Chevaline …the forgotten victim … Sylvain Mollier … Xavier Baligant killing … so similar …

Speak of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And speak of being overlooked by the media. Sylvain Mollier is the name of the cyclist who was also shot down on Wednesday in the Chevaline massacre. The 45-year-old local man, father of 3 and cycling enthusiast, had gone out on his normal bike […]

Ugine.

Speak of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And speak of being overlooked by the media.

Sylvain Mollier is the name of the cyclist who was also shot down on Wednesday in the Chevaline massacre.

The 45-year-old local man, father of 3 and cycling enthusiast, had gone out on his normal bike ride when he must have come across the massacre of the Al-Hilli family. Even an amateur sleuth would tell you that such an eye-witness had to be taken out. He had five bullets in his body, one of them in his head. He had no chance of survival.

Sylvain Mollier’s companion became worried when he did not return from his bike ride and went to the police. Asked for a photo of him, and the photo having matched the face of the gunned-down cyclist, the mayor of his village – Ugine – went to tell his worried companion that he was dead.

An employee with the company Crezus which supplies equipment to nuclear power plants, he was on maternity leave: in June he had become the father of a little girl. His companion is the local chemist. He also has two children of 9 and 7 from a previous relationship.

His family are not releasing photographs of him and they are not speaking to the media.

His funeral will be some day next week: first his body must undergo an autopsy like those of the other victims.

Ugine, with a population of approx 7,000 lies 20 kms (12 miles) above Lake Annecy.

Believe me, this is a most beautiful and tranquil area of France: I love it.

Up-date:

This is a remark from a French person. It shows that there is doubt here too about the Chevaline killings.

Un troublant point commun existe effectivement entre deux des victimes, le conducteur de la BMW et le cycliste : en effet, Saad al Hilli a des liens avec un laboratoire top secret nucléaire britannique (The Rutherford Appleton research) révèle le Mirror, et Sylvain Mollier travaillait lui aussi pour l’industrie nucléaire… Quant à l’autre cycliste, un ancien de la RAF… Bizarre, Bizarre.

Up-date: Monday,September 10.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud has said that 4-year-old Zeena Al-Hilli could tell them nothing as she’d seen nothing. My theory is that she’d been lying sleeping in the rear foot-well of the BMW all the time.

UPDATE:  TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11

There is a second ‘witness’now – or rather someone who came upon the killing immediately after the RAF man had done so.

He is being identified as Philippe D. He is 41.

He is now telling the French media that he and two friends drove up that mountain road meaning to spend the night camping in the area.

At around 4 p.m. that Wednesday, they came across the RAF man who was descending the road on his bike. He describes him as perturbed and in a panic. The RAF man tried to tell him and his two friends that he had come across bodies inside and outside a car. He spoke haltingly in French. The three could not make out whether he had tried to summons assistance on his mobile (cell phone) but there was no signal or whether he did not have a mobile phone.

The three went back up the road with the RAF man and having seen what there was to see, Philippe D. drove back down to where he could get a signal for his mobile. He then summoned assistance. Within minutes the gendarmerie arrived.

Philippe D. told the French media that he went up to the little girl lying outside the car.

“We called her. I said a few words in English to her because I’d seen that the car had British registration, but she did not reply. I touched her hand, but there was no response.  For me, she was dead.”

He also spoke of the terrible silence on the spot.

And of how frightened they were because they thought that the killers or killer might still be around.

Philippe D. and his two friends, along with the RAF man, were then taken to gendarmerie headquarters where they were questioned. They have since been questioned again. They were also taken to the spot to re-enact their movements.

I would say that the RAF man is indeed an innocent bystander.

I wish to add something about the gendarmerie: what it is for example.

In France we have a national police force: the police. We also have gendarmes.

The police fall under the Ministry of Interior. Gendarmes fall under the Ministry of Defense (Defence).

Gendarmes, like soldiers, remain in uniform and live in a barrack and they hold military ranks like soldiers.

They keep law and order in the countryside and in towns (communes) of fewer than 20,000 inhabitants.

It was therefore the local gendarmerie which replied to Philippe D’s telephone call.

Now this is odd:  Normally the gendarmerie hands over an investigation to the police.  In this case they would have handed the investigation over to the police of the nearest big town – Annecy or Grenoble or even Lyon (Lyons).

But in this case they did not.

In other words, the case is being investigated by the Ministry of Defense and not the Ministry of Interior.  Secrecy is thus ensured.

 

 UPDATE :  Tuesday at 20.40.

This is the kind of gun that was used.

Please note: this is not the murder weapon but it is the kind of gun that was used. And it is official.

It is a Czech-made CZ50 7.65 mm, 8 rounds magazine capacity gun.

The CZ50 was manufactured in the 1940s and manufacture stopped in 1983. It was used by the Czech police, but considered too light for the Czech army.

You can buy it for about $100 these days.

The CZ50 used in this shooting was an ‘old’ model.

Will a sophisticated, modern and deadly secret service use such a gun? I do not think so.  I think we are dealing here with a local nut case.

UPDATE ::  Wednesday September 12 at 21.28 Paris Time :

The dark green 4×4 the RAF guy apparently saw was one of the vehicles used by the National Office of Forests: l’Office national des Forets.

Another ‘witness’ is being quoted.  It’s a woman and her name is Catherine Jeanin. She is the wife of farmer Jeanin who has 70 cows. Their farm is further up (Col de Cherel) from where the Al-Hilli’s died.

She is being quoted as saying: “My husband saw only a motorcycle.  It came by several times. The rider even stopped to allow the cows to cross the road. He did not look like he was in a hurry.”

 

UPDATE : Sept 13 at 11.53 a.m.

The RAF guy is now back in the United Kingdom.

An unidentified police source are telling the French media that the police are concentrating on the Al-Hilli family members.

He said: ” Even though he denies it, we now know that there existed a serious conflict over inheritance between the two brothers.”

 

The police are even studying the DVDs of the two girls, found in the BMW.

 UPDATE :  FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 21 :

After the visit of French investigators (in this case from the gendarmerie as the national police have not taken over the case) to London to investigate the murder of the Al-Hilli family and Frenchman Sylvian Mollier, it is now the turn of some English investigators to be in France.

The French are always tight-lipped when they are investigating a crime (theft, murder, infanticide, patricide whatever) and with this case they are no different. They may even be somewhat less prepared to give out information this time. They are telling us naught about their investigation, so we are really not any wiser than we were say 48 hours after the shooting. We do not know who they are questioning, if anyone, just as we do not know whether they have any clues as to why this Iraqi-born family had been gunned down.

Therefore, I wonder if it has come to them that last summer (2011) there was a similar murder here in France. A murder which is yet unsolved and which the media no longer mentions.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2011, just after 2 a.m. the body of a young Belgian man, Xavier Baligant, 29, divorced and the father of two sons aged 4 and 6, were found by a patrolling gendarme outside the toilets in a resting area off the A31 highway. His car was parked close by and on the rear seat of the vehicle lay the two boys: they were fast asleep.  Baligant and his two sons had been spending a vacation at a camping site some 600 kilometers south and were on their way back home to Belgium.

Xavier Baligant

 

(The A31 highway is in eastern France close to the village of Colombey-les-Belles with a population of 1283. Some 450 kilometers south (5 hours drive) is the village of Chevaline. Both villages are close to the German and Swiss frontiers.)

An autopsy showed that Mr. Baligant had four bullets in him: one bullet had been fired into the back of his head.

Today, some 14 months later, this is a murder which remains unsolved.

What the police could establish was that the firearm used in this assassination was a Swiss-made Schmidt Rubin K 31. This is a firearm manufactured for the Swiss Army between 1933 and up to 1957.  It has a 6-round magazine with a 7.55 mm caliber bullet, weighs 4 kilos and has a sight up to 1500 meters. It is therefore perfect for sniper use.

A Swiss Schmidt Rubin

At the time of the shooting, 24 truckers were sleeping in their trucks parked in the resting area, but not one of them had heard firing. A Schmidt Rubin  K 31 can be fitted with a silencer.

 

(What is interesting  is that the Swiss are the world’s most armed people. Despite that the Swiss have not been in battle since 1847 when the country’s catholic and protestant cantons had a go at each other, the Swiss retain compulsory military service for males. Initial training on reaching adulthood at 18 is 22 weeks which is followed by regular additional training as a reservist until the age of 50. A man is given his weapon though for life: he takes it home with him, keeps it at home, and even keeps it once he has turned 50 and is no longer on the reservist list.)

The Schmidt Rubin K 31’s manufacturers say that a total of 700,000 of this firearm were made.

(I suppose the Swiss army does have records of past service men and which firearms they had been issued. It would therefore be possible that the Swiss can, if need be, find out which of those firearms are still in the possession of their original owners. However, men do die and family members might well sell the firearms. Indeed, the Schmidt Rubin K 31 is being sold on the Web for from $200 each. I have come across websites where firearm enthusiasts speak so lovingly of this particular deadly weapon that one would say they are speaking of some naked dame doing a pole dance.)

The Al-Hillis were shot with a 7.65 mm caliber firearm, according to the gendarmerie. First to name the make of the firearm was Reuters: it said it was a Beretta. Next, it was said that it was a Czech-manufactured CZ50 7.65 mm firearm. Other reports say it was a 7.65 mm Luger.

The Czech one can be fitted with a silencer, but as I am not a gun enthusiast, I do not know about the Beretta and the Luger.  The main witness, ex-RAF man Brett Martin, did not however say anything about having heard gunfire, so it is likely that the Al-Hilli killer had used a silencer.

There are other similarities between the Al-Hilli shooting and that of the Baligant shooting.

Both shootings took place in eastern France close to the Swiss and German frontiers. Both took place in an isolated place. The victims had been shot in the body and in the head: in the Baligant shooting, the gendarmerie said that the shot to the head had been the final shot. In both shootings there were children present but they were unharmed. (Of course in the Al-Hilli case a child was shot, but this could be because she had seen the killer and had to be killed.) There was no theft involved in the Baligant shooting and also not in the Al-Hilli shooting.

Could we therefore have a case here of a summer vacation killer? He lives and works either in Switzerland or Germany, lovingly cares for his deadly weapon all fall (autumn) and winter, and then when spring comes he plans his next summer vacation killing? Then, once the killing’s been done, he, content, drives back home, the open Schengen frontier having caused him no problem.

 Update: Saturday, September 22.

French and British police are now to work in tandem on this investigation. (In the case of France it will be the Gendarmerie). ‘In tandem’ is indeed the correct description because at an interrogation both forces will be present.

The decision was taken to ‘speed up’ the case: until now each time a British investigator wanted to see a French document and vice versa a request had to be made by the Ministry of Justice to the Ministry of Justice of the other side. From now on this will not be necessary.

I also wish to recommend that you read under Comments the comment left by Zak Martin, renowned Psychic and Psychological Profiler.

 UPDATE, MONDAY – SEPTEMBER 24

That the French and the British have pooled their investigations is unprecedented. This did not even happen with the 1997 death of Princess Diana and her lover, Dodi Al Fayed. In that case the French allowed the British to view their files, but it were the French only who investigated on French soil.

I can add that it is indeed bizarre that the French should pool with another nation on what is up to the time of me writing this, still a criminal investigation and it is still a French prosecutor who would have to decide in an inquest whether he has sufficient evidence against the accused (if no accuse has been named, then it will be against X) to successfully prosecute.

The case can not be heard in a British Court of Law because the crime was not committed on British soil. The fact that three of the victims were British (the deceased Mr. and Mrs. Al-Hilli and their wounded 7-year-old daughter) would allow the British to hold an inquest in Britain. However, they would have no jurisdiction to prosecute the killer/killers. Even if he/she/they were British, the British would have to hand him/her/them over to the French to stand trial here in France and to be judged here and to serve the pronounced sentence here.

French law is painstakingly slow, so this case won’t be heard in a court for two or three or even four years.

 

 Update :  Sunday,September 30

The story going around media circles is that there were several killers.  The word ‘gang’ is even being used.

The only detail given so far about the shooting was that the same gun killed the four adults and shot the 7-year-old Zainab in the shoulder.

Now, however, it is being said that several guns could have been used, all, though of the same make, the killers having stood around the car, firing.

The fact that the each adult had two bullets in the head points to the killers having been professionals either from an organization (this includes an army or secret service) or a criminal gang.

Shooting someone twice in the head is known as a ‘double tap’, and it is not only a modus operandi of gangsters and professional political assassins, but police and soldiers worldwide are also taught this technique.

For example, it was what the U.S. Navy Seals did when they burst in on Bin Laden. 

 

Update : Friday, October 5, One month to the day:

Annecy Prosecutor Eric Maillaud has broken his silence to tell journalists that one month after the shooting of Saad Al-Hilli, his wife Iqbal, his mother-in-law Suhaila al-Allaf and Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, and the attempted killing of the Al-Hilli’s elder daughter Zainab, 7,  the killing remains a mystery.

In reply to the question posed by the privately-owned TV network, TF1, “what can you tell us about the investigation?”, he replied: “Not much. This does not mean that the investigation is not progressing.”

He continued to say that the two investigating teams – French and British – have the task of constructing the biographies of those who died.  It is a task which will take time.

“When we know who wanted to eliminate an entire family, then we will not be far from finding the one who committed this crime,” he said.

He added that the three leads – the inheritance quarrel between the Al-Hilli brothers, Al-Hilli’s profession, and Iraq, Al-Hilli’s country of origin – are still being pursued.

If the inheritance quarrel received more attention initially than the other two leads, he said, it was only because it appeared a more obvious reason for wanting the family dead. The investigators do however now know that it will take months to unravel the complexity of the Al-Hilli inheritance quarrel.

The investigators have though not ruled out the possibility that the shooting was the work of a mad killer.

About the kind of firearm used, Maillaud pointed out that he never said what kind it was and won’t do so either and reports that it was a Skorpion manufactured in the Balkans is sheer speculation.

He also dismissed media speculation that two bullets to the head is the signature of a professional killer. He said that a professional killer would not have needed to fire as many bullets as had been fired.

He told Maud Vallereau of Metrofrance (a free newspaper) that a hundred investigators from France and Britain are reconstituting the lives of the victims “minute by minute”. They are going through masses of documents in several languages. He said: “These are from ‘happy Christmas’ cards to complex papers that concern the professional life of Mr. Al-Hilli. We must decide what is important without really knowing what we are looking for.”

According to Metrofrance, Maillaud has said that they are still trying to set up contacts in Iraq to investigate there, but that Iraq is not their major concern currently.

Metrofrance furthermore reports that a source ‘close to the investigation’ has told them that the investigation is focussing on Zaid, brother of Saad.

They quote the source as saying: “He is denying a conflict with Saad which seems unlikely because there is indeed an inheritance problem which involves several million. “

Speaking of the inheritance, Maillaud told Metrofrance: “We are trying to reconstitute what the father wanted exactly and this is not simple.”

The investigators, he said, will have to dig into the inheritance issue to find who in the family had an interest to kill one of the brothers, or perhaps both of them. He thought that if the reason for the killing was indeed the inheritance, then the killer had not succeeded, because the two Al-Hilli daughters are the ones who will now inherit what their late father had inherited from his father.

The two are still being cared for by Social Services and remain under police protection. Zainab’s health has improved and, according to Metrofrance, she could be questioned next week.

Metrofrance also reports that Maillaud may tomorrow appeal for anyone with knowledge of the killing to contact either the French or British investigators.

If you understand French you will see on the chart below that there were no bullets fired at the body of the car only at its windows.

Timeline and other details

 

 

Update: Sunday, October 14, 2012

There is much frustration because both the French and British investigators are not very talkative: In fact, they are not telling us anything about their investigation.

“We need to match up or add to the information we have,” Lieutenant Colonel Vinnemann one of the investigators from the Gendarmerie, told journalists a week or so ago to explain the silence.

As a result journalists are seeking out every possible source and Mayor of Chevaline, Didier Berthollet, has expressed some degree of discontent over the probing by saying to French journalists that their British colleagues have not stopped phoning him for information. The British journalists, he said, wanted to know whether it was Al-Qaida or even the ‘Irish’ who have wiped out the family. He continued that he had no contact with the gendarmes and that his only contact with the criminal police was immediately after the slaying when a police officer asked him for a map of the village.

It is worth pointing out that in the first hours after the shooting more maps had to be taken out and studied to establish whether the lieu of the crime fell in the community of Chevaline or Doussard.  Chevaline is 2 kms (1.2 miles) south of Doussard. Now, as we know, it falls within the community of Chevaline.

It is however Prosecutor Eric Maillaud based in Annecy who is being blamed for the investigators’ silence.

The poor chap is however quite innocent as he is very much under the orders of the investigators – in this case the Gendarmerie. Later on, yes, he will be the ‘boss man’ but right now he is not and perhaps he is as frustrated as the journalists and all of us who are interested in this case.

French justice is complicated, so I will try to explain how it works here in France.

A crime is investigated by a team. If the crime has been committed in a town (village etc.) of fewer than 20,000 souls, or out in the countryside, it is the Gendarmerie Nationale which will investigate.   Otherwise it will be the Police Nationale.  The Gendarmerie falls under the Ministry of Defence (Defense), whereas the National Police falls under the Ministry of Interior. Gendarmes, nicknamed the maréchaussée, therefore always investigate in uniform, live in barracks, and hold military ranks.  Other than policing small communities and the country they also carry out criminal investigations although they have to do so under judiciary supervision; guard airports, ports; see to the security in France’s courts; guard visiting dignities and royalty, and our president. At the head of the Gendarmerie is a director-general who is appointed by the Council of Ministers: His rank is that of General – Général d’Armée.

As the Al-Hillis were murdered in a community of fewer than 20,000 souls – 150 people live there – the investigation was for the gendarmes.

The Gendarmerie hierarchy of this case looks like this:

#1 : Colonel Bertrand François head of the Upper Savoy gendarmerie – Haute Savoie. (Annecy falls in Upper Savoy.)

#2 : Lieutenant Colonel Benoît Vinnemann, head of the local Annecy gendarmerie.

Under them they have according to various reports anything from 25 to 150 gendarmes. I would say that 25 is a more realistic number.

However, François and Vinnemann will have to work under judiciary supervision …

Therefore, the two will report the findings of their investigators to an examining magistrate –  juge d’instruction.

In this case there are two examining magistrates: Michel Mollin and Christine de Curraize.

The two were appointed by Prosecutor of Annecy, Eric Maillaud, and they will report the findings of François and Vinnemann to him.

Maillaud had, in fact, opened two judicial enquiries – informations judiciaries.  One is for ‘assassination’ and the other for ‘attempted assassination’.  To complicate matters further I will tell you that in France ‘assassination’ means ‘premeditated murder’ where as murder – meurtre – is the killing of someone without premeditation.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud’s role is therefore to listen to what Mollin and de Curraize reports to him, which they, in turn, had learned (learnt) from François and Vinnemann. Once, Maillaud has gathered whatever information there is to gather he is to decide whether he has enough evidence to take the case to court, in other words to prosecute the killer/killers successfully.

Then, in court, a chief prosecution counsel – avocat general – assisted by a junior counsel will argue the state’s case.  A judge who would be addressed as Mr. President – Monsieur le président – will preside over the court and two magistrates will assist him.

So, you will gather that Maillaud’s role at the moment is to listen and not to upset the apple cart by telling the world what he is being told by Mollin and de Curraize.

Colnel in the Gendarmerie

 

 

 

 

 Update: Wednesday, October 17, 2012:

Yesterday (Tuesday, Oct 16, 2012) at 9 a.m. a leading Corsican advocate, ANTOINE SOLLACARO, 53, was shot dead in a street in central Ajaccio.

As he did every morning he had pulled in at a service station to buy a newspaper, when, as he got back into his Porsche, two killers on a motorbike opened fired on him.

They fired 9 times with a .45 caliber pistol, known in France as a 11.43 mm.

Two of those shots were to his head.

The Mediterranean island of Corsica has been waging a war of terror against France for independence for very many years – 40 at least if not 50. This means that there are regular assassinations, most of them public ones.

Those assassins are professionals and note that they shot this man in the head – twice. Professional killers shoot in the head – twice.

 

 

 

 

Marilyn Z. Tomlins

2,127 Responses

9-8-2012 at 15:19:13

Your Comments

I agree – not a lot being said about Sylvain the cyclist. Was he in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or were the Al Hilli family in the wrong place at the wrong time??? Has anyone looked at this case from another angle? Perhaps the Al-Hili family witnessed the brutal murder of the cyclist and then they were silenced. The prosecutor, Eric Maillaud, has stated in his latest interview that he cannot ascertain the chronology of events. For all we know, the police could be investigating this case the wrong way round.
I think this case is so gripping because it happened is such a beautiful and tranquil area and everyone wants to believe that it must be a professional job. Personally, I think it is far too messy to be the work of a pro. (especially the vicious attack on the older daughter). Hopefully she will recover and be able to shed light on what took place that afternoon.

9-8-2012 at 16:20:56

Marilyn, the plot thickens even more………………

9-8-2012 at 19:13:50

Yes, it is thickening ….

9-8-2012 at 19:14:41

Thank you Marie for your input. I wonder if we will ever know what happened there that day.

9-8-2012 at 21:05:42

…. I agree with you for four reasons: firstly, if the killer/s were targeting the family they would have known there was a fourth child; 2; presumably they ran out of bullets…. If they were planning to kill a family they would have carried more bullets; 3; the father wouldn’t have had time to start to reverse; 4; the youngest child wouldn’t have had time to get under her mothers legs without being noticed. If the family were genuinely on holiday it would have been difficult for a killer to predict their movements enough to ambush them, whereas the cyclist was a local man who regularly went riding, presumably on the same route… I think therefore that the cyclist was targeted, or else the attack was completely random.

9-9-2012 at 10:47:30

Consider this scenario . . .

Saad al Hilli worked at the internationally-renowned Rutherford Appleton research centre in the 1980s and was, until his death, working at the Science and Technology Facilities Council where, in May, one of its former physicists Dr Adlene Hicheur was jailed for five years for plotting al Qaeda attacks.

Sylvain Mollier was an employee with the company Crezus that supplies equipment to nuclear power plants.

Let’s suppose that:

(1) The common nuclear background, and money flowing to suppliers of useful nuclear/arms related information, tied them together (al Hilli had holidayed in the region before) and that they had arranged to meet on this quiet stretch of road for purposes of exchanging data that was too risky to send electronically.

(2) The Mossad had long been interested in Saad al Hilli because of possible links to Iran: al Hilli is a Shiite (his family suffered under Sadam Hussein, a Sunni) as is Iran’s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

(3) The Mossad organised a hit on the two men after monitoring their communications. Sylvain Mollier was killed first and Saad al Hilli, observing this, tried desperately to turn his car around but to no avail.

Did either of these men appear to have financial resources that could not be legally unaccounted for?

9-9-2012 at 11:45:59

Cherry, What you are saying is indeed interesting. It’s a scenario I had not thought of. Strange that both men are involved with scientific and nuclear technology. Is it just a coincidence?

9-9-2012 at 12:04:01

Your Comments Cherry is spot on I believe–THE FOREST LAYBY WAS AN ARRANGED MEETING POINT,THE OCUPANTS OF THE CAR HAD A MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY TO REVERSE THE CAR AND THE OLDER GIRL ESCAPED OUT SIDE ONLY TO BE GRABBED THEN SHOT.

9-9-2012 at 15:47:41

All your comments make interesting reading.

On reflection it would make more sense that the cyclist Sylvain Mollier was the intended victim.

If this is correct, it could be the reason so little has been reported about him. When espionage and the like are involved who knows what is happening. If it is, the Secret Service departments will be involved and it is more than likely that they would be behind any suppression of news.

9-9-2012 at 16:09:34
9-9-2012 at 16:16:20

In re-posting the whole original post on my own blog, I appear to have created the comment showing the original blog link, for which I apologise.

Sorry

Chris Sterry

9-9-2012 at 18:11:32

Your Comments

Rosie, we are thinking along the same lines. I also wonder if there could be a possible drug connection with Sylvain because his partner is the local chemist?

Cherry and C Forest, I honestly cannot imagine that if Saad Al Hilli had arranged a rendezvous with Sylvain, he would involve his entire family.

The savagery of this attack appears either drug related or a random nutcase.

9-9-2012 at 19:34:50

I believe you have remarked some very interesting points , appreciate it for the post.

9-9-2012 at 20:18:35

Marie is spot on with this. I don’t think there was some nuclear/Mossad conspiracy. It’s possible the two had some connection, but I have serious difficulty believing it was a sinister one. Al-Hilli would never have brought his wife and children to a meeting like that.

I do think Mollier was the target. If the family was the mark, then yes, these two dimwits should have known how many members they had to eliminate. They clearly didn’t. Also…they shot the family members 2 or 3 times. But Mollier…they shot him 5 times. That was brutal overkill. They didn’t just want him dead, they wanted him “visually dead”. I would even bet money they took photos to prove it was done.

Marie, I’m also very glad you pointed out that this was not a professional job. It was a bloody mess. I’m getting really tired of the media calling this a “professional assassination”. They used 25 shots to put down 4 people and left 2 survivors. Wasting at least 10 bullets, by the way. Nobody knows where those went. The shell casings are there, but what did these clowns shoot at? The tires? And pistol-whipping a target? What is that?

A “real pro” can put down a mark with one shot. Simple as that. This is the sloppiest thing I’ve ever seen. Then again, maybe these guys are geniuses. I mean…after all, nobody’s really looking into Mollier, are they?

9-9-2012 at 21:10:53

Marie, I do not think it is drug related. As you say, Saad Al Hilli would not have taken his family with him.

As for the killer being a nutcase, I can’t quite see that. We do not have the kind of mass killing here in France that happens in the States.But, of course, those could be famous last words.

The Chevaline prosecutor has said that he won’t be giving out any further information. This smells of ‘secret service’ to me.

I have a feeling that, just like in the death of Princess Diana and Dodi Al Fayed we will be given a story but not everyone will believe it. We might therefore never know what really happened last Wednesday in this beautiful spot in France.

I

9-9-2012 at 21:16:30

Beth, we are not being told what the police (French and British) are doing or what they have discovered so far.

The French are always secretive, but the English are usually very open and cooperative towards the media.

Anyway, I will blog tomorrow (Monday) on the latest from the French side.

9-9-2012 at 21:19:11

Terry, it’s OK. Not to worry.

9-9-2012 at 21:36:17

Pretty interesting read!

What kind of baffles me is that it would have taken Ugine-based Sylvain Mollier already 22 km (on a “normal” bike – where did you get that and what does that mean?) just to get to the point where the Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré starts and then he still had enough power left to take over a cycling Ex-RAF pilot not to mention his way home, another 22 km.

The fact that there was family involved pretty much speaks against al-Hilli as the or one of the targets. And it speaks against a meeting point theory with Mollier.

My best guess is still Mollier was the target or the witness was the target and the killers mistook Mollier for the Ex-RAF pilot. The fact that Mollier was shot five time doesn’t matter much to me: contrary to the al-Hillis expect for Zainab he was a moving target.

9-9-2012 at 21:45:05

P.S. to my own post of now:

I finally got it right on Sylvain Mollier. Being even Ugine cycling club member and therefore by my account on a race bike and not at all on a normal bike he should have been able to finish a 50 km round trip.

9-9-2012 at 22:13:27

Hi All,

I’ve found all your observations very astute and interesting to read – particularly the point that al Hilli could not and would not have brought his whole family to a possibly dangerous rendezvous. However, it cannot be ruled out, given that both men were involved in nuclear and state-secretive work.

I would like to add my own questions which I find perplexing:
where was the older girl when the former RAF guy discovered her then tended to her? was she outside the car? then presumably one of the doors were open…. but surely if the door was open the 4 year old might have been discoverable? but we are told the French police would not open the doors for fear of contaminating the evidence. Yet the RAF guy must have opened the door already to turn off the ignition? and if the same RAF guy was so careful might he not have discovered the 4 year old first?

At any rate, the idea is highly implausible – that a 4 year old girl, frightened though the poor thing must have been, would not have strayed from under the skirt of a dead woman for 8 hours, even through the onset of darkness and midnight.

And who is the Swedish woman?

When I hear that this investigation ‘is going to be long and complex’, I fear that we may never know the truth….
But still it will be good to hear the older girl’s account, and much more than that, to hear of her complete recovery.

9-9-2012 at 22:33:57

bloody obvious really isn’t it? the cyclist was there to meet the head of the family to sell nuclear components to an Iranian on a motor cycle, when Mossad turned up in a 4x with a couple of machine pistols and God on there side.

9-9-2012 at 22:43:23

btw, a point I did mean to make earlier:
Beth, you ask about whether some of the remaining bullets were aimed at tyres. One of the photos of the car in the aftermath does seem to indicate a flat rear tyre, passenger side. Perhaps the car was halted by blowing out it’s tyres?

9-9-2012 at 23:20:04

@ Paul:

No, all doors were closed and stayed closed for another 8 hours till they found Zeena. Meaning in my opinion Zainab was outside the car when Mr al-Hilli started the car, pushed in the rear gear to get away (therefore possibly leaving his older daughter on the spot) and was stopped by the mountain bank/the killers’ shot into the passenger side’s rear tyre/the killers shooting him. The doors may block automatically when you start the engine. The engine kept running and was only being switched off when the Ex-RAF pilot broke the drivers’ side window to reach in.

I still don’t get it if he first found Zainab and Sylvain Mollier, then called the police and then discovered the three dead persons in the car while cutting the engine (which would sound logical to me) or if he really discovered the dead bodies in the car (and overlooked Zeena) first when stopping the engine and then called police (which I read, would not make sense to me and would have caused even more threat to Zainab’s life).

I still don’t understand why the killers, if Mollier was an inncocent bystander, did not try to kill the Ex-RAF pilot who had seen them on their way to the crime scene and claims to have seen them on their way back.

Okay, they had run out of amunition but did not even attempt to silence the only living witness as they must have presumed Zainab was dead?

By all accounts it could have well been the witness himself who shot all of them given no one else has seen or heard anything except for maybe Zainab.

9-10-2012 at 00:15:34

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2012/9/6/12538/19248
a website i came across when i first heard this story and found no information regarding the cyclist. once finding out where he worked at it seemed more clear that this was not just a random shooting or a robbery gone wrong. It doesnt even seem like anything was taken if it was a robbery to begin with. if it was a robbery then the 4 year old would have been noticed and the older child wouldnt have survived. also it does seem like cyclist was the intended target seeing how he was shot 5 times while the family was only shot twice. keep your eyes and ears open for the next couple of days as i can see some more cover up news coming our way soon.

9-10-2012 at 05:58:48

Paul, the 7-year-old was lying in front of the car, to the right. The cyclist was also lying in front of the car, but to the left.

What I wrote initially about the killing is here:

http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/150-inhabitants-300-cows-and-now-british-murder-victims-in-a-place-named-chevaline/

The Swedish woman is apparently Mrs. Al-Hilli’s mother. She’s Iraqi too but has a Swedish passport as the family has lived in Sweden for many years.

9-10-2012 at 07:53:34

Another correction:

From carefully watching the aerial shot of the BMW, sorry, I was wrong about the passenger side’s rear tyre being shot at. I now think it’s just stuck in the mud deep enough to appear flat.

9-10-2012 at 10:21:23

Great. Thanks, Alexander.

9-10-2012 at 10:40:45

Your Comments A local builder saw the al-Hillí’s car in the village and he thinks it’s bizarre that the family – “British tourists” – went up to that little car park in the woods.
See this article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9532922/France-shooting-al-Hilli-family-neighbours-evacuated-amid-bomb-fears.html
This suggests it was indeed an arranged meeting point.

9-10-2012 at 15:37:31

It was announced today that only one firearm was used:
DAILY MAIL–SEPT 10, 2012

A single weapon was used to carry out the Alpine massacre in which four people including a British couple were gunned down in cold blood, it emerged today.
The extraordinary revelation reinforces a theory that a highly-trained professional contract killer was behind the slaughter.
Detailed ballistic analysis of 25 spent cartridges found at the scene close to Lake Annecy, in eastern France, has shown they all came from one 7.65mm automatic pistol.
———————-
A diagram of the accident site (the car is British-registered, so it’s a right-hand drive) is on http://scotlandyard.blogspot.com/2012/09/saad-al-hilli-case-vehicle-diagram.html.

I think the 7-year old daughter was asked by her father, Saad al Hilli, to vacate the front seat so the cyclist Sylvain Mollier could sit there and they could talk. She may well have closed the door as she got out, without thinking. The cyclist was lying in front of the car on the right, so perhaps he never got in the car. If he did there’d be DNA and other evidence.

Al Hilli’s family was with him because that was his cover: going on a family holiday.

9-10-2012 at 15:44:57

Whatever it was, it’s definitely something different than what has been brought by the media. I always thought that there was something strange about the French and even the British cycler. If there were prof hitmen at that spot and the british family was the target, no one would survive for sure. Very strange that the Britton says that he was overtaken a few minutes earlier by Mollier, but never mentioned about the 30 sec. of intense gunfire! Or they kept big parts of his statement away, or his story isnt right at all.. Also a smart move to say that he will kept secret and was placed in a safehouse.
One thing is very clear to me, the british family couldnt be the main target, or they were very disturbed by the Frensh cycler and they spend the last bullets on him? Anyway, why did the Britton mentioned about the green 4×4 and the motorcycle, but nothing (at least not through media) about the shots that has been heard by whitnesses (30 sec of intense gunfire?). The thrills are getting through my bones if I think about those poor kids,for them, it doesnt matter who did it, they lost their family in front of their eyes…

9-10-2012 at 16:09:51

Cherry, you may have something here: Al-Hilli asked his daughter if she could let Sylvain sit there for a moment.

9-10-2012 at 16:11:41

It has been confirmed that there was only one killer:

DAILY MAIL–SEPT 10, 2012

A single weapon was used to carry out the Alpine massacre in which four people including a British couple were gunned down in cold blood, it emerged today.
The extraordinary revelation reinforces a theory that a highly-trained professional contract killer was behind the slaughter.
Detailed ballistic analysis of 25 spent cartridges found at the scene close to Lake Annecy, in eastern France, has shown they all came from one 7.65mm automatic pistol.

——————

A diagram of the murder site (http://scotlandyard.blogspot.com/2012/09/saad-al-hilli-case-vehicle-diagram.html) shows Saad al Hilli in the front right seat: it was, after all, a British-registered car. The front left seat is empty: the 7-year old is lying to the front left of the car and the cyclist Sylvain Mollier is lying to the front right.

I expect that the cyclist was talking to Al Hilli through the driver’s window, and al Hilli asked his daughter to get out so he could talk to Sylvain in the car. The little girl complies and closes the door without thinking. Sylvain is starts moving towards the front of the car when all hell breaks loose.

It’s part of al Hilli’s cover to have his family with him, not anticipating any danger.

9-10-2012 at 16:44:18

It was a Beretta 7/65 m.m. which has a .25 caliber (quite small) bullet.

Who uses them?

MI5
MI6
Deutch BND
France’s SDECE (secret services operating international and not on French territory)
Israel’s Mossad.

9-10-2012 at 17:13:15

Let’s suppose Sylvain Mollier wants to sell scientific information obtained in the course of his work. It might even be some top-secret development being done for Israel. After all, the French are being very reticent about Sylvain and his employers, aren’t they?

Iran’s interested, very interested, but they need verification that they’re buying the real thing and that it’s worth every bit of the asking price. Who better to send than a top-flight scientific sympathizer called Saad al Hilli?

Unfortunately, neither man knows that their communications have been intercepted.

Al Hilli arrives really early for the meeting, but a single Mossad hit man would come even earlier and hide himself and his bike in the forest to await the arrival of his targets.

9-10-2012 at 17:17:23

I put all the locations in to google maps and the shootings took place just about halfway between where the cyclist lived in Ugine and the campsite at Saint Jorioz. Looks like they had a (not so) secret meeting arranged…

9-10-2012 at 18:52:04

Yes, all within cycling distance so to speak.

9-10-2012 at 19:08:44

I am not at all sure what to make of this. Some loose ends:

According to his neighbour, Saad al Hilli had a personal matter he was concerned about, the neighbour told the police that he had been told about this by him, and he has told the police but they have not interviewed him, yet, or asked him what it was.

Other reports say that al Hilli had documents he was worried about and had hidden in the house. His neighbour was keeping an eye for the house for him while they were away. Maybe a business deal had gone wrong and they went to France to keep their heads down.

He was officially a consultant, not an employee, at a small satellite company locally and earned £8000 ($12000) in fees ffor this in the last year. Not enough to buy a £1m house in Surrey. Apparently he and his brother jointly owned a consultancy company called SH Tech unti ltwo years ago when he replaced him with his wife Iqbal. Why? To keep some deal in the family?

Zaid, Saad’s brother now lives in a smaller house worth around £250,000 not far away with his son. Zaad’s wife was English and died not long ago from cancer. Seems to have been a cooling off in the last two years, with rumours of a dispute over an inheritance and other land owned in Iraq.

So the al Hillis lived in a house whose cost would be well beyond their means on their posted tax accounts. Did they own it outright, if so where did the money come from?. There are reports of a fall out with his brother over an inheritance in Iraq. Also reports of further property in Iraq. Yet the family were supposed to be refugees?

Maybe their money comes from Iraq, maybe it was illegally obtained (eg via oil busting sanctions) which is why he was being watched by security services in the UK (because of family’s known contacts in Iraq.)So maybe there are clues in Iraq. Maybe some smuggling deal went wrong.

Then again look at his age and that of his wife – he was 50 and she was 47. They are said to have met in Dubai ten years ago and now have two small daughters both born after his wife turned 40. It is very unusual for Middle Eastern couples to marry so late, for the first time. Maybe there are other older relationships in the background which have caught up with him or her.

It was Iqbal’s mother in the car but the 4 year old told police she did not know her. Why not, her own Granny? Why had she come from Sweden and does she have more family there? The couple were supposed to have met in Dubai. Is this connected with the wife taking over as company secretary?

The clinical efficiency of the killing suggests a contract job and to me it seems as if the French man did indeed stumble upon it which is why he was killed more messily and with more bullets. Cycling is a popular pastime and there are lots of French out cycling long distances in the mountains at this time of year and some English ones too. is this anywhere near where the Tour de France went for example?.

Maybe when Saad’s car was blocked by another car and the assassin was on a motorbike. Maybe Saad pushed out his little girl and told her to run. Or maybe she was already outside the car when he was approached and he tried to get in to escape. Meanwhile the other little girl was hidden by her mother under her mothers skirt in the back.

Then she wandered back. One interpretation could be that the assassin shot all the others, then the little girl reappeared and as he ran to attack her, the cyclist appeared and he had to stop and shoot him too and then beat a hasty retreat. Moments later the English cyclist appeared.

They were all killed with a 7.65mm automatic pistol. This is apparently an old fashioned weapon and one no longer used by professional assassins. .

The English cyclist did not hear bullets or gun fire. If he was an army officer he would have been familiar with this which suggests a silencer was used or the sound was muffled by the thickly wooded gorge.

If Saad was going to a pre arranged meeting, why take his family though, I cannot figure that out.

9-10-2012 at 20:19:50

Hi Usignuolo, I think no one knows what to make of this. And I have a feeling that we will never know.

The 7.65 mm was a Beretta with a .25 bullet which is quite small for a bullet. Info I have received is that it is indeed still in use, as I said elsewhere here on the site,but will repeat for you here.

MI5, MI6, Deutch BND, France’s SDECE and Mossad use it.

The Beretta was fitted with a silencer which explains why the RAF man did not hear firing.

The Tour de France has certainly raced in that area. Each year it includes a climb in the Alps.

Thank you for your interesting comment.

9-10-2012 at 21:08:46

Marilyn.
Strange your mentioning Princess Diana. The other day I mentioned her in my blog, to make the point that the British secret services usually do their “black ops” in France, not on their own land. I am discussing the case of Al-Hilli in my blog, and I am glad to find here that women bloggers and readers, with their sixth sense, and love for details are making some very good remarks.
Some of your readers here suggest that Hilli would not bring along his family, if he was going to a secret meeting. I think you have to be an Iraqi to understand how his mind worked. He might have thought that taking the family along would be a good cover. I read somewhere this remark:
“Police chief Vinnemann said the family were dressed “smartly” and that none were wearing clothes suitable for a hike through rough terrain.”

I think this makes my point: The family dressed smartly as if they were going to a social calling.

9-10-2012 at 22:18:49

Usignuolo
You say ” he was 50 and she was 47. They are said to have met in Dubai ten years ago and now have two small daughters both born after his wife turned 40. It is very unusual for Middle Eastern couples to marry so late, for the first time”. Not anymore. It is very usual these days for girls and men to marry at the age of 30+. Personally, I know 2 girls who are nearing 40 and still unmarried, and 2 who married past 30. In fact we, in the Arab world, have now a problem of a large percentage of girls passing the average age of marriage (25 for educated city girls) , and of men abstaining from marriage. Time changes.
In the case of Hilli, it is not unusual: the wife lived in Sweden, finished college, worked in Dubai. She would not have been ready to marry before 35 at least.

9-10-2012 at 23:25:00

Hi Ishtar,

I went on to your blog, but could not understand a word of it, of course. It looks so interesting and I would have loved to have read what you wrote about this massacre and also about Princess Diana.

Where in the world are you? Baghdad? Or maybe Jordan because I saw a photo of Queen Rania.

I was also thinking that France was ‘chosen’ for this murder, because those who had killed Princess Diana and Dodi Al-Fayed got away with it. I have thought of blogging about it, but thought that I ought rather not.

I am a writer and I’ve written a book about the death of Princess Diana and Dodi Al-Fayed for which I am seeking publication. I am sure that they were murdered …

I feel that we will never know who killed this family. There would have to be an inquest here in France, but what we will be told, may not be what had happened.

Thank you for your interesting comment.

9-10-2012 at 23:49:32

Marilyn.
My blog is in Arabic. It is a kind of investigative journalism. I am an Iraqi writer living in another Arab country, but not Jordan where. I am sure, I will not be welcomed because of what I write about their king and queen.
Ishtar is not my real name. It is the name of ancient goddess of war and love, imagine that: war=love? or love is a kind of war?

As to what I wrote about the Hilli massacre, I am still in the stage of reading everything about it, that is how I found your website. I think that the RAF is not just a witness. He is, perhaps, the hitman. Every thing he said was either wrong or incomprehensible.
You and your readers have clever arguments here. I can not understand how the French and British investigators, consider two suspicious cyclists on the scene as a passerby and a witness.

9-10-2012 at 23:57:46

Ishtar,

Yes, I googled you. What will we do without google? But then google is also dangerous.

I saw that Ishtar Enana is not your real name.

It is so interesting what you are saying about the RAF guy. Not for a moment did I think he could be the hitman.

I think the French, and the British, too know exactly what happened in Chevaline, but they are not saying, and will never say.

Best wishes to you.

9-11-2012 at 01:15:38

Marilyn, this is just fantistic!

Are you going to pay us all a small percentage of your profits from this next book-in-the-making?

9-11-2012 at 06:21:46

David Smith, You hope!

9-11-2012 at 08:09:28

Hi All,

Fascinating comments from everyone…The RAF cyclist was my first thought, as at least one of the likely killers – was his partner a Mossad operator who hid in the woods or left on a motorbike or even a bicycle? But how convenient for him (RAF) to arrive and become “the official witness” and untouchable “hero” and then disappear into a safe house. The dual life, living part-time in France, part-time in Britain, and as others have said, the habit of the British to do a lot of their “work” through the French, or at least in the French setting…all this makes his appearance on that road far too coincidental! Add to this that apparently he and Mollier (French cyclist) “happened” to know each other through their mutual cycling club, and my hair stands on end!

I keep feeling there was a kind of double-cross here. I was interested to learn that at their prior camp-site they (the al-Hilli family) were booked to stay a week, but left abruptly after 2 days. Also, that while there, Mr. Al-Hilli left the camp alone in his car on about 5 occasions in those 2 days to drive off without any apparent purchases or purpose, leaving the family behind. Then, the abrupt departure. It seems to me that he knew there was a problem, and was attending secret meetings in the surrounding area perhaps in an attempt to sort things out – with one final one arranged for the place where they were killed…What he may not have known was that a set-up had been arranged, and that those odd trips of his out of the camp-site were being watched and tracked the whole time?

