pouvoir l’entendre, commente le procureur. Ceci étant, cela ne veut pas dire que nous avons affaire au meurtrier”. “Mais cela ne veut pas dire l’inverse”, assure un enquêteur.’

3-8-2013 at 22:17:03


re: Metrofrance

Thanks Lynda for sharing this with us.

Yes, the motorcyclist. So visible in this case because of his absence.

3-8-2013 at 22:21:20


Reading the Metro article, I’m less impressed by the reporter. It seems to me sloppy writing with a summary of content we have read before. The article Max found gives me the impression of a reporter closer to the case with a more precise account. The Metro article about the motorbike seems to rehash the earlier sighting at Col de Chérel [elevation chart] of a motorbike. Didn’t Eric Maillaud indicate the possibility of 2 or 3 motorbikes …

«Ce qui intrigue bien plus les gendarmes, c’est cette moto franchissant le col de Chérel dans la soirée du drame, toujours recherchée.»

My reaction 19|10|2012
The mountain track which starts in a place called Martinet and leaving it (Chevaline) in reverse direction. Thus not leaving the parking lay-by in normal direction downward towards village of Chevaline but passing barricade and taking mountain track. Seen at 16.00 hours, thus approximately a half hour since the shooting which corresponds fairly well.

“L’exploitant agricole, installé de longue date sur le col dont il connaît chaque recoin, a « suivi du regard un moment » cette moto qui, selon lui, « montait de la Savoie vers la Haute-Savoie ».

Un sens qui ne correspondrait pas à la fuite de l’assassin car ce dernier a sans doute emprunté la piste de montagne qui part du lieu-dit du Martinet, quittant Chevaline en sens inverse.”

3-8-2013 at 22:25:42


re:Metro reporting

Oui, Metro is a free newspaper. They often use journalism students. So think of it this way: they are giving young people with a dream a chance.

3-8-2013 at 23:43:50

@Marilyn Z.

Not very useful as a source when the investigation is already riddled with misinformation by the “professional” MSM.

Thanks and happy hunting tonight.

3-9-2013 at 00:31:27

Ok, I am forced to go back because you turn around.

I have a suspect.

This suspect is the result of my research on the Internet, sitting on my sofa. Just speculation, I have no proves, ZERO PROVES, understand ? I do not want to be Icarus.

I respect the law, “La présomption d’innocence est le principe selon lequel toute personne qui se voit reprocher une infraction est réputée innocente tant que sa culpabilité n’a pas été légalement établie. “.

I can not say his name, because it is pure speculation on my mind. But the profile fits very well in this case.

I need your help.

What is the profile of the killer?

3-9-2013 at 00:52:27

I’ve been ‘reset’ and start from zero:)

I prey to God that at least the 1515 pictures and 1548 PD call are fact:)

I’ll take another approach this time, to rebuild the ‘timeline’ here

‘La piste forestière jusqu’au parking du Martinet fait 3,3 km. Une route avec de nombreux virages, mais surtout en très mauvais état et avec des ornières géantes. Un parcours que l’on effectue en dix à douze minutes au mieux. Philippe, qui a passé le coup de fil pour appeler les secours, est chronodaté à 15h48.’

If I use 10-12 minutes for PD and AH to be at Martinet … and take into account 3-4 minutes for AH to reach the ‘sign’ after taking pictures at Doussard. AND assume killer X escaped via RouteForestiere AND assume X drove faster downhill than PD/AH uphill … it JUST fits

Shooting is pinpointed at 15:30

There simply is no more time available. Otherwise PD would have seen the escaping X on RouteForestiere

Shooting must have started on arrival of AH. Again, there is simply no more time available.

The only way to relax the timeline is by assuming that X took a different escape route (or that BM=X)


3-9-2013 at 01:11:20

@ Max

Thanks for all your work and excellent presentation, always very helpful.

I’ll study the timeline on Saturday.

3-9-2013 at 01:46:39


See Marilyn’s friend …
@ Zak Martin Psychic profiler, psychologist & author

Attempting to club someome to death strikes me as something that someone might do who was used to killing animals – a farmer, perhaps, or a hunter. [or a woodsman, survivalist? – Oui]

So why haven’t they issued a wanted description based on her statement? Again, the usual reason for not making a description public is because the police already know the identity of the perpetrator. The only other possible reasons for not issuing a description are ineptitude and bowing to political pressure.
By the way, there is another angle to these murders that everyone seems to have completely overlooked. But I think I should probably leave that for another post….

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS – Worthwhile to reread his lenghty comment on a early thread – here. Advise: search page for “Zak Martin” or see time stamp 9-21-2012 at 22:25:46.

3-9-2013 at 09:45:23

Sorry that was Farsi not Arabic. Both languages share the same letters but they are totally different.
More like English & French.
Following u all as usual.


3-9-2013 at 10:27:13


Just wanted to say how deeply sad I am for the religious tension between Sunni and Shia. The conflict within Iraq –center Shia holy city Karbala– and destruction has spread to a region from Tunisia through Syria to the Persian Gulf. My heart bleeds as I see the suffering of many people. It’s like living through Europe’s religious wars of medieval times.

3-9-2013 at 11:54:14


I like to read your comments made when I was serial killing in the night.


Zak Martin can not actually be described as a friend in the usual meaning of the word. He contacted me last year because he was reading our comments and had read something I’d written about the death of Princess Diana and he felt that he had to warn me not to write something like that. That was kind of him and I appreciated it. Thanks for referring Bacchus back to Zak’s profile of the killer.


Nice to see you are back. This blog is like eating peanuts, is it not? You think you’ve had enough, but your hand keeps on reaching for another nut in the bowl. Oh, by the way, my use of the word ‘nut’ is not a pun. OK?

It is terribly unfair to tell us you know who’d done it and then to leave us ‘up in the air’. I do however understand why you can’t tell us. Can you maybe give us an initial? Just one little initial?


re: Religious wars.

My French ancestors fled from France in the 17th century (1688 when the Edict of Nantes was revoked) because they were Protestants and were being persecuted (hunted down and killed) by France’s Catholic rulers and clergy. Three French presidents – Chirac, Sarkozy and now too Hollande) have apologized for the role France had played in the Holocaust. Hollande has also apologized for France’s behavior in Algeria when that country was a French colony. But no French leader has as yet apologized for what France had done to her Protestants. That is an apology I would like to hear!


I echo Oui’s gratitude for the excellent work you are doing here. Thank you!

3-9-2013 at 13:53:23

@Marilyn Z.

Reading the profile again, I recognize Zak’s ability to filter out the noise and make some astute analysis. Wish he would dot the “i”s by finishing his profile. More facts will not be forthcoming from EM’s investigation.

I’m thrilled Bacchus is onto something, but let’s not seduce him/her for revelations during his/her “Odyssey”. Perhaps only a little whisper into Marilyn’s ear via email?? 🙂

I also hope we can get some input/theory on possible motive for the (multiple) murders.

3-9-2013 at 14:06:22

How can we help you? Maybe give us two Links to articels with persons having partly the same name. So we have the task to combine the right names. Is that an idea?

3-9-2013 at 14:08:54


I am glad to know that Zak so impressed you all. He did me too. I did ask him last year to top up his analysis, but he did not reply. Maybe he will read this and feel now that he can speak to us again.

Bacchus is our hero! I can’t put pressure on him though. He knows my email address from my website (like you all do) so if he feels he wants to ‘talk’ he is welcome to do so.

3-9-2013 at 14:14:09

@Bacchus, you no doubt believe as do many of us that this is a local crime. You only need look at Facebook to see the treatment metered out to big game to understand that there are many candidates that ‘fit the profile’.

I thought I’d look at what the Craig Murray site was up to – we obviously are far lesser souls than they because in general we don’t follow a conspiracy theory, even our NR refers to us as like trying to solve an Agathie Christie story, a little respect, please. There is no proof that either train of thought is correct, no matter how many ‘connections’ get made – if you knew me, you’d understand that I can be linked to Obama, with less than six degrees of separation and therefore many more. You will always find something when you are looking for it.

That last statement alone brings me to Eric Maillaud, as Max has said, look in the other direction and you’ll never find what you are looking for – this is deflective to stop anyone looking closely at the KNOWN suspect.

I, like Max, even after a little wobble, believe that the gunman was local, I say was as I’m not convinced he’s still alive.

Brett Martin/William Brett had nothing to do with the crime, but he isn’t telling the truth about what he saw, I just get the feeling that he was hiding somewhere, so he witnessed more than he’s letting on. The ONF guys are up to their necks in it, they didn’t come forward earlier in proceedings as they did not see anyone on their way back down to base, so believed they’d gotten away with it/their involvement.

I remain convinced that their were two motorbikes, excluding our giant adolescent.

3-9-2013 at 14:18:05


re: CM

I do not read CM. I am therefore unaware that we are being mocked there. So I say come on NR – What you up too?!

3-9-2013 at 14:40:37

@All – and with the hope that NR reads this.

As I said, I do not read the comments on Craig Murray about Chevaline. Lynda’s ‘Agatha Christie’ comment made me go there. I therefore wish to paste here what I’ve just read there: comments by NR and another of Craig Murray’s commentators.

Here goes:

A Marlin wrote on 2 mai 2013 at 5.25 am:
NR – 12:58 AM – thanks for all the updates from MZT. I am checking. BTW, I saw lars’ “reconstruction” of the Chevaline killings – he and Marilyn seem to be a tag team. Am tempted to do some deconstruction over there, but I think I’ll resist (for now). There are more holes in that recreation than bullets in an old Swiss gun’s chamber.
I have noticed that the one thing they don’t seem to talk much about is the strong evidence of a cover-up – all state sanctioned. No one addresses the mysteries of the disappearing histories of the victims or the non-existence of photos. Some on that blog – including the owner – seem rather eager to jump on the “lone gunman beyond the barrier” theory. I wonder why, when that is just about the least likely scenario. there must be a reason some are so much keener than others to trust one seriously hapless “investigator” Eric Maillaut. Curious to know what you think (don’t worry NR, you can tell me – i promise to keep it a secret – can always bury in one of Tim V or my interminable – but grammatically correct – sentences. Who would ever think to look? our secret fans?).

NR replied as follows:

Marlin 2 Mar, 2013 – 5:25 am
“NR – 12:58 AM – thanks for all the updates from MZT.”
I think the group at MZT is much more into solving an Agatha Christie type mystery, see what fits and what doesn’t. They also have a weapons expert or two over there. The lone nutter theory has been proposed and discarded and re-proposed several times.
Now the consensus is the killer was the on the motorbike. They rarely get into geo-politics and some that read Craig Murray from time-to-time say they can’t make sense of our stream-of-consciousness approach, considering everything and anything.
They did get into the changeable web pages, but mostly in regard to SM and relatives in France. I don’t think anyone trusts what EM says anymore than over here at CM, but they appreciate that at this point, under the French system, he is essentially a PR spokesperson for the two judges running the investigation.
Who knows what the motives are for changing reports on the direction of the investigation. Just to give the media something to quote, or is EM being directed by the judges or higher-ups?

So, our commentators now knows what NR thinks and says about us.

NR, I’ve had a problem with one of Craig Murray’s commentators before – a proper nutter – and I do not wish to have another. We welcomed you here. We respected your comments. When you asked us a question we replied to the best of our knowledge. The latest was when you asked about British cars in France, and as I did not know, I asked Lynda and she replied.

You can remain here with us, but only if you respect us as we respect you. The choice is yours.

3-9-2013 at 14:41:26

@Marilyn – I just popped in to look, I’d like to correct my last post, One of those involved is dead, someone who knew the plan and didn’t have the constitution to continue with the deception, the killing of so many was never planned.

3-9-2013 at 15:18:24


Who is the dead person? I mean thats a strong claim. So let is Partizipation in what you know or tell us why you can’t.

3-9-2013 at 15:25:07


So, we are a “tag team”! LOL
Are we to feel honoured ot insulted? 🙂

3-9-2013 at 15:37:29


Mustn’t you put Sylvain Mollier also in your timeline (even though we know very little about his “timetable”)?

3-9-2013 at 16:14:13


“One of those involved is dead.”

Great news, how certain is your statement as fact? This could be the start of a break-through once you create deadly animosity. Is the motive in the personal, financial or intelligence sphere?

One link Ieft untouched is the international protest movement, centered in France CriiRad. I have touched on it and found several links to a Sylvain Mollier. CriiRad is heavily involved in research of nuclear pollutions on sites within France e.g. Aréva, hostage taking and also the uranium mines in Niger (France troubles in neighboring Mali).

In March 2001, the Company was notified that certain workers at CEZUS’ plant in Ugine, France were engaged in a work slowdown related to wage and benefit issues. CEZUS performs certain melting and forging operations on a contract basis for TIMET Savoie.

Regulatory and Environmental Matters.
The Company uses and manufactures substantial quantities of substances that are considered hazardous or toxic under environmental and worker safety and health laws and regulations. at the Company’s Henderson, Nevada facility, the Company produces and uses substantial quantities of titanium tetrachloride, a material classified as extremely hazardous under Federal environmental laws.

Plus a cryptic comment here to the Chevaline killings:
Par 82ndAirborne
30 | 10 | 2012 à 07:39
CriiRad…reprends l’affaire à zéro…ça va être vite expédié….

3-9-2013 at 16:56:19

“It is terribly unfair to tell us you know who’d done it and then to leave us ‘up in the air’. I do however understand why you can’t tell us. Can you maybe give us an initial? Just one little initial? “Your Comments

Four months ago I had a suspect (s), I thought the ONF’s guards were directly involved in this case. I made a mistake. And I do not want to make another mistake.

“I’m thrilled Bacchus is onto something, but let’s not seduce him/her for revelations during his/her “Odyssey”. Perhaps only a little whisper into Marilyn’s ear via email?? “

I do not need it,

Oui and all are sufficiently insightful to discover who I think.

Oui already know where my suspect lives, have even said the name of the village.

Oui asked a question that took me to the suspect. The question is important, but the response is insignificant (daillon) for our case.

“How can we help you? Maybe give us two Links to articels with persons having partly the same name. So we have the task to combine the right names. Is that an idea? “

Yes, it’s a good idea.

Answer the question about Daillon (Oui´s question).

“Bacchus is our hero!”

With all due respect, you like provoke. I understand.

This case is serious, I just want to find the TRUTH, as all. If there is a hero, are all. Because past six months are still searching for the truth. And let’s get together.

Regarding my suspect, I do not want to make a mistake again, I can not incriminate an innocent person, that’s why I need your help.

3-9-2013 at 17:30:32


re:tag team

Meaning: A team of two or more wrestlers who take turns competing against one of the wrestlers on another team, with the idle teammates waiting outside the ring until one of them is tagged by their competing teammate.

Let us be flattered, Lars.


No, you are quite right: you can’t accuse an innocent man.

I try to get info from people, Bacchus. Maybe it will look like provocation.


re: the village

Oui, name the village Bacchus mentioned again, please, so we can put our thinking caps on.


re: dead man

(1) Did he die that day?
(2) Was he shot?
(3) Did he die in a car accident?
(4) Did he die much later?
(5) Of natural causes?

3-9-2013 at 18:07:58

Comment by Bacchus on 3-7-2013 at 00:22:21

@oui 1-4-2013 at 13:00:46
“If the shooter is named Florian B., why do the villagers refer to him as “Cédric?

3-9-2013 at 19:17:45


Here the original comments from Lynda and myself.

3-9-2013 at 19:18:56

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 3-9-2013 at 14:18:05
“@Lynda re: CM. I do not read CM. I am therefore unaware that we are being mocked there. So I say come on NR – What you up too?!”

My apologies. I didn’t mean the Agatha Christie remark as mockery, but to explain to Marlin at CM that over here at MZT, the discussion is much more focused on details directly related to the local scene — Max’s excellent detailed timings, for example.

Whereas at CM the discussion is much more free-ranging — anything and everything considered — many, many red herrings, dead-ends and cul de sacs — unrelated things that “might” be related to Chevaline, but usually aren’t. As Oui pointed out, many of our comments at CM aren’t well researched, but sometimes they jog another commenters memory about a possible connection to Chevaline.

Because CM is a progressive, generally pro-Palestinian blog (even more so in other threads than the al Hilli one) anti-Zionist sentiments are more acceptable over there.

Wait until somebody over at CM reads this and complains I’m mocking them over here. 🙂

I occasionally make ref to CM over here and vice versa, when I think there might be some new info the other has overlooked. Sort of cross-pollination.

3-9-2013 at 20:07:16

@ NR
appologies accepted from my side. as far as I am concerned, please go strong with us

@ Bacchus
I am afraid, but I do not quite get the point in your very careful argumentation. If you have an idea of the person that you think could have done it, please share at least the argumentation with us in a”Max`like way”, meaning “simple, straight forward”. I think we´ll then be able to share the risk of accusing anybody wrongly or help you not to do so.
We´ve all been very carful but clear on the people we think could be involved.
I´ll be more than happy to help in any possible way to overcome obstacles.

3-9-2013 at 20:10:20


could you please repeat the question Bacchus is referring to? Many thanks!

3-9-2013 at 21:25:08


This was in a previous thread where Lynda and I discussed the triple murder in Daillon, canton Valais in Switzerland.

Comment by Bacchus on 3-7-2013 at 00:22:21

@oui 1-4-2013 at 13:00:46
“If the shooter is named Florian B., why do the villagers refer to him as “Cédric?

Here the link to original comments by Lynda and myself. []

3-9-2013 at 21:47:19

Take a look at this timeline

I started at zero again (I have no problem with that) with only 1515 Pictures and 1548 PD as fixed facts.

In this I want to check BM statements. I start with 1 statement (1 step at a time) and check what ‘logic’ can tell us.

BM stated he ‘saw MC about halfwayish, coming down from dir Martinet’

Now, what can logic + facts tell us:

– This MC is not Melvin on his 125cc (we can safely assume this)
– This MC did NOT come forward
– Because of ‘not coming forward’ we assume he IS Killer X

Note: BM did not say he saw the ‘killer’ on a motorbike. How could he. So he mentiones A motorbike. But as there was a killing and MC did not come forward we are probably looking at the killer … that is IF BM speaks the truth (that is what we are testing here)

So I did put ‘BM sees MC/X’ at 15:34 (there is a very limited time window for this meeting)

Still no problem. But now … logic will tell us the following

– BM states he ‘saw Zainab walking’

But here we have a possible problem because the timeline (in the case BM=truth and sam MC/X) dictates that:

– 15:30 = Zainab beaten down
– 15:45 = Zainab walks! (falls and is unconscious)

Now … is it possible that Zainab, after being beaten down, walks for 15 minutes?? Or Perhaps beaten down, unconscious, get up 14 minutes later and falls down again?

In other words: Is it likely that a 7 yr old girl who was very severly beaten up, is seen walking 15 minutes AFTER being beaten up?

There is no definite answer to this … but it is a FACT if one follows the logic of BM=Truth + MC=X

— Max

3-9-2013 at 22:52:15


“If you have an idea of the person that you think could have done it, please share at least the argumentation with us”

The profil and the proximity. Only this.

3-9-2013 at 23:14:49

I accused practically everybody. But I have no problem with that. It is the same ‘accusing’ as in a Sudoku. I ‘accuse the number 2 to be in the left upper square’;)

Perhaps the word ‘accuse’ should be replcade by ‘assume’ … that fits better. In the sense IF I assume BM to be X … would all pieces fit?

What you can ‘accuse’ me of is to think aloud. But otoh, If nobody would think aloud we wouldn’t have a forum:)

(but I’ll check out the ‘Bacchus’ stuff … but I’m lazy too;)

— Max

3-9-2013 at 23:26:30


re: the village
Oui, name the village Bacchus mentioned again, please, so we can put our thinking caps on.”

@Oui 12-12-2012 at 20:08:23
@Oui 03-03-2013 at 07:59:26

3-9-2013 at 23:30:38


Is it probable that the girl walks 15 minutes after she is shot and heavely beaten, and then gets totally unconscious again after just seconds?

No, no, no!

But it is of course possible.

That is the problem with a lot of Brett-Martin’s statements. They seem often very strange, unprobable, sometimes even absurd. But that is one thing, to prove that he is lying is however very hard.

When I encounter statements like that, my reaction is that of doubt. Here is a person who has prepared himself very well, and knows exactly what he is going to say. He knows that noone can prove that he is lying, and if they don’t believe him is not his problem.

Perhaps Lynda, who has told us of her experience of the truthfulness of the male population in France, also recognizes this type of person.

3-9-2013 at 23:32:30

As said, I’m lazy … thx Bacchus for time timestamps;)

3-9-2013 at 23:33:36

“(but I’ll check out the ‘Bacchus’ stuff … but I’m lazy too;)”

The best programmers are lazy. They always try to find the shortest paths.

3-9-2013 at 23:44:00


Hi, it’s Agatha here. OK, I’m not angry anymore. Will forgive you.

3-9-2013 at 23:49:24

@Oui 12-12-2012 at 20:08:23 is 12-18-2012

3-9-2013 at 23:50:43


For the first time tonight do I think that we are getting close to solving this case. This is due to Bacchus.

Maybe Agatha will write a book – Murder on the Forest Road – and make lots of money.

Oh, Oui, I can’t possibly read through all the comments to reach the conversation you and Lynda had about Killer X. But thanks for the link.

3-9-2013 at 23:52:24


Je ne suis pas une provocatrice.

3-9-2013 at 23:52:30


You only ‘tweak’ if you’ve something to hide. If I catch someone at ‘cheating’ then there is no excuse .. and NO ‘explanation why’ will help, because that ‘explanation’ is also not to be trusted

In other words .. once caught ‘cheating’ you have to scrap ALL statements

That is why I did not yet put SM in the timeline, because I have not established if BM is speaking the 100% truth.

BM can be catched ‘cheating’ if he invented ‘seeing MC on RF’. It is very dangerous to invent something without being catched.

If you change 1 puzzle piece for one from another puzzle you will, in the end, discover this … because it simply does NOT fit.

That is why details are so important. And even I made a ‘basic’ mistake. I held onto my BM views after a NEW important fact was found, the 1515 pictures. At that moment I should has reset everything and should have rebuild the whole scene plus timeline.

That is what I do now.

There is a basic choice now:

1. Does Bm speak the truth about seeing MC ‘halfwayish’?
2. If yes, is MC=X?
3. If yes, can a beaten up girl get up after 15 minutes?

If 3 is impossible, we can assume BM is ‘tweaking/cheating’

— Max

3-9-2013 at 23:54:06


‘The best programmers are lazy. They always try to find the shortest paths.’

I like;)

3-10-2013 at 00:22:18

“Je ne suis pas une provocatrice.”

Seulement un peu.

“For the first time tonight do I think that we are getting close to solving this case. This is due to Bacchus.”

Only the investigators can say this !

3-10-2013 at 00:27:00

‘« Il était environ 16 heures, c’était une grosse moto de route et son pilote n’était pas très sûr de lui car on le voyait souvent mettre pied à terre. Son engin n’était pas adapté à cette route, dégradée à cet endroit. Il y avait des sacoches accrochées de chaque côté. Je l’ai vu à 50 m environ, j’étais en train de nettoyer des planches à fromages », se souvient un éleveur qui possède un alpage au col de Chérel, dans cette région où se fabriquent des tomes réputées.’

I had from the beginnen the feeling WHAT IF

What if the fromage guy simply got the time wrong? I mean, you see a motorbike … and you check your watch?? (I even do not have a watch;)

Because 1500 (in stead of 1600) would be a perfect match for MC to go via col de cherel to Martinet and arrive just in time for the killing (but that would mean SM)

This perhaps in relation to Bacchus and Oui (but just a wild guess)

— Max

3-10-2013 at 00:29:22

Only the offical investigators, EM and Scotland yard. Anyone more.

3-10-2013 at 00:33:39


Thanks! I put a lot of thought in the so-called END CHAPTER. It’s a grand puzzle to combine possibilities, probabilities and motive into one basket. One by one other options can be struck down. To our readers, follow the link and you will find a long comment with several links.

Oui 12-18-2012 at 20:08:23 Peter is on a roll … great analysis.

Earlier I investigated the military training by the older generation of Schutz family as listed on the Internet. I did a background search of relationships before posting my last chapter.

I responded many moons ago to @M. aka Max

I’m now thinking of a man no older than SM, good with motorbikes, good with guns and ‘connected’ to SM and/or CS

Read more …

Oui on 3-3-2013 at 07:59:26 My conclusion:
MC is Killer X and ONF and/or BM are not coming forward with information known to them. EM is focused on cases he can solve.

Read more …

3-10-2013 at 00:50:11

In stead of a ‘full operation’ it might have been a ‘single-man return favor’ thing. TS setting it up (route) and ‘return-favor-man’ pulling the trigger coming from (contra-route) SPd’A – col de cherel – Martinet. With the 1600 timestamp in error as it should be 1500.

3-10-2013 at 00:59:31

Probably the wine on this late saturday evening but …

… perhaps the AH killings were to ‘mask’ the SM killing. AH’s lured to Martinet (what were they doing there anyway?). SM directed there. As soon as SM arrived he is killed. AH’s are killed too.

Result: The whole world thinks AH’s were the target. Only ‘behind the walls of silence’ the truth is known.

As said, it IS late;)

— Max

3-10-2013 at 08:46:14

I suspected this was possible, especially in agricultural regions of France … was Annecy on GMT timezone? That would also explain the recent article about Malcolm Lambert from the Island of Man (visited waterfalls) who said he returned to camping at 03:30, sirens were going constantly and helicopter flying.

Parts of France has “double summer time”
France and Spain will set their clocks one hour ahead to 2pm to observe daylight saving time, also known as “Summer Time”, on March 31, 2013. However, many parts of Spain and France will be in what some people refer to as “double summer time” in this period because the legal time is offset from the local mean solar time.

Haute-Savoie – Cross-border workers
Many people who live in Haute-Savoie (more than 52,200 in November 2006) work in Switzerland (in the districts of Geneva of Vaud and Valais). The phenomenon has accelerated since bilateral agreements concluded between Switzerland and the European Union, effective June 1, 2007 a resident of Haute-Savoie may freely work in Switzerland.

3-10-2013 at 09:00:26

So we’re after somebody with the initials DS? 🙂

3-10-2013 at 09:47:23


‘Nuf said .. close enough. The military training of the older generation and the cultural heritage would be sufficient to sustain the “wall of silence”. Detail knowledge of the Massif des Bauges is sufficient for planning and escape. The city guy EM enjoys the attention, visits to London and Geneva and translating letters to English for those nasty US judges who demand to see some evidence for the server search warrant. Question asked many times: does EM know identity of killer X?

3-10-2013 at 10:30:33


re: provocation

Non, ce n’est pas la provocation. C’est mon humeur anglais.

3-10-2013 at 11:03:36


I’m going to repost here the two comments by Oui as given to us by Bacchus. (Oui, I hope you do not mind.) This way it won’t be necessary to go through comments here and on the previous thread to find them.

Here goes:

Oui’s comment on 12-18-2012 at 20:08:23

“Peter is on a roll … great analysis.
Earlier I investigated the military training by the older generation of Schutz family & friends as listed on the Internet.
I responded many moons ago to @M. aka Max
I’m now thinking of a man no older than SM, good with motorbikes, good with guns and ‘connected’ to SM and/or CS
I did a background search of relationships before posting my last chapter. I don’t want to intrude in privacy of persons by posting names unless definitely related to the Chevaline murder case. I did send the info by mail to Marilyn Z. If you are interested, I could ask her to mail this info to you.
Hints to key elements are ski resort Belle Etoile – family members and life-long friends – military training – region Albertville/Saint Pierre d’Albigny/Chambéry and the tough, proud character of the Savoyard. See historical events at the end of WWII in 1944-1945.
Listed are links of lifelong friends to military training: 7ème Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins en Bourg Saint Maurice. Looking at older generation of local Savoyards: military training, comrades, ski professionals, geography of environs and mountains, availability Swiss army weapons and ammo. Close enough to the 27th Mountain Infantry Battalion?
No surprise here …”

Oui’s comment on 03-03-2013 at 07:59:26

“My conclusion:
MC is Killer X and ONF and/or BM are not coming forward with information known to them. EM is focused on cases he can solve.
Possibility ONF locals saw and recognized MC (Killer X) who may have said he was in a hurry, did he wear full-face motorbike helmet?
MC was in forbidden zone (between barrier Martinet and Col du Cherel)
MC headed north towards parking lay-by, knows SM is approaching
MC was already shaken by meeting ONF, parks motorcycle and runs towards barrier targeting SM and is completely surprised by SAH, car and family who were hidden from his view
Killer X returned to MC and takes rear track from hair-pin turn (Chemin Rural dit chemin de la Combe d’Yre) , by-passes masons, Arnand and Chevaline villages.
BM could only have seen (and/or heard) MC traveling parallel path minutes after shooting.
Where does that leave ONF 4×4? Did they overtake MC and where heading north, they must have seen SAH at lay-by, SM, BM and masons at house. (perhaps masons were done for the day or went inside house due to heavy traffic on road? LOL)
For BM to speak the truth there are many puzzle bits …
SAH took Route du Moulin through Arnand where masons worked at last house , masons never mentioned BM, SM, ONF or white or light colored car seen racing via Arnand towards Doussard. Did EM ever mention driver in small car was found?
Was single person in this car involved in surveillance of SM, feeding MC with cyclist location.
Maillaud’s beef with data on servers in the US
EM said emails or satellite communications? Could this be data from Google location finder transmitted by persons involved in Martinet massacre. Did person in white car have a satellite phone? Telephone data on nearest gsm towers would be known to EM and investigation. Has British investigation stopped and is EM expected to solve the case? No input from Swiss judge, UK, Iraq only waiting for feedback from the US or waiting for a local to break wall of silence by going to the press.
In one of my theories Killer X was a local man with military background and family ties to pharmacist in Grignon and lives in area direct south of Col du Cherel near village of Saint Pierre d’Albigny. We have covered all options so one of us must be right.”

OK, I say: so good, so far.

According to Bacchus we had to look for a place Oui mentioned. He mentioned Grignon and Saint Pierre d’Albigny.

According to RiffRaff we have to look for someone with the initial DS. As hard as I can rack my brains I can’t fill out DS to a full name.

3-10-2013 at 11:28:53

We have a situation were:

* Brett-Martin says that he has seen a MC at Route Forestiere, but is unable to give any sort of description

* The driver (?) of a 4X4 car says he has seen a MC “above” Route Forestiere, but is unable to give any sort of description

Even though I know nothing about MC’s I still believe that I would at least be able to say simple things like which colour, big or small, “off road” or normal.

I have above proposed an explanation why Brett-Martin is not willing to give any sort of description.

