On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 – today, almost nine months ago –  the Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli was shot to death in Haute Savoie (Upper Savoy) in France. He, his family – wife, two small daughters and his mother-in-law – were on holiday in this very beautiful area of France. His wife and mother-in-law […]



Saad Al-Hilli

Saad Al-Hilli

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 – today, almost nine months ago –  the Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli was shot to death in Haute Savoie (Upper Savoy) in France. He, his family – wife, two small daughters and his mother-in-law – were on holiday in this very beautiful area of France.

His wife and mother-in-law were also shot dead and the elder of the daughters was also shot as well as beaten over her head, but she survived. Mrs Saad Al-Hilli had the reflex to hide the younger daughter under her dress on the rear floor of the family’s BMW.

Also shot to death was a French cyclist who might or might not have been the primary target.

We, here on this blog, have been speculating about what had happened that September day from almost the day the media first reported the murders.

One of us, Alexander Cartier, went to Haute Savoie this past April and filmed the lay-by where the killing had taken place. You can watch his very interesting video here on YouTube.


 UPDATE Friday, May 31, 2013.


Great frustration is being expressed over the slowness of the French investigators to solve this atrocious murder, especially so when September 5 approaches and the French prosecutor’s office releases some small detail about the investigation, but as quickly fall silent again.

So, how long will the investigation continue before it will be classified as a ‘cold case’.

In France a case remains open for as long as the examining magistrate considers it necessary. There is a requirement though: the examining magistrate must regularly have a fresh lead to justify further investigation or the State will close the case because of inactivity on the part of the judiciary. A case could thus remain open indefinitely provided there is proof of judicial activity.

What if a suspect is named and the individual is not in France? Say the investigators do not even know his (or her) whereabouts?

In such a case, the French judiciary can indict the suspect and liaise with Interpol to issue an International Arrest Warrant. This means that the police of the 190 member states of Interpol are authorized to arrest the suspect. The French can also proceed to put the murderer on trial in absentia. This had happened in 1995 with the Kalinka Bamberski Case when the teenager’s rapist and murderer, the German doctor Dieter Krombach, was sentenced to 15 years incarceration. On his arrest in France in 2011 a retrial was held and the 15-year sentence was confirmed.

In a trial in absentia there will be no jury and the presiding judge, assisted by two magistrates, will pass their verdict. In such a trial the accused could, by law, be represented by a counsel who would plead his case: the counsel would be chosen by the accused’s family. In the event of a guilty verdict the counsel would not be allowed to appeal.

If you wish to read previous posts about this shooting at Chevaline on September 5, 2012 you can do so

here written on 12.09.12

here written on 11.07.12

here  written on 10.25.12

here written on 09.08.12

here written on 09.06.12





Marilyn Z. Tomlins

633 Responses

5-31-2013 at 13:13:41

Hello, here I am.

5-31-2013 at 13:30:49


I have actually only worked with the station part of mobile networks never with the phones themselves (even though I have worked for one of the big telecom companies).

The station will receive signals from the phone, and identify it, as long as it is on, no matter if the user make any calls or not. This is necessary for among other things the roaming function.

As I said before, the stations save the information about these signals to a larger extent and for a longer time than even some telecom executives know.

5-31-2013 at 14:36:02

@ Lars

Thanks for the explanation. I have checked: In Germany, police could in theory get standby data (i. e., data transmitted without calls or other active communications taking place) as well, but they don’t, for legal reasons. It is a controversial legal issue, but the mainstream legal opinion is that some actual communication (over and above data transmitted in standby mode) must have taken place, and that police must have reasonable grounds for believing that the perpetrator(s) actively communicated during the time period in question, as is the case for example with serial burglaries committed by gangs, where it’s a fair assumption that the burglars will have a lookout with whom they communicate via mobile phone.

What the situation in France is, whether police can only request communication data or standby data as well, I have absolutely no idea. Until that point is clarified, I’m afraid that we must assume that the situation could be similar to that in Germany, in that the police are not getting all the data which the stations could provide.

5-31-2013 at 14:45:32

@ Eugene:

I wrote I don’t remember having no network up there – that should mean I had.


5-31-2013 at 15:24:37

Marilyn, I watched that video and what struck me was how remote that area was where the killings took place. I got a clearer picture of the area from the video than I did watching it on TV at the time.

5-31-2013 at 16:00:30

French Authorities
You are being too slow
I am starting to take matters into my own hands
you have been warned !

5-31-2013 at 17:02:10


It is remote and as Alexander told us he did not pass any other vehicle.

5-31-2013 at 17:02:44

@Fat Bastard

That sounds dangerous!