I have also sensed that he may have been trying to take his family somewhere, for safety, given that they had picked up the older semi-mystery woman whom the youngest child seemed not to know. He was somewhat afraid of something, his neighbour indicated, before he left England, and I have this hunch he was actually taking all the women of his family out of Europe, perhaps back to Iraq or even – if the Shia connection is true, to Iran. He had frozen the inheritance from his father so that the brother could not get at it, so may have felt he could start life anew in a new location. Was he prepared to bolt from England, pick up mother-in-law, and deliver his family to what he thought might be safety in a new/old country?

So much here to think about…the motive of course of the brother, whose part of the will was being denied him by the murdered al-Hilli, is a powerful one, and he would have known enough about his brother’s possibly secret dealings in England to have been part of this “double-cross” which I have picked up….The brother did not need to arrange for the contract killings, but had only to pass certain information to certain people to ensure that his brother would be assassinated…

Like everyone else, I am at a loss to explain the two girls. Again, the double-cross may explain a certain lack of coordination, and points to this NOT being a contract killing by the brother to get a free hand at the father’s will, because the girls would be their father’s heirs, and some would be held in trust for them, etc. etc. They would have scoured the car for the 4-year-old, I think. Nor would the 7-year-old have been so brutalized and left for dead had there been an “uncle’s qualms” about harming the girls…The killer(s) were surprised that he had the girls with him, so he may have said he would come alone to the meeting, but then changed his mind, being in a hurry to get out of the country…

Can’t wait to see what everyone else has to say…like you Marilyn, I have been rather concerned that these are dangerous times to speculate in, or about…I agree about Diana, and this British-French tandem seems all too reminiscent of all that.

9-11-2012 at 08:42:59

Does anyone know how far off the main track this secluded, dead end carpark is? There were initial photos showing the police had blocked the road some good distance away. The RAF cyclist said he saw the car parked there while cycling on the road and “stopped to see if something was wrong.” What led him to think that? Did he see the dead cyclist or the injured girl? He also said he might not have heard gunshots as he was exerting himself.

If it’s a dead end carpark why would the French cyclist go there, as well as the family, unless people use the bushes for bathroom breaks, which might explain why the older girl was outside the car.

The RAF cyclist says he tended to the older girl, but didn’t realize there were still more victims, “until he broke the window to shut off the engine.”
Strange statement, if he saw a car with numerous bullet holes in the glass, and a dead bicyclist plus an injured young girl, you’d think he’d expect at least a dead driver inside even if he couldn’t clearly see him or her through crazed glass.

And if it was a single shooter (or even two) it is an accomplishment to shoot each of the three victims two times in the head through glass.
Are there any pro assassins in the discussion who could comment if that’s likely considering the caliber and distance and the angle to the glass.

Supposing the assassin(s) had the family under surveillance as their intended target. Would they not know there were three adults plus two children to be taken care of. It’s unlikely they’d “forget” the younger child just because she’s hidden.

There’s more interesting speculation at:
http://scotlandyard.blogspot.com/

9-11-2012 at 08:57:44

Very, very interesting…. Things went through my mind from the beginning..I’m convinced the French and British investigators know exactly what happened..I’m pretty sure, the Iraqi family wasn’t the main target at all. It has everything from a quick, dirty, fast execution. But when they were they would be the main target, no one would surive for sure. The weapon used has nothing to do with some link to some organization. The killer of killers ofcourse are well known of the fact, that the weapon used for this brutal assasination would be discovered without any problem by the investigators. So any link to some one or some country by that particular weapon they used is something to ignore, not very trustable at all. Maybe they used that ‘old’ weapon to get the investigators on a wrong track. I think the French and even the British cyclist ‘s attention in the media are so little, because one of those 2 were the actual targets. A very nice distraction could be the fact that the British cyclist has to remain unknown, because of his fear that he mentionted he probably saw the killers. We and the media are dependant of what news they provide and when they won’t answer because of the investigations.. it is all we have and more to speculate. One thing for sure, what is told to the media, is not what really happened. The story just rattles from all sides, obviously a lot has been kept silent. Mollier and al Hilli know eachother, I’m pretty sure about that. I just cannot put the British cyclist as the main witness, but when he was the hitman, the 7 year old girl ( old enough to testify) wouldnt be alive at all.. Therefor I really think Mollier was the main target, hit first with 7 bullets and the killer or killers finished their job fast by killing (what they thought) all the witnesses in the BMW (they werent aware of 5 people) they tried to kill the 7 year old child in some hurry and left her for dead. The fact the BMW was locked, is an automatic feature which most cars have, cant open from the outside ‘carjack’ security. Ever wondered why they never mentioned why the estate stood in that odd position with its engine on? The investigators found tire tracks for sure and they really know why the BMW ended up there, because every clue which could lead to the French cyclist was kept behind.

9-11-2012 at 09:24:00

Quoting Carol: “But how convenient for him (RAF) to arrive and become “the official witness” and untouchable “hero” and then disappear into a safe house. The dual life, living part-time in France, part-time in Britain, and as others have said, the habit of the British to do a lot of their “work” through the French, or at least in the French setting…all this makes his appearance on that road far too coincidental! Add to this that apparently he and Mollier (French cyclist) “happened” to know each other through their mutual cycling club, and my hair stands on end!”

It’s a clue! Remember the death of Gareth Williams GHCQ/MI6 in London under mysterious circumstances. He too was an avid cyclist. Wonder if the RAF dude knew him? What with the green movement and a bad world economy all our spies now tool around on bikes or motorbikes instead of in Aston Martins. Think it was the Iranians who blamed Mossad for slapping magnetic bombs on the cars of their nuclear scientists as they passed them on a motorbike.

9-11-2012 at 09:24:08

You all might read this article..
The British cyclist didn’t call the emergency services at all!
He had no Phone or signal, the British cyclist went done the hill to get help and got to the French car..

http://www.france24.com/en/20120911-france-chevaline-annecy-claygate-alps-murder-witness-like-scene-film-murder-al-hilli?ns_campaign=editorial&ns_source=RSS_public&ns_mchannel=RSS&ns_fee=0&ns_linkname=20120911_france_chevaline_annecy_claygate_alps_murder

9-11-2012 at 11:31:35

Cherry mentioned Dr. Adlène Hicheur in one of her comments, as having been working at some stage in the same Rutherford Appleton Laboratory , at which Hilli worked. But the exciting thing which Cherry did not mention is Hicheur’s connection to Annecy. What a dramatic coincidence. Pls. read this from Wikipedia
Adlène Hicheur
Born 1976
Setif, Algeria
Residence Geneva, Switzerland
Citizenship Algerian, French
Nationality France
Fields Particle Physics
Institutions European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN)
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory (RAL)
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
Alma mater Université de Lyon, Université de Savoie
Known for His accusation of terrorism while he was working as physicist at the Large Hadron Collider
Adlène Hicheur (born 1976)[1] is a particle physicist with dual Algerian and French citizenship.[2] After his master of theoretical physics in Lyon, he joined LAPP (Laboratoire d’Annecy le Vieux de Physique des Particules) to work on the BaBar experiment, located at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. His thesis, defended in 2003, was about the production of high energy Eta prime mesons in the decays of B mesons. After that he was a Postdoctorate in England at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, where he worked on the ATLAS experiment at LHC. He then joined the high energy physics department of École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) and works currently on the LHCb experiment.
Adlène Hicheur was arrested in France on October 8, 2009, after police allegedly intercepted emails between himself and Al-Qaida in Islamic Maghreb, an Algerian based terrorist organisation. Two weeks after his arrest, the Algerian media [3] compared Hicheur to Lotfi Raissi, who was first suspected of terrorism before being released without charges. An International Support Committee was organized by Adlene’s friends and colleagues[4] to support Adlene and to request a fair investigation.
General director of the National Police Frédéric Péchenard stated in November 2009 that Hicheur planned to attack a base of the National Defence in Annecy, which harbours the 27ème bataillon de chasseurs alpins, involved in Afghanistan.[5]

9-11-2012 at 11:54:21

Hi all
Look at this theory:
Considering my last comment, Hilli and the French cyclists were monitored. They were to meet in that car park. The British cyclist was following and coordinating with hidden hitman, perhaps the Peugeot driver with a military crew cut which one witness saw later coming down the hill and described as driving madly. The RAF guy then went to the crime scene to make sure every one is dead.
I can imagine that nobody expected that Hilli would take the whole family, so the killing was a mess, not knowing exact number of passengers in Hilli’s car, shooting Zainab in the shoulder and leaving her for dead etc.
When RAF man came to the scene, he might have hit Zainab on the head to put her on a comma, and then went to the car and made a strange thing, put off the engine without making sure if someone else was alive inside the car and needed first aid? I think his concern was to secure what the French cyclist might have delivered to Hilli. Some device, info, CDs etc.
Believing the theory of Cherry that Zainab was told by her father to leave the seat for the French to be able to talk, I do not think that request was for mere conversation. If that was the case, the natural thing to do was for Hilli to get out of the car to talk, at least away from the two women iin the back seats. But he would ask the French to come inside the car, in case the former had something with him to deliver secretly into the hands of Hilli.

What do you think of this imagination?

9-11-2012 at 12:21:26

The link given by Freddy above, fits with my theory. The RAF guy, hit Zainab into a comma, secured what might have been delivered between the French cyclist and Hilli, then left the scene of the crime, when going down the hill, he was faced by the French car, for a cover up, he pretended to look panicked and frightened and had to take them to the place again.
This answers a problem which bothered me: If he was complicit, why did he call the police? why not just leave the place? Well, we know now he did not call the police.

9-11-2012 at 13:22:30

I’m disappointed to hear the scuttlebutt an innuendo with regard to the UK cyclist, let alone Sylvain Mollier, the local cyclist.

Cycling is one of the key sports and activities and often you will see the the locals out and about as you cycle through towns. Cyclists on these smaller routes would have a high degree of stumbling on something. Sylvain would have only had to walk four or five meters off the road to the car

On numerous occasions I have met fellow cyclists from my part of the world (not Europe) in the French countryside. The road appears a great climb and Sylvain would have probably warmed up on the flat from his town before doing the hard climbs. Never attempt to be a French local up one of their hills!

Why do we need all this conjecture, surely the News of The World / NI enquiry shows we need to pull back a bit. Both have families who are grieving – give them a bit of space.

9-11-2012 at 14:08:03

I have become very intrigued by this crime and now come back to this site regularly for updates! I don’t have a theory yet, but did lean towards the French cyclist being a target – but I do have lots of questions.

1.If it was one assassin / one gun how did the they manage to shoot all the victims in the head? I would have thought that once the first couple of shots had been fired that the others would instinctively attempt to escape, find any cover within the car, or even with just their arms. What other wounds have been recorded apart from the head shots?

2. I can’t understand why the seven year old, a key witness, was beaten (and left alive). This assumes the attacker was close enough to kill her off if they wanted to.

3. Is it possible to work out a sequence of the shootings as this could help determine who was the main target? Was the cyclists body found in front of the car? If so then he could have been shot after the car had parked up /attempted to reverse possibly indicating that the Hilli family where already dead. If they ran out of bullets then maybe the girl was shot last, hence the beating.

4. None of the witness statements seem to tie up. Why did the hikers not see the french cyclist, red BMW or the 4×4/motorbike/peugeot. Not much evidence has been corroborated by more than one person as far as I can tell.
If there is more to this crime, security service involvement etc, then I’m sure that any ‘evidence’ coming out in the mainstream media will be false and deliberately placed to contradict and confuse. Its a common tactic designed to draw attention away from the real evidence.

5. For an isolated spot there was a lot going on. Three cars, two cyclists, and a motor bike. Possibly a meeting of several parties?

6. Not sure why Hilli would take his family if he thought they would be in danger.

7. Does the road lead anywhere or is it a dead end? If a dead end then unless you were meeting someone you would only go there to park up and have a picnic or go on a hike. Where they equipped for that? Did the Hilli family take any other trips into the woods? Are there any other sightings of the red BMW in isolated spots, or them out walking together?

I look forward to further posts on this matter.

9-11-2012 at 15:15:43

Hi everyone and thank you for your interesting comments.

I think Saad Al-Hilli was the target. He of course did not think he was to be shot dead and had therefore taken his family with him. It’s a beautiful area and it would have promised to have been a pleasant sunny afternoon outing.

After reflection I tend to think that the RAF guy really did cycle into the killing. It’s strange, but strange things happen every day.

What surprises me is that there were actually another three guys at the scene -(my update earlier today) – but we have learnt of them only today, almost a week after the killing. Odd.

Ian S wanted to know whether its a dead-end road. I am not sure, but will find out. It is in any case not a highway with cars driving up and down along it. It is for this reason that it is popular with cyclists: it’s quiet and the air’s fresh!!

Ian S also asked about the shooting of the 7-year-old: why was she left alive.

Ian think about this scenario: the killer ran out of ammunition. If he had gone up there to kill only one man – Saad Al-Hilli – then he would have carried little ammo.

Now say that the 7-year-old had gone for a pee, had heard shouting, screaming and then shooting, and had run back to the car. Alas, the killer had just one bullet left in his 7.65 mm. So he fired at her, aiming for her head, but as she was a moving target, he missed her head and shot her in the shoulder. But he had to silence her. He therefore hit her over her head with the butt of his gun. He actually hit her three times. Maybe she still moved after the first and second hit and this called for a third. But then she lay still. She was in fact comatose when the RAF guy and the other three French guys got to the car, as I also write in my up-date.

A green 4×4 raced from the scene as the RAF guy said. He also spoke of a motorcycle having sped towards him. The French are not claiming that there was just killer: they are saying that there was just one gun used. There could therefor have been several killers, but only one pulling the trigger.

Would we not be stunned if this is the work of one very crazy individual. He was on the prowl for victims, and up drove a car full of them. We know that such people exist: take Norway for example. Hitting a small girl three times over the head, that really means we have a very crazy and cold-blooded killer here.

I think I can say with certainty that the last time a story had received such global interest was the death of Princess Diana and her lover, Dodi Al-Fayed. That was 10 years ago — and do we really know what had happened that August 31 in the Almal Tunnel in Paris?

9-11-2012 at 15:16:16

Sorry – Alma Tunnel…

9-11-2012 at 16:05:58

Dear Marilyn,
The problem with this whole crime is, who was the intended target?

Logic would dictate it would be the local cyclist. A regular cycling route, easy to anticipate. The complete silence regarding this victim does seem rather odd. This may simply be the way of the local authorities.

If its the british father, why wait until he is on holiday with his whole family? The only reason to kill the whole family would be as a warning to others, then again why would they leave the children alive?

problem – shooting is a very messy form of murder and attracts a lot of attention. If you are going to be as ruthless as to this has been, why not attack him at home, even make it look like suicide or a mugging gone wrong, anything but shooting. A single staged event made to look almost mundane would seem more plausible if we assume the killer was a professional. The key part of being a professional killer is that you dont attract attention and are able to get away with it.

To my mind this has all the hallmarks of a local gun nut who has been playing in the woods with his toy, comes across some targets of opertunity,kills the family (as far as he can tell),then two surprise witnesses turn up! The cyclist then the older child. He then leaves the scene quickly. The killing shows more than a passing aquaintance with weapons but technically very little idea of the practicalities of killing.

The killer ran out of ammunition, the older girl was shot only once not double tapped to the head ( classic spy novel stuff!!) Then beaten over the head. He didnt clear up his brass as he didnt have time.

Trace local sales of .32 ACP ammunition and cross reference with a green SUV! Job done.

9-11-2012 at 17:04:06

Your Comment

All very intriguing!

Does anybody know how long it took for Sylvian M’s wife/partner to contact the police. My feeling is she reported it soon after he was overdue home! Is it usual to report someone (45 year old) as missing to the police when they are a few hours overdue? Maybe I have the timeframe wrong?

Regards Dom

9-11-2012 at 17:09:25

Thanks for link to my diary @BooMan above.

A few particulars to answer some questions. It’s a small path, Route de la Combe d’Ire, and is barricaded for cars a few meters beyond the parking space. Cyclists and pedestrians can continue on a small mountaineous path. To travel down to Chevaline or Doussard there is a fork in the road at 150mtr. distance. So the motorcycle and 4×4 car traveled another road down as witnessed by the British cyclist. The execution style killing was done by a single gun, semi-automatic 7.65mm. First interesting clue to the killing was the find of another 10 casings after the BMW estate was removed. This establishes the fact the French cyclist Sylvain Mollier, employed by Areva/Cézus in Ugine, was targeted first.

The surprise IMO was the parked car of the al-Hilli family who were seen traveling the road from Chevaline 1.5 hours earlier. Saad al-Hilli must have put his BMW hard in reverse from its original position and tried to run down the gunman. He missed and hit the back hillside at got stuck. The assassin had time to target the three persons inside the car and the older daughter. She must have left the car earlier, because all doors were in locked postion and the engine was running.

Hopefully the 7 year-old girl will recover and she can provide the witness account of what really took place.

9-11-2012 at 17:24:36

some very interesting theories , if sylvian mollier was just a passing witness that stumbled upon the murder of the family surely he wouldnt have cycled right up to the car his body was very close to the drivers side leading me to think he may have been having a conversation with saad al-hilli when the killer struck im not normally in to conspiracy theories but i find it a huge coincidence that 2 men murdered in a rural car park shared a link to the nuclear industry and would both have been of interest to many national security services. i also find it interesting that the case hasn’t been passed to the interior as marilyn has stated

9-11-2012 at 17:36:57

DC
I asked the same question in my blog. It was strange that the wife was anxious to report him missing, as we have understood that the area is calm and quiet and is not known for crimes.

9-11-2012 at 18:47:19

I give details of the gun that was used above in my blog entry.

9-11-2012 at 19:25:03

Your Comments

interesting on the gun – not really what one would expect from a professinal killer.

Magazine holds 8 rounds,
25 shots fired
Thats 3 full magazines + one round from a fourth.
Doesnt look like it would take a silencer.

Was the killer calmly going about murdering, stopping momentarily to change magazine, then continuing the grim task? I wonder did the scene reflect this? Were there signs of victims trying to protect themselves?

9-11-2012 at 19:27:44

interesting on the gun – not really what one would expect from a professinal killer.

Magazine holds 8 rounds,
25 shots fired
Thats 3 full magazines + one round from a fourth.
Doesnt look like it would take a silencer.

Was the killer calmly going about murdering, stopping momentarily to change magazine, then continuing the grim task? I wonder did the scene reflect this? Were there signs of victims trying to protect themselves?

9-11-2012 at 19:52:30

Your Comments

I understood that this route is not actually a dead-end, but dangerous for cars and ok for walkers and cyclists.

Perhaps, when SAH and family reached this point, they parked to let Zainab relieve herself (or maybe she was carsick and needed air – kids often get sick on windy roads, which would also explain why she was sitting in the front passenger seat). Sylvain cycles up and is shot (many possible reasons – adultery, drugs, roadrage etc). Zainab screams and runs back towards the car. The gunman turns shooting the little girl in the shoulder, upon which SAH puts his car into reverse and hits the accelerator (judging by the skid marks, the car turned about 270 degrees before hitting the mudbank (next to the slain cyclist). Now the gunman lets loose on the BMW until all bullets are spent. He then tries to finish off poor little Zainab by crushing her skull before making his getaway before RAF man arrives on the scene.

Just another possible scenario. One thing is certain – Zainab must have been outside the car when the shooting started because had she tried to escape she would not turn back to close the car door.

Let us hope that when this poor little girl is fit enough to talk to police, the picture of the sad events of that afternoon will become clearer.

I am sure that no one wants this to turn out to be one of those awful unsolved mysteries!

9-11-2012 at 19:59:49

Ishtar,

The French police did not give details about when Sylvain’s wife had gone to the gendarmes.

First reports said that they had asked her for a photo of her husband. A report a day later said that she had taken a photo of him with her.

Does a wife go to the police carrying a photo of her husband when he had not come home?

Husbands, especially here in France, are known to ‘roam’, so I am sure that a wife would wait until the next day before she will go to the police. We all in any case know that here in France the police do not consider someone who is over 18 as ‘missing’ until 24 hours have passed. The law is that an adult (someone over 18) is free to stay away from home if he/she so wishes without the police launching a search instantly.

9-11-2012 at 20:35:33

A few things I thought I would mention to add to this debate;

1) The UK Science and Technology Council, who Al Hilli worked with have their Swiss department (also known as the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (CERN) just 30 mins from Annecy. Without doubt thats what ties Al Hilli to this area. It is also highly likely Mollier would have had dealings at this institute too…so I am very sure they knew each other well.
2) You all talk about the RAF cyclist not hearing gunfire. It is quite possible a silencer was used on the gun or shots were muffled, particularly if this was an organised attack.

Its such an interesting set of circumstances.. I have come to the following conclusions

1) Mollier and Al Hilli were indeed meeting. Perhaps the reason Al Hilli took his family this time was because he suspected trouble, although not to this magnitude. Perhaps he thought taking his family would deter anyone from causing any trouble, particularly if he thought the situation was never so serious that someone would take all of his family out.
2) If somehow his brother or other family are involved in this and a family dispute is involved maybe that is the reason he was there with his family….perhaps whoever it was that he also thought was coming to meet was someone he knew well…and therefore not to his family.
OR
3) Mollier was the target and it was random co-incidence the Al-Hilli family were there…but somehow that doesn’t make sense to me.

9-11-2012 at 21:31:19

Just a few points;

1) You are all questioning why Ms Mollier went to the police so quickly with a photo. This is a small village remember…having seen all the police cars driving towards the scene of the crime and the commotion not to mention gossip in the village, perhaps the simple explanation is that then Ms Mollier put this together with the fact she knows her husbands normal cycle routes and so was concerned for his safety…hence taking the photo. I mean…for all we know there could have been gossip in the village straight away that a cyclist had been involved. That would have no doubt worried her if she then tried her husbands mobile for example and couldnt get hold of him. She may have taken a photo to the police because she knew a cyclist was involved and wanted to see if it was him. Simple explanation….
2) I personally find it very coincidental that they both worked for nuclear companies. Also Al-Hilli worked for the UK Science and Technology council. Now their Swiss office is no less than 30 mins away at the European Nuclear Organisation (CERN) just outside Geneva. So that pretty much explains why Al-Hilli would know the area well and possibly know people living and working in the area (perhaps even Mollier as in his nuclear job he may also have had ties with this office)
3) I personally think it is highly likely Al-Hilli was going to meet someone in that layby. As mentioned its a dangerous path for cars….seems more plausible for example that Mollier would be cycling along it, perhaps more odd for a car to be there. Also…I wonder whether Al-Hilli suspected some kind of troubled meeting. Perhaps not troubled to the extent of what happened but I wonder whether he took his family on purpose as he thought it might be a deterrent to whatever trouble was ahead. He perhaps didn’t envisage someone would take out his whole family…this tale of events would make sense for example if somehow it is all tied up in a family dispute..as perhaps he thought he was meeting someone he knew or trusted. Again, that person could have been Mollier or he could have been totally innocent.
4) Although it is a huge coincidence that both men Al-Hilli and Mollier work for Nuclear companies and that is leading us all to believe that they knew each other etc, I think its worth remembering that in this particular area, and the nearby area of Geneva there are a lot of Nuclear, Science, Defense and Government agency offices…in fact I think the most per capita in the world…so it could just be coincidence…same goes for the RAF guy.

9-11-2012 at 21:57:30

3 more people shot dead today in car in France?

9-11-2012 at 22:57:20

There is alot of things we are not being told here but i am thinking that the british man and the french cyclist were meeting, the british man was waiting for the cyclist to arrive he’d parked (the car is very nicely positioned for someone who is supposedly panicking) the older girl in the front seat the 4yr old in the back the family see their attacker/s approaching sense danger and the mother tells the little girl to hide in the footwell the attacker/s get out ask mr british and threaten take the 7yr old out the car threating her to obtain item, cyclist arrives and they get the item shoot all think the girl is dead and didn’t even see the other poor girl. i didnt know what gear the car was found in until i read on here but i always though it was nicely parked and didn’t look like it had been rushed or anything also you say about his family being with him he wouldn’t have taken them on a meeting like that people involve family with stuff like that it has been known and these 2 could have met before and mr british trusted mr french and didn’t suppect anyone ‘intervening’ i def think that the french cyclist was more than a passer by very sad but very interesting

9-11-2012 at 23:24:57

hi you lot
I was away on holiday myself when this tragedy happened…. I am pleased to see that I am not a voice crying in the wilderness!! I thought straight away “Why aren’t the news programmes saying ANYTHING about the cyclist?” I emailed the BBC news desk, Sky News and even text’d the sky news programme to ask why this was so… I have yet to have ANY response from them….. Have they asked the police? If not why not and if so what response was there from the police?
I shall be watching this space!

9-11-2012 at 23:53:38

Marylin, DC, Ishtar, Lina

I don’t have the source, but I read that:

-the girlfriend of Sylvain Mollier, who might not yet have been his wife, waited several hours, until dusk, before she reported to police,

-was totally unaware of what was going on at the Martinet parking

-did not take a photo with her but was asked to provide a photo when gendarms realised the missing cyclist and the shot cyclist might be the same person.

-I personally could never wait till dawn to report my wife missing when I would have expected her for dinner and

-even if I’m not French and therefore not a French husband my French wife would neither.

-There’s no legal debate over when an adult person can be reported missing here in France in this case given the gendarmes realised in the process of hearing Sylvain Mollier’s girl friend what had happend and he therefore has never reported missing in legal terms but quickly declared dead.

9-12-2012 at 05:37:41

James, There will be a press conference here in France today.

9-12-2012 at 05:38:18

Anon, it was on the French island of Corsica. They were gangsters.

9-12-2012 at 05:40:17

Lina, It certainly is not a road for a pleasant afternoon outing. Al-Hilli might of course had got lost.

9-12-2012 at 05:41:03

Katey, nothing makes sense.

9-12-2012 at 05:48:49

Hi Alexander,

There is no hard and fast law about when to report someone missing, but a spouse turning up at a police station or with the gendarmes to say her husband or his wife went out cycling at 3/3.30 p.m. and had not returned and night had just begun to fall, well, they will smile behind their hands and ask her/him to come back in the morning. Only when the ‘missing’ person is a minor (under 18) do the police launch an immediate nation-wide radio and TV alert.

Must add that here in France we have what is called the cinq sept – the five seven. At 5 p.m. the offices close but the spouses or partners do not get home until after 7 p.m. Those two hours – from 5 to 7 – they are in the bars drinking or with lovers. It is also the busiest hour for prostitutes.

‘Madame’ Mollier is Sylvain’s companion, by the way.

9-12-2012 at 14:39:22

interesting article here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/11/french-alps-shooting-myst_n_1874225.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

which corroborates my earlier question that the fact Zainab was found outside the car is a question that cannot be dismissed lightly. See note that the doors were all found to be locked, yet the girl was outside

9-12-2012 at 16:05:20

Hi Paul,Thanks. This is interesting. Thanks for letting us know.

9-12-2012 at 16:40:25

I thought it was so strange that each time this is reported upon almost nothing was said about Mr Mollier, “the cyclist”, so I found this site. It is all very puzzling and interesting.

Kensington Ca

9-12-2012 at 17:00:47

Lina

S. Mollier was from Ugine which is some 20km (i think) from the murder scene. The village you may be referring to Is Chevaline which is at the bottom of the hill. Not sure there would have been much activity, wailing sirens etc in Ugine.

9-12-2012 at 17:05:43

the french guy worked in the nuclear. he could have runned away. i think the killer used a riffle a mini ruger with 30 shots magazine. they were all together as they had an appointment. he killed first the iraqi and then the cyclist and then he started to kill the family. the girl try to leave the car and was shot. as with no more time the guy went out. he can be the british of raf. it’s not possible to shot 25 times so fast… at least he had 10 min to all that and must use a rifle.

9-12-2012 at 18:47:12

Hi! Interesting comments. Strange affaire also…

It looks like Al Hilli was already waiting for a long time for Mollier. Probably Zainab was playing outside the car when Mollier finally showed up. Cannot expect a seven years old to stay waiting in a car for an hour. But as Mollier, still with his bike, stood talking to Al Hilly, suddenly somebody came out of the bushes behind them and started shooting at Mollier. Then Al Hilli started the BMW and drove backwards in an attempt to run over the killer. He failed obviously and get shot in the head. That’s why the car kept digging itself in. The shooter shot everybody very dead-of course. It took but seconds. He tried to shoot Zainab, but with his last bullet he hit only her sholder. Then he beated her until he thought she was dead. And went back into the bushes. Even or especially on foot it is not difficult to escape there.

Or he hid the gun (and the stuff whatever?) very good. Under several rocks, checked out in advance. Then took his bike out of the bushes and waited until he heard somebody coming uphill. To surprise them, full of blood and ‘in shock’ : come look what I just found! Now the place hangs full of shoeprints and DNA from 3 extra people. Why is the mysterious RAF ex-RAF? Maybe poor Zainab goes in shock again if they show her a pic of the RAF guy? But why would ‘such a guy’ give his identity price?

Last year the Belgian Xavier Baligant was killed with 4 shots from an old gun. At a motorway-parking near Nancy. While his children were sleeping in his car. Obviously for completely no reasons. Also there the killer could easily escape via the woods. Nobody remembers that story? Maybe there is a serial killer active in East France?

Maybe the killer dismantled the gun and hid the pieces in the gastank of the BMW where the Gendarmerie will find them next year?

9-12-2012 at 19:25:28

Why is one so definitive regarding the CZ 50 in 7.65mm & thus amateur involvement?

A more likely possibility considering the number of shots fired, the accuracy involved and the obvious rapidity with which victims were dispatched combined with the lack of obvious evidence, the efficient removal from the scene of the perpetrator & no mobile phone coverage in the area etc – Škorpion vz. 61 7.65mm ACP & a professional perpetrator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iokVmSi37g

& yes this is a weapon favoured by ‘specialist’ groups.

Compact, highly controllable, high rate of fire & extended capacity magazine.

Consider this as a possibility a ‘Shia’ Al Hilli – a now SHIA dominated IRAQ, a friendly SHIA IRAN – possible exchange of Satellite and Nuclear technologies ……. Israeli motive to pre-empt exchange and terminate.

Now investigated by military policy – therefore no civil involvement – clampdown on release of information, thus no possibility of embarrassment for a French ally.

9-12-2012 at 19:43:24

Michael O’Brien;

The gendarmerie’s logistics dept said that the gun was a CZ 50 7.65 mm. It was even described as ‘old’.

You are correct: the crime is being investigated by the gendarmerie, in other words by the Ministry of Defence (Defense) and not the Ministry of Interior. There has however been no statement from the Minister of Defence (Defense) and also not by the Minister of Interior. The latter is never slow to visit a crime or riot scene, yet this time he has not gone to Chevaline.

Thanks for your comment.

9-12-2012 at 19:46:16

Jan, Nancy is not near Chevaline. You may be confusing Nancy with Annecy which is the nearest big town to Chevaline.

Zainab, by the way, may be blind in one eye.

9-12-2012 at 22:14:03

Yes, Marilyn, Nancy is some 450km from Annecy but if you google the story of Xavier Baligant, some things are similar. Since what happened last year I never stop anymore around Nancy if I have to go to the WC at night. I wait 100 kms!

This unman hit that poor girl right in her face… This puzzle becomes bigger every day. However you turn it, it never fits.

If Mollier just passed by why did not he hide when he came near the shootout? I mean I would do that if I was unarmed and came even near a shootout! It looks like he was already there when they shot him. And it is not a normal place for a family to hang out. But which hitman gonna hurt a kid like that?

Maybe they simply mislead the cops so they don’t know in which corner to go look? Or they save on hitmen these days and this cheap one was on amphetamines and whisky so he made a mess? 25 bullets to kill 4 unarmed people? Miss one kid and beat the other in her face?

Maybe it was an amphetaminedeal that went wrong? With children and a grandmother and a big caravan it is easyer to go through the customs than alone. Maybe Mollier brought the stuff? It is very popular among bike drivers. But somebody knew about it and wanted the stuff and the money…

9-12-2012 at 23:23:28

More questions:

Why has the RAF vet been given special protection and secrecy?

But another very crucial witness (Philippe D., who also tended to victims on the spot), has already been named? Or if not named, endangered as a local touring the area with two female friends – therefore we are given much more information on him/them than we have been given of the other witness.

Why did Philippe suddenly take fright? Obvious enough, but was it also after talking to the ex-RAF man?

Why was no green 4×4 nor motorbike seen by the other witnesses (3 of them)?

And why is poor Zainab now in danger of losing her sight? and memory? I hope and pray she will be all right. I’m sure her attacker(s), however, couldn’t have wished for stronger neutralization of a clear witness, sickos that they are. If this is true, it absolutely stretches the bounds of credulity too far. All leads end in a clear cover-up. But a very, very messy cover-up at that.

The French police are right to question the RAF vet once again. But unless Zainab recovers, I’m pessimistic that there will be any proper criminal charges brought to bear.

9-13-2012 at 06:00:20

Jan,

Have you thought that we are dealing here with just another crazy killer with a gun which he wanted, or rather HAD to fire?

I’ve not heard of the Xavier Baligant case, but will google it for sure.

The first emergency call made my Philippe D. was at 15.48. This is official and from the prosecutor’s office.

I also wonder what kind of person would hit a small girl over her head, and not once, but three times and this after he’d already shot her in her body?

9-13-2012 at 06:06:21

Paul,
I understand there is much frustration at the French for giving bits and pieces of info which do not add up. This is, unfortunately, the French way of doing things.

Do you know that the British released all the documents of their Princess Diana investigation and inquest. The thousands of pages of the Royal Courts inquest were even on the web. (It is no longer so.) Whereas the French are keeping their Diana investigation secret. To have access to the documents one needs to put in a written request to the police, and as I know, the request never receives a favourable answer.

I will say that we will never know what happened here in Chevaline.

There are times when I think that the answer is the most simple that there can be: a crazed gunman now enjoying all the publicity his act is receiving – and probably reading this too …

9-13-2012 at 07:00:09

Copied from: http://scotlandyard.blogspot.com/2012/09/schizoid-son-person-of-interest.html

SCHIZOID SON “PERSON OF INTEREST”
TELEGRAPH UK–SEPT 12, 2012

STOCKHOLM–Haydar Thaher, 46, has a history of mental health problems and has not been seen by neighbours for a month.

Mrs al-Allaf, a Swedish passport holder, and her son had been living in southern Stockholm when she joined the Hilli’s on their French holiday.

Neighbours at their flat said they had not seen the son for about a month while Swedish relatives said they believed he had travelled to England.

Documents from a local criminal court in Stockholm reveal Haydar was arrested on numerous occasions for alleged violent and threatening behaviour against his parents.

However, he was never charged because they refused to testify against him wanting help for him instead, papers from the Sodertorns court show.

His parents allegedly told police they believed he was schizophrenic, that he had terrorised them since 2001 and threats were made on a daily basis.

In 2004 he was said to have screamed at his father: “I want to kill you and there is nothing you can to about it” to his father before hitting him.

The following year he allegedly attacked his father with his own walking stick and screamed:”I can beat you and I can kill you” in Arabic.

In 2006 he allegedly attacked his mother.
Posted by DUONG SON (2) at 2:39 PM

9-13-2012 at 09:53:02

NR;

Thank you for this. Do we have the shooter? I have this sinking feeling that we do. Both the French and the British police must surely know all this!

[...] http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/ This is a remark from a French person. It shows that there is doubt here too about the Chevaline killings. Un troublant point commun existe effectivement entre deux des victimes, le conducteur de la BMW et le cycliste : en effet, Saad al Hilli a des liens avec un laboratoire top secret nucléaire britannique (The Rutherford Appleton research) révèle le Mirror, et Sylvain Mollier travaillait lui aussi pour l’industrie nucléaire… Quant à l’autre cycliste, un ancien de la RAF… Bizarre, Bizarre. [...]

9-13-2012 at 10:25:35

The RAF guy did it!

http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/

(keep up the good work:)

Brgds,
Max (a fellow blogger)

9-13-2012 at 10:39:22

With this scenario (for the moment):

Scenario:

The RAF biker wants to kill the french biker (motive unknown) in a quiet spot. He follows the french biker (he himself ‘says’ that the french biker passed him … ok, nice story) because he knows it ends in a dead end, quiet place. There he shoots and kills the french biker with mulitiple shots (5 bullets hit the french biker) …

… BUT there are witnesses. The brits in the car. DAMN. The RAF guy fires a lot of rounds from a distance into the car (which already has the engine running, to escape?) to stop the car. Notice the flat back tyre of the BMW (is it a flat tyre?). Only possible when shooting from a distance. I mean … precision head shots and ‘a flat tyre’?? What is the precision in that?? Shooting works. The car doesn’t/can’t leave. The RAF guy quickly goes to the car and only now kills the people inside with 6 precision shots in the head. The 7 yr girls escapes in panic (already wounded perhaps). But the RAF guy is out of ammo and hits the girl with the now empty gun.

With the bloody massacre at hand and people closing in rapidly he must decide to ‘stage’ the whole thing and plays ‘hero’ with ‘rescuing’ the girl.

Then he runs down in ‘panic’, surely dumping the gun somewhere, only to stumble on the french hiker further down the path (or whatever he was taking). Now the RAF guy can’t play more tricks, he has to play cool and shocked, and changes from killer into ‘the guy who arrived as first one at the terrible massacre’.

THE RAF GUY IS THE PRIME SUSPECT!!!!!!

http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/

9-13-2012 at 10:41:12

But of course with the ‘nuclear connection’ you can tighten the scenario to make it even more credible:)

9-13-2012 at 12:03:34

Some points that have occurred to me.

1. PhillipeD the tardy witness says RAF man who lives half the time in France has “bad French” which was hard to understand! Not very likely. . ?

2. The French cyclist had just had a baby with a new girlfriend! Maybe his former wife and children aren’t very happy about this?

3. A lot of people ‘hunt’ in France, owning a gun is fairly normal. The reason it is so quiet in the woods is that even the birds are scared of being shot to make a pie!

4. The weapon used is very ‘Hollywood’ perhaps the sort of gun a deranged person might be attracted to.

5. The car park is a layby not a dead end at all. Google maps that.

6. Why were a herd of Plods allowed to trample all over the murder site?.

I agree that the police know a lot more than they are letting on and the Anglo/French accord is all about deflecting interest and a cover up. I feel very sorry for innocent victims. Interesting discussion.

9-13-2012 at 12:04:35

Max, the RAF man is back in the United Kingdom now. If the French have any hard evidence against him, they would not have allowed him to leave the country.

9-13-2012 at 12:05:11

Max, are you the RAF guy?

9-13-2012 at 12:12:50

Hi J cave;

Yes, many hunt in France, and the hunting season has just opened!

However, guns must be licensed and it is tough obtaining a license. I am sure that the investigators here in France are checking all those with the kind of firearm used in killing these victims.

What are Plods? If you mean the investigators, how were they to get to the car if not walk to it? And believe me the area was immediately sealed off and it is still sealed.

Thanks for your comment. Interesting.

9-13-2012 at 12:17:13

Hi Marilyn,

No, I’m not the RAF guy:)

It is quite simple. All parts have to fit, so all things we know HAVE TO FIT somewhere. And if you fit those in the most simple way then that will be the solution.

What I did, with the myriad of clues, your site maongst others, is to try to fit the stuff. And when you take the ‘tightened story’ EVERYTHING (we know) fits. You only have to turn around the RAF story, and we CAN because there is no evidence he is speaking the truth. We, and the whole world fall for his tear drawing account … but is it true???

If I turn aorund his story, everything falls into place.

I like elegance. My explanation is very elegant! We only miss a ‘motive’ but in all other scenario’s we also miss a motive.

Start with the RAF guy, and try to find the gun. IF the gun is between the parking spot and the french hiker … -> RAF guy is the killer:)

– Max

PS: Thx for being a detective blogger too, btw;)

9-13-2012 at 12:26:30

Interesting angle the RAF guy. In the first witness account, I remembered the British cyclist mentioned he knew Sylvain Mollier from the same cycle club in Ugine.

The location is a dead end for cars, not for cyclists and pedestrians. There are two roads leading down from the parking space, that’s why witnesses may have missed the motorbike and/or 4×4 car.

About the 25 casings, isn’t it possible the first bullet was in the chamber. Add three 8 round magazines and you have 25. Ran out of ammo and therefore added hard blows to the head of Zeinab Al-Hilli.

Be careful, I see plenty of disinformation presented by the investigating prosecutor and magistrates. I believe the Czech CS50 is false information. Look at the info given by Yves Gollety, president of France’s Chamber of Gunsmiths, at the time the 7.65 caliber was announced. No mention at all this caliber is the mark of the Israeli Mossad: Beretta Mod. 71 cal. 22LR. This model is dependable and has less recoil for close combat (in flight security agents) like the Czech pistol.

See link for map of location and region of the killings on Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/9/6/12538/19248

9-13-2012 at 12:29:52

My thightened story

Sylvain Mollier was on his way to Saad al-Hilli (nuclear connection). Yep, a ‘meeting’. The RAF guy is following his lead Sylvain Mollier to kill all. Kills all, runs out of ammo, with the 7 yr old girl on the loose. Hits her. And stages the killing with him as hero. Fakes his call/run for help, dumps the gun in the woods and fakes a ‘panic’ as he stumbles on the french hiker.

-> Everything fits for now

-> Shoot on this. If you find a ‘hole’ I’ll withdraw this scenario (part of the fun;)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 13:16:15

Your Comments Reminds me of the Brazilian killed in the underground–shot in the head. This one is extremely professional . French investigation needs time & people should have patience.

Maybe, shooting was done by one person & weapon removed by another.

9-13-2012 at 13:35:37

The RAF guy is in England and told his story with name and face at the BBC. If he is the murderer, I must say he is really a professional. :-)

Probably half Europe is now looking for the missing son/brother of the victims. The crazy son makes sence as suspect nr 1 for to have committed this event. There is hate in it.

Maybe he was the ‘strange’ man that hang around the first camping? Maybe al Hilly drove many times away to talk to him? Maybe they hid from him in the woods but he just followed them and shot them? And Mollier showed up while he was reloading?

9-13-2012 at 13:45:56

Why belive the RAF guy? It makes no sense, there isn’t anyone who can backup his story.

Only the 7yr old girl. That is his weak spot. IF, big if, IF she recovers enough ADN, big and here, AND she can recall about what happened, she could point to the RAF guy.

I’m really very very curious what she has to tell. I’m ready to drop ‘my version’ on her account, but only on her account … not some ‘crazy brother’ story:)

9-13-2012 at 13:52:05

And from the RAF guy point of view … he CAN’T run, because run = admit guild. And he can not bank on ‘not being seen’. Perhaps he knew (the risk) of being seen biking in that spot. So he has to account for this. Why was he there??

Now, he poses as ‘the first one to arrive at the killing spot’ (and acts as a hero, as a bonus;)

But what are his options? He has no other options. So he bends the facts in his way. And EVERYBODY falls for this, also me at first, but not anymore. The RAF guy is the killer;)

– Max

http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/

9-13-2012 at 13:59:04

Max, I was so depending on you being the RAF guy. I would have had a great story then!!

9-13-2012 at 14:00:22

OUi, I kind of also think that the killer ran out of ammo and that was why he hid the 7-year-old.

9-13-2012 at 14:02:18

Max, here’s a ‘hole’. The gendarmes have gone through the forest and did not find a gun.

I say the killer still has the gun on/with him. And either he is a down-and-out and very very crazy and living in a cave somewhere, or he is safely far away in another country and awaiting promotion.

9-13-2012 at 14:08:02

It wasn’t the RAF guy. You can see the hero here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19587651

9-13-2012 at 14:11:51

But Marilyn, your story has a much bigger ‘hole’:) You (and everybody else) introduce some unseen 4th party. Before you know it there are aliens who did this:)

My story does the job with the stuff we know, and the persons present.