The guy in the 4X4 car: If it wasn’t a private car, there are to possible organisations mentioned that it could belong to ONF ( and CRPF ( As I understand it ONF is a national organisation that among other things take care of the national forest parks. I guess that they guard these parks as well as do some maintenance work in them.
The CRPF on the other hand is an organisation that help private landowners to look after their forests. I guess they could also help the ONF if needed be.
So perhaps the man in 4X4 actually recognized the MC-guy very well. That it was someone whom he had met several times through his work, someone who was his friend. It could be a rich man owning forest areas in the Rhone-Alpes or it could be someone working in the tourist sector.

This could explain why this forestry man was so reluctant to come forward and tell what he had seen, and then only tell as little as possible.

3-10-2013 at 11:28:59


What if Killer X is dead, himself having been killed?

3-10-2013 at 11:38:55


re: Forestry links

Thanks for these Lars.

Maybe there will be a better understanding of the task of our dear French investigators when I say that as I’ve read on these links there are 470,961 hectares under forest in the Rhone Alps region (Chevaline etc) with 923 employees.

3-10-2013 at 12:29:14

I will work out the variant SM=target, AH=lured/masked

I suddenly have great confidence in this:)

3-10-2013 at 12:48:18

@all. Re: ONF redirected MC

What if ONF didn’t redirect MC because they know him and tolerate locals doing “shortcuts” through the woods. So they let him pass. When realising later that this was part of a revenge Thing, they had to twak their story.
Rest happened presumably like Qui narrated but with only One Person actively involved.

@ Qui
I guess EM knows who X is and starts Fog bombs to draw the Attentismus away from the case. This could also be the Reason why he quite quickly didn’t need the personnel anymore. Around 10 people are sufficient to observe a man 24/7.

3-10-2013 at 12:52:02

Sorry for the spelling errors and wrong words. Mobile phone commenting sucks 😉

3-10-2013 at 13:10:42

Because what is cumbersome about this case?

If you ‘solve’ the AH side, you’re stuck on SM
But if you solve SM side, you’re stuck on AH

If you try to connect both by ‘a meeting’ (The CM approach) … you’re stuck too
But if you ‘give up, its a nutter’ … your are stuck

In other words … you are stuck:)

When I was a boy I did read an adventure book about 3 boys. At some point there was something about ‘stealing a car’. The problem was not the stealing itself, that was easy … but to ‘get away with it’

You have to start AT THE END. First organize the selling, then the hidelocation/repaint thing THEN steal … not the other way around

So … killing SM is EASY … but how to get away with it? That is the question:)

— Max

3-10-2013 at 13:47:11


re: errors

Not to worry RiffRaff. We got the meaning.

3-10-2013 at 14:21:52

So much elegance in what I’ve just thought of … but I’ve to re-chew it a bit, see if it sticks;) Laterz, M(onk)ax;)

3-10-2013 at 15:21:32

Rubik’s cube elegance that is. To (try to) solve the whole thing in stead getting stuck on only ‘red’.

3-10-2013 at 16:06:09

It seems intuitively plausible to me that there was an element of deliberate deception involved in the murders. However, I am not so sure about the AHs merely being random pawns used to deflect attention away from the murder of SM. In my opinion, the sheer number of shots fired and the amount of ammunition that the killer carried render it comparatively more likely that it was the other way around. By the same token, the P06 used could also be an attempt at deception, falsely suggesting that this was a “local” crime.

Thinking along those lines, the – admittedly brilliant – idea that WBM was in league with and acted as a lookout for the killer also makes more sense, in my opinion. If the AHs were the primary targets, the key to the motive must be in Britain. In that case, it would be unsurprising to find a Brit involved. Conversely, if this were a crime committed by taciturn, clannish Savoyards against one of their own, I wouldn’t consider it very likely that they would involve an outsider such as WBM.

@ RiffRaff 3-10-2013 at 12:48:18
I do so hope that you are right, that EM knows who the cuplrit is and is merely playing the fool in order to lull the killer into a false sense of security. Unfortunately, the more I see of him, the less inclined am I to believe that he is merely *playing* the fool 😉

3-10-2013 at 16:06:36

I thought it was agreed that the ONF vehicle indicated to the MC to get off the track above Martinet at about 15:15, they didn’t speak with the rider but gestured to go back to the main route – all along I have doubted this late testimony, the ONF guys know more and so does EM, subsequently.

I still can’t believe a farmer would get the hour wrong, was it just after finishing their lunch or later, I live in a farming community, the farmers turn up at the mothers/mother-in-laws at the same time, just after midday and leaving just after 2pm, further South this time is extended but anyone would know if you’d been at the cheese making hut washing boards at 3pm or 4pm, farmers work by the sun, especially when milking cows.

There may only have been one ‘baddie’ seen by Zainab, but there was more than one involved, I am convinced Brett Martin/William Brett saw what happened and hid in the bushes, he has nothing to do with the crime, his TV appearance was to say ‘I didn’t see anything, honest’. Having been virtually outed by the press as the first man on the scene, hounded even, with media on his doorstep, go look at his interview and comments, but PD, where is he, no reports of him being doorstepped, because he genuinely didn’t see anything.

I am convinced Sylvain Mollier had upset people, be that through work or lack of it, personal behaviour or political activity, I also believe that Claire Schutz knew of threats towards him, be they latent or real. The Schutz family are not near to being culprits, whatever they thought of the relationship between Claire and Sylvain, the baby Louis is their first grandchild by their only daughter, unconditional love, why would they plot to destroy her world so traumatically. Claire is back on Facebook, Matthis never left and I believe Leo operates under another name, this family is moving on as they surely must. WBM has to also, like many in this scenario they are self-employed, they have to go back to their business, no state handouts for them or longterm ‘sick’, eventhough their personal worlds have been and still are dramatically changed.

As an aside, I wonder what Sylvains relationship was like with his elder son, Leo (now 16) and his ex-wife and her new husband, not that I believe they would be responsible, but could someone have taken up the baton on their behalf? Or was it an old flame of Claires ? (okay I admit this was my first thought, many moons ago).

Before I forget, Thierry Schutz suggested a route, apparently he didn’t take that route, ‘got lost’, really, no he knew where he was going and the ruse was to have Claire believe he was taking ‘Papas’ suggested route, it is called a lie, which had his plans gone without a hitch noone would ever know of.

How many of us, I include myself, have hidden where we are really going, be that for impropriety or just a bit of peace ?

3-10-2013 at 16:11:59
3-10-2013 at 17:38:19


Does anyone of our bloggers live in the Annecy region?

In my comment above I linked to the France being on “double summer time”, agricultural regions next to each other with an hour difference. Does anyone know if this is a reality for the Chambéry – Albertville – Annecy area? This would explain the uncertainty if one hour via different sources. Most important to get the timeline correct!

3-10-2013 at 18:29:58

@Marilyn Z.

In my original comments, a number of links were of the utmost importance. I used this trick so I do not reveal names in my comment section. RiffRaff read through my links and found DS, a speculative choice. It was Bacchus who found substance in the background I wrote for my “END CHAPTER“. The profile for killer X given by Zak Martin fits the persons I found.

Listed are links of lifelong friends to military training: 7ème Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins en Bourg Saint Maurice. Looking at older generation of local Savoyards: military training, comrades, ski professionals, geography of environs and mountains, availability Swiss army weapons and ammo. Close enough to the 27th Mountain Infantry Battalion? No surprise here … or maybe an afterthought. SM was primary target, then killer X became aware of Arab origin of SAH family. A motive of revenge due to loss of France soldiers in Afghanistan.

Mort au combat
Le caporal Nicolas Belda, de la 27e brigade de chasseurs alpins d’Annecy, avait rejoint le théâtre afghan fin novembre 2008, engagé avec son unité au sein du GTIA Kapisa. Belda, mort au combat en vallée d’Alasaï le 14 mars 2009.

I still don’t know who Bacchus had in mind. At this moment in time, my suggestion of a local person (a Savoyard) remains as an option. Can we do our best to pinpoint more accurately position and time of all our actors in this drama! If EM is at a similar stage of his investigation, he may well need US NSA satellite data of communication and/or GPS positions of the same actors involved in the quadruple murder. If this is the right track, I am hopeful the murders will be solved in a matter of months.

3-10-2013 at 18:34:38


What I have seen of Sylvain Mollier’s relationship to his old and new family, and their internal relationship, make me sort of envy him. Not all modern family constellations are that happy. There could of course be hidden controversies, but I don’t believe it.

Since you “outed” C., and that she is back on FB, I guess you also noted where she lives? I think that is significant.

3-10-2013 at 19:01:05

@Lars, same as before ?

3-10-2013 at 19:06:29


In reality you have to travel outside Central Europe and into Africa to add anothe hour, Portugal remains on London Time (GMT, including Summertime) as far as I am aware all clock changes occur on the same day, so whilst for France will be +2 hours GMT ST, UK will be +1hour GMTST .

3-10-2013 at 19:12:06

@Oui, I should add that the clock changes happen at the end of March and then revert back at the end of October, so an incorrect set watch, clock, mobile phone would have been incorrect for a long time !

3-10-2013 at 19:49:26


Yeap! …and from that Agatha or Sherlock can draw some conclusions. 🙂

3-10-2013 at 20:29:45

Article and video of Saad al-Hilli’s property in Saint-Macaire on the border of the Gironde. Valued less than €25,000.


Statement by Philippe Didierjean

Lors de l’ascension de la route forestière, le randonneur n’a « rien entendu et croisé personne, ni voiture, ni moto », insiste-il. Mais il pense que celui ou ceux qui ont commis cet assassinat ont « pu prendre la fuite par la route dite du Moulin », un petit chemin tortueux qui conduit directement sur la route nationale. Dimanche, discrètement, les gendarmes ont emmené ces quatre témoins sur la route forestière pour déterminer les positions de chacun au moment de la découverte des corps ainsi que la chronologie précise.

Escape via Route du Moulin (map). BTW also road leading to home of witness Sylvie Lacoeur – Video.

3-10-2013 at 20:48:08

“I guess EM knows who X is and starts Fog bombs to draw the Attentismus away from the case. This could also be the Reason why he quite quickly didn’t need the personnel anymore. Around 10 people are sufficient to observe a man 24/7.Your Comments”

It is very possible, but six months, that’s alot of time.

In this case, may be important not divulge the name of my suspect.
No names, only elements for her profile.

3-10-2013 at 20:52:20


re: Cedric

Thanks for finding the meaning for us.

3-10-2013 at 20:53:23


re: double summer time.

Sorry, Oui,I can’t help you with this one.

3-10-2013 at 20:55:09

re: your 2013/03/10 at 6.29 pm

Peter makes a good comment up above.

3-10-2013 at 20:56:19

correction : No names, only elements of his profile.

3-10-2013 at 20:59:01

@Lars and @Lynda

re: time and clock changes

Agatha never goes forward to summer time or back to winter time. This means that she’s years younger than she is having stopped bothering about hours,minutes and seconds some 60 years ago already.

3-10-2013 at 21:00:39


re: your Killer X

You wrote ‘her’ profile there. Vow, now there you did tell us something!

3-10-2013 at 21:05:22

“The guy in the 4X4 car: If it wasn’t a private car, there are to possible organisations mentioned that it could belong to …”

You make a good job.

3-10-2013 at 21:30:51


No Mollier on CS’s fb.

The fact that she’s back means that life has returned to normal. In other words she’s been given the assurance by the investigators that her late partner was not the target and she need have no fear that his killer/s will come for her.

3-10-2013 at 22:04:26


Even though we are a “team” 🙂 I can’t agree with you.

First there are Molliers on her FB-site, you just have to know their alias.

Secondly, we all know Maillaud’s views so he has probably told her that the perpetrator is in Irak (if he communicates with her at all, he seems rather reluctant to speak to the Mollier family). More important, she has probably no reason to fear for her own life since the murder was an affair that wasn’t directed at her, but Sylvain Mollier.

3-10-2013 at 22:11:38


Life can only get back to normal once this case is solved.

— Max

3-10-2013 at 22:13:07


Thanks (even though I miss a letter here and there)!

I just wish that the 4X4-guy would come forward, and tell his story in public!


The problem with the witness Philippe Didierjean is first of all that it is probably not his correct name (as I pointed out earlier). Perhaps understandable if you take his two girlfriends into consideration.

3-10-2013 at 22:55:42


For those who remember the Sunday Times article that was erased for copyright reasons, it is now available for free at: since its author won a press award.

3-10-2013 at 22:56:49

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 3-10-2013 at 20:52:20
“@ Lynda re: Cedric Thanks for finding the meaning for us.”

The Urban Dictionary is open to anyone to put in their definitions of a word. Kids put in their own name with an exaggerated, favorable definition, or their enemies, or frenemies, do the same to mock them.

The one that appeared several times for Cedric was as a class-clown after the comedian Cedric the Entertainer, which makes sense. The other was as a sort of dweeb, nerd, geek or Barney — not flattering, but it didn’t seem attached to any particular person.

The definition that a Cedric is someone with a big derrière I don’t know. Do we have pics with rear views of Florian B? 🙂

3-10-2013 at 23:07:09

Where is Oui ? to help us , Lars make a good job, I hope you too.

3-10-2013 at 23:08:22

@NR – a geek, maybe even just ‘odd’, as in mentally unstable, would have to be Swiss and from Daillon to understand.

3-10-2013 at 23:08:58

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 3-10-2013 at 21:30:51
“@All : No Mollier on CS’s fb. The fact that she’s back means that life has returned to normal. In other words she’s been given the assurance by the investigators that her late partner was not the target and she need have no fear that his killer/s will come for her.”

Or she or her family ordered the hit, so they know they’re in no danger from X.

It is important to think the worst possible about all characters involved in our story. Miss Marple or Hercule Poirot or Sherlock would not do less. No citizen is above suspicion! 🙂

3-10-2013 at 23:12:43


“The definition that a Cedric is someone with a big derrière I don’t know. Do we have pics with rear views of Florian B?”

Forget Florian B.

3-10-2013 at 23:14:04

@Lars, that is really my point, WBM was quickly identified by the British Press, noone seems to have gone after PD, just the difference between the French and British journos. Something mentioned by Oui is Sylvie Lecoeur, did EM confirm that the white Peugeot wsa ever identified, especially as another person claims to have seen it with people inside wearing wigs !

3-10-2013 at 23:28:56

“another person claims to have seen it with people inside wearing wigs !”

it´s an old story, forget. Because if you beleive this, you entry on the conspiration theory. You believe, like me, this is a local case.

3-10-2013 at 23:53:51


Some local journalists spoke to Philippe, so he is known, but I guess they agreed to “tweak” his name a little so that he wasn’t identifiable by the local population.

I don’t believe he was anything but a witness, but if absolutely necessary I guess it would be possible to identify him.

3-11-2013 at 01:01:34

Remember I was the ‘sudoku man’. But this is more like a ‘rubiks cube’. All elements are there but we can’t solve it, and neither can EM. So how turn turn all the elements so it is solved?

Perhaps the idea of a puzzle or sudoku and the method for solving is not the proper one when dealing with a rubik’s cube. Get the colors in a RB one by one to their proper location is not the way to do it. Perhaps that is why the solving fails time and time again. You move 1 color but you wreck the other positions.

Perhaps you have to put all elements in front of you and see in ONE FLASH the grand picture. Turn/tweak ALL elements together.

I have an idea, its all about sync and direction. The best idea I had so far as in the best ‘method’ to deal with this case. Let me say that any normal person would NOT get this idea. Only the happy few would be able to see this. The happy few who know of all elements. Btw, you are all belonging to those happy few;)

The idea I have has many elements/ideas brought in from many sources (including you). I have to let it a bit … to see if it sticks, because many a time I also was busy trying to solve ‘one side’ of this Rubik’s cube.

I remember I said long ago that the solution would give you/me a ‘Ohh, but of course’ feeling … the idea that I have is in that direction. Simple, elegant, enclosing all known elements, explaining all.

… but I was wrong a lot of thimes before, taking wrong turns (sic;) so, after six months, some extra time wont hurt. We’ll see about tomorrow, perhaps it turns out to be another of Max’s joke ideas lol;)

Anyway, now you know why I don’t post for a short time … I’m digesting:)

— Max

PS: About solving … I’m a bit a piano player myself, but in Max style, my own stuff. I like it, I dont care what others think, but I know some enjoy it too. I was working on a little theme. Got it right but needed a second part in that ‘song’. Couldn’t find the proper continuation. Stuck for months, sometimes trying something but never like Yesss. Until 3 days ago, I did put my hands onto the keyboard, playing a variant chord and a small progression and voila, the ‘solution’ streamed like a miracle out of my fingers … As said, a Max tune, dont think too much of it, I’m no pop star;) … but the fact that suddenly everything fell into place was strong. Sometimes you need these sort of moments to ‘solve’ something;)

3-11-2013 at 05:59:50

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 3-10-2013 at 11:03:36
“According to RiffRaff we have to look for someone with the initial DS. As hard as I can rack my brains I can’t fill out DS to a full name.”

Oncle DS?

3-11-2013 at 06:37:14

“Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.”
Otto von Bismarck

Other good Bismarck quotes, including the laws & sausages one:

Maybe we should look to what has been denied to find what’s true. The only firm denial I recall is Zaid saying there was no great financial dispute with Saad, which was contradicted by others — neighbour & cousin — claiming Saad was so perturbed over this he had heart problems and was in hospital.

I would not include EM’s changing stories as denials. I think he is not under pressure from the French media and thus politicians to arrest somebody, anybody, as often happens in the UK and US, and just gives the press a marginally new angle so they’ll have something to report and leave him alone.

Marilyn, is this correct? Would there be a demand for arrests if the family murdered were native French, or are the investigators immune to such pressure?

3-11-2013 at 09:26:40


re: Demand for arrest

NR, the media here in France never makes any demands on the police. Family of crime or terrorism victims do make demands from the police through the media. They usually form groups, get solicitors and then the media (TV, written press and radio) make a big splash of their plight.

I do not think that most of the victims at Chevaline were non-French makes a difference to the investigation or the media’s interest in the case. This case had enormous media coverage for the first 4/6 weeks, then other events caught up with it. For example at the moment the big news is that President Hollande’s popularity is at a low, so he is going to visit a few regions in France to tell people what a great guy he is and how he and his government only has France’s future and their happiness in mind. Hallelujah! Second big news items is that it was today last year that the terrorist Merah shot his first victim and there will be some remembrance services in Toulouse.

re@ Initial.

OK, I get it!

3-11-2013 at 09:29:02


re: Maillaud and Rubik’s Cube

Maybe, Max, he ha put the colours together, but he can’t talk for reasons of state security.

3-11-2013 at 09:31:53

@Lynda and @Bacchus (Ladies first)

That white Peugeot was seen twice and by different people. And yes Bacchus I was going to mention this car also yesterday but decided not to because I knew someone here was going to say ‘we’ve discussed that and it had nothing to do with the case’. And Lynda is quite correct: that car was never identified.

3-11-2013 at 09:32:14

“The problem with the witness Philippe Didierjean is first of all that it is probably not his correct name (as I pointed out earlier). Perhaps understandable if you take his two girlfriends into consideration.”

hmm, two girls … one Philippe D. … one “cedric” approaching. what if SM had an “appointment” with PD and the girls and therefore “got lost” on purpose? Just an idea that crossed my mind. Maybe X was enraged by rumors on SM´s cheating on CS. He follows PD and the two girls to the valley. Now he sees SM took a different route to the same valley coming up to martinet. He knows the rumors were right. X blood begins to boil (hence personal family etc. involvement of X is needed in this scenario). When X thinks that no witnesses are around and starts shooting immediately after SM is within reach of his gun.
As I said, just an idea.

3-11-2013 at 09:32:54


re: big behinds

Sarkozy has one. Prince Charles has one. Angelina Jolie has one.

3-11-2013 at 09:35:28


re: thinking the worst possible about all characters

Miss Marple will get all the protagonists (even the domestic help in their white pinafores and frilly caps) together in a room and in 10 minutes she will solve the crime.

3-11-2013 at 09:36:48


re: Sunday Times articles.

Thanks Lars for drawing our attention to this.

3-11-2013 at 09:56:04


EM gave up on solving the Rubik’s cube;)

Btw, I never solved the real Rubik’s cube on my own. And I’m too lazy to ‘look it up’ … yet, If you know the trick (rotation formula’s etc) the thing can be solve in mere seconds … which of course is quite normal. If you take a ‘completed’ RC and make 20 random turns, the RC can be solve by doing those 20 turns in reverse order. But make a slight mistake and you’ve got complete chaos;)

The ‘chevaline’ case consists of a dozen or so ‘turns’. Misplace 1 turn and you’ve got chaos;)

— Max

3-11-2013 at 10:38:11


re: Rubik’s Cube

I bought one at the time and after having struggled for some time I gave it to a neighbour’s little boy and right in front of my eyes he got it right in about half an hour. I felt a real Charlie then.

3-11-2013 at 10:43:59


re: the two ‘girls’

Months ago I gave my thoughts on the two ‘girls’. For example the oddity of both of them having been sitting in the rear of the car. Does a man let his girlfriend sit in the rear of the car as if he’s a taxi? No. Or is that he was transporting the two somewhere? I had (and still have) an idea what Monsieur Didierjean was up to that day.

3-11-2013 at 10:53:22


Did that boy solve the RC without ever seeing a RC before? (in that case = genius) Or did he have a RC himselve and learned the tricks? (in that case = still better than me;)

Btw the way, if the boy falls into category 1 (which I doubt) you should hand him all the facts/rumours/elements of the ‘Chevaline case’ and he’ll solve it in 30 minutes;)

— Max

3-11-2013 at 11:02:43


The thought that Sylvain Mollier had been cheating on his girlfriend have crossed my mind several times. We know so little of him, the police have deprived him of both his face and history, but there are things that might point in that direction. However I think there had to be additional reasons why he was killed.

3-11-2013 at 12:25:46


re: boy with RC

Max, I never asked him and presumed that he had not seen one before. He might though have been cheating. He’s a married man now and no longer lives next door to me and I’ve lost touch with his parents. I suppose the lesson I should learn from this is ‘Do not trust so easily’.

3-11-2013 at 12:26:43


re Cheating

Lars, he was French. Here in France adultery is the order of the day.

3-11-2013 at 14:52:54

@Marilyn,affairs may be the norm in certain circumstances, from what I know of French women, they would cut off the family jewels and boil them, then deal with the object of affection ! Why would a young woman, such as CS put up with an errant partner, she didn’t need him financially, but love makes us all do very strange things….

3-11-2013 at 14:57:43


An American male once asked me whether I tolerate adultery. My answer was ‘no’.

3-11-2013 at 22:15:38

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

Hilli Joins Brett In Arnand, X First Goes There, Target Of X Mollier First, Then English Unrelated Persons Get Shot After Unsuccesfull U-turn. Used V Luger Of Schutz, Before X Leaves Lay-by

Did I say Twilight Zone or what:)

3-11-2013 at 23:17:22

Congratulations Max!

An amazing feat, and it looks and sounds so familiar.

3-12-2013 at 05:44:49

@ Marilyn
re: Maillaud and Rubik’s Cube
Maybe, Max, he ha put the colours together, but he can’t talk for reasons of state security


3-12-2013 at 05:53:41

I don’t know if u all have seen this photo of Saad with his daughter:

3-12-2013 at 08:53:28


Thanks, yes, we saw the photo of Saad with his daughter.

I really think Prosecutor Maillaud’s has been ordered to keep silent.

3-12-2013 at 08:54:30


re: Random letters

And you say you never could get the Rubik Cube right?

3-12-2013 at 09:27:06

‘Brett Martin, the British cyclist who discovered the bodies, has told police that he passed a motorbike driving away from the scene between three and five minutes before he arrived at the car park’

3-5 minutes?

This does NOT fit the timeline if MC=X and if MC/X escaped over route forestiere … because he would have been spotted by PD!

(in case the timeline is based on 1515 pictures 1548 PD and BM statements)

— Max

3-12-2013 at 09:55:06

Max is, with these random letters, beginning to sound like the Delphic oracle.
I hope he isn’t using any illegal drugs, like the oracle probably did, when he is giving us these revelations. 🙂

3-12-2013 at 10:15:48

I think 15.45 Zaninab walks is not correct. If BM is seeing MC on 15.34 then he has to arrive (3-5 min.) on 15.40, he sees Zainab walking when he approches, hence 15.40. According to his testimony he does a lot of things, taking care of the fallen girl, switching the engine of, orientating himself, looking for the potential attacker, deciding to go RF. Presumably bumbing into PD 15.45, talks 2 mins., 15.48 PD makes a call/gets a GSM connection.

3-12-2013 at 10:34:16


We spoke earlier of triangulation, the method used to discover the source of (electromagnetic) signals.

This method could perhaps also be used to find a killer among a group of people, triangulation of relationships.

The worst scenario for an investigator is when there is no known connection between a perpetrator and his victim. If there are also no technical evidences at the crime scene, the probability to solve that case is very low (compare “the nutter”).

On the other if there are persons around the crime scene with a connection to the victim, everything is a lot easier. As a hypothetical case: replace the persons that we know were at and around the crime scene at Martinet, Brett-Martin, Philippe Didierjean, Laurent the builder, the 4X4-guy, with close relatives to Sylvain Mollier.

The crime investigator who would not then suspect that it had something to do with internal family affairs, and that the killer belonged to the same circles, would be utterly stupid.

The situation at Chevaline is however not as easy as in my hypothetical case, the connections are not that evident. I think that also supports the idea of a premeditated murder. I you plan to murder someone, and you need an accomplice(s), it is not particularly smart to choose someone who can be easily linked to yourself.

I have above proposed an explanation to Brett-Martin’s and the 4X4-guy’s behaviour. This explanation demands that they were friends with, or at least knew, the shooter. The shooter must also be connected to Sylvain Mollier.

Then we have three persons, Brett-Martin, the 4X4-guy and Sylvain Mollier, all with connections to the same person, the shooter. That should be enough to perform a succesful “triangulation” and the light will fall on one person, the killer.

3-12-2013 at 11:23:40


Fits my timeline where ONF stops MC before shooting. I used 25 min. for BM climb.

15:43 Martinet
15:39 Meets MC below Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:35 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:30 ONF 4×4
15:18 Begin climb at sign

ONF – Down
15:20 MC
[ONF stays put for 5 min. perhaps listen to motorbike across stream up on the ridge]
15:28 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:30 Meets BM halfway climb
15:33 At begin climb at sign

MC – Down
15:38 Martinet Departs
15:39 Meets BM near Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:40 Halfway climb
15:42 At begin climb turns right on Route du Moulin

3-12-2013 at 11:31:32


Even if (and that was in the original timeline) BM did climb faster and thus arrived a bit earlier (15.40) we still have some weird issues:

Because BM sees MC/X at 15.35, and assuming MC/X escapes over RF, and is not seen by PD we have to conclude that the shooting still happened at 15.30

15.40-15.30 is 10 minutes. So Zainab walked after beaten down 10 minutes earlier!

15.40 would also mean BM was roaming around 6-7 minutes before going down and meeting PD (I have no problem with that)

But it makes the ‘it takes about half hour climb’ statement of BM a bit tricky. WHICH climb does take half hour?? Because AH was at sign at 15.19 and BM did NOT see AH so BM arrived at sign LATER than 15.19. Assume 15.20 … 15.20-15.40 is 20(!) minutes for the climb, in stead of the ‘half hour’ (btw, 20 minutes is doable, but BM mentions 30 minutes … for what climb exactly??)

— Max

3-12-2013 at 11:37:08


No, no, no Oui:P

AH was in Doussard 15.15 (pictures) and as the masons stated was not in a ‘hurry’ so AH never can be at sign at 15.17!!

Ah were at sign at 15.20 at the earliest. 15.22 more likely (if they were not in a hurry) AND BM HAS TO BE THERE *** LATER ***!!!

3-12-2013 at 11:42:35

The pictures at 15.15 are BM’s ‘downfall’ … BM never knew about those pictures

(this is part of my new scenario, which I will reveal later … funny that I can make the oracle ‘agree’ with me … hjbia ‘Hilli Joins Brett In Arnand’;)

3-12-2013 at 12:08:41

See my earlier post fitting all actors …

TIMETABLE including SAH journey

Murder took place at 15:35 hours +/- 2 min.

15:35 MC starts killing
15:28 Martinet Ar.
15:26 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:25 Halfway climb
15:22 Via Route du Moulin begin climb

3-12-2013 at 12:12:24


… for what climb exactly??

Indeed, by following the road via Google streetview, the climb arbitrarily could start just outside the village of Chevaline.

3-12-2013 at 12:54:48

Some French journalists, that were at the crime scene shortly after the killings, were surprised that the gendarmerie had sealed off only the lay-by, but not the road. The journalist were allowed to trample around on the road and destroy any traces.

I believe that if the gendarmerie had sealed of the whole area, including the area beyond the barrier, they would have found traces from the shooter’s vehicle (the MC).

3-12-2013 at 13:17:16


Your BM timetable cant be correct. The start must be shifted at least 5 minutes!!

15:43 Martinet
15:39 Meets MC below Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:35 Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire
15:30 ONF 4×4
15:18 Begin climb at sign ***** CANT BE RIGHT *****

15.18 must be 15.23 or later if you want to keep your SAH timetable!

3-12-2013 at 13:25:07

As we all know it was already a ‘play of minutes’, very tight. The only significant change was the discovery of the pictures which could be exactly pinpointed at 15.15 (I assume the investigators are no tech dumba****s;)

15.15 poses extreme limits to what can be fitted into the timeline. The ONLY stuff we can (try to) fit are the BM statement which he made BEFORE the discovery of the pictures.

BM statements lead to very ‘weird’ results, as I explainend.

Without the pictures at 15.15 BM could get away with terms like ‘halfwayish’ and ‘halfhour-ish’, but WITH the 15.15 pictures he is in trouble!


— Max

3-12-2013 at 15:23:13

If my newest scenario is true … it is so devious. It ‘eclipses’ even the episodes of Monk:) … and if it is not true, it certainly will make good tv stuff, the AgathaChristie/Monk stuff 😉

3-12-2013 at 16:53:50


Sorry, I can’t read in and this is as it may be for a couple more days. Must just say that if Max is on a substance, can he email me the name so I can get it because I badly need a brain boost right now.

3-12-2013 at 17:06:06

In one line: The case is about the killing of S, ‘masked’ as a ‘nutter’ case. B provided the ‘mask’, X did the killing.

(killing is easy, how to get away with it, that is the difficult part)

3-12-2013 at 17:33:25

@Lars, I’ve always wondered where this photo was taken, where is the low bridge, that the sign indicates ?

3-12-2013 at 18:13:47

Brilliant analysis on BM role. I believe!

3-12-2013 at 18:27:40


Where is link to photo with sign “low bridge”?

3-12-2013 at 19:00:05
3-12-2013 at 19:40:04

Thanks for the video. I am so excited. Do you hear the shots at 1:14? The commentator says they source from ballistic tests (when my french isn´t tricking me). That means that everybody in the whole valley MUST have heard the shots!!! (except when a silencer was used). I mean they are so loud that we hear them in the back of a video and the police man turns his head at 1:15


3-12-2013 at 19:50:17


You lost me, which photo?