5-31-2013 at 17:35:44

email is mightier than the sword
I have started
now where is my old school address book 😉

5-31-2013 at 17:41:21

@FB (rephrasing JCave)

E-Mail is mightier than E-Maillaud. 🙂

5-31-2013 at 17:43:40

@ Fat Bastard

Don’t do anything unbright. The French authorities may be slow, but they have absolutely nothing to do with Social Services’ decision to put the AH daughters into a foster family under police protection. That decision is Social Services’ alone. Even if the French police locked up a guilty-as-sin suspect tomorrow, the SS might still not allow Zainab and Zeena to live with their relatives. They are the ones you need (a lawyer) to deal with.

The French police might even be able to help your cause to some extent. There is no guarantee that they will play along, but, if I were in your shoes, I should have my lawyer write a nice letter to Eric Clouseau (in French, of course – he doesn’t speak English, which in French eyes makes him the perfect man to represent the French side in a joint French-UK investigation), asking him whether, judging from his knowledge of the facts, the stringent security arrangements in place for Zainab and Zeena are really necessary, and whether SM’s children are subject to similar arrangements. Who knows? Maybe he’ll express complete surprise at the protective measures taken.

Likewise, I should ask the Surrey Chief Constable for her view on the threat assessment regarding Zainab and Zeena. The police have no say in these security arrangements, either. They can only decide these matters off their own bat for 72 hours. Afterwards, they just do as they are told, whether they believe it’s sensible or not.

5-31-2013 at 17:59:35

@ Alex

I’m sorry. Must have misunderstood what you meant. In any case, according to the SFR chart I posted, the signal up there should be under – 115 dBm, so probably too weak to connect successfully using a standard 2w mobile device. Lars should be able to tell us more about this.

@ Fat Bastard

I have a naive question for you, as I understand you are in touch with several members of Saad’s family.
Since Zainab’s life was probably saved by Mr Brett-Martin’s heroic action of putting her in the recovery position, I take it for granted that her relatives must have later felt the need to express their deepest gratitude to him. Can you provide us with any details regarding the type of contact they had in that respect?

5-31-2013 at 21:11:13


Lynda is going to be silent for a while because of a slight health problem. Nothing serious. She will be following comments though.

Lynda, get well soon. We are going to miss you because you are a valuable commentator – and friend!

6-1-2013 at 00:08:40


I must reiterate to you that no one outside the immediate family has access to Zainab and Zeena. Until the investigation is drawn to a satisfactory conclusion the girls safety and anonimity is of paramount importance.

Although I am the Family Liaison Officer Social Services has full parental resposibility of both the gilrs. If you wish to pursue any course of action then all communication must be directed to Social Services.

The Senior Management of the Major Crime Team are aware of your interest and agree that in this matter we cannot be of any further assistance to you.


6-1-2013 at 00:12:00

I dont have direct contact with the family
my friendship was with Saad
I could phone Zaid but i dont want to disturb him
I went to the regular shop today (where Saad bought Iraqi special foods)
and left my details
someone might get back to me

6-1-2013 at 00:15:37

@peter re lawyers
I dont know if you have noticed but
Legal aid has been decimated in the UK
the lawyers who i have contacted
1. want £300 minimum to talk
2.say there is no precedent in this case and hence can not help
£300 is a lot of money and im sure they would want more and more

6-1-2013 at 00:17:48

do you hold a British passport ?
and how many digits does its number hold ?

6-1-2013 at 08:46:15

Good morning.

Bacchus let me know that the link to this new thread does not work on the previous thread. I tested it this minute and it does work. Anyway, I sent him the link again. I trust no one else is having that problem.

Have a nice sunny day. It is shining in Paris. Will be at Roland Garros centre court today.

6-1-2013 at 09:47:49


I have for several months been contemplating various methods to push this case forward. Especially during times when the developments are unbearingly slow and my own powers feel very inadequate.

I have been thinking about lawyers and I have even been thinking about hiring a private detective to get information about certain persons that I suspect of foul play.

I agree that both are rather expensive alternatives and you never know what you will get out of it, if anything.

Perhaps you should set up a fund to raise the money, for example to pay the cost for a lawyer. Even if £300+ is a sum that perhaps noone is prepared to pay for themselves, it is not a lot of money when a number of people are contributing, even with the risk that they will “lose” their money.
Perhaps you could also find a lawyer with a social interest that is prepared to take on the case without the intentions to earn as much money as possible.


Hope you will get well soon!

/. Lars

6-1-2013 at 10:36:09

@ Fat Bastard

What kind of sly-bastard question is that, about the number of digits in my British passport? I have never held a UK passport.