Now, find the gun, look better, and check the RAF guy for ‘motive’. Start with WHY he was there in the first place? Just be critical. Most are ‘lazy’:)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 14:15:45

Max,the RAF guy is out in the open now. I give the url where you can see and listen to him in my previous comment.

This is for your info from Gendarme Benoit Vinnemann who is on the case.

“Concerning her father’s Baghdad ties, French Gendarme Benoit Vinnemann, one of the chief police investigators on the case, said specialists used to dealing with Iraq had been recruited to help but said it was a natural path of inquiry like the others.

“People should stop fantasising that the secret services must be behind this because there is an Iraqi facet to it,” he told the media conference.”

The French are also saying that the clue to the massacre lies in the U.K.

Everyone is now apparently looking for the psycho brother of Mrs.Al-Hilli.

9-13-2012 at 14:22:52

I have to say, the RAF guy seems pretty pretty cool. So much that even I doubt my story;)

But … the OPTION is still open. There is (to my current knowledge) no backup evidence of his (the RAF guy) story.

Let’s see how this develops. Because if I’m wrong, things HAVE TO point into a different direction. But I’m not seeing clear pointings;)

(but on the other hand … watch any ‘Monk’ or ‘Columbo’ … the killers are always ‘sure of themselves’ and the RAF guy is no exception. He is pretty damned sure of himself … a real hero;)

He talks about ‘reception of the mobile’ … but didn’t Philippe made a call from about that very spot?

– Max

9-13-2012 at 14:35:20

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9535383/France-shooting-new-witness-describes-horror-of-murder-scene.html

mentions a ‘panic striken’ RAF guy. Hmmm, the interview with the RAF guy shows not a guy who is easily ‘panic striken’ … and would one expect ‘panic’ from a RAF guy in the first place?

The article also mentions that there IS mobile reception ‘a few yards’ from the parking spot

These are holes, tiny holes in the story of the RAF guy

;)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 14:35:59

A few comments – the press here in London is reporting that the weapon used is a favourite weapon of the Serbian mafia. There is much scepticism that the killer was a local nut case, the bullets which killed the family members are too accurately placed for that. (Incidentally it seems the family was parked in a car park at the end of the accessible road there- to exit would mean turning around but there was a track which could have provided an escape route for a motorbike).

A former Head of the UK Security police and a senior criminology professor have both said that if it was a professional hit, then it could have been arranged to look like a car crash, especially in rural France. They say it looks as it was done as an example and looks to them to be terrorist related.

A Dutch couple have come forward who were camped near the al Hillis at the first camp site they visited. The al Hillis checked in for a week having booked by turning up, and checked out again unexpectedly two days later and moved to another camp site up the road. (It is a strange time to go on holiday as it is time to return to school in the UK)

The Dutch couple said their caravan looked very cramped for the family and also that the father went out 5 times a day each day, on his own for twenty minutes or so. AND that a smartly dressed man, who they described as seeming to be from the Balkans, visited them at the camp site.

There are also reports that Mrs al Hilli’s violent schizophrenic brother, who lived with her mother in Stockholm, has been missing for a month.

A senior French police man is quoted as saying in the papers here, that they were no ordinary tourists and one member of the party had links to the security services (in some unspecified way).

There have been hints here in the papers at some sort of Iranian involvement. But that seems to be pure speculation although the Iranians are reported to be involved in drug smuggling.

Finally is Interpol involved?

9-13-2012 at 14:38:41

The RAF guy has an Australian accent, I have found a Brett Martin through Wiki that was a champion Squash player, born in 1963 – same one maybe ?

What is his job now, some French press are suggesting he is a teacher of sorts.

9-13-2012 at 14:40:57

You may be interested to read this
http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/annecy-shootings/48966/gun-used-al-hilli-serbian-mafias-signature-weapon

Doesn’t sound like the RAF man (I think we can discount him) or the brother in law to me. Sounds like some illegal deal went down against al Hili, maybe he was on the run.

9-13-2012 at 14:41:38

Google earth or various satellites must have recorded something.

9-13-2012 at 14:43:09

To Max : Regarding phone signals, I have Orange which doesn’t work where I live, my neighbour is on SFR and it works perfectly, so quite acceptable that the RAF guy couldn’t get a signal.

9-13-2012 at 14:52:15

@honeyrose

And you mean that you can ‘discount’ the RAF guy with that story??

1 gun used, probably only 25 rounds of ammo available. A lightweigth gun, difficult to handle. Only for experts … and the RAF guy is on the scene.

If I were to be on a bike with a gun … probably that gun would be it

That story does NOT discount the RAF guy. A big rifle would (because not possible to carry on a bike) but a single gun …

Nope I still hold on to the RAF guy:)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 15:29:48

Hi Everyone!

I change my mind every time I read your comments.

I think the clue lies with Saad Al-Hilli. This guy was up to something. It seems the trip to France was a last-minute decision, in other words, just when the children in Britain were to go back to school. Now it is being said that he changed camping sites and that he drove off alone every day. He might therefore well have been on that road before and had an appointment to meet someone there again on the day of the killing.

I hope the RAF guy is not going to google himself because then we are going to be in trouble for our comments.

As I understand it, he was not the one who summoned the gendarmes. It was Philippe D. His mobile (cell) registered the call at 15.48 (police said so.)

And yes, Philippe D. did describe the RAF guy as in a great panic.

But, I now think that Saad Al-Hilli’s life caught up with him, and that this crime will be solved very quickly, and it will be solved in the U.K.

9-13-2012 at 15:51:30

@Lynda

Only one way to find out. Take the cellphone of the RAF guy and check it. Police should do this.

Or did they also ‘fall’ for our ‘hero’?

9-13-2012 at 16:10:18

Max, I would have thought that they would have done this perse, but if there was no signal maybe he didn’t even try the number, therefore it wouldn’t have been recorded on his phone. If you listen to the BBC interview it said he returned to France yesterday for further questioning, so he has been back in the UK since the initial statements. He is apparently also an ex-Captain of Bristish Airways, maybe this accounts for his apparent cool interview, as for the panic afterwards, often there can be delayed reaction, especially when trying to convey a dramatic scene in a language not your mother tongue. I have lived in France for some 15 years and although I speak good French I can still be put on the spot when dealing with a new situation and people I don’t know. Many Brits who live here never bother to get past the please and thankyou.

His name is also being written in the French press as William Brett Martin, who had a holiday home in the area, I suspect the TV interview is to publicly declare he cannot identify anyone or the car/motorbike, although it could be a red herring to appease the killer. The Green 4×4 is typical of the vehicles used by the forestry commission. I don’t think this guy is the culprit but it is odd that the emergency vehicles drove directly up to the site of the incident and he failed to flag them down, in your scenario he still could have had the gun – if found on him he would have said he picked it up at the scene. Both my husband and I cycle, we both wear cycling gloves which are part leather, part material and are fingerless. I am intrigued as to which side of the car the ignition is on in relation to the driver, did he lean over the driver or enter the car from the passenger side which was an empty seat ?

9-13-2012 at 16:34:28

@ Linda:

He leant over the driver. The hole in the driver’s side windows is pretty much bigger than the one in the passenger’s side window. “Riding shotgun” gets an all new meaning here.

9-13-2012 at 17:26:27

@Lynda

The (or my) way to solve a ‘puzzle’ any puzzle is to think in options, make a shot list and take the best/simplest option.

Read my blog http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/ and you”’ see I also went thru many options. But noen of them were satisfactory. until I stumbled upon the idea that the RAF guy did it.

Then all pieces came together. It is my BEST option, by far!

I have other options, valid(!) options. To ridicule it I can enter the option that ‘aliens from Mars’ did it. Don’t laugh;) It IS a VALID option.

What is the difference?

It is highly unlikely that it were the ‘aliens’

So you see, how I can ‘defend’ my ‘RAF guy did it’ option. Because, at the moment, it is BY FAR the best option I have.

(what you, and many are doing is to come up with ‘excuses’ for the RAF guy … but just go from the other side, Imagine he IS the killer … and see the elegance in the facts as you and I know them)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 17:39:04

Forgive my facetious remarks. I have lived in France and respect the meaning of “Vive la difference”
Do you know how it has been determined that the British family were early for the rendezvous?
Where I used to live in France (delightfully) there was sometimes a disparity between local and national times used by people. Not everywhere has mobile phone coverage and some people don’t have them.
IN the UK there has been some commentary backed up with pictures of hoards of journalists and indeed a herd of cows trampling through the scene, perhaps with hindsight, a bit prematurely.
I think it is a great shame that a French/Anglo accord seems to have been soured judging by some of the remarks around the net.
I am now speculating that the wifes brother from Stockholm may be pivotal. Perhaps the grannie had asked her son in law for help with him, as her husband had died. The British couple had property in France/Switzerland where the wifes brother may have been living or it was being set up during the visit.
Family dynamics can be a powerful incendary device for high emotions.
I am sure the police are being very careful what they say.

9-13-2012 at 18:27:27

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19593751

I’ll give you this. The RAF guy is cool. Is convincing. It is nearly unimagineable that he is the killer … yet, it IS a VALID option. Don’t forget this!

(If you saved a girl, wouldn’t you ‘visit’ the hospital to look her up?)

9-13-2012 at 18:30:42

I knew I read this early on, now the article has been rewritten. The original I just read on Europe1 – http://www.europe1.fr/Faits-divers/Tuerie-le-cycliste-venait-d-etre-pere-1229411/.

D’après Le Messager, les deux hommes se connaissaient et étaient licenciés du même club de vélo, à Ugine.

9-13-2012 at 18:42:12

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272

Full interview with the RAF guy.

He attended the girl first, then the french biker … He felt the pulse of the french biker … but he didn’t get the impression that the biker was shot?? He was shot 5 times!

The RAF guy only mentions ‘guns’ when he talks about the bullet holes in the car.

Well, het is RAF, he is military, he check a corpse (dead) and doesn’t see 5 shotswound … until later he realizes it is a gun game??

Does that make sense??

Btw, was the biker shot in the head?

To be frank about this. I’m only trying to undermine my own OPTION, but listening critically to the interview I can hear ‘weird’ things!

Check yourself

– Max

9-13-2012 at 18:50:48

Yes, I had read the same. Max, read your blog, I have to admit that my first thought was RAF man, although that career would have been before his career as a Captain for British Airways, the Press said a few days ago they knew his identity and were asked to not say anything. I suspect in Chevaline or the surrounding area he was known to other locals and no doubt easily identified.

Should he be the culprit, two options, he/someone enticed them to the area to holiday at short notice or they weren’t the target and Sylvain was. Phone records, e:mails will all be searched, the mother-in-law joined them, had she been in the UK before, crossed the Channel with the family or arrived separately, assuming latter, then where is the mystery son, Hayder Thaher – neighbours believe he went to the UK. Martin appears to have had a home in this area for some years, I assume he was there on his own doing some DIY on the property. The French police have stated that they believe the answer lies in the UK. Much is made of the value of the property Saad and family lived in, this was an inheritance so irrelevant, although he blocked his fathers will only a month or so ago, he was living in Spain when he died, was missing for six days before he was found.

9-13-2012 at 19:04:17

Remember that you and I and the police can and may slip up dozens of times, doesn’t matter. But the killer can’t afford 1 slip up. Now IF the RAF guy is the killer, and he gave a long interview we all can scrutinize this interview for (minor) slip ups … that is the ‘fun’ part

E.g. he tells chronological order of what he did. If he is the killer he has to make up this (more or less) and he can slip up by telling a inconsistent story (chronological account)

E.g. he mentions trying his ‘mobile’ only after checking the girl, biker and car and ‘thinking it was a gunfight’ … WTF? Only then?? After xx minutes (perhaps 5 or more) Only then he is trying to phone?????

That doesn’t make sense!

Any normal guy or girl would try to contact the police or whatever asap. Perhaps him attending the girl can be forgiven but, listen carefully he mentiones ‘minutes’, it takes 5 or more minutes for him to phone???

– Max

9-13-2012 at 19:31:53

And what if they brought the killer (in my mind Said al-Hilli’s brother in law) with them up to the hill? That would explain why nobody saw the killer coming uphill.

The green 4WD would been of the French foresters, the bike of some peasant who was regarding to that female witness not at all in a hurry and the killer, meaning the brother in law, escaped by foot.

He could have ridden shotgun while Zainab was in the back of the car with her sister, mother and grand mother before getting out of the car. Brett Martin would be what he claims to be, a witness to the crime who in fact has not seen much of the actual crime taking place.

9-13-2012 at 19:35:18

Alexander;

I don’t think a killer on foot could have got away …

9-13-2012 at 19:36:14

Max, At first, according to his interview with the BBC, he thought it was an accident. Intelligent man.

9-13-2012 at 19:38:34

Lynda, Would a wealthy family camp? There is a 5-star hotel in Annecy, right on the lake, beautiful setting. That’s where I would think the wealthy would stay.

9-13-2012 at 19:39:17

Oui, RAF man said nothing about knowing Mollier.

9-13-2012 at 19:40:31

Max, She’s not allowed visitors : under police protection.

This will make a good twist for a book or film. Mr. Nice Guy is in fact the killer.

9-13-2012 at 19:46:52

The French cyclist killed in the shootings, Sylvain Mollier, who lives in the area, died from seven bullet wounds, including two shots to the head.

From http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/world/europe/british-police-evacuate-area-around-home-of-alps-murder-victims.html?_r=1

7 shots, 2 in the head … yet the RAF guy didn’t get a clue??? He as a RAF guy and CSI tv lover;) should be able to see that … no, our RAF man only strats to think of guns by the bulletholes in the car minutes later.

Can you ‘overlook’ 7 shots/2 headshots?? (an ex RAF ex Airline captain and as we all are tv CSI ‘experts’ as he says himself ‘it was just like Hollywood’)

– Max

9-13-2012 at 19:50:24

The French cyclist killed in the shootings, Sylvain Mollier, who lives in the area, died from seven bullet wounds, including two shots to the head.

Now our ex-RAF ex-Airline commander guy managed to ‘overlook’ this. Yet he tells ‘it was just like Hollywood’

Can you ‘overlook’ 2 headshots??

– Max

9-13-2012 at 19:52:07

The French cyclist killed in the shootings, Sylvain Mollier, who lives in the area, died from seven bullet wounds, including two shots to the head.

Yet our ex-RAF, ex-Airline commander guy managed to ‘overlook’ this??

Can you (as tv CSI experts as we are) ‘overlook’ 2 headshots??

9-13-2012 at 19:54:43

@ Marylin:

You’re right, it’s a weak point.

Nobody gets away easy in that neighborhood where I read to climb 600 m it might take you up to 8 hours.

So I am fantasizing he never actually got away.

He’s still out there, dead or alive, having his blood smeared CZ vz. 83 Skorpion sub machine gun right with him but no ammunition left.

9-13-2012 at 20:03:28

Max,

Maybe the RAF guy thought that Mollier had a bad shave day,thus the blood.

9-13-2012 at 20:05:33

Sorry about the double postings (but I didn’t see them posted so I thought something went wrong;)

Another thing:

The RAF guy saw the girl stumbling on the road, then prone.
So she was mobile. (but HIT and you can only hit someboday outside the car)
From what point to what point?
From the car to the road? -> Probably
In her state, how long was she ‘walking around’ before collapsing?

1 minute, 5 minutes, 20 minutes?

Let’s say 2 minutes. But the RAF guy she’s her falling! So he must have been within 2 minutes from the scene

->-> YET HE HEARD NO SHOTS (25 shots were fired)??

What is the distance when you can not hear the gun shots anymore … and related that to the girl who was still mobile

On the RAF guy own account he must have been pretty near the scene.

Another ‘weird’ thing. So close, but not heard any shots!?!?

9-13-2012 at 20:37:31

From what I understand they took the caravan with them, so they would not then have chosen to stay in an hotel. I do not believe the family were cash rich , his returned accounts were not showing a large income, it appears he was a consultant, self employed, hit and miss income, the property was an inheritance, the state of the exterior a bit of a tip for a reasonably affluent area, take a look at next door.

Al-Hilli took the family away just when the oldest child would have been expected to be in school for a new term, why? He apparently told a neighbour that he was troubled, asked him to keep an eye on the house, mind you my neighbours always do and vice versa, this could be a hindsight comment and of no importance.

Max, where have you seen 7 shots to Mollier, two to the head, I read it was five, which would explain if he had fallen upon a scenario, tried to escape and shot at distance, seems the gun was best used in reasonably close range.

I have seen the video of Martin again, watch it without the sound, he is a man who normally ‘talks with his hands’, he keeps them clenched on his knees, but his thumbs move alot, unfortunately the camera zooms in and at a certain point this can’t be witnessed anymore.

9-13-2012 at 20:38:43

I am coming to realize we might as well forget about my “uncle killer” theory.

There are two weak points:

Why would he not have brought enough ammunition to finish off his sister’s family and his mother once and for all?

Aah, because he spent the bullets on Sylvain Mollier.

But why in all heavens would he forget about his 4 year old niece?

Well, big may be here, becauses he did not even knew she existed given that she herself rarely seems to know that she had a grand mother on her mother’s side, not to speak of a far away living alienated schizophrenic uncle?

But then again, why is the police not asking these questions but instead considering him as a suspect in the murder case?

I should go myself looking him up in the woods given I do not live too far away:)

9-13-2012 at 21:16:59

Lynda, the 2 headshot source was NYpost but not solid. ‘Sylvain Mollier aurait reçu cinq balles mais aucune dans la tête.’ Read here http://sites.radiofrance.fr/chaines/france-bleu

So here is the RAF guy in the clear. It is possible that he has mistaken the shotwounds of Sylvain for accident wounds

9-13-2012 at 21:31:14

Lynda and all just look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272 again. From 6:30 to 7:10 … it is nearly as if he is ‘enjoying’ his made up story. He is so carried away by the ‘hunter’ that he realizes at 7:10 that he mustn’t overdo it. He pauses (wisely) to refocus himself.

If you watch the video with him as the killer in mind, it becomes more and more credible.

Of course I’m not sure, but he is the perfect suspect, now still the ‘perfect’ hero. He is possibly enjoying his real life CSI with him as main actor.

BUT

If he is not the killer, we are back at square one, without a clue what happened. In that case I go for the ‘aliens from Mars’ connection:)

– Max

9-14-2012 at 00:04:47

@Max@Lynda Some interesting points.
A 7 year old, shot in the shoulder with a broken skull — most probably will not be stumbling around or able to stand. If you see an accident–your first reaction is to go for your mobile.

Very intriguing that he moved the bodies around,switched off the ignition–while worried about the killer in the bushes.

At one point-he could not remember the number of people in the car . In desperation ” there could be 10 people sitting “–was again a bit strange.

According to him little girl was conscious,stumbling around when he spoke to her,after he put her in a recovery position.
All the above is not conclusive but his story needs to be checked thoroughly.

9-14-2012 at 02:05:51

@ Alexander Cartier

It is a good idea to go look around there if you dare. Maybe you will catch the crazy killer picking up his empty gun and the microfilm? From under some rocks. You can then take the empty gun from him and beat him on his head with it until he cries for his mom. Then you throw him in your car and bring him to the Gendarmerie. They will be a little bit embaressed but you will be a hero much bigger then the RAF guy! Maybe it will be even the RAF guy, who knows? But I think that if somebody had hidden it somewhere there, he will have picked it up already. Or maybe he waits, in every tree could be hanging a Gendarme nowadays.

He could have easily ran with the gun via the path that starts at the parking and hid the gun somewhere along that path. If it was the crazy brother he could have been in the car and made the family at gunpoint drive to that lonely spot. Killed them and ran via that path. He had 1.5 hour advance on the heat seaking helicopter. At that time he could have been already long time gone to near Giez. Maybe he parked his car there so it would not be seen near the crime scene? Even if he met a hiker no problems with sunglasses and so. They would not recognize him if asked later.

Maybe the guy is crazy but not stupid? Maybe he sat next to al Hilli when they drove up to that place? That is why the women were in the back. 7 years old may not sit in front. Being IN the vehicle and then simply leave walking via the woods : how are they gonna catch you? Maybe he figured that place out via google maps and explored it a bit.

Maybe Zainab was on his lap in the car? He took her with him out of the car and beated her before their eyes for some reason. At least he could. Wat could they do? Maybe there was a negociation going on, suddenly interrupted by Mollier…

Maybe there was an appointment first somewhere else where the killer started to threaten them with the gun. I have this feeling que le monstre était dans la voiture!!

9-14-2012 at 05:48:16

It is a beauty spot there to kill somebody. Do you think al Hilli would drive there with all the family with him if he was in troubles with somebody? Why would he go there anyway? Unless he was forced to. Probably he did not even know the place and had a bad feeling when he passed that plate : dangerous road – end of the road 3 km…

But with somebody sitting next to him, pointing a gun at his daughter he could not do else then do what him was told. Once on the beauty spot the crook took Zainab with him out of the car, making sure al Hilli would not run of or do anything. Probably he held the girl the whole time close to him as a sort of hostage.

If he wanted ‘a thing’, like a CD or documents from al Hilli, he would not have to organise this mountain trip. Guess Hilli would have given it as soon as they seriously threatened his daughter. It seems like they were really after Hilli (or his mother in law) self. Somebody was very angry at somebody. It looks like a punishment. And an example for others who also do wat al Hilli possably did.

There is some cowboy style in the story. Maybe it were the same people who threw Bin Laden in the sea?

9-14-2012 at 06:00:03

Hi All,

I see that you do not find the RAF guy’s story convincing. I have my doubts too, but surely, the police (here in France and in the UK) are old hands at interrogation and they have expert psychologist to make analyses of witness behavior. Therefore would they have been fooled by the RAF guy.

What struck me was that Philippe D. described him as panicky, yet, here he is on the BBC calmly speaking of coming across the family and administering aid to the 7-year-old.

I know, and I am sure so do you, that one never moves, even touches, an accident victim. Neither does one touch anything at a murder scene. Yet, he did so. He could have killed the 7-year-old by touching her … (No pun!)

Why would he have cut the ignition? It is really the last thing I would have thought of doing. I actually would have let the engine run as this would have been a vital clue to the investigators of how and when the driver had been shot. (But then I am a true crime writer.) And he touched the door knob (if I remember correctly) to open the door. A great mistake because he could/would have wiped out another fingerprint on the door – that of the killer.

I think that the killer, in a mad or furious state, first opened fire on the car. Some of those shots would have hit the people inside it. Next he opened the doors on the right of the car (right-hand drive car seeing it was registered in the United Kingdom), shot the driver twice in the head, then opened the right rear door and shot each of the two women twice in the head. Why did they not run from the car? What do you do when you are given a fright? Do you run, or do you become lame, unable to move. I know that I freeze, for a few seconds, even maybe minutes, anyway. That would have been enough time for the killer to have shot me dead had I been seated in the rear of the car. And why did he shoot them twice in the head? (1) Make sure they are dead because one shot might still miss the brain, but two won’t. (2) A reflex: finger just won’t stop moving.

French TV and the various radio stations are not omitting to mention Mrs. Al-Hilli’s brother, now missing, who had been beating their mother (the dead 70-year-old) for years. I would say that Interpol has been given his photo and details and is looking for him or will start to do so today. Meanwhile, have we been told what he looks like: height, weight, coloring etc. The media here in France has not given any such details. I, for example, would like to see what he looks like. I mean I want to recognize him when I step outside should he come looking for me because of what we’ve been writing on this site. Crazies do always want to read what’s being written about them.

Anyway, I am looking forward to reading your future comments.

Have a nice investigative day.

9-14-2012 at 06:03:16

Conflicting information

1) RAF Pilot Brett Martin’s two interviews DO NOT MATCH!!

First Matin states that “the girl was stumbling across the road” in one interview; then he mentions “she was lying in front of the car” in the BBC interview…WHICH IS IT???

We hope Martin is re-questioned concerning the actual incidents to get the story straight…or to discern deception.

PLEASE clarify conflicting interviews/information.

2) ALSO:

WHO was the “smartly dressed man” that witnesses describe as, “looking for the Al-Hilli’s” at the camping site? Stories stated that a “Balkan/Serbian was at the campsite looking for the Al Hilli family…What ever came of that? That and the weapon seem to be line with Serbian mafia/underground ties to Iraq that cannot be discounted.

3) MOST IMPORTANTLY, The brother, ZAID:

Reports sate that Caveat #58692 is a court order that SPECIFCALLY ordered a finacial stop on Al-Hilli father’s inheritance…a BIG factor in this, ESPECIALLY as ZAID profusely, immediately and conveniently (presenting an concrete alibi when he could have have hired concrete “outsiders” to do the dirty work); it has been reported that ZAID STAUNCHLY DENIES having “ANY DISPUTE” with his brother…the paper trail may ead to the trail, but it must be paired with the PAPERLESS trail, hopefully forensics from the technology devices will aid in that aspect of the investigation. That in itself is HIGHLY incriminating, especially as reports stated how Zaid INSISTED “there is no discord betweeen he and his brother/or in “the family”…this seems like an obvious non-truth because 3 of the family are dead. With Zaid’s potential connections to Iraqi underworld and dealings, he would be a PRIMARY suspect.

Some reports indicated that Zaid moved out of Saad’s home recently…any truth to that?

I hope the media will be able to disclose other key points like chronological factors of events, etc.

I understand the crime “was discovered”, “actually took place around” or was reported at 3:40pm…Can this be substantiated?

Merci mille fois

9-14-2012 at 06:18:34

EVERYONE IS MISSING the item on TOP of the car roof…no one has mentioned the “missing tube” from the car roof rack.

It looks like a fishing pole holder or even a blueprint schematics/topo or cartography type container. One of those was torn off the roof of the car…you can still see the other one and discern that the tip on the left side container is the only part left of that container, strapped on top of the vehicle. Where is the other one?

9-14-2012 at 06:41:06

Hi Sophia;

I did not know about the missing tube from the top of the car.Will have a look at the photo of the car again.

9-14-2012 at 06:43:00

Sophia;

The first call received on the emergency number of the gendarmerie was registered at 15h.48 European time. This means at 13h.48 in the United Kingdom. The call was made by Philippe D. on his mobile (cell) phone.

9-14-2012 at 07:45:38

Good spot Sophia

An earlier picture of the car would be useful!

I am not familiar with such tubes. I wonder what’s usually carried in them?

9-14-2012 at 08:47:34

DC

I wouldn’t discount documents being placed in vehicles rooftop tubes and taken or went missing during/after the crime…looks like the one on the left was ripped off of the vehicle. it would be VERY interesting to know WHAT specifically those tubes are for, but they look like fishing rod or blueprint tubes.

Thanks for the time info, Marilyn.

I also can’t find any info on William Brett Martin ANYWHERE, other than the news stories…

Looks like the gendarmerie and investigators have their work cut out for them…Fair winds and Following Seas…I hope they keep the blue side up!

Godspeed infinding the perpetrators!

9-14-2012 at 09:06:59

@ Sophia:

2.) “Balkan type”: camping site clerks said it was an Italian tourist.

3.) Zaid moved out the al-Hilli house around one and a half year ago after having been replaced by Mrs. al-Hilli as his brother’s company secretary.

9-14-2012 at 09:56:54

The Claygate house was left to both brothers by their mother in her will.
RAF man stated he was concerned because he could smell engine overheating due to revving in reverse gear and tyres were burning. He broke the window a bit more than it was already, to reach for the ignition. The key would probably be near window on a British car with right-hand drive. He moved the child as he was concerned the car might lurch forward.
I think the younger child would have said if their was another person in the car who she didn’t know very well.
Some of the RAF man’s remarks during the interview were laced with sarcasm as the idiot interviewer asked some ghoulish questions. Mr Martin talked about seeing dead people for the first time in what I consider to be a most authentic way. Australians (I have lived in Australia too) have a much more upfront gungho way of communicating which might come over as a bit insensitive. Very nuanced stuff like this is hard to translate, when just bald text. He seemed utterly genuine to me.

9-14-2012 at 11:16:16

The bars on the roof of the car are for a luggage box, certainly the second bar is missing/broken. The car is not new and judging by the state of the exterior of their home in Claygate, I repeat they were not cash rich, so it could have been broken a while.

French TV are reporting the 7 year old has left hospital in Grenoble and France.

I would find it interesting to know how they crossed the channel and how many passengers there were registered, I suspect by sea as turn up and go at the Tunnel is enormously expensive especially with a caravan in tow. Did the Swedish son travel with them in some way, afterall he could easily have been a footpassenger and then travelled through France with them in the car.

The two women, seven year old were sitting in the rear, the four year old used to being in the footwell, probably sleeping, there was no car seat and two men in the front.

Leads me to wonder if the child went outside to go to the toilet, it would have been hot to sit in a car without the airconditioning, only way to get the aircon to work is to turn on the engine and then close the windows, door locks automatically upon ignition. Maybe the son, got out of the car at the same time, returned to a locked car and went mad.

9-14-2012 at 11:39:58

Hi all,

Just keep it simple. And start with what we’ve got. We’ve got mr RAF and mr RAF is either:

1. The first one to see the killed people (telling the truth and hero)

or

2. The last one to see them alive (bending the truth and killer)

We have interviews of him. And we (and the police) should scrutinize those interviews for every inch, second, humm, look, gesture, word, ‘explanation’ to find out if it is 1. or 2.

To ‘proof’ option 2. you have to find a ‘hole’ in his account. Just one ‘slip up’ is enough.

Once you have established 2. we can move on to ‘motive’ and backstory

IF after scrutinizing everything, option 2 is not found valid, he is option 1. and we are back on square one (with mr RAF not very helpfull because he hasn’t a clue what or who did this, no heard/seen anything)

So, my fellow ‘investigators’ I’d say we scrutinize mr RAF (his interviews) until it is proven to be either option 1. or 2.

– Max

9-14-2012 at 12:16:28

Regarding the 4 year old apparently she was only able to tell the Police that she was in the car with her mother, father and sister. She also didn’t recognise a photo of the ‘grandmother’. Maybe not a surprise as she is unlikely to have had much contact with the child.

Max, I agree that the RAF chappy is the most obvious at present, no witnesses to his statement as yet.

For it to be him, it isn’t a random act in the sense that RAF chap has had a home there for sometime, so Al-Hilli was enticed to the area and not just the location of the shooting, that must have been a pre-arranged meeting. Al-Hilli leaving the campsite to receive or make calls to someone, who suggested they move to another campsite, maybe because it was quieter. RAF chap knew this mountain climb as did Sylvain Mollier, possibly didn’t expect to see him en-route so he was in fact the first man shot.

Telephone records will surely be the answer to all this, even pay as you go leave a trace.

9-14-2012 at 12:19:09

There is the saying ‘give them enough rope and they’ll hang themselves’

9-14-2012 at 12:20:39

There is the saying’ give them enough rope and they’ll hang themselves’

9-14-2012 at 12:29:38

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/chevaline-j-ai-pense-a-un-fou-qui-rodait-dans-la-foret-pour-tuer-tout-le-monde-14-09-2012-2164608.php

He is currently an Aeronautic Consultant, primarily for Boeing, he had a 20 year career with BA, New Zealand born residing in Brighton.

Has owned a property in Lathuile for 2 years, which is 2Kms from Chevaline.

9-14-2012 at 13:11:41

Being a pest go to this site and you’ll see his working life details that have no been hidden/removed from Linkedin, I got as far as seeing that the company name is Silver Fern (Sussex) Ltd. Looks as if he rented out his property in Lathuile as well.

Some French and Brits are saying the guy we see on the VT is an actor…..

9-14-2012 at 13:14:16
9-14-2012 at 13:37:54

Fascinating discussion. I also find the RAF guys interviews ‘odd’. Also wondered whether the child was stumbling around like a child larking about or whether the child was lying down as seems to be two versions of the story he has put forward.
I noticed the RAF guy mentioned ‘minutes’ a lot.
To me, he seemed to be over-explaining and/or over-emphasizing certain things. Like the fact that it was minutes before he suspected a gun crime.. Possibly because he had to explain to police previously why it had taken him ‘minutes’ to try to call for emergency services?

He also mentioned that he still had his gloves on ‘minutes’ after trying to tend to the girl/cyclist. I personally would find gloves a little disabling? My first instinct when trying to do anything requiring precision would be to take gloves off? Even if they were fingerless? I’m thinking of taking a pulse for example – which in his interview he claims to have done with the cyclist.

9-14-2012 at 14:09:01

Hmm, I was trying to ‘proof’ mr RAF was not credible and the prime suspect. I wanted (how naively) ‘help’ the authorities.

If however mr RAF is part of a ‘cover up’ (and it certainly seems like this and it explains to me why the interview is the way it is) -> Then the authorities whom I tried to ‘help’ have just become my worst enemies;) Just like ‘trolls’. You can’t win, but you can ignore them:)

And with that I will stop immediately to put in more energy into the matter. I’m not going to spill energy on an army of nobodies with too big ego’s (aka the ‘authorities’;)

I don’t have to put anymore energy into the matter because I have proven my point. It was mr RAF (and friends;) …

… next puzzle plz

(oh, and plz do make a movie;)

– Max
Out

9-14-2012 at 15:26:20

Max, I think this is a crime which will be solved quickly – within the next few days.

9-14-2012 at 15:28:08

Mick, I’ve been reading French blogs and no one believes the RAF guy.

9-14-2012 at 15:28:30

Thanks, Lynda.

9-14-2012 at 15:33:47

Your Comments

Could there be a connection with the contentious takeover plan announced this week by arms giant European Aerospace and Defence Systems (EADS) of UK’s biggest (weapons) manufacturer British Aerospace (BAE)?

There’s bound to be some pruning back of the dead wood but EADS won’t have to pay redundancy to one ex-employee as Saad Al-Hilli already has his package.

Saad worked for Guildford based spy-sat company, Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd (SSTL) which is an an EADS subsidairy. 2,500 BAE personnel are also employed in Guildford on ‘cyber-security and intelligence work’ according to the Guardian newspaper. Well, its probably just a coincidence…

9-14-2012 at 16:00:56

Anyway Marilyn, I still have to thank you for your blog, and the way the comments section was a ‘meeting’ place for ‘investigators’ like you, me, and the others;)

For me the puzzle is ‘solved’. I had my fun. Surely the ‘real’ reasons (whatever they may be) will pop up sooner or later, and for sure it will be caused by people who think too much of themselves, and the tears the ‘cried’ are the tears of a crocodile (not real).

I do care for the ‘collateral’ damage. The 2 girls (and possibly the french biker) those 2 girls were truely innocent (an example for all, and a reminder how we once were ourselfves)

I salute you all,
Max, Out (this time for real, promised;)

9-14-2012 at 18:15:11

“According to French blogs no-one believes the RAF guy”. Probably because they are not familiar with British way of expressing ourselves, eg. nuances of language, tone of voice etc. I have viewed the entire interview and found his testimony completely believable. He is not the culprit.

9-14-2012 at 18:33:44

The seven year old told Police she saw just one ‘méchant’, in kiddies terms maybe she said one nasty or bad man.

Apparently looking for a black Mitsubishi Pajero with a British plate seen in the area, not in connection with the crime but as a possible witness, probably just trying to rule it out.

9-14-2012 at 18:44:13

Lynda, Could then not have been her uncle.

9-14-2012 at 18:44:42

Scottie, could be, yes.

9-14-2012 at 18:45:31

Aha, see you soon!! This is like eating peanuts, one keeps on reaching for more.

9-14-2012 at 18:46:54

Tony, I can’t quite link the two.

I am sure the motive is so simple that we are all going to be surprised and wonder why we could not see it.

Thanks for your comment.

9-14-2012 at 18:49:14

Now they are looking for a black Mitsubishi Pajero. They investigated Chevaline and the road to the spot. On top of the hill is also a road. It would take a 2 kms hike uphill to that road. Check it with google maps. The path is on it. You come at the Chemin rural des Replens dessus a Giez. There is one farm and one house on that road which are on foot avoidabe but with a car not. Maybe some people there saw a jeep with English plates hanging out there before and around the time of the killings?

Would the crazy brother go so hard after his mother? What did she do wrong? That he climbed litterally over mountains to go kill her. Or after he killed her. He could have killed her in Sweden. Or in England. Strange.

Maybe the crazy son became good friends with al Hilli’s brother? Somewhere in England. And they started a joint-venture. One had the brains and the other the crazyness. And both had a sort of a motive.

If al Hilly drove of the camping so many times it could be to go make phone calls at a public phone. Besides those two he had namely also problems with aeronuclear guys and the RAF. He could have just as well died from a heart attack.

I hope he finally rests in peace.

9-14-2012 at 19:05:57

Jan, Not many public phone booths in France these days.

Here is a new scenario: The crazy brother is dead too. His body will be found in the next few days. And do you know what? He’s been shot with the same gun.

9-14-2012 at 19:14:35

I really don’t think the crazy brother has anything to do with it. By the way – is he the brother of Saad’s wife?

9-14-2012 at 19:26:43

Zainab Al-Hilli leaves hospital in Grenoble and is transported to England.

Very strange option and highly unlikely unless for medical reasons to save her life in case of need for special treatment. She could have been moved by ambulance to nearest airport and special private jet for transporting patients.

Someone with head trauma and skull fracture should not be moved. When I was 7 years old in 1953 I got a severe skull fracture and everyone feared for my life. I was transported by ambulance 8mi. to nearest academic hospital in Leiden. I did well and survived, but I stayed for 3 weeks horizontal on a hospital bed. Returned home by cab and stayed in bed for another 3 months. When I was allowed to walk after nearly 4 months, I had te learn to balance myself because the vestibular system had to readjust. Healing period of a skull fracture takes a long time.

I suspect plenty of disinformation to protect the true line of investigation and protect those witnesses still vulnerable. Unless she is already providing details of shooting incident and her security is imperative.

Has the involvement of a state security agency been ruled out? Why were 20 men from British intelligence on the scene within hours of the crime?

9-14-2012 at 19:52:28

James Bond also walked around with RAF papers at times. But he never beated a child in the face. People would leave the cinema and make troubles. In the US they would sue him in person.

What if Zainab CONFUSES the RAF guy with the killer? She was in and out conciousness. They say the girl is blind and her brain is damaged. They say not always the truth. Maybe they said they were looking for a motorcycle and a little white Peugeot? While they were really looking for a big black jeep all the time.

Probably they have already some persons in mind but how are they going to prove it? To fix the whodunit is just one thing. If the French blame the RAF guy it would give bilateral problems. The RAF guy should suggest himself to go talk to a lie detector BUT at times those things are wrong…

Maybe this story ends with the crazy brother under suspicion. Guess he never will be found.

9-14-2012 at 20:08:26

I just read some articles about Zainab’s discharge from Grenoble hospital. The severity of her injuries and treatment to save her life does not match the possibility she is well enough to leave hospital and travel with family onder guidance of British police.

The schoolgirl who suffered life-threatening injuries in the shooting massacre in the French Alps saw ‘one bad man’, it emerged tonight. It came as Zainab Al-Hilli, seven, was considered well enough to travel back to the UK with two family members. Before she left, she spoke to investigators and made her claim, which appears to confirm that just one assassin was involved.

Yet doctors at the University Hospital in Grenoble, where Zainab was originally put in an induced coma to help her recover, today gave her the ‘green light’ to go home. ‘It was considered beneficial that Zainab returns to a familiar place,’ said an investigating source.

I also had memory loss of the last minutes before the accident. Memory can be jolted by reliving the period before the killings. Both young girls should travel under guidance the same route up to the parking place. On location she should provide more details of the shooting incident. If she is not well enough, a video projection of the route could recapture the situation and would stimulate her memory. Both girls should be present for support.

9-14-2012 at 20:14:45

The ‘mad’ son, was in a British hospital the day the murders took place.

9-14-2012 at 21:50:19

Where’s Max?

Brett Martin LinkedIn Account
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/brett-martin/31/b63/537
Consultant B787 PSIP/SFI Boeing UK Training and Flight Services
Consultant CRMI(G), MCCI, B737 SFI bij Alpha Aviation Group
Human Factors and Leadership course design and training Silver Fern (Sussex) Limited
Training Captain British Airways
Air Defence Weaponeering Instructor (pilot) Royal Air Force (1978-1989)

From Lynda’s link above [http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1061039634s]
Brett Martin’s place is located:
215 F impasse Francois Decoux Lathuile 74210, Haute Savoie France

Calculating the feasibility of being overtaken by Sylvain Mollier on a 3 km stretch of road from Chevaline with potholes leading to higher ground at the road blokkade and parking space. See photo’s of house in Lathuile, besides an Audi stationcar there are mountain bikes visible. Assume a speed difference of 15 km/hr and assume French cyclist traveled at 30km/hr he would arrive in 6 minutes at parking lot. British cyclist would be half-way (1.5 km) and would arrive 6 minutes later. In an isolated forested area you hear all noises, especially a minimum of 5 shots to kill Sylvain Mollier.

Second witness Philippe Didier Jean in Le Parisien: “A few minutes earlier and we could have been in the place of the murdered cyclist We did not know whether we are in danger or not – whether those who had done all these things, yet are close to or. not.”

These were hikers walking up-hill at a pace of 4km/hr max. Let’s assume Brett Martin spend 10 minutes “caring” for victims. Why did he run down-hill and not take his bike? The hikers would have been approx. 700 meters away when the RAF guy arrived at the parking lot. Please explain this time frame of both witness accounts. Where did the hikers park their car, the forested stretch of road is 2km long. The RAF guy didn’t overtake the hikers …

9-14-2012 at 22:00:58
9-14-2012 at 22:58:53

I don’t know about the French really. Mostly people in South France have at least one lamp of their car kaput. Some have NO backlights, brakelights, licence plate lamps at all.

It seems like they are too lazy to replace their lamps and the gendarmes are too lazy to do something about it.

In Holland and Belgium they stop you for that. Without penalty but they ask friendly to replace the lamp.

Now they have this language problem. They are worth each other. I would be a translator at times. If it was not so serious you can translate how you want.

Me I had lifetime problems with both English and French old women who spied on me on campings. Celui la dors dans sa Peugeot. He takes the night for the day. Bla bla. How can I go to explain those people about how I love the night? And a joint and a rosé?

9-14-2012 at 23:26:21

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19587272

Have a look at this interview again. Specifically from 1 minute in (approx.) to 1 minute 11 seconds in.

Then tell me what you make of what he says……..

9-14-2012 at 23:34:14

He’s apparently recounting events and his thought processes at the time.

Why then, would a completely random stranger, coming upon the sight of a young child stumbling about in the distance, assume that she was ‘playing with HER SIBLING’. Not siblingS. Not other children. Not just mucking about alone. But SPECIFICALLY – AT FIRST I THOUGHT SHE WAS PLAYING WITH HER SIBLING.

A slip of the tongue is no fault of the mind. Except in this case… ;)

9-14-2012 at 23:53:18

Oui, Max is after the RAF. Laat hem maar wat doen.

I was thinking also : it is 3 km. Only the very last part is up hill.

If the RAF guy saw Mollier taking over : I thought between 5 and 10 minutes. If he saw him in the beginning of the road. The thing is not steil. You calculated it. But did he forgot his bike on his downhill run? I think it is not true.

9-15-2012 at 01:13:14

Some people can lie very well but lies will always have consequenties. At one point they will stumble over their own lies. ‘I thought the kid was playing with her sibling’. HALLO? For a RAF the guy was ferm slow. Hope he will not stall.

You may go hide into the the night but we will put you in the light. (General Amin)

9-15-2012 at 05:06:45

Hello!

Your comments are all so interesting.

I also wondered why Martin did not get on to his bike, but ran down the road. Does not make sense.

I also noticed that he said ‘her sibling’. Why not siblings?

I am also surprised at how such a very seriously injured young girl – there were fears that she might not survive! – could be up and travelling to London so very soon.

The car’s wheels turning puzzles me most however. I’ve never seen a stationary car’s wheels turning. I mean, how could the wheels have been turning? If the wheels turn the car is moving either backward and forward.

Jan, I wrote a book about a serial killer who loved the night. No, don’t worry, I’m not saying it was you: he was guillotined in 1946.

Max will be back.