3-12-2013 at 19:58:10


You wont catch BM on ‘not hearing shots’ … he simply respond that probably his effort in going uphill did ‘mask’ (sic;) the sound (which could be true btw)

(same as the unclear descriptions of the 4×4 and MC … both probably do not exist)

… yup, I’m after mr BM again (thx to Lars:P)

If you want to catch BM you have to catch him on his own (limited) statements. As said he gave those statements BEFORE the pictures 15.15 were discovered. If we can find a ‘proof’ that 15.15 pictures do not match up with the BM statements we know BM does not speak the truth (because the pictures and timestamp wont lie)

And if BM does not speak the truth, there has to be a reason. But he is not the killer, we know that. So he is something like an ‘overlooking’ guy (as ppl have suggested before).

I go 1 step further. He is the ‘mask’ guy. Responsible for the ‘luring’ stuff. And the difficult task of ‘syncing’ this with SM’s arrival.

I’ll paint my scenario in a later post. If it (the scenario) is not the truth, it certainly *is* a great idea for a tv episode;)

— Max

3-12-2013 at 20:13:28


I must admit that it is a clever move if you can nail Brett-Martin with the timestamps on the photos.

These were not known when he gave his testimony, so he couldn’t adjust his statements to them.

3-12-2013 at 21:07:13


Also concludes SAH stayed on the main road from Doussard to spot where builders are (2,0 km) and only 450m from sign and climb up to Martinet. Timeline Droussard @15:15 to Chevaline-builders @15:18 to sign @15:20 and finish position Martinet lay-by @15:26. Infers SAH just got there and parked car straight in, not expecting difficulties or he would have turned car around into a “get-away” position.

If builders didn’t notice SM in pursuit of BM (or vice versa), dit the cyclists take the Route du Moulin?

In adjusted timeline, SAH started climb just behind SM (1 min.) and must have overtaken SM in earliest part of the climb to Martinet. Possibly the passing wasn’t quite agreeable, so Saad got out of the car to speak to a nasty SM who got off his bicycle at the barrier …

ONF 4×4 remains a mystery. In my timeline they could have waited at Xing Chemin de la Combe d’Ire, see SM pass by @15:31 and head downhill passing BM halfway his climb and ONF vehicle left National Park @15:34. Almost suggesting a “tag team” with BM. It’s quite busy for an isolated place in the forest, persons leaving and coming with Swiss timing for accuracy.

3-12-2013 at 22:45:09

@qui and max
Its just crazy how unlikely tight the timeline is. I mean in normal life things go wrong although there are 15-30 min reaction time. And here?! Everything runs smoothly like in a Film plot, and bit too smoothly for my taste.

3-12-2013 at 23:05:00

The timeline can not be sustained if I take the statements of BM for true. He is ‘tweaking’ too much!!

Below there is an example of ‘tweaking’. The 1548 time of the call. BM says he meet PD and PD called. But PD says he meet BM, THEN THEY FIRST WENT UP TO MARTINET and only then PD called!!!

Now, if we take PD = truth then that sequence would take much longer than what BM wants us to believe …

BM downhill – meets PD – Talk – Uphill – Check scene – PD a bit downhill – PHONE

The above easily takes 6-7 minutes!

Read below the statements

MARTIN: Luckily only about something like three or four hundred yards away as I was racing down the hill a car was coming up, with a man and two ladies, French people, in the car. So I sort of stopped them and in my quoted bad French, er, was trying to get rather urgently across the point that there’d been a very very bad event up at the car park and did they have a phone– a signal – and therefore could they phone the rescue services, which they did.

PHILLIPE.D. « Cet homme, paniqué, était en train de redescendre la route, se souvient Philippe, encore ému. Il m’a expliqué difficilement dans un mauvais français qu’il y avait eu un drame un peu plus haut. Il cherchait à prévenir les secours. Je n’ai pas compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone portable ou s’il ne parvenait pas à capter le réseau à cet endroit. » Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur quelques mètres pour arriver sur le parking, théâtre du quadruple assassinat. « J’ai tout de suite compris, poursuit-il. Je me suis approché de la voiture. Je n’ai touché à rien mais j’ai vu qu’il n’y avait plus rien à faire. Il n’y avait pas un signe de vie. » Il raconte s’être ensuite penché sur « une petite fille ». « Elle ne répondait pas à nos appels. J’ai tapé dans les mains mais elle ne réagissait pas. J’ai même prononcé quelques mots en anglais puisque j’ai vu que la voiture était immatriculée en Grande-Bretagne. Mais il ne se passait rien. Pour moi, elle était morte. » Quelques secondes plus tard, il redescend de quelques mètres pour contacter les pompiers. Le premier appel enregistré par les secours, qui arrivent une poignée de minutes plus tard.

PHILLIPE.D. « En montant vers le parking du Martinet, nous avons croisé un homme qui descendait, avec du sang sur les mains , raconte Philippe D. Il nous a fait comprendre qu’il y avait eu un drame plus haut. Il n’avait pas pu prévenir les secours, je n’ai pas bien compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone ou si ça ne passait pas sur les lieux. Nous avons poursuivi la route et nous avons trouvé la voiture… » Les trois randonneurs découvrent alors horrifiés les trois victimes tuées par balles à l’intérieur de la voiture de la famille al-Hilli, ainsi que leur fille aînée et le cycliste savoyard, étendus près du break BMW. Il n’y avait aucun signe de vie « Pour nous, tout le monde était mort, alors nous ne nous sommes pas approchés des victimes. Nous avons appelé, fait du bruit, mais personne n’a bougé. Ni dans la voiture, ni dehors. Sinon, on se serait précipités pour leur porter secours. On a appelé les pompiers et on est vite redescendus vers les premières maisons de Chevaline. Franchement, on avait peur que l’assassin soit encore sur place. On ne savait pas d’où les coups avaient été tirés. On voulait juste sauver notre vie »

3-12-2013 at 23:24:53

Skip that last post. I’ve found another PD (french) quote which agrees with BM’s statement (pffff, if you go by newspapers … EM give me the dossier;)

Une semaine après la tuerie de Chevaline, Philippe D., un Haut-Savoyard parti faire une randonnée avec deux amies sur les hauteurs du village mercredi dernier, a toujours un frisson lorsqu’il pense à cet après-midi.

« Nous étions partis en voiture pour faire une randonnée dans les Bauges, se souvient-il. D’habitude, on monte par l’autre côté (Savoie). C’est la première fois que nous venions par la combe d’Ire. En montant sur la petite route forestière, nous avons croisé un homme qui a attiré notre attention. Il avait les mains couvertes de sang. Il nous a fait comprendre qu’il s’était passé quelque chose de grave un peu plus haut. Visiblement, il voulait donner l’alerte, mais il n’avait pas de téléphone mobile, ou pas de réseau. Le parking du Martinet n’était pas loin, alors nous avons appelé les pompiers et nous sommes montés voir ce qu’on pouvait faire… ».

Sur le petit terrain, ils découvrent l’horreur. Le break BMW est là. À l’intérieur, les corps des trois membres de la famille al-Hilli, avec des impacts de balles dans la tête. Juste à côté, la dépouille du cycliste Sylvain Mollier et Zainab, la fille aînée de Saad al-Hilli. « Il n’y avait aucun signe de vie. On a appelé, tapé dans les mains, mais aucune victime n’a bougé, alors nous ne nous sommes pas approchés du véhicule. Si nous avions entendu le moindre cri ou vu le moindre signe qu’une des victimes était vivante, nous nous serions précipités pour lui porter secours. Franchement, nous étions sûrs que tout le monde était mort. »

Après le choc, l’inquiétude : « La scène est terrible. On reste figé. Et puis, on commence à se demander si l’assassin est toujours là, quelque part. Nous n’avions croisé personne en montant. On ne savait pas d’où les coups de feu avaient été tirés. On a pensé à sauver nos vies. On est redescendus vers les premières maisons de Chevaline pour attendre les secours qui sont arrivés très rapidement. » Les pompiers, puis les gendarmes. Les trois témoins sont ensuite entendus.

3-12-2013 at 23:25:52


The emergency call made by BM was registered @15:48. It did not matter that he thought there was no reception …

The FCC mandates that any network provider transmit an emergency call to a local Public Safety Answering Point, or PSAP, regardless of whether the caller subscribes to that provider’s service. This means that if you subscribe to Sprint’s service and you attempt to make a phone call in an area where Sprint does not provide service but Verizon does, Verizon is required to connect your call to the nearest PSAP. Thus, your phone may appear to have no bars and may even say “No Service” but you may be able to call 911 on another network. You can also make 911 calls on a cellphone that is not activated with any network.

Cellular service providers attempt to triangulate your exact location using the signal strength from their nearby cell towers. They then use that location to locate the nearest PSAP and provide them with whatever information they have about your location.

3-12-2013 at 23:32:39


The call was made by Philippe Didierjean.

3-12-2013 at 23:54:40

sorry, it didn’t copy over earlier – I was referring to Lars comment about not cordoning off the area, where is this ?

@Max, I remain convinced BM SAW more or less what happened, I’ll stick my neck out and say the ONF vehicle drove through Martinet after the event, they chose to do nothing, hence the delay in coming forward as they were not aware they had been seen. How many were in the vehicle, one, two, three ?

Why? Because they know the motorbiker and Sylvain Mollier, this motorbike did not leave towards Chevaline but towards the Col, hoping to get off Les Bauges via Jarsy, spotted by Jannin, hesitated appearing to go towards Martinet then left by another route, plenty of them. Why didn’t Jannin, shout or indicate to the motorbiker to get off the mountain ? He was only 50 metres away.

Brett Martin would also have left Martinet without reporting anything, except for the unexpected arrival of PD or whomever, he hoped he would get down the hill in double quick time and go home and clean himself up, apparently noone can prove he was there apart from PD. Wasn’t it said he was going to cycle to Annecy to report it, why? I don’t believe he ever tried to call emergency services, he barely spoke French, had he been in possession of a mobile, why didn’t he have it in his hand and show to PD that he had no signal, PD says he doesn’t know if he hadn’t called the Emergency Services because he had no signal or NO PHONE.

The killer arrived from Col de Cherel direction and left in the same manner until he was seen by Jannin, he or someone he knew had a meeting with Sylvain Mollier near or at Martinet, who was deliberately ‘lost’. The motorbiker wasn’t seen earlier crossing the Col as he like most of us know that after mid-day and for at least two hours the French are ‘nosebagging’, having lunch and a snooze. The motorbike was seen by the ONF above Martinet around 15:15, they did not escort it down but indicated for it to return to the authorised road for vehicles.

Which brings me back to, Brett Martin appeared on TV to say he didn’t SEE anything, don’t shoot the messenger.

3-13-2013 at 00:12:46


I have seen that picture, but I don’t know where it was taken. I hardly believe it has anything to do with Chevaline. I thought that the journalists just grabbed a nice picture with some polices on.

Otherwise I think your scenario is quite likely, especially since I have an idea that the MC was heading for Sonnaz. I do somewhat doubt however that the 4X4 passed Martinet, then they must also have seen Brett-Martin there and that makes the whole scenario a bit to complicated for my liking.

3-13-2013 at 01:12:55

Hmm, about PD statements. It seems that ‘le Parisien’ is the source

And that would mean that PD phoned AFTER being at Martinet himself (which would be normal, because otherwise what would he have made off the story of that badly french speaking UK guy)

— Max

3-13-2013 at 09:12:16

Brett-Martin scenario continued…and cell phones

If Brett-Martin was an accomplice, he probably did not have his mobile phone on, since he wouldn’t want to be traced.

He hardly then turned it on when he saw what had happened at Martinet. His first impulses must have been to try and escape unseen and “untraced”.

This throws new light on his encounter with Philippe Didierjean. He did not show his mobile phone, perhaps he did not even had it with him. If he did have one, he had not the slightest idea if there was any signal or not, it was not on. To show a mobile phone that was not even on for Philippe Didierjean would have been very embarassing for Brett-Martin. His real intentions, to run away unseen, would be too obvious.

3-13-2013 at 10:07:30

The PD reports are interesting as they say that he, the ladies and BM made their way to the nearest houses to await the police, so did they all drive down (4kms) or did BM go back down on his bike, probably the latter all meeting at the same property, BM asking for the toilet, washing his hands, all being offered a stiff drink as they told the their story, plenty of time to activate his telephone – did he then call his wife ? They certainly weren’t on the scene awaiting the emergency services, I wonder which house they went to ?

My point about the 4×4 is if you debunk BM, then apart from them eventually saying they were on Les Bauges, indicated to a motorbiker above Martinet to return to the route, then there is nothing else, either way, they didn’t see BM and he didn’t know if there were 10 in the car ! And as Lars says the scene was quickly contaminated by all the activity required to get the bodies out etc.

@Lars, Sonnaz going to look that one up, although I’ve come across the place before during our ‘investigations’.

3-13-2013 at 10:09:26

@ Lynda 3-12-2013 at 23:54:40

If you mean the pic at the top of this page, it is “Macabre découverte dans la forêt de Rennes” uses it to illustrate all their crime stories in France.

3-13-2013 at 10:42:38

We’ve been through it before, but one of the oddest things about re-reading BM’s and PD’s stories, is how did they and PD’s two companions conclude everyone in the car was dead? The only explanation is if the victims had head wounds so severe they could not possibly be alive. Which must have been what the rescue crew saw too or they would have opened the car.

They also leave the older girl alone as they depart down hill. Though I know from experience people don’t act logically after accidents or events like this.

3-13-2013 at 10:54:51

@ Oui 3-12-2013 at 23:25:52
“@Max: The emergency call made by BM was registered @15:48. It did not matter that he thought there was no reception … The FCC mandates that any network provider transmit an emergency call to a local Public Safety Answering Point…”

Does France have the same regulations? This would only work provided there was at least a data signal, but not necessarily strong enough for voice, to some provider’s towers.

3-13-2013 at 11:01:26


Why did the investigators in the first three days tell the press the first call was made by BM at 15:48 hours? Only 3 days afterwards the testimony of a Philippe D. came forward, after someone had mentioned other witnesses at the crime scene. As I stated above, there is a technical provision when BM does not have a signal to his own provider network, the emergency call is picked up via any other provider in the area and put through to the first responders. The location is calculated in the first instant of the signal and the fire dep’t and police respond. After the second call from PD with the extent of the event, the alarm is upscaled. That is the reason the arrival was within minutes of PD’s call.

Had you seen this excellent aerial video by ITF of the location of the shooting shot on Thursday 6 September.

L’Essor – coverage from the beginning

(Minor detail, confirms flat tire on BMW station and on another photo is clearly seen as rear back tire on right side. What still amazes me, from the earliest stages the sole focus was the Iraqi family, finances, inheritance and within a week EM announced the answer lies in Surrey, UK)

3-13-2013 at 11:11:48

Another remarkable coincidence is the following:

BM was ‘just’ on his way down for help as PD arrived.

If you take another perspective you’d say he was ‘busy’ at Martinet. Then he heard a car coming, jumped on his bike and ‘acted’ the rest;)

3-13-2013 at 11:50:56


I understood BM ran down the road towards the car. That always puzzled me after he said he couldn’t carry the child on his bike, why did he intend to get help by running? As NR said, people in panic do not act in a logical way … unless you had received training as pilot perhaps? How far did he get 10 or 20 meters down the road?

3-13-2013 at 11:52:35

Bacchus comment …

A pyromaniac is often seen watching the fire and responders. Martinet by all accounts was an isolated area. What if the murderer was a walker, indeed a nutter living in the local community? Could he have escaped? Does killer X coming from above beyond the barrier, shoots all his victims in an erratic manner and returns by walking around the sharp uphill curve and walks the track parallel to the Combe d’Ire and returns to the village of Chevaline. A forced walk 3km downhill would take 45min at the most. In the article there is indeed a person named Cédric … any anonymous person could be a maniac murderer. Perhaps we are digging too deep.

Cédric, autre villageois, abonde dans le même sens : « Je devais faire une promenade en montagne avec un ami qui m’a dit qu’il y avait des gendarmes partout. On ne s’attendait vraiment pas ça. Tout le monde se pose beaucoup de questions. On se demande qu’est-ce qu’il s’est passé. » Stupéfaction aussi pour cette quinquagénaire qui vit à Doussard : «¬Quand j’ai vu défiler les voitures de gendarmes, cela a attiré ma curiosité. Je me suis rendue jusqu’au barrage établi par les forces de l’ordre. » La médiatisation instantanée de ce macabre fait divers remue un village d’ordinaire si paisible : «-Quand on entend le nom de Doussard et Chevaline à la radio et qu’on parle de quatre morts par balles, je peux vous dire que ça fait froid dans le dos… » Cédric, lui, tente déjà de sortir de l’émotion du moment …

British coverage has once again shown the French how deeply they are disliked across the Channel

3-13-2013 at 12:01:56

Check (timeline by PD statements)

see timeline + quotes

BM says 300-400 yards(!)
BM says racing
PD .. Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur quelques mètres pour arriver sur le parking

But most important, BM always mentions a half hour bike drive whereas the PD timeline gives him ONLY 19 minutes max to go from Sign to Martinet(!)

Furthermore (fill/see for yourself) Killer X could never have escaped over RF without being seen by PD (yet BM mentiones both a 4×4 and a MC on RF!)

So … if we take 1515 and 1548 adn PD staement for true, we have BM statements which just doesn’t seem to fit!

— Max

3-13-2013 at 12:45:19

@Oui, completely agree that we are making it all too complicated, truth is often far simpler than a lie……. If the 4×4 was seen when BM says then it must have passed Martinet and seen the BMW there or came across it on the route, thanks NR for the explanation of the photo, although it is strange to see the police and a chap in a light coloured coat (EM) in the background, that was why I assumed it was from Chevaline. Regarding the possibility of a call from BM being picked up, surely it wouldn’t be immediate detection of location, just a general area, but agree this could then have been backed up by PD’s call, making it more accurate for positioning and event.

3-13-2013 at 13:17:01


On an emergency call, the location is pin-pointed instantly: GSM cell tower triangulation.

3-13-2013 at 13:25:14

‘Il n’y avait aucun bruit, précise-t-il encore’ (PD source)

This means that BM, while ‘lingering’ at Martinet could have heard the PD car coming.

3-13-2013 at 14:33:43

@Oui, does that mean that the telephone number is also seen by the call centre ? Probably is, but would it be different if the phone used was from outside the UK, when travelling and making calls mine always says ‘redirecting.

If they have a registered call with no number then it must be BM, if thy have a number then either way they know who called.

3-13-2013 at 15:15:04

@ Oui @ Linda
My point about the mobile emergency-number calling is that there must be “some” signal received by the cell towers even if it’s so weak as to not allow the voice communication channel to work, it needs to be strong enough to permit the data channel (SMS) to work.

It’s possible to have dead spots in a small area such as Martinet, but a working signal a few meters away. There was once on MZT someone who knew the European technology well and discussed this.

3-13-2013 at 15:24:02


A GSM network enables the exchange of information at high-speed data rates via satellites and mobile cellular towers across networks and company lines. Your number is recognized by SIM card (Subscriber Identity Module). From link, in all 27 EU countries the emergency numbers 112 and 911 can be used.

3-13-2013 at 15:24:11

@Oui, reading the link for the GSM, it does say that in rural areas it’s accuracy depends on the number of towers (less) and whether there are things in the way, chances are.

3-13-2013 at 16:16:51


The dead spots are determined by which carrier you are licensed to. A person next to you can have a normal signal while you cannot make a call. As from above discussion, all carriers are required indiscriminently to forward an emergency call. Voila. More about activating international roaming.


Annecy must be well covered by GSM towers, it would be quite different near Col du Chérel which would be rural. I’m certain up at 800m near Martinet signal reception is well possible as proven by the mobile call from PD. Two towers would have located cell phone within 100m accuracy. Even on the ski slopes coverage is possible, choose the telcom with best reception.

3-13-2013 at 23:52:15


Quick comment – short of time – so cannot dig out links or references at the moment. Shall try when I can.

Re: The Timeline #1

I thought that the timeline constraint caused by the builders, effectively implied that the timestamp on the photos was not correct French time. My guess would be UK time, but you never know if the phone was grandmas then it may be Swedish or even Iraqi.

(ie when the builders saw SAH and kept him waiting for 10 minutes while they blocked the road with building materials)

This statement included the detail that his eldest daughter was in the front passenger seat.

Re: The Timeline #2

Also thought that the motobike boys father (in village at bottom of valley) heard shots at 15:30

Re: Cell reception

I found a cell coverage map for the valley some time ago – it seems to be served by only one tower at the bottom of the valley – reception faded out almost exactly couple hundred meters before Martinet – approx anyway, because of resolution of map.

Different phones have slightly different antennae characteristics, so one phone may get signal another not in marginal area. In short BM statement seemed reasonable. Also backed up by media statement (by a local or possibly the prosecuter – can’t remember) that Martinet had no/poor reception and was used for shady activity.

Hope this helps – keep up the good work!

3-14-2013 at 00:20:13


What time is it?

You worry with minutes, while the killer always runs.

Focus on his perfil

BM saw a 4X4 followed by MC , ONF did not see BM.
ONF does not know the brand or model of MC.

What do you want more?

3-14-2013 at 00:23:26

What time is it?

You, you worry with minutes, while the killer always runs.

Focus on his perfil

BM saw a 4X4 followed by MC , ONF did not see BM.
ONF does not know the brand or model of MC.

What do you want more?

3-14-2013 at 08:40:49


What I want more? I want a timeline that fits! 🙂

Are you implying BM speaks the truth?
And that the MC as seen by BM, really exists?
And are you implying that that MC as seen by BM (and ONF) carries the killer?

Because Bacchus, if I want to ‘sandwich’ this between the 1515 pictures and the 1548 PD call (and the PD-meets-BM sequence) … I have a hell of a job … in other words it does NOT fit!


Now, I’m prepared to change any view I have on this matter. No problem. I have switched many times before. But ALWAYS based on some serious fact/clue/indication.

So Bacchus, tell me what is ‘wrong’ in the above facts/assumptions?

– 1515 pictures?
– 1548 PD phonecall?
– PD meets BM as told by PD?
– BM story?
– MC took route forestiere to escape?
– BM saw MC ‘halfway’
– ONF saw MC?
– BM saw 4×4 = ONF?

And all on that route forestiere between 1522 and 1540 (according to timeline )

Because Bacchus, you can come up with any profile … but you have to proof he was there. Can you proof that beyond any doubt??

— Max

3-14-2013 at 08:54:56


‘(ie when the builders saw SAH and kept him waiting for 10 minutes while they blocked the road with building materials)’

Do you have a source for this? (esp. the ’10 minutes’ stuff)

Because, if so, the 1515 fact/fix simply can not be correct (and as a consequence, the investigators have a tech level below zero and/or the press statement guys are of 70 Iq-ish levels;)

3-14-2013 at 09:44:00


I suppose that the 10 minutes can be referred to as inventive journalism, if they were ever published.

3-14-2013 at 09:55:45


From Bacchus, he states to find killer X look at his “perfil”. His reference to Cédric is to focus on the local scene. He clearly states the forestry guys in ONF 4×4 were participants, complicit or know the person who murdered four people. BM in perhaps some discrepancies, saw the ONF vehicle followed by the MC. ONF cannot provide any testimony as evidence, didn’t even acknowledge seeing BM on the small, climbing road and no recollection about MC. Furthermore, why did they not come forward after the massive media attention in the Haute-Savoie which is isolated and normally tranquil.

About timeline …
For me it is a fact that the 15:48 emergency call was from BM’s mobile phone. In an article I read, Philippe Didierjean mentioned he put through his emergency call around 16:00 hours. This is much, much more logical. In your timeline, I don’t see the block where SM was climbing the 3km tot Martinet. Isn’t it true the BMW station of SAH must have overtaken SM on the climb as I have indicated earlier?

For me there are two options left worthy of further attention: the local guy who targeted SM with SAH family as collateral and secondly a hit on either SM or SAH or the combination of both by a French or foreign intelligence service. A local “wall of silence” or one by French/British officials because of national security concern. On foreign policy concerning the Arab Spring in North Africa and the civil war in Syria, the British and French have been in agreement and contrary to Germany or EU policy. This fact isn’t minor!

You rightly have proven beyond possible inaccuracies of a testimony, someone is not telling the truth and/or holding back crucial information.

3-14-2013 at 11:36:37
3-14-2013 at 11:38:45

L’affaire de la tuerie de Chevaline, où une famille britannique avait trouvé la mort en septembre dernier en Haute-Savoie, fera l’objet les 19 et 20 mars prochains à La Haye d’une réunion organisée par l’unité européenne de coopération judiciaire.

L’objectif de cette rencontre, qui se déroulera dans les locaux d’Eurojust, est de faire avancer une enquête pour l’instant au point mort, a déclaré à RTL le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Eric Maillaud. «Il est essentiel qu’il y ait une réunion comme celle-ci qui permette de faire le bilan de l’enquête et une synthèse de tous les éléments recueillis par les uns et par les autres», a expliqué le magistrat.

«Les enquêteurs vont ainsi récupérer un maximum d’informations qui permettront peut-être de déboucher sur des solutions dans cette affaire», a-t-il ajouté. «C’est essentiel compte tenu des barrières des langues ainsi que des barrières juridiques entre les différents pays».

3-14-2013 at 12:15:26

@ Lars 3-14-2013 at 09:44:00
“@Max : I suppose that the 10 minutes can be referred to as inventive journalism, if they were ever published.”

It’s mentioned here:

But this story has the BMW at Laurent’s spot at 14:40 which can’t be possible if the photo was really at 15:15.

I wonder, is it possible in a rural are some people “tell time” according to their own custom and the reporters, not being from the area, misunderstand.

I remember different families in the same area — not different languages — said the time differently. For 15:30 some would say half-past three while others said half-of-four and a few might say it’s half on it’s way to four. The :15 and :45 they would say in different ways too, but I don’t remember how.

3-14-2013 at 12:22:54


That is a very good article (one of a very few) but it contains, for some reasons, errors in the time-line.

3-14-2013 at 12:30:57

Would Laurent have said 15.20 in stead of 14.40?

Normally, french would say ‘quatorze heures quarante’ (14.40)

But perhaps he said ‘plus ou moins quinze heures vingt’ which could have been misheard as ‘quinze heures moins vingt’ (15.00 – 20 = 14.40) although the french normally do not use ‘quinze heures moins vingt’

15.20 of course would FIT EXACTLY with the 15.15 pictures!

Btw, the 10 minutes reference?

‘Une semaine après le drame, Laurent, bouille ronde et yeux bleus, situe le passage de la famille Al-Hilli “à dix minutes près”.’

This means imho that Laurent give a timewindow of +/- 10 minutes (but not that AH ‘waited’ 10 minutes)

— Max

3-14-2013 at 12:39:39

Btw, do the 1515 pictures exist on the internet? I would like to see them. Do we know the exact location (to make sure)? And if yes, HOW do we know this location?

soucres plz?


— Max

3-14-2013 at 12:54:02


You are quicker than me! I just reread the article and you are quite right.

No, there are no pictures on the internet.

I am not morbid but it would also be very interesting to see the pictures taken by the investigator of Sylvain Mollier. Sylvain Mollier was shot 5 times and dragged by a car several meters on the tarmac. I think that would make him quite a terrible sight (I have seen that type of photos before). Still Brett-Martin believed that he was resting!

3-14-2013 at 13:01:35


Yes, the exact location for the pictures is known. I am quite certain that it is mentioned somewhere earlier in our threads. A picture of the house (covered with flowers) was published by one of the british tabloids.

3-14-2013 at 13:14:09


The Sun published this photo of idyllic house in Doussard taken by Scott Hornby. I searched often for the exact location and did not succeed. It was supposed to be on the Rue de la Poste.

Info and photos of Doussard

3-14-2013 at 13:18:07

The photos were taken infront of a house covered in flowers, I posted a link to this from a British newspaper an age ago. The house is apparentyl nrxt to the post office in Doussard (?). As for the timings, I regret to say that the French don’t universally use the same language to express time, some use the 24 hour other not, mostly they use the hour then + up to 30 minutes and then – the next hour after that. Eventhen they are prone to using the quarter and half.

3-14-2013 at 13:22:36

@Lars @Max

Fool me once, fool me twice but the third time I got you …
Crossing Route d’Arnand and Rue de la Poste.

3-14-2013 at 13:24:24

I actually thought that at a later date, the builder changed his timings …. also the expression of time is often different depending on circumstances ie making a rendezvous for a dentist etc.

3-14-2013 at 14:19:28

Coverage by

Le procureur d’Annecy, Éric Maillaud, a indiqué jeudi que les enquêteurs avaient recueilli différents témoignages faisant état d’un “certain nombre de véhicules, dont notamment un 4 x 4”, comme pouvant être celui du ou des tueurs en fuite. “Ils essayaient de doubler tout le monde, alors que la circulation était fluide, ils paraissaient très nerveux”, a raconté cet homme. “Au début, j’ai cru que c’étaient deux filles à l’intérieur, mais, une fois qu’ils m’ont dépassé, ils avaient l’air bizarre, avec des cheveux bizarres, comme s’ils portaient des perruques”, a-t-il assuré. “Ils conduisaient comme s’ils étaient en fuite, ils semblaient très nerveux”, a-t-il dit.

3-14-2013 at 14:30:05

@Oui, wasn’t this relating to the white Peugeot, seen by Sylvie ? Yes the house is the one beside the stream and bridge, I wonder if it was for sale ?

3-14-2013 at 16:33:10


No, Sylvie LaCoeur saw a single male person driving the “white” car. On blogs, a car was reportedly seen with two persons and what seems like wearing wigs. This is an article describing the witness statement.

3-14-2013 at 16:44:09

So, the 4×4 seen by BM isn’t from the ONF – I would like to point you all again towards the strange death of Frederic Brun known as Brindille (twiggy – he obviously wasn’t), from Ugine, on the 29th of September in a dark coloured Pajero, he died in the back seat while the two others jumped from the vehicle as it left the road, mid air, on a 30 metre drop – who was the driver and front seat passenger ? When is the inquest into this death, he was cremated eventhough last reports say toxicology results were awaited.

Registration number : BW 216 FM, new registration on an old car, go to Le Dauphine for the articles relating to this.

3-14-2013 at 17:23:52


I’m prepped to look at that angle (again)

A long time ago, also going over the timings, I had the idea that 32/3 ppl wanted to do something at Martine, but 2 of them aborted the mission (4×4) but 1 stayed to continue and made the massacre (MC)

3-14-2013 at 18:13:52

@Max, the ONF vehicle could have left the route forestier before BM started the ‘climb’ or diverted onto the Moulin track, hence they were in the area, saw the MC above Martinet told it to get off, then left – was there a 4×4 parked in the middle of Martinet ? Convinced the ONF knew the MC and the mysterious 4×4, too scared to come forward, suspecting one or all were the killers, althoug in reality they couldn’t know this, just as likely to be one of the walkers on the mountain or a nutter in the woods, but they do suspect.