However, from what little I know about English law, I’m afraid that you basically do not have a leg to stand upon, neither being a relative nor in some other way officially appointed as guardian or steward or “McKenzie friend” of the children. You have no hope whatsoever of being granted legal aid for the same reason. Your best bet IMHO would be to try to find a pro-bono lawyer through an organization such as Liberty. I have given you their contact details before. They *might* be interested in taking on this case precisely because there is no precedent and because it touches upon important human-rights issues.

6-1-2013 at 10:56:37

My approach to the (legal) case would be to question the authorities legal grounds for keeping the girls isolated and away from their family. I believe that it is a case that any citizen could pursue, even a civil rights movement.

I know from own experience that authorities can be very sure that they have the right to take certain actions, until that right is questioned in court. When they have to explain themselves before a judge the whole matter suddenly becomes much more complicated.

6-1-2013 at 11:14:48

sorry mistook you for someone else
a few british comms specialist in the early 1990s
had british passports with distinctive numbers
so they could get their equipment across borders quicker

6-1-2013 at 13:53:06

@ Fat Bastard

I see. Well, I wish I had one of those passports, to help me get my “gear” across borders.

Here is the next best thing to a lawyer, his advice is free, and he ought to know something about this particular subject:

If you should have no joy with him and with Liberty and with the Human Rights Commission, let me know.

6-1-2013 at 13:57:14

@ All

For what it’s worth, since we now know law enforcement have been eagerly looking for a RHD gray SUV in the vicinity, here’s one easy to find. Link below.

Of course, it’s a far shot from a BMW X5, but I tend to think many Haute-Savoie residents may find it difficult, especially from a distance or on a short and random encounter, to reliably tell the difference in between similar vehicles of different makes. I am well aware the Annecy area is a favorite with British visitors, so there might have been quite a few such cars in that area at that time. Still, were I in the investigators’ shoes, I’d probably start by excluding whatever leads are at hand before searching for “pink elephants”. In any case, it’d be quite interesting to know if that car was still parked on the property in the early afternoon. Neighbors should know. Small community. No vow of silence.

Likewise, on a further scrutiny of that famous aerial photo of Saad’s car in the aftermath, left apart the red “splash” in the trunk that caught the attention of some of us, I eventually ended up zooming in into various other parts of the vehicle. Now just take a look at the following cropped section of that picture, showing what would have been in the driver’s seat. Below.

Like in the old Antonioni’s movie “Blow-Up”, it’s hard to tell whether you’re just focusing on an accidental misleading artifact or else watching something significant and disturbing. In any case, behind the shattered windshield, you are somehow tempted to vaguely see the -awkwardly doctored- remnants of a person’s silhouette, looking upwards. Odd. Did Saad wear a mustache in his final days, or is it more like the French Gendarme cliché, or just my imagination only?

6-1-2013 at 16:14:29

E-Mail is mightier than E-Maillaud

Classic . . .

Found thread works fine from home page

6-1-2013 at 16:49:06

@Peter 5-30-2013 at 11:36:31

“If my family had been whacked in France and Eric Clouseau put in charge of the case, if I had read his line that solving the case might ten years, I know what I would do …”

@Alex 5-30-2013 at 14:08:30

“If it had happened to my family I’d find the killer on my own.
Like with almost everything in France, you’re better off on your own in solving it.”

@Fat Bastard 5-31-2013 at 16:00:30

I am starting to take matters into my own hands
you have been warned !

To follow this path we have a strong ally. He’s called Noel Mercier, a former policeman Anti-Crime Brigade night. He is the father of GM.

Who better than he can do what you suggest to do?

If I were the father of GM …

6-1-2013 at 17:09:29


Thanks for the new link, because I try again now on the last thread and continue to appears :

perhaps only on my computer.

6-1-2013 at 17:11:37

@ JCave

Right on.
Don’t let the bed bugs bite.

6-1-2013 at 17:31:32

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins 5-31-2013 at 21:11:13

“Lynda is going to be silent for a while because of a slight health problem. “

Me too, after seeing the video of GM, I got sick.

6-1-2013 at 17:57:45


I think it looks vaguely like one of these (hacker) anonymous masks!

6-1-2013 at 20:03:46

@Lars 6-1-2013 at 17:57:45

Exactly, perhaps a sublimal message.

6-1-2013 at 21:15:03

@ Bacchus
It isn’t just your computer: Marilyn’s link to this new thread contained a number of HTML syntax errors. I wasn’t able to get here by following that link, either, whereas other posters could, but maybe that’s due to the fact that you and I are using advanced machinery light-years ahead of standard Windoze PCs, to wit, Apple Macintoshes.