9-15-2012 at 08:06:20

Sibling, is probably a reflection of knowing now that there was just one other child in the car.

But, why make such an assumption, she could have been ‘playing’ with a dog or just showing off to her family.

I thought Martin was on his bike going back down the road and the ‘hikers’ were still in their car, it was commented that the two women remained in the back of the car when the driver and Martin went back up to the scene on foot.

Anyone think that Martin and Al-hilli were the targets, Mollier overtook Martin on the road up, Al-Hilli thought Mollier was his meet, so spoke to him, then the shooting starts, Mollier turns to run away and is shot in the back from a distance, at the same time the car receives bullets, Al-Hilli tries to turn escape but car gets stuck in the verge, all are then systematically shot. Was Martin and Mollier wearing the usual helmets, this would cause the former to possibly not hear anything and the latter be a mistaken identity ?

9-15-2012 at 08:45:41

Can someone tell me, when French cyclists go out for an everyday ride , do they wear there club colours?
The Ugine Cyclo have a very distinctive rig, which could account for RAFman recognising SM as one and would he be wearing the same kit? or something different.
During the interview RAFman did say he spent some time checking the nearby woods because he was fearful and was apologetic that this delayed his reactions.

9-15-2012 at 08:53:17

Have listened carefully to RAF guy again. He said he thought girl was larking about with “A sibling”, not “HER sibling”. He is not reading in what he found out later. Also, he says he made the decision “to go for help on my bike”. He then met car coming up the road with man and two women in it (French hikers) and explained what he had found. The car then went up to the site and RAF guy followed on his bike. Both guys then examined the scene while women stayed in car. French guy then got through to rescue services on his mobile. As they could do nothing more for the victims and were scared that gunman might still be around, they left the scene and went down the road, meeting the rescue services on their way up. All of this is in the full interview, but final part has been omitted in most of the online clips.
As regards the car wheels spinning, this can happen with an automatic gearbox, as engine does not stall, even when car is not moving. My guess is that driver tried to get away in final moments, but put gear into reverse instead of forward. He then went into the banking where wheels started spinning, and his foot was stuck on accelerator after he was shot. BMW is a rear wheel drive car, you can see the wheel dug into the banking. RAF guy was concerned about noise and burning smell from car and decided to break window and switch off ignition – seems sensible, as it protected the crime scene until rescue services arrived.

9-15-2012 at 09:02:47

RAFman would recognise SM as a member of Ugine Cyclo if SM was wearing club lycra kit , which is very distinctive. Would RAFman also be wearing lycra cycle kit?
RAFman was explaining his thinking with the retrospective knowledge that there was in fact a sibling. These were not his actual thoughts at the time.
He has stated that he spent time looking around the woods because he was fearful for himself.
He was probably instructed to NOT say some things by the police, which would explain him picking words carefully.
I would be very surprised if the gun is found, because the forest beyond the layby is a massive unpopulated area with many tracks.

9-15-2012 at 09:24:39

Crazy brother will not care about any witness and will not shoot Mollier multiple times.

If you know each other and from same cycling club–you will greet each other even when overtaking on a BIKE.

It is obvious Mollier was killed first as the mother tried to protect her child & father tried to reverse.

Sisters could still be in France–a ploy to divert attention.

Thanks to all for interesting contributions.

9-15-2012 at 10:00:19

Have you seen this? Is it something police would do to find clues in an ordinary murder? There must be a suspicion something valuable (national security stuff) is missing.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4537634/Breaking-his-silence-Ex-RAF-Brit-first-on-scene-of-French-Alps-massacre.html

14 Sept 2012

POLICE yesterday continued their fingertip search of the Al-Hilli’s £1million home — as French prosecutor Eric Maillaud arrived in Britain.

One cop drilled into the front porch of the house in Claygate, Surrey, and fed in a small video camera in the hunt for clues.

9-15-2012 at 14:07:37

Yeah Litten, where are you??? Is your computer broken or has cindy ordered you to be civil to your lowly competition? We’ll see you guys at noon Wednesday at the OK Corral at Tot Hill; do not forget your bullets!!!

9-15-2012 at 18:15:31

Your Comments Marilyn I’m glad that at last i found somebody who thinks the same way as i do I do agree with you that there is a lot to do with Monsieur Mollier in this assassination i have been trying to tell my friends that the French cyclist played a big role in this attack and regarding the 7 year old girl i think she was let out of the car to relieve herself as i can’t see any public toilet around that place and when things went wrong she was called to get back to the car as fast as possible and by that time the killer or killers were ready to leave and that might explain why she was shot in the shoulder because of her movement and by leaving the area they knocked her out thinking that small girl like this can;t survive a bullet and a strike to the head .but definitely they were professionals.

9-15-2012 at 18:56:30

by the way another thing that came to my mind is that the police should look for a Swiss bank account as you know that the area that they picked up is near Geneva and they can check it if he travelled at any time to Switzerland while camping in France . . Regarding the 4 year old i think she fell asleep under the skirt of her mum and might explain why she stood still for 8 hours because usually children when they are in the car they fall asleep .

9-15-2012 at 19:05:49

Your Comments…………i did send another comment and submitted but i can’t see it here it was regarding the little girl the 4 year old i think she might have fallen asleep and that explains why nobody noticed her for few hours because usually when children travels in car they fall asleep very fast … another thing is that i think Al-Hilli might have travelled to Switzerland and had bank account there because it was told that he used to go by car alone several times while they were in the camp site and is easy to know to check with swiss border and the mileage of the car .

9-15-2012 at 19:34:32

Your CommentsYour Comments…………i did send another comment and submitted but i can’t see it here it was regarding the little girl the 4 year old i think she might have fallen asleep and that explains why nobody noticed her for few hours because usually when children travels in car they fall asleep very fast … another thing is that i think Al-Hilli might have travelled to Switzerland and had bank account there because it was told that he used to go by car alone several times while they were in the camp site and is easy to know to check with swiss border and the mileage of the car .

9-15-2012 at 21:56:54

Your Comments

The Guardian newspaper says Eric Maillaud has dismissed the crazy brother thesis as ‘of little significance’. Industrial espionage could be the biggest show in a crap town like Guildford where rival arms giants BAE/EADS employ so many.

9-15-2012 at 23:26:31

Hi;

Don’t panic please if you do not see your comments on the site immediately. Unfortunately there are crazies on the internet and I therefore receive lots of spam, so I do have to approve each comment. And as I was out all day today (Saturday)I’ve not been on the web.

Do keep the comments coming. You are all very interesting.

9-15-2012 at 23:29:53

How are the investigators sure that the RAF man not is the killer? Is there evidence that he could have not done it?

9-16-2012 at 07:19:53

Hi DZ;
Well, the French investigators are not after him and allowed him to leave France, so they can’t think that he was the killer. Many here are leaving comments that they suspect that he was.

9-16-2012 at 08:30:45

Your Comment………………….good morning Marilyn thank you for responding to my comment I think you have a good menu for your next book this one will be a hit if we could get to the bottom of this story . but as you said is very complicated and we have to gather all informations available to us and try to come to a result . if you remember there was a lot of assassination in Paris after the Iranian revolution and all went under the carpet they even released the killers and they went back to Iran and they got good jobs in the government so i don’t think we could get a good result with these kind of information that they feed us ..

9-16-2012 at 10:21:41

He Marilyn, How did you geuess I was coming back? :)

Anyway, i passively following this case,and your comment section. Seeing the question of DZ and you answer … hmmm, but that is my point too.

You say: The must ‘think’ he is not the killer. But HOW?

Because for me because simple logic it opens up the next option: A ‘cover up’ of some sorts.

Because, the investigators can’t possibly PROOF the RAF guy isn’t the killer -> Yet they let him go? -> By pure logic this results in (the option) that it is all a ‘cover up’

And as such, I’m not more into ‘who is the killer?’ because that I have proven to be mr RAF!!

I’m possibly interested in ‘the next puzzle’ namely. What is there to ‘cover up’ … And then you have to connect the elements of the killed persons … and NO, don’t spill any tears yet over either the brits and the french biker. They could be all connected. Just keep a clear vision and DONT THINK:)

You must not think, you must apply logic. Just ‘fit’ the pieces, like you would to solve Rubik’s cube or a sudoku.

Happy hunting:)

– Max (is perhaps back for the next puzzle;)

9-16-2012 at 10:28:25

To answer the above question myself.

How do the investigators ‘know’ mr RAF is NOT the killer?
-> Answer: because they know he IS(!) the killer

You see the beauty of this ‘logic’? :)

It is the only elegant ‘solution’ to this (part of the) puzzle.

And with that ‘solution’ we (at least I will) can go on to the next puzzle: What is it all about?

– Max

(PS: I’m good in logic, part of my job;)

9-16-2012 at 12:01:12

Shushu; the book I am planning now is on the assassination of Princes Diana and her lover, Dodi Al-Fayed. Yes – assassination: I believe she was murdered. I also know how it was done and who had made it possible.

9-16-2012 at 12:04:40

Are you a cop? Or a P.I.?

Is jy van Holland?

I knew you would be back, because a crime story is like when the peanuts or crisps are passed at a party, one really does not want any, yet takes some and then one can’t stop eating.

9-16-2012 at 12:15:38

Marilyn–I was hoping you are right & the killer will be caught soon.

RAF guy may have been allowed to leave to collect more evidence. The case will not be solved quickly–if the incident was state sponsored.

9-16-2012 at 12:21:22

New disclosure of weapon used, a Luger P08
Sources close to the investigation have disclosed that Saad al-Hilli, a British engineer, his wife, mother in law and a French cyclist, were shot with a Luger P08, a highly-distnctive weapon which was standard issue to the Swiss Army. Investigation has been scaled back.

Another false lead? Parabellum-pistol is more or less a collector’s item.

9-16-2012 at 12:52:46

I am now quite concerned that the French investigators are deliberately making this seem a purely UK issue perhaps because they actually KNOW otherwise, which is why the RAFman has been allowed to go and speak openly to the press. They may have a good reason to do this. I hope so. There has been some criticism of this approach in papers here.
I really don’t know why this grusome killings worries me so much . . . but my daughter lives close-ish by and I have some experience of demented behaviour.
Regarding evidence. What proof is there that it was NOT a robbery.? or an act of jealous recrimination.?
I totally agree about the extra-ordinary co-incidental connections of the victims/witnesses but wonder if this might happen with any random lot of people.

9-16-2012 at 13:02:46

I don’t know why this case worries me so much other than my daughter lives fairly close. . . . it just seems all wrong.
It looks like the French Investigators are deliberately giving out misinformation. They probably have a good reason of course. Perhaps because they know it isn’t just an ‘English’ killing on French soil. This approach and some police methods have been criticised here.
Although there are some amazing con-incidentals between the victims/witnesses . . I still think there is plenty of scope for random or crime of passion in the mix.

9-16-2012 at 14:06:46

Oui; Yes we can ask whether is another bit of non-information information.

9-16-2012 at 14:08:03

J. Cave;

I think your daughter will be OK. This was a targeted killing,not a random one. Not that I know for certain … and we do know what happens between the cup and the lip …

9-16-2012 at 15:01:36

Apply logic

BUT, don’t go like ‘mr RAF seems a nice guy’ … because that is as dumb as saying that you ‘prefer’ the number 5 in a sudoku;)

As to all options open (like ‘robbery’ etc.)?
That is true. The best way to deal with that is to ‘rank’ the options.

Just go ask yourself ‘what is more likely?’

I do that with ‘mr RAF’

What is more likely?:

A. it was mr RAF (the man we know was on the scene on his own account)
B. is was not mr RAF, but somebody else and mr RAF didn’t see/hear anything

And put a number on this. Like 70% A and 30% B. Than you will first dig in to A … and if that proofs not to work, than you take option B.

Just optimize your search process. Don’t burn energy in options which are hihgly unlikely (I don’t go for the ‘aliens from mars’ … yet;)

– Max

9-16-2012 at 15:13:34

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-islamic-rants-1326315

Well, this link, seems to provide the most credible information I’ve come across so far on this case.

9-16-2012 at 15:38:51

Mick,Thank you very much for this. I agree with you it’s good and it’s new and it is different. Paints a totally different picture of Al-Hilli.

For example his friend talking to the Mirror says: “He would forever be talking about how the Israelis were taking over the world and specifically taking over America. He hated Israeli Jews taking big banks and strongholds in America.

“He thought 9/11 was an inside job by the Israelis to create hatred against the Arabic nations. After 9/11 his involvement in chatrooms increased dramatically. He was very passionate about his beliefs. He didn’t believe the Jews should be in Israel. He thought the land should be Palestinian.

“When I heard Saad and Ikbal had been murdered my first thought was, “What has he said? What has he done?’ I think it’s possible he has offended someone and Mossad has taken offence and put a hit out on him.”

Thanks for this.

9-16-2012 at 15:40:29

Max, did you miss this which I sent over a while ago?

Are you a cop? Or a P.I.?

Is jy van Holland?

I knew you would be back, because a crime story is like when the peanuts or crisps are passed at a party, one really does not want any, yet takes some and then one can’t stop eating.

9-16-2012 at 15:50:40

Yes – it certainly gives a plausible motive.

9-16-2012 at 15:55:20

Your Comments

To me it seems more likely the RAF guy was there to provide security for the French victim or the Halli’s but failed.

Returning to the controversial BAE/EADS merger, today’s Observer newspaper says the
proposed deal only became public as the result of a’ leak’ and took the French government by surprise.

9-16-2012 at 15:56:35

I’m guessing the next part of the investigation (if what is written in that article is true) is to trawl through whatever forums he has posted on.

9-16-2012 at 16:03:35

Tony, the French are usually secretive …

9-16-2012 at 16:04:44

Mick, I’m sure they are doing so already.

So I will say: Hi cops! Want to leave a comment?

9-16-2012 at 16:14:38

lol @ your ‘Hi Cops’

Did I mention I love all police investigators? :)

9-16-2012 at 16:34:24

Marilyn.

I’m not a cop, nor a P.I. I’m Max. I solve sudoku’s but never solved the Rubik’s cube (on my own)

I use my energy in a optimal way, because I have also other , more ‘light’ things to do.

My main focus is mr RAF. Is he in on it or out? From there I will continue. If the position of mr RAF is not clear, other investigations are without direction. That does not mean other investigations are useless, as they will reveal the (unclear) position of mr RAF anyway … but it will be a indirect way.

The direct way is to determine the position of mr RAF and go from there.

The indirect way is to leave mr RAF and go by other stuff and reverse engineer the position of mr RAF. It is possible, only less optimal.

For now, I’ll just wait to see what comes up. If something ‘important’ comes up I’ll fit that into the picture.

– Max

9-16-2012 at 16:47:31

Max – the problem with taking a purely logical view of things is that you’re not allowing for ‘illogical’ behaviour or human behaviour. We are not all logical, reasonable or predictable

What are the three things they normally look for when prosecuting? I think it’s motive, means and opportunity? (I stand to be corrected!).

When there are no concrete leads, you are stuck with looking for motive I guess.

9-16-2012 at 16:55:13

I’ve also been thinking from the start, that this crime was in some way, less of a punitive killing, but moreso a ‘warning’ type killing. Making an example of them in some way. Intended to reinforce a strong message.

I had thought though, that if that was the case, then the motive would be more evident. That is to say, that it would be clear to all to whom the message was intended for. Otherwise, the ‘message’ doesn’t get to whoever it should?

But maybe it was purely punitive?

9-16-2012 at 17:02:20

Btw – the reason I feel it is more ‘demonstrative’ than ‘punitive’ is the fact that the ‘target(s)’ didn’t suffer. They are dead. Shot. Died instantly.

Punitive killings tend to include ‘torture’.

What do you guys think?

9-16-2012 at 17:34:04

Mirror article is interesting. It could indicate that Al Hilli (AH) had been under surveillance for some time by people behind these murders.

It seems clear that AH was waiting to meet someone (Mollier?). Local builder says he saw AH car going up forest road between 2.30/3pm. Killings took place around 3.40pm. No evidence that AH family were walking or picnicking. Would they just sit in the car for no reason? Why did he take his family with him? – probably to avoid arousing suspicion while he hung around waiting for Mollier to arrive – looks just like a normal family outing with his daughter playing near the car.

Killer could have been following AH on his motor bike, hiding his bike in the woods nearby (RAF guy saw motor bike coming down after killings.) Killer then got into position in the woods where he could watch AH car in the layby. If AH was the only target, killer could have taken him out well before Mollier arrived on the scene. But if both AH and Mollier were targets, the killer had to wait until Mollier appeared – maybe he also had to get possession of some important items/documents which AH/Mollier were exchanging. Tragically, AH’s family suffered the same fate because they were witnesses. The 7 year old’s life was spared (just), but she probably knows little of what happened, and may remember only that there was “one bad man”.

Will we ever know the truth?

9-16-2012 at 18:23:37

Murder is with intent or grave & sudden provocation. In this instance, the killer has made sure that the people concerned are dead–2 bullets to the head— (Brazilian student killed by special forces in the underground tube)

Maybe–French cyclist was delivering a CD which could have been transmitted within a short space of time. Saad was good with computers.

Killer acted before the damage could be done.

Or, personal issues between Mollier & RAF guy who spoke with confidence of a support from higher authorities but his statements are suspicious to say the least.

Well, the world is looking towards French for credible detective work.

9-16-2012 at 19:05:30

@Scottie, Mick

‘RAF guy saw motor bike’?

Nope … it is

‘RAF tells that he saw motor bike’

There is NO evidence for this. Don’t put something in the mix which is not 100% true:)

If the RAF guy tells us he saw ‘a pot of gold’?

Point is, eveerybody is believing the RAF guy but there is NO evidence for his story. If there is NO evidence you should skip it.

I device a simple, coherent, elegant ‘solution’ with the least possible of extra’s (uncertanties)

- AH wants to meet Mollier
- RAF wants to eliminate both
- RAF guy follows Mollier (bike follows bike is ‘best’ solution)
- Mollier brings RAF guy to meetingplace
- RAF kills all

- RAF guy makes up stories

This is up to now the easiest way to explain why the parties were where the were. And there is no need to bring more things into the mix

Only thing from here is to double check this scenario. And to find a ‘motive’. (because the opportunities are covered in this scenario)

But it is SURE that this scenario is compatible with EVERYTHING we know!

– Max

9-16-2012 at 20:07:49

Mick, no you did not say you love all police investigators.

Just occurred to me: you’re not a cop are you?

I’ve already thought Max was one, now I am going to focus on you, Mick.

9-16-2012 at 20:11:07

Max, do you think this was about the Rubik cube? Al-Hilli solved it and Mollier was going to hand £1 million over to him for his secret formula,but RAF guy heard of it and stopped the deal?

Makes sense to me…

Anyway, do keep up the detective work. I am finding your comments very interesting.

9-16-2012 at 20:15:23

Did the French police ever give details of in which positions were the three dead in the car? Slumped forward? Lying back? Sideways? What about the expression on their faces? Screaming? Crying? Such things are also what investigators study.

Bizarre, bizarre, bizarre. But in two hours starts a new day and week. Maybe this week this hideous slaughter will be solved.

9-16-2012 at 20:16:15

Mick; it would not be possible for one person to torture three adults.

9-16-2012 at 20:17:19

Scottie, I agree that the Mirror article is the most interesting so far of all,but we have to bear in mind it is the Mirror …

9-16-2012 at 20:18:06

AD, the world might be looking for some time.

9-16-2012 at 20:32:09

Let’s just say I’m an expert in leaving out unnecessary stuff. Do this and you will uncover the core. Most people don’t have that talent. They think ‘more is better’.

A ‘crazy brother’ on a ‘motorbike’, ‘hiding in the bushess’, killing a ‘unlucky bypasser’ …

… sure, that is ‘more’ … but is it ‘better’? Nope, because you need even ‘more more’ to explain the 4 things that you have just introduced.

So, the RAF guy is the killer … just ‘proof’ he is not. Go ahead;)

9-17-2012 at 06:07:06

Max,

If the RAF guy was the killer, he could have biked on instead of to stop by the french hikers and ask for help. He could have looked away from them so they did not see his face. And bike on. The alps are full of bikers, let them go search. By the time the hikers would have reached the spot and called for help, he would already be longtime home. Mostly hitman avoid to come with their head in the news.

9-17-2012 at 06:40:29

Jan,

Not nessecarily:

1. The RAF guy is a known figure around there (not an unknown ‘hitman’)

2. The RAF guy must count in that he was seen biking in that area, possibly close to Mollier, going the same route

3. That route leading directly to the killing spot (I think, I’m not totally sure of this)

So from this (RAF guy counting in he was seen) he certainly has options to tell:

1. He was in the area, saw AH, Mollier still alive, passed the killing spot and knows nothing
2. He was in the area, but took another route and did not arrive at killing spot (heard nothing?)
3. He was in the area, arrived as first on the killing spot (his account)
4. Denies he was there

RAF guy counts in that he was ‘seen’ and therefor takes option ’3′ as his story.

It is compatible with the facts.

Better is to PROOF beyond doubt that the RAF guy couldn’t have done it. And go from there.

As, there is perhaps no easy way to ‘proof’ it we must wait for more clues. One clue could be a ‘motive’. If the RAF has a ‘motive’ it makes the case stronger. If there is no motive the case will slip.

The 7 yr girl is a prime witness. I didn’t follow all progress on her but her account (how minimal it may be) must fit perfectly with my scenario (otherwise my scenario will be weakened)

– Max

9-17-2012 at 07:01:54

The timing is a not good overthought. If they did it before noon or after 6 pm, or when the weather was bad, there would have been less chance for sudden witnesses like Mollier, RAF and Philippe D and his female friends. They nearly came all together out at the scene! Between 3 and 4 pm is the ‘busiest’ time in the woods. There must be a reason for the timing.

Maybe they placed a ‘bug’ under the car? Maybe Hilli knew that they were after him and went hide in the woods? Thinking : ok, they did not follow me and here they are not going to come look for me. But via the GPS they tracked him down. Like that they could also have immediately found out he changed from camping.

The police is now via cctv and images they took at péages etc trying to find out if the BMW was followed from in England. Good idea but a lot of work. With such a ‘bug’ they did not have to follow the BMW directly but they likely followed its route. Cops have automatic ‘convoy software’ to find out if it was followed all the way.

9-17-2012 at 07:12:57

Mister AH was such a nice man
Mister Mollier was such a nice man
Mister RAF is such a nice man

Yet there was a brutal murder with those 3 at the same spot at the ‘wrong’ time. How unlucky:)

Be critical. How do YOU know mr such and such was a ‘nice’ man. Answer: You DONT … you only read this in the newspaper.

Newspapers which by pure magic instantly ‘knew’ that Mollier was an ‘unlucky bypasser’ … but HOW did the newspapers know that?? They didn’t they just ASSUMED and now tah is taken as a basis.

I assume nothing. I start from the cold facts. No ‘nice’ guys;)

– Max

9-17-2012 at 07:46:32

Max,

If the RAF guy was the killer, he would not necessarely have driven together with Mollier, or even seen him. He could have been waiting there in the bushes. He could have come another way. To get quickly away he would have taken the ‘main’ road downhill. And simply ignore the hikers very hard. Who knows all those bikers that pass before their door over there? With their helmets and goggles. And all the same bright coloured costumes. Driving way too fast.

Zainab said she saw only one ‘bad’ man. If that one had a bright-coloured bike outfit she would have probably remembered.

Why should the RAF guy have to prove his own innocence? For the same price YOU were the RAF guy. I mean : it must not be fun to be the RAF guy if he didn’t do it. And if he did it also not. Because then the plan must have gone terribly wrong somewhere and his further career as a hit man he can as well forget.

9-17-2012 at 07:54:11
9-17-2012 at 07:56:39

Your Comments……GM to all investigators this might be interesting ..i found it last night …http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-bears-eerie-1307564

9-17-2012 at 08:02:22

I have read that it is a different gun to one reported/assumed by the press, in fact an extremely old fashioned model that needs specialist cartridges, but easily obtainable in that region because people have them left over from the war. If true, why the suppression of the fact.?
My guts, as opposed to logic, are saying crime of passion gone wrong. The only real connection between the victims/witnesses is that they love the beautiful landscape and tranquil retreat from modernity of the area (ironically).

9-17-2012 at 08:30:39

Your Comments….. ……Max i have a question for you who and how the killer would know about this meeting unless that they were bugged or from an insider now who is the insider ?

9-17-2012 at 08:46:52

@Jan and Shushu

Scenario: The RAF guy knows of a ‘meeting’ of Mollier with AH(?), but doesn’t know where

->

1. So, he can NOT ambush (wait in the bushes)

2. But he CAN (and must) follow his lead, Mollier … and he does so by using his bike. Bike follows bike seems completely normal (no one suspects a biker)

This is completely compatible with the facts! You only have to turn around the story of mr RAF … and we can because there is 0% proof that mr RAF story is the truth!

Again, I’ll state that I’m NOT ‘after’ mr RAF. I don’t know the guy, he could be completely nice guy:) But I’m just piecing the stuff together as I see them.

My scenario holds, and even more so, my scenario is the best (easiest) compatible with the facts.

Again, just RPOOF the scenario to be wrong. I would be happy. But the problem is, you, and I, can’t PROOF it to be wrong so we have to keep it as a, and for me as THE BEST, option at the moment.

– Max

9-17-2012 at 08:56:44

However, I will point out a slight weakness

mr RAF says he first was in the lead, and only later was overtaken by Mollier.

Why did he say this?

Options:

1. To ‘explain’ that Mollier drove faster and to ‘explain’ that there were a few minutes between the killing and him arriving at the scene. And/or to ‘hide’ that fact that he was ‘following’ Mollier all the way (suspicious)

2. It really happened like so

But 2. is a weakness in my scenario. Because I assume mr RAF was ‘following’ Mollier

Now, if there are witnesses who have seen both Mollier and mr RAF on the bikes. Those can put the 2 bikers in the right order

Anyway, even with option 2 it is possible mr RAF was following Mollier, but option 1 would make more sense.

Witnesses of both bikers?? Are there any?

– Max

9-17-2012 at 09:29:43

And ‘poor’ Mollier?

Why was Mollier found dead within meter from AH?

If it was an ambush of AH alone, wouldn’t it be more logic that the killers would have waited a few seconds for Mollier to pass??

And the shooting hadn’t started. Because if it had, Mollier would have escape and not ‘stand in the middle of a killing’

AH and Mollier both killed within a few meter radius points directly to a ‘meeting’ between the 2 (best option BY FAR!)

-> a ‘meeting’

A. You can AMBUSH a ‘meeting’ when you know where the ‘meeting’ is held
B. You must FOLLOW a lead if you do not know that ‘meeting’ place

-> For now, mr RAF meets requirement B

– Max

9-17-2012 at 09:43:30

Your Comments….Max I do accept your theory that means the killer didn’t know Mr AH he rented a place in that village to watch over Mollier and Mollier was under constant surveillance from the killer but would it be possible that RAF man was only the watch man and when he made sure that something is going on with Mollier he gave the green light for the professionals to act

9-17-2012 at 09:55:09

Your Comments………. if i’m right that explains why he said he was in lead from mr M then Mr M. took over because he knew exactly the area and he knew that where the road will lead to make sure that he will not arise any suspicions from Mr M. he was in lead then he slow down to let him go to his meeting to me it seems that he didn’t know who is the other party and therefore he didn’t know that the other party was coming with his family otherwise he could have got rid of both of them without involving the family when i say he would have got rid of them i mean to give the green light to the shooter (s)

9-17-2012 at 10:07:04

Shushu,

If you let your imagination going the possible options/scenario’s will be dazzling. Best stick to what we’ve got.

- Try to fit in the (minimal, if any) input of the 7 yr girl
- Try to find witnesses of the bikers and AH driving up there (chrono)
- Try to establish if there is a connection between AH and Mollier (imho there must be)
- Try to find a motive for the AH/Mollier meeting (why was there a meeting?)
- Try to find a link to the killings for mr RAF
- Locate the gun

(speculation: mr RAF has (past) ties to the military. mr RAF he knew Mollier. There was a ‘meeting’ to be held. For some reason AH and Mollier had to be eliminated. mr RAF was ‘asked’ to do the dirty job -> This all implies a ‘secret’ thing going on … trouble with speculation is that you can invent a zillion stories … but they certainly make good movies:)

– Max

9-17-2012 at 10:14:42

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2012/09/14/chevaline-une-fillette-parle_846476

We knew this, but to restate, the 7 yr girl only saw 1 man!

This is completely compatible with mr RAF being the (1 man) killer

(If the girl had said she’d seen ‘a group’ … but no … 1 man:)

– Max

9-17-2012 at 10:42:01

You could ask ‘why did mr RAF take all the risks to open up?’

-> Because he was offered ‘protection’ before hand

Speculation:

mr RAF was asked tot do the ‘dirty job’ AND mr RAF was offered ‘protection’. He only had to device a ‘credible’ story because he knew (it was promised in the deal) that he would be ‘protected’ and pulled out. Just keep a straight face for some weeks and act the ‘hero’.

Isn’t that what about happened?

– Max

9-17-2012 at 13:33:50

From the same article

‘Le «découvreur» britannique de la scène de crimes, qui grimpait à vélo la route de la combe d’Ire, avait vu redescendre un 4×4 vert ou sombre et une moto.’

But, that is mr RAF who says this:)

Now, suppose he IS the killer … with that remarks he is actively spreading desinformation … hwich makes sense to ‘stall’ the investigations. Everybody is looking for those vehicles, but they should be checking mr RAF:)

But they don’t -> hence the ‘protection’ is already in place.

Makes sense, and is 100% compatible with what we know for fact.

– Max

9-17-2012 at 13:39:43

So, the mystery continues…….

It’s a good point about witnesses of the cyclists.

To me, there seems to be no correlation whatsoever between any of the witness’ statements.

Philippe D, working at the bottom of the road in Chevaline, looks up from his work and notices the BMW driving up that fateful road. He remembers, as seems unusual to him that tourists would drive up there. Did he see anyone else? Did he go inside/leave where he was working – hence not noticing any other cyclists/drivers/cars/motorbikes/jeeps? Or if he was working in the same place the entire afternoon – why didn’t he see any other traffic?

Then there was the coming home from shopping? She apparently saw a small Peugeot speeding down the hill on the wrong side of the road.

Then, from what I can gather, RAF man, at least in initial media reports, claims to have seen a motorbike and a 4×4?

Then, there is the man with 2 women who came on the scene and phoned emergency services. From my understanding, they were driving up to the carpark to go cycling. When they came across Mr. RAF coming down the hill. What car were they driving? From my understanding, RAF guy stopped the car, some ‘metres’ from the carpark/shooting scene. Driver/hiker got out of the car and walked with Mr. RAF up to the scene?

None of the witness accounts seem to correlate? Or is it incorrect reporting by the journalists?

The other thing is that in early reports, Mr. RAF was stated as claiming Mr. Mollier overtook him on his bicycle. However, in the BBC interview – he states that ‘he had seen him up ahead earlier’ (not exact quote).

The media coverage/information being released seems to change daily!!

I’d love to see a chronology of events based on witness statements.

I’m still wondering about Mr. RAF. I still don’t believe he is completely innocent. I suspect, if he was involved, he used the ‘story’ about moving the victims to account for blood on his person, non?

My other query would be towards Marilyn. What are French/British relations like in terms of if it had been a British Secret Service Operation – would the French go along with a ‘cover-up’?

And no – not a policeman – just an armchair sleuth! :)

9-17-2012 at 13:44:53

Apologies, this paragraph should read

Then, there is the man with 2 women who came on the scene and phoned emergency services. From my understanding, they were driving up to the carpark to go HIKING (not cycling). When they came across Mr. RAF coming down the hill. What car were they driving? From my understanding, RAF guy stopped the car, some ‘metres’ from the carpark/shooting scene. Driver/hiker got out of the car and walked with Mr. RAF up to the scene?

9-17-2012 at 14:32:15

Everthing correlates just fine:)

But of course you have to leave out what mr RAF tells. Which only is pretty NORMAL considering him being the PRIME SUSPECT.

(perhaps the ‘speeding Peugeot’ should be looked into)

Everything ‘clicks’ (for now) as you set mr RAF as the single killer

My question is simply ‘Why isn’t he prime suspect’? And I know already the answer … because he has ‘protection’

People can say they dont believe this. But ‘believing’ has nothing to do with this. You don’t ‘believe’ in a Sudoku, you just solve it:)

The 7 yr girl is the main point now. She already said it was 1(!) man. If only she could remember a bit more. Did she see ‘our hero’ … because mr RAF says he saw her walking, so by equivalence she should/could have seen him (at the position where mr RAF claims he was … namely on his bike!)

If she states she ‘saw a man arriving on a bike’ (before she collapsed) -> Then mr RAF is prolly in the clear

But she didn’t. And that whole ‘collapsing’ story could be completely made up

Her statement is ESSENTIAL. The more she remembers, the clearer the picture will become.

– Max

9-17-2012 at 14:39:14

Lynda, Shushu, Max, Jan

Very interesting development the Daily Mail headline, this is what I wrote in my diary @Booman some 12 hours after the horrific shooting.

Could French victim of the Alpine massacre have been the main target? French police admit cyclist may have led ‘double life’

Max, as I stated above, look at the map of the forest and Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Iré. The exact location of parking space is a bit south to where the map shows “Mont Benoit” on the left. There are two roads leading up the hill to the parking space. They meet approx. 150 meter north of the place of the execution (Sylvain Mollier) and the massacre of the al-Hilli family who just happened to be there. Possible sting operation by a foreign intelligence agency for documents metallurgy zirconium by R&D Areva/Cézus which Sylvain Mollier wanted to sell/deliver to a Iranian agent. This agent happened to be part of a sting operation by Mossad/MI6/DGSE. It doesn’t matter which nation because of close cooperation anyway. In the first articles, it was mentioned 20 British intelligence officials arrived from Paris within hours. No one touched the crime scene for 8 hours, remember. The high number of victims indicated something had gone not quite according to plan. Because of Iran sanctions and support for Netanyahu war rhetoric, it’s not opportune to put blame where it belongs: Israel’s Mossad. President Obama was not pleased with earlier Mossad assassinations of Irans nuclear scientists in Tehran.

RAF cyclist lives nearby in Lathuile (see above LinkedIn information) and could be part of the operation setting up meeting with Sylvain Mollier. The assassin on motorbike or in 4×4 car made his getaway after shooting up not only their target Sylvain Mollier but also the al-Hilli family who witnessed the murder. Theforeign agent could take an alternate route down to Chevaline. The assassin was not aware of the 4 year old.

9-17-2012 at 14:53:49

Mick Fox;

To reply to your question – My other query would be towards Marilyn. What are French/British relations like in terms of if it had been a British Secret Service Operation – would the French go along with a ‘cover-up’?

Yes, Mick,they will. They have already done so: In 1997 they went along with the cover up when Princess Diana was assassinated.

9-17-2012 at 14:55:02

Oui, they are searching searching searching.

9-17-2012 at 15:03:46

Oui, could you plz annotate (mark) the EXACT spot on this map http://files.maxqubit.com/annecykillingmap.png (and mail it to me maxqubit@gmail.com)

I have difficulty to see EXACTLY where that parkingplace is.

Thx

– Max

9-17-2012 at 15:34:03

On a lighter note—As French publication has made Royal T—-, public property–will it affect any co-operation between French & British police.

9-17-2012 at 15:36:32

The French printed media has lost interested in the case. They now run just a couple of paras about it on an inside page.

9-17-2012 at 15:40:25

First comes denial, then agents disappear

The 1985 bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland harbor, a state-sanctioned bombing – shrewdly planned and executed by the French secret service agents. Eventually, prime minister Laurent Fabius appeared on television and told a shocked public: “Agents of the DGSE (Secret Service) sank this boat. They acted on orders.”

Only two agents ever stood trial. Dominique Prieur and Alain Mafart, who had posed as Swiss tourists, pleaded guilty to charges of manslaughter and wilful damage, attracting sentences of 10 and 7 years. A UN negotiated settlement meant that they were transferred to Hao atoll, a French military base in French Polynesia. They were both released within less than two years.

The spy who infiltrated the Greenpeace New Zealand office ahead of the bombing, Christine Cabon, evaded arrest in Israel. She hasn’t been seen since. The whereabouts of the combat frogman with the alias Jean-Michel Berthelot – one of the two divers believed to have planted the bombs – are unknown. Most of those involved in what happened that night in an Auckland harbour have simply disappeared.

9-17-2012 at 16:50:38

Thanks for that link Oui. I wonder are there many other cases where Secret Service have admitted involvement. Makes you wonder really…

9-17-2012 at 17:00:49

To Max,

Info has been mailed

9-17-2012 at 18:53:03

A few days ago I read a comment posted below the Orange ‘actualites’ relating to this case, someone posted that Sylvain was nothing more than a worker at the factory which is in Ugine, where he lived. Hindsight I should have copied, too late now, but if you search through French websites you will find a reference that he worked at Ugitech, again in Ugine. He does not appear to be a nuclear scientist as certain press would have you believe, just an ordinary bloke in a factory that produces parts for Areva. The authorties have allowed his funeral to take place but not cremation, in case they need to dig him up again – why allow the body to be returned to the family, many are kept in cold storage for years. I suspect the French Gendarmes are fully aware of the timescale of events – who has an opinion as to where the spraying of shots came from, my suspicion is from the clearing/car park, which means the killer was already in place, Sylvain an unfortunate consequence, I just don’t buy that he was involved.

As for the gun now being a Luger, my husband had one here, his late father had ‘acquired’ it during the Second World War, I did persuade hime to get rid of it via a gun shop some 50 kms from where we live. If this info is correct, regarding the weapon, then I believe the ‘crime ‘ to be European and not British – I can’t see any hired hitman using such an old weapon.

9-17-2012 at 19:11:12

AD – NO, in no way.

9-17-2012 at 19:11:20

It could be that Hilli, Mollier, RAF and a forth ‘aeronautical/nuclear engineer’ held a secret meeting that went wrong. Over money for information or so. The forth one shot everybody but RAF. Fore some reason he left RAF complete. RAF, more then content he was still whole, acts then as the witness who came first at the scene. What else could he do anyway?

Seen that Hilli was there with his family and the 2 others came with their bike, nobody expected troubles. So it could be a ‘business’ deal that went wrong, rather then a murder set-up.

Maybe only RAF knew the forth guy, but he did probably also not know this was gonna happen? Maybe he didn’t know him well enough?

Maybe the forth shot them, put wat he wanted in his pocket and disappeared. Not before saying to RAF : bonne chance with it! See you later.

9-17-2012 at 19:13:07

Lynda, The gun’s an old one, yes. The French said that right in the beginning.

A nutcase would of course use such an old weapon. My money is still on a nutcase!!

9-17-2012 at 19:15:07

Mick Fox,

Admitted or get caught … passport row New Zealand (2004); Dubai liquidation and passport rage (2010); poisoning Khaled Mashaal in Jordan (2005); Christchurch earthquake killed Mossad agent (2011); designer Iraq’s super cannon killed by ‘executive action‘ in Belgium (US citizen liquidated by Israel’s Mossad in 1990).

The latter case has some similarity in circumstances and possible motive with the Annecy assassination. A never ending story …

9-17-2012 at 19:45:44

Marilyn,

The gun was old, but it worked fine so to see. Maybe the person is used to use this weapon. Old cars are better then new cars if properly looked after. If the Swiss and the German army used it, it must be good. And it is common. It could even be the Luger that was from Lynda’s husband.

9-17-2012 at 20:14:59

The Luger from my late father-in-law was sold to a gun shop many miles from this event and many years ago – and hey why not repurchased and used, very unlikely. My point is that there are many old weapons floating about in mainland Europe, which is why if, and a big IF the cops are telling the truth, finally, it is not obvious to be a UK person tracking them, using such a weapon.

Only when the cops coem clean on all they know will we be able to grasp a smidgen of what happened, and as Max would no doubt say ‘innocent until proven guilty’. But, why …..?

9-17-2012 at 20:23:34

Oui, thx for the map

I’ll see what comes up in the coming days, but I fear it won’t be much. The girl won’t deliver much clues. The gun and mags should still be lying in the woods somewhere.

With the ‘dirt job’ done, mr RAF should start to watch his six, because I’m not sure how solid the ‘promises’ are:)

* I’m putting the investigation ‘on hold’ for the 2nd time

– Max

9-17-2012 at 20:30:51

Max … see you tomorrow ….

9-17-2012 at 20:33:59

Oui – That last case – regarding Bull – is very interesting.

If this involves mainland Europe secret services (or otherwise), that clears Mr. RAF then? Although I’m sure Max will have something to say on that!

I’m wondering whether the choice of weapon was perhaps used to throw in a red herring? Chosen specifically to throw us all off the scent?

9-17-2012 at 21:18:44

My money is still on Marylin whose money is still on the nut case!

To me the gun pretty much talks: it’s a local crime, it’s a local killer, other than Eric Maillard stated the reasons for that crime may not at all be in the UK and for the violence with which it has been carried out I even think it might be a crime of passion.

Anyway, French policy are throwing new bones to the press like everyday: when Vinneman says “Was he [Sylvain Mollier, AC] really a gentleman? MAYBE he led a double life.” the Daily Mail is already sure about him leading a double life.

My money is on Sylvain as the primary target, but only for reasons like his first wife or somebody from her family taking revenge. To me he was just, as Lynda stated it, “a bloke” working for a subsidiary of Areva.

110,000 people are working in the French nuclear industry. My neighbor, father of two, works in a company where he assembles devices to be sent to nuclear power plants (we have two in the surroundings). Sometimes he brings them himself. If he’d get robbed and shot tomorrow which I do not at all hope, everybody who’s a little bit into conspiracy theories would say he had “nuclear connections” and “was about to sell something” which in fact would not be true.

For all others than emotional reasons, my bet is the al-Hillis were the primary targets, but even then it could have be a revenge against Iqbal or her mother or both.

9-17-2012 at 21:30:19

So a vehicle supposedly follows AH and family from UK, via Bordeaux property then purchases an old gun (most are sold decommisioned as ‘antiques’ )

A new report says that a Will has been found and 4 million quid in a Swiss Bank Account

9-17-2012 at 21:46:44

Your Comments Marilyn , Max ,OUI and …..anybody interested …. i was looking at the French news and found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=z_wYhPUQlgM&NR=1

9-18-2012 at 07:07:47

i did send this link yesterday but don’t see it here i taught might be interesting to see . http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=z_wYhPUQlgM&NR=1

9-18-2012 at 07:59:17

Alexander this is not a crime of passion the French and the British know a lot about this crime but don’t feed us to me this has a lot to do with the nuclear plant and AH sympathy for Shiite people there is a link between SM and AH is not by coincidence that these 2 guys are at the same place and the same time why he didn’t pick up another camping area in France also as i said before AH must have gone to Switzerland before this meeting …as you can see they are very near the border. all these middle eastern people have accounts is safe places also they have safe with lots of documents specially if you were connected to an overthrown leader .

9-18-2012 at 08:16:10

i have a question for all of you specially for Max (Poirot ) don’t you think that all of these are some how connected : the Chevaline ,the closing of US and Canadian + other European country Embassy in middle east ,and the film released recently regarding the prophet ? i think we are in the brink of something big happening ….

9-18-2012 at 08:42:00

To shushu

It’s a big, big world of 7 billion human souls. This affair is but a grain of sand on the beach, the French are focused on daily survival and the topless photo’s of royalty of course. The Annecy killings and the blasphemy video are yesterday’s news. Nothing to see here, just move on.

9-18-2012 at 09:08:56

I’m still on ‘hold’ because I’ve nothing to add (yet), but I can advice:)

@shushu, thx for the video (I did see the animation before)

-> The animation makes clear Mollier was close to the car. It is practically IMPOSSIBLE he was there by coincidence!

As I said before:

- Either he heard shots and could have escaped
- OR the killer could let him pass (wait a fec secs)

But no he is right in the middle -> By pure logic this connects him with AH!