3-14-2013 at 21:57:38


Suppose it were 3 guys, 25-30 year type. Who thought much of CS because she is a ‘looker’ (well I dunno that but saw 1 picture which actually shows a pretty face)

Anyway, those 3 guys are a bit ‘angry’ with the situation that a much older guy (SM) can get this girl.

They decide to give him a shock treatment. Playing out some kind of weird play toying with ‘granddad’ SM (and his relation with ‘little girl’ CS)

2 guys dressup as (young) girls while the third is carrying the gun to give SM the shock of his life.

Somehow, the prepared ‘play’ at Martinet goes not according to plan, because the AH’s turn up just at the moment as the 3 guys are awaiting SM ‘s arrival.

Now the 2 ‘girls’ abort the plan, but number 3, the gun carrying guy (who is the ‘leader’ perhaps having a crush on CS himself) doesn’t want to quit.

The ‘girls’ leave in the car. Yet the ‘boy’ (aka MC aka X) stays, goes into overdrive mode. Kills SM on arrival and goes totally off world and kills eveverybody in a ‘rage’

(iirc, I sort of had this idea before … but without the ‘wigs’ … ‘wigs’ could be important as to ‘set the scene’ or motive)

Federic Brun??? I dunno, but couldn’ hurt to look into again (I have to give credits to those who did in the past … I didn’t;)

This scenario btw, explains away the ONF. Probably a good thing. Perhaps ONF were around in space but not in time. Perhaps they even ‘redirected’ MC/X … but possibly much prior to the shooting

On antoher note, this scenario brings back in BM as credible so the timeline is differetn. Tight but perhaps just doable. I’ll make one later.

The all for bringing this up again;)

— Max

3-14-2013 at 21:59:33


re: Frederic Brun

I know from my Diana research that in the event of a car accident, only on the body of the driver, if a fatality, will an autopsy be performed. An autopsy is not performed on the body of a passenger. This means that there would have been no autopsy carried out on the body of Frederic Brun.

3-14-2013 at 22:01:31


Just came for a peep as I am still tied up … hand and foot. (Sounds interesting, does it not?)

Seriously, I am checking a first draft of the new paperback of my Die in Paris and it will still take me quite a few days.

3-14-2013 at 22:31:55

@Max 3-14-2013 at 12:30:57

> ‘Une semaine après le drame, Laurent, bouille ronde et yeux bleus,
> situe le passage de la famille Al-Hilli “à dix minutes près”.’

> This means imho that Laurent give a timewindow of +/- 10 minutes
> (but not that AH ‘waited’ 10 minutes)

My understanding of “à dix minutes près” is that it means “within 10 minutes”

So, yes you are right it doesn’t mean that they were delayed by ten minutes.

I had not read the original in french, but rather an article in english which re-worded or mistranslated his words. Thanks for spotting that. I wonder what else I have wrong through not going back to the original source?

Or even what subtleties of nuance I have missed. Perhaps EM is being ironic when he says the answers lie back in the UK.

3-14-2013 at 22:39:50

c´mon. that kind of speculation is not your style 😉
Be serious: if somebody is “put out of service” like the guy in the 4×4 there has to be a reason for this. I can´t make it up jet. But I am still convinced that ONF guys know X and that anybody else in the region knows (including EM). I think it it has to do with the organisation X belongs to. Something like camorra with an omertá.

3-14-2013 at 22:53:10

Looking at the combination of CRPF, Annecy and the Haute-Savoie …

La forêt privée à la R’vola de GRUFFY

Le Centre Régional de la Propriété Forestière (CRPF) et l’Union des Forestiers Privés de Haute Savoie Section BAUGES ont participé à la fête d’automne sur la commune de Gruffy. Tout au long de la journée, 2 techniciens du CRPF (LOMBART Christian et FECHOZ Cédric) ont animé le stand de la forêt privée.

Le CRPF Rhône-Alpes organise, en partenariat avec les Forestiers Privés de Haute-Savoie, une journée de visite du Salon bois-énergie de Saint-Etienne.

Pilote Parapente Boomerang GTO – Club: Vol Libre Albertvillois.

Documentation de L’Observatoire Grande Faune et Habitats

Sonia Said (ONCFS) , Christian Lombart (CRPF Rhône Alpes)
Thierry Chevrier (ONCFS) et Olivier Mercier (CRPF Rhône Alpes)
Avec la participation du Lycée Agricole de Poisy

I could find no link to Mollier. A longshot is the following, an activity report about the region Massif de Bauges where both CRPF Haute-Savoie and CRIIRAD are mentioned.

Remember the article about the “walker”, a villager who returned to see what the emergency was – » Cédric, lui, tente déjà de sortir de l’émotion du moment «.

3-14-2013 at 22:59:32

Just found the quote below, which says that Suhaila took the 15:15 photo. Unfortunately it doesn’t say who owned the phone. Two were found in the car. One belonged to SAH. Maybe the other (which took the photo) belonged to Suhalia and was on Swedish time.

“A 15 h 15 précises, Suhaila al-Allaf, 74 ans, la belle-mère, a pris une photo de la famille.”

From the third para of this web page:-

3-14-2013 at 22:59:51


I always ‘speculate’ within hte margins of what is possible (be assured) 😉

This scenario can be very well fitted.

The only real ‘weak’ point is that I’d expect MC/X (as seen by BM) to be in a hurry. For the 4×4 that is not needed as they had left the scene ‘prior’

They (4×4, mc AND SM) would have come and go via ‘route du moulin’ which is the simplest way from Ugine to Martinet.

The ‘panic’ of the 4×4 could be explained because MC either contacted or cathedup the 4×4 and told what really happened.

To me, this ‘speculation’ is much more credible than any ‘world spanning nuclear connection stuff’ … In fact it is a quite simple explanation … a local CS ‘sex’ case terribly gotten out of hand.

It would be nice if that FB could drive a motorcycle;)

— Max

3-14-2013 at 23:05:06


“BM saw a 4X4 followed by MC , ONF did not see BM.”

It is a fact ? YES or NO ?

“ONF does not know the brand or model of MC.”

It is a fact ? YES or NO ?

I await your answers.

3-14-2013 at 23:05:50

Triangulation continued…

I have on my computer made a sort of “family tree” with photos of “all” the persons known to have been at the crime scene, and those closely related to the persons at the scene.

I have also drawn arrows between their photos, to indicate their relationships.

(You know these kind of photo assemblages if you have watched too many crime series on TV).

I make two conclusions about these photos directly. First of all these are not the kind of people that you would expect to turn up in a massmurder investigation. That is not a prejudice but based on criminological statistics. Perhaps you could see them in connection with a shooting by some mad man in a mall, or some other big public place, but otherwise, very seldom.

I have stressed that earlier, but I like to do it again: This murder case is quite unusual for two reasons, the place where it was commited, and the persons involved. Still just based on statistics.

My second conclusion when I look at the photos ist that Sylvain Mollier is not at the center of all these arrows, but somebody else.

What I am really missing are some arrows connecting Brett-Martin to the local community, I am getting more and more convinced that they are there somewhere. It is just a question how intricate these connections are and where to find them.

3-14-2013 at 23:07:45

Oh my !

@Marilyn, didn’t know that – bit silly really, so the tox reports can only be on the alive DRIVER ! Only two door, so rear passenger would have been trapped.

I assumed all deaths that aren’t natural, or occur whilst under a doctor due to a known illness would be worthy of post-mortem, silly me! Guy in the back of the car could have died of injuries, heart attack, drug overdose or battering and no-one would have checked ? I am truly shocked!

3-14-2013 at 23:12:04


As far as I know we in Sweden have the same time as France has.

Or as we prefer to put it: They use swedish time in France. 🙂

3-14-2013 at 23:22:32


BM must have many links

BM – BM = UK – UK (weak link)
BM – SM = Bike – Bike (weak link)
BM – CS = Military (very weak link)
BM – scene = Supossedly saw ALL elements (AH, SM, MC, 4×4) (strong link)
BM – local = BM lives near, knows Martinet, with possibility of timing exactly (strong link)

BM – X = ??? (unknown)
BM = X ??????????

Come to think of it … could BM have wear an extra protective shirt/gloves of thin material, which would protect him from gunpowder (the ‘gunpowder test’)? He could have wear this during the killing (BM=X) and taken it off, and because it was very thin ‘smuggled’ it out of the scene like the gun.

— Max

3-14-2013 at 23:39:06


Those links are too weak for me (or my tree).
But they point of course to places where you can look for stronger links.

3-14-2013 at 23:42:02


As far as one could speak of facts in this case: The answer is yes to both of your questions.

3-14-2013 at 23:49:48


In my ‘BM lured AH’ scenario, the UK – UK link is essential to ‘explain’ the befriending of AH and BM.

A small detail in that scenario is that the masons who saw AH, did NOT see BM. This leads to me assuming that BM took ‘route du moulin’ … Now this is not so strange. SM probably took that route too … but for SM that was logical, coming from Ugine and all. But for BM??? …

… but in a ‘BM lured AH’ scenario, BM most surely would not wanted to be seen with AH going up that RF, that is why AH took 1 road and BM took another (route du Moulin)

All, of course seen in a ‘BM lured AH’ scenario. A scenario to explain the BM weirdness and also an explanation why the AH’s were happy at 1515 and going up to Martinet to do what exactly??? (well, they went up because BM said them to do so ‘I will meet you up there’)

3-14-2013 at 23:51:28

SM – his pockets had been searched/emptied, he must have had a phone with him as CS said she would have expected a call to account for his lateness, she no doubt called the phone. She was also asked to bring a photo of him to the gendarmerie, so he had no ID on him either, why not ask her to bring his ID card, because he had it with him, killer went through the pocket/s realising he’d got the wrong man and killed a family in the process.

3-14-2013 at 23:53:07

Looking at the profile posted by Zak Martin

L’Acca de Saint-Jorioz fait la une du Journal, le Chasseur Haut-Savoyard

Marcel Bouvier et son CA ont invités les agriculteurs locaux pour une réunion d’infos, a laquelle assistaient les responsables de l’ACCA de Duingt. Large et objectif tour d’horizon sur le bilan des prélèvements de cette dernière saison, sur la situation de la faune sauvage avec un comportement inhabituel cet hiver, rassemblée en nombre important sur des zones d’hivernage en partie basse de notre commune en quête de nourriture faisant cruellement défaut.

Ces parcelles accueillent une bonne population de petits et grands cervidés, laquelle, pour l’instant ne met pas en péril l’équilibre sylvo-cynégétique. Cédric Féchoz, technicien au CRPF (centre régional de la propriété forestière) et Jacky Dursent, vice-président de l’ACCA ont participé à cette sortie très enrichissante, grâce à la volonté commune de toutes les structures concernées.

Trois experts de l’AFMT (association française de mensurations de trophées) au sein de l’Association Nationale des Chasseurs de Grand Gibier, Marcel Bouvier, François Bovagne et Roger Janin ont coté le chevreuil prélevé par Jean-Philippe Hérisson, en chasse d’été sur la commune de Saint-Jorioz le 15 août 2012.

Let’s not forget excellent post by Eugene on 12-8-2012 at 15:08:10.
Hits the subject matter at hand right on!

3-15-2013 at 00:06:49


Great ! Finaly !

3-15-2013 at 00:15:10


Thank you !

3-15-2013 at 00:17:28


They of course lived pretty near each other in England, and could of course have met through their jobs. But I can’t think of a way to lure the al-Hillis to Martinet. I have travelled that road in Google street view and it actually does not look exactly inviting. I still wonder what made them go there. But Mr. al-Hilli was obviously a spontaneous man.

With Brett-Martin following Sylvain Mollier it is easier to explain why they both went by Route Moulin. For Mollier it was the natural choice and Brett-Martin was just following him.

3-15-2013 at 00:31:18


It was me not Lynda;)

But I have more tricks up my sleeve, lol, about the ‘luring’ (I know, it is out of this world … very devious if tru)

SYMONDS: It’s not unusual to see a family?
MARTIN: Not unusual. In fact last year or maybe the year before, I took all my family up to that very car park as a family, so, pretty normal.

BM took his family, so why not AH? The devious part is the ‘luring’. Of course, in this scenario BM wouldn’t want to be in the same BMW as the ‘mask’ (mask for SM killing) … Well, the BMW had no vacant place anyway, with AH, 2 girls, 2 women. So BM proposes to go by bike himself … how convenient. That is why AH’s were not in a hurry, because they knew BM had to bike up there …

… I know, if true it is develish devious;)

— Max

3-15-2013 at 00:37:06

So BM makes appointen with AH’s at postoffice. But BM in the mean time checks if he sees SM. This is needed for the ‘sync’. The point where BM can spot SM is just around the corner. But in that ‘spotting’ time AH’s make the 1515 picture. Anyway, BM sees SM. Now he has to quickly return to AH’s to make the ‘sync’ work.

BM says to AH ‘We will go to Martinet … I will meet you upthere’ The AH’s are all in a good mood, and in no hurry … on their way to Martinet … as THE MASK … while BM goes up with the bike and knowing what will happen in some minites if all goes according to plan (sync and all). Killer X is in hiding at Martinet already.

Pffff … no nukes … but what a story;)

3-15-2013 at 01:13:47


Is this just about how you would have the crime detective end?

Crime passionnel, possible lost friendship with mother of newborn child

Military training 13 Eme Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins

Brother attended Lycée Jean Moulin ALBERTVILLE

Identical educational institute for Laurent

Family in St. Pierre d’Albigny

3-15-2013 at 01:30:45


It’s late I missed a link, correction:

Brother attended Lycée Jean Moulin ALBERTVILLE

Case solved.

I’ll go out tonight a do some serious hunting, as Zak pointed in his profile to someone familiar with hunting. The recognition by ONF led to a blind rage and further killing. Made sure his target was 100% dead, a few more shots. The hit over the head fits a hunter’s profile. There were some technicians at hand, not the specialists we had in mind. A very local cause and sad event. A wall of silence persists …

3-15-2013 at 08:02:19

@Lynda and @All

re: autopsies

Doctors do a physical examination of car passenger fatalities to be able to say that X died of ruptured aorta whatever,but they do not cut. Such a physical examination is not considered an autopsy. Where there is an unexpected death, even in the presence of a doctor or in a hospital, family is allowed to ask for an autopsy to know what the cause of death was.

In the case of Diana, there was no autopsy but because she was treated at a hospital, they knew her injuries and which one had caused her death. Henri Paul the driver had a full autopsy (cut him open etc.). As for Dodi he also had just a physical examination to determine the cause of his death. I can tell you that the injuries of those three and of Trevor Rees Jones were horrific. (I really think I must write that book about Diana’s death – ‘Scenario of a Death’ is the working title – despite that my agent tells me that publishers are telling him that such a book will endanger my life and they would not be able to protect me and that Zak Martin had also warned me about such a book.)

In the case of Frederic Brun, the driver would have been tested for alcohol, illegal substances and whether he might have had a heart attack or stroke behind the wheel which had caused him to roll the car or smash into something. As for an inquest, which you mentioned in a previous comment, there would have had to be one because if Brun had life insurance the insurer would have wanted to know what had happened, and if the driver had been at fault his passengers, and Brun’s next of kin, could have claimed damages from him and his insurer. However, it would have been a few minutes in a local court with no journalists present because I am sure that the accident fell under the heading ‘banal’.

3-15-2013 at 08:55:40

@ Oui 3-15-2013 at 01:30:45
“Case solved.”

It is an elegant solution and may well be correct. BM and the SAHs were collateral damage, whether they were meeting there on purpose or just arrived there coincidentally and unrelated. One or both could have some national security connection which caused much activity and suppression of pics, but that was unrelated to the massacre.

One way of proving the theory is to report it to M. Murdoch’s UK Sun. Their star reporter Alex West is fearless at confronting fiends and monsters worldwide — usually paedophiles and such — but surely would not quail at calling a murderer a murderer face to face, especially if it sold papers.

We need wait a few weeks though, as M. West is in Montreal, simultaneously reporting for The Sun and acting as a witness for the prosecution in a preliminary hearing in that city. He has with him his own lawyer, I think to insure he does not perjure himself and become incarcerated in an igloo at the North Pole. My theory is that the prosecutors do not have so strong forensic evidence as people think and need West to build a circumstantial case.

3-15-2013 at 08:59:46

@Lars, Oui and Bacchus,

The answer to your question ‘BM saw MC and ONF’ depends on if you believe BM

Lars made me rethink BM. A good thing, I’m now more aware of all timeline consequences.

1. As off now trying to fit BM statements in 1515 pictures and 1548 PD with PD stories and mason stories embedded is very difficult … BUT we can decided BM speak the whole truth and work from there.

2. You also can decide BM is not the truth. You will get a timeline with more possibilities BUT you have also to fill in BM’s role, which is not easy.

I remind you that if you take option 1. (ok for me) you have to initially SKIP the ONF statements. Those guys came much later and in fact could have constructed a kzillion diffenrent stories. In other words … do NOT try to ‘fit’ ONF statements in the timeline and work from there. ONF statement possibly ‘wreck’ the timeline. E.g. ONF says they ‘redirected a MC’ … but who is there to check/verify this. ONG easily could have made up this (but we try to ‘fit’ it??? Nope, just initially SKIP all ONF statements)

Timeline prio sequence:

1. 1548 PD
2. 1515 pictures
3. Mason (AH not in a hurry, gives lower limit on AH’s arrival at Martinet)
4. PD meets BM (calc times from PD story, gives upper lever of time of shooting)
5. Decide if BM speaks truth and fill in
6. Only now ONF comes in

3-15-2013 at 09:09:54


I think that luring-scenario raises more questions than it answers. Why Martinet of all places? What is Sylvain Mollier’s role? How do you tell a family with small kids in a car that you are going to meet 5 km away, up in the woods, while you yourself is going there on bike? What were they going to do at Martinet that they could not do in Arnard or Chevaline? and so on…

3-15-2013 at 09:11:07

Correction to above: “SAHs were collateral damage” not BM.

@Lars 3-15-2013 at 00:17:28
“@Linda: They of course lived pretty near each other in England, and could of course have met through their jobs.”

I put this at CM but they said it had been discussed early on and they didn’t think much of it: “Did we ever consider that the meeting at Martinet was not between SAH and SM, but between SAH and BM? SAH worked on the AirBus and BM was somehow involved in the 787. “Brett Martin: Consultant B787 PSIP/SFI Boeing UK Training and Flight Services.” BM and SAH trading info one direction or the other or both directions?

3-15-2013 at 09:21:43


AH were send there to ‘mask’ the killing of SM and to make it look like a ‘nutter’ case.

The ‘luring’ can be a direct consequence of ‘not believing BM’.

If you do not want to believe BM you have to give him a ‘role’. His role is to cover up a killing. SM was the target, AH is the cover up.

Remember it was you (a.o.) who doubted BM’s statements, but then you also have to explain WHY BM would deviate from the truth

But of course … the AH’s could have been at Martinet just as tourists. Because in reagrds to AH there a re 3 possibilities:

1. They went there as tourists
2. They went the for a ‘meeting’
3. They were lured there

We all know that 1 is the most likely, but my ‘lured’ scenario at least tries to paint what could have happened in case3.

3-15-2013 at 10:02:44


Ok I understand your line of reasoning. But I still believe that it is to complicated. The family would make a very unpredictable “façade”. Noone could know how they were going to behave, especially with to little kids. The girls could have started screaming half-ways: “Daddy we don’t wanna go there!!” and what would daddy had done?

I have restricted myself (in the Brett-Martin-scenario) to assume that his role was to help the shooter, to cover his back, help him with the preparations, and possibly to help him get rid of the body. I think that is bold enough. 🙂

3-15-2013 at 10:40:14

@Marilyn Re: Diana Book
Maybe you should use an “Alter Ego”. You know B.Traven? He was never uncovered for sure. But pls. write it.

3-15-2013 at 10:47:03

@Max re: Skip ONF statement redirecting MC

I have my probls with that, because I think that MC=X was late and in a hurry when he started shooting at SM. But why would he be late, if not something took longer, e.g. being redirected, then expected?

So if you take out that bit, I have a problem with the hurry X was in. Wouldn´t he otherwise have made sure that he arrives a bit in advance to SM? And wouldn´t he had made sure that nobody else is there?

In fact presumably X didn´t, but immediately after arrival of himself and him seeing SM opened fire.

3-15-2013 at 11:08:36

@MAx, Lars, Qui Re: Role of BM

Initially I was a strong follower of the theory that BM was the intended, but missed, target. I find the idea of BM being a volunteer helper of X too bold. I mean, BM would have the full risk, he´s in the public, he´s under police investigation etc. etc. Who would do that? And what for? No I do not believe that. BUT I do believe – like Zak – that BM is not telling the truth and the big question is : Why?

Now I´ve thought of the following scenario:

BM saw at least the last part of the killing and X. Unfortunately for BM X sees him too. After X leaves in a hurry BM goes to Martinet and positions Zainab (that is a fact because she was found like this) and does maybe a few more things that take time (we don´t know what, because we have only his testmony – which we doubt), then he rushes off in a hurry – still in perfectly honest intentions – and bumps into PD which is lucky because this may have saved Zainabs life.
Now the trouble of BM begins. BM is immediately presented with his complete name to the public as the hero, Hence X now knows BM by name. Now X gets somehow (email, text message, part of paper pinned at his house, doesn´t matter) in touch with BM and says basially: “You´ve seen nothing or your family will die!”
BM knows that X is capable of killing women and children and he simply obeys this order. And the best way to do it is, making it very public!
Of course BM tells EM the truth. EM has what he want, namely the person to observe, and agrees to stage the interview, repeating everything has its roots in Britan etc. and hence protecting BM until X is caught by making a mistake (e.g. gun is found).

This scenario would also explain why BM only gave this one (!) interview. More interviews would have meant a big risk of inconsistencies and hence problems.

3-15-2013 at 11:28:25


I am much more sure about the “Le Monde-scenario” than I am about my own little “Brett-Martin-scenario”. I just proposed it to explain certain parts of Brett-Martin’s behaviour and the role of the 4X4-guy.

I however think that you make one mistake. In my scenario Brett-Martin of course never intended to be noticed, but with the killing of a whole family, all the planning went awry, and so Brett-Martin became a public figure. I think that Lynda expressed the same thought above, hadn’t Brett-Martin met Philippe Didierjean on his way back, had we probably never heard about a Mr. Brett-Martin.

Your scenario is certainly an alternative. What I find hard to explain why Brett-Martin had to fear for his own life when he is back in England. I mean, can the Englisch police protect Salman Rushdie against a fatwa, they could very well protect Mr. Brett-Martin. And why, if he was so afraid, is he still running his little business in Lathuile.

PS. I am also a big fan of B. Traven. If you read German I can recommend you to read this article ( It tells a little about his background in pre-WW I Germany.

3-15-2013 at 11:51:27

@ Marilyn re. autopsies

I don’t know about the situation in France, but, here in Germany, any kind of death must be officially certified by a medical doctor. If there is any suspicion of an unnatural death, be it an accident, suicide or homicide, this doctor and/or the police can order an autopsy to be performed.

This is rarely done, certainly not as often as it ought to be, because of the cost involved: the pathologist performing an autopsy only charges approx. € 60 an hour, but the morticians charge approx. € 1000 to transport a body to the forensic laboratory and back to the funeral parlour. That cost has to be borne by the public purse, unless the next-of-kin specifically request an autopsy and are willing to pay for it out of their own pockets.

Without a proper autopsy (which does no longer need involve cutting people open, modern pathology suites use MMR scanners and ultrasound to create high-resolution 3D imagery of the entire body), it is simply *impossible* to determine the cause of death.

@ RiffRaff 3-15-2013 at 11:08:36

I hate to say it, but this point has been mentioned before. WBM’s interview was a somewhat long-winded way of saying “I didn’t see anything, honestly!” The idea that he may have chosen to give that interview in order to get that message across to the killer sounds quite plausible.

3-15-2013 at 12:00:08

@RiffRaff, Lars,

I have to say, I never thought of BM ‘being afraid of X’ 🙂 Good point.

But there is also a problem. A BIG problem for X, because X can never be sure about what BM told EM. And because of that it really does not matter what BM tells to the outside world, because X must take into account that BM told EM what he had really seen.

In this case EM (dossier) should know more than we (newspapers). The fact that X has not been caught yet makes me think EM himself knows not enough.

If it is a lone (known) killer/nutter, what is the problem to get him caught? The problem is not that the police simply’ waits for a good moment’, the problem is imho that EM simply does not know enough … and hence, that BM didn’t see enough.

… But, sure, it could also be that BM really knows and even did NOT tell EM about this. In that case he certainly is ‘caught in the web’ of X. (but again, I dont see how X can be sure of this)

3-15-2013 at 13:14:45

… unless X is part of a bigger ‘organisation’ … hmmm

3-15-2013 at 13:26:16

@ Max

I am not sure that EM does not know enough. I mean he can´t go out there and say: Hey I believe you´re X, you did it! He has to have evidence that the person he thinks was X actually is X. And that seems to be the problem. No DNA, no gun (at least jet found), no witness (except from BM maybe who in my scenario was too far away for a real identification of X), maybe no clear motive. Hence EM has to wait until “his” X makes a mistake, which would fit in what EM says. This might take long time to happen, e.g. maybe the gun is found and can be traced to X.

3-15-2013 at 13:54:39

@ RiffRaff

I admit that I used to think the same thing, that EM has a suspect and merely waits for that suspect to make a mistake.

However, I have recently learned a lot about real-life murder investigations. Things don’t work that way: if you have a suspect, you haul him into the station and sweat him, again and again if necessary. You might *also* tap his phone, read his emails etc., but you don’t just passively wait for him to make a mistake. You push him into making a mistake.

3-15-2013 at 13:58:07

@RiffRaff @Lars and @All

re: B. Traven

Ah, indeed, I have the ‘Treasure of the Sierra Madre’ in my home library. And I’ve seen the film several times on TV. Bogart, in his white suit, and wet lips, was superb.

Did not his widow reveal his identity?

So I can call myself just about anything for the Diana book, but stupid me, I’ve gone and talked about it on websites and blogs for the past two years.


re: autopsies.

Yes, here too a doctor has to certify death. Even when people were being guillotined a pathologist had to be present to certify that the headless person was dead. Ridiculous, not so? As if a headless person could still be alive.

Henri Paul, Diana’s driver was still cut open … Well, it will be 16 years ago this August.

I will tell you something else, Peter, which you may find interesting. Here in France the next of kin of the departed one has to pay a fee to each municipality of an arrondissement or a town the hearse passes through from the undertaker or hospital to the cemetery. Also, a coffin can not be closed without the next of kin certifying in writing to a policeman that the diseased in the coffin is who he/she is claimed to be. Also human ash can not be kept at home as it is considered a ‘body’. Once, I told a literary agent all this and he immediately wanted me to write a book about the very peculiar French but to make it a very funny book. I refused because I do not joke about death.

3-15-2013 at 14:30:49

@Peter Re: Push investigations

I must admit that I do not know much about real life murder investigations. Maybe this is the “french way” to do it. I don´t know, but bringing my theory of X being part of an organization back to the panel, I do have the feeling that even the german police is not pushing – lets say a hells angels – presumed murderer the same way that they do with a greedy uncle killing the children of his sister to get the house and pay off his debts.

Got what I mean? When we introduce a “third force” in this game, we can explain a lot of the strange behaviours of all our participants and investigatiors.

3-15-2013 at 16:15:10

MARTIN: Er, so it became quite obvious now, taking stock, that it was a gun crime. Now, I was getting a little bit anxious because I thought maybe there’s some crazy person in the woods because the whole area is wooded. It’s a sort of car park in a wooded area and I was …I then started scanning the woods to see whether there was some nutter who knows what with a gun and I was going to be the next shot, was it some sort of hunter with a high-powered rifle, shooting from a distance or what?

Why doesn’t he also say ‘Then I remembered I had seen a 4×4 and a MC … could those have been the gunman?’

Because I find this weird. In the interview he does not point to them, yet he mentiones them and on top of that, at least the MC never came forward … so I would imagine that at least BM, who was closest to the whole thing, would utter something like ‘Thinking about it, it might have been the MC’ … So, what is holding him back (because BM is quick enough to put forward the idea of ‘a nutter’)??

Because if we put the question straigth to BM as ‘According to you (BM), who is the killer’ … The only sensible answer of BM must be ‘Well, I guess it must be the MC I saw coming down’

(but he never said this … what is that? Behaving like an english gentleman? lol)

3-15-2013 at 16:40:25


Oh,they will be tapping the phones of a lot of people. If they suspect anyone they will be tapping that person’s phone. They will also be watching his movements. Scrutinizing his cell phone activity and that of his landline phone too.

Believe me, an investigator who goes and calls in the media when he/she reaches the end of a page in his/her dossier and starts a new one, that is a very stupid copper.

3-15-2013 at 19:49:27

Well, caught up on the comments, would like to tell you something about my day.

We were invited to an old friends for lunch, haven’t seen them for a few years, he shoots at a range and enters competitions. So, I asked him what he and his fellow gunclubbers made of the Chevaline shooting, one word ‘professional’. Why, the cleanliness of the gun and spent cartridges, in no way a nutter, a planned assassination.

Now, he has a Luger from 1932, today I handled it, I do not like guns, but I was interested in this particular style of weapon. The first thing that struck me was its weight, especially so with a full magazine, with the latter empty, he showed me how to fire this to obtain accuracy, two hands, and pull the trigger gently to avoid the front and site going upwards. We went through the mechanism for re-loading, impressive, I came to the conclusion that it would have to be a very cool customer. It felt that it wouldn’t be someone in a hurry, rushing that would have used this type of weapon.

3-15-2013 at 20:00:15


Thanks!! That’s what I like, hands-on experiments!

I’m glad that your friend also confirmed the impression, shared by all specialists that I have heard/read, that it was a professional shooter.

3-15-2013 at 20:20:22

Hmm…what was that professional shooter doing there, in the middle of nowhere…why had he (?) choosen such a strange place…
..and why did it all go so wrong in the end…

3-15-2013 at 20:31:25


I will not push (one of) my scenario(s) … but in the ‘lured AH as mask’ scenario, the scene would end up exactly as it was found. It would be like a ‘nutter’ but appearantly one who could handle a gun and was well aware of what he was doing, and who eliminated his first/only target (SM) with rigor.

As said, I won’t ‘plug’ this scenario, but I keep it as reserve anyway … as long as BM’s status is not 100% clear:)

To name this scenario in one line: Kill SM but ‘mask’ it as a ‘nutter’ case

3-15-2013 at 20:32:55

Interestingly he makes his own bullets, now I never thought that would be possible !