@ Bacchus #2
I think that your idea of contacting Noel Mercier is great. Whether or not there really is any overlap between these cases, he could potentially be a very valuable contact indeed, given that he is both a local and a former policeman. How do you suggest we go about contacting him? His own contact details are clear enough:

Do you want to: 1. contact him independently and keep us posted about the results? 2. let us work out a message to him together, let one of us translate it, and let the designated sender keep us in the loop? 3. something else? My own French sadly isn’t good enough for me to confidently write about such a complex matter; otherwise, I should have been quite happy to contact him directly.

Whichever way you want to do this, you can count upon me to do my bit.

6-1-2013 at 22:15:00
6-1-2013 at 22:18:10

thanks for the link

UK tv ch4 on thursday 22.00 hrs might be interesting

6-1-2013 at 22:44:27

@Eugene (6-1-2013 at 13:57:14)

“Like in the old Antonioni’s movie “Blow-Up”, it’s hard to tell whether you’re just focusing on an accidental misleading artifact or else watching something significant and disturbing. In any case, behind the shattered windshield, you are somehow tempted to vaguely see the -awkwardly doctored- remnants of a person’s silhouette, looking upwards. Odd. Did Saad wear a mustache in his final days, or is it more like the French Gendarme cliché, or just my imagination only?”

I didn’t see it at first but having seen it, I find it horribly disturbing, but reason tells me it must be some optical trick. I wish I hadn’t seen “it” though! The stuff of nightmares.

I’ve not contributed for a while (nothing to add) but have been following.

6-1-2013 at 22:54:46

@ Eugene:

Who’s Audi Q5 is on that photo?


6-1-2013 at 23:08:59


#1 – No, I use an ancestral pc with windows xp sp3. But I agree with you of Apple.

#2– I agree with your interest of this idea. Finally we have a possibilty to an active work. It’s totaly different of our comments based on suppositions without future.

I propose Marilyn for this work, because it is her blog and she is a journalist. The approach will be easier and more effective.

If, for personal reasons, Marilyn don’t accept this responsibility, I suggest Alex. It is an active and dynamic member, as he has already proven.

Myself, I am a simple citizen and I do not have a lot of arguments to convince Mr. Noel Mercier (or daughter) to enter the blog MZT.

Marilyn, Alex or an other commentator should offer Mr. Noel Mercier to enter the blog MZT.

If nobody does, then it is I who will.

6-2-2013 at 00:09:44

@ Bacchus
If nobody does, then it is I who will.
Same here. I think that for Mr. Noel Mercier to join this (public) discussion might be quite a big step. Perhaps he has no such qualms, in which case everything is going to be easy; perhaps he might feel daunted by the prospect. If the latter, we must offer him some means of private contact, for example via I second your idea that Marilyn would be the most suitable person to get in touch with him initially. If everything else fails, several of us might beg him to reconsider.

@ Lars
Did you notice how “Philippe Didierjean” has transmogrified into a “Philippe Bossy” in this article, and how hos role has been subtly redefined?

The hiker, Mr Bossy also tells how he was alerted to the killing by another passer-by, British cyclist Brett Martin. As the two men surveyed the scene, Mr Bossy drew a link between Mr Martin’s British accent and the British number plates on Mr Hilli’s car, and began to mistakenly worry that Mr Martin might in fact be the killer. Panicking for his own safety, he even tried to punch him at one point, but Mr Martin was able to convince him that he was mistaken.

6-2-2013 at 00:16:04

@Bacchus et al.

Good idea about Noel Mercier


I hope somebody will put that Ch. 4 program on YouTube so we all can watch it.


I can answer for Eugene since I remember the reg. number: Brett-Martin

6-2-2013 at 00:23:52


That would surely be breaking news if somebody called Philippe Bossy will appear on that documentary and tell a whole other story!

But I will wait until one of our English friends have seen it and can verify that, I am not sure if Mr Colin Freeman right yet.

I will however start searching for a Philippe Bossy.

6-2-2013 at 00:45:16

I wouldn’t be surprised if there will be an article in Sunday Times by Peter Allen on this documentary, perhaps tomorrow/today?

6-2-2013 at 00:45:37

Peter 6-2-2013 at 00:09:44

Bossy is the cloud of smok, “la vache laitière Marguerite”

We are too close of this case

I have prepared an e-mail for Mr. Noel Mercier.

I’m waiting for the instructions of Marilyn

6-2-2013 at 00:51:27

There is a Philippe Bossy in Annecy. This will be very interesting if they also show him on film.

6-2-2013 at 00:55:56

This is Philippe Bossy, Annecy ( His picture is somewhat blurred. 😉

6-2-2013 at 01:13:17

Perhaps Marilyn could replace the name Xavier Baligant in the thread title to Gregory Mercier to convince his father to participate.

I believe that it is a much bigger chance that there is a connection between Chevaline and Chablais, than between Chevaline and the murder or Xavier Baligant.