KEY = mr RAF

If he is ‘in’ -> might be international intrigue
If he is ‘out’ -> might my family, money, sex, revenge thing

If you have ever solved a ‘Sudoku’ you will notice that the first few numbers are easy, then you come to a point that is difficult (key number), after you crack this, it becomes easy again (because everything follows from each other)

mr RAF = the key number

You have to crack this to explain the puzzle. I’m 100% sure of this:)

As I have atm no more info/clues I can’t advance. Therefor my investigation is on ‘hold’ though I’ll be watching the news:)

– Max

9-18-2012 at 09:31:54

MAX tks for your reply yes i agree with you that Mr RAF has a lot to do with this and i do solve sudoku also i wonder why the british took over this case so quickly yet there is a French guy involved too and the RAF guy is also crucial for the French investigators

9-18-2012 at 13:28:51

Oui, yes, today’s newspapers here in France did not mention it.

And daily people are dying in Syria and Irak and Afghanistan…

9-18-2012 at 13:29:22

Shushu, No, I do not think there is a connection.

9-18-2012 at 13:32:00

Shushu, Three of the slain were British and domiciled in England, so this is why the British police came on to the scene. A trial, should there ever be one,would however have to held in France, probably in Lyon (Lyons),

9-18-2012 at 15:32:40

Marilyn yes i know they are British but what i said is that i don’t know why the RAF guy went so quickly to UK he was witness to the French man too but there was no mention of Mr Mollier regarding the RAF man . they didn’t search Mr Mollier house or if they did there was no mention of that but they even got the bomb squad in surrey for Mr AH very quickly these are things that i don’t understand

9-18-2012 at 15:32:43

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2199670-14DEA31E000005DC-476_964x834.jpg (I have backup link)

See the mud on the car near the left rear wheel? And mr RAF tells the wheels were spinning?

-> They were spinning backwards

(So probably AH tried to turn, went backwards, but was shot before he could go forward -> hence the gear was still in reverse. (Strange that the forwheels are straight))

It is strange that mr RAF was worried that the car might ‘lunge forward’ (his account) while the car was probably in reverse!

I was constantly puzzled why the car had wheels spinning, yet the car didn’t move … being in ‘reverse’ can explain this … and the ‘mud’ is a positive clue for this.

Not enough to ‘catch’ mr RAF on, but a tiny ‘hole nevertheless;)

– Max

PS: Yep Marilyn, I was back for a few minutes because of clue which was already there;)
PS2: Now where is that gun? :)

9-18-2012 at 16:23:39

Max, enlighten me please. If the car’s engine is on and the vehicle is in reverse,will the wheels spin backwards?

9-18-2012 at 16:29:43

Shushu; The guy’s quick return to UK ought to be interpreted that the French investigators had finished with him, and also that he was still accessible to them in England. I am sure if he were an Iraqi or Israeli, or Sudanese or Syrian, the French would not have let him leave. Usually, in murder cases, witnesses are told not to leave the country. I mention those four countries only because they come to mind – for no other reason.

I presume that Sylvain Mollier’s house was searched and his computer’s hard disk was removed for studying. The French will also be going through his life. The Mail (London) did have a story that the French now think that he had led a double life. The paper gave no further details.

9-18-2012 at 17:09:18

Max, your comments are interesting.

I agree the wheels were spinning backwards (mud clue). Yes, it’s strange that the front wheels are straight. The way the car is angled to the road makes it look as if it was parked in that position – you wouldn’t expect to see it like that if AH was trying to turn the car.

I have another theory – I have read that the gendarmes found 10 bullet cases under the car when they moved it (25 bullets fired in all). How did these cartridges get under the car? I would suggest the car was originally parked forward of its final position (maybe half a car length or more) . Gunman came out of woods immediately behind car and sprayed bullets at Mollier. AH started engine and tried to reverse into gunman, or, alternatively, he tried to get away but put gear into reverse by mistake (easily done with automatic gearbox in a panic). Gunman then shot car occupants. The 7 yr old may have been hit by stray bullet before being pistol whipped.

What do you think?

I’m still working on assumption that RAF man is not involved, and his worry that car might “lunge forward” was because he failed to appreciate that wheels were spinning backwards.

9-18-2012 at 17:32:36

@Marilyn

Wheels still spinning?
- AH’s foot still on accelerator (although he’s dead)
(cruise control? dont think so)

@Scottie

‘I have read that the gendarmes found 10 bullet cases under the car when they moved it (25 bullets fired in all).’

Very interesting! Do you have a source link?

These are the details, they are very important to reconstruct the killing, and essential to solve the puzzle.

The details are (amongst others)
- Position of the bodies
- Position of the bike
- Position of the cases (indeed Scottie!)
- Why was the 7yr girl outside

And I though of a pretty important ‘detail’ which is not solved (overlooked or ‘cover up’?)

-> The 7 yr girl mentions 1 ‘horrible man’ (the killer)
->-> But WHY doesn’t she mention Mollier????? (or did I miss this??)

– Max

9-18-2012 at 17:53:48

Scottie,

The theorie you describe, I have come up with many posts ago.

The car hit with the back bumper the upgoing earth bank behind it and could’t move more backwarts. Because the car was powerfull and or because Hilli’s foot was still on the gaspedal, the motor did’nt stall.

The tires were already stinking burnt rubber. If the RAF didn’t stop the engine, the car would have eventually taken fire.

9-18-2012 at 18:02:41

Max,

Zainab mentioned only one ‘bad’ man. She must have seen how Mollier got shot, so she did not call him a bad man. And since she was in- and out concience when the RAF guy found her, she must have seen the RAF guy too. She did not see only one guy, she saw only one BAD guy.

9-18-2012 at 18:54:31

Guys – you might find this discussion interesting:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056747846

9-18-2012 at 19:12:19

@Max

See “Guardian” report Sept 7 as follows:

“Maillaud said police had found a further 10 bullet casings following the removal of the Al Hilli family’s BMW estate car from the isolated car park, bringing the total number of casings to 25…..”

I think the 7 year old girl was probably playing near the car when Mollier arrived. She could have been bored just sitting in the car.

I reckon the car had an automatic gearbox. The engine would not stall when the car is stationary, and AH’s foot could have been stuck on accelerator after he was shot (as you suggest).

9-18-2012 at 19:50:43

Scottie,

Thx … I loveeee this new puzzle piece:)

(remember, I don’t go for the 4th party, killer in bushes. I go for mr RAF)

Thoughts on GUN:

GUN is close range
-> 4 dead with only 25 bullets
->-> no sign of escape

Question: How did the killer got so close???

-> Because AH and Mollier ‘knew’ him?

Question: How did 10 casing get UNDER the car?

-> Because the killer was behind the car (& by definition very close)

Take a next look http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/07/article-2199670-14DEA31E000005DC-476_964x834.jpg

The backdoor 5th door is OPEN

Was it already open? Or was it opened by the investigators??
-> from the position of the car ik looks like it couldn’t have been the investigators

->-> Back door was open??
->->-> By the shock of hitting the back wall?
->->->-> Or opened by the killer?

Scenario (to get all things in ‘place’):

mr RAF *AND* Mollier have a ‘meeting’ with AH to get something (device?)

On meeting mr RAF goes to the back of the car to get something out. AH in the car and Mollier waiting in front of the the car. Kid plays outside.

mr RAF get’s what he wants, gets out his gun and THEN START TO KILL ALL, beginning with Mollier.

AH hits the ‘reverse’ to overrun mr RAF (places the car OVER the casings). But mr RAF jumps away and kills AH and the women.

->

This scenario explains, the close range GUN, the position of the 10 casings under the car, the ‘reverse’ the open trunk, the position of Mollier and the position of AH and woman, and the kid.

===

This scenario is completely compatible with what we know, USING only elements we know that were present!

– Max

9-18-2012 at 19:51:55

I think I read somewhere that the bmw had a manual gearbox.

9-18-2012 at 19:54:38

Mick, thanks.Read it all.

9-18-2012 at 19:55:27

Jan, yes I agree with you.Zainab saw Mollier being shot too.

9-18-2012 at 20:00:38

Max, This photo was taken after the bodies had been removed because one can’t see any bodies in the car. We can not therefore take notice of the open doors or the position of the wheels. And note as the bodies were removed only at midnight (remember they found the 4-year-old only at midnight when they were removing the bodies), the photo was taken the day after the shooting.

9-18-2012 at 20:06:05

Scenario ALSO explains why the front wheels are NOT turned:)

10 bullets fired on Mollier with 5 hits means 5 to be found on the other side of the road. Find those 5 and you can calculate where Mollier must have been standing (line) because we know mr RAF ‘moved’ Mollier’s body (on his own account) … must be omcpatible with bloodstains.

9-18-2012 at 20:10:11

Marilyn

You are right. Forget the doors.

But I don’t automatically assume the car has moved or the wheels have been turned. The position of car and wheels is ‘in place’ I think.

Doesn’t change the (possible) scenario

– Max

9-18-2012 at 20:37:48

I re-reading the whole comment section. Lot of overlap. Credits to Oui for the ‘reverse run over killer’ idea;)

A lot of good ideas hanging out there, but I feel the scenario I’ve just painted is the ‘best fitting’ atm.

I always had mr RAF as prime suspect, but had difficulty in ‘placing’ him. The ’10 cases UNDER the car’ in fact made this a lot easier;)

– Max

9-18-2012 at 21:40:31

Motive: money. Location: where a sample material Hafnium or Zirconium alloy or the engineering blue prints of gas centrifuges would be handed over to Saad al-Hilli, an Iraqi by birth with family [and loyalty] ties to the Shia and Iran? Witness for the intelligence community: British cyclist Brett Martin. Assassin: agent from DGSE, MI6 or Mossad who wanted to foil handover plan, tracked cyclist Sylvain Mollier.

Read my full comment @Booman – link to nuclear power house Areva/Cézus and uranium enrichment process, gas centrifuges and Iran.

9-18-2012 at 22:30:00

What if MOLLIER opened fire from behind, but he got accidentally reversed ran over? Oeps. He became immobilized and was now a threat for the operation. So a second guy, maybe RAF, dragged him from under the car and finished him.

Maybe MOLLIER and RAF were a team. They knew each other. Maybe they made an appointment with Hilli. But they were there first and hide in the bushes.

Than MOLLIER suddenly appeared from behind, Hilly surprised and reversed. Mollier shot again, right in the head. Dead Hilly kept reversing with his foot on the gas. Right over Mollier. Panic. RAF shows up, stops the engine from the car and dragged his wounded collegue from under the car. Then killed him with his own gun. And finished all witnesses.

Zainab saw only one bad man. But she is small and could probably not see wat happened on the other side of the car.

9-18-2012 at 22:42:12

Nice one Oui. Also–why Mr. RAF moved dead body of Mollier before switching off the engine. If the guy was already dead you will switch off the engine first–rather then take the risk of being run over by a car for the sake of a deceased person.

9-18-2012 at 23:04:32

Oui,

The positions of car, bodies, casings, only make sense if the killing started from behind the car after which AH (still alive) ‘reversed’ to cover the casings

That is why Mollier got 5 shots (not headshot) because from behind the car to Mollier in front of the car is 5+ meters and headshots are not that easy and not necessary when 5 bodyshots will do the trick.

If you bring in a Assasin:

- He had to be thare already
- Waiting for Mollier to arrive
- At that moment jumping on the scene from behind the car
- Kill Mollier
- AH reverses
- Kills AH

Escapes

- mr RAF ‘finds’ the scene, etc, etc

But in this scenario it is pretty difficult to get the assasin at the spot where he was (behind the car).

Very hard to imagine he would have prior knowledge of the exact spot.
But did he ‘follow’ AH? Witnesses only saw the BMW going up there.
Even when he went up there he had to get unseen behind the AH car

I don’t mind the 4 party, only it is difficult to ‘place’ everybody with the facts as we know them.

It is easy enough to say it was an ambush, but it is quite difficult to explain how that exactly went:)

– Max

If only the girl could give more clues (if they got public that is). E.g. did see saw 1 or 2 bikes and how many men? … 1 ‘bad man’

I have the feeling that

9-18-2012 at 23:18:55

Max.
How about – the car had been pulled in randomly – just pulled in to the left verge of the road or the outer right hand side of the carpark. Mollier arrives. Shooting starts. The car reverses in order to do a 3-point turn to go back the way it came. But SAH is shot, while still in reverse. His foot seizes while still on the accelerator pedal. The empty casings are from where the car finally ended up, because the assassin came out of those bushes. The BMW is a long car. Not easy to manouver. Not easy to turn around. Space is needed.

There is full accounting for any movement due to RAF guy ‘admitting’ to having moved the bodies (by the way – I believe he did not move them for the reasons he stated. I believe he put this forward as a plausible reason for bodies having been moved).

9-19-2012 at 06:02:54

All of what’s below in from that web page – near the bottom. Interesting question about the timing. Apparently the family went up to the carpark an hour before the shootings. Were assassin(s) in hiding, waiting for 1 or 2 bicyclists to arrive for the meeting?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?s=54fc07cf9e090204fdeca4280a942518&t=221659&page=68

Q: I still want to know how they know he was parked there for about an hour and how they know the shots were fired for less than 30 seconds.

A: I think the hour comes from the builders eyewitness account of seeing them pass at the foot of the hill.
30 seconds also comes from ‘sound’ witnesses who were further down the hill, yet the two main witnesses heard nothing – Brent Maverick and Philippe Diderjean.

Comment: One flaw in that. The 7 year old would not be stumbling about for 30 minutes…so either your hypothesis is wrong or RAF man is lying.

9-19-2012 at 07:17:07

@NR

’30 seconds also comes from ‘sound’ witnesses who were further down the hill’

Do you have a source link for this (yep I’m lazy sometimes;)?

9-19-2012 at 07:45:15

French resources are being stretched to find the source of Royal nude photos. i am sure they will get OBE for solving this puzzle. Photographs are so good–it looks like an insider job.

On a serious note RAF guy may have been part of the meeting. He maybe covering himself for DNA evidence & for moving bodies & for helping a 7 yr. old stumbling child.

In such a tranquil environment, you can hear a car approaching. How far away was the RAF guy from the murder scene before bumping into Phillipe D. Has Phillipe given any TV interview ?

9-19-2012 at 08:31:58

@ NR, AD

30 secs is compatible with:

mr RAF is in (killer, my view)
Philippe D is out (real witness)

Philippe D was further away IN a car driving uphill (if I have my facts straight). Now IN a car, with motor enigine sound, prolly windows closed, who knows radio or talk with 2 girls … and further away (on both accounts) it is very possible he would not have heard the shots

mr RAF however, much closer (because on his own account he was at least between the killing spot and Philippe D) and on a bike so IN THE OPEN, prolly no mp3 player or something … IN THE OPEN … he must have heard the shots (if ‘witnesses from much further, reported them … still want a source link)

@ Mick

‘Shooting starts. The car reverses in order to do a 3-point turn to go back the way it came.’

??

If the shooting starts … you are not gonna perform a ‘difficult 3-point turn with a big car on a small road’ when under fire

I’m not saying it isn’t an option … but I find it highly unlikely

I find the ‘OUI’ option much more elegant. Killer is behind the car, AH reverses to try to run him over. Is shot, frontwheels are straight.

@ Mick.

You can move bodies, you can not move bloodstains. Where were the original locations of the bodies (Mollier and girl)?

– Max

9-19-2012 at 08:40:18

1 question to the 7 yr girl could solve the riddle, without asking for id’ing mr RAF or Mollier etc

http://bit.ly/PpHLhR http://bit.ly/S4faN1 http://bit.ly/RrMm73

– Max

9-19-2012 at 10:25:23

I found what I was seeking for. excellent article, thank you

9-19-2012 at 12:36:17

AD,

Philippe D. spoke to newspaper reporters, but I did not see him on any TV news reports. He might though have been, but I missed it.

Have you heard the latest about the topless photos? William is now going to sue Closer for having air-brushed Kate’s bossom to make her breasts smaller. (Now if you believe that you will believe that it was a Martian who shot the Al-Hillis.)

9-19-2012 at 14:58:43

http://www.mayswebdesign.co.uk/portfolio/silver-fern-sussex.html

Link to BMs holiday home, leaving from here he could not have followed SM all the way from Ugine. This makes most of BMs story true, so it follows that the motorbike and green 4×4 need to be found. Also BM can’t be the killer as he would have had to dispose of the gun before he met the hikers. He would have been tested for firearms discharge by the police. If it was him he would have ignored the hikers and continued down the mountain to escape.

9-19-2012 at 15:09:37

Pete,Thanks for this. Interesting to see.

The French cops have said that the green 4×4 was one of the forestry department’s vehicles. That leaves the bike to be found. If you ask me, it will *never* be found.

9-19-2012 at 15:21:16

‘Also BM can’t be the killer as he would have had to dispose of the gun before he met the hikers.’

??

And so he did

Remember he, on his own account(!), has a space of minutes in which he does nothing but ‘hold hands’

I guess he used those minutes wisely and hide the gun and mags very good:)

Even the motorbike + (plus!) the 4×4 car doesn’t add up very wel because there was only 1 killer/gun and even 1 killer can’t drive 2 vehicles at the same time

But it is good for future killers to know. You kill somebody, stay with the corpse and ‘claim’ that you didn’t do it, but found the scene and ‘tried to help’ … and that everybody believes you and NOBODY asks a difficult question and on top of that you are the ‘hero’:)

But that’s me:)

– Max

9-19-2012 at 15:43:12

Max, I now know how to murder successfully. I will stay with the victim and pretend I’ve been trying to help him/her to explain the presence of my DNA.

Sad thing is that the French media has now stopped writing/talking about it.

9-19-2012 at 15:54:54

mr RAF was instantly portrayed as the ‘hero’, no questions asked. I have seen NO newspaper or media to doubt his story. Only guys like me on fora have such doubts.

But let’s be frank. There is no trace of a 4th party, not a single thread, nothing. No footsteps, no car amrks, no nothing.

Yet almost everybody seems to be sure there must have been:) and this ONLY because mr RAF told them.

Just check it with yourself. Why are you looking for 4th party killers? Because mr RAF told you so:)

Any sensible person would go ‘Hey, mr RAF, what were you doing there?’

(Oh, just biking around a bit … yeah sure;)

– Max

9-19-2012 at 16:19:32

Motor bike will turn up one day (ten years time maybe?). Lone nutter in the woods playing with guns is my hunch. Also the white car needs to be found.
Someone waiting to for SM is also possible, but if the BMW was already parked up or turned up they would have waited for another day/opportunity. Mr Hilli would not have taken his family to any kind of meeting that involved danger.

By the way link to the most sensible article on this terrible crime:

http://wrightblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/09/before-hunting-international-assassins-police-in-annecy-should-look-closer-to-home.html

A few other observations:

The Hillis were having a bad time of it; father died, dispute with brother over inheritance, lost contact with brother, mother-in-law came to stay with mentally ill son, mentally ill son then in hospital. So why not take a quick week away in peace and quiet near lake Annecy? Also read they moved campsites due to a dispute over parking. Wouldn’t you? It’s the Hilli family that have ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

9-19-2012 at 16:45:55

Also what’s the follow up on the following story:

http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/09/08/la-conductrice-a-ete-menacee-avec-une-arme

Is this true or just someone after some publicity?

9-19-2012 at 16:50:44

I have been following this tragic story from Canada. This is the best written arcticle, I have read.

9-19-2012 at 17:41:49

Another scenario is that the first police at the scene realised it was a local type gun used and unlikely to be an assasination with such an old gun and an element of cock-up. They stuck to the ‘British crime in France story’ and allowed erroneous facts to become evidence. They then under-reported and successfully airbrushed this crime out.
There are gun nuts out there and I have met a few volatile men happy to threaten with one, in France.

9-19-2012 at 17:59:43

Thank you Pete R. for link to story …

Before hunting international assassins, police in Annecy should look closer to home
Stephen Wright’s blog @ Daily Mail UK

Having just returned from Annecy in South-east France, I am still baffled that French police allowed the media to trample over the murder scene within 48 hours of the shootings.

Senior British detectives tell me that had a similar case happened in the UK, the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place. Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.

But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.

Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

… The publicity-seeking French prosecutor Eric Maillaud says the key to unravelling the truth about the Alps shootings lies in the UK, where Mr Al-Hilli and his family lived in a £1million home in Claygate, Surrey. He says his officers are concentrating on the businessman’s family relationships, business activities and links to Iraq.

My conclusion: The French and British have a fair idea who killed the family and SM. The investigation is a white-wash as the assassination was state sponsored (thus eliminating any jihadist or Iranian link). The magistrates have divulged mostly disinformation. I’m returning to retirement just like Max. Bye.

9-19-2012 at 18:44:47

Oui, the British (police, media, public) also said that the Paris tunnel of Princess Diana’s fatal accident should also not have been opened so quickly.

The last time the British and French police had to work together was for the Princess’ death. Then, as I am sure will happen again now. some questions will never be answered.

Oh by the way, Max comes back every time …

9-19-2012 at 18:45:26

Thank you Anne. Feel free to join this lively debate.

9-19-2012 at 18:46:40

Pete, I would like to know this too. I am sure that the Al-Hilli’s killer won’t be so stupid as to go and threaten a local woman.

9-19-2012 at 18:47:24

Pete, Thanks will have a read.

9-19-2012 at 18:56:27

the more i think i come to the conclusion that AH knew the killer. the killer was so near that his blanks are left by the side of the car on driver side . he must have shot the girl from the same side that’s why she got shot on the shoulder maybe she was moving i hope this is the right link if you see at the end they show the window of side passenger and this is where the girl was found on the ground the killer was standing on the side of the driver therefore AH knew him or her very well http://www.rts.ch/video/info/journal-19h30/4256498-france-tuerie-de-chevaline-deux-jours-apres-le-drame-de-nombreuses-zones-d-ombre-subsistent-sur-les-motivations-du-ou-des-tueurs.html

9-19-2012 at 18:57:24

I have to say, I’m with OUI.

Granted, I have come back several times, but this was always because of clues I derived from information/facts of the first day(s). Like the picture of the car and the 10 cases UNDER the car … so I used these facts to tighten my own scenario.

But apart from those (already present) facts I have no seen/heard one extra bit of useful info.

Only the girl saying it was ’1 killer’

So, when there is no info in 14 days, what is the chance on info the coming days/weeks? And IF there is info … it probably will be ‘colored’ anyway (because who can you trust?:)

There are 3 pieces which could tighten my scenario:

1. Witness of Mollier and mr RAF biking (place, order)
2. Girl remembers how many bikes she has seen
3. The gun (which imo must be somewhere in those woods)

All other info will prolly not be (made) available (which suggest ‘cover up’)

So it will be on ‘hold’ again. (until something usefull turns up)
Enough other puzzles hanging around like this ‘finish the sentence’ thing http://www.hds.harvard.edu/faculty-research/research-projects/the-gospel-of-jesuss-wife

So my thoughts/conclusion so far: mr RAF is the killer, and a ‘cover up’ is firmly in place

– Max

9-19-2012 at 19:29:36

@ Pete R.:

“Le Dauphiné” did not further report on the story cause it’s not connected in any way to the killings, I guess.

“Arme de poing” reads to me as “blunt weapon”, alas not a gun. Car was out of Isère, neither British nor Haute Savoie local.

Just your everyday mad Frech driver sporting his dark-tinted-windshields SUV going crazy about the women driving her Clio too slow along the lake side.

9-19-2012 at 19:53:47

Max, I have no source for the gunshot sound witnesses other than what I saw on the David Ickes page. I recall reading early on that witnesses reported approx. 30 seconds of gunshots, but not where the witnesses were located or if any of them thought to make note of the time. Mr. RAF initially said he did not hear gunfire as he biked up the hill, but explained that was because he was exerting himself heavily.

For another case where police quickly conclude who-dun-it (or don’t want the public to know who-really-dun-it) and abandon evidence at the crime scene, look at the case of the alleged Canadian Psycho in Montreal, Luka Magnotta. As the German police said when they handed him over to Canadians, “We are glad to be rid of him. There is much trouble in this case.”

9-20-2012 at 02:06:18

If The AH’s drove further up the road than thay were supposed to would they be directed back by a forest ranger?
Would the first policemen on the scene recognise the bullet cases as being from a ‘local region’ gun?

9-20-2012 at 02:15:18

Maybe the AH’s drove further up the road and came back, has the forest ranger been questioned.?
Police must have realised early on that it was an old gun not international level stuff.
Why no photographs of Mr Mollier?

9-20-2012 at 06:27:31

Hi JCave; No there are no photographs of Sylvain Mollier. Also not of his wife, his home, his bike, his car, children etc.

9-20-2012 at 07:15:13

Thanks Marilyn–Closer may use the following for mitigation purposes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-william/9548051/Duke-and-Duchess-of-Cambridge-greeted-by-topless-dancers-in-Marau.html

In Solomon Island they are wondering about the blue blood.

French President Hollande in the presence of Cameron promised to find the killers. What is the value of political statements ?
Please tell us the truth.

Longer it goes on–it will smell of a cover up.

9-20-2012 at 07:26:26

Back, but only to tighten my story (because I’m pretty I’m right;)

(I’m going for reports from the first days, cause they era mostly ‘unpoluted’)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html contains the ’30 secs gunfight sound witness’ reference AND a video from which I took 2 screenies

http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy002.jpg
http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy001.jpg

Clearly showing the ‘hard reverse’ skid marks:)

So, now we (at least I) know beyond doubt that AH must have ‘hard reversed’ prolly (as Oui said) to overrun the killer who was behind the BMW (hence the casings UNDER the car)

Fact! No doubt!

Another very good ‘unpoluted’ source is this http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/actu/la-tuerie-de-chevaline-a-l-epreuve-du-chronometre-12-09-2012-2160651.php

^ This has to fit in perfectly (I’m working on that, but most is in place already)

As said, I’m back, but only to tighten the scenario and to provide essential clues. Not to delve into ‘the martians did it’

– Max

9-20-2012 at 07:54:56

Max, you are great! Thank you for the update and details. I will print all out today.

9-20-2012 at 08:01:22

AD, thanks! On the subject of William and Kate, you may find this amusing :

http://www.thespoof.com/news/world/109988/william-to-sue-french-mag-yet-again-kates-boobs-are-much-bigger-he-says

(It’s of course a spoof!!)

As for the value of political statements: politicians tend to make what they think is the right statement at the right moment with total disregard to a follow up.

And yes, indeed, if the shooter were a nutcase (local or otherwise) he would by now have manifested that he is alive. From my true crime writing I know that nutcases get as big a kick out of the deed as they do from bragging about it afterwards.

9-20-2012 at 08:03:43

I wrote the following to an observation AD had made in his latest comment (you can read it a couple of comments down the line). I am repeating what I wrote here :

Yes, indeed, if the shooter were a nutcase (local or otherwise) he would by now have manifested that he was alive. From my true crime writing I know that nutcases get as big a kick out of the deed as they do from bragging about it afterwards.

9-20-2012 at 08:12:38

Re: shushu video link above

I’m not back, just want to point out some errors. The video is interesting, except the approach shows the car parked on the right side of the road. This makes the content and analysis doubtful.

Article in Daily Mail has this image of small road leading towards parking space and shootings. The ravine is on the right and the parking space is on the left. The Guardian had an excellent coverage, it stopped on Sept. 14, the day Zainab al-Hilli said there was one bad man and was transported back to Britain. From the moment the only witness could provide conclusive evidence in her accounts, the media attention stopped.

See two events on the build-up of tension with Iran and its uranium enrichment program: on August 17 sabotage power lines to Fordow centrifuges plant and the massive fleet build-up for exercises in the Persian Gulf. A Mossad assassination linked to Iranian espionage would be covered up. I still believe the Skorpion sub-machine gun, Skorpion pistol and Luger P08 are false leads to cover up the true assassin weapon. Max, a small weapon could easily been throw 60 mtr distance into the ravine somewhere along the moutainous path.

9-20-2012 at 08:32:04

Philippe D.

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/confidences-d-t%C3%A9moin-drame-chevaline-051600197.html
http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Faits-divers/Actualite/Le-scenario-minute-par-minute-de-la-tuerie-de-Chevaline-555890

and more

I wanted his story straight.

He was in his car with 2 women going up the road to the parking (‘Martinet’)

He encountered mr RAF on his bike covered in blood coming down the road

‘ Cet homme, paniqué, était en train de redescendre la route, se souvient Philippe, encore ému. Il m’a expliqué difficilement dans un mauvais français qu’il y avait eu un drame un peu plus haut. Il cherchait à prévenir les secours. Je n’ai pas compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone portable ou s’il ne parvenait pas à capter le réseau à cet endroit. » Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur quelques mètres pour arriver sur le parking, théâtre du quadruple assassinat.’

->

*** Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur >> quelques mètres < So he meet mr RAF only a short distance from the parking??

Now I can put this in the scenario as follows:

mr RAF is busy ‘cleaning up’ etc, when he hears ‘a car coming up the road’ … he jumps on his bike, go down, acts ‘panic’ and meets Philippe D. some meters down the road.

And then the go UP (??) again. Why would mr RAF want to go up there?

Anyway, this explains:
- Why mr RAF didn’t phone (he didn’t want to)
- Why he meet Phiollipe D so close to the parking
- Why Philppe D could phone (because at least he tried:)
- Why mr RAF was ‘in panic’ yet the interview showed him as the calmest man on earth (‘panic’ = not real)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 09:24:57

i did come across this article on the twit of Jean-Marc Ducos journalist for leparisien is interesting i didn’t know that AH didn’t take his caravan and that he had his suitcases in the car i always was wondering why in the photos the back of the car is open . http://patrianostra.forum-actif.eu/t2844-petite-analyse-d-un-sujet-de-fait-divers-actuelalso

9-20-2012 at 09:35:22

Marylin …… did you see this ?: i will copy it here in case that anybody is interested …… http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/les-confidences-d-un-temoin-du-drame-de-chevaline-11-09-2012-2159640.php

9-20-2012 at 09:41:28

A couple of points I’ve picked up through French Blogs, Sylvain Mollier rode this route every week, apparently the same day and time, I wonder if he normally would have continued via the lane that leads back to the main road and in the direction of Ugine.

It appears he was a foundryman, not a nuclear scientist/physicist etc.

And, Brett Martin was a VTT (mountain bike) enthusiast, where as Mollier was a ‘climber’, using the sort of bike not unlike those you see in the Tour de France – lighter bike, slim built experienced cyclist, would be faster than BM on his VTT, who is six years older than the photos of him seen running in the Triathlon and it shows.

I don’t believe Mollier was involved at all, also he was on paternity leave, so not working at the plant.

9-20-2012 at 10:49:15

Belgian XAVIER BALIGANT was killed on 19 july 2011 on a parking completely in the middle of the woods, also with an old Swiss army weapon : a Schmidt Rubin K31 with 7.5 ammunition. He came back from a camping in the Ardèche with his children. He stopped at a parking near Colombey-les-Belles. Autoroute A31. He left the children sleeping in the car. He recieved 4 bullets before the entrance of the toilet. For nothing it seems.

The French mention not a word about a possible link, they say : the problem lays in England. Until next year another random toerist gets shot at a lonesome parking in the middle of the woods. With an old Swiss army gun.

Maybe the killer is a psycho who likes to camp, to hunt and to collect old Swiss army guns?

Al Hilli was a biker, that is probably how he knew the place. Maybe they wanted to do some quiet picknick there but get shot?

It would be VERY interesting to compere the visitors list at both campsides at the times Baligant and Hilli were there. Maybe another person was also at both campsides??

I read somewhere that Hilli moved from camping because he had a quarrel over a parking place or something. Maybe Baligant had also had a problem at the camping?

9-20-2012 at 11:12:07

Jan, I’ve not have a moment to google Xavier Balignant, but will do so asap.

9-20-2012 at 11:15:27

Shushu, Thanks. Will read all today.

9-20-2012 at 11:26:10

I need to know WHERE (location) mr RAF was passed by Mollier

(was it before Chevaline, or between Chevaline and the parking?)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 11:42:32

I have read that the ‘problem’ at the campsite was completely misreported. He paid with a credit card for 2 days on arrival.
Very cramped caravan with a grannie on board. Not strange to have suitcases in car and maybe he had laptop etc in there for security.
Do you think AH knew Mollier or perhaps it was just a meeting to buy a peice of cycling equipment. I just feel the conspiracy stuff doesnt wash.
Purely anecdotally . . I have been threatened by a volatile gun-toting Frenchman on several occassions for truly laughable reasons. For example
‘not buying my shopping in the hamlet’ where I was staying and leaving a campsite booked and paid for in advance at ‘the wrong time of night’.
It is foolish to think it impossible that it was a gun nut.

9-20-2012 at 11:45:47

Do you think this is the picture of Sylvain Mollier because his Family have refused to publish any of his pictures http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/authorities-believe-sylvain-mollier-the-french-cyclist-was-the-target-of-the-alps-shooting-22393/sylvain-mollier/

9-20-2012 at 11:48:26

In the investigation of the Baligant (not Balignant) case they have also been several times in Belgium. La piste Belge. Investigating ex-wife and so, but nothing was wrong with the man and his entourage.

Still he get really executed:

-In France
-As a foreigner
-With an old Swiss army gun (from the same era)
-On a parking in the middle of the woods
-After he came from a camping
-His sleeping kids in the car were saved (Zainab was also saved, but maybe she shouted to loud, so she got beaten unconcious)

Do the French really think his ex wife gonna let follow him all the way to France to kill him? With the children near by? She could have done that in Belgium.

The last thing what the French investigators gonna admit is that there is a serial killer on the loose in who shoots (executes) innocent toerists. Not good for their economie…

9-20-2012 at 12:15:11

Shushu,

That seems to be his foto on his funeral card.

In the article is again mentioned that the French investgate 3 pistes :

-His family feud
-His work in Britain
-His Iraqi origins

It seems not even to cross their mind that it could just as well be a French lunatic!!
Why they don’t mention Baligant?
Is it so common that ‘ordinary’ foreigners get shot in France they even forgot Baligant? Same case, just a year ago…

9-20-2012 at 12:23:39

Shushu, If not, then whose photo is it? Therefore, yes this must be Sylvain Mollier.

9-20-2012 at 12:26:40

Max, between Chevaline and the parking.

What I would like to know is this? Why did ex-RAF Martin not hear the shots. It was quiet (silent) on that road and in the forest, so surely a shot would have been heard far and wide. And there were several shots. Maybe even screams. Surely the 7-year-old would have screamed?

9-20-2012 at 12:59:30

@ Shushu:

Yes, it must be Mollier…and the somehow dark colored SUV is just right behind him:)

9-20-2012 at 13:04:45

@Marilyn

‘Max, between Chevaline and the parking.’

Are you sure? sourcelink?

Because when it was between Chevaline and parkingplace, from that point Millier still had to get to P, get shot, the 4×4 with the killer(s) leave, come back, pass mr RAF further up the road … that hardly fits

I don’t think it is possible

If I do excel
and C – P = 3500 meters (and Mollier overtakes mr Raf in C)
and Mollier goes 25 km/h (pretty fast uphill)
and mr RAF goes 10 km/h (pretty slow)

There is a ‘space’ of less than 12 minutes in which it has to ‘fit’

Worse if I thighten the numbers.

2500m (M passes RAF) with RAF=12 km/h and M=20 km/h only results in 5(!) minutes space … in this case RAF is only 1000 meters from the parking when shooting starts!

You see, why the location of Mollier overtaking mr RAF is so important!!

The give mr RAF enough ‘space to breath’ (and tell his aliby story) he should say that Mollier overtook he well before Chevaline … Now did he say that?

– Max

9-20-2012 at 13:08:54

Max,

for as much as I understand French, “Qubit” might not be your *real* family name?;)

9-20-2012 at 13:24:23

Max, that was what I read or heard somewhere, but can’t say exactly where and when.

9-20-2012 at 13:40:51

@AC, how did you guess? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9nu3xv4B2k

Anyway, in this video it is talked about Mllier overtaking mr RAF and the 4×4 coming down

(I have to guess that both ‘events’ are properly translated from the mr RAF account to this video … so I can do my calculations;)

9-20-2012 at 13:44:28

I guess people don’t hear good these days. RAF heard nothing, must have been less than 2 km away. But in the Baligant case 24 truckdrivers were sleeping near by, no one of them heard anything…?

They searched all 24 truckdrivers for traces of gunpowder on their skin an clothes : nothing. They probably checked mr RAF also for gunpowdertraces. Guess : nothing.

9-20-2012 at 14:01:07

The Raf-Mollier-Killing-4×4 equation is as follows:

X/R = CP/M + Sh + (CP-X)/FF

R = speed of RAF
M = speed of Mollier
Sh = duration of shooting
FF = speed of 4×4 (killers in mr RAF story)
CP = distance chevaline – parkingplace (better, the location where Mollier overtakes mr RAF)

-> In order to calculate X (which should the the location where mr RAF sees the 4×4)

Now, this has to be compatible with mr RAF’s story:)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 14:03:04

Max, too complicated for me.

9-20-2012 at 14:03:55

Jan, I will be updating about Baligant later. I have a theory now …

9-20-2012 at 14:20:33

Marylin,

Easy … the time mr RAF bikes up and sees the 4×4 (with killers) must be the same time of (Mollier biking to the parkingplace + the time of shooting + the time of the 4×4 to get down to mr RAF)

If it doesn’t fit? Well …

but if it FITS??? mr RAF is either innocent OR ‘very good at math’:)

9-20-2012 at 14:32:45

Max, wait till you read what I am going to write about the shooting of Baligant.

9-20-2012 at 14:36:06

Marily,

I’m all ears because my ‘formula’ indicates … (well, I wait for you theory first;)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 14:44:49

This is what BM said in the BBC interview:

“As I approached the scene, the first thing I saw was a bike on its side. I had seen the cyclist ahead of me much earlier so I thought he was just having a rest.

“As I got a little bit closer, a very young child stumbled out onto the road and at first I thought she was actually just playing with her sibling because she sort of looked, from a distance, as if she was falling over, larking about like a child would.

“However, as I approached her it was obvious that she was quite badly injured and there was a lot of blood on her.”

In that interview there was no mention of the 4×4 or motorbike, I believe that it was the police that informed the press that BM saw the motorbike and 4×4. They were sometimes going up and in some reports coming down! There is no mention of being overtaken by SM. How would BM know that the girl had a sibling? Or is it just a figure of speech? Much earlier I’d put at 30 minutes, at the bottom of the hill, 3 km away.

On another point, originally 15 bullet casings found. Later another 10 were found when the BMW was removed, they were probably under the BMW but didn’t have to be. They may have also missed some more, so could be more than 25 bullets fired. Also story changed from many guns, to one gun, to possibly more than one gun. Appears that 14 bullets recovered from dead and injured, why aren’t the police searching for the missing 11 or more bullets?

Seems the police think they know what happened. They have a problem though as there are two witness’s. When they remember what happened and who they tell this to will change everything.

9-20-2012 at 15:15:07

I too have read up on Baligant. Seems your French police are even worse than ours! Can’t be the same weapon, surely not?

Question for Marilyn:

SM was on paternity leave, baby was born in June. Do you really get that amount of paternity leave nowadays in France?

9-20-2012 at 15:24:33

@ Pete.R.

Sure you do. From the third child on (it was *his* third) maximum 3 years (well, for the mother). My [female] manager ist on maternity leave for one and half year now and not planning on coming back too early. So it’s seems quite reasonable even for a father to have such a long paternity leave.

9-20-2012 at 16:26:41

Does anybody think that RAF hit the girl on the head ? because she was walking when he saw her first and maybe by doing this he might have taught that she had it and she is dead …….

9-20-2012 at 16:45:53

@ Pete R

It was not the same weapon. But a (the) same rare Swiss army weapon has been used since Baligant in another ‘incident’. Maybe the killer took after that ‘incident’ another weapon out of his old Swiss army collection?

9-20-2012 at 17:43:01

Pete, I understand that maternity leave is between 10/22 weeks depending on the how maniest child it is. But I am not sure never having been on maternity leave.

I do not know where you are in the world, Pete, but the French police are not the best in the world. The British are good though. Once it was accepted here that the police find a culprit only through denunciation.

9-20-2012 at 17:45:15

Shushu, yes he hit her over her head three times. This comes from the French police.

9-20-2012 at 17:58:44

‘Shushu, yes he hit her over her head three times. This comes from the French police.’

scenario:

After the killing, mr RAF is now out of ammo, sees the girl AND hears the car of Phillippe D. He has to act very quickly, beats the girl for dead, runs to his bike, pedals down in ‘panic’ and catches the car and … we know the rest.

This explain:

-> why the girl was not dead (but left for dead, and not enough time ‘to check dead’)
-> why mr RAF was covered in blood because he had to ‘scene’ very quickly
-> why he acted ‘panic’ because he thought that would be ‘best’ (improvising)

-> This in turn will probably mean that the gun can’t be too far away.

True, this is speculation. But all within the given bounderies of the facts as we know it AND (this is a strong point) with all people we know ‘in place’ (no need for bringing in unseen extraterrestials’)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 18:02:34

I would love to see the real testimonies of Phillipe D and mr RAF. To know EXACTLY what they said about the LOCATIONS of meeting.

- Where was mr RAF overtaken bij Mollier
- Where did Phillippe D meet mr RAF

Both EXACT location will make my scenario stronger OR will take out the sting.

I would be happy to proof mr RAF innocent … but I cant! Really, as it stands now. HE IS THE KILLER:)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 18:06:42

Sorry for triple post, but I realize that IF above happened the GUN must be very very close. Because I remember that it was said that the girl was hit with the weapon (probably)

Now, the GUN was NOT found??

-> Could indicate that the scenario didn’t happen
-> Could be it is still out there
-> Could be the girl was hit with another object

– Max

9-20-2012 at 18:27:09

the Sylvain Mollier photos were taken from this site
http://www.acafc.net/

SM was a member. Picture no longer on there.
Found it on 11 September.

9-20-2012 at 18:33:28

BUT …

… in favor of mr RAF is the calculation I did on the The Raf-Mollier-Killing-4×4 equation:)

IF Mollier drove 2x as fast as mr RAF
IF Mollier overtook mr RAF at the beginning of the climd (3,5 kms)
IF the gunfight was short (max 2 minutes)
IF the 4×4 came down fast

THEN mr RAF would have meet the 4×4 about where he says he did (roughly halfway)

So, with this mr RAF is:
- In the clear
OR
- Is great at math with a very good sense of numbers/figures (not many have that)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 18:37:52

The girl could have been hit by a car, or hit against a car, or any other blunt object. They would need the blunt object or the gun to prove it caused the injury. If BM was involved the gun is still near by, or already found. He would have also failed the firearms discharge test he must of undergone (along with all the victims to eliminate suicide or shoot out etc). If you do a time line of events (taking it the times are correct). AH probably arrived first then SM, the crime happened at 15:15ish and BM was still pedaling up that hill. Even if he did arrive in time he would have to arrive on his bike pistols blazing. I just don’t see this as feasible, on a bike with a semi automatic weapon and needing to reload at least twice.

9-20-2012 at 18:58:02

Pete

‘He would have also failed the firearms discharge test he must of undergone (along with all the victims to eliminate suicide or shoot out etc)’

I’m no expert … what is that test? (can this be done quickly? or does it need days?)

AND

Did mr RAF do this test?

(my latest scenario is that mr RAF went TOGETHER with Mollier .. to deal with the ‘guns blazing on bike’ thing)

9-20-2012 at 19:02:53

It’s a very good theory, Max. But where did he leave the gun?

Maybe he taped it under Philippe D’s car while Philippe and his girlfriends were with great intrest looking at the bodies? While they waited for the cops. It would be the perfect place to hide it!

9-20-2012 at 19:03:04

But remember that every upside has a downside. mr RAF didn’t hear the gunfight, and calculation can place him on 1500+ meters. But he’d have to pedal quite slow 12km/h

-> Downside is that the girl would have walked around for minutes, even up to 7-8(!)

Is that explainable?

– Max

9-20-2012 at 19:12:28

But Philippe D should have hiked and not come by car…

9-20-2012 at 19:16:57

BM would have had to wash his hands of the crime (there is a stream close by) and change his clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunshot_residue

http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/36941/Crime_scene_investigations_Gunshot_residue_analysis_on_a_single_gunpowder_particle.html

Unless of course they let him off.