3-15-2013 at 20:36:02

@Lynda … btw, thx very much for the input! 😉

3-15-2013 at 21:00:38

Btw … just accept my humble extra post … take note that BM was quick enough to mention a ‘nutter’ (now if it was setup like ‘a nutter look alike’, he would say this)

3-15-2013 at 21:10:58

Thought I’d add another bit of the conversation, ‘why would someone use such an old gun?’

Reply ‘ an old Ferrari is still a Ferrari’ !

I have the Le Touquet Rally passing in front of the house today, we missed the first time trials as they were whilst we were having lunch, a good hours drive from here – the Gendarmes kindly escorted us home s our road is strictly offlimits, I just wish I could send you the sound !

3-15-2013 at 21:25:09


Yeah I know.

But to plan something to “go wrong” is a bit like singing out of key when you are a world class opera singer. Very few persons can do that in a convincing way.

3-15-2013 at 21:37:45

My conclusion is that it was a professional shooter but not a professional killer.

3-15-2013 at 21:56:23

Yet, another angle.

The AH’s. Why were they at Martinet?

The 1515 pictures seem to indicate they were not expecting anything.

1. A ‘secret/dangerous meeting’ (with the kids?)
2. Were they ‘directed/lured’ there?
3. Or were they simply tourists?

Frankly I don’t see option 1 as possible. Now skip option 2 we are left with option 3.

But option 3 poses us with an EXTREME example of a ‘sync’. What is the chance that AH (or SM for that matter) exactly run into a gunfight? Why were SM and AH’s killed without any remorse when it was NOT planned?

The idea that the AH’s went there with 4/7 year old kids to see what exactly(?) that is already cumbersome (despite BM saying that ‘families go up there’ … no, he TOOK his family up there, that is different, you act as a ‘guide’) … but to arrive there and be shot 2 minutes later (on arrival of SM) that is just too much away from normal statistics:)

… to put it in one line …

AH’s were there, SM arrives. SM is killed, and AH’s are killed too. The killing of AH is NOT necessary (the killer simply could have ‘masked’ himself, helmet, glasses, whatever) … but no, the killer goes into overdrive and creates a massacre while AH attempt to escape???

ok, 2 lines;)

Why did X not wait and/or replace the killing spot of SM? Why the ‘needles’ killing of the AH’s? Why act like a ‘nutter’ but making very very sure your target SM is very very dead with 7-8 bullets (iirc)?

As said, I’m not ‘plugging’ but the ‘lure’ scenario could have multiple ‘abort’ stages. AH had to be ‘recruited’, then SM and AH had to be ‘raw synced’, then the sync had to be finetuned (that is BM checking SM’s passing Arnad and sending AH to Martinet) … if all these steps were succesfull it was for X to finish the job. (but I will admit, there are weak parts also in this scenario … eg. why did BM bother to go after AH to Martinet if he knew X would finiseh the job?)

— Max

3-15-2013 at 22:13:23

@max – that for you is too bizarre, I could accept that AH had met BM, in the area, spoken of a nice place to take the family, I could accept that AH had met BM near Lathuile, but for BM to set the AH as a cover, why – he would have had to have some hatred in him to intend a family to be wiped out.

I have played with the idea that SM was to be teased, threatened even to behave etc. but why would a gun and its cartridges be so clean if they weren’t to be used ?

I have pondered and said that this wasa situation gone badly wrong, why was it necessary that the hit go ahead when there were obviously innocent children there ? Someone had gon,e so far that there was no going back.

@Lars, yes, professional, like my friend but not a Professional.

I am a little worried about Bacchus pointing afinger at a certain Cedric, this could be nothing more than a personal vendetta. So, Bacchus please explain your obvious implication ? Bacchus isn’t genuine, it plays behind I don’t know English and the sometimes it is word perfect – scroll back, my friends.

3-15-2013 at 22:22:13

Had this happened anywhere else but in France we would probably know what the al-Hillis were doing there.

I still think it is a chance that the older girl will remember that, or can be made to remember, even though that would of course be painful for her.

3-15-2013 at 22:52:59

@ Lynda 3-15-2013 at 20:32:55
“Interestingly he makes his own bullets, now I never thought that would be possible !”

It is important for the old Lugers P06/P08. We discussed before there is mention on WikiPedia talk pages (the edit pages for Luger P06/P08) that the weapons were designed for an original cartridge with a more powerful charge — more grains of powder — than what’s available to buy today. With the newer cartridges there is not always enough recoil and the weapon jams. Who was the weapons expert here? Is this correct?
Some at Wikipedia thought it was and others disputed it. If it was a pro collector and shooter, they’d also have the equipment to custom load.

Your instincts are correct re a finger pointing at someone. There were the same style comments at Craig Murray months ago I think.

3-15-2013 at 23:18:50


“I am a little worried about Bacchus pointing afinger at a certain Cedric, this could be nothing more than a personal vendetta. So, Bacchus please explain your obvious implication ? Bacchus isn’t genuine, it plays behind I don’t know English and the sometimes it is word perfect – scroll back, my friends.”

Sorry Lynda, I don´t speak very well english. I use Google traductor for my comments.

Often I make two levels of translation, From Portuguese to French and then from French to English. So I managed a better translation.

My only objective is to help find the truth.

You certainly have been here for others reasons. Destabilize perhaps?

Best regards.

3-15-2013 at 23:28:53


Personal attack on Bacchus has no ground whatsoever.

There are people who have a profound instinct or extra sense for an analysis in such a broad police investigation. What has been written in the media and on blogs is 98% speculation anyway due secrecy of French prosecutors.

3-15-2013 at 23:30:25


I remeber you that is lynda put me on this track, She is the first has mentioned the name of my suspect. Bizzare!

3-15-2013 at 23:30:46

No Family Secrets – the Molliers

I’m pretty sure I found the link how ski competitor Claire Schutz learned and met the Mollier family. I found a number of ski competition results years 2003-2008 where Claire (1986) participated and Alain Mollier-Camus was sports director. He had two family members who also participated: Laure Mollier (1985) and Marion Mollier-Camus (1988) members of Ski Club Notre-Dame de Bellecombe.

Family of French cyclist Sylvain Mollier speak out for first time

(Telegraph) Nov. 4, 2012 – Like the rest of the Mollier family, she is beginning to doubt that they will ever really find out what happened on the afternoon of September 5, high above Lake Annecy in the remote forested car park …

Alain Mollier-Camus, another cousin, who works in a nearby ski resort, added: “He was a sportsman and a family man. There’s nothing hidden there.”

A chapter from my book – A botched operation on Combe d’Ire by local Savoyards

3-15-2013 at 23:32:45

Fits the profile made in an early stage by Zak Martin

Keeping it simple and very local. Why change the name of local people like witness Philippe Didierjean? This would be natural when in a small community like Annecy and surroundings the person is well known. It would be strange for a false name with same elements like Jean-Philippe Hérisson, or would it? Person connected to Annecy and the local Chasseurs of Saint-Jorioz. These hunters have joint interest with the local guys from ONF and CRPF who often meet and exchange knowledge of the private foresters and the Massif des Bauges. In the information I provided in my last three posts there was a CRPF worker CF. Shortly after the killings a few villagers gathered at the foot of the climb at the gendarmes road closure. A villager named Cédric was interviewed, his state of restlessness and raw emotion seemed to me out of character, unless one is personally involved. This person had been hiking in the forest (Combe d’Ire?) at the time of the murders.

Checking out the CRPF person he was born in the same year as CS, an experienced and well known sporter alps skiing in the region Meribel south of his hometown of St. Pierre d’Albigny, a small village south of Jarsy. In his military training his alpine skills were necessary in the 13 Eme Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins. The Chasseurs Alpins (English: Alpine Hunters) are the élite mountain infantry of the French Army. They are trained to operate in mountainous terrain and in urban warfare. Earlier I had found the older generation having this tough military training, must be part of the way-of-live of men living in St. Pierre d’Albigny.

One of the options as motive we have covered earlier was the Crime of Passion.

Both BM and PD (or JP-H) sensed the presence of the killer still out there in the woods and felt uneasy. For BM it could have been human instinct of danger. For PD it could be foreknowledge as he himself is a hunter belonging to the club Les Chasseurs de Saint Jorioz and must have known CF.

So was the green 4×4 a CRPF vehicle as witness to events that fatal afternoon, but didn’t come forward in first three weeks. Did these local forestry guys play a role, drop off killer X because on foot he could lay in ambush and being a professional commando execute the killing. His mountain skill and as commando, he could easily leave the scene of the crime ar Martinet on foot and perhaps to an arranged meeting place for a pick-up. The parallel Route du Moulin or the dead-end road at the end of the hiker’s trail. Did the sirens at 16:05 scare of this contact person driving a small white car? Killer X was one very bad man!

3-15-2013 at 23:57:08


Personal attack on Bacchus has no ground whatsoever.”

Thx for your help.

The attidude of Lynda shows that we are not able to get out of this “cul-de-sac”, then invents history, question to pass the time.

if you read the comments several days ago, they are still the same. No evolution. Should all agree on the real facts. They are not many, but they exist.
We should put the facts on a list. The facts that we all feel real.

3-16-2013 at 00:09:26



Now that is a good question (no pun intended). Now I dunno why BM would do such a thing but it is within the limits of what is possible.

I know my scenario is very controversial (to be honest, I dont think myself it happened like this, I hope it did not happen like this, because, yes, that would mean mosters!)

But let’s face it. Suppose you want to eliminate SM. Would you ‘hire’ a person? But if you hire a person who kills SM, the motive points directly at circle-SM … hmmm, problem … so you better ‘mask’ it. But how to ‘mask’ it? Ask the hired gun, to kill ‘some more in the process’? How would he do that? …

… Nope, if you want to ‘mask’ it you have to think of a devious plan. A ‘massacre’ to also kill you target!

Make it look like a ‘nutter’ case and you can get away with it. That is the idea.

From that viewpoint I just thought out if it was within the possibilities of the known elements. Guess what … it IS! But yes, BM would have to had a strong motive to ‘help out’.

But the picture can be clear.

– X (freind of S?) waits at Martinet
– S ‘directs’ SM towards Martinet
– BM ‘drects’ AH towards Martinet and takes care of finetune syncing

Lynda, you said you could accept if BM knew AH. My dear God I hope not, because if BM really knew AH than this ‘nightmare’ scenario is one step closer to being valid!

But, for the puzzle I dont care. 4 ppl were slaughtered, we do not have to have any mercy on the murderer(s) and ppl involved. Just catch them.

BM for me is just a part of the puzzle. 1 minute a hero, the next minute part of the killing … dus 3 go there or 4? Its like a Sudoku. Everything in the end WILL FIT! 🙂

3-16-2013 at 00:21:58


And if Lynda was Marilyn, this explain alot of things 🙂


Provocatrice !?

3-16-2013 at 01:06:23


“Your instincts are correct re a finger pointing at someone. There were the same style comments at Craig Murray months ago I think.”

This is partly correct, but at this time I thought it was the guards of the ONF. Today, with the help of Lynda I think this is another type of guards.

3-16-2013 at 01:26:04


“There were the same style comments at Craig Murray months ago I think.”

Yes, it’s been months that I seek the TRUTH.

Why? Because SAH will not let me sleep!

3-16-2013 at 06:18:28

To all,

I’ve run out of ideas. As there are too few facts, further analysis is not possible for me. Thanks for the 6+ months of joint effort in this worthy cause. I trust the wheels of justice in France will move forward.

All the best.

3-16-2013 at 08:26:44


I do not tolerate commentators to attack other commentators. We have been civil and polite towards one another these past six months.

Bacchus, I do not know how you as a Frenchman regards the word provocatrice. To me, who is English, it has a very nasty meaning – and I am not that meaning. I’ve run this blog in a way to respect everyone. It is great how you have communicated with us in a language which is not your own and through using google translate. I appreciate this.

Bacchus you wrote in a comment:

And if Lynda was Marilyn, this explain alot of things
Provocatrice !?

Now you listen to me, you respect me and Lynda and everyone else here or you no longer come here to comment. I do not tolerate male chauvinism.

Oui has now said that he has run out of ideas and has gone. Thank you Oui for your 6 months of loyalty to us. We will miss you, but I understand how you feel.

Perhaps we have all run out of ideas. Facts, we certainly do not have. Or rather, the only fact we have is that we have no facts.

Last night the French cable network D8 reran its December documentary about the Chevaline shootings. Having watched it again I feel more than ever that the Saad Al-Hillis were the targets. It was said that the killer went with a firearm with a large bullet capacity because he knew how many he would have to kill. In other words, his aim was to wipe out all the Al-Hillis.

I further believe that Sylvain Mollier rode into the shooting and kicked up a fuss and was killed as well. The number of bullets he received shows to me that the killer was furious at him.

Perhaps the killer is sitting in his home in Slovenia, right now, reading what I am writing here. Maybe he has been reading what we’ve been writing these past 6 months laughing himself sick at how we are running circles around clues we do not grasp.

Anyway, if you have all run out of ideas, I can close this discussion for good, or until the crime is solved which may be in 10 or 20 years from now …? It is up for each of you to decide.

3-16-2013 at 09:43:09


I personally think that we are progressing. It might not seem so on the surface, but if you have followed this case since the 5th of September 2012, I definitely think so.

Since this is not some game or quiz but about real human beings, some dead and some alive, some have suffered greatly, there are thing that can’t be said out in the open. When someone make a poignant comment here, I might think: “-yes, that points directly to M. XX”, but I would hardly write that, since we can’t accuse people of murder here.

I would, for instance, very much like to publish my “familytree” (that I wrote about earlier) here, but I don’t think it would be appropriate, since it could then be spread and read over the whole Internet. Even though this familytree is mainly based on open sources it has taking me months to put together/collecting the data. And it contains mainly totally innocent people who just happens to be related to the victims and witnesses of this case.

I personally use this blog to test my own ideas, read about the ideas of others and keep myself informed about what is going on in this case. There are certainly things and ideas about this crime that I will never write about in this blog. And I can’t be totally open about what I think (or know) about all of the persons involved.

I then use this information for my own little private crime investigation, which is totally my personal responsibility. There I can think and do what I find appropriate.

3-16-2013 at 09:55:39


About “masking” a murder.

If we, for the sake of argument, assume that the killer wanted to “mask” the murder of SM, by also killing other people, I think that the “Mafia”-method would be a better choice.

You use a traditional Mafia-weapon (see above) and fire it from a car or a MC at SM and his friends, when they e.g. are sitting in a cafe or at a restaurant. Nobody would be any wiser what it was all about.

To do it in the middle of nowhere (at Martinet) seems to me a very strange idea.

3-16-2013 at 11:30:30


re: masking a murder

It is true what you say about Mafia weapons and methods.

Just last night yet another gangster was killed in Marseilles. He was burnt to death in his car. Gangsters are killing gangsters and the city of Marseilles where it is happening is being given a bad reputation. What they do is to open fire from the back of a scooter or motorcycle and always they do so on a public street.

Last night in the rerun of the D8 documentary on French TV it was pointed out by a gun expert that the kind of firearm used for Chevaline was *not* one gangsters used. It was not, by the way, called a Luger. The expert said that a gun with a 20 or more bullet capacity would have been very heavy (which Lynda confirmed to us yesterday) and the shooter would have had to hold it with both hands. He also said that the shattered windows of the BMW showed that the shooter had shot into the car at close range.

3-16-2013 at 11:31:42


It is not but an au revoir, but an a dieu.

See ya some time.

3-16-2013 at 11:52:28

I apologise for any upset I may have caused by my comment about Bacchus, especially regarding the ‘translation’.

Marilyn, some months ago you warned us NOT to accuse someone on this forum, if Bacchus is sure then he should be calling the police with his thoughts.

I don’t know why he thinks I pointed to a Cedric, that was a ‘conversation’ about Daillon, which in truth I don’t remember myself ! Probably more likely discussed to explain the mentally ill killer there, just not sure.

@Oui, I do hope I haven’t put you off this site I have very much appreciated your thoughts, as an aside my stepson has been in a mental facility again for the past three weeks, a very sad time in our household.

The Cedric from Doussard, was stated as being 52.

3-16-2013 at 12:22:57

@ Oui
I know how you feel. I hope that, in due course, fresh facts will emerge (e. g., in the upcoming trial of David John Abiodun), and that these may eventually lure you back …

@ All
Regarding the shooter’s “professionalism” or lack thereof, I have done some research. It is rare but not unheard-of for professional assassins deliberately to use vintage guns that are not registered in any databases. In one spectacular case, a professional assassin (who was a much, much better shot than the Chevaline killer) even went to the trouble to have ammunition machined for a vintage pistol, because the appropriate ammunition was no longer available. Machining your own ammunition, incidentally, is a wholly different matter than merely reloading ammo. Lots of people reload their own ammunition; most do so for cost reasons, some do so because the specific type of ammunition they want is not available ready-made.

Anyway, I don’t think that the type of pistol used in the Chevaline killings, considered on its own, justifies any firm conclusions regarding the alleged professionalism of the killer: He could have been a local man using the only gun he could lay his hands on, he could have been a local shooter using his only unregistered firearm, or he could have been a professional from goodness-knows-where who chose that gun because he wanted to make it look a local crime.

Insofar as the shooting itself is concerned, I am with Lars. The shooter was a competent shot, but not experienced at shooting people dead. He knew the theory, aiming for the victims’ heads and avoiding firing through the car’s bodywork, but he lacked the nerve. However, killing a large number of people is clearly what he had planned to do on that day (judging from the quantity of ammo carried and the fact that he had left no prints on the ammunition).

For the same reason, I do not buy the suggestion that killing the AHs was a staged deception. In order to stage such a deception, it would have sufficed to kill one of them, probably SAH. Or randomly to pepper their car with bullets. That would have worked: “Some nutter went berserk with a gun and shot at everything that moved. Poor SM, who wasn’t in a car and thus didn’t have the same degree of protection, bought it.” Yet that is not what the killer did. He spent a fair bit of time moving around the immobile car, purposely shooting the women inside, reloading, repositioning himself etc., and finally went to the trouble of trying to batter the daughter to death. In my opinion, that is *too much activity* to be a mere deception, it shows that this was his primary objective.

3-16-2013 at 13:47:47

@Lars and Marilyn,

But do realize the pictures 1515 AND the timestamp when SM must have passed within 400 meters(!) is ‘in sync’.

Furthermore there were all shot at Martinet

Furthermore SM was ‘directed’ on a route but supposedly ‘got lost’

Furthermore nobody has any clue what the AH’s where doing at Martinet

Now, if X was waiting at Martinet for his target(s), it only can be SM.

But if X was waiting for AH???? What made the AH’s going up there in no hurry with kids and taking pictures and all that

Marilyn, you say you believe AH were the targets? On what ground? And how did X ‘organize’ that AH would turn up at Martinet?

Just forget all AH … what does remain? SM was ‘directed’ to Martinet. X waited for his arrival and shot him very very dead … it can’t be more clear than that:)

But if it was so clear, everybody would know where to look for the murderer (circle SM)

And Mafia style?? That would be in the city with the possibility of witnesses. Nope, better kill him ‘mafia style’ in a remote area.

What is the difference between killing SM + friends (collateral) and killing SM + AH (collateral)? … None;) … the nett result is the same … but the remoteness points more to a ‘nutter’ than and mafia styled massacre. And making it look like a ‘nutter’ was EXACTLY the point!

I’m just ‘testing’ my ‘lure’ scenario here. This has nothing to do with any preference I might have. I have no preference;)

3-16-2013 at 13:53:08

Because my ‘preference’ would now be the ‘wigs styled SM murder case’ … SM killed by 3 guys, 2 wearing wigs and ‘aborting’ the plan, but the third going into overdirve and massacre SM and the unfortunate AH’s

In that case the AH’s are truly innocent, BM is a hero, SM was the target and the motive is connected with SM’s life (possibly sex related or whatever)

— Max

3-16-2013 at 14:11:07

If the intention had been to “mask” the murder of SM, the simplest thing would have been to wait until the start of the hunting season and shoot him dead with a single bullet from a high-powered hunting rifle. That would have been written off as one of those tragic hunting accidents that happen from time to time.

Regarding the “lure” scenario, I *can* imagine WBM noticing, or pretending to notice, the AH’s UK number plates while they are in Droussard, him having a friendly little chat with them and pointing them towards the Martinet lay-by as a local beauty spot. They would have listened to a fellow Brit who knew the area well, wouldn’t they? And, given the outcome, he *might* have been more than a little reticent about mentioning the fact that he himself had directed them there.

3-16-2013 at 14:13:29

@Marilyn re ‘Anyway, if you have all run out of ideas, I can close this discussion for good’

That is not a good idea. What you (as moderator) should do is put the discussion ‘on hold’ with a official ‘last post’ from you in which you state that

‘the discussion is on currently on hold. It will be reopened may, 1st, 2013 (or sooner if important new facts come up).’

In this case, we know this discussion is still the ‘meeting place’, but we can all have a break, and you have a break in your ‘moderator’ task.

I have also run out of fresh idea’s. There is a lot rehashing, but I have to say that the past ‘personal 2 months break’ gave me new energy and surprising new insights … it is quite simple really, Imho we just need a serious break of at least a couple of weeks.

— Max

3-16-2013 at 14:54:49


re: upsetting someone

Lynda, you did not upset anyone.Don’t worry.

3-16-2013 at 15:00:58


re: Max’s suggestion of closing comments for a while.

Yes,I think we all need a break from reading in.

So, I will now close comments until April 1. I hope this will suit you all. On April’s Fool Day I will be back and maybe if I say ‘hi folks, we have Killer X’s name’ it won’t be an April Fools joke.

See you all then. Let us think about Chevaline (and I’m not talking of horse meat!) and we can come back all fresh and full of lots of comments.

3-22-2013 at 21:18:28

I’ve been receiving emails from readers of this blog and the comments and they want to know why they can’t comment. So, I’ve opened comments again.

So if you have something to say … go ahead.

3-23-2013 at 13:20:04

Appearenly a man was questioned about a gun which might have been used in the killing. In the end it seemed that the guy had nothing to do with it (as far as I understand french)

3-23-2013 at 13:32:42

We have joked several times in this blog about the “busy traffic” on Route Forestiere that day.

RiffRaffs suggestion above, that Philippe Didierjean was not only a witness but also somehow involved, together with my own “Brett-Martin scenario”, has made me think more seriously about this heavy road traffic situation again.

There were 11 (!) persons at, or very close to, Le Martinet within 15 minutes that afternoon. To add we also have a 4×4 car in the vicinity. When you think about these figures they are quite remarkable, not to say astonishing. It means that it arrived, in average, 1 person every 1,5 minute (1 minute and 21 seconds to be exact), to a lay-by in the middle of nowhere in the French Alpes. It would perhaps be more fair to regard the al-Hilli family and Philippe Didierjean & friends as two groups, but it is still a lot of arrivals within a very short time.

I am very fond of little hands-on tests. If you have the time and the possibility I propose that you position yourself at a small parking place (for less than 10 cars) in your neighbourhood at 15:30 on a Wednesday, and count the number of people arriving during the next 15 minutes. I did that and my result was zero (0), even though I live in a fairly big city. One should actually repeat the experiment a number of Wednesdays, and my guess is that the average will be about max. 2-3 persons/15 minutes. I don’t think it matters even if you count in the backstreets of Paris (no shops or restaurants), eleven (11) persons is still a big figure. (If somebody asks what you are doing, you can always say that you are performing a criminological experiment 🙂 )

M. Maillaud’s speculations wants us to believe that not only Sylvain Mollier, but also Brett-Martin and Philippe Didierjean and his two girlfriends were innocent passers-by, all arriving within these 15 minutes to this remote place. The probability for that is purely statistically almost zero.

Since I, on the other hand, believe that al-Hilli and his family (5 persons) were innocent passers-by (tourists), it would, for the same reasons, be difficult to reconcile that belief with the assumption that the other 5 were also innocent passers-by (the killer is of course excluded here). So if Sylvain Mollier was the intended victim the scenario must with all probability also involve at least some of the others, Brett-Martin and/or Philippe Didierjean et al.

My interest has therefore turned towards the purser Theresa Valerie Martin (to learn more about Mr. Brett-Martin and his background) and the “hiker” Philippe Didierjean.

Philippe Didierjean is an interesting person for several reasons. The Philippes, that I have been able to find, all live very far from Chevaline and Haute-Savoie, and their age seldom match. I find it hard to believe that you travel across France to hike at Chevaline on a Wednesday afternoon in September. I believe that he is a local man. According to the newspapers he wanted to protect his name and said at first that he wanted to be called P. or Philippe, and then he said his name was Philippe Didierjean. Since I can’t find him I think that he changed his name a little to make it unrecognizable to the local community, maybe his name is Jean-Philippe Didier or something, or maybe he borrowed his last name from one of his girlfriends.

Anyhow he is interesting. He is in the same age, forty-something (41) , as Sylvain Mollier, probably local, and he had two girlfriends with him. We have discussed meetings of different types here before, so perhaps there was a planned meeting between Sylvain Mollier and “Philippe Didierjean” & friends, nothing necessarily criminal but just a meeting of some kind.

I first thought that Philippe Didierjean wanted to protect his real name, because his wife didn’t like that he went “hiking” with his girlfriends, but perhaps he had even more “serious” reasons why I didn’t want to get involved, maybe there were people who knew that he and Sylvain Mollier were friends, and that it hardly was a coincidence that they both were at Le Martinet that afternoon.

So perhaps there were two groups of people meeeting at Le Martinet that fatal afternoon, unknowingly of each other. Together with the al-Hilli family (as a group) that would explain the number of people present.

One group with the intention to kill Sylvain Mollier.

The other group(s) with less sinister intentions.

3-23-2013 at 13:33:16

We have seven (7) “objects” at the crime scene, a small place and a short time (15 minutes):

1. Sylvain Mollier
2. al-Hilli family
3. Brett-Martin
4. Philippe Didierjean & 2 women
5. killer + Luger P09
6. MC + driver
7. 4×4 car

These “objects” have to be connected. Not all must necessarily be connected, but it is reasonable to believe that at least a majority of them must be connected somehow. Coincidences are not that frequent.

I have above proposed a possible grouping of these “objects”:

2. al-Hilli family

1. Sylvain Mollier
4. Philippe Didierjean & 2 women

3. Brett-Martin
5. killer + Luger P09
6. MC + driver

7. 4×4 car

There is of course then also a connection between the third group and Sylvain Mollier, since he was the victim.

3-23-2013 at 13:34:26

I have made a little simple tool in OpenOffice Draw (should be useable also in Microsoft) that I would like to share with you, if anybody is interested. (If just somebody could tell me how I can “publish” an OpenOffice-file). I can’t remember if someone has “published” something similar before.

It is just a simple diagram over Route Forestiere that day, with arrows to indicate the comings and goings of the people involved. I have used centimeters to scale it.

Even though it is very simple, you can play around with it, by dragging the arrows across the diagram to see what happens if you assume that a person started his/her movements along Route Forestiere at different times.

You can also change the speed of a “person” by just changing one endpoint of that persons arrow.

You can with this little tool e.g. easily see that Brett-Martin’s idea about a half an hour ride along Route Forestiere is out of the question (as I think Max has also already shown). He would then, not only be overtaken by Sylvain Mollier, but also by the al-Hilli family and could not have met the MC and the 4×4 car (if we assume that the rest of his testimony is correct, and the statements about the 4×4-guys are correct).

I find it quite useful to test different hypothesises with this little tool.

3-23-2013 at 14:17:34


‘We have joked several times in this blog about the “busy traffic” on Route Forestiere that day.’

On the other hand, this could be just ‘normal everyday traffic’. We think it was ‘busy’ … but was it out of normal proportions?

Suppose it was ‘normal’, then we have a credit point for ‘Mr Nutter’ … Mr Nutter just waiting for the first (batch of) ‘normal traffic’ to arrive at Martinet, and Mr Nutter just simply emptying his gun + 3 mags into those ppl. Indeed, in that case It could also have been BM or PD+partners who could have been victims.

— Max

3-23-2013 at 14:44:01

Hello …

@lars, I would love to see your drawing. All I can think of is if you email it to me to my orange email address which you know. I will then put it on the blog on my website. It may work that way.

3-23-2013 at 14:46:05

I plan to write something about how long this can can remain open etc, but won’t be able to do so for some days yet. Busy ………

3-23-2013 at 14:51:33


There is where my little criminological experiment comes in: I think it is pretty easy to show that for a normal lay-by this is a very remarkable figure, eleven persons/15min.

Then you can argue that perhaps Le Martinet is a very unusual and highly frequented place. Perhaps, but hardly likely, and statistically very unprobable.

PS: I think I will recommend you as our Chevaline photographer if our producer Alexander agrees. I think we will have no problem to outdo that superficial french documentary.

3-23-2013 at 14:53:38


OK, I will send it to you A.S.A.P

3-23-2013 at 17:43:43

@Lars – emailed you Lars.

3-23-2013 at 17:44:51


I think our producer Alexander has given up waiting for ‘shooting’ to start and has gone elsewhere.

3-23-2013 at 18:22:21


An answer is on its way.

3-24-2013 at 12:39:46

Thanks to Lynda there is news for us about the case

Mail on Sunday


The JDD was in last Sunday’s Journal du Dimanche paper (17 March)

3-24-2013 at 13:13:08

English tabloid’s warmed-up left-overs from the news published by Max above (3-23-2013 at 13:20:04) 🙂

3-24-2013 at 13:42:40

Lars, this is where the French say ooh-la-la. Indeed, the Mail on Sunday rehashed old news. They must be desperate. As for me, having had just one eye on the blog, it did not focus that this was Max’s exclusive.
Thanks for this Lars.

3-24-2013 at 20:36:25

Hello World !

I come back, with the permission of MZT.
I have happy, If “happy” can be to use in this case.

New info of CM (Ferret)

Apparently, EM shows that work, to deserve her paycheck.

3-24-2013 at 21:01:27

During this break, I think alot of the role of EM.
There are several newspaper article which speaks of “beast of Haute Savoie.” They say that there are links between mafia justice and local power.
In this case, the “wall of silence” that exists around this case takes its value.

If EM is not a good persone, he is dangerous. Because it hides the truth, he is complicit.

It is dangerous for me and for you.

But, I also know that there is in his circle, serious investigators, who will, in time, put an end to his activities.

3-24-2013 at 21:12:14


Thank you for the Telegraph link.

I think the investigators are on to something now. I think they’ve traced the firearm to its original owner and they know who he has sold the gun to. If he had sold it to a gun shop, then the shop’s owner will have a record of who he had sold that gun to. Maybe there will be an arrest soon.

3-24-2013 at 22:18:55

I’m back for Discussion, too. 🙂
Could so pls. Send me Lars tool?!
Thanks a Lot.

3-24-2013 at 23:01:06


“I think the investigators are on to something now. I think they’ve traced the firearm tour Comments …”

I hope to be a way to prove who is the killer.

3-25-2013 at 00:50:02


“There are several newspaper article which speaks of “beast of Haute Savoie.” They say that there are links between mafia justice and local power.
In this case, the “wall of silence” that exists around this case takes its value.