6-2-2013 at 08:40:54

@ Alex

Lars is right. This is the car in residence at the Silver Ferns estate, as it used to appear on their Website. Nice car, easy to drive, easy to park, goes like a bomb, large cargo bay that can hold a couple bicycles. But then it’s not dark gray, is it.

6-2-2013 at 08:57:45
6-2-2013 at 09:53:03

I am having a problem …

I discovered why there is a difficulty linking to this new thread from the previous one. Oddly, the word Chevaline in the link was given as Chevanline, and of course as such a link did not exist some of you were unable to get to us. Stubbornly, admin refuses to allow me to change Chevanline to Chevaline.

Gremlins are playing up … I wonder who fed them water last night?

I also tried to change the heading of this current thread, to delete the name Xavier Baligant as well as that of Brett Martin, but admin would not allow me to do so either. One way of getting around this is to open yet again a new link, but I will not be able to transfer your comments to the new link, so I have to keep the heading as it is.

Yes, someone did indeed feed the Gremlins water last night.

Because of my absence of a week I’ve fallen behind with reading your comments, I am therefore somewhat in the dark about Gregory Mercier, for which I apologise. Will get to it at the end of the day.

6-2-2013 at 10:12:12


re: Lars’ SunTimes link

I do not know if any of you read the update I gave when I opened the new thread.

I wrote: So, how long will the investigation continue before it will be classified as a ‘cold case’.
In France a case remains open for as long as the examining magistrate considers it necessary. There is a requirement though: the examining magistrate must regularly have a fresh lead to justify further investigation or the State will close the case because of inactivity on the part of the judiciary. A case could thus remain open indefinitely provided there is proof of judicial activity.

OK. It was a month ago, in other words a couple of days before we reached the 8th month after the shooting, when Prosecutor Maillaud last spoke to a journalist about this case. His ‘revelation’ was about that British-registered car which had been seen in the region before and on the day of the shooting.

So, there he ‘stated’, as French law requires, that he has a ‘new lead’ and the case could and would remain open.

Now, yet again a few days before the 9th month from the shooting, here he comes again with a ‘new lead’ as reported in the SunTimes.

I was waiting for him to say something publicly again.

Yet again, Prosecutor Maillaud is manifesting that there is a fresh lead and now the case can remain open as French law requires.

As each September 5 approaches he must get his team to put their heads together to make up a ‘new lead’, and there is always an English newspaper which is going to fall for it and headline the ‘revelation’.

A few days before July 5 there will be another ‘new lead’ and another English newspaper is going to headline the ‘revelation’. Unless those smart-arse editors read this blog and will know better.

Do I sound angry? Yes, I am angry. I am angry at journalists and editors who should know better.

6-2-2013 at 10:59:20

the latest flurry of news
is generated by Channel 4 publishing the transcript of their documentary that will be on British TV on Thursday 22.00 local time

6-2-2013 at 10:59:59

@Fat Bastard

Read what I just wrote.

6-2-2013 at 11:04:13


Interesting. I have wondered why M. Maillaud suddenly starts talking about something as important for the investigation, be it american computer servers, strange cars or whatever, and then as suddenly loses all interest in the same subject. Your explanation sounds very plausible, and sort of sad.

6-2-2013 at 11:06:47


I guess the new documentary will lead to some discussions here and that we soon will fill this thread so you can start a new one without those names.

6-2-2013 at 11:08:11


Would be nice to have that transcript. 😉

6-2-2013 at 11:52:39

The Express is reiterating See_Bee’s (where are you, by the way?) point that the killer not once hitting the BMW’s bodywork makes him a “professional.”

6-2-2013 at 12:04:14

I believe See_Bee is in London for the moment. Maybe taking his afternoon tea with FB. 🙂

6-2-2013 at 12:09:27

@ Lars

You are behind the “Sunday Times” paywall – did their article
contain anything interesting?

6-2-2013 at 12:32:03

No I am not behind any paywall. I have not decided yet if I think it is worth to get that article. As I understand it contains nothing really new, I had hoped it would contain some background on the documentary, but that does not seem to be the case.

6-2-2013 at 12:56:54

The Daily Excess article is full of mistakes
they get the girls names and ages wrong
it is an un checked re-hash from other agencies
It was the daily excess reporter who arranged to meet me
and then did not show up
some milk stealing mine closing witch died that day so he was too busy even to cancel

@see bee
please come for tea
im easy to find and im at home today

6-2-2013 at 12:58:22

@ Lars

Oops, I was mistaken in my assumption, then. We’ll just have to wait for the documentary itself, I guess.