To my mind that leaves the psycho in the woods or planned ambush by hit squad.

9-20-2012 at 19:55:01

Misfit the picture of SM is still on that site i saw it this morning

9-20-2012 at 20:15:09

Misfit here is link thehttp://www.acafc.net/pages/ACAFC_les_instructeurs_de_la_FFCA-336873.html

9-20-2012 at 20:15:57
9-20-2012 at 20:17:56

Pete.

Good points! I didn’t think of the gunpoweder stuff.

BUT … did the french police do this, in the chaos … it wold be very clumsy if they didn’t but something tells me they simply forget so sure they were that mr RAF was the hero …

Dunno though, they might as well do the same test on Philippe D (who was near enough to be suspect too)

mr RAF could have ‘washed his hands’ in the minutes he had. He could even wash his hands and then recover it with blood!

But the clothes … I don’t think he chenged hat, so gunpowder on the clothes would expose him … if indeed the french TESTED this:)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 20:27:32

What I still think is a weird ‘detail’

-> mr RAF cycles down for help, encounters Phillippe AND THEN THEY GO UP AGAIN!? (and only after that Phillippe phoned)

Why would he (in ‘panic’ and in need for help) go up? For the girl? Could be

To go down for help … ok, but Philippe was not ‘the help’, not until he phoned, and mr RAF couldn’t be sure of that (having phone signal) when they went up

Irritating little detail!

Unless mr RAF was ‘stalling’ (perhaps hoping Philippe D wouldn’t have a signal to ‘stall’ even more)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 20:33:16

But it makes sense if mr RAF only was ‘acting’ that he was getting help (when he heard Philippe’s car coming), when in fact he couldn’t care less.

(you know the Max riddle by now, mr RAF did it until proven innocent)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 20:48:09

Sorry for the spam

They DID phone first and then went up again

http://www.leprogres.fr/france-monde/2012/09/12/philippe-d-on-a-eu-peur-que-le-tueur-soit-toujours-la

So that is clear, but stays another ‘detail’

mr RAF testified he was getting nervous the killer was still around (when he was alone) … yet they did go up (where is the ‘worry’?) … and only later started to ‘worry again’(?) and decided to go down

If you suspect the killer to hang around there … do you GO UP?? (surely mr RAF should have warned about that risk … did he? or did he start the ‘there is a killer, remember’ story himself when they were up thaere for some minutes)

As said .. little ‘detail’

– Max

9-20-2012 at 20:55:07

http://www.over-blog.com/recherche/2/sylvain+mollier+blog:www.acafc.net

Is this the same person. ?

All for now holidaying.

9-20-2012 at 21:01:45

Max, your entire theory falls apart when you consider that Raf man has holiday home in chevaline and has had for quite some time. Surely it’s a massive coincidence that SAH chose to camp near there? Unless raf convinced SAH to camp there?

As someone who supports logic, surely you welcome that it’s innocent until guilty, else you are proving a negative, by which logic god can be proven as true (I assume you are an atheist?)

9-20-2012 at 21:12:06

Is there a French police special phone number –specifically created to seek public help OR any newspaper offering REWARD for information ?

If not, you can make your own conclusions.

If it was state sponsored Mr. RAF could have received help in disposing off the weapon. ( Motor Bike )

When AH was reversing his car–there are shots to the body of the car to immobilize the vehicle. Even if you are shooting from the side–can the bullets go underneath the car ?

With the background of Mr. RAF–you will not meddle with the evidence. You will not touch a CORPSE.

9-20-2012 at 21:35:20

JCave no this is Sylvain Droz-Bartholet ifnu go to the link that i send for Misfit u can see him there

9-20-2012 at 22:00:54

Anon,

My logic says that the RAF guy was there so by definition he had the opportunity.

Imho I think we he says to the police ‘I cant have done it because I have a holiday home’ is not very impressive … I think the police has to ask ‘but what were you doing up there?’

And he replies ‘Oh, just found a couple of dead guys … but hey it wasn’t me’ (while washing the blood from his hands and shirt)

I would make pretty sure that he wasn’t the guy. But no, he was proclaimed ‘hero’ the very first day … Now that I call quick police work;)

– Max

9-20-2012 at 22:04:28

Jan,

I read a little bit on the Xavier Baligant story.

How young he was. And how beatiful his ex-wife is.

Anyway, he was killed at least 431 km from the Martinet lay-by.

In this Nancy area killing there’s no old Swiss army gun connection what so ever (in my opinion) given it is 200 kms or a 2 1/2 drive from Switzerland.

On another account, the Sylvain Mollier from Shushu’s link lived some 300 kms or a four hour drive from Ugine, where Sylvain Mollier, the victim, was said to live.

But they may be the same person.

Sylvain Mollier might have moved south after he split up with his wife.

If he was a hunting instructor like the website claims he might have had some knowledge about old fashioned weapons and even before moving to Ugine he lived only 16 kms from the Swiss border.

9-20-2012 at 22:10:02

Oops, shit…ridiculous detail, somehow weakening my claim:

Whoever Sylvain Mollier from Shushu’s link is/was, he is/was a *bow* hunting instructor!

9-20-2012 at 22:48:56

MAX this link is for you it would be interesting to see if this person can help us to solve some of the mystery of this terrible assassination either she wants to become famous or genuinely she knows something http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shreen-ayob/alps-shootings-lazy-journalism-in-chevaline-case_b_1894806.html

9-20-2012 at 23:00:49

Hi,

the best thanks for many good information and ideas for this case, I could find here!

Up to now I had this big questions openly, too:

1. Where from did the killer know place and time of the meeting ALH and SM? – Even if the theory best up to now is, BM the killer is.

2. If a Secret Service (MOSSAD?) behind the thing stands, why thus a sensational crime? One could have had this also more quietly – in the mountains ?

3. Also two weeks after the massacre the French police up to now has not presented one single inquiry or analysis to result (crime scene drawing, crime action procedure etc.). They do not seem to stand under “inquiry pressure”.

My theory in short version:
- SM wanted to meet ALH to hand over to him secret information from his company Cezus. e.g., on an USB Stick. There should be only one short handing over, no negotiations.
- However, SM has got in the approach for the secret betrayal „cold feet“ and has turned to the French Secret Service. They have insisted on carrying out the handing over, and have provided to him as agent BM.
- However, BM had the order to eliminate at the meeting SM and ALH. The fact that ALH with his family sits in the carriage, was not astonishing for BM (he was probably already informed to begin with), for SM sure.
- Both have gone by the bike to the forest parking place where ALH waited for them.
- This should be eliminated an Iraqi engineer not only, but also with his whole family, seems to me to be an Israeli view. The Israeli Secret Service wanted to carry out the action on French territory itself what cannot be the interest of the French Secret Service, however.
- Therefore, the French Secret Service has carried out the operation with strong message to the Israelis: we prevent our betrayers quite.
- It is able, however, must not be with a particulation of the the British Secret Service.

What do you think about this?

Btw: During the interview BM has said that he has carried cyclist’s gloves!

9-21-2012 at 06:40:27

Throwing in my two bits

The so-called mystery man from the Balkans led to the media speculating the weapon of choice of an East-Euopean terrorsit. That’s how the Skorpion sub-machine gun came into play – Sky News dated Sept 11, 2012 Skorpion Gun Favoured By Terrorists. The Dutch couple however has stated the man in suit was an Italian staying at the camping and left later. No ties to Skorpion terrorist weapon.

French prosecutor has confirmed SAH had a Swiss Bank account, perhaps the reason he liked to spend holidays near Annecy in proximity to Swiss border.

This article reveals SAH’s presence on chat rooms as devout Muslim in a pro-Palestinian stance. A friend of some 20 years, Gary Aked, feared he would come under surveillance of the British intelligence service or the Israeli Mossad. “It’s possible Mossad has taken offence and put a hit out on him”: French shooting dad’s secret Islamic rants could hold key to massacre

This makes my reasoning more likely. SAH and SM were about to meet on an espionage deal. SAH would provide large sum of money and SM would provide Areva/Cézus metallurgy documents of interest to Iran’s development of highly engineered gas centrifuges. [Areva denies unit supplied Iran with enriched uranium]

SM knew the cyclist route through the forest, proposed the meeting place at the car parking. SAH would be waiting (one hour ahead of time is a bit sloppy} for the exchange. SM could continue by bike through the mountainous path or one of several alternate cycle routes. SAH had his car packed with family and luggage to travel to Switserland or Italy to deliver documents to a third party.

As the 10 casings 7.65mmwere found after BMW Estate was removed is conclusive evidence SM was targeted and killed first.

From my diary – Murder of French Nuclear Scientist, A Mossad Hit in France? [Update] (Sept. 6, 2012)

9-21-2012 at 07:56:56

Hakuin;Thanks for your ideas. It is interesting to hear the different opinions. Do come back to read up some more.

9-21-2012 at 07:57:54

AD, no there isn’t such a number.

9-21-2012 at 08:22:15

I’m happy to see Hakuin is on the same side as me … BM as the killer:)

Only Hakuin fills in the grand scheme …
While I do/prefer those little details

:)

It is easy enough to put BM as the killer but you have to explain all details (unless of course BM admits;)

Details are:

- casings under the car
- ‘reverse’ (mud clue, skid marks)
- girl outside
- girl beaten not dead
- 25 casings in total
- gun
- Philippe D
- Mobile
- Timing (AH, shots, Philippe)

So, account for practically every footstep all persons did, how and why. That is my ‘fun’

I have ONE big problem (and a minor one):

- WHERE IS THE GUN???? (it should be somewhere out there, because it very probably had to be dumped before Philippe D enters the scene!!)

- The ‘gun power’ test (Point of Pete R)

– Max

9-21-2012 at 08:39:23

OUI—- i went to your site and read all info that u did put on there you are very professional and you analyse everything specially Iran- nuclear enrichment- the Shah -and the link between the Areva and the IRofIran plus the interest of Israel these are very related to the killing of SM and also AH being Shia pro Iran . when you put all these together then all makes sense for this assassination but why to be done in such a way that bring all of us in this site to talk about it ? what do they want to prove is this a signal to the British and French to say watch out if you back up Iran this is what you get ??

9-21-2012 at 09:31:55

As the French police is not seeking any public support to collect further evidence or to unravel the mystery–it is obvious they know the killer–who probably had licence to KILL.

Marilyn–Many thanks for the link–it was hilarious.

http://www.thespoof.com/news/world/109988/william-to-sue-french-mag-yet-again-kates-boobs-are-much-bigger-he-says
(It’s of course a spoof!!)

Much ado about nothing.

9-21-2012 at 09:34:28

OUI – Your summary makes a lot of sense.

SAH and/or SM could have been under surveillance for some considerable time (SAH possibly followed from England). Where did SAH go on his numerous short trips away from camp site? Did he meet SM? Was he checking out suitable meeting places in the forest?

SAH was at the meeting place an hour before SM arrived – that would give the killer(s) plenty of time to be in position waiting for SM to appear.

9-21-2012 at 09:54:38

Oui,

…So somebody at Cézus found out that SM was ‘copying documents’. SM himself was unaware of that fact. Still he made an appointment with AH on a remote place. It was better not to be seen with each other. And it was on his normal bike route.

But the somebody at Cézus who found out, taped the phone of SM and came to know where and at what time the meeting was going to happen. It was probably not the first time they met there. He sent a hitman. This hitman hid in the woods. While AH was waiting, he was there all the time. The moment SM arrived, the gunman appeared and shot them. Then he took the documents or stick and (maybe) the money, and disappeared again via one of the paths that lead at that place.

It must have been important info lately. Important enough for AH to go to Annecy while the school already begun. Possibly ‘they’ knew this game was going on and ‘they’ made believe SM that he had important information this time. So they made a set up for SM and AH at their own ‘secret’ place.

Leaves the question : why did AH bring his family with him to France? In England they had the problem with the crazy brother in law. Maybe AH didn’t trust it and took them with him? Maybe he didn’t like to do the trip all alone? Again?

9-21-2012 at 10:45:31

Shushu – can you post the url to your site here please. Thanks.

9-21-2012 at 10:46:21

Everyone !!

I intend to add an update to my website posting, but I am rather under work right now. Will get to it some time today though …

9-21-2012 at 10:47:50

In that case the hitman knew for a while that AH was there with his whole family. Bad luck for them. Whatever he was after was more important than their life. The judge gonna like that if they bring him to court. Unfortunately mostly hitman get self hit before they ever make it until there.

Maybe AH teached his daughter what to do with ‘bad’ men and she kicked the hitman at a painfull place? That could explain how she got beated.

9-21-2012 at 13:28:19

@shushu
Message by Mossad to British and French intelligence: “If you guys don’t do your job, we’ll do it for you.”

@Scottie
Thanks!

@Jan
A single adult could not easily hide on a camping, or so he would preferably register at a hotel. A family provides a suitable cover during holiday travel and a stay at the camping site in the region. His lone trips are not for shopping but clearly relates to business deals. As I stated, if it’s an encouter to hand over stolen documents from Areva/Cézus, SAH would continue travel with family to Switzerland or Italy and hand documents to a third party. The chatroom activity could have focused attention from foreign intelligence units on his whereabouts, contacts and travel.

9-21-2012 at 13:57:58

I can’t find a ‘hole’ in the Raf-Mollier-Killing-4×4 equation

From several sources I get the picture that mr RAF (as he said) was overtaken by Mollier on the steep climb (sometimes 10%?) from Chevaline to the parkingplace.

If he was overtaken somewhere in the beginning the rest of the distance is say 3000 meters. A fit ‘climber’ like Mollier could get to 20km/h while the ‘less fit’ and older mr RAF can do 10 km/h

If I throw that in the mix, there is a 10 minute ‘space’ before mr RAF arrives at the scene. 10 minutes is enough for a 2 minute killing AND the 4×4 (killers) coming down to meet mr RAF about ‘halfway’ (and far enough away for mr RAF to not have heard the 30sec shooting)

It just fits!

And therefor the statement of mr RAF seems credible (because to ‘invent’ it you’d easily slip up!)

If there are no more clues, it is difficult to 100% be sure mr RAF is the killer … although it won’t make things easier because then we will have a completely unseen/unheard killer(s) at our hands (and how did they get up there and everything? that is even more difficult than the simple ‘mr RAF did it’)

So, for now, again, on ‘hold’ (because I’m out of clues;)

– Max

9-21-2012 at 15:06:46

To Max, still lurking? I mentioned this fork in the road, possible escape route for assassin in 4×4 car or on a motorbike.

BBC Video: How could a vehicle escape France shooting scene?

9-21-2012 at 15:14:44

Hi,I’ve updated my story above. I’ve added about the similarities to the killing of the Belgian Xavier Baligant in July 2011 and which remains unsolved.

9-21-2012 at 16:04:26

@Oui

I did see that video. Escaping is easy. To get up there unseen, before AH is the ‘difficult’ part (how did they know? And ‘folow’? How did they do that ‘unseen’. And even then, With a car and then ‘only a gun with 2 mags of rounds???

On a bike I can understand the gun+2mags … but in a car I expect more heavy stuff:)

I mean, as I said, if you rule out the ‘easy’ killer (mr RAF) you’ll enter in ‘complex’ stuff because to proof that there was somebody and what/how he did it without any trace or idea (except the 4×4 reference) … well let the ‘imagination’ (which has no limits) flow:)

– Max

9-21-2012 at 17:28:25

At last … recognition by The Jewish Chronicle Online! It took awhile.

Conspiracy theories, Mossad and the tragic Al-Hilli murder

9-21-2012 at 17:36:44

Marilyn,

Thanks for the update. I am pity for that guy. But Baligant came not from a camping nearby. He came from a camping in the Ardèche, were his parents still have a bungalow or so. His daddy is a retired police man.

Me, next year I go to Germany on vacation. Just to be sure. I don’t wanna die on a lay-by.

9-21-2012 at 18:20:54

@ Oui,

In any hotel or camping you ‘have’ to register nowadays. Some of them ask your ID, some not. Hotels are more strict than campings. It depends. You can give a fake ID card. Or you can sleep in your car/SUV.

Maybe AH had a mistress near that lake? And on his 3x daily lone trips he went to ‘see’ her. But soon his dentist Iraqi wife and his Swedish mother in law found it out? Not to mention his crazy brother in law. Soon the big caravan became to small.

Louis de Funès hid in one of his films the body in a statue : they are absolutely not gonna look THERE.

9-21-2012 at 19:10:35

Jan, thanks for the correction about the Ardeche.Will correct it. Yes, I think you are safer in Germany or in Switzerland.

9-21-2012 at 19:11:17

Ha ha Jan.

9-21-2012 at 19:22:51

I don’t think I’ll be holidaying in Annecy anymore:

http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/annecy-crime-stats.html

GENEVA, SWITZERLAND – The weekend search for a missing teenager who drowned in Lake Annecy 2 July turned up a grim toll of four bodies by Monday morning, one of which is the missing 15-year-old, who jumped from a pedalo.

Searchers found three other bodies in various states of decomposition: all had been in the water for more than a year, French media report, which will make identification difficult. One body reportedly had identity papers.

There doesn’t appear to be any link between the bodies that were discovered, in an area of about 800 metres around the Impérial hotel. The search used sonar equipment from Strasbourg.

The first body was found Saturday evening, two others Sunday and the fourth Monday morning.

On the Baligant story I have seen an article stating that another crime had taken place in July 2012 which appeared to be the same weapon.

9-21-2012 at 19:23:18

So, Max you appear to be changing your thinking. There is a photo taken from the car park down towards the approaching uphill road, as WBM was approaching the area, why assume that he kept to the right side of the road, chances are he was on the shortest possible approach, which could mean to the middle or left, this would mean that he certainly saw a bike lying in the road first, then as he approached a child meandering into view, before she collapsed in frontish of the car. The next thing he clocked would have been the French cyclist and then the car and bullet holes. It would appear that the car was not parked in the position it was found but at the end of the area near the signs.

I now read that as you said Sylvain Mollier received 5 bullets including two to the head, these wer probably the last two, Mollier having been gunned down as he arrived on the scene of a shooting and trying to escape pdq. It explains the spent cartridges ‘under’ the removed vehicule as someone tried to stop the car from escaping before finally ensuring the Al-Hillis wre all dead by two bullets to each head.

That is the bit that niggles me and that the initial reports of no bullets in one of the women, the passenger side window to the rear isn’t there, could this mean that the assailant shot the grandmother close range and then shot the mother by putting the gun further inside the car to fire. Although in no photos do we see the drivers side passenger rear window to know what damage was inflicted there.

A UK neighbour has apparently said that the caravan hadn’t been at the property for two weeks, or at least they hadn’t seen it, maybe Al-Hilli had put it for servicing before going on holiday, do we we know when they left the UK ? We do know from way back that they went to Bordeaux, always assuming that it was to go to one of his late fathers properties (?) Now it appears that Al-Hilli had purchased a typical ruin to do up some 20 years ago and was attempting to sell it, that needs signatures or at least a power of attorney to proceed. Maybe this ruin had been his fathers and he’d always had the idea fo doing it up with his fathers permission. Dad died just over a year ago, whether intestate or Sharia will, ordinarily the heritage would be split between the children, he and his brother – Al-Hilli blocked the procedure, a caveat – why?

Then there are reports that a Will and £4 million have been found in a Swiss bank account, who’s will and in who’s name ?

I am convinced that the lowly Sylvain Mollier was no kind of spy or passing info, he truly arrived at the clearing at the wrong time, I hestitae to say it but being married to a

9-21-2012 at 19:34:56

Pete, yes I read about the ‘other crime’ which had been committed with the same weapon,but I could find no information about it. Did you find any? And if so, can you let me know.

I am also wondering what’s going on in the Annecy region – in fact in eastern France as both the Al-Hilli killing and the Baligant killing were in that part of the country. Odd too that the victims had been at a camping site.

You know what I think? I think France is being invaded from outer space … I bet the killer is a little green fellow with a pumpkin for a head, banana leaves for ears, and one huge eye on his stomach. And he’s got duck’s feet.(Must not joke, must we!?)

9-21-2012 at 19:38:19

So, Max you appear to be changing your thinking. There is a photo taken from the car park down towards the approaching uphill road, as WBM was approaching the area, why assume that he kept to the right side of the road, chances are he was on the shortest possible approach, which could mean to the middle or left, this would mean that he certainly saw a bike lying in the road first, then as he approached a child meandering into view, before she collapsed in front of the car, which he couldn’t see. The next thing he clocked would have been the French cyclist and then the car and bullet holes. It would appear that the car was not parked in the position it was found but at the end of the area near the signs.

I now read that as you said Sylvain Mollier received 5 bullets including two to the head, these were probably the last two or three (allowing one to the shoulder of the 7 year old who was bored, needed a pee and was already out of the car, Mollier having been gunned down as he arrived on the scene of a shooting and trying to escape pdq. It explains the spent cartridges ‘under’ the removed vehicule as someone tried to stop the car from escaping before finally ensuring the Al-Hillis were all dead by two bullets to each head.

That is the bit that niggles me and that the initial reports of no bullets in one of the women, the passenger side window to the rear isn’t there, could this mean that the assailant shot the grandmother close range and then shot the mother by putting the gun further inside the car to fire. Although in no photos do we see the drivers side passenger rear window to know what damage was inflicted there.

A UK neighbour has apparently said that the caravan hadn’t been at the property for two weeks, or at least they hadn’t seen it, maybe Al-Hilli had put it for servicing before going on holiday, do we we know when they left the UK ? We do know from way back that they went to Bordeaux, always assuming that it was to go to one of his late fathers properties (?) Now it appears that Al-Hilli had purchased a typical ruin to do up some 20 years ago and was attempting to sell it, that needs signatures or at least a power of attorney to proceed. Maybe this ruin had been his fathers and he’d always had the idea of doing it up with his fathers permission. Dad died just over a year ago, whether intestate or Sharia will, ordinarily the heritage would be split between the children, he and his brother – Al-Hilli blocked the procedure, a caveat – why?

Then there are reports that a Will and £4 million have been found in a Swiss bank account, who’s will and in who’s name ? The father having been resident at a Spanish Nursing/Retirement Home when he died, although he was missing 6 days before he was found.

This isn’t a conspiracy, this is isn’t a spy story or passing information to Iran, Mossad whatever else, this is a family story – Al-Hilli no doubt leaving the campsite to speak to brother, lawyers, whomever without the ears of his wife and more importantly his mother-in-law.

Suggestions are he’d travelled alone before, quelle surprise he was a consultant, a business man – my OH did it all the time, I only joined him when where he was going was of interest to me.

I am convinced that the lowly Sylvain Mollier was no kind of spy or passing info, he truly arrived at the clearing at the wrong time, I hestitate to say it but being married to a frog, was he having an assignation of his own ?

What I find upsetting is that had the Al-Hillis been a ‘normal’ white family, all hell would have broken loose by now, regarding the apparent inaction of the policing here.

9-21-2012 at 19:46:07
9-21-2012 at 19:47:52

Marilyn, could you please delete the first posting of late, I am ina very poor area of reception for internet as well as the much talked about mobile phone signal – interesting reading here, flipped to Craig Murray and David Icke, but not posted too many egos !

9-21-2012 at 20:03:08

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/06/french-alps-shooting-british-family-al-hilli_n_1861097.html

scroll down Ms Davey says that this time they had been away for three weeks – so the kid wasn’t just taken away before school started and the accountant said they had not been to this area before – both caravanners who shared experiences.

9-21-2012 at 20:12:07

….. and he picked up the mother-in-law from Reading !

Marilyn I am beginning to fave a nut job, with a penchant for old Swiss weapons and after much practise on tin cans decides to try the real thing, most serial killers have a respite before another killing – anyone know who and what was the cause of death of the bodies found in Lac d’Annecy, going to do a search now.

9-21-2012 at 20:15:48

Marilyn,

Switzerland? Will Willem Tell?

‘It was on a lay-by on a dead end of a dangerous road that I found him, I could see that he was nearly dead. The only thing I heard was a fast streaming river. For the rest it was superquiet, too quiet in a way so I thought by myself : this is an extraordinary situation.’

‘When I saw the bullet holes, about 5 good minutes after I ran into the situation, I thougt : the killer could be nearby and I have to stop drinking.’

‘When I saw the girl was still alive, I put her in the BMW, I threw her dead daddy out of the car and I drove down the hill in order to save her life.’

The gendarmes did not believe me. I told them : my thing is very clean : call to the cops in my country. But they called my ex-wife and she also said that my case is moreover clean.

So they had nothing to stand on. They hunted me back home but every Halloween it comes back. I mean : the holes.

9-21-2012 at 20:22:04

@ Today’s update:

Marylin,

the closest the German border gets to the al-Hilli killing site is 324 km or a four hour drive. That’s rather not close to the Germany.

9-21-2012 at 21:04:29

quick note I am on dodgy wifi too.
the will was found with property worth 4 million mentioned in it.
not cash in the bank
also he has a swiss bank account
poor UK writing standards

9-21-2012 at 21:15:38

Killer X (instead or mr RAF)

==>

Sudoku. If it is not 5 it must be a 6
Annecy. If it is not BM it must be X

Let’s suppose it was X. The by logic BM is telling the truth. This tightens the story very much

-> The 4×4 was the killer X
-> The main target was Mollier
-> the killing took place in 2-3 minutes

In the 2-3 minutes the following must have happened.

X was waiting for Mollier to arrive
Mollier arrives (he took over BM at Chevaline and has a 10 minute lead)
X comes out behind car AH, kills Mollier
AH tries to run him down (fails)
X kills AH and women, hits girl
(X possibly takes the stuff Mollier carried)
X jumps into 4×4
X escapes and passes BM on the way down
BM is still 6-7 minutes away from the parkingplace

My refinement (personal taste)
- X has his 4×4 also parked at parking (has followed AH or ‘knew’ meetingplace)
- X has AH at gunpoint
- The girl HAS TO pee
- X let her (softie) out
- Mollier is coming
- X hides behind the car
- Mollier arrives at car AH
- X kills Mollier directly from behind BMW
- AH takes his chance and starts/reverses to run over X (but fails)
- X kills AH and women
- X runs out of ammo (or is soft) and does not shoot girl but hits her for dead
- X escapes bla bla bla

Why is it so tight? Because of the report of BM which puts incredible tight time window on the happening (I did Excel:)

The arrival of Mollier is the trigger for the gunfight (follows from BM’s time window) so Mollier must have to be the main target (or carrier of desired info)

– Max

9-21-2012 at 21:20:18

Max,

Your question about how the killer(s) got up there unseen is a good one.
BM says he saw a motor bike and dark coloured 4×4 coming down. When did they go up and did anyone see them?

I would suggest motor bike guy could have followed AH at a discreet distance, saw him parked in layby and hid his bike in the woods (out of sight of AH). Then he got into position, waiting for SM to arrive. At same time he sends text to 4×4 guy advising his location. 4×4 guy comes up forest road shortly thereafter, parks at opposite end of layby from AH (I don’t think he could drive any further). He gets out of vehicle, dressed in walking gear, and goes up the track. AH does not suspect anything. 4×4 guy joins bike guy in woods and waits for SM. 4×4 guy is there as back-up for bike guy if needed. (no chances being taken!).

One point puzzles me. If AH car was parked at the layby for an hour before killings took place, did no other witnesses see AH car or the 4×4 at the layby during that time? We know that SM, BM and Phillipe all came up the road within (approx) a 10 minute time frame. What about the previous hour? Two possibilities occur to me – (1) No witnesses passed the layby while AH was there, or (2) There were witnesses who saw AH car and (possibly) the 4×4, but they have been warned to keep their mouths shut for their own safety!

What do you think?

9-21-2012 at 21:32:57

Just when Max is beginning to trust Mr. RAF’s story, the folks over at David Ickes are doubting him:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=221659&page=68
pages 68 and 69. There’s also a wider aerial pic that shows how small the area of the shooting is. It’s not a carpark, but a turnout.

The HuffingtonPost link mentioned by Lynda, above, also has an aerial pic of the other side of the BMW:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/06/french-alps-shooting-british-family-al-hilli_n_1861097.html

And this might is of interest:
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/french-uk-police-alps-shooting?cat=world&type=article

9-21-2012 at 21:35:16

Marilyn,

I love FAIRY tales. Most touching : The Little Mach Girl. (Das kleine mädchen mit die swefelholzern) (‘The little girl with power’)

9-21-2012 at 21:51:22

Scottie

If we go for X (instead or BM), then it isn’t so important how X got there. The result by deduction is far more important namely:

- Mollier was the prime target (AH was used to get to him)

(that’s why I said it was like a sudoku and BM was the key, because if that is cracke everything becomes ‘easier’ in a way … only I did not crack the BM key yet)

In case of X
-> Mollier is the target

And you can ask, ‘what was he carrying’??

Could be anything really but let’s go for the USB stick with info/pictures

-> Means he had valuable info
->-> Which he probably ‘stole’

Perhaps there are traces in his house?
Or his work?

You see that BM -> leads to -> AH, but X -> leads to -> Mollier

– Max

9-21-2012 at 22:25:46

I am a psychic and psychological profiler. Marylin has invited me to comment on the murders at Annecy.

I normally draw my conclusions after visiting the scene of the crime (or disappearance). I occasionally work remotely, but almost always with information provided by the police – ie, information that is largely factual and reliable.

Trying to solve cases with only “facts” reported in the media is almost impossible, since much of what is reported is untrue, inaccurate, or incomplete. That is certainly true in this case (which I have been following with professional interest) where there has been a combination of sloppy journalism (fact checking seems to have gone out of fashion), incompetent police work, and deliberately vague and ambiguous police statements. (The French police appear to resent media interest in this case.)

Unless you know the basic facts of what happened, it is virtually impossible to draw any logistical or psychological conclusions.

According to some news reports, the gun used in these attacks was a Skorpion, while others have stated categorically that it was a Luger PO8. Some reports claim that Saad al-Hilli worked on Iraq’s nuclear program, while others reject this claim. Some newspapers cite “experts” as saying that the murders were carried out with “military efficiency”, while others describe the killings as amateurish. And so on. Almost every “fact” one reads about this case is contradicted in the next report.
Much of this might, of course, be deliberate misinformation.

Another problem is that several of the key facts can be interpreted in very different ways. For example, the gun used is one used by Mossad etc. However, it is also an antiquated weapon that was standard issued in various armies all over the world, including the Swiss army. There are literally millions of old Lugers lying around in attics etc.

The fact that the 7 year-old, Zainab, was beaten rather than shot has been interpreted by some newspapers to mean that the attacker or attackers balked at killing a child (even though they did not hesitate to shoot two helpless women), and “spared her life”. Others believe that the only reason Zainab was not shot was because the gunman ran out of bullets.

As others have observed, this case has all the elements of a classical whodunnit or spy thriller. In fact it has an embarrassment of intriguing elements. The victims were Iraqi and Iranian. The father was an expert in satellite surveillance and missile guidance systems. He is rumoured to have worked on Iraq’s nuclear weapons programme before moving to the UK, and he was under MI5 surveillance. The French cyclist is an engineer with specialized knowledge of materials used in nuclear reactors. He worked for the subsidiary of a company that was recently accused of providing Iran with components for its nuclear programme. The person who apparently discovered the scene is an RAF pilot (and, of course, the RAF is one of the main recruiting grounds for top level British Intelligence agents). The weapon is a pistol used by special forces agencies like the SAS, Mossad etc. And the killings took place on a remote car park in the French countryside, near the Swiss border.

These unusual factors present us with a virtual cornucopia of exotic possibilities to consider and explore.

You really couldn’t make this up. If you submitted this scenario to a publisher as the opening chapter of a book, they’d probably send t back to you with a refusal slip and a note advising you that it was too far-fetched.

So what do we know for certain about this case? Well, one thing we know is that the police who are investigating it are merely going through the motions. Either they have known from the outset who carried out these killings, or they are incompetent beyond belief. The reopening of the crime scene to the public after only 48 hours was quite extraordinary. It is simply not possible to properly process a crime scene of this kind in 48 hours.

This crime scene has been treated more like the scene of a routine traffic accident than the site of a multiple murder.

When the police anounced that they were scaling down their investigation after just a week (when they ought to have expanded it), and when they said they believed the reason for the killings was in the UK, I took this to mean that they knew the identity of the killer, who was a local man, and had him under surveillance. As the days have passed without any arrests, however, this assumption appears less and less likely to be correct, and that the police really do regard these murders as an inconvenience rather than a case that needs to be solved. Obviously a brutal attack like this is not good for tourism in the region, and the police may have been under pressure to “make it go away”. But I suspect there is more to it than this.

I agree with several of the observations made by other posters. In particular, that contract killers would be in no doubt as to who their targets were. The killer or killers in this case clearly did not know that there was a child in the car. And if they did know, they did not care.

The significance of this has, I think, been missed. It means that the killer or killers could not have been contracted to kill the entire al-Hilli family. Nor can they have been instructed not to harm the children, since one of the children was shot (this by itself could easily have proved fatal) and severely beaten. It was only by chance that she survived.

This tells us, beyond any doubt, that the professional killers were not contracted to murder the al-Hilli family. Why? Because if they had been hired to kill the entire family, they would have made sure to kill the 4 year-old, Zena (and they would certainly have been aware of her existence). And if they had been instructed to murder only the adults, they would not have shot Zainab.

Therefore they cannot have been professional contract killers.

Incidentally, this thing about killers shooting witnesses because they would be able to identify them is largely unfounded, and therefore possibly a “red herring”. When professional killers want to avoid being identified, they wear a simple disguise – a baseball cap and a pair of sunglasses is enough. Or, if they have an escape route, they wear skbalaclavas or ski masks.
Israeli Mossad agents wore elaborate disguises to carry out an “extrajudicial killing” in Dubai because they knew they would be captured on CCTV. But in general professional assassins don’t even bother to disguise themselves because they know that the chances of being identified from a photofit description are remote. And in the case of state sponsored assassins, they know they will be hundreds or thousands of miles away by the time the police start looking for them. Their faces are not going to be found in police mugshot galleries anyway.

The only time killers murder witnesses is when they are already known to those witnesses, or when they live locally and have distinctive physical characteristics that would identify them to the police. A killer with a swastika tattooed on his forehead, for instance, would certainly want to eliminate witnesses. In general, however, professional assassins are not concerned about witnesses.

This case certainly has more of its fair share of unusual features, many of which have been highlighted in the posts above. One of the things that struck me as odd was the fact that no photos appeared in the media of Iqbal al-Hilli, or her mother.

Red top “journalists” are usually very resourceful when it comes to obtaining photos of murder victims. They borrow, steal or buy them from relatives, friends and colleagues of the murdered person, or grab them from socual network profiles, professional directories and so on. But in this case not a single photo of Saad al-Hilli’s wife has been published, as far as I am aware. This is significant to me because when I am working remotely I find it very helpful to have photos of the individuals involved.

I also found it odd that Sylvain Mollier’s wife refused to give the media a photo of her husband. This is her right, of course; but it is still very unusual. Her husband was, after all, being portrayed as an innocent victim who happened to be “in the wrong place at the wrong time”. Presumably his relatives also declined to give the press photos of him.
Most spouses and relatives have no hesitation about giving a photo of the dead person to the media.

The RAF pilot, William Brett Martin, is lying. I don’t know what he’s lying about, but I do know that he’s lying about something. Or perhaps omitting something in his version of events. This doesn’t necessarily mean that he was involved in the murders, of course.

I found the idea of a bomber pilot who was “panic stricken” by the discovery of dead bodies rather ironic and a little hard to believe. Ironic because this was an Iraqi child, and it was the RAF that carpet-bombed densely populated neighbouthoods of Baghdad in the first weeks of the US-UK invasion of that country, killing and maiming thousands of Iraqi childrern. But I guess when you drop bombs on Iraqi children from 10,000 feet you don’t actually see the injuries you cause.

I note that William Brett Martin’s (originally he was Brett Martin: the “William” was added later) company website, http://www.silverfernsussex.co.uk is “down for maintenance”. This is perhaps understandable; but what is slightly more peculiar is that the archived version of his website has also disappeared.
http://archive.org/web/web.php

In early reports he claimed that he had switched off the engine of the car because he was afraid it would roll over Zainab, who was lying in front of it. In his interview for the BBC, however, he states that he moved Zainab clear of the car, in case it rolled over her. Which is it? If he’d switched off the engine, there was no reason to move her. And if he’d moved her, there was no reason to switch off the engine. It may be a minor detail, but somehow something about this just doesn’t ring true to me.

The business about Brett Martin’s cell phone not having a signal appears to have been comfirmed. The hiker, Philippe Didierjean, also couldn’get a signal, we are told. And yet there are videos and photos taken at the scene of the attacks, in which journalists, policemen etc., are talking on their cell phones.
http://cdn2.wn.com/vp/i/48/7662931244845d.jpg

I have my own ideas about these murders, but they are based on intuition moreso than logic (though of course both have to be consistent to be true), so I will spare you my personal theories. In any event you guys seem to have covered all the angles. Some of the comments here are, I think, very astute.

The police have interviewed Zainab. She knows what happened. Presumably she was able to describe the man or men who did the shooting. He beat her up. She would have told the what they were doing at the car park, how long they’d been there, whether her father was meeting someone, whether there had been any kind of argument or confrontation before the shooting started, whether the gunman was on a motorbike or in a car, and the colour of the car – etc.

So why haven’t they issued a wanted description based on her statement? Again, the usual reason for not making a description public is because the police already know the identity of the perpetrator. The only other possible reasons for not issuing a description are ineptitude and bowing to political pressure.

The police will by now have processed most of the forensic evidence. They should know the order in which the victims were shot. Whether the gun was used in any previous crime. Whether the killer was wearing gloves. Crucially, they would have lifted fingerprints, if any, from the 25 bullets and shells found at the scene. If there were no fingerprints on the bullets, this would strongly indicate that the shootings had been carefully planned. Fingerprints on the bullets would suggest that the murders were not planned.

The police already have this information. They also know whether the gunman touched (and left his fingerprints on) the car. Again, avoidiung leaving fingerprints, or wearing gloves, would point to premeditation. If the killings were the outcome of a road rage incident, for example, or they were carried out by a local gun nut who got into an altercation with Saad al-Hilli and “lost it”, he would be unlikely to have had the presence of mind to put on gloves or avoid touching the car. And the bullets – presumably with his fingerprints on them – would probably have already been in the gun. And if they weren’t, would the gunman think to wear gloves before loading?

If he used three magazine clips, as has been reported (three full clips of 8 bullets, and one bullet in the chamber), did he actually have three ready-loaded magazines with him? And if so, did he take the empty clips away with him? Or did he only have one magazine, which he reloaded twice at the scene? This would take time and an exceptionally cool head.

Incidentally – and in conclusion – one of the most amateurish aspects of these murders was the bludgeoning of Zainab. Most trained gunmen also have an at least rudimentary knowledge of other killing techniques. These include using a knife to cut the victim’s throat, breaking the victim’s neck, and strangulation. Bashing someone over the head is not an effective way to kill someone (as this case proves), nor is it a method that any trained, experienced killer would consider using. A properly trained assassin could have killed Zainab al-Hilli in less than two seconds. Attempting to club someome to death strikes me as something that someone might do who was used to killing animals – a farmer, perhaps, or a hunter.

By the way, there is another angle to these murders that everyone seems to have completely overlooked. But I think I should probably leave that for another post….

9-21-2012 at 22:39:34

At times a bring a bit of marihuana with me to France. Just for myself because I like it. For 20 years no problem. So 2 years ago they stopped me at the border. At the time they stopped me I had double feelings. I worked very hard to hide it. It was in my Nesquik. One of the guys had it in his hands.

They kept on asking if I knew somebody in France? I said I come already 20 years in France and that I did not know nobody. With mirrors they were looking under my car. And they were looking at my camera.

And asked where I was going to. I said : to Valdrome. It is a small village, they never heard of it. It was when I took my map of the Drome and pointed at it, that they let me go. To my TOTALLY surprise. It was on a sundaymorning 6am. They did not even ask my papers.

If there was somebody hidden, they would have found it. But I could just as well have hid a gun in my Nesquick.

So I drove on with a big smile.

9-21-2012 at 23:06:04

Scottie,

It’s not fact that AH was parked there an hour, the BMW was seen in Chevaline between 14:30 and 15:00, driving slowly he takes 10 minutes to get to the car park, that is between 14:40 and 15:10. I have the crime taking place between 15:15 & 15:30. BM was cycling up the hill between 1508 (bottom of hill) and 1538 (car park) and didn’t see the BMW. SM was ahead by by 20-30 mins, so AL and SM could both arrive at more or less the same time.

Tyre marks seem to suggest the BMW was originally parked on the right hand side of the car park facing the woods. It reversed at speed into the bank on the left hand side of the car park and got stuck. The mud on the car show the wheels had been spinning fast in reverse. However I believe it was in forward gear with the wheels spinning when BM apparently switched of the engine. As it was stuck in the mud and left in gear the wheels would spin (the burning smell BM mentioned would be the clutch over heating). That is why BM moved SM and the girl from in front of the car. He did not need make up a tale as complex as this if all he needed to do was explain blood on his hands, all he needed to say was he administered first aid (oh and inform them he was a British agent!).

My idea on the actual shooting.

Gunman stood where the BMW ended up, shoots through both lhs windows, does not kill AH (British car, he is on the right), car reverses at speed towards gunman, who moves to the right (i.e BMW can’t possibly hit him). Car is now stuck and gunman shoots the occupants (maybe though lhs rear window). SM arrives, gets off his bike and walks towards BMW and is shot. Zainab runs out of woods and gets shot in the arm, gunman runs out of bullets and hits girl (note 25 bullets to the box). Escapes on motorbike, green 4×4 might just be a forestry vehicle. 10 minutes later BM arrives and we know the rest. Why? Not a clue, but add as much intrigue as you like, but still likely a single psycho (one bad man).

9-21-2012 at 23:15:43
9-22-2012 at 00:28:00

So on top of it they took the BMW all the way 500km to Pussy-Sure-Seine. 40 guys are breaking down now whatever left over from that bordeaux beauty. Accident circomplexe.

What if it was freezing minus 10 or plus 30 and the car in the sun? Then they had to go say to the hungry press : there was yet one more child but she died. We frooze the situatin a bit too much. If it takes 8 hours?

So if they cannot handle it like grown ups? It took them 23 hours to find out that there were also also shots fired INTO the ground under the car.

Awel merci

9-22-2012 at 01:36:16

Max,

It is very unpolied to point at somebody. Anyway. Because of people like you the gulilotine is not greased. People think their own things at times. Your laws are better then those from Sharia-4-Belgium and Hitler at the same time.

This I must make it very clear : go look at video’s from General Amin!

Like his minister from foreign affairs too. He replaced him by a young girl who studied in OXfort.

That guy was SO funny.

9-22-2012 at 06:45:01

Pete, thanks for your time calculation. Was parked there for an hour? That’s interesting. Waiting for someone, or that person already there and they were negotiating? But why the women and the children. I also wonder what was there to see there on that road and why be there for an hour.This case gets more interesting by the day.

9-22-2012 at 06:46:04

Jan, Schengen borders, remember?

9-22-2012 at 07:07:48

Zak,

Thank you for your insight which I find very very interesting. Do let us have the follow-up – I am eagerly awaiting it.

The latest this morning (Saturday 22 September) is that the French and British police (gendarmerie in the case of France) will from now on investigate in tandem. There are apparently already thousands of documents gathered and which would have to be studied. Some of them are satellite pictures of the region. The two groups of investigators will however never ‘go it alone’. In other words when one groups interrogates someone, the other group will be present.

At the end of your wonderful comment you mention that someone who was used to killing animals – a farmer or a hunter – would go for clubbing someone to death, but not a trained assassin. I have a feeling (female intuition perhaps) that we have a nutter here. I keep on thinking of the massacre in Norway and all the shooting in the States. We also had Merah here in the Toulouse region. There was of course a Muslim aspect to both those killings: one was against Islam and the other for.

I agree with you that if a writer sends a synopsis of the Chevaline killing to a publisher, the reply would be a polite rejection letter. By the way, I am sure publishers both in France and in the U.K. have already signed up writers for a book.