If EM is not a good persone, he is dangerous. Because it hides the truth, he is complicit.”

I think I’ve posted this before, someone who REALLY doesn’t like EM !

3-25-2013 at 06:56:56

Lars 3-23-2013 at 14:51:33
“@Max: There is where my little criminological experiment comes in: I think it is pretty easy to show that for a normal lay-by this is a very remarkable figure, eleven persons/15min.”

There must not ordinarily have been much vehicle traffic at that time of that day of the week or Laurent the builder would not block the road.

There’s also remarkably little trash either in the turn-out or across the road or in the bushes at Martinet, and no trash can either, also no graffiti, which says this is not a heavily used place. Either that or both French residents and tourists are unusually diligent in not littering and not tagging.

In many countries there would be discarded bottles, cans, cups, candy wrappers, bags, food boxes, discarded diapers, and if, as some stories said, it was used as romantic place and for drug dealing (and using?) at night, there should be syringes, blackened spoons, used condoms, etc., yet close up pics show none of the above, just a few cigarette butts.

PD said they intended to go for an overnight hike, presumably parking at Martinet. In France could you leave a vehicle in such an isolated place overnight and not return to find it vandalized?

3-25-2013 at 08:37:52

Morning All.


Yes, you did share that with us before. Very interesting. Thanks for posting it again.

@Lars & @RiffRaff

Lars, I’ve forwarded your ‘tool’ to RiffRaff too. I’m confident we will find a way to open it and then to share it here because it looks very interesting.

@Bacchus & All

I just have a feeling that knowing the origin of the gun will lead to the killer. I even think that the investigators are on to him already but can’t say so in case he makes a runner.

What I mean by that is that they know where he is (country, region, if not the place – endroit – itself) and do not want him to move from there.

3-25-2013 at 10:08:05

@ our weapon experts

is anybody following our discussion who has knowledge of the available bullet lengths and their usage today? Because something that was new – at least to me – in the Telegraph article by Bacchus was the last sentence

“its ammunition, which is 21mm long, is now extremely rare and used with very few other weapons. ”

If this is a seldomly used length of the ammo (21mm) and other ammo lengths are also available a usually used, this indeed could give a hint to X.

3-25-2013 at 11:52:04

@RVA524 – our weapons expert, can you comeback please ?

3-25-2013 at 12:35:32

@RiffRaff & @Lynda

Yes, RVA524 do return please.

3-25-2013 at 12:49:56


emailed you about something which has nothing to do with blog so I feel I can not mention it here.

3-25-2013 at 14:23:14

@ RVA524 & all

I did a bit of browsing on the web regarding the Luger again. First I was after some evidence that the ammo 7.65×21 is kind of unpopular today. It seems like this is the case compared with the later 9mm caliber but it is far from seldom. One can buy substantial quantities from different suppliers in Europe and the US. However the US resources I found do not ship ammo outside the US since some laws seem to prevent this, but the other ressources would certainly do.

What I came across is this video showing a comparison of a Luger and Walther P38

What I found stunning is the precision of the Luger. Way less moving of the gun compared to the P38 or a Colt .45, that I checked as a more modern reference weapon. That brings me to the idea, that this could be another hint that the assisination was planned and that the shooter maybe originally planned to do the job from the distance => presicion gun needed for that. Hence only the unplanned appearance of SAH + family made him come closer and finish them all off.

But why would somebody do that from the distance? Because maybe he knew that the place was ideal in terms of guiding his target in a perfect shooting position, but was also sometimes a bit crowded, meaning many people passing this narrow point.

3-25-2013 at 14:40:45

@RiffRaff et al.

“That brings me to the idea, that this could be another hint that the assisination was planned and that the shooter maybe originally planned to do the job from the distance”

I think you are quite right. That was probably the idea.

Regarding ammo:
I am definitely no ammo-expert (Peter could probably also help us there, if he is not on Easter-holiday already), but I have read these Internet sites for ammo-nerds and listened to a couple of ammo-experts, and as I understand it, has the police made their homework properly, they know pretty well by now, when and where the ammunition was produced (if it wasn´t “home-made” of course).

These ammo-nerds can obviously see the difference between ammunition even from different batches from the same producer. Since the producer changed his production process marginally this or that year.

I find it incredible that there are persons knowing these kind of things.

3-25-2013 at 15:14:06

@Lars and @All

I’ve contacted RVA524 so let us hope he responds.

I know just about zero-minus about firearms. I wouldn’t know the difference between a Luger and a child’s water pistol.

3-25-2013 at 15:14:39


Thanks for the video. Interesting watching it.

3-25-2013 at 16:45:03

@NR, rubbish or lack of it.

Anything that had been there will have been collected by the police and bagged for checking, although that would be a mammoth task !

This is why I have always thought the ‘no DNA’ statement was a bit wide sweeping, no doubt what was really meant was no DNA on the bullet casings or the piece of broken gun, apart from Zainabs (I suppose).

I live in an area which has many ONF woods and protected spaces, never seen a bin, signs ask that nature is respected and take your litter home, no BBQ’s, lighting of fires etc. A sign often shows the route that can be taken and by what transport if any, and then the Flora and Fauna to look out for.

Not much space for grafitti artists ! Although in Chevaline the old saw mill opposite the sign before the climb to Martinet is covered in it.

I must look at a map again – would the road where the builders were working be classed as the back road and Route du Moulin the most direct from the main road ?

3-25-2013 at 16:50:36
3-25-2013 at 17:03:48

What I find odd is that they kept him in prison for several weeks. This tells me it was his gun which had been used and they had to verify whatever he claimed before they could release him. Maybe he has a criminal record which made him all the more possible as Killer X.

3-25-2013 at 17:42:26

@Lynda & Lars
Thanks for the link. It leverages Lars information on the ammo
“L’enquête se poursuit donc sur l’origine de la vingtaine de douilles retrouvées sur la scène de meurtre et l’identification du lot de fabrication de ces munitions très particulières.”

The fabrication lot is the key. They are searching for somebody who bought ammo out of this special fabrication lot, which they seem to have identified and now follow the way the ammo took to customers.

3-25-2013 at 17:44:06

BTW: one should think that they could have done this in September 2012, strange, isn´t it?!

3-25-2013 at 18:58:36


Route du Moulin can hardly be classified as a main road, it is like a narrow alley winding between old derelict houses.
I have always thought that if there was a person in those houses (the old mill?) that day they could hardly have missed a passer-by since the road almost runs through the houses.

3-25-2013 at 19:15:30

@Marilyn, agree with you, there must have been some real concerns for this person to be in custody for so long.

If as you believe he was the original owner of the gun, linked to Lars’ and RiffRaffs ideas that it was meant to be fired from a certain distance, surely it can only point to the target being someone expected to be in the open air, this of course could be one or a number of people, although one or two makes more sense.

Going into reverse a little, the ONF say they indicated to a motorbiker to get back onto the authorised route above Martinet. The stretch of road that zigzags above Martinet appears to be tarmac, could Mollier have been planning to ride up the zigzag, certainly would be ideal for his style of cycling ? The original plan of the killer being to ambush him higher up away from the parking, this went awry when the ONF appeared, he left by the zigzag, when out of sight of ONF hid himself and motorbike, beyond the ‘barrier’ which may well have been placed to the side by ONF earlier, ONF passed by and went downhill, this may or may not be the 4×4 seen by BM.

The al-Hillis arrive, pull up two of them get out at the same time, Mollier arrives on the scene, killer so angry runs towards him shooting, hits Saad and Zainab as they try to get into the car, and the rest we know.

Why so many magazines were being carried – because he could, maybe intended to make SM very dead indeed, which of course he did anyway, never expected to wipe out an entire family, Zainab was left for dead and he didn’t know there was another child in the car.

If the Al-Hillis were the target, why didn’t the killer turn off the engine, open the doors and take something ?

This of course assumes that Motorbiker is the killer, whilst the person has not come forward to be eliminated, I’m still not convinced.

I picked up an old blog from somewhere stating that Al-Hillis arrived at the campsite with one bike on the roof.

3-25-2013 at 20:24:09

“Why so many magazines were being carried…”

More thoughts about ammunition:

I know that Peter among others has been “troubled” by the amount of ammunition carried by the shooter. (since I know so little about weapons in general and shooters in particular I tend to overlook this aspect of the crime)

I could though propose a “new” angle on this question:

Maybe the killer was very well aware that killing was not exactly his kind of business and also aware of the layout of Martinet.

I have written somewhere above that if you stand at Martinet you can see the road for about 100 meters towards Chevaline and about 25 meters towards the mountains.

That is a very vulnerable position. It means that even if you see only your victim in front of you when you start shooting, and a car comes up the road at the same time, it will literally only take seconds from the moment you see the car until it is on the scene (even for Usain Bolt it will only take about 8 seconds). That hardly even leaves any room for running back to your MC and disappear.

So if the killer was aware of this and thought, well if the worst thing will happen I will shoot my way out of there, that could perhaps explain the amount of ammo, and also his readiness to wipe out a family in the process.

(These thoughts were also in my mind when I proposed Brett-Martin as an accomplice, who’s duty it was to see that noone was approaching from Chevaline)

3-25-2013 at 21:33:08

@Lars, so you remain in the train of thought that this is local and although ‘professional’ as in someone who could handle a gun not a Professional assassination ?

3-25-2013 at 21:42:41


Yes, that has been my view on this case since about a week after the crime.

Then of course, with the help of input, from many sources, I have “polished” and developed my ideas.

Since at least December I also have a clear picture who I believe lies behind all this, and I have seen no reason to change my theory since then.

3-25-2013 at 22:12:44

@Lars, you have answered a question I was about to put to you, I believe it was driven by envy, not jealousy, with a dash of disappointment.

3-25-2013 at 22:19:04

re: amount of ammo

Somewhere I’d read, and mentioned it here, that the killer knew that he would have to kill several people. In other words all of the Al-Hillis – father, mother and two daughters. The presence of the mother-in-law and then also Sylvain Mollier was therefore a surprise. This means that the Al-Hillis were the original targets: someone wanted to, or had to, wipe out that branch of the family. When I wrote about that at the time, I said that I have once again changed my mind: I’d decided that the Al-Hillis were the targets.

3-26-2013 at 00:07:11

Interesting development. That suisse guy and the gun/ammo. Perhaps they are onto something, but otoh the casings is all they have got so naturally the investigators work on that:)

– It was once proposed that ‘3 magazines’ were a ‘out of habit’ sign. Killer X took 3 mags OUT OF HABIT, which could point to ex-police/army or whatever

– Furthermore I have had the following question in the back of my mind for a long time now … WHY didn’t Killer X simply excecuted SM and AH point blank?

AH point blank couldn’t be more easy. Just walk up to AH and ‘Nice weather for a walk’, take your gun and bang, bang, bang! Same for SM.

SM’s body was dragged by the AH BMW, so we don’t know the initial position of SM. Who knows SM KNEW X, and upon seeing X, SM tried to escape, that is why X had to start shooting from a distance (behind the barrier) Once downed, X took care of the AH’s and in the end finished off SM

Shooting from a distance might indicate that SM knew his killer! (because as said, why not simply walk up to SM ‘Hi, mate, nice bike you’ve got there’ and bang, bang, bang)

— Max

3-26-2013 at 08:57:13

I also hold on to ‘X killed target but masked it as nutter case’ as a valid scenario.

Because it so beautifully explains all aspects of this killing:

– SM trapped to Martinet (realizing the trap)
– AH directed there as ‘mask’
– No meeting between the 2 required
– Yet X had to act very quickly because of a very limited timewindow in this delicate setup

From this perspective it also paid off!! Because remember that most investigation resources where directed towards AH!! and off loading any suspicion on SM

Yet there remain subtle details like:
– Why were the AH’s at Martinet
– Why (reason) the smiling pictures
– Why was SM ‘lost’
– Why the weird gun

These subtle points hint to something below the surface. To explain th case which at first glance is bewildering (and has us and the world bewildered for over half a year now)

… true, a ‘weak’ point in this scenario is how on earth X could have prepared the ‘mask’ to work??? The ‘SM trap’ is easy, but the ‘mask’ that is a completely other matter:)

— Max

3-26-2013 at 10:04:15


“Why not point blank:”
I think it might be for the same reason as with the ammo, that he was not a hit man. It takes a lot of nerve to first stop Mollier, look him in the eyes and say “what a nice day for a ride”, and then shoot him. That could perhaps an experienced hit man do, but for someone who just is a good shooter, and perhaps knew Mollier, that is a bit too strong. (even though I could actually mention some counterexamples, but these shooters were mental cases)

The same goes of course for the al-Hilli family. To just walk up to a family sitting peacefully in their car and execute them, takes a lot of guts or lack of mental abilities.

“Body dragged”:
If you look at the pictures from Martinet where you can see the tyre marks, you can see that the car must have been about half-ways out on Route Forestiere before it went back into the lay-by again (the “top” of the semi-circle described by the car’s movements).

I think it is reasonable to believe that the car hit Sylvain Mollier exactly at that point, when the car went out on Route Forestiere. Sylvain Mollier was still standing/kneeling/lying on the road after being hit by the first bullets.

It is interesting to notice that while the picture to the “Le Monde-scenario” depicts Sylvain Mollier’s bicycle lying at the point I just described above, Brett-Martin on the other hand describes his bicycle as lying close to him. Both could make sense, the latter if his feets were still fastened to the pedals.

3-26-2013 at 10:06:37

@ Marilyn
“This means that the Al-Hillis were the original targets: someone wanted to, or had to, wipe out that branch of the family. ”

I disagree with that. If that had been the case, Zainab would have been shot dead before the already heavily wounded SM would get some additional shots. No, the fact that Zainab survived clearly indicates that NOT the whole family could have been the target. Maybe SAH – although I don´t beleve that – and his wife and mother in law, but not the whole family.

3-26-2013 at 10:10:42

reagarding the Magazines: Pls. Remember that this type of gun came with two spare magazines as a shipping standard. So if you have them and you plan something like this, I find it quite natural to load up all magazines that I have and take them with me. Its like hiking: you know that you need 1 liter of water until youll reach a creek to fill up, but being a careful person you bring two liters just in case something happens that makes it impossible for you to reach the creek.
I find the mags pretty plausible.

3-26-2013 at 10:26:33


Think of it this way.

Killer X thought Zainab was dead too. He’d shot her in the shoulder, there was blood all over her, so he thought he’d hit her in the head and like the other Al-Hillis she was dead. Then Sylvain Mollier rides up and he has to kill him too. Sylvain Mollier might not have been a ‘sitting’ target, but was moving about, shouting, waving his arms and so on, so he needed to fire at him several times. And alas, then Zainab stirs, cries out and gets up and he — has no ammo left to give her the deadly bullet in the head, so he beats her down and breaks his gun. Probably, when he raced off on his motorcycle he thought she was dead too.

3-26-2013 at 10:42:39

C’mon Marilyn, you can do better:)

SM was already there! How else could he have been dragged by the BMW making a U-turn;)

3-26-2013 at 12:00:57

Max, we do not know that he was dragged by the BMW. Another theory was that the killer had tried to pull the body behind some trees.

3-26-2013 at 12:23:36

@ Marilyn re: pulling behind the trees

hmm, but why should he do that? I mean in a crime scene like this the body would have been found anyway.

3-26-2013 at 13:13:34


I am just speculating. To gain time to get away for example. Maybe Sylvain Mollier’s body lay in the road, and Killer X thought that cars and other passing vehicles might not take notice of a car parked in the lay-by but a body lying out on the road, would attract instant attention.

About the BMW having pulled Sylvain Mollier’body: was Mollier’s DNA found on the car? If the car had dragged his body there would have been blood, maybe even skin or flesh, on the car.

Gosh, but I am being gruesome!

3-26-2013 at 13:16:15

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

Hilli Joins B(?) In Arnand
X First Goes There
Target Of X Mollier First
Then English Unrelated Persons Get Shot After Unsuccesfull U-turn
Used Vintage Luger Of Swiss
Before X Leaves Lay-by

Question is, who is B?
First I though B=Brett
But B could stand for Brother … who’s brother??

MZT reversed is TZM = Twilight Zone Murders;)

(toying with letters is fun, but above is given by a pure random internet oracle so, yup, I take that more serious;)

3-26-2013 at 13:19:07

Max, I love it when you play with words.

TZM – Twilight Zone Murder. I like that. Goes well with what I do: always writing about murder.

3-26-2013 at 14:03:55

@all Shooting speed

I found the test protocol from the swiss commission that decided for the Luger P08 as a weapon for the swiss army.

“Shooting speeds – The Borchardt-Luger (executed by Mr Luger) fired 48 shots in 28 seconds (or 103 shots per minute), without any problem in any mechanism, the extraction of cases being steady. ”

That means our case with 25 bullets could be easily done by an experienced shooter without any problems with reloading. Mr. Luger himself had to reload 5 times (apprx. every 12 seconds) to archieve his firing speed.
These were donewith the early 7.65×21 model not with the later 9×19 models. Did you all know that there was a gazillion variety of models around in 9×19 but only few models in 7,65×21?

P.S. I never thought that something like guns could trigger my interest. Must be something primal … 😉

3-26-2013 at 14:06:29

hjbi axfg ttox mfte upgs auuu vlos bxll

Hilli Joins Bikers In Arnand
X Follows Group There
Target Of X Mollier First
Then English Unrelated Persons Get Shot After Unsuccesfull U-turn
Used Vintage Luger Of Swiss
Before X Leaves Lay-by

I’d say … wow:)

Hilli Joins Bikers In Arnand (the start/sync)
X Follows Group There (the parallel road)
Target Of X Mollier First (the attack, from behind the barrier)
Then English Unrelated Persons Get Shot After Unsuccesfull U-turn (the bad luck)
Used Vintage Luger Of Swiss (the gun)
Before X Leaves Lay-by (the escape)

… Ok, it is vague enough to not spill the why. The oracle lets us do the work;)

3-26-2013 at 14:11:52

But I will cut down on the ‘Oracle stuff’ for now:)

3-26-2013 at 14:49:36

Correction: Its only around 5 seconds. He did 48 shots and 5 reloads in 28 secs.

3-26-2013 at 15:32:45


Thanks for the shooting speed info!
I had never believed it if I hadn’t read it myself. Say 25 shots and 3 reloads in 15 seconds by an experienced shooter! That’s incredible.

3-26-2013 at 15:54:12


I echo Lars, thanks for the info.

3-26-2013 at 17:10:38

Had to pass by the forest today, stopped to look at the barrier, something like the one here, two uprights with eyeholes and a piece of wood passed through the two. In one photo of Martinet you can see two uprights and a piece of wood lying on the verge to the right. If the barrier was in place, both the AH’s and SM would have had to stop, the latter could have lifted his bike over had he been planning to continue the route.

I think it was stated that the BMW picked up Mollier and dragged him, must have been the outer side on the reverse turn (drivers side). With regard to the bike, I’ve always wondered if this expensive item was picked up and thrown by the killer ………

3-26-2013 at 19:48:46


Your vision how Mollier was dragged is in agreement with my description above.

I think that this also influenced the escape of the al-Hilli family.

I think we all can imagine how it would feel if we try to escape from a killer and in the process run over another person with our car. Since, as you say, Mollier was hit by the car on the driver’s side, Mr al-Hilli was of course well aware of the fact that the car had hit Mollier.

That could very well have prevented al-Hilli to choose the better alternative, Route Forestiere and the even smaller “lay-by” just before Le Martinet. If Mollier was then dragged along by the car it was of course not unnoticed by Mr. al-Hilli. If he then ended up lying almost in front of the car (according to Le Monde) it meant that Mr. al-Hilli had to run him over a second time to escape. Not an easy thing to do even if you are desperate and “running” for your life.

I still remember the recommendations I received when learning to drive. If you see a small animal just in front of your car, you never brake, you just run it over. The risk that you will otherwise create an accident is too big. Faint-hearted as I am, I am glad that this situation has never occured. And to deliberately run over a human being, even if running for your life, uggh!

3-26-2013 at 21:37:07

I just realized another easily overlooked thing (overlooked by perhaps everybody)

Why didn’t AH ‘surrender’? (Arms in the air towards the gun toting man)

It is sure AH tried to escape … but (and I take Lars’ ‘imagine’ quote from his last post) I could imagine somebody in that situation try to ‘surrender’

Was ‘surrender’ not an option for AH? And if not, why?

— Max

3-26-2013 at 22:05:12

@Max SAH surrender

I think SAH was the type of guy (especially with a southern iraqui hot blooded DNA) who fought so hard for everything he archieved in his life that when attacked, he simply didn´t consider surrender as an option. And to be honest I understand that. Its a different thing if you get threatened and have the choice to surrender (and maybe survive) or fight (and maybe survive) OR if you – and a bystander (SM) – are attacked out of the clean air for no appearent reason and you instantly choose to run for your life and that of your daughter while you realize that you can´t protect her efficiently.

3-26-2013 at 22:18:12


‘are attacked out of the clean air for no appearent reason’ … This sounds as if you assume it was a ‘nutter’

But maybe AH knew there was trouble because he did regonize the guy and/or maybe AH realized he was ‘trapped’

There is ‘something’ in the shooting sequence which holds a key, I’m pretty sure of this.

The AH and Z were outside, but the ladies were inside still (probably) strapped. Now X didn’t strike directly … this is already weird. But then SM shows up (my assumption of sequence) and X starts shooting SM from a distance and ONLY THEN attacks the AH’s who on top of that nearly escape.

This points to X doing:

1. Wait for SM
2. SM first
3. AH second

And not:

4. Attack anyone (nutter)

Or also not:

5. Attack AH’s
6. Attack SM

The sequence imho is definitely 1. 2. 3. The big question is … WHY 3? why the AH’s too, after SM? (because for AH X could have proceed with 4 or 5/6)

3-26-2013 at 22:40:02

@Lars, without going back through BM statement, didn’t he say he moved SM away from the front wheel of the car to get to the window, to push it in and turn off the ignition ?

I have read many comments about why use your hand to do this and not elbow, because it was early September, BM was undoubtedly wearing a short sleeved polo shirt, very popular with men of a certain age. His fingerless cycling gloves would have offered a level of protection, we have also seen a photo of him with a blue plaster on one hand when he returned to France for further questioning.

I’m beginning to warm to BM again.

3-26-2013 at 22:40:14

@Max Re: Shooting sequence

No, I am convinced that X is not a nutter and that he was after SM. In my mind the scenery was something like we talked about before. X got hold up and arrives “late” at his favourite spot for killing SM. SM arrives and X immediately starts to shoot from the distance, then realising that there are other people (the SAH´s) around. what a pity. He has to eliminate them to secure himself (hence non-professional, not a contract killer, but gun-trained, local guy), no wittnesses shall survie,

3-26-2013 at 23:02:11


Yup, that is/was a view I also held … but it questions what AH was doing there, and the only possible answer in that scenario is that AH’s were simply tourists! Which goes well with the 1515 pictures btw.

But this puts EM’s ‘99% it was not about SM’ is a very strange light

Because everything points to SM being the (only) target … and even ‘worse’, it would be a fairly straightforward case because the SM killing was easy because SM was ‘trapped/lured/ into Martinet with X planning the ambush there.

Why would a simply SM killing take dozens of investigators all over the world … this can only be because the killer really left no clue whatsoever and the SM inside circle dont give away any clues either. That OR the investigators themselves are ‘implicated’.

Which brings us back to the very weird point of EM stating in the first few hours/days that the ‘answer is to be found in the UK’

… and BM is a ‘hero’, btw, I found that very weird too … to proclaim that the guy who was at the scene with blood on his hands was to be a ‘hero’ within a day … how could EM be sure of this within only 1 day??

3-26-2013 at 23:06:46

… because, let’s face it, ‘they’ are capable of holding a man for weeks because of some gun, and in the end let him go … while BM, with hand covered in blood and moving stuff and bodies around at the scene, just walks away as a ‘hero’??

(I have nothing against BM, but this surely is weird … If I was BM I would have found it normal to be questioned thoroughly to proof beyond doubt I wasn’t X)

3-26-2013 at 23:27:24

In relation to the Swiss suspect, imagine that is a man with mentals disorders. He contacte the police and confesse the crime. As he can read the newspapers, he knows well the wholes facts of this case. There are people like that, we have seen many mentally ill in Switzerland recently
Swiss police checked the informations of suspect during several weeks (?!). because the suspect confessed the crime.

Meanwhile, EM discovers another suspect and arrested!.

Perhaps the EM’s suspect speaks.

EM informs his police’s colleagues in Switzerland and they release the swiss suspect.

According to this teorie, the truly suspect is already under lock and in a lot of weeks (?!), we will know more.

PS: as the text is very long, the translation is difficult. There are probably alot of errors.

3-26-2013 at 23:30:45

@RiffRaff & Max

I agree with RiffRaff, the shooter was late, or anyhow just arriving.


I think there are two version of this.

As I remember it now, Brett-Martin says that he moved Mollier’s body to the side because he was afraid that Mollier would get run over by the car “in case it jumped forward”, he then turned of the ignition.

The whole sequence is crazy.

First, if you are afraid that the car will “jump forward” would you then not turn of the engine first (!), and then see if you need to attend to the body? Not the other way around.

Secondly the engine were spinning the wheels in the other direction (!) how can you then believe that the car will “jump forward”, will the car change gear by itself?

Brett-Martin also explicitly explains that he had his gloves on when he turned the ignition off. Totally superfluous information if you don’t feel you have to explain why your fingerprints were not on the ignition key.

Then there are the second version, I can’t remember the source right now, but it says that Brett-Martin moved the body, so that his head was lying towards the back tyre. Since the girl was lying on the side of the car facing the lay-by I hardly believe he dragged Mollier’s body all the way around her (especially considering the difficulty to move a dead body of a fullgrown man). That leaves the driver’s side of the car as the only option. That scenario seems even more stupid than Brett-Martin’s version.

First, the wheels are still spinning, according to Brett-Martin, who would drag a dead body and place its head close to a spinning wheel?

Secondly, if he did so, he had to lean over the body, to break the window and reach for the ignition key. In this version it is even more absurd why you don’t turn of the ignition key first and then move the body (but why then move the body at all ?).

If you ask me, both versions are bogus.

I am glad that you are interested in Brett-Martin, as said my main interest now are Brett-Martin and his wife Theresa Valerie Martin and Philippe Didierjean. If anyone of these can be connected to any of the local people involved I think we have a real break-through.

3-26-2013 at 23:37:36


I agree with you E. Maillaud has said som many very strange things, that even I, who are almost allergic to conspiration theories have been wondering what he is up to.

3-27-2013 at 00:36:15

@Lars, If B can be linked I think B provided the ‘mask’ (gruesome, I know)

3-27-2013 at 03:08:16

Remember that one of the girls, I think the older one, said there was shouting
or an argument before the shooting, and there was one bad man. If that report
is correct, it seems the shooter was close and visible.

3-27-2013 at 09:12:48

Morning. I’ve read in. Thank you for all your very interesting and informative comments while I was serial killing in the streets of Paris.

You discussed why Al-Hilli had not thrown or held his hands up in the air. We do not know that he did not, and was shot all the same.

And NR you are right, Zainab did say that there was a lot of noise and there was one bad man. Therefore: one shooter. I wonder if they’d ask her whether the noise was voices shouting and if so did they shout in English. Or if not in English, could she tell them in what language they shouted.

As for Maillaud having said the reason for the crime is in the UK.

I think he was talking off the top of his head. And remember he was not the one investigating – as I said before a prosecutor prosecutes and he does so on the information he is given by the examining magistrates, in this case there are two, a man and a woman, so when Maillaud said that, he was reacting on what the two gendarme chiefs had told him. At that time the two examining magistrates had not yet been appointed. Also, at that stage the two gendarme chiefs had not yet questioned anyone and the only ‘evidence’ they had on which to jump to conclusions was the fact that all but one of the victims were Iraqi-born. Think Iraq = think trouble = think assassination.

And Bacchus, do not worry about the English. I appreciate, and I am certain so do all our commentators and the readers of this blog, that you are communicating with us in a language which is not your own. Thank you for that!

3-27-2013 at 09:32:10


With all respect, that EM stuff you say is ridiculous! 😉

A ‘specialist’ would never say something like this ‘top of his head’. Because a specialist would instantly see the whole picture, the strange killing, etc.

If I were to have a computer problem (I had one a few days/weeks ago, in the end it was the mobo firmware) I will NEVER say anything a layman would say. I know that every ‘problem’ is unique.

EM with his ‘UK’ and ‘Hero’ quotes acts as a layman, no better than the masses, no better than the neighbour. I expect more from him!

EM threw the SM=Target right out of the window, from the start. That is ridiculous!! (for a specialist that is)

— Max

3-27-2013 at 10:16:42

@Max & Marilyn Re: EM

although I find many things that EM did very strange, to say the least, but I am still convinced that he is NOT a complete bozo. There must be a reason why he said that in that early stage. To my opinion there are only three reasons available why he did:

a) he knew the crime was local and hoped to draw away the attention from the chevaline area, hence facilitating his background work in investigating. Obviously he had to mask the local operations by allocating also lots of manpower to the UK investigations
b) he really thought that this would be an easy case with a family feud and lots of money in switzerland involved. at that time it could seem quite simple. After all it was a bit later that he said that this crime probably will take years and lots of luck to be solved.
c) he knew which organisation/killer X was involved and he knew that he´d never get the political backing and police ressources to get it on with these guys – just because an british Iraqi guy and a local nobody were shot (ironic mode: off).

We should be all very aware of the dark fact that our police forces do not treat every case with the same effort. There must be chance for success or public pressure to get them going. The fact that public interest was very high for a long time and still is surely was something that EM did not expect and did not make him feel comfortable.

3-27-2013 at 15:34:32

I was going to say an ambush, but I see you already have.

An ambush, needs the perpertrator to know the surroundings, I just don’t get that a State (any) sponsored assassination would take place without a reccy of the area. Of course that is possible in the AH case as primary target, as Max has said there would then need to be a lure – this family left their home on the 29th August, never have had confirmation of when they went over or under the Channel, reports at the outset suggested they had gone to the Gironde property first, before going to Annecy. i think they did, so an intelligence agency decided to follow them and get to a spot before them to gun them all down, makes no sense to me.

Where as, SM was a cyclist in Les Bauges, whether this was his planned route or not, if it was the wrong route to what was suggested by his girlfriends father, what was the ‘right’ route ? Has anyone ever said where he was due to be ? No – because he was on the ‘right’ route, which was known by more than one person. Zainab as I recall from reports said there was shouting, so did the tiddler in the car hiding, the latter could have been her father and mother.

EM response was too immediate, Brit plate, Iraqi origin, we’ve covered this before, the last thing he or the TOURIST community want is that some nutter, has gone mad with a gun – and ‘nuuter’ is used with the broader term to include someone who went nuts.

3-27-2013 at 15:58:41


I respect your views, so do respect mine too.