However, those revelations in the Telegraph about Phillippe Bossy are quite interesting. First, earlier media reports obviously gave him a false name, second and more importantly, they never mentioned that he was suspicious of William Brett Martin (I have just checked: there has never been any mention of that anywhere before). One wonders why: Here are several dead people inside and next to a car with UK number plates, there’s an English-speaker with blood on his hands as the only uninjured person in the place – it is a natural assumption to make that he might be the perpetrator. Yet this was never mentioned, WBM was portrayed from the very start as totally credible and indeed a hero. Who put that particular spin on the story and why?

6-2-2013 at 13:00:27

good point
once a month i do stuff to remind the press to keep up the pressure too
maybe i should visit france once a month too ?
my frame alone might remind the authorities that im not going to let it rest

6-2-2013 at 13:01:25

@ Fat Bastard

Yes, I noticed that the “Excess” article contained several glaring errors. The question is: Is the quoted “source close to the case” another journalist, the author’s cat or a police officer actually involved in the case?

6-2-2013 at 13:22:05


Probably his cat, sleeping on the case in his study. 😉

6-2-2013 at 13:26:36

C4 doc
well lets watch the documentary
i have not seen it
but apparently
“The programme features an exclusive interview with a close friend of the Al-Hilli family and his extraordinary email exchange with his friend Saad Al-Hilli. “

6-2-2013 at 13:28:35


I don’t believe we can blame the reporters for PD’s false name. The name comes from Le Parisien, the only newspaper that is known to have spoken to the man.

I have for a very long time doubted that his name is Philippe Didierjean, and written so above. I also have some doubts that his name is Philippe Bossy, but perhaps we will know when the documentary has been broadcasted.

6-2-2013 at 13:30:59


I hope we will not only see that Philippe Bossy but also that mysterious friend live in that documentary. 😉

6-2-2013 at 14:36:35

Daily Express’s article is not an article. It’s a rehash of old news, and as Fat Bastard said they’ve even got the girl’s names wrong. It is this kind of thing that gives journalism a bad name.

6-2-2013 at 14:37:07

Can someone please tell me where in the UK Brett Martin lives? Thanks.

6-2-2013 at 14:38:44

@Peter re: See_Bee on Killer’s ‘professionalism’.

That Express journalist has obviously put his eye over this blog.

6-2-2013 at 14:39:22


re:new thread and new heading.

Will be so, Lars.

6-2-2013 at 14:43:04

Google Channel 4 and you will come to the announcement on the June 6 doc.

6-2-2013 at 14:52:20

@Marilyn, WBM lives in Brighton, not difficult to find and on Google Street View, an unexceptional street.

Thanks for the thoughts, I’m feeling better today, still very tired.

Will watch Channel 4 on Thursday, at least this keeps us all going forward in our own little investigation.

6-2-2013 at 14:52:37
6-2-2013 at 15:12:44

Hmmm …
If that guy
is the same as this
we have yet another cycling fanatic thrown into the mix. SAH, SM, WBM as the first witness at the scene, and now possibly Mr Bossy as the second witness at the scene – all passionate about cycling. I don’t think that there are any salient conclusions to be drawn from this, but it is a remarkable coincidence.

6-2-2013 at 15:21:52

I will email each of you privately to tell you why I need BM’s address.


Good to know you are on the bend. And to have you back commenting. Channel 4 is not on my Cable, so I am going to depend on you to be our reporter.

6-2-2013 at 16:42:43

@Lynda & Marilyn

I noticed long ago that Brett-Martin has a much more humble abode in Brighton, England than he has in Lathuile.

Could be because of the house prices of course. Perhaps he intended to withdraw to Lathuile as he gets older.

6-2-2013 at 17:02:22


About 650k Euros ……..

It’s Brighton …….purchased in 1997, for a quarter of that !

I suspect Lathuile was an investment, holiday home and future retirement abode, what we don’t know is the amount of money WBM was actually earning from his consultancy work, or do we ?

6-2-2013 at 17:09:34

@FB, looking forward to seeing you in action !

“This programme goes behind the headlines and puts the speculation to the test.

It features the only interview with the hiker who saw the crime scene and helped raise the alarm. A French journalist reveals that he has had sight of a confidential police report about the forensics of the crime scene.

The programme features an exclusive interview with a close friend of the Al-Hilli family and his extraordinary email exchange with his friend Saad Al-Hilli. And Dario Zanni, the Swiss prosecutor, is interviewed for the first time about the case.”

6-2-2013 at 17:26:02


Brett-Martin’s earning: Having worked with (technical) consultancy work for the aircraft industry myself I can tell you it is very, very well paid. 🙂

His abode: 650 k Euros! There is certainly a bubble in the British house market. I wouldn’t want to live in that house even if I got it for 100 kEuros.

Though his Lathuile house I wouldn’t mind to own.