Hoping to hear from you again.

9-22-2012 at 07:13:06

Good day to you all:

I highly recommend that you read and study the excellent insight Zak Martin (no relation of Brett from the RAF I can assure you) has given us. I am sure you would all like to comment when you’ve read it. Zak is a renowned psychic and psychological profiler and has worked/ works with the British police.

9-22-2012 at 08:17:53

Read Zak Martins thoughts.
One question I would like to ask him.
Why is he so sure RAFman is lying?
I think he is just being cautious what he says under police instruction . .

9-22-2012 at 08:22:12

I totally go with Pete.R.

Best theory by now.

Local nut case waiting for random victims.

9-22-2012 at 09:37:18

Several thoughts for Zak Martin.
AH has been in Britain 40 years and would not have worked prior to coming there, as he went to school in Pimlico (it has been reported)
RAFman moved the child because of fears she would be crushed
He turned the engine off because it overheating,revving noisily and burning the tyres. A separate issue.
I think police have their own radio frequency. + service providers coverage varies in rural areas anyway.
Do you think it more likely that an outdoorsman who liked a bit of hunting may have clips ready . . just in case he sees a wild boar of antelope.?

Also in reply to a recent comment, RAFman returned with Didierjean because of his concern for the child obviously.

My disquiet about this case has not been allayed in any way but I better try giving it a rest.

9-22-2012 at 09:53:35

I have been reading all comments ….. why a nut-case or farmer ?? how strange that both victims AH and SM have very strategic jobs and how strange that at that time a crazy person or a hunter suddenly appears and has that much ammunition with him then he decides I’m going to get rid of these people first of all one of them is my compatriot and talking to a muslim Iraqi I’m sorry but my intelligence doesn’t let me accept that theory as most of you have come to the conclusion that RAF is some how lying . when the 7year old saw the bad man is when the bad man still had a helmet and later if she see him without helmet she won’t recognise him and by hitting the girls head the killer thinks she should die by now maybe she was screaming or crying load and also the killer a car approaching is too late to shoot somebody might hear the shot even if he has a silencer ……….but no she survived . the best thing that she would be able to say and would make a lot of difference is that why they were there for such a long time and seating in the car ..kids do remember a lot of things even while playing they register things that adults do .she knows a lot and-unfortunately we won’t be able to have access to those knowledge .unless somebody leaks it out ……

9-22-2012 at 10:42:47

Pete,

Thanks for comments.

Guardian (and others) reported “A local builder working at house in Chevaline saw a red British registered BMW pass between 2.30/3pm. The shooting was reported to police just before 4pm”. That suggests AH car could have been waiting at lay-by for at least half an hour before SM arrived.

Your picture of tyre marks at opposite end of lay-by is very interesting. I don’t think they were made by the BMW trying to reverse. There are 2 sets of deep tyre marks in line with each other. This suggests a 4×4 vehicle making a rapid getaway (killer’s car?). BMW is rear wheel drive and would not have made tyre marks like that when reversing. Police will know all about these tyre marks, eg. BMW?, 4×4? how recent? make of tyre, path of vehicle etc etc. But we haven’t been told anything!

Just my thoughts.

9-22-2012 at 14:36:25

Jan, Amin used to talk to crocodiles!!

9-22-2012 at 14:47:17

Hi all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annecy_shootings

I see that wikipedia already has the killings. (url) If one of you should be a wikipedia password, you might like to add us (this site) as we have interesting comments here.

9-22-2012 at 16:06:27

Hi Oui, CIA?

9-22-2012 at 19:19:40

I really appreciate the very basic analysis by Zak Martin.

Mrs Iqbal al-Hilli? She is a dentist. Does anyone know her maiden name? Dubai is historically know for its contra-band and smuggling of goods into Iran.

Ms al-Hilli, 47, was born in Iran but grew up in Sweden. She met her husband in Dubai a decade ago. Her sister Fadwa al-Saffat, a pharmacist who recently finished a PhD at the University of Reading, is believed to be at Zainab’s bedside.

From The Daily Beast: Alps Murder Victims Pasts Probed by Cops

A neighbor and friend in Surrey, Gary Aked, told British investigators that Al-Hilli spent hours online ranting on anti-Semitic chatrooms, according to the Mirror, which interviewed Aked.

9-22-2012 at 21:40:59

Thx at Zak
? at Jan

mr Zak states the obvious ‘Unless you know the basic facts of what happened, it is virtually impossible to draw any logistical or psychological conclusions.’

And Jan I don’t follow you.

I’m certainly NOT pointing to anyone. I’m solving a sudoku with the given ‘facts’. As Zak explains the ‘facts’ here are soso and we and I don’t have the real stuff buried in the files of the investigators

So, that leaves us/me trying to solve a Sudoku with too few numbers given.

From the few facts we got (which I think COULD be true) I deviced 2 possibilities.

Either mr RAF is the killer OR X (we don’t know) is the killer. And from that I conclude that either AH or Mollier was the target.

And I will point out that ‘the nutcase waiting for random people’ IS compatible with X waiting for Mollier. X being the nucase and Mollier the first to arrive

I’m NOT pointing (why should I) That would be as dumb as saying I prefer 5 over 3 … 5 and 3 are numbers, and so are BM, SM and AH … just NUMBERS which have to have their place in a ‘Sudoku’

So Jan, If you can’t deal with my logic, that is your problem, not mine! And I certainly don’t get the Idi Amin reference.

If there is one person here who applied logic over vague assuptions it is me. Because I didn’t assume anything, I only worked with ‘facts’ which I felt were correct. Nothing more.

– Max

9-22-2012 at 21:57:43

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9-23-2012 at 00:03:41

It’s a good thing Sophia even noticed the missing Roof Rack, or Tube or whatever it was. No one else seemed to have noticed that.

Now the question is, was it intact when they left the lake, or already missing? I think that is the point Sophia was trying to make not knowingwhat it was. it’s hard to see until you see a close up of the vehicle.Do they come apart (assemble in parts) or does anyone know if it looks torn off the roof of the vehicle? She had a point when she stated, “Why is the front part still intact as if the rest had been torn off?”

Also. I saw an aerial photo of the circle around the parking area next to the Al hilli vehicle from a different aerial photo as if another vehicle had circled around next to the Al Hilli vehicle or of a motorcycle that spun around in a circle. Can anyone provide a closer photo?(http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?s=5ae0de285847101ee5a1d622620de5b0&t=221659&page=70)

I hope they can get tyre prints from it, but it could have also already been there before the incident took place. Hopefully they can find someone who frequently walks or travels that area and may be familiar with it. It also looks like there was a side road coming down just to the side of the vehicle. you cant really see it, but in one larger area photo you can see the circular pattern next to the Al Hilli vehicle.
Also, if a motorcycle, esp. a scrambler was used, wouldn’t they want to use a BACK ROAD where they KNEW they wouldn’t be seen leaving the only way into that road? Hopefully police/Gendarmerie scanned and searched the other roads leading to this area. Where was the point on the road where these other vehicles were seen?

If anyone want the coordinates of Sylvie Lecoeur’s house, it was easily found from a video that has “disappeared” from the web. Sylvie’s words also seem to have been mistranslated. it sounded as if Sylvie stated en Francais que la voiture passed her at a very high rate of speed, too dangerous for the area/corner not only wore a “black polo type shirt”, butsounded like she also stated that the driver was a “dark man” – traduit de le Francais. Est ce que c’est vrai?

They also need to tape another comp interview w/RAF Martin again…just for CYA and sake.

Suivez les Pistes!!!

9-23-2012 at 00:08:12

CHEVALINE Parlez-nous, SVP!!!!!!

I would LOVE to hear what some locals there are saying about this!!!!!!!!

9-23-2012 at 00:11:16

HEY GOOGLE…
Give us some 5M aerial clarity! The view of this location/road is horrible!!!

9-23-2012 at 00:40:25

Marilyn Z..GREAT blog site!!! Thanks for taking the time to maintain currency of this site…many of us greatly appreciate it!!! :) And thanks for your kind comments…you make a great moderator!

Encore, merci mille fois!

Je fais plus recherche, mais je crois le troisieme points que j’ai fais est le mieux explication…Suivez l’argent!!! C’est la piste du jour!

C’est triste, cette histoire…c’est triste pour tout le monde!

9-23-2012 at 00:46:46

IF this is the work of a “pro,” then some org is in a LOT of trouble!!!!

9-23-2012 at 00:55:30

To dispell the rumours by some of the flatlanders about RAF Martin lying about “not being able to get a signal”…go up to the mountains and try to get a signal, esp. between a mountain “Combe”…bon chance! It’s “line of sight” to the towers that makes all the diff…ask any HAM bone about that!

9-23-2012 at 09:12:12

Sophia, I agree with you.

9-23-2012 at 09:13:17

Sophia, thanks! Once police used to say ‘cherchez la femme’ …

9-23-2012 at 09:40:36

@Sophia

Nobody (at least not me) was saying BM was lying about ‘having no signal’

What I said was that one should check it out, that SM DID get a signal close to the parking and that it was A BIT STRANGE that BM thought of phoning MINUTES after he was running around there (on his own account)

So the valid question remains ‘Why did BM not (try to) phone directly?’

If one is not prepared to ask valid questions? Well, good luck finding the killer:)

– Max

9-23-2012 at 09:41:40

These events have set me off on a great reverie about my time in France and remembering so much about it with great affection.
I wonder does anyone know if Gendarmes in gaiters still ride around on motor-bikes.? We used to see them always in a pair and marvel that they had guns. (Because we are Brits) My first ‘penfriend’ in school Solange was a Savoyard. She lived in windmill and ski-ed to school, which blew my teenage mind. I was a Londoner at the time living like pilchard in a tin. I regret now ((and then) not being able to visit her, especially as the area looks so good to be in.

9-23-2012 at 10:49:06

Mobile phone coverage is not an absolute. The propagation maps only tell part of the story. Radio signals are affected by many things; weather, trees, geography of the land, signal strength etc. When in an area of poor coverage the signal can vary from minute to minute, with the signal coming and going. My house is in a poor coverage are, some days I have a signal and some days I don’t. It also varies from where I am in the house. The signal at the car park was poor, that is a fact. Some phones might have worked others not, it would also depend on which network you tried to use. I don’t think the car park was picked by anyone because it did not have mobile coverage, this is because sometimes it might have. Go back to BM’s interview and he said “What a time for my phone not to work”.

9-23-2012 at 11:01:49

@ j cave:

They still come on bikes and even in doubles.

In contrary, I guess they dropped the gaiters. The guns they kept.

9-23-2012 at 11:47:27

J Cave ; it is a beautiful part of France: I love Annecy.

Gendarmes in their dark uniforms still make a girl’s heart race. And yes they still ride around on motorbikes. So do the police by the way. They (the police) also go around on bicycles which does not paint quite such a dashing picture. In Paris our police even go about on roller skates. Anything to go faster to catch the thief!!

9-23-2012 at 11:48:26

Alexander, Living in Paris I do not often see gendarmes in the flesh,so I’m not aware they are no longer in gaiters.

9-23-2012 at 11:49:41

…the signal at the car park was poor, that is a fact. Some phones might have worked others not, it would also depend on which network you tried to use. I don’t think the car park was picked by anyone because it did not have mobile coverage, this is because sometimes it might have. Go back to BM’s interview and he said “What a time for my phone not to work” …

Thank you for your comment. Interesting.

9-23-2012 at 12:29:27

@ Visitor i did go to the link that Visitor mentioned ( http://www.google.com/search?q=davidicke.&sugexp=chrome,mod=17&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 and there was an argument regarding the rack of the car and also AH at the wheel but from a closer look you can see that the person behind the wheel is one of the French policeman regarding the cap i think might be SM cap .

9-23-2012 at 12:55:59

@shushu — David Icke has been mentioned here before. Worth knowing who he is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

9-23-2012 at 13:26:30

@ Marilyn thank you Marilyn i did visit his site the minute that you put it on i think was yesterday or the day before . i think i have seen him on TV some long time ago yes he is a very interesting person and i saw that he has opened a centre in Spain i was interested to see what was the charges for going to that centre but couldn’t find . now regarding my conclusion to Chevaline is that this murder is related to the centrifuge for enrichment of uranium in Iran and the RAF man was not the killer but he was the Cleaner the job was done with British-Israeli agents and we will never know who was the killer even the French didn’t know about the plot that is why they had to wait for special agents to arrive after 8 hours so from now on i will keep quiet and only monitor what our friends are going to write on this site ….

9-23-2012 at 14:17:22

@Shushu, Yes, I believe we will never be told the truth because governments are involved here. I suppose the killer was faced with a dilemma when he saw the two women and the child. I think he did not see the 4-year-old because she was lying asleep on the floor of the car. He might have thought to himself that he was dealing with an amateur or idiot (Al-Hilli) for having brought the women and child along to such a delicate meeting. Maybe lots of money was going to change hands at the meeting and Al-Hilli was going to drive straight across the border to go deposit it in his bank account.

Reminds me of the saying … the best laid schemes of mice and men …

9-23-2012 at 14:40:41

Very interesting to read people’s theories on this, but I am afraid that we do not really knodw all the relevant information. Families such as the al-Hillis are like icebergs, nine-tenths of their lives are belowd the surface. There are so many reasons for this murder, or it could have been totally random too. I must admit I don’t have a lot of faith in the French police. I was reminded of an unsolved murder in Normandy about twenty years ago. Two teachers, an engaged couple, were found executed in a cornfield. The police managed to lose DNA evidence and eventually closed the case in 2006. Then, there was the case of Caroline Dickenson who was raped and murdered in a youth hostel in Brittany on a school trip. It was only the sheer persistence of her family who kicked up a bit of a political stink, that eventually got the case solved.

I don’t know whether the spooks fromt eh Paris Embassy are particularly relevant. A woman I worked with had a son who was murdered in Thailand by his Thai wife. He had worked as a test pilot for bomber jets so the Secret Service investigated it, to eliminate any spy type motives. It turned out to be an ordinary case of killing him for his money.

I was interested to see you have written a book about Dr Petiot. I read one once years ago. He tricked wealthy Jews into believing that he was operating a railway to safety and told them to bring all their valuables with them when they came to his house. Needless to say, they didn’t get any further. I once asked a Frenchman about him but he’d never heard of him. I think the fascination with murder is an Anglo-Saxon thing!

9-23-2012 at 15:12:26

Hi Sue,

I covered the Caroline Dickenson case. We have quite a few unsolved cases of murdered English folk. We have one right now: a wealthy-ish fifty-ish English woman living alone in a nice house in southern France has not been seen or heard from since July. She was in an affair with her French gardener and blood with her DNA has been found in his car, but although he has been questioned by police he has not been charged with her murder.

Email me your postal address on my site and I will post you a copy of my book about Dr. Petiot. Yes, few have heard of him. This was what publishers in the UK told me when they would not publish the book. Here in France only those who lived through WW2 would know who he was. I’d come across him one day, some 6 years ago, when I was reading a book about the German occupation of France and I was hooked! He was a diabolical character.

9-23-2012 at 15:37:29

I have searched ‘Chevaline’ images : scroll down to find the car being taken away, to me it looks as if the rear passenger tyre is flat (shot out ?).

Scroll further and you will find a mock up from TF1 apparently showing the positions of the bodies in the car.

Whomever did this was already on the inner side of the clearing/car park, I have also found a link to a chronology of events, I’ll post it later.

There is much talk of Sylvain Molliers cap being on the passenger side dash, but I think someone on this blog has given the real name of the chap in the photo, which is Sylvain Droz-Bartholet, although I admit there is no likeness to the latter and the photo.

Brett Martin, William Brett Martin left the RAF in 1989, he then became a pilot for BA, presumably retired off and now a consultant, I wish the media would stop referring to him as an RAF veteran, as if he had been a career armed forces man.

And from another forum, if that is really a man in the drivers seat and not a trick of the light, the day after the shooting aerial photo it is an investigating officer. I still say that the shooting/threatening with a gun was in place when Sylvain arrived at the scene, he was shot at, hit and then finished off with two bullets to the head – which Max now appears to be the case, so Huff Post were reporting correctly.

The accountatnt (fellow caravenner) says he’d never been to the area before, others (French source) say he had and knew it well. Al-Hilli apparently had been trying to get work at CERN, did he go to the area to see how all the family felt about living in the region ? We know he went to Bordeaux regarding the property there, we also know he stopped process of his fathers will before he left UK, he filed his VAT return before leaving the UK, yes he rushed around to get it sorted, ever been in business ? I’ve had many times when at 4am I’m completing a VAT/Tax form on the morning it is due ! Had CERN offered him a position, hence the late travel and not bothered about the kid going back to school, is that why the mother-in-law was with them, added to which the mentally son was already ina UK hospital, maybe it was all about starting a new life, but nowhere near as sinister as the press and others would have you believe ?

9-23-2012 at 15:51:12

Here is the link:

http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml

It is of course in French but easily followed, althoug I am sure you all have your own method of translating.

Interestingly, there was no passport on the younger woman or the children, must assume they had been left in the caravan, all including kids need a passport to cross from UK into France.

9-23-2012 at 16:55:56

To Kill a Family

It was warm and sunny that late summer day in the beginning of September. It was a happy morning on an evil day. But the family on holiday did not know that yet. The girls were playing happily outside the caravan with their grandmother watching. Inside the parents were discussing how they were going to spend the day. They wanted to break the daily routine at the campsite, give the children some variation, to keep them happy. As every parent knows, children need constant change not to be bored and become fidgety and unruly.

Since the weather was so fine, they decided on a short trip with the car in the neighbourhood, do a bit of sightseeing, and why not a little picnic? One of them suggested a trip up to the mountains and the fresh air. They both agreed, and the mother went out to tell the children. After some of the usual fuss and haggling the children said they liked to go. The grandmother just nodded in consent.

Not far from the campsite a man also decided to spend the afternoon in the same mountainous area. He however did not plan to picnic or to play with his children. He planned to go armed and prepared his gun. He knew that that day would turn out evil for somebody. But this the family did not yet know.

However, to decide something and to do something are two very different things in a family with two lively little girls. It therefore took some considerable time before everything was prepared and the family was ready to leave, but about two thirty in the afternoon (14.30) the family finally left the camping site.

The man with the gun did not have the same problem. He could leave at exactly the time he had planned in advance.

The father drove the car first along the lake and then up the hill towards the mountains. Beside him sat the older of the two daughters, in the back the mother and the grandmother with the younger daughter between them. The children were as usual chatting all the time, commenting on what they saw along the road and fighting over sweets. With four females, and only one male, in the car conversation could at times be rather animated.

They left the big road and drove along country roads through a couple of small villages. Finally they reached C. where the mountain track started. On the outskirts of C., just where the country road ended, and before the mountain track started, they passed a couple of local artisans working on a wall by the road side. The father greeted them with a nod. The clock was then about 14.40.

The mountain road runs first through a valley between two big mountains. It’s a narrow, winding road, hardly wide enough for two cars to meet. But it is also a beautiful road, when the weather is fine, like it was that day, and the sunbeams are shining through the leafage, with a small brook criss-crossing along the road.

The family passed the sign beside the track that said hat they should drive carefully since the road was “dangerous” and that it was only allowed to drive a car for 3 kilometers up the track. After about 5 minutes (14.45) they reached the parking space where the road suited for cars ended. If someone wanted to continue from there it had to be on foot or by bike, and depending on which track one chose one had to be prepared for steep climbs. You could also go on if you had a car or a motorcycle suited to drive in terrain, and were prepared to break the rules of the regional national park. Of course with the risk of being seen by one of the people working in the mountains, which could easily happen as soon as you passed the tree-limit.

This was however no problem for the family that day. The father parked the car on the further side of the parking lot, where the signs, that describe the mountain area and the different tracks, are. The family got out of the car, the girls immediately started to play and chase each other around. They took a short walk in the immediate surroundings, looked up the impressing mountain slopes on both sides of the track, and at the information signs beside the parked car.

The women started to prepare the picnic. They ate together by the car, but the two girls were really more interesting in playing and investigating everything they saw and found than eating, like little children often are. The parents and the grandmother sat talking, watching the kids. Everything was very calm and the children happy. Not a person in sight.

However a man were watching them from not far away. He was nervous.

After a little more than half an hour at the spot the parents decided that it was time to go back to the campsite, the clock must have been somewhere between 15.15 and 15.30, and nothing unusual had yet happened. They were just a happy family on a holiday outing.

Everything had been stuffed back in the car. The women get into the backseat together with the little girl. The father sits in the front seat ready to leave. The other front seat , the one facing the parking lot, is still empty. The older daughter is still running around. Maybe she found out that she needed to pee, just when they were going to leave, or there was something else she just had to do before she leaves. Anyhow she runs to the other end of the small parking lot. She steps into the shrubbery beside the parking. Suddenly she sees something a bit ahead, through the bushes. What is it? Curious as ever she take a couple of steps forward to get a better look. Now she sees what it is! But at the same moment she becomes aware of the man who is also hiding there….

The man had been hiding in the woods beside the parking place ever since the car with the family turned up. Their presence hindered him to finish his business and return home. He had now been waiting for over half an hour, afraid all the time that they would catch sight of him or hear him. He couldn’t at any cost be discovered there now. His nerves are strained by the waiting. Now he was certain that the family would at last leave. Then this little girl comes running and sees everything….He looses his temper. He must stop her….

The father is getting annoyed, his fingers are tapping on the drivers wheel. Typical that she would run away just when we were going to leave, he thinks. But on the same time she is his favourite daughter, so he tries to be calm and smiles instead. He has already started the car, and put the gear in position to back the car out from the parking place, ready to leave as soon as his daughter comes back.

Suddenly the family in the car hear the older daughter screaming. They see her running out of the bushes, over the parking place, towards the car. She is obviously totally terrified, maybe there are blood in her face, it is hard to say. After her comes a man. He is red in his face. Maybe has this man already hit girl. He shouts something they can’t hear and is waving with something in his hand.
The father reacts instinctivly, he must save his daughter, who obviously is in utter danger, threatened by this man with what might be a gun in his hand. The father steps on the gas, and turns the steering wheel as much as he can. The car rushes backwards, with screaming wheels and the gravel spurting, in a halfcircle up towards where the man and the girl is. The mother panics too and presses her younger daughter down on the floor of the car. She says something about a bad man, and that the girl must hide and keep quite. Even though the little girl doesn’t understand what is happening, she hears on her mother voice and her sisters screaming that it is serious and that she must obey without asking.

The man aims and start to shoot at the car. If he hits is hard to say, probably he hits one of the windows, but it does not stop the car. The distance is still quite long for his weapon and the car is moving at full speed, plus turning all the time. Suddenly the man realizes that the car is coming straight at him (although still in reverse). He jumps to the side and merely avoids getting hit by the car. Instead the car runs at full speed backwards into the embankment behind the parking place and gets stuck in the mud.

While the father is struggling to get control over the car again and reverse gear, the murderer finds himself, after the narrow escape from being hit by the car, standing almost beside the car, between the car and the bushery. The target has so to say come to him instead of running away. The murderer only has to take a step forward to be standing right beside the window at the drivers seat. His adrenaline and fury is now at its highest level. He immediately fires several shots through the window at very close range. The father receives several bullets and dies. One of the bullets goes through the car and hits the daughter in the shoulder. She is standing on the other side of the car from the murderer. She was separated from the murderer when the car came rushing backwards, since she had ran further into the parking place. She is still frantically trying to get into her seat in the car, to what she hopes is safety. However the pain and schock of being hit by a bullet makes her fall to the ground beside the car.

The murderer however pays no attention to the girl anymore. He hears the women screaming in terror and agony in the back seat of the car. He just turn his body a little and shoots several the shots through the backwindow. They are easy prey, locked inside the car which is still running. The womens screams cease, their bodies slump forward, hiding the younger daughter even more effectively.

The murderer goes around the car and ensures that everybody in the car is dead. He then sees the girl lying on the ground. Maybe he turns he body to see if she really is dead, she is all covered in blood. Maybe he then also kicks her in her head to express his hatred. It was after all she that had destroyed his plan by her snooping around, and that at a moment when the murderer was almost sure that the family were going to leave at last.

It has now not passed much more than a minute since the girl came screaming out of the woods. After all the screaming, shooting and the noice from the car running at full speed, it is now almost quite at the scene of crime. The murderers adrenaline is slowly returning to a more normal level. He feels tired in his whole body by the excitement. He looks around at the massacre he has just created around him and is slowly starting to understand what he has done: “Shit, I totally fucked up, there will be hell!”

Let us also take a step back from the crime scene for a moment and leave the murderer to ponder his deeds. There might be people, who at this point in the story think they are wise, who will critize the father for the outcome of this tragedy. Couldn’t he have escaped with other members of his family if he hadn’t tried to hit the murderer with the car and rescue his daughter, and in that way actually placed the car beside the murderer. Well maybe, but please remember that if he made a mistake he paid a price that is higher than anybody shall ever have a reason to pay. Please remember also, that the only thing that was in his head, was that he wanted to save his daughter and get out of there as soon as possible. Sadly enough he only succeded partly. The mother on her part came to protect the other daughter with her body even after her dead. Both parents tried to protect their children the best they could. So let them rest in peace and let our thoughts be with them.

The story is however not quite finished. The murderer of course understands when his eyes sweeps over the parking place that he can’t stay there another minute. Someone could come up the road any minute and someone nearby could have heard the shooting and wonder what was going on. Someone did actually hear, a boy who was out trying his 125 cc motorcycle up on the mountain slope right opposite to the parking place. He was however preoccupied with his motorcycle and the fact that he was riding his bike where it was not allowed and without the papers for the motorcycle in order. He thinks it is just someone out testing his gun before the hunting season begins. It is not until later when he sees the police that he realizes his mistake.

The murderer finishes his planned business on the scene of the crime as fast as he could. He could however no longer follow his original plan after all this mess at the scene but does as good as he can to at least confuse the police. After a couple of minutes he then hurries away back home. On his way back he suddenly remembers: “Had he not seen and heard two little girls playing earlier when he was hiding in the woods? Where was the other little girl now? Well, it was too late now to go back and look for her, she might be hiding anywhere. Doesn’t he also hear and see someone in the distance already coming up the road? Best to let be.”……..

Epilogue: Almost exactly an hour after the family had reached the parking spot, P. and his two friends drives up the road, they meet a panic-stricken cyclist who tells them, in halting French, about a terrible scene that he has come across further up the road. After having visited the crime scene himself, P. calls the police at 15.48. The rest is wellknown.

What did you say? Haven’t I explained everything? What the girl saw? And why the murderer was so furious by what she had, or might have, seen that he killed several members of the family and almost killed their child, all unknown to him? And what about the cyclist that was also murdered?

Well, that is the beginning (or perhaps the end) of another sinister story. Perhaps it can be told later……..

To S.D. in memoriam

9-23-2012 at 17:38:22

Lynda,Thank you for this. I say bravo to Le Messenger. Its timeline is terrific.

9-23-2012 at 17:40:16

Lars, are you a novelist? If you are not,then you are missing a good career chance. So get writing. Thank you for this. I want to know about the other man …the killer. So, do give us your next episode.

9-23-2012 at 18:13:15

Thank you very much for your kind offer to send me your book, but I do not feel I can reveal my address to anyone. There are too many nutcases out there. I will however, consider ordering it from Amazon. Are you familiar with the case of the German student who tracked down a girl he ‘knew ‘ from an internet war-games site and killed her boyfriend in a jealous rage? Not that I would expect any of your readers to do that, but you never know who’s reading.

By the way, although I am doubtful that the French will wrap this case up, I think they have discounted that it is government sponsored or serious big crime. I don’t think if they thought Brett Martin was in any danger, he would have revealed his identity. I agree he has a slightly stilted way of presenting himself, but New Zealanders that I have met have been like this in manner. They are a more reserved bunch than Australians, to us English, they appear a little old fashioned.

9-23-2012 at 18:51:05

to Lynda:

Rear tire was also a point of interest for me. I could only find a video where car was transported and I could freeze the frame. No flat tire! As Max has stated, tires were dug in with wheels spinning.

9-23-2012 at 19:07:41

Sue, I also won’t put my address here with the comments. What I meant was that you leave me your postal address on ‘contact’ on my website – marilynztomlins.com. I am the only one who has access to emails I receive which hav been sent from ‘contact’ on my website.

9-23-2012 at 19:33:00
9-23-2012 at 19:38:47

The other side …… is there a differnce in the positioning of the tyres in respect of the truck sides ?

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Chevaline-Enquete-sur-un-crime-ultra-violent-426753/

9-23-2012 at 19:41:49

Lynda,

Thx for the 2 bullet headshot thing.

One source: http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2012/09/08/tuerie-haute-savoie-derniers-elements-enquete_n_1866618.html

‘Deux balles dans la tête de chaque victime, selon l’autopsie
Le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Eric Maillaud, a tenu une conférence de presse au parquet d’Annecy à 15 heures samedi 8 septembre. Il a évoqué les résultats de l’autopsie des quatre victimes. “Les quatre personnes sont mortes de plusieurs balles et les quatre ont été victimes de deux tirs de feu en pleine tête”, a déclaré le procureur de la République Eric Maillaud.’

** This poses an inportant question

SM received 2 bullets in the head
-> BM did check SM, felling his pulse etc

->-> Now, why didn’t BM think there was something WEIRD about SM??

I mean, can you ‘overlook’ 2 headshots (as an ex RAf man and a CSI watcher )?

Remember that he had no problem identifying the headshots on the women. How could he have overlooked (by his own account!) the headshots of SM??

I find this weird.

– Max

9-23-2012 at 20:22:56

@ Lynda

No, no difference in the position of the car’s tyres in respect to the towing truck.

Clearly the two photos show two side to the same story: the same BMW station wagon on the same Nissan Atleon recovery truck.

Neither of the four tyres appears to be flat.

9-23-2012 at 21:16:00

Was Sylvain Mollier wearing his helmet, is it possible at close range that the shots were put between the outercovering slots, if you get my drift ? Maybe then it wouldn’t have been so obvious especially as it first he wasn’t looking for a shooting victim ?

9-23-2012 at 21:21:54

I agree with Alexander

When you click on the photo you get an enlarged view. The first is the rear left tire, its partially hidden by an upright edge (text depannage) of approx. 15 cm height. Therefore it’s not a flat tire. The second photo is the view toward the right side of the vehicle. This photo is taken from a higher elevated position. This view also seems to indicate the front tires could be a bit elevated as positioned on a roll bar. Is the vehicle a bit slanted on the carrier, one gets a different optical view.

Furthermore, I understand a professional assassin does not risk firing a small caliber bullet at a tire because of ricochet. The bullets may have had less gunpowder loaded to silence the shots.

9-23-2012 at 21:37:13

Good point … but then again.

9-23-2012 at 21:52:51

There is a problem with the idea that the shooter was a deranged nutter, hidden in the forest, out for a pleasant afternoon of hunting humans . Why would he (or she) wait in hiding when a whole family was available as targets for some considerable time, 15 to 30 minutes or more? Why wait until SM appears? The only explanation for a deranged shooter is if SM and the killer coincidentally happen upon the layby within seconds of each other.

9-23-2012 at 22:24:46

@NR … Exactly! (nutter is out;)

9-24-2012 at 05:44:14

Start looking for the state-sponsored assassin …

I like this comment by Wenlock29 from David Icke’s blog.

“As I said earlier if the press had found out that a British shiite Iraqi was found dead in the same car as a Frenchman who worked at a Nuclear facility in a secluded location then the ramifications would be huge for both governments.

BM’s story is propaganda. To plant the idea in people’s minds that SM & SAH did not know each other & were not meeting at a rendezvous point which would’ve been impossible for the investigators to deny if they’d been found dead in the same car.”

9-24-2012 at 06:36:45

After initially going for the nutter out for a hit on a Sunny afternoon, I am now with the state-sponsored assassin line too. This is as a result of all your fine observations and comments.

9-24-2012 at 07:05:35

I updated my article this morning. I am posting it here too for those of you who come straight to comments.

I wrote:

UPDATE, MONDAY – SEPTEMBER 24

That the French and the British have pooled their investigations is unprecedented. This did not even happen with the 1997 death of Princess Diana and her lover, Dodi Al Fayed. In that case the French allowed the British to view their files, but it were the French only who investigated on French soil.

I can add that it is indeed bizarre that the French should pool with another nation on what is up to the time of me writing this, still a criminal investigation and it is still a French prosecutor who would have to decide in an inquest whether he has sufficient evidence against the accused (if no accuse has been named, then it will be against X) to successfully prosecute.

The case can not be heard in a British Court of Law because the crime was not committed on British soil. The fact that three of the victims were British (the deceased Mr. and Mrs. Al-Hilli and their wounded 7-year-old daughter) would allow the British to hold an inquest in Britain. However, they would have no jurisdiction to prosecute the killer/killers. Even if he/she/they were British, the British would have to hand him/her/them over to the French to stand trial here in France and to be judged here and to serve the pronounced sentence here.

French law is painstakingly slow, so this case won’t be heard in a court for two or three or even four years.

9-24-2012 at 07:08:23

@Oui & Marilyn,

That is all very wel, but now PROOF it:)

And you DO realize that if BM is ‘in’ … he might as wel be the killer. There is no need anymore to bring in X if we already have BM at the scene:)

Because then all this 4×4 stuff, SM ‘overtaking’ BM, no signal stuff, etc is ‘vapour’, you’d have to erase that from your brain (where BM ‘implanted’ it) EVERYTHING BM says you’d have to skip.

You restart the ‘sudoku’ with very few numbers:) You have to ‘explain’ every BM’s movings/doing yet question everything he says …

– Max

9-24-2012 at 07:40:16

There is this link from David Ickes: http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/police-find-pak-link-in-french-alps-murder-case_801380.html
saying investigators are looking at a possible Pakistani connection. That’s one we didn’t think of.

9-24-2012 at 07:50:50

Two new stories in the press today:

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2012/09/23/al-hilli-killers-travelled-from-britain-for-organized-hit-102039-23927944/

http://in.news.yahoo.com/police-pakistan-french-alps-murder-case-101215129.html

If I have the Law of Inheritance of the Qur’an correct then the two surviving daughters inherit 2/3 of the estate and the remainder is divided between the brother and half brother.

Also I read that the final ballistic report will not be available until October.

Until there are more real facts available you can back whichever horse you like. I still go for the simple solution given by our budding novelist.

9-24-2012 at 08:15:05

@Pete, Will the Qur’an’s Law of Inheritance be valid in the U.K.?

9-24-2012 at 08:15:25

@Max, I’m working on it!

9-24-2012 at 08:34:26

The answer appears to be yes and no, it becomes complicated, long winded and messy. There is probably also a will, so this lessens the likelihood of inheritance being the motive.

AH wasn’t talking to his brother, so his brother probably didn’t even know he was on holiday in France. Trailing someone from their home in England and murdering them in Chevaline France seems very far fetched.

9-24-2012 at 08:37:37

Pete R

Thx for the links …

… ‘Detectives probing the quadruple slaying are now convinced Saad, 50, was tailed to Annecy and gunned down in an organised hit, believed to be linked to a bitter family dispute.’

You’d have to work to fit in SM and BM but scenario could be:

AH and killer X finally ‘meet’ over dispute on remote parking
X has a gun (is behind BMW for some reason)
Suddenly SM arrives
X goes ‘nuts’ (‘nut case after all?:)
‘You are looking at me?’ and X kills in rage SM (from behind BMW)
AH ‘reverse’ to run over X (fails)
X now realizes everything went wrong
X kills AH family (in rage) and hits girl (rage)
X escapes in 4×4
BM sees X

Pfff, damn, but I’d say that this is a pretty acceptable ‘solution’ for the ‘sudoku’:)

– Max

9-24-2012 at 10:03:43

look at the last names of 2 occupants of the flat where Zaid lives http://www.192.com/atoz/people/lainton/daniel/

9-24-2012 at 10:07:02

You can be prosecuted in the UK for a murder committed abroad.

More interesting is this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/14/mi6-licence-to-kill-and-torture

Which to me rules about assassination by British intelligence and France, politically it would be a disaster. A cover up would have to be massive and someone would speak.

That leaves me with the psycho killer, SM being the target or assassination by another country.

9-24-2012 at 10:21:21

If the People is right, that the plot originated in the UK, then that blows my theory out of the water. I would like to point out that teh People is a sensationalist paper, what we call ‘a ared top’, but I don’t know if that means that they are inaccurate. My theory was that seeing as Sylvain M was the first victim, shot when he was riding past on his bike which he abandoned in the middle of the road, that he must have been the principal victim. Al Hilli recognising the situation reversed his car, also to allow Zeinabl to get into the front passenger seat. Zeinab had got out of the car to relieve herself in the bushes and was now frantically tugging at the door to get it open. I don’t hink he intended to leave her outside, I think he was dead before he had time to take his foot of the pedel and enable the doors to open. The killer then went round the car shooting the sitting targets. Can you imagine how agonised the mother must have been to see her daughter outside and no way of getting out to protect her? Having used up all his ammo, he then struck Zeinab on the head, like a hunter would do. As a local man, and as a hunter, he then slipped away along the forest tracks he knew so well.

However, with this latest clue, all my ponderings are shot out of the water. If this is an al HIlli affaire, why shoot Sylvain M? And, he was shot first. The other point that was niggling at me was ‘why were they in that obscure turning place anyway?’. No one has mentioned picnic food, and they were smartly dressed. Do you think that they had stopped to pray? They must have been quite an observant family, the picture of the two girls playing shows them in woollen tights and long sleeves, the Grandmother is described as wearing a long black robe (chador). No one has given us any description whatsoever of Mrs Al Hilli. They may have parked up and the prayer takes about five minutes, then just sat there chatting.

The other thought that occurred to me was maybe Mr al Hilli was frightened of his mad brother-in-law. He may have known that he was in England, bent on harming his mother and decided to take an impromptu holiday with the old lady. That may also have been combined with searching for a new home, now that Mrs al Hilli had finished her studies at Kingston Uni, they were free to live where they wanted and presumably, had no particular ties to England.

9-24-2012 at 10:26:15

Yes, I looked up Sean O’Reilly-Hilli, he was living with his mother Geraldine in 2003, she has since died. Sean was interviewed by the Guardian on the doorstep of his terraced house on the 7th September. There is a photo of a handsome young man on images search.

The Guardian also gives an insight into the ‘set-up’ of family home, suggesting that the house in Claygate at one time had up to 8 people living in it, having been the parents home, then the mother died about 10 years ago, the father moved to Spain although he did return for a while and the brother moved out. Since the fathers death, this property must become part of the quoted £4million estate ….. could that mean it would have to be sold to settle the estate between the two brothers and the taxman ?

9-24-2012 at 11:06:50

@Pete You’re wrong there : one can’t be prosecuted in the UK for a murder committed abroad, just as a Swedish national,for example,can’t be prosecuted for a murder committed in shall we say Japan or Greece.

You have a case right now in the UK, that of Shrien Dewani wanted in South Africa for the alleged murder of his wife Annie. He can not even be investigated in the UK. He is therefore still in a secure mental institution until such time that his psychiatrists find him sufficiently mentally fit to stand trial in South Africa.

There is also the case of Princess Diana. Despite that she was a Brit and her lover Dodi Al Fayed although not British but resident in the UK, the paparazzi could not be charged and prosecuted in the UK because their misdemeanor was committed on French soil.

These days we have the European Court in the Hague, but those are for Crimes Against Humanity cases.

Can you imagine where the world would be if there were no judicial frontiers?

9-24-2012 at 11:21:54

I have read all the various theories and possible scenarios here with much interest.
My take is such. Firstly there are too many contradictions, red herrings and misinformation given out by the authorities and laziness on the part of news gatherers not putting together a crime scene map with timeline. Particularly the escape route options.
However by profiling the killer it is most probable that he has killed before judging but the compulsion to quickly kill unrelated onlookers.
Therefore for a killer be he a professoional or not the remote location would be ideal burial location for disposing of a body. If cyclist or AH family arrived at a most inopportune time that could explain the killing of both. The key reason may not be identification but prevention of use of mobile phone as the location can be a trap.
It is most important that every inch of the area is scoured for any previous burials.

However by reading the sign at the begining of the forest road which clearly says “dangerous road” one has to wonder why AH made the trip in the first place with his family.

9-24-2012 at 11:36:31

I do believe I am correct:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/jurisdiction/#b02

Not often in a murder case, but common in some sexual cases where the offense is not a crime in the country it was committed. It’s the same in France too.

9-24-2012 at 11:53:57

Marilyn,

No need to put this in the blog; just info for you that we can and do prosecute in the UK for murders committed abroad:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Punjab/PunjabAbroadBritain/UK-court-to-start-Colette-Davies-murder-trial/Article1-901575.aspx

9-24-2012 at 12:08:28

@Keltrava

Good point (made me think)

‘However by reading the sign at the begining of the forest road which clearly says “dangerous road” one has to wonder why AH made the trip in the first place with his family’

The most logical explanation for this is imho:

AH wanted to ‘meet’ somebody and that somebody suggested this place

Question is, ‘meeting with who?’ Killer X or SM

This is tricky because if we turn this around and ask ‘who knew this place and could have suggested this place for a ‘meeting’?’

Then the answer includes SM … and BM:) (with SM being my fav)

I think we need one extra clue (fact) to get this thing rolling. Either the girl remembers more and is allowed to talk, or some witness or link pops up for fact (or the investigators ‘leak’ some facts)

9-24-2012 at 13:41:30

@Pete, thanks I read all of it.

As I can make out it is different when one of Britain’s former colonies are involved like with the Pakistani case.

As for Britain and another country, even an E.U. one, the way I see it, if Britain wants to prosecute it would have to go to some international court (maybe the one in The Hague or Strasbourg) for its case to be heard. I hope you are not a lawyer because I am now going to say that lawyers are awfully cunning and keep such cases out of the courts for years.

The French get uptight at any suggestion that they are not competent to investigate and judge a case. For this reason I can’t see that they would allow the Chevaline case to be heard and judged in a British court. I further think that the Brits may prefer that the French deal with it: let the stink of secret service assassination, money laundering, contract killings for criminal reasons etc be in France rather than in the UK.

You know I have no knowledge of the French allowing a murder which had been carried out on French soil to be judged in another country. I know that France has on several occasions asked for one of her convicted nationals to serve a prison sentence in France and not where the crime was committed, but never has the other country agreed to this. (We have a case like that now that involves life incarceration in Mexico.) France does though expel foreign nationals (especially those from the Maghreb) who have committed crimes here in order to be rid of them.

9-24-2012 at 14:09:48

@Marilyn @Pete

In English law, where murder and manslaughter are concerned, the English court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad, if it was committed by a British citizen (see section 9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1948). In R v Cheong (2006) AER (D) 385 the appellant was living in Guyana in 1983. He shot and killed a man who had just robbed his wife and sister-in-law. Under local law he was charged only with the unlicensed possession of a firearm; but as a British citizen, section 9 of the 1861 Act applied when he returned to England and he was charged with murder. On appeal, a conviction for manslaughter was upheld. At a level of conventional policy, there are two main theories to justify the exercise of jurisdiction:

9-24-2012 at 14:25:06

@Marilyn @Pete

FYI

In English law, where murder and manslaughter are concerned, the English court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad, if it was committed by a British citizen (see section 9 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 and section 3 of the British Nationality Act 1948). In R v Cheong (2006) AER (D) 385 the appellant was living in Guyana in 1983. He shot and killed a man who had just robbed his wife and sister-in-law. Under local law he was charged only with the unlicensed possession of a firearm; but as a British citizen, section 9 of the 1861 Act applied when he returned to England and he was charged with murder. On appeal, a conviction for manslaughter was upheld. At a level of conventional policy, there are two main theories to justify the exercise of jurisdiction:

9-24-2012 at 14:32:05

@AD : Oh gosh, then I must rather not kill anymore people because where the French maybe won’t suspect me, if the British do, I could be arrested the next time I get off the Eurostar at St Pancras.