I report crime in this country and I’ve dealt with many prosecutors, examining magistrates etc, so I know what I am speaking about.

A prosecutor is not a super human being, he is just a human being and like all of us he makes mistakes and says things he should not say.

Like you should not have said that what I said about Prosecutor Maillaud is ridiculous.

3-27-2013 at 16:48:44


Hmm, it was not personal. But I do not agree with you ‘just a human being making mistakes’ quote:)

If you go on a plane you dont say ‘Oh well, the pilot is just a human being, he is allowed to make mistakes’ 🙂 Nope, he is a pilot, a SPECIALIST at piloting. That is what he is good at … he seldom will make a mistake at his specialism, and when he makes a ‘mistake’ it is a ‘mistake’ on a high level.

Same for our prosecutor EM, he is a ‘specialist’. So I don’t see him making ‘mistakes’ unless on purpose (one of the the RiffRaff option)

3-27-2013 at 19:01:19


I promise, I will not start nagging on M. Maillaud again. I have said what I think about him above (in the previous threads), anybody can read that.

If will just add one small thing. I meet people like Max 🙂 (computer programmers) in my professional life just like I meet other specialists. As you say Marilyn, we are human beings, and all make mistakes. And I have no problem when e.g. a programmer comes to me after we have found out that something is not working the way it should, and says: “- Sorry, that last piece of code that I added was just complete rubbish.”

I don’t even mind if it happens several times during a project. That’s life, and humans are humans.

What I do mind is when somebody obviously f-k something up, but will not admit it, or even tries to pretend that it never happened.

But then again I have a feeling that French male bureaucrats (not to talk about presidents) are prouder, and less prone to admit mistakes, than French males in general, and these are prouder than males are in general, and these are a lot prouder than people are in general.

3-27-2013 at 20:53:31

“Where as, SM was a cyclist in Les Bauges, whether this was his planned route or not, if it was the wrong route to what was suggested by his girlfriends father, what was the ‘right’ route ? Has anyone ever said where he was due to be ? No…”

A little funny detail, noone from the investigation, said a word about Sylvain Mollier being lost, before it was rumoured that it was his girlfriend’s father, that had suggested the route.

3-27-2013 at 20:54:04

@ Lars Re: EM admitting faults

just to sharpen our common view on EM a bit: IF (and I am not conviced that this is the case), if EM simply made a human, understandable fault by talking on his “gut feelings” too soon, he is in serious trouble hence he can´t admit that he was talking rubbish before. Among the reasons are to my view:
a) It´s not professional! Which is really, really bad for a professional leadership person. Personally and in terms of his career. I´ve never seen a “management guy” easily admitting faults. It´s part of the game not to do that, if you want to continue your career. Deonsn´t matter if the guy is french or german or swedish or whatever.
b) He wasted resources that many of his – presumably jealous – colleagues would have wanted on their cases. Why jealous? Because a big case with major attention can make your the police president – if you solve it with great excellence! By not talking much anymore and not admitting a fault EM keeps his ticket valid to – maybe – someday solve the case and tells the whole world that this was not a slip but a planned action from a police genius which therefore should be appointed as police president.
c) If he admits that he can fail his authority towards his own people and the public would be instantly shattered making his life more difficult and preventing someday case b).

etc. etc.

Get the point?! HE can´t admit faults now – even if he would maybe want to.

3-27-2013 at 21:29:25


I understand what you mean but I can’t fully agree with you.

Of course there a persons (males predominantly) also in Sweden who never admits any mistakes, my late father for example, so I know how problematic it is to live with such a person. And of course there are managers who will never admit mistakes, especially in middle-management. But I can’t see that it is regarded as a good trait in Sweden.

I believe that we have quite a different culture in Sweden, where it is always very important that “everybody” shall agree with decisions taken and so on. I don’t say it is better, but different. I have worked with French engineers (in the aero-space industry) and I have met their managers. I should say that they would have a difficult time to function (or be accepted) as managers in Sweden or they would have to change style completly. France has a long history of elite universities, and people educated there have a certain style and attitude towards other people.

So to conclude: Had M. Maillaud been a swedish prosecutor, and admitted after a time that he had drawn certain conclusions too quickly, I believe that he would have been applauded and regarded as a strong and intelligent prosecutor.

3-27-2013 at 22:14:54

@ Lars: Re Swedish management culture

I fully agree with you that swedish people are different and do a lot of things more “modern” then in other countries. And I appreciate that. However I happen to have a swedish privately owned company as a cooperation partner for a decade with my business and I must say that the differences that I recognize in this particular swedish company are neglectable. There is a saying out there in this company: “Of course we´re democrats and strive for an fully agreeable solution for all – but that doesn´t matter in a kingdom!”. Means for all the others: it all depends on the power you give a person if they are willing to use that power or go with the democratic and agreed flow.

3-27-2013 at 23:09:04


I can hardly argue with you there. Since I work as a consultant I have been around working in many different companies and there are surely differences, but I have found them mainly in companies owned by owners from other countries. I think however that this style is not usually appreciated by the swedish personell.

As said it is a very strong tradition that everybody shall agree, so I think we are more famous for our endless, not always so productive meetings, than for our strong demanding leaders. 🙂

3-28-2013 at 00:19:58

@elena21 on forum France2.

“… So there’s a lot of shadows and Annecy prosecutor said that as the cyclist was not yet married to his new girlfriend, there was no reason to kill him for the inheritance his concubine, but precisely by killing before there is any suspicion on the family, so after the wedding, it would have been obvious finally me what I say, there’s food for thought I think. ”

For me this is a very inteligent comment !

@Pernfors on forum France2.

“… one can imagine the killer came liquidate the cyclist, he returned home terrified to have panicked and committed a massacre. Then resuming his mind in the morning while reading the newspapers and realizing that the murder of the family changes the whole gives directs the investigation to other tracks and actually protects … a real thriller …”

For me, another very inteligent comment.

Maybe this is the answer on the atitude of EM. He know something but can not say yet because it lacks proves.
But 6 months it´s a very long time to arrive at a conclusion.

As it makes alot of time, we have the right to think anything on EM. He is clean (for example) ?

3-28-2013 at 00:31:44

inteligent comment = smart comment.

And when I say “smart comment” I do not mean that yours is not. Let’s clear. My friends.

3-28-2013 at 00:32:55

@Bacchus and all,

Doesn’t matter if the AH collateral were ‘bad luck’ or on purpose (‘mask’ theory) … the idea is the same namely … SM was target!

But I find ‘my’ ‘mask’ theory more elegant. Doesn’t have to be true of course, but ‘elegant’ it certainly is.

The ‘mask’ theory is painting a scene that X want to kill SM but wants to get away with it by ‘masking’ it as a ‘nutter’ case with SM as unlucky collateral.

Just read the top lines (or other thread) refering to XAVIER BALIGANT … and see that in this scenario X succeeds. Nearly every resource and attention is directed at the AH’s and/or ‘nutter’ … The SM side comes in third … just what X wanted:)

(but in this scenario X has to have a lot of guts and a very strong will to kill SM, using so many collaterals … yet, imho there are details which only truly add up if X was doing exactly what I said, ‘masking’ the killing of SM)

3-28-2013 at 00:37:14

I always have to pay attention to the susceptibility of a few.

3-28-2013 at 09:41:55

Useless knowledge:

After our little discussion about managers and management above, it came to my mind that we even have a modern expression in Swedish for somebody, especially politicians and managers in big companies, who admit that they have done something wrong.

We say that they “behave like a poodle” (literally: “make a poodle”).

Poodles are dogs that are usually very eager to please, when you try to tell them off, they tend to lie on their backs and wave with their little legs in the air, to show “ok, I surrender, I made something bad, but you still love me, don’t you?”.

3-28-2013 at 09:49:44

“… So there’s a lot of shadows and Annecy prosecutor said that as the cyclist was not yet married to his new girlfriend, there was no reason to kill him for the inheritance his concubine, but precisely by killing before there is any suspicion on the family, so after the wedding, it would have been obvious finally me what I say, there’s food for thought I think. ”

ah, I think that makes a perfect motive.

3-28-2013 at 09:50:46


In the Anglo-Saxon world we say someone is a poodle or is someone’s poodle when that person does what he/she is told to do. For example: Mrs Thatcher was called Ronald Reagan’s poodle.

Do you know that the French really do have poodles – the animal kind?

3-28-2013 at 13:05:41

A quote from my Dad:

“Decisions are based upon the information you have to hand at the time”.

This from a much “lettered” retired engineer from the energy industry, Max is correct, everyone makes decisions daily of greater or lesser importance and are always right.

Hindsight is another matter.

3-28-2013 at 15:01:05

My ‘phylo’ post has vapourized, still Lynda seems to reference it … lol. I can understand some ‘moderation’, and have no problem with it. It’s Marilyn’s blog so she’s the boss, no doubt about that! (having my own fora, I know the rules;)

— Max

3-28-2013 at 15:57:43

@Lynda et al.

Yeah, but the problem is when people don’t see the need to correct their position even with hindsight.

I guess that is why I dislike two persons so very much in this case (of course the killer too), and that is the before mentioned prosecutor and Mr. Brett-Martin.

Both have said and done some very strange things. There might be reasons for that, that I don’t know, or understand, but they have now had six months to correct themselves and straighten things out, but they have done nothing like that. This is after all not a small academic dispute or something, but a question of life and death for several people. I think that puts a certain responsibility on the persons involved. I can’t see that these two persons have, until now, lived up to that responsibility.

I don’t know why.

3-28-2013 at 16:12:07

Don’t forget the cows. The media one time was caught up in a herd of cows on the road. This works against the idea of a well-planned assassination. Pros would not pick a place that had a chance of having their escape blocked by cows.

Yet somebody mentioned a dinner with a weapons expert who said the shooter was a pro, indicated by no prints on the cartridges. If that report is true.

It points in the direction of a pro, or a person emulating a pro, armed for protection, but not intending murder, who had a meeting with someone at Martinet. Perhaps outraged that the other party was instructed to come alone, and instead other people arrive, or the other party doesn’t have what was agreed upon, and the shooter is outraged.

3-28-2013 at 16:18:46


Margaret Thatcher a poodle !!? I thought she was a Dobermann. 🙂

3-28-2013 at 16:22:15

@Lars Re: poodle

That´s what gave the quote the spice at that time :-). No Dobermann is called a Poodle without having to pay for it (hence the ” I want my money back!” sentence)

3-28-2013 at 17:41:01


I had one of my own posts vanish too today. Gremlins. Can you repost it, please? I’ve only ever deleted posts when it was about zombies and others from the troll.

@Lars and @RiffRaff

Mrs Thatcher will go down as the woman who broke the miners’ strike. English bulldog more likely. But at the time the tabloids were hinting that she was in love with Ronald Reagan. President Mitterrand once said that she had Marilyn Monroe lips. Oh well. Takes a Frenchman.


A French weapons expert also said on one of the French TV documentaries that the no fingerprints (DNA) on the ammo pointed to an expert. But you may agree with me that there are always so many experts in every case.

3-28-2013 at 20:23:01


I can’t repost. It was an improvised ‘phylo’ post;)

Anyway it was about ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ … I dont believe in this. They do not exist. To make it more clear, if X gets away with killing SM, from his perspective he did ‘right’ (as ‘according to plan’) … but other ppl would argue X is ‘wrong’. Simple to see that those two will never ever match. Why? Because there exists no ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.

Perhaps the ‘Gremlins’ will eat this one too? 🙂

— Max (doing copy/paste into notepad;)

3-28-2013 at 21:43:02


L’ Express article closes with statement
“Aujourd’hui, les enquêteurs n’ont que deux certitudes: la tuerie de Chevaline n’est pas liée à celle commise dans le Valais et le cycliste Sylvain Mollier était une victime collatérale.”

How can they be so sure… its disgusting.

3-28-2013 at 21:52:20


Will we ever know? Right now France is focused on the Merah case, and the Sarkozy case, and the ‘marriage-for-all’ case.


We can also say that one man’s right is another man’s wrong.

Maybe the Gremlins are eating their Easter eggs.

3-28-2013 at 22:05:24

@ Marilyn

here´s another strange statement
“The only thing we know for sure is that Sylvain wasn’t up to anything strange,” said his aunt, Mrs Ginolin. “But I don’t think we’ll ever know what really happened.”

If you do not have facts, how can you be “sure” of one thing and “(n)ever know what happened”? It does not make sense. Why is the aunt (an aunt!!!) the only person speaking out freely. Even a cousin does not want his name to be stated. No direct comments whatsoever. I say: it stinks!

3-28-2013 at 22:11:36


As long as no journalist challenges them for answers that make sense, there will be no answers.

3-28-2013 at 22:16:14

@Riff Raff, they cannot be sure, until they find the suspect put him/her on trial and a guilty verdict is pronounced. Such a statement is an appeasement to the community and family, who may have no involovement and need to return to daily life.

A Pharmacy needs a resident Pharmacist, a self-employed hairdresser a ‘stylist’, a Gite needs to earn its money from rentals (bet BM is swamped by demands to rent his second home), every cloud has a silver lining.

So, I’m planning my vacation, stay at Silver Fern Holiday rentals place in Lathuile, get my hair done chez Lydie in Ugine, go to Schutz-Morange Pharmacy for ALL my medical needs and finally ask PD to spend a night with me on the mountain, leaving my 4×4 at Martinet before the wooden barrier, of course.

Have I missed something ?

Indeed I have, target practice with an old Swiss Luger, with 21mm x 7.65 parabellum fired at moving targets.

And it’s all to be kept a secret …… bloody cold with my left breast laid bare and the right trouser leg rolled up to reveal an unshodden foot !

Pity I couldn’t see any of it for the hood over my head.

A jest my friends, but ‘Omertas’ do exist and not always in the most obvious of places.

3-28-2013 at 22:47:03

@MArilyn, Lynda, Max. Lars
I have potentially a new lead, I need to do some research about it, but here´s my idea:
variation a) It was part of a chasseurs alpins initiation ritual: to be part of the community of Chasseurs Alpins (CA) your buddies need to know something that can get you to jail if made public. Since everybody of them has such a “secret” they can rely on each other. Hence, an CA apprentice could indeed act like a nutter in killing everything he can reach, no motive for us to see, but there is one in his community. That would then also well explain the wall of silence and the “sureness” on SM´s non-involvement and the certainty that the case will never be solved, and the get away of X with the ONF people.
Variation b) is variation a) with a litte Schutz-Morange spin. So if there was the motive of preventing a marriage, what would be more “elegant” to take Max’ words then combining such a test of courage with a nice collateral and no traceable routes to the family. All of them having perfect alibis.

Of course I am just speculating, but a nice idea …

3-28-2013 at 23:54:04

Let’s take the following angle:

Suppose it was all about SM (which I think is the case)

Now, just remove AH from the scene (as some ppl think they were just collateral). So, REMOVE AH’s … what the is left?

What is left is: SM bikes to Martinet. X kills him there

Ehhhhh, wouldn’t it be bloody obvious it was all about SM and wouldn’t it be obvious to look for X in ‘circle SM’???

Simply by this simple scene alone you HAVE TO CONCLUDE that IF it is about SM, then X has to organize some stuff to take a way the attention.

That is where the ‘collaterals’ and ‘nutter’ come in. Any collateral will do as long as it looks like a ‘nutter’ case.

Now, my big question is, how did X ‘organize’ the collaterals (AH)?

I would very much like to hear from Zainab WHY the AH’s went up there to Martinet? A long time ago I thought AH’s might have gone up to Martinet because Zainab had to pee … but this will not do for the X/Mask scenario. However, if there is but a slight hint the AH’s were send/directed there, then it would give much credit to the ‘mask’ theory.

3-29-2013 at 01:29:58

We have already said everything, for me all scenarios have been revised, now we have only to wait.
How long?
I don´t know. Few weeks, few months or perhaps years.
This is sad.
I had to hope to help find the truth, but the truth does not appear in light. Without light, we will continue in the dark.
Who can enlighten our vision? God and / or EM. (SGFUYN).

3-29-2013 at 01:43:06

It’s sad for the girls of SAH.

3-29-2013 at 01:51:53

Where is the LIGHT ?
Come HERE !

3-29-2013 at 02:01:39

Please, come here !

3-29-2013 at 06:53:54

As I read the EM statement, he says for 99.9% certainty there is no link between SM and SAH. Not with 99.9% certainty SM was not the intended target, although EM does indicate SM as a collateral death. No, not part of a chasseurs alpins initiation ritual (dead bodies all over the Savoye) but definitely a link to the qualities needed for the Martinet killings.

Agree on likely scenario where all loose ends come together.

I have even suggested the name of a local Jean-Philippe connected to a hunter’s club in Saint-Jorioz with a link to two persons from CRPF (ONF 4×4 vehicle).

No, I’m not back. Just itchy fingers and a keyboard.

3-29-2013 at 08:41:29

@RiffRaff it stinks BIG time!!!
@All… keep those ideas coming we must get somewhere.
Following y’all!

3-29-2013 at 09:00:43


OK, not to worry. You are not back …. that was your doppelganger writing that, I know.


Great idea. I’ve also already thought of having my hair done at Sylvain Mollier’s unofficial widow’s place. Problem is what will I do with my English accent? Surely, they will immediately smell a rat on hearing it and clamp up.


It will have to be EM for the solution. The other one already created the issue.


Transform your new idea into a film script. Seeing Brad Pitt is my cousin I will get him to produce, direct and play the lead role, in other words, the killer. (By the way, I don’t know Pitt from Adam.)


That must be the most expensive pee ever because it cost the life of 4 people and left two children as orphans. Unless one considers when Samson went to have one and someone crept up on him and started cutting off his hair. (Hope I have this Bible story right: it was Samson wasn’t it who, when he lost his hair, also lost his strength? Or was it Moses? No, he was the guy on the mountain. Or was it Jonah …but no he was the guy in the whale’s stomach.) No offence meant, so please no offence to be taken.


We will without doubt keep the ideas coming.

3-29-2013 at 09:12:07

Good Friday is not a public (bank) holiday in France so it’s only a public (bank) holiday on Monday.

3-29-2013 at 09:21:30


Small detail: We have already blown that “aunt’s” cover once above. She is not even an aunt of Sylvain Mollier.


The problem is to really link any possible Philippe, with any of the persons involved.

As I wrore recently, I have a pretty clear picture of who is behind this, but to really prove that is tricky.

1. You could, if you belonged to the investigation, search for the gun and the ammunition. If you then can tie these to a person, you might have a case.

2. You can try and tie a person to the crime scene. Then you also have to belong to the investigation, so that you can check different persons alibis for that time and day.

3. You can prove that one of the persons involved is obviously lying, say e.g. Mr. Brett-Martin. Or that there are connections between the persons involved, which they have not revealed (not telling the whole truth). I think that this is a possible way forward. If you can prove that someone is lying/not telling the whole truth, they will get into serious problem.

3-29-2013 at 11:42:04

For all, another thought, and use your ‘imagination’, try to ‘image’ the scene:

AH’s were taking happy pictures in Arnand/Doussard at 15:15

15-20 minutes later they were at Martinet (they passed the ‘masons’ who state AH were not in a hurry)

… we all know this …

NOW, picture YOURSELF being on holiday. Would you be able to travel in 15-20 minutes from 1515 Pictures to 1535 Martinet, if you were just ‘cruising around’???

If I try to imagine this I have a big problem. I assume AH didn’t know of Martinet of a prior visit, and to make the trip 1515 Arnand to 1535 Martinet you can NOT allow for any ‘hold up’ (sic), there is simply NO TIME for a delay!

AH must have travelled in a direct line from 1515 pictures to 1535 Martinet!


Was is really just ‘cruising around’? It is possible, but I myself do NOT ‘cruise around’ like this. I really get the impression (from the timeline) that AH MUST have had Martinet as ‘preset destination’

I think it holds a very important clue! (Why AH was at Martinet).

— Max

3-29-2013 at 11:46:38

@Lars, regarding the ‘aunt’ Suzanne Ginolin, the surname was listed in the death notice, SM had a sister, Sylvaine, I have found a Sylvie Ginolin (Ginollin), if this is her, then Suzanne would be her mother-in-law and looked upon as an aunt by marriage to SM (?).

Sylvie and her husband make cheese the famous Tom des Bauges, there are plenty of links via Google. She looks about the right age and has dark hair, which I believe did SM.

With regard to the idea that the Schutz-Morange wanted to stop a marriage between their daughter and SM, because of him becoming a likely inheriter, from what I know of French law, be it upon death or divorce, anything owned before marriage belongs to that person and the widow(er), divorcee would not have a claim on it. In this case the child would be the inheriter before and after marriage as the pharmacy was signed over in 2011.

Now, it is another matter for someone to bump off SM because he was abusing the kindness of his girlfriend, he was on paternity leave and had apparently negotiated three years off work, was cycling the countryside with a new 5,000 Euro bike, were there other gifts that he received, this could easily upset her family.

Although, as I stated before, a pharmacy has to have a Pharmacist present at all times when issuing medication, they are ultimately responsible. I have no doubt that Thierry and Genevieve would cover for their daughter a day or so a week, but longterm they must have passed the business to their daughter for them to take their retirement, he’s about 63, I also doubt the pregnancy was planned.

I would be interested to know how they have compensated their son, Laurent, maybe they have gifted him their home ? As long as they live for about 9 years (?), then taxes will be low or nothing, die before that and the gift becomes subject to tax about 16%.

Also, did they do this not just for retirement but with the chances of the socialists gaining power knew that a wealth tax was going tobe put back in, their assets would have been subject to this.

3-29-2013 at 13:00:37


Excellent search and analysis. Especially the motivation part. I personally have researched a bit for simliar murder cases involving inheritage disputes in germany where children are involved. And guess what: there is a significant peak of cases where the legal guardian of the children was murdered because of inheritance disputes. Most of these cases are solved very quickly, so whoever had the guts to do this, he must have a pretty good alibi and cool blooded.

just for information: In Germany the regular marriage case is the Zugewinngemeinschaft, which means that everybody owns something he brings to the marriage in case of a divorce, but only up to the value it had at the beginning of the marriage. That means if – lets say a Pharmacy in Munich – is worth 1 Million at the beginning of the marriage and (due to good business and inflation) after 5 years is worth 4 Million, the divorcing pharmacist owes his partner 50% of the Zugewinn => 3/2 = 1,5 Million. Since the non pharmacist partner can´t take a part of the pharmacy (because its indivisible) he has to pay it in cash. But what if the pharmacist can´t pay 1,5 million cash? Well, in that case that Pharmacy is sold and here is our real threat.
The Schutz-Morange family had to prepare for that case, especially when the debts on CS because of the sale are still in place. As non-married partner SM was no threat but the child and a prospective marriage changes everything.

just my 2 cents

3-29-2013 at 13:09:20

@ Max Re: Why SAH at martinet

maybe he had one of the (in)famous BMW navigation systems which were misleading many people at a certain time. Model year could fit. So if he thought he could drive straight through the woods it makes sense why he stopped at the place without getting out of the women and Zeena. He wanted to have a look at the sign and got out, Zainab (being 7 years old and agile) too. So it could be “wrong place wrong time” here too.

“Im Dezember 1998 fuhr ein BMW-Fahrer aus Hamburg nachts ins Wasser, weil sein Navigationssystem keinen Hinweis auf die Fähre gab und die vorhandenen Zeichen nicht beachtet wurden.”

3-29-2013 at 13:27:58


Regarding “aunts”: If I remember their relationship correctly she is the mother of the wife of one of Sylvain Mollier’s brothers (I am to lazy to check what we wrote earlier, but I believe that was the conclusion also then). The relationship is then very weak.

Laurent is as far as I know married and working in Paris for the moment, so if the parents wanted to compensate him, they probably had to choose something else than a house in Grignon.

But I think that whole pharmacy transaction should be looked into, for this case and for tax reasons. M. Schutz does not appear to me to be the kind of man who lets anybody runs his business without him controlling it in the background.

Digression: It was kind of spooky when I a couple of days ago watched a French documentary about a murder case in the USA (Michael Petersson, 2003). When I read about the production team at the end of the film I noticed the name Laurent Schutz, Paris, HLC Production. “Our” Laurent is however working in another type of business (stagiaire SIAAP suivi haute résolution milieu naturel Seine chez SIAAP).

3-29-2013 at 13:36:18


If AH had such a ‘bizar’ navsystem, wouldn’t the investigators discover this fairly quickly and with that fact conclude that AH must taken a ‘wrong turn’ and have fallen victim of a ‘nutter’ present (with other intentions) at Martinet … and on reaching that conclusion also withdraw most of the external/abroad resources? And furthermore they would now have to focus on ‘nutter’ and/or SM!

None of this happened:)

I do not think the nav system is to ‘blame’

— Max

3-29-2013 at 13:51:50

@Max Re: Nav system

You are right in terms of the probability that it was the nav systems fault, but anyway do you think the police has checked the nav system for last routes etc.? I doubt that.
BTW: With the GPS data inside the car they should know when the al-hillis were at what place and at what time. Every nav system tracks this data back at least for an hour before its overwritten. Why? For liability reasons: Car manufacturers want to make sure that they can proove the car didn´t lead to the accident but the driver. Of course this data is only accessible if you have a special reader which contract garages of the manufacturers usually have.

3-29-2013 at 14:15:53


Good point about the GPS (Others, but not me, have talked about the GPS before)

I assume there is no GPS data

Or if indeed present it didn’t reveal anything, because why would there be so much ‘fuss’ about the 1515 pictures if the GPS already detailed that AH was there and even detailed the last full hour (perhaps it was much less, say 15 minutes, and with the BMW still wheels spinning that 15 minutes will go from 1530 to 1545 BM shuts down engine)

Still …

We have a pretty good idea why/how SM was at Martinet
But we dont have a clue why AH was at Martinet

— Max

3-29-2013 at 17:21:44

As I find the AH->Martinet important I try to focus on this quote

‘The position of a child’s car seat indicated that the elder girl was travelling in the front passenger seat when the family drove up La Route de Combe d’Ire near the village of Chevaline.Zainab was outside the vehicle, parked at the start of a mountain hiking trail’

So, at 1515 there are pictures. After that the family goes into the car. Zainab in front (kid seat? kid seat was prolly prepped earlier at the camping??). They pass Ch and ‘masons’ in no hurry. They arrive at Martinet. They park (possibly because of the barrier?). AH and Zainab get out. The others remain in the car and are strapped (iirc)

Now, what can we make of this?

At least everything points to a ‘no stress’ situation!! (happy pictures, no hurry, kid in front, kid outside)

— Max

3-29-2013 at 18:39:31

Actually I think RiffRaff’s idea about the nav. system is quite plausible and reasonable, I have also been in a car, driving around trying to find a road where there was no road.

I mean, it does not have to be a big error, leading them down into Lake Annecy, but just perhaps showing that it was possible to drive much further up into the mountains than it actually was.

Mr. al-Hilli out sight-seeing, thought it would be funny to show his relatives some mountain sites, and followed the nav.system’s instructions, which would normally only have lead to some disappointment.

3-29-2013 at 20:23:43


As you’re back, I’ll give you a gift on this day of passion. You deserve it well.

I’ll tell you how I have found my suspect.

But first, I need you sayings why I am interested for this crime. It isn’t only the monstrous death of the family SAH and SM. Every day we see such horrible crimes, and even more in the world. And in the past. All we can remember thousands of cases, such as the Holocaust, Sabra and Shatila, the Man-bombs in Jerusalem, the air raids on civilians, the Russian Revolution, the favelas in Rio de Janeiro, Mexico, Colombia, the Uganda, the Kosovo, all the crimes that appear in various newspapers and even the crucifixion of Christ. Whether one or millions, which revolt me this is the death of innocents. (It’s off topic).

In our case, which marked my attention is the photo of the car in the parking lot. I immediately elaborated one teorie, that the car was forced to back down, not by a man to feet or motorbike, but also a larger car than the BMW. I hung this scenario, I never did teorie changed, so speculation that it became a conviction. Only mine. Since there are several forums on the subject, I put my teorie to develope. I frequented France 2, C.Murray and MZT .. After a day of work, I “spent time” on the forums. it became pathological.
Thanks to it, now I understand English better.

The dreams that we are often the result of events that happen to us every day. The dreams can be induced by subliminales messages contained in the thousands of photos and comments that we see. It is possible.

Oui, I had a dream. (please do not laugh …)

“I was in front of a water well, which was full of newspapers and magazines. There was a whirlwind down to the bottom and in the center a black hole.
I looked and I put my arm into the dark hole. Then I pulled and in my hand there were letters that followed and bronze color (but do not shine). I saw a NAME and at this moment I heard the cry of a woman who say this name. As a cry of anguish of a mother who says, “Why did you do thaaaaaat…., my son.” After I heard an another name : MARTIN …”


At first I thought Martin was BM, after with your help I knew he is Zak.

Unfortunately I am not a Seer (in portuguese “Vidente”), because I’ve never won the lotto. This dream is probably induced by subliminals messages in comments.

During this odyssey, I always had at side of me a faithful friend. His name is BACCHUS. He is red as blood, and it is he who iluminated my thoughts.

Today he told me that he is tired and say to wait.

I will enjoy to learn to paint beautiful pictures with grapes, vine leaves and ivy. What do you think, Bacchus?


PS: Today (here it is the Easter bank holiday), I beat my record time translation, almost 3 hours!, Woow … But Marilyn, Oui and everyone else deserves

3-30-2013 at 11:22:40

A happy Easter to you all.

Just to remind you as we go into the 7th month of discussions -we are not to accuse anyone by name of the shootings.

3-30-2013 at 11:47:27

@Max and Lars, have alook at the map from Viamichelin, zoom in and you will see that the continuous road from Chevaline up Route Forestiere is Moulin, just after the last house opposite the farm on the (site of builders) the road is marked as a track…… the builders could not have known whether that car was headed up the Combe or would hairpin into Moulin. The original statements from them was the car was seen between 2:30 and 3pm. Now, what if indeed AH had a meeting at Martinet planned for 3:30, he was far too early but wanted to check out the road he was to take, he drove as far as the sign then hairpinned through Moulin and back to Chevaline then to Doussard where the photos were taken, he then drove back to sign via Moulin, not wanting to pass the builders again who were partly blocking the road.

As you are all aware, I am convinced the crime is local but all the timings are askew. After you’ve looked at the Viamichelin map go back to Google Earth and you will see that the stretch is heavily wooded.

3-30-2013 at 15:11:33

Just thought I’d say that I have seen posts today from the 28th that have never appeared before – Marilyn are you being moderated externally ?

@Lars, please look at the Michelin online map, I have no doubt what you say is true, but it would appear that the last section of Route de Chevaline isn’t any better. My point is that the builders COULD NOT have seen where AH was destined, he had a choice to continue to Martinet, end of driveable road or hairpin back to the village via Moulin – I do agree that builders were probably stretching the truth in their favour, afterall they admit to being behind with the work they were contracted to do, no doubt too many extra long lunches and late starts, early finishes ! The problem is that what if AH wife was aware of a meeting, she wouldn’t object the, would she ? As for BM he wasn’t seen by the builders, nor the 4×4 or motorcycle, so they either passed before the builders were on site, after or arrived and left by Moulin, what about PD, he was the one who referred to Moulin, which suggests to me that is how he arrived.