6-2-2013 at 17:33:50

@ Peter

Regarding BM, that address may well be only a mailbox to the Company. He’d be a real fool otherwise. And I can’t quite figure him living there.
Regarding Didierjean-Bossy, same applies. With this nuance that, if the new name is certified in the Ch 4 documentary, it will imply a deliberate effort to lead people astray: in France at least, the rule of thumb is, whenever someone talks on the record but doesn’t wish to be identified, to quote him under an alias with the mention “name has been changed”. Happens all the time.

6-2-2013 at 18:01:24

re:Channel 4

I see FB left a comment on the Channel 4 site. I’ve also done so now.

6-2-2013 at 18:37:55

hiker in french is : randonneur
if u write philippe bossy randonneur in google u will find a link to a pdf

6-2-2013 at 18:57:39

@Lars, nature of consultancy work, is you may not be in work all the time, WBM was in France doing DIY, Saad was also without a contract, FB said as much a while ago.

As for the property prices, it was purchased in 1997 for just under £150k.

At the beginning it was said that he and his wife were being doorstepped by the press, which is what encouraged him to speak out, because they had his name etc. he wanted the practice to stop, lets be honest, we may have heard and seen his name many, many times since, but nothing further directly in the media.

On the electoral roll in 2002…. @ Eugene, not a fool at all, he has a registered address in Exhibition Road, London, that effectively is the post office box, his home address is exactly that, no doubt with an office in the spare room or garage, completely normal for people who are home owners and self-employed.

6-2-2013 at 20:05:51

@Lynda Re: being a consultant

Of course you are right, not working during periods is quiet natural for a consultant. But it is also a question of how much you value money and spare time respectively. You could hunt new assignments constantly and take every chance there is, or you can be more choosy. Being myself a child of the sixties I tend to value my spare time more and being able to work on my own small projects.

The last few years have however been a hard time for many consultants, but that’s life.

I am very curious why Marilyn needs BM’s address.

I have also only seen that address in Brighton, but of course you can never be sure. He is however probably reachable on that address anyhow, or you can use his E-mail address

6-2-2013 at 20:18:51

Hmm, just come think about it, Brett-Martin a consultant?

I can’t see that he has been doing any work in the Silver Fern company. The figures doesn’t show any income from consultancy work.
Has he not been working the last few years or has he another company for his consultancy work?

6-2-2013 at 20:27:47

@Eugene Re: “name has been changed”

It would be kind of funny if this man will give new interviews, but every time using a new name, and a sign is showed “name has been changed”.

Could be interpreted in different ways. 🙂

6-2-2013 at 21:37:26


You’re new, aren’t you? Well, welcome. What else can you tell us?

6-2-2013 at 21:38:04


re: Froggy’s link.

Do please all of you look at Froggy’s link.

6-2-2013 at 21:38:16

@Peter 6-2-2013 at 14:52:37

The coincidences (probability) is a field of mathematics that I do not dominate. But I am always amazed by the effects. What is the probability of winning the lotto?
What is the probability of finding a clear gray BMW X5 in front of the house of BM?

Euromillion = 1:116 531 800
BMW X5 = 1:1

I tell you, me and mathematics, we do not go well together.

Google maps.

Try 3D

6-2-2013 at 22:01:01

Regarding William Brett Martin’s Audi Q5:

Hell, it is dark grey, isn’t it?

Regarding no bullet holes in the body work of the BMW:

That’s what I always said (along with See_Bee, of course)!

Though I still don’t the a professional killer’s work here.


6-2-2013 at 22:09:03


Welcome to the Club of Mathematical Ploucs. I still have not worked out what one gets if one adds 1 to 1.

That car parked in BM’s driveway was an Audi.


No bullet holes in the car’s bodywork. So what conclusion do we come to? Killer could handle a gun …

6-2-2013 at 22:10:59


Thanks! Since he is going to hike on the 7 July in Les Bauges he seems to be the right guy. Perhaps we should join him. This Philippe Bossy lives in Crachier, AGENCEMENT DÉCORATION, POSE MOBILIER MENUISERIE

6-2-2013 at 22:40:33

@ Marilyn

Come on. Don’t pretend. If you add 1 to 1, you get 11. Even a first-grader knows that.

@ Alex

Of course, the Audi Q5 in Lathuile is gray. Guess the Gendarmes must have known about it since day 1.

@ Bacchus

You must talking about the BMW in Brighton, right? Pictured July ’12. It is gray also, but I think it’s the small sedan, not the X5. Close enough though.

@ All

I’m telling you. All these bicycles, all these RHD German cars, it’s got be a cult.