Seriously, this is what I want to ask you now. So why do the British not charge Shrien Dewani? They do not seem *that* eager to allow him to stand trial in South Africa, fearing that he would be killed by the other inmates in a South African jail,so they can prevent that with a British trial.

As for the Chevaline case, if a British court has jurisdiction over offences committed abroad by a British citizen, the killer in this case must be a Brit for a British trial. Not so?

I can’t however see the French *ever* allowing a British court to put on trial someone,British or non-British, who has committed an offence (theft, murder, kidnapping etc) on French soil. The French will tell the British ‘we are perfectly capable of keeping law and order in our country, thank you very much!’

9-24-2012 at 14:35:01

Look at post #1364 and #1372 of blog David Icke.

The People’s article doesn’t make sense at all. The evidence could have been found in the home of SAH after the massacre in France. In my view, the home in Claygate would have been set ablaze within an hour of the successful murders in Chevaline. The real killer(s) did not fear his identity would be uncovered. Therefore, more indication for a state-sponsored act and clean escape.

9-24-2012 at 15:40:10

I have been thinking about how I/my life events . . might be portrayed by the press if I were to die in similar circumstances.
I think the victims/witnesses have all had rather random aspects of their lives highlighted, reported, reiterated and re-internetted in a way that is quite bizarre. My life could be worked up into quite an interesting story of global contradictions, and I am thinking perhaps any set of people could have the same happen to them.
My guts are telling me these are just ordinary folk not part of any international conspiracy. Family dynamics are complex, people fret about financial difficulties and everyone thinks a holiday is a way to getaway from these burdens. Ordinary stuff
What is not ordinary is the way the two Police forces are working together in a rare moment of accord to obsfuscate and cover up this dreadful happening. The real question is Why do Policemen want to downplay it? Maybe not so much to keep secret from the public but to protect something or someone.

9-24-2012 at 19:31:35

@jcave: I have been wondering this too. What would my neighbours tell the media about me. “Oh, she was always so friendly so I would never have imagined that she hasn’t spoken to her Aunt Mavis for twenty years all because of a silly thing like a coffee table her aunt wouldn’t let her have.” My collection of paper-wrapped sugar lumps would probably be interpreted by The People that I was a kleptomaniac – stealing sugar in tearooms. And I wonder what they would make of my collection of true crime books? That I was obviously a born killer.

9-24-2012 at 19:32:20

@Oui : What did you expect? It’s The People.

9-24-2012 at 20:12:37

@ j cave & Marilyn:

Same goes for me. After hearing about Chevaline and coming to the (very personal opinion) that SSTL is not a defense contractor and that al-Hilli simply was into satellite mapping and Airbus kitchen designing and that Sylvain Mollier was just a local bloke who worked for Cezus Areva, I told my wife:

Whenever I get killed by some random mad man on the street please tell press that it does not have anything to do with some leftover agents from East German state security still operating on their own.

The fact that I grew up in East Germany does not necessarily mean there would always be a great conspiracy behind my death!

It would just be bad luck, simple as that.

Same is true, in my opinion, for the circumstances of al-Hilli’s and Mollier’s deaths.

9-24-2012 at 20:29:18

@Marilyn
Shrien Dewani—Matter is sub-judice in SA.

If a person has been convicted or acquitted of a crime in another country, they cannot be prosecuted for the same crime in the UK.

UK courts are currently involved only with extradition application/request of SA–which is being postponed until the accused is medically fit to stand trial.

As long as the accused has the support of the medical establishment and off course good lawyers–he will remain in UK –under medical supervision.

In sex offences against children non-British citizen can also be prosecuted.

Schedule II of the Sex Offenders Act 1997 gives courts in the United Kingdom jurisdiction to prosecute UK citizens and residents who commit sex offences against children abroad. This law applies to British citizens and residents, and is applicable even where the person in question was not a British citizen or UK resident at the time of the offence but has subsequently become one

9-24-2012 at 20:36:14

Sometimes simple people are used as pawns in a complex structure. Easy to sacrifice.

9-24-2012 at 20:54:41

AC

So … AH and familiy ‘just went for a walk’? … upthere? What is there to ‘see’?? (Woods, ‘all wooded’ as Brett Martin would say)

I take my kids to the zoo, or we’d see a town, castle or do some fun shopping, or even visit a giant Carrefour … but no AH is smart on his holiday … he goes out remote, yeah fun for the kids NOT:)

So, AH went up there … but to do what exactly?

9-24-2012 at 21:04:19

The press would make mincemeat of me ! I always wanted to be involved in politics, I know I was good at it then life took over, I admit not always someone elses fault, mostly circumstances – nevertheless I can imagine the red tops headlines!

This is where, for all the accusations and inference flying about on the web – Sylvain Mollier, a Dad to the latest addition to the human race, by way of his junior partner pharmacist Claire Schultz who is only 29, with a new born of about three months, this child will never know its father. The Al-Hilli girls suffering such a trauma may never truly recover from the horror they have experienced and William Brett Martin, who at this point is an honest man caught up in a drama that could ruin his marriage, business and cause great upset to his own children.

A little knowledge is dangerous, n’est ce pas ?

9-24-2012 at 21:30:12

C’mon, I don’t even know my neighbours very well … and now everyone pretends he/she ‘knows’ SM, AH and BM?

Well, perhaps you do … I don’t. For me AH, SM and BM are ‘numbers’ in a Sudoku, and that’s all I know:)

9-24-2012 at 21:39:43

Yes, Max – so we are guilty until proven innocent ? As for the comment about why take kids to a forest for a walk – don’t judge us all by your standards !

9-24-2012 at 22:02:14

No Lynda, they are not ‘guilty’ they are DEAD, and I would like to find out what happened. Bringing in nutters who kill innocent people isn’t going to help … although I admit that it is a possibility .. ONE possibility out of MANY

I had a neighbour. One day we talked about ‘parking our cars’, the next day the guy jumps of a building … ‘really knowing’ somebody is an idea I left behind a long time ago. I trust ppl, yes because trust is a mutual thing, but ‘knowing them’ … gosh I don’t even know myself sometimes (when I have a bad temper, I think now were the hell does that come from:)

– Max

9-24-2012 at 22:13:26

But maybe you guys and girls are right. Maybe it is once again time to ‘shelve’ this thing, until something fresh pops up … there are too few facts and there is little covergence in our ideas about this case. It only leads to frustration/irritation (I know myself:)

Bye bye for now,
Max

9-24-2012 at 22:17:54

Max, as far as we know Martin is not dead, I don’t imply I know anyone, what I and you don’t know is that the people who are dead brought it upon themselves – that is my point.

9-25-2012 at 06:11:01

@Ad – thanks for this. You know your stuff as we say.

9-25-2012 at 06:55:29

@Max—-

“Sometimes simple people are used as pawns in a complex structure. Easy to sacrifice.”

What I mean—You do not have to be a nuclear scientist or in a position of authority to steal confidential information or become a courier for more powerful and cunning superiors.
AH could easily be a mole for an organisation or Govt. or just a family man used for his beliefs.

Even some of the secret service operatives have criticized their own organisation after retirement as they keep working as pawns while they are part of the bigger entity.

We can only speculate & raise queries in an objective manner. It may help the investigation–if they need one. Whatever happens–this investigation will be under microscope for some time to come.

9-25-2012 at 08:53:52

@ Max:

Believing al-Hilli was not there in a secret mission does not mean I know why he went there.

And I honestly don’t.

My speculation is right now (and that has even changed over the course of time since Chevaline happened) they were there for a walk.

The spot is popular among bikers and hikers (proven by Philippe Didierjean) so why not?

They where not properly dressed for a hike in the mountains, bot c’mon, it was probably their first time up there and they’re British.

You might not have your Decathlon Superstore just around the corner there like we do in France to gear up yourself.

And the weather was sub-standard that Wednesday, so if you don’t go swimming you might be in for a walk in the woods?

By the way I’m sure you’ll come back – feel free! Sudoku’s not over yet:)

9-25-2012 at 09:44:20

@Lynda

Interesting. Do you have a link for SM partner’s name/background Claire Schultz the junior pharmacist of 29? SM is a fervent cyclist and participated in organized cycling races. It’s not strange for him to be at the location. That cannot be said of the al-Hilli family.

William Brett Martin I understood from above comments was less successful in his business endeavors and had financial problems. BM lived nearby.

SAH and his family were well known in France as they had enjoyed holidays before in the region. There are many lovely places to go for a walk in the woods or a picnic in the Annecy Lake environs. The location of the shooting is not one of them, look at the mountainous ridge and steep ravines along the small road. Not quite the place for a 4 year-old and elder grandmother. It was where civilzation ended and rough mountain cycling started. It was very isolated as we heard from witness accounts, each car passing by is observed. It took 1.5 hours before another car with hikers came all the way up the small road to the parking.

Circumstances unknown forced a decision for a late holiday to this France region. Unusual, as the eldest daughter should have started school in that week. This is unlawful in my country and needs some explanation.

There is a storyline behind these killings we don’t know the particulars and most likely will never be uncovered. I consider the murders targeted killings, assassinations.

9-25-2012 at 10:19:12

A map with hike and bike tracks in Chevaline region. The track on the mountain ridge is dead-ended.

9-25-2012 at 11:15:54

Thanks Oui for your various comments.

For me key piece of evidence is injuries to 7 yr. old and her evidence.

How long after suffering broken skull & a bullet injury a child of tender age is able to remain conscious and is able to stumble around ?

She recalls ” One bad man ” but not ” One good man “.

If she was unconscious –she will not be stumbling around.
If she was conscious, she will recall “One Good Man”.

9-25-2012 at 12:06:04

For Claire Schutz name is all over the internet being the junior pharmacist in a nearby town/village.

As for the Al-Hillis ‘late’ vacation, a neighbour said that the caravan had not been at the house for about 3 weeks….. so not late really but extended ? Maybe Saad had called the school to say she wouldn’t be there for the first week, they were due to leave the campsite at the end of the week. His accountant said that the Al-Hillis had never been to the region before (?).

This is the bit where I have a problem with being followed, from the UK over a period of some three weeks.

Why make so much about the road and it is a road up to a clearing for parking, maybe it was just somewhere different to have a drive around, done this many times in different countries myself, found some incredible views and an old farmhouse with an elderly lady sat outside dressed in black, in an area apparently without electricity, running water etc. We were shooed off and did pdq ! This was Crete by the way.

Finally for now, whilst the Al-Hilli car was spotted doesn’t mean that nothing else went past the guy who was painting a wall, he could have gone inside for a drink, taken a phone call, gone for a pee – the LeMessager report says that the nearest homes are 4,000metres from the clearing, but there must have been people up there or on the mountain, possibly arriving from another of the many small roads that go nowhere for shots to have been heard.

9-25-2012 at 12:42:31

It was sudden and a short planned vacation. The family has traveled to France and this region before.

Jack Saltman, another neighbour, said Mr Al-Hilli had told how he was grappling with a ‘personal problem’ on August 29, the day the family left for France.

“He came around to see me the night before he went and asked me to keep an eye on the house. He wasn’t particularly stressed. He was looking forward to taking the kids to France again.”

[Link to Claire Schutz] Blogger followed links from my diary @Booman to Marylyn’s blog and did some research … interesting.

9-25-2012 at 13:17:41

You can follow a car without being seen.

GPS Tracking Darts: A new device allows police to shoot a small sticky dart containing a micro GPS tracker from the grill of their patrol car (Batman style) onto a suspect’s vehicle. This allows both the patrol officer and the precinct to monitor the vehicle’s location from a distance, undetected. Police report that it has been hugely successful in apprehending fleeing suspects and smugglers.

The police should have at least some level of reasonable suspicion before using the dart tracking system, which is called the “StarChase Pursuit Management System”. The Supreme Court is set to issue a ruling sometime next year regarding the use of GPS tracking without a warrant.

9-25-2012 at 14:07:12

@ Oui & Lynda:

Oui’s commentary lets me add something which I have thought over now for a while.

Living in France with two children in school lets me pretty much understand Oui’s comment concerning the “unlawfulness”.

It’s unthinkable here not to turn up for school the first day.

All that hype surrounding the “rentrée” gives pretty much proof to it.

However being German and therefore being shaped a little bit more the Skandinavian/Anglosaxon way of school life where home teaching/taking days, even weeks, off from school just for returning late/starting early for holidays is possible, it does not seem such a big thing to me anymore.

9-25-2012 at 15:39:47

I’m sorry, but I don’t see the al Hilli’s as being the type of family that enjoys a tramp in the woods. There are plenty of shops in Britain selling hiking gear, there is no need to wear ‘town’ clothes in the country and even if you haven’t got the serious equipment, one can wear trainers and jeans. I believe they were there for either an assignation or to pray in an out of the way spot. If the second, then it was a stranger murder; if the first, then that will provide the answer.

I think they were probably keeping out of the way of the mentally ill brother-in-law. They must have found out that he had made his way to England and decided to remove themselves and the mother.

Interesting that Sylvain M was a member of a strange pro-Iranian conspiracy theory group formed around the American Lyndon LaRouche, info given on Craig Murray’s site. This may be a link between the men.

9-25-2012 at 15:59:24

@Sue R, where would Craig Murray have heard that?

9-25-2012 at 16:14:17

Just for info, the school year began on the 5th September in Claygate Primary, for a morning. So, the two girls would only have missed two and a half days at most, Police have Al-Hillis phone records and no doubt have any info from the school itself. UK are considering bringing in a law that allows parents to take kids out of school during term time as so many already do it.

If you go to Craig Murray, The Al-Hilli Conundrum, comments and the last page of some 5,000, your jaw will drop at what conspiracy they are talking about now ! Mrs Clegg, Libor and Snuff Movie, check it out.

9-25-2012 at 16:19:46

Sue R – they were not likely to go hiking with a four year, seven year old and a 74 year old, who was apparently seen wearing a long garment with a hood. But they may well have been out for lunch and just having a mooch around, or the kid wanted a pee so went up a road, 3kms will not take long, until they found somewhere to stop the car – 7 year old girls would want an element of privacy.

9-25-2012 at 17:10:46

Someone (I forget who) said that they had found a leaflet from the political party that is based around LaRouche in France and Sylvain’s name was on it. It was from Ugine, so unless there are two men with the same name, it must be the same fellow.

9-25-2012 at 19:06:26

Google Jacques Cheminade, you’ll get the info, he was a candidate in this years presidentail election received about 86K votes, many of my neighbours voted Marine Le Pen, because they do not like the way they perceive France is being overrun with foreigners, they want their old France back, so SM being a member activist of JC party does not alarm me at all. Try to lookup the results of the last election town, village by village and you’ll get an idea of the people living there. This does not mean that they are in anyway like the English Defence League !

9-25-2012 at 19:56:03

@Lynda and Sue, Jacques Cheminade was the lunatic fringe of this past presidential election.

You can read about him here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/french-election-blog-2012/2012/mar/30/france-election-2012-blog-cheminade

What I can’t understand is why Sylvain Mollier would have been a supporter if he were pro-Iranian as is being said. I would have thought that anyone who supported Cheminade would have been anti-Iranian.

9-25-2012 at 20:12:17

@ Sue R.

The document from Ugine mentioning both Sylvain Mollier *and* Jacques Cheminade’s political movement “Solidarity & Progress” is from 2008 and here:

http://solidariteprogres73.elunet.fr/index.php/tag/COMIT%C3%89%20DE%20SOUTIEN

They passed a list for supporters around and must have collected Sylvain’s signature. Given he signed that “Ugine stays a mountain town” whatever that’s supposed to mean I can imagine it was an easy thing to do.

Signing this list does not mean he was member of the party or to be elected or even anywhere near their (otherwise totally crude, sometimes xenophobic) ideas.

My wife has been asked by two supporters of “S & P” to sign their list right before 2012′s presidential election when she just wanted to drop a letter by our local post office but somehow managed not to.

The internet just never forgets…wonder what lists I have been signing but can’t even remember?

9-25-2012 at 20:24:22

@ Marilyn:

As I understood it, the (false) logic on Craig Murray’s site goes the other way around:

1.) Sylvain Mollier was a member of “Solidarity & Progress”

2.) “Solidarity & Progress” is a “strange pro-Iranian conspiracy theory group formed around the American Lyndon LaRouche”

1. + 2.) Sylvain Mollier was Anti-Iranian

Not even to mention that 1.) seems wrong, also the equation is wrong.

And just as an anecdote:

Mollier must have been quite busy working at the same time for the Iranians (the Cezus-Areva-Iran-Connection mentioned earlier) AND against them (the “Solidarity & Progress”-Connection mentioned today).

:)

9-25-2012 at 20:50:04

Let politics play a role in police investigation, the ending could be a surprise …

The Curious Case of Adlène Hicheur

(Stratfor) – In addition to his work at CERN, Hicheur also reportedly worked at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory (RAL) in Oxfordshire, England, for about a year in 2005. People with hard-science backgrounds (e.g., doctors and engineers) seem for some reason to be disproportionately prone to embrace jihadist ideology.

French anti-terrorist services have said they first flagged Hicheur because of his frequent visits to radical Islamic websites. However, the order for the scientist’s arrest came only after he began exchanging emails with “Shadow Phoenix”, the alleged pseudonym of Moustapha Debchi, a key player in the north African branch of al Qaeda.

Hicheur : “j’étais le pigeon providentiel” [EN]

9-25-2012 at 21:14:10

I don’t want to waste people’s time but I just feel I must defend myself. On the Craig Murray board there is a great quantity of information posted and it is very hard to assess it for its ‘trustworthiness’ and relevance. My understanding was that the LaRouchians are actually ‘pro-Iranian’, in fact Ahmedinejad gave a speech applauding him a few years ago. It just occurred to me that it could provide a feasible point of contact between the two men, but I don’t really know. That the al Hilli family were ‘exiled’ by Saddam Hussein does not mean that they were not terrific patriots (and the Palestinian question looms large in Muslim consciousness.). I found a Bashar al Hilli who stood as a candidate in the recent Iraqi elections, but I do not know if that his sister or not. That is the problem in cultures were so many people have the same name!

9-25-2012 at 21:30:43

As there is zero new stuff, I went over some old stuff. I enhanced some pictures (Why we must do with pre 1990′ish reso pictures when everybody and his grandma has a 16 Megapixel camera is beyond me, but alas:)

http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy003.jpg
http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy003a.jpg
http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy004.jpg
http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy005.jpg

3/3a makes clear AH was doing a half turn in ‘fast reverse’
4 is the blood
5 is more blood (spot on the upper right)

These pictures (available for everyone and part of the ‘facts’) are resetting my scenario’s. I have to rethink the consequence.

I think in details (the ‘global’ stuff is for now not interesting). If 5 shows blood on the upper right. How on earth could it get there??

– Max

9-25-2012 at 22:05:57

But the chiller is when I reprocessed in ‘magenta’ numer 3

http://www.maxqubit.com/files/annecy003b.jpg

Which is mind boggling (if I understand correctly what I’m appearently seeing)

– Max

9-25-2012 at 22:50:17

3b is taken offline … be free to do your own processing in ‘magenta’

9-25-2012 at 23:00:53

@Max Thanks

After seeing this–how can anyone imagine it to be an accident.

9-25-2012 at 23:29:22

I got a call from IC;) I need to take a step back. Have fun with the pictures, and don’t forget ‘magenta’ in 3:P

Cheers,
Max

(Marilyn, thx for hosting)

9-26-2012 at 05:38:39

Someone please fill me in on photo 3b and magenta processing.

Max is gone and has taken his article down on his own site.
http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/ [Archive - cached]

Was Max ever here???

9-26-2012 at 06:48:08

Like Oui I would like to be filled in re Max. From his last comment he seems to have been forced to leave us. He wrote that he had a call from IC and which is forcing him to step back. Enlightenment please? What is IC? Thanks.

Max if you are reading this. Thanks for your contributions. You were a great asset to the discussion.

9-26-2012 at 06:49:18

@Ad- Its mind-blogging!!

9-26-2012 at 07:16:43

Where’s Max?

Nothing to be concerned about:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=IC

It can mean ‘in character’ , I believe he plays online computer games.

As for the blood in the rh corner, someone was shot before the car reversed, possibly Zainab trying to get into the car. Maybe others family members were outside the car when the shooting started.

There are other interesting photos out there, some of bullets and a gruesome one in the dark of what appears to be SM’s body (how a press photographer got that one I would like to know).

I have also been thinking about a possible scenario of a kidnapping gone wrong.

9-26-2012 at 07:40:31

@Pete R. Checked the url you gave. ‘In character’ is also used when not wishing to give a name or identity.

9-26-2012 at 08:15:13

Oh and if we are playing word games:

Chevaline (pronounced: Shev-a-leen) was a project to improve the penetrability of the warheads used by the British Polaris nuclear weapons system.

And wasn’t the crime committed in the ‘Valley of Wrath’?

So if this was an assassination a clear message has been left.

9-26-2012 at 08:21:30

@Marilyn

@Ad- Its mind-blogging!!

Nice one indeed.

9-26-2012 at 08:36:04

@Marilyn Z.

Max Qubit’s website is unchanged except for his article about Annecy killings listed under header “Mysteries.” Check these out 004 and 005. The photographer of the original is Roland Hoskins
from the Daily Mail. There were a few comment on another blog which dug more into conspiracy than specific facts.

IC;) can also indicate harassment from what I gather.

9-26-2012 at 08:49:37

… [Trackback]…

[...] Read More: marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/ [...]…

9-26-2012 at 08:49:56

@Pete R.

I agree with your observation as ;) means wink. http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/Winking-Smiley.jpg

9-26-2012 at 09:44:03

Max’s departure: Could you just be that it was a case of copyright.

I am sure he will be back.

9-26-2012 at 09:46:02

IC.Gov – a second-level domain name administered by the US Government for members of the intelligence community

9-26-2012 at 09:57:08

Thank you for your favourable review, Marilyn. I will write a sequel if and when I get that part of the story right. Its working title is now “How to kill an ever freewheeling bicyclist”. / LG

9-26-2012 at 11:09:11

@Ricki Tarr : Thanks for this. Very interesting. This is where the French say ooh la la!

9-26-2012 at 11:09:41

@Lars. Looking forward to reading it.

9-26-2012 at 11:41:32

IC is just an old friend. Magenta? … bit.ly / PniX98 … Its up to you. Cheers, M

9-26-2012 at 13:30:24

@ “M”

Thanks for uploading it again, Max!

However I don’t see anything particulary more chilling other than it is already the photo of a killing site?

9-26-2012 at 15:18:09

First post listed by IC (his codename)

The Annecy Killings (Tuerie en Haute-Savoie) « Encounters with Reality – 09.08.12

[...] http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/ This is a remark from a French person. It shows that there is doubt here too about the Chevaline killings. Un troublant point commun existe effectivement entre deux des victimes, le conducteur de la BMW et le cycliste : en effet, Saad al Hilli a des liens avec un laboratoire top secret nucléaire britannique (The Rutherford Appleton research) révèle le Mirror, et Sylvain Mollier travaillait lui aussi pour l’industrie nucléaire… Quant à l’autre cycliste, un ancien de la RAF… Bizarre, Bizarre. [...]

Second post by Max Qubit – 09.08.12

The RAF guy did it!
http://maxqubit.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/the-annecy-killings/
(keep up the good work:)

Brgds,
Max (a fellow blogger)

Third post by Max Qubit – 09.08.12

With this scenario (for the moment):

Scenario:

The RAF biker wants to kill the french biker (motive unknown) in a quiet spot. He follows the french biker (he himself ‘says’ that the french biker passed him … ok, nice story) because he knows it ends in a dead end, quiet place. There he shoots and kills the french biker with mulitiple shots (5 bullets hit the french biker) …

… BUT there are witnesses. The brits in the car. DAMN. The RAF guy fires a lot of rounds from a distance into the car (which already has the engine running, to escape?) to stop the car. …

See one of my last posts – The Curious Case of Adlène Hicheur

(Stratfor) – In addition to his work at CERN, Hicheur also reportedly worked at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory (RAL) in Oxfordshire, England, for about a year in 2005. People with hard-science backgrounds (e.g., doctors and engineers) seem for some reason to be disproportionately prone to embrace jihadist ideology.

There are now three “magenta” filtered photo’s posted: 004, 005 and 006.

The very last hints/instructions given by IC under pseudonym Homepage

… [Trackback]…

[...] Read More: marilynztomlins.com/articles/chevaline-the-forgotten-victim-sylvain-mollier/ [...]…

Pseudonym M.

IC is just an old friend. Magenta? … bit.ly / PniX98 … Its up to you. Cheers, M

Max has solved this massacre. Game over.

My conclusion: state sponsored elimination.

9-26-2012 at 15:34:01

@Oui — I am now totally confused … Please explain …

9-27-2012 at 02:34:06

LEGAL RESTRICTIONS – MOLLIER

I thought it was ILLEGAL to “move a dead body” as RAF Martin SAID he “moved the body.” If it IS “illegal”, then why wasn’t Martine ever charged? THIS fact ALONE raises suspicions about him.They IMMEDIATELY “aired” HIS story, but NONE of the other witnesses…WHY?!!

I would like to know french laws on this.

Thank you

9-27-2012 at 07:26:37

@Your name — We have been discussing this. One is not charged for ‘moving a body’ when one comes across a scene where there is a body or bodies lying about. One is questioned and one’s DNA is taken for obvious reasons. If the investigators have no reason to believe one had killed the murdered or had caused the accident in which had caused the death, then one is free. If not then, naturally, one is considered a suspect and either held provisionally or immediately charged. One common sense however tells us not to touch a dead body because one can destroy evidence. Should someone be on the ground or floor and still breathing one’s common sense also tells one not to move that person because the injuries could be such that moving the injured could be fatal.

9-27-2012 at 07:48:07

Anecdotally. My ex-husband was staggering around for an hour after a seemingly ‘fatal’ blow from a tree winch. His head was crushed in. Admittedly he was not shot, but the doctors were amazed by the will to survive.

9-27-2012 at 08:42:46

@j cave — you did not perhaps give him that blow to the head? Only joking of course.

9-27-2012 at 09:17:17

As we have been looking at the photos in a new light, here is a first hand description of the crime scene from “The Independent”. Note blood had been covered by soil and the suspicious gash filled (why?).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/annecy-shootings-on-a-steep-forest-road-few-signs-of-the-horror-that-was-8118200.html

9-27-2012 at 10:13:55

Your Comments

Thanks Pete for the link to the independent article – that was one I must have missed earlier. When you read it you have to ask yourself “WHY are there blood stained leaves on the ground?” One would expect that in a multiple murder investigation such as this every shred of evidence (including blood stained leaves) would be collected for analysis. I am still surprised at how early the crime scene was reopened to the public. Makes you wonder if either the police already know who is responsible for this massacre or Inspector Clouseau is in charge.

Too many unanswered questions in this case and it doesn’t look like those questions will ever be answered

9-27-2012 at 10:28:26

OMG!!!! (as the young ones say). No idea who did it, but just found out some interesting things on ‘linked in’. Try it for yourself, starting with ‘Balsam al HIlli’. Following the links you will find that there are interconnections between the principal players. Oil seems to play a part, as well as technology. That may explain why the French police said that it was ‘industrial espinage rather than military.’.

9-27-2012 at 10:53:11

‘espionage’

9-27-2012 at 11:38:42

Does anyone know if there are public french files/registers where you can find
1. recent court orders (mainly in lower courts)
2. people that have died or have been born
If so are they reachable on the internet?

9-27-2012 at 12:58:03

If I were the French coppers (les flics), I’d like to know if:

a) Brett Martin was present at the meeting between Mr al Hilli and M Mollier.

b) had he already left the meeting, and turned back when he heard the shots,

c) if he was present, why wasn’t he shot too.

Do the POlice have confirmation that the timeline is as Brett Martin says it was?

If you hear of a middle-aged lady in NOrth London being found dead in suspicious circumstances, you’ll know I was on to something!!!!

9-27-2012 at 13:02:50

Incidentally, the reason why the media is not playing this up very much is not nascent racism. Unlike the McCann’s who were a normal, middle-class family with no political clout, the al-Hilli’s were rather well-connected at very high levels. I remember when I studied sociology donkey’s years ago that it was a truism that it is only the ‘poor’ who are studied because the ‘rich’ don’t like the prying.

9-27-2012 at 13:15:18

@Lars : 1. The French are secretive, so no, they do not make court documents public.

2. Same here: secrecy rules the day. However, if you know when the person that interests you died then you can always go on to ‘find a grave’.

3. No, the people who have died won’t be reachable on the internet. Maybe through a medium with a ouija board. (OK, not to worry, I am just trying to be funny: I well understand your question,but again I have to say that the French are a secretive people.)

9-27-2012 at 13:15:22

So the police spend two weeks taking the Al-Hilli house to pieces to find a motive and find nothing they are willing to tell us about. Does anyone know whether they have searched the houses of SM, BM (in France & England), the brother and grandmother?

9-27-2012 at 13:17:45

@Sue – do share with us what you find out, OK? Must say however,that I have for some time been checking to see who’s coming up behind me because of all the murders I’m writing about.

As for your questions: The French are not saying anything, so if you could not find replies to a,b, and c in the British papers, then no, we do not know.

9-27-2012 at 13:48:19

If you view Saad al HIlli’s profile, then on the side bar ‘Sylvain Mollier France’ and ‘Theresa Martin Silver Ferm’ is shown (among others.). Is that because the police have been clicking on them or because they are linked? Over on Craig Murray’s site, someone has discovered that that there are some people with the surname ‘Martin’ living at Balsam al Hilli’s address. She is curently in Iraq organising a political party. It is not knodwn whether these Martins are related or not.

It was a rhetorical question about the questions put ot Brett Martin, I doubt whether the police are ready to say anything yet. By the way, another interesting snippet I found in the papers yesterday was that when the Iraqi Embassy in London was cleared recently, they found a locked safe. They had to call in safecrackers to open it. Inside was found a cache of old weapons. I just wonder if the gun used in this assassination could have come from there?

9-27-2012 at 14:35:51

To tidy up I’ve relocated the magenta stuff

Animated: http://bit.ly/OXj6nU
Single images: http://bit.ly/SSUBDV | http://bit.ly/PniX98 | http://bit.ly/PrXBrj | http://bit.ly/P9h7HG

IC=InspectorCloseau?;) No, but if you want to know it was the I Ching (and there goes my credibility:P)

Anyway, the stuff is upthere for public. I have taken down my blogpost because it contains NO relevant info … all info is found in this thread.

So it is up to you, my fellow armchair detectives (AD=ArmchairDetective?;) … as said, I’m taking a step back to make room for other things I have so neglected (music, photography, gaming, work, etc.)

M;)

9-27-2012 at 14:40:48

http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Faits-divers/Actualite/Le-scenario-minute-par-minute-de-la-tuerie-de-Chevaline-555890

This is worth reading, the builder says a child was in the passenger seat and two adults, probably women in the rear. He also says as I found out sometime ago by using Google Earth that there is another road that joins the ascent to the Combre d’Ire a 100 metres or so after the house he was working on, which is British owned, by the way. This other road is more direct for Mollier arriving from Ugine and looks so for Martin arriving from Lathuile. So, anything going up or down from the parking did not have to pass the builder.

9-27-2012 at 16:00:54

@Lynda – thanks.

9-27-2012 at 16:03:27

@M — Max — aka Inspector Clouseau …

What’s the red stuff on the ground? Blood?

9-27-2012 at 16:04:53

@Sue R – it’s a thought Sue …

9-27-2012 at 16:05:41

@ Pete. R. – No such searches were reported in our French papers.

9-27-2012 at 17:35:05
9-27-2012 at 18:10:06

But true, the ‘investigation’ has a striking resemblance to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64yianfGvzc :)

9-27-2012 at 19:09:38

@IC – You’ve got me laughing!!!This was the funniest film I’ve ever seen. That last bit – not my dog – is hilarious. Peter Sellers r.i.p.

9-27-2012 at 19:15:24

:IC — What to say? When I stop laughing I’ll think of something…

9-27-2012 at 21:05:36

Re Lynda:

http://www.lejdd.fr/Societe/Faits-divers/Actualite/Le-scenario-minute-par-minute-de-la-tuerie-de-Chevaline-555890

Please excuse my poor understanding of French. But aren’t any of you suspicious of the 15 year old ‘giant’ illegally riding around the forest on his 125cc motorbike and sneaking home via a secret route when he heard the cops coming?

Maybe Lars’ story is nearer the truth than he ever imagined!

9-27-2012 at 21:59:37

@M … But with all his clumsyness Inspector Clouseau still solved the mystery in the end. Anyway, I have the movie ‘The Pink Panther Strikes Again’ and will have a good laugh tonight rewatching it:)

9-28-2012 at 06:43:25

@Pete.R.Nothing makes sense.

9-28-2012 at 09:04:14

@ Pete.R.

Grandmother’s apartment was to be searched.

9-28-2012 at 09:39:40
9-28-2012 at 10:10:32

Pete R, I was about to do the same – I listened to the programme last night, way back I wondered if the death of the father would mean the house became part of the inheritance and tax.

Regarding the motorcycle giant, was this the kid that Brett Martin saw coming down the hill before his arrival at the clearing and since then the kid has been interviewed and confirmed he saw BM. Also with the two access to the Route, has the 4×4 been confirmed as Forestry Commission and again confirmed that a cyclist was seen on the road?

They would have been off the hill before the emergency vehicles arrived according to the timeline given by BM.

9-28-2012 at 11:18:44

I know the timings are perhaps a bit adrift, but the TrailbikeKid must have come down the road past the lay-by if he saw RAFman as stated. Was the BMW there then? waiting, as it has been surmised? Did the kid say he had seen it? Even if he came down the river he would have noted the car as it was not French.
But he says he heard the gunshots when he was riding round in the forest. A lot of perplexing stuff again which doesn’t sit well.

9-28-2012 at 11:30:58

So many extra perplexing questions.
Did the kid see SM on the road too?
Surely he would pass the layby, even if he trailbiked down the ravine if he saw BM downhill of the layby.?
Was the BMW there then? He would notice it was not a French car. Were people in it or off on a walk? Did he see them on their walk ?
Have the police deconstructed the local home of this witness?

9-28-2012 at 11:56:03

Have a look at the comments section, there are only three, what do you make of the one at 01:21hrs ?

Someone with a sick sense of humour or our Flight Captain ?

9-28-2012 at 15:42:04

@Lynda — I can’t find the o1.21 hours comment? I did trash two comments earlier this morning, so perhaps it was one of those which you read before I trashed it.

9-28-2012 at 15:42:52

@J cave : Did the kid see anything at all or is he after publicity?

9-28-2012 at 16:08:56

Marilyn, I was referring to the comments below the most recent article I linked, there are three, this being the one posted at 01:21hrs:

• Je pense que Saad s’est arrêté pour permettr à sa fille Zeinab de faire pipi dans les fourrés,et c à ce moment que le tueur a agit. La cible était Sylvain, mais les Saad ont été des témoins génants… « »
Signalez un abus
lundi 17 septembre 2012 01h21 Par CBrett

9-28-2012 at 16:23:53

@Lynda – It is a new explanation for sure. It would explain why she was not in the car.

Consider this scenario: Saad said they were on a boring road and the girls were getting agitated because they were tired and hungry, so he was going to make a u-turn so that they could go back. Zainab then said that she has to spend a penny and her father said then she must quickly jump out and do so behind a tree. He kept the engine running, but at that moment Sylvain cycles up and … the killer who was waiting for him strikes …

As for the CBrett, I think it is a coincidence — Brett Martin … CBrett.

9-28-2012 at 16:29:32

Bit off piste again sorry . . but I was amazed to see pages and pages of comments on this article . . . both pro and ante hunting with guns. My French is only medium but I got the giste.
Britain is a tiny overpopulated country with very little wild country where hunting could even happen. Some organised bird shooting is allowed but not wandering around looking for ‘sport’ in national parks. Well maybe back in the medievals.
I understand in France which has a much greater space ‘local’ people feel they have a right to source food in the great outdoors. I know from experience that wild asparagus and mushroomy places are closely guarded secrets, although they are in a sense public and not to be owned.
I live in an area where a enormous number of tourists (global) come in the summer and we joke around quite a bit about the SUV’s blocking the lanes etc etc. I understand the symbiotic relationship with ‘strangers’ needed in modern life. Only last week I caused consternation on the bus, when I offered my seat to some Hawaiian visitors so their children could sit at the front of the double decker. Apparently wouldn’t happen in the US. This is very sad.
Not sure what my point is really other than it looks like the hunting thing is a very touchy issue.

9-28-2012 at 16:30:47
9-28-2012 at 16:34:22
9-28-2012 at 16:39:25

I made this statement sometime back and again more recently maybe were even actively looking for a quiet place to stop, possibly no opportunity before the clearing (?) as for CBrett, could it be Captain Brett, the French isn’t fabulous, but by the abbreviations probably done using a mobile.

This would please Max, as it could be viewed as a confession ……

9-28-2012 at 19:37:17

@J cave : I am anti-hunting, yet I do like the occassional wild boar stew or grilled ostrich steak – not that ostrichs are hunted down like the wild board. I’ve even tried kangaroo.

Here in France our hunting season has just opened which means that butchers, supermarkets and other food stores may now sell venison. When the hunting season closes in the spring, then it will be forbidden again.

9-28-2012 at 19:38:14

Lynda, Max goes on a sabbatical every few days…

9-28-2012 at 20:06:09

…. and I’m leaving the country over the weekend, for three weeks – no internet in tow, so I look forward to hearing the world news on an old radio that says they have solved the crime and the ‘perp’ in custody. Somehow, I doubt it ……

Great interacting with you and your posters.

9-28-2012 at 20:14:53

@M … lol

But from http://bit.ly/OXj6nU it is quite simple to figure out what happened (not knowing the why/motive)

Look at the blood on the right. 2 pools. 1 for the head, 1 for the body. The spot matches with the frontwheels of the BMW. A 4×4, I checked, so the ‘hard reverse turn’ would leave marks and the upped marks are from the frontwheels.

This will tell you that SM (it must be his blood) was at the driverwindow of AH. Possibly talking to him.

Now the killer comes probably from behind (roadside). Shoots SM (primary target). And possibly already finishes him off with headshot -> You see that this stream of blood goes downhill.

AH tries to escape doing the hard reverse half turn. Killer prevents this by firing into the BMW. Succeeds walks over to the BMW and kills the three in the car.

Girl perhaps takes a bullet when she runs around. Killer hits her for dead.

That was the easy part:P

The bullet casings UNDER the car??
The SM body NEAR the car??
BM????

Anyway, the killer starts to … I dunno … but he carries the SM body around to near the car … to make it look like (well I dunno, accident? or to make it look like AH was primary target? Your guess is as good as mine)

Ahhh, the casings … he collects the casings from the right side of the parking and throws them under the car (now at the left)

Then he escapes

-> the only clue is that he kinda forgot to clean up the SM blood:) Even the police forgot this, good ol’ Magenta:) BM says he found SM kinda in front of the car??

If BM is the killer … well he could tell everything, but if BM is NOT the killer … what on earth was the real killer doing with moving around SM’s body??????

….

Anyway ‘Murder in Magenta’ is big fun. But I really can’t tell who did it and most surely I can’t teel WHY …. But from my point-of-view SM was the main target … poor SM:)

But c’mon, this is all elementary. The police MUST know this already;) so we do not have to worry, everything is under control. For sure there are reasons why the ‘investigation’ is going the way it is going. But as said, as a puzzle it is great fun. Beter than Sudoku:) Btw, I did see ‘The Pink Panther Strikes ‘Again’ … Hilarious:)

Sabatical M

9-29-2012 at 10:40:20

@Max, M., Homepage, IC, etc.

Thanks for the challenge, codes and puzzling entertainment. A pity the official investigation is under wraps. In a shock to the public, the massacre needs to be resolved soon and an indication who the perpetrators were is very welcome. The hard reality and lives lost should not be part of any political game.

9-29-2012 at 13:51:03

@Lynda. Enjoy yourself.

9-29-2012 at 14:04:20

@Max who is now M – I’ve been staring at the magenta photo. I will reveal that I have a problem with left and right,alway having to think to decide which is which. (This is apparently a problem with many women!!)

However, the BMW was a right-hand drive. Therefore if SM stood talking to AH he would have been standing on the right-hand side of the car. No matter how I picture the car in different positions, the blood is always on the left-hand side of the car.

You will therefore realise that I am no Clouseau.

Peter Sellers was always a favourite of mine. In a biography I read that he often answered the phone in one of his many voices, so even if he answered in his own voice, the caller was never sure to be speaking to him. Do you know that he should not have died. He needed a heart op and went to Cape Town to consult Prof. Chris Barnard and despite that Barnard explained to him that the op was really quite banal, he was too scared to have it.

9-29-2012 at 16:19:09

@M

AH did a backwards(!) half turn (arc) So the car in original position (with the front towards the woods, and the back towards the road) was with the righthand (UK) driver seat to the right, just next to the blood.

If you have problems visualiziing this (and most women are not good in this, afterall it were men that were the ‘hunters’ and for a hunter it is important to be able to ‘right guess’ your prey movements in 3d+time space … so for men it is genetically ingrained:) print the magenta picture, cut out a car model and place it near the blood … now perform a backwards half turn (arc) and you will end where the car was found.

M

9-29-2012 at 17:51:16

@M will do so. Thanks.

9-30-2012 at 08:52:16

A short linguistic digression:

Revenge and Retribution by a Melodramatic Murderer.

A victim whos name can be interpreted “being at a humid place in the forest” killed in a forest by a brook/river called “ire”, riding on his iron horse through a village called “chevaline” to he valley “combe d’ire”, on the way home, to his new, very young “wife” and their baby.
However his body was probably initially not intended to be found.
Alors cherchez la femme!

9-30-2012 at 13:09:10

@Lars: no woman in this case,I think.Women are normally gentle ….

9-30-2012 at 13:41:01

Probably not as murderer (don’t forget four female victims (in one sense or another)).
Men though often kill for or because of women. So “cherchez la femme” is only meant metaphorically.

9-30-2012 at 15:45:13

Hi everyone : I added an update to my article. I’m sure you will find it interesting, so do read it.

Meanwhile, I see that a Sylvain Mollier’s profile has been deleted from facebook. Check it out too.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1834867915&sk=wall

9-30-2012 at 15:45:53

@Lars – men also often kill women …

9-30-2012 at 18:40:49

Above is mentioned the BBC article by Simon Cox. Please notice that there is also a radio programme by the same journalist to listen to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mx27j
Even though it does not add much to what is already “known” and focuses mainly on motive instead of the crime it could still be worth listen to.

9-30-2012 at 19:32:31

Fait divers: tuerie en Haute-Savoie

This article reveals a bit about cyclist Sylvain Mollier. He worked for 20 years at Cézus/Areva in Ugine, the zirconium plant for specialized nuclear parts as head of production. This would establish more than average knowledge of manufacturing at Cézus/Areva.

“Sylvain, a man described in his village as someone lonely, very nice and honest, worked at the factory Cezus, foundry group Areva where he was head of production.”

His unfortunate partner Claire Schutz works in a pharmacy of her parents in Grignon near Ugine.

9-30-2012 at 19:48:27
9-30-2012 at 19:53:33

Photo of crime scene Drummond massacre and source.

10-1-2012 at 06:54:24

@Lars @ Thanks! Will listen

10-1-2012 at 06:57:12

@Oui : I wrote about the Drummonds in detail in the article I wrote before this one. The BBC is therefore slow with their story.

You can read what I wrote here

http://www.marilynztomlins.com/articles/150-inhabitants-300-cows-and-now-british-murder-victims-in-a-place-named-chevaline/

10-1-2012 at 07:36:54

I read this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2004/apr/17/weekend7.weekend8

and Wikipedia on the Drummonds.

Somehow seems like a copy cat murder…

When I said sometime earlier of the Luger P08 7.65 .32 ACP in the al-Hilli case “the gun speaks” it was an original quote from what the detective said in the Drummond’s case.

Somehow interestingly though, although the murder weapon was to believed pretty common among the rural folks living around the Drummond killing site it might be that the real killer/s were not at all local, shading some shadow on my local gun nut theory in the al-Hilli case.