3-30-2013 at 16:14:55

@Lars, I have finally been able to get Google streetview to work in Moulin ! Now I am laughing, you see I live in France in a rural community amongst many farms and old houses, what you see as rubbish is people not throwing away old doors, wood and large plastic containers, the delapidated houses are really quiet normal especially amongst the elderly, I could send you photos of such place no more than 50 metres from where I live, an old house that we have spent a large amount of money on to bring it into the 21st Century, those with little retiremnt income are not able to do this – it actually makes for a very quaint place to live. As for Moulin itself, that road connects almost directly to where the photos were taken in Doussard via Arnand, the country lane is no worse than those where I live that are not highways, someone on holiday seeing the mountain rise infront of them would easily be tempted to see how far up they could go and what could be seen. Now I am convinced the AH were on a country drive during their holiday. SM was not lost, deceived or took a wrong turn, unless of course he was meant to go as far as the old saw mill, Moulin/Chevaline junction and go back. Google Earth is in winter with snow on the ground, I bet it looked fabulous in late summer afternoon, full of sunshine.

3-30-2013 at 17:03:48



I just counted the comments for the 28th and there are 10. It has happened in the past that comments disappeared and Max had one disappear last week and so did I. I am the only administrator. I never work on the site itself, but always in admin.

I’ve had a feeling all along that we are being monitored and this is why I think that we should never accuse someone by name.

Someone (it might have been Alexander Cartier) worked out once how long it takes for a comment to appear on the site. The further a commentator was from France the longer it took.

3-30-2013 at 17:50:23
3-30-2013 at 19:15:42

Hello, everybody. I naively assumed that comments would be closed until the beginning of April, hence I have only now checked back.

Regarding that Swiss guy who was arrested and subsequently released, I strongly assume that he must be either a dealer or at least an advid collector of historical firearms, who keeps records of all the guns that he sold. IMHO, the police cannot have traced the gun used in the Chevaline killings back to him on the basis of a mere grip-plate fragment alone; either he engraved his initials on the magazine bottom or some such, or the part that came off was a piece of the actual firing mechanism, bearing a serial number.

Regarding the “lot number” of the ammo used, to my mind, that strongly points towards towards vintage Swiss-Army-issue ammo having been used. As far as I know, this type of ammunition is the only one in this calibre that comes with the year of manufacture stamped onto the bottom of the casings. Private-sector manufacturers do have lot numbers stamped on the boxes, but – AFAIK – no markings apart from the calibre and the manufacturer’s name itself on the actual ammunition.

Taken in conjunction, those two facts give me hope that investigators may eventually be able to piece together the trail of the pistol and the ammunition, a trail that probably really originates in Geneva.

Insofar as the idea that the killer may have planned to kill from a distance is concerned, I seem to remember that the average shooting distance in gun-related crimes is something like 2.3 metres. Particularly with a relatively puny calibre such as 7,65 x 21 mm, ten to fifteen metres would be the absolute maximum at which even an experienced shooter would feel confident about taking somebody on with a gun like this. From what has been reported, the Chevaline killer initially tried his luck at some distance on the AH’s BMW, but missed most of the time.

3-30-2013 at 19:25:44


First of all, you are absolutely right that the builders could not know where the car went after they seen it, and as you say there are two options.

Then you are of course right about how the French countryside can look like (even though my experiences of that lie some years back). But when I “drive” around in Chevaline it looks like a nice and tidy community, with the exception of the area around Route du Moulin, it’s there you see the dilapitated houses, graffiti, and it was there they found the dead (drug-related) girl.

Even though I was somewhat careless when I was out travelling it would be an area that I, as a tourist, would avoid (from what I can see on Google).

My main reason, however, why I think it is unlikely that Mr. al-Hilli went up to the sign, down to Doussard, and up again to Route de Forestiere and Le Marinet for a meeting, is his family. First his kids, two lively girls, they are not just transported around like luggage, they would object loudly to anything they would not think was funny. Then his wife, if he had told her why he was doing this, I wonder what kind of meeting it could have been, that made her agree to that. If he hadn’t told her, well God bless him.

I and RiffRaff had a little discussion about management above. I told RiffRaff how keen we Swedish are, to discuss and come to an agreement before we do anything. Worst are the Swedish women 🙂 . I am of course generalizing wildly now, but it lies a big truth in it. I don’t have to warn since you are a woman yourself, but for the male part of our commentators I can issue a warning, if you are thinking about a longer relationship with a Swedish woman, be prepared for long, very long, discussions, and that an agreement has to be reached before you do anything, or you are doomed. If you are not prepared for that the relationsship will probably not last long. Agreements are vital to Swedish women and to a somewhat lesser degree also to Swedish men.

Mrs al-Hilli belonged, as you know, to an academic family, and was partly brought up in Sweden. We can read almost daily in Swedish newspapers about clashes in immigrant (mostly arabic) families, when the young girls in the family learn how the native-born Swedish girls live and act.
I find it very hard to believe that Mrs al-Hilli would agree to be just transported around, and even harder to believe that she would agree to go to some mysterious meeting, with her children, up in the middle of nowhere.

3-30-2013 at 19:57:45


Cause for misconceptions and unnecesaary debate … gremlins. I have 22 comments listed on 3-28-2013.

It’s making sense why sometimes I never get a response or same content is repeated hours/days later.

Most of us have worked with Google street view from the beginning as it’s basic info needed to put a timeline and escape routes together.


Get a rest, nothing unusual to have a dream and hope for Zak Martin to lead us closer to killer X or to circumstances we are not able to “see”.

3-30-2013 at 20:16:27

Re: Daily Mail

What is hilarious with that article is that the French Police now after six (6!) months have spoken for the first with one of their prime suspects!!
Even though I don’t regard him as suspect of anything, I would anyhow have spoken to him the week after the murder.

So now we know, they have not spoken to the Mollier family, they have not spoken to the al-Hilli family, they have not spoken to the relatives in Iraq!!

So what have they been doing for 6 Months? Solving Sudokus? (calm down Max, I am just joking 🙂 )

3-30-2013 at 20:27:02


22 comments for 3-28-2013! Then there is something very odd going on here.

3-30-2013 at 20:35:03

@Peter Re: Gun precision

I posted the original protocols from the swiss army above and I did some research on the net. Especially this type of gun is highly acclaimed for its precision and reliability in distance shooting (if kept in good condition). Thats why it was used as the standard weapon for over half a century (!).

@ Lynda re: Mrs. al-hilli

I agree with you. If she knew something about a secret meeting in the middle of nowhere she would never have agreed ! (Swedish or not 🙂 ).
And thanks for the article. I am staggered. HOw can they talk to ZAid now? 7 (!!!!!) months later?! I am dreaming, am I?

3-30-2013 at 21:22:00

Regarding the streetview it is the first time I have been able to get it to work, I’ve explained before that we are at the end of a line and in the middle of doing something the connection goes off. Anyway, Lars I hear what you say about Moulin, but odd places exist on the outskirts of villages, I didn’t realise this is where the dead girl was found, I thought it was in the forest.

Regarding the Daily Mail article, this has been picked up from the French Press where it does say that he was spoken to after the events, if you recall he took himself to a Police Station, presumably Surrey, maybe he only spoke with them at the time ?

Regarding the gun and ammo used, I have found reference to this combination being used in Switzerland for target practice, what distance would that be ?

I am more convinced than ever that the AH were just tootling about on a sunny afternoon. I hope that somehow a conclusion of no family involvement in order that the two girls can be put in the care of their aunt.

3-31-2013 at 09:10:10

Morning All and a Happy Easter Sunday to you. I will be watching Pope Francis at 12.45 today. I like this man very much indeed.

re: The Daily Mail’s report.

Well well well. What do we have here?

The DM wrote: Eric Maillaud, the Annecy prosecutor who is leading the investigation, has continually claimed that the key to solving the murder mystery ‘lies abroad’.
He has made no secret of his frustration at not being able to interview Zaid at length, but that situation changed when officers working directly for him arrived in the UK last week.
According to a French police source, Zaid was asked to explain at length his ‘whereabouts on the day of the tragedy.’
He also offered information about the will, and about Saad’s work as satellite technology engineer.
Surrey police, who have to date released next to no information about the enquiry, confirmed that Zaid had been contacted.
But they refused to provide any details about last week’s questioning of Zaid, which was today being widely reported in the French media.
‘We have regular contact with him as the next of kin of one of the victims,’ said a Surrey Police spokesman. ‘There is nothing more than that. He has never been arrested or considered a suspect’.

Why have the French investigators been unable to question Saad’s brother before?

Please don’t guillotine me when you read the following: The French have a reason for saying that solving the murder lies abroad. They know things they are not revealing because at this stage of the investigation they can’t because the culprit can go where no one would be able to lay a hand on him.

I think I am going to be the recipient of the promised Paris dinner, because I am a lone voice here saying that Saad was the target.

There was this line or two a couple of weeks back about how the assassin knew that there would be several to shoot dead so he had taken sufficient ammo with him. Ah ha!

The assassin (maybe a hired hand) knew or was told that there would be five people to kill but then there was an unexpected 6th – Sylvain Mollier. So who would want the entire Saad branch of the Al-Hilli’s wiped out? Elementary my dear Watson.

3-31-2013 at 09:17:17


I opened comments earlier than the planned April 1 because Lynda so kindly emailed me the link to the Daily Mail report about the Swiss national’s arrest in Geneva. I wanted to share it with you all.

But, fortunately you looked in and saw that we were talking again.

Nice to have you with us too again now. Your comments are always highly appreciated.

3-31-2013 at 11:30:31

@ Marilyn
Thank you for your kind words. Your keeping this thread open over Easter is much appreciated.

@ All
Police said they believe the shooter emerged from the forest trail to ambush the family.
Has that point ever been made so explicitly before? If so, I cannot remember.

@ RiffRaff
Yes, the P06 is a highly precise pistol, and its fixed sights are set for a distance of 50 metres. Thus, no doubt it is possible to shoot the wings off a fly with it at a considerable distance. However, when it comes to shooting people rather than cardboard targets, people who move, who object to being shot and who might fight back, and when it comes to quickly killing those people, 15 metres is widely considered the maximal effective distance for a handgun. (There always are exceptions. The french anti-terrorist unit GIGN for example is famous for using heavy magnum revolvers with 50-centimeter barrels, bipods and telescopic sights for light sniping tasks.) To my mind, the fact that the Chevaline killer chose to kill the occupants of the BMW at almost point-blank range, and that many or most of his shots from a distance missed their target suggests that he did not have a sniper-type attack in mind.

3-31-2013 at 12:10:29


Yes, I think I stated that very explicitly earlier! LOL! 🙂

3-31-2013 at 12:16:46

Though I believe that the intention was to ambush Sylvain Mollier.

3-31-2013 at 14:16:58

@Lars – me too.

3-31-2013 at 14:26:23


I am certainly not going to let you be guillotined. 🙂

But are you suggesting, that the French police is suggesting, that not even the British police is cooperating?!
If so, I can only see one person the British police could be protecting, since they are hardly protecting the al-Hillis.

3-31-2013 at 15:06:47

@Lars Re: British police cooperation

I don´t think that the brits are not cooperating. The french police talked to many people e.g. BM before. Why shouldn´t they be able to talk to Zaid? Also the press would have gone mad (either french or british) if this would be a case of official non-cooperation. No, I don’t think so. I think its the secret hint we are all looking for that even the french police thinks this is a local case. Hence – being lazy people – they saw no need to talk to Zaid before.

@Peter Re: Shooting distance

You´re right. Shooting on an moving target in a hurry changes successful distances a lot, meaning the shorter the better.

@Marilyn Re: Culprit

If the culprit is a frenchman or a swiss national, he can´t go nowhere because one interpol search order practically puts every possibility to act fast when leaving e.g. planes/Ships etc. out of business. This only makes sense if the culprit has a second nationality (which of course we don´t know but maybe the police does) of a country that would not hand over its citizen to the authorities of another state.

@ all

Happy Easter! 😉

3-31-2013 at 16:51:12


“I think I am going to be the recipient of the promised Paris dinner, because I am a lone voice here saying that Saad was the target.”

If you are right it is me who is paying the dinner. At Bistrot “MON VIEL AMI” , rue Saint-Louis.

Today I’m lazy and i don’t translate.

@Dam40 on france2 forum

“Bien.. alors reprenons calmement, sur le lien que tu cites, les pages où j’avais quoté des passages des déclarations du cycliste britannique Brett Martin on peut-être disparu,
il y disait en substance qu’il avait découvert le corps de S. Mollier allongé du côté arrière droit de la voiture, sa tête reposant presque sur la roue, après avoir éloigné le corps il aurait défoncé une vitre pour couper le contact car les roues tournaient encore dans le vide, l’arrière de la voiture butant sur le talus après que Saad al-Hilli ait vraisemblablement enclenché la marche arrière pour faire demi-tour,

maintenant si l’on ajoute ceci:
“L’examen médico-légal du corps du cycliste, qui a été retrouvé de l’autre côté du parking, atteste qu’il aurait été accroché par la voiture lorsqu’elle a reculé. Le corps de Sylvain Mollier porte, sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique. Ce mouvement expliquerait son éloignement par rapport à son vélo.”

Please, Marilyn, How do you explain that ?

3-31-2013 at 16:55:39

On final comment of @Dam40 I forgot to put the main

“On peut en déduire que était au volant et a tenté de faire demi-tour alors que le cycliste était déjà allongé à terre, ce qui implique que S.Mollier a été abattu avant la famille al-Hilli,
ce qui voudrait dire aussi que Saad al-Hilli s’est arrêté sur le parking lorsqu’il a vu le cycliste tombé à terre,
alors que le meurtrier était encore sur les lieux, la suite est facile à imaginer…”

3-31-2013 at 16:57:48

Elementary my dear Watson…

3-31-2013 at 17:06:49

Something that has niggled at me all along, SM and his paternity leave and negotiated three year absence from work. He would not have been in receipt of salary.

How was he to pay towards their upkeep ? His brother said that it was an acrimonious divorce and he had debts.

In the movies they always ask ‘Did he have any enemies?’, in this case not enemies but I bet there were quite a few people not happy with him !

3-31-2013 at 17:22:08

I was referring to SM’s two boys, Leo and Mathis, by law he is as responsible as the mother, even after she re-married.

3-31-2013 at 17:24:15

EM himself cannot talk to Zaid, because his English isn’t good enough.

I suspect that the french cops were unhappy about the manner in which the UK police have previously interviewed Zaid. Perhaps they treated him too gently for their liking, questioning him as a bereaved relative rather than a key suspect. Given that the French considered it necessary to ask him about his whereabouts on the day of the murders, nobody appears to have asked him that before – which is strange.

Having french cops interrogate a UK citizen on UK soil is quite a dramatic political gesture. Despite the paneuropean framework of this investigation, I don’t think that the UK police were in any way required to permit that interrogation, or that Zaid was under any legal obligation to talk to the french investigators.

Speculating, this development *may* have something to do with the man arrested in Geneva on suspicion of supplying the gun, who was subsequently released without charge. There are two possible explanations for his release: Either he didn’t supply the gun (in which case one wonders how they came to believe that in the first place), or he didn’t knowingly supply it. To me, the latter appears more likely. It may be that he reported this particular gun stolen, for example. If that guy from Geneva had sold or lent the gun to somebody, the police would have caught the killer by now.

3-31-2013 at 17:28:56


Was he “vivres au crochets” de CS ?
Who is the ex-boyfriend of CS ?, personaly I don’t know.

Perhaps an another suspect !…

3-31-2013 at 18:32:49


“strange”- that is an understatement.

But this is the strangest police investigation I have ever followed.

Would not the normal procedure be, as I recall from other cases, that the interrogation is performed by the British police in the presence of the French police? The French police can put questions to the interrogated person, but through the British police. In that way you ensure that there are no misunderstandings due to the language barrier, and that the laws of the country (in this case the UK) are upheld.

3-31-2013 at 18:57:07

@Bacchus & Lynda

As far as we know he was “vivre aux crochets de” CS.

3-31-2013 at 19:07:14


J’adore l’Ile Saint Louis.

Bacchus, you can write in French too at times if you wish. We all here know a little French. Portuguese though we do not.

“On peut en déduire que était au volant et a tenté de faire demi-tour alors que le cycliste était déjà allongé à terre, ce qui implique que S.Mollier a été abattu avant la famille al-Hilli,
ce qui voudrait dire aussi que Saad al-Hilli s’est arrêté sur le parking lorsqu’il a vu le cycliste tombé à terre,
alors que le meurtrier était encore sur les lieux, la suite est facile à imaginer…”

I did mention that I wondered who had first said that the BMW had driven over Sylvain Mollier.

There is also this, as given in Bacchus’ comment:

“L’examen médico-légal du corps du cycliste, qui a été retrouvé de l’autre côté du parking, atteste qu’il aurait été accroché par la voiture lorsqu’elle a reculé. Le corps de Sylvain Mollier porte, sur son flanc, des marques d’enfoncement partiel de la cage thoracique. Ce mouvement expliquerait son éloignement par rapport à son vélo.”

Yet again however I will say that the injuries might have been caused when Killer X dragged him out of the way to hide his body.

Oh dear, I will not listen, will I? Well, someone once said: no one can be argued out of a viewpoint into which he/she had not been argued into in the first place.


France does not easily extradite one of her nationals. Neither does the US or the UK. There is a case in the UK now where South Africa wants the UK to extradite a British national and the Brits are refusing saying that the suspect’s mental case does not allow for extradition.(The Shrien Dewani Case.)

And Germany refused to extradite Dr. Dieter Krombach who raped and then killed Kalinka Bamberski, his step-daughter despite that he was tried in absentia in 1995 in France and found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment. Kalinka’s father had Krombach abducted and dropped across the French border and he is now safely in jail where he can no longer rape young women.

3-31-2013 at 19:12:17

@ Lars, 3-31-2013 at 18:32:49

I am no lawyer and therefore do not know the ins and outs of the supranational, paneuropean investigative framework under which this inquiry is being conducted. However, my understanding is that you are right, the usual procedure would be for somebody from the French side to be present while the UK police conduct the actual interrogation.

Again speculating wildly, I can only think of two possible reasons why they would deviate from the usual practice in this case:

1. The French side are seriously unhappy with their British counterparts and simply do not trust them to get this right. That idea sounds a bit melodramatic, but, in this case, anything seems possible. The contrast between the views of the French side, earlier quoted as saying that Zaid “would be arrested if he were on French soil,” and those of the UK side is quite stark: ‘We have regular contact with him as the next of kin of one of the victims,’ said a Surrey Police spokesman. ‘There is nothing more than that. He has never been arrested or considered a suspect’.

2. The French genuinely believe that Zaid is a viable suspect – I know that you don’t think so, of course – and want to keep things simple in case they do manage to get him into court. If and when this case is ever tried, it will be tried in France, and it would be much cheaper and easier to have native French-speakers testify as witnesses.

3-31-2013 at 19:17:13

I’m off now for a long night of serial killing in Paris. The streets will be red this night.

3-31-2013 at 19:41:29

@Marilyn Re: extradition

You could also add that the USA will presumably never extradite Amanda Knox to Italy.

My conclusion is that these extradition treaties actually never works when big and powerful countries are involved.

3-31-2013 at 19:56:59

Eurojust, a collaboration of EU prosecutors and judges, and its relationship with other law enforcement agencies. Eurojust has the power to make formal recommendations to member states in relation to primacy of jurisdiction and double jeopardy, and it can also provide advice and recommendations in terms of the application of the European arrest warrant (EAW). On the latter, remember the Assange case between Sweden and the UK. EAW can only be issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal prosecution (not merely an investigation).

3-31-2013 at 20:08:39


Extradition treaties are bilateral between nations. One does not want to be in the UK when the US asks for your extradition. The UK “gives away” its citizens to US authority. Only guarantee, you will not be granted a death sentence. If the asking nation has a poor track record on human rights (torture), the UK may want to extradite you by all means, the EU court can block the execution (Abu Qatada, a radical British-based Muslim cleric).

3-31-2013 at 22:08:02

@Lars, the Route du Moulin, I’ve looked at many photos, appears to be the route used by the securty services going up and down and the hearses with the bodies and so on.

The builders saw nothing pass but the BMW, everyone else went up and down via Moulin, because all the others were local, the AH’s weren’t – how this helps, I don’t know except to me it proves that AH didn’t know the area, Satnav or not.

As for Zaid, asking his whereabouts is laughable, does anyone really think HE left the UK and arranged to ambush his brother and family ?

I travel often between the two countries, by ferry, shuttle, Eurostar and aeroplane, Passports are scanned, checked and checked again, I often get stopped and searched (woman travelling alone), your ticket has to match your name and so on. This is a red herring, if Zaid was involved someone else did it on his behalf, so I’d be looking at family connections that arrived in Geneva in the days before and after, car rentals even motorbike rentals, big job undoubtedly but far better than sending people to Iraq – do they expect to knock on a door and find someone with their hands up declaring, ‘Fair cop, guv’ !

3-31-2013 at 22:26:24


One does not want to be anywhere if USA wants you extradited! Perhaps China could be a refuge? I do though somewhat doubt that Sweden will extradite Assange to the USA, if he is ever sent to Sweden. But I am not sure, we have made some very dubious extraditions before.


Since Route du Moulin is the fastest route if you come from Lake Annecy/Doussard, I am sure that all locals would prefer that route. So I think it was an obvious choice for e.g. Sylvain Mollier. As you say, the al-Hillis are the only ones with no (known) local connection, so for them it could be natural to choose the road that looked nicer, not caring if it was longer or not.

3-31-2013 at 22:29:04

Come to think of it, this could be an additional indication that also Philippe Didierjean and his girlfriends were local people.

3-31-2013 at 22:54:48

Is there an explanation for the secrecy of the three locals and the pseudonym Philippe D. I agree they are most likely locals, nothing stays secret in the villages of Chevaline, Doussard and Annecy. It only makes sense he wanted his name out of the media, contrary to Brett Martin. Philippe D. as a “witness” was unknown for a few days, so there was confusion over who made the call to the emergency services. The ONF or CRPF guys didn’t come forward for weeks. A strange flow of events with a French or Savoie wall of silence. Only EM and Marilyn follow the leads of Sherlock Holmes, or was it Watson who thought the most obvious until (scientific) evidence or deduction proved otherwise.

3-31-2013 at 23:11:38

@Lars, exactly and PD/BM et al, went back down to the nearest houses some 4kms away.. Moulin, had it been otherwise then I’m sure M Fillion-Robin (builder) would have had plenty to say about it ! There has been much said about him blocking the road, he didn’t have any problem because locals didn’t pass there, the only people he need worry about was anyone accessing the farm next door !

If you did look at the Viamichelin site you would also see that from the ‘photo’ house in Doussard, a visitor would leave by the one way system, not Route d’Arnand.

I am trying to find an article from the French Press that appeared the other day, subject being the motorbike, it made reference to a bike on or near the COL not one seen leaving Martinet downhill.

Two motorcycles, the one BM saw may have been accounted for, has someone come forward ? SO it just leaves the MC seen by Farmer and cheese maker Jeanin/Janin, whom I believe did not get the time wrong.

I trust the enquiry team are looking at all registration records for owners of MC in the area, simples, have any been sold recently or burnt out ? Have neighbours noticed a MC no longer there/being used – with what explanation ? 800 people have been spoken to, does that include the drivers the day after, may I suggest the enquiry team put aside all preconceived ideas, forget the Iraqi origin which is so obviously blinding them and look to your own FIRST. Because if this was local and not directed at Sylvain Mollier, Les Bauges are harbouring a very dangerous individual, whether they know it or not.

Way back I believed the MC was still in Les Bauges, if a cow can go missing for three weeks, then found with a bullet in its head down a ditch, why not a motorbike ? Killer leaves by foot unseen, easy.

3-31-2013 at 23:58:24


If exist a “French or Savoie wall of silence”, we break it !.
I put my life at stake, and I’m ready to go to Annecy.

por Bacchus !

4-1-2013 at 01:28:25

About AH at Martinet:

– AH planning a ‘meeting’ there … makes hardly any sense
– AH getting lost there (nav or otherwise) … I dont see it
– AH sightseeing? with little kids there? … makes hardly any sense

I can give some credit to ‘Zainab peeing’ although from what we learned there was not a single hint of Z actually doing that (and a reason for AH to go up there)

So, I’m still stuck with the idea that AH were send/lured there

It only needs one (trusted) person telling AH and family that ‘up there’ there is something nice to see “Meet you up there’. Because in reality there is nothing to see up there (not with small kids anyway)

… thinking of a devious twist

Perhaps AH were not send to Martinet but to a place futher uphill (e.g. a gite) where they would ‘meet’ with the person who invited the AH’s

AH drives up there but hits the barrier. The barrier of course was known to X, but not to AH. So AH and Zainab get out to ‘check’ what is the matter with this barrier and stuff, while the other stay in the car.

But AH as ‘mask’ are now in place. Nicely synced with SM coming up the hill.

X strikes. SM first. AH’s as ‘mask’ (nutter look alike) and SM executed.

To me, all the puzzle pieces fit!

The only ‘missing link’ is the proof that AH’s were actually send up there, and the other intricate bit is how on earth X managed to pull off the ‘sync’ SM-AH

— Max

4-1-2013 at 01:50:37

And perhaps of this SM-AH sync mask thing … X had to strike so quickly, because AH hitting the barrier possibly would leave any minute. X knowing that and possibly partly surprised by the fact that the ‘mask’ actually had worked … So it was Now of Never for X … kill SM and ‘mask’ it as a ‘nutter’ case.

If it is a ‘mask’ scenario. X and AH would not have had contact by cellphone. And X would have made sure he did not give AH his mobile number. Otherwise AH would have contacted X when hitting the barrier, and X would have been exposed!

Btw 16:00 seems like a ok time to ‘invite ppl for a drink’

— Max

4-1-2013 at 01:55:44

Last thought on the ‘mask with invite’ scenario.

X for sure brought enough ammo! He needed this because in the ‘mask with invite’ he did NEED TO kill all adult AH’s! Any survinving AH adult would exposed X by stating there actually had been a ‘meeting’ (the ‘invite’) … and the inviting X (or helper) would instantly by under suspicion!

— Max

(surprised by myself to detailing the mask so much while still imho keeping all facts intact and believeable)

4-1-2013 at 02:16:33

Dman, I already had shut down my PC but thought of an even better (because more simple and more failsave) variant. As follows:

AH were invited (for a drink) up there beyond the barrier. X said ‘You drive up there to the barrier, I will open it for you!’

Hence AH’s drove up there, hit the barrier, park. Women stay inside while AH en Zainab get out and strole around waiting for X to open the barrier.

Why is this variant better/simple?

Because it give X a better ‘timewindow’ … Ask yourself, how long would YOU wait in such a position? 10-15 minutes. I guess so. I think I ouwld give up after 20-30 minutes

In this setup the ‘sync’ is less tight. The only rule is that AH must arrive before SH

Isn’t this exactly what happened?


— Max

4-1-2013 at 02:25:49

In this case X could tweak the sync by releasing SM within a ‘timewindow’

What I mean is that:

If the ‘mask’ was fixed (AH invited at e.g 16:00 at gite beyond barrier) X could work out at what time SM should leave Ugine to make it to Martinet

If SM’s starting time was tweaked it would mean that suspicion goes to those who were in the position to do the ‘tweaking’ …. hmmmm

— Max

4-1-2013 at 09:18:36


There are without doubt many steep slopes in the area where you could dump a MC or throw your gun, and they will not be found for a very long time. That’s why I suggested that the police should fly over the area with a radar. A MC would without any doubt be found, and there is even a chance that a gun could be found.

But seeing and hearing that the police hasn’t even talked to the persons closest to the victims, I have little hope that they will make a thorough search of the area.

4-1-2013 at 09:31:44

So it is April. In a few days it will be 7 months.


Max, any time is an OK time to invite someone for a drink in France. 4 p.m. sure was very OK. When I first arrived in Paris I found it very odd to see ‘little old ladies’ standing at the zinc-topped counter in a bistro at 11 a.m. having a glass of red wine, their string bags on the floor beside them.

4-1-2013 at 10:10:17

Somebody is extracting the urine there. Six months after the fact, they decide that Zaid might need an armed guard after all?

4-1-2013 at 10:39:04


Thanks for the Telegraph link.

4-1-2013 at 11:49:59

Some more background reading on the man from Geneva suspected of having supplied the gun. As it turns out, he didn’t report his gun stolen or anything like that, he was erroneously suspected of having *sold* it to the wrong person.

Thus, that trail really sounds like a dead end.

One remaining glimmer of hope concerns the ammunition: Actuellement, la police scientifique est parvenue a identifier le lot de fabrication des munitions utilisées par le tireur et a entrepris un long et fastidieux travail, pour retracer le parcours de chacune de ces milliers de boîte de balles, issues de ce même lot. Le meurtrier sera peut-être un jour retrouvé grâce aux nombreuses douilles (plus de 20) qu’il a abandonnées sur la scène de crime…

If they have really narrowed this down to an individual production batch, it cannot have been on the basis of markings on the spent casings, it must have been something like the specific composition of the gunpowder or something like that.

4-1-2013 at 11:58:17

a@Peter & @All

Also from le Dauphine’s report mentioned by Peter the following:

De fait, si la brigade de recherches de Chambéry est toujours le centre névralgique de l’enquête, des équipes travaillent aujourd’hui en France, en Angleterre, mais également en Suisse et en Italie, ainsi qu’en Suède et en Espagne, pour vérifier chaque piste susceptible de faciliter la résolution de ce quadruple meurtre, qui reste aujourd’hui une énigme. Une coopération internationale qui se fait avec l’aide du bureau européen Eurojust, chargé de faciliter les relations judiciaires entre les différents pays.

Why do we need Eurojust when we’ve got Interpol?

I wonder if it will indeed be the ammo that will lead to the killer.

4-1-2013 at 12:32:45

Regarding the ammunition, I have been wondering why Marilyn’s foregoing quote mentions Italy as one of the countries in which the enquiry is being conducted. As it happens, that is where probably the biggest manufacturer of 7.65 Para ammunition is based:

On another note, the fact that Zaid AH has an armed-response team on call probably does not bode well for the aunt’s plans to adopt the AH daughters. Given that the murderer actually tried to kill the elder daugther, whereas any perceived threat to Zaid must be purely hypothetical, it is difficult to imagine that they would let her live with her aunt 🙁

4-1-2013 at 15:49:19

Perhaps they have put up an armed-response team to protect him from E. Maillaud and his French gendarmes. 🙂