6-2-2013 at 22:55:07

@Peter, All

Re Peter 6-2-2013 at 12:58:22

Yup, I was just yesterday thinking about that (again)

BM as X

(I just realize) there is a curious letter coincidence;)

The are looking for ‘a BMW X5’

a BMW X5
BMW a X5
WBM a X5
WBM as X


– M

6-2-2013 at 23:55:18

@Marilyn 6-2-2013 at 22:09:03

I know recognize an Audi Q3/Q5 of a BWM X3/X5

In probability 1:1 = 1 (certainty)

but you’re right about plouc.

@Eugene 6-2-2013 at 22:40:33

“You must talking about the BMW in Brighton, right? Pictured July ’12. It is gray also, but I think it’s the small sedan, not the X5. Close enough though. “


If is not a X5, this is a X3. Who can know the diference between a X5 and a X3 in Chevaline ?

I say at 05-28-2013 00:09:29

“I would not be surprised to see tomorrow a new cloud of smoke from the investigation. “

The cloud was come. Worse, we entered in the dark side.

6-3-2013 at 00:13:25

To finish this nice sunny Sunday and relax someone a little tense, I put this link:

It’s a mystery to me … the game commences
for the usual fee … plus expenses
confidential information … it’s in a diary
This is my investigation … it’s not a public inquary

I go checking out the reports … digging up the dirt
you get to meet all sorts in this line of work
treachery and treason … there’s always an excuse for it
and when I find the reason I still can’t get used to it

And what have you got at the end of the day?
what have you got to take away?
a bottle of whisky and a new set of lies
blinds on the windows and a pain behind the eyes

Scarred for life … nocompensation
private investigations

6-3-2013 at 10:09:08
6-3-2013 at 10:17:08

@Peter and @All

Peter, thanks for the links.

BM’s has aged judging by the pic of him.

Surely, speaking of a ‘hiker’ there must have been someone else there beside BM and Philippe D and the two women. Philippe D was in a car — therefore he was not a hiker. Or do I have something very wrong here?

Will now be quiet until tonight: got a novel to write.

6-3-2013 at 10:26:04

@Peter & Marilyn

It is funny that noone of these journalists react to the fact that the man has changed his name from Didierjean to Bossy. Shows how well informed they are.

I believe he was called hiker (randonneur) since he said he was going hiking. So please Marilyn, don’t put another hiker at the scene, we already have an armada of motorcycles and cars there. 🙂

6-3-2013 at 10:28:05


Must be hard to write a novel in this reality. It is hard to beat this story.

6-3-2013 at 10:36:44


That is quite interesting, the Philippe Bossy stuff.

1. BM never told this before
2. PD didn’t tell it before

Why? It seems like a normal detail which simply could have been told

3. Why would PB think of BM as X? ‘Just’ the UK/licence plate connection? Or was BM behaving a bit weird and PB picked this up unconsiously?

4. The PD phonecall? Was it before or AFTER BM/PB went checking the scene. If AFTER, then this ‘fight’ would have taken some time (say 1 minute) which tightens the timeline

I would like to re-insert one detail. The statements of BM:

BM states he saw SM (or SM passed him … unclear which), and BM states he did NOT see AH’s BMW … BM states this but there is NO verification of this, because nobody saw BM. The point is, with these statements BM places himself far from Martinet at the moment of the killing (around 15.30+) … But again, there is no way to verify this.

What about the 4×4 and MC, BM saw. Do they exist? Did they come forward? And if so, did they see BM?

Well … If nobody can verify the BM statements, he could in principle be at Martinet at the killing time. And thus he could be X.

(sure, the gun and the powder … but the gun could be hidden, and the powder? perhaps protection and wash in the river??)

– M

6-3-2013 at 10:47:02

I also saw this link at MZT and as you may remember I have previously considered that SAH might have been up at martinet to view a property possibly the coal house ,SM has a relative in property near the campsite so I thought possibly he was helping out with a viewing ,that was what I was thinking originally but the new Mr Bossy is interesting so I will add this into the mix.

6-3-2013 at 10:59:37

I am sorry Marilyn I was intending to post to Craigs and had both windows open so posted to the wrong one and hello to you all thanks for the great blog you have created, I do not have the time to post on the two blogs I am following you all though and constantly refining my thoughts.

6-3-2013 at 11:06:59

@Max & Peter

I actually think that Didierjean/Bossy’s reaction is the best part of this new story. I think I had reacted the same way if some English speaking guy, with blood on his hands, being very nervous and speaking gibberish, showed me an English car with a number of dead people in it. I would instantly suspect him.

However it probably hurted Brett-Martin’s pride quite a bit to be suspected as murderer.

6-3-2013 at 11:11:20

@Lars, Froggys pdf, looked at it, Philippe Bossy is organising a sunset/sunrise bivouac on the 28th June in Les Bauges.

If this is our PD, then was that ALL that was happening on the 5th September ?

There will be some sort of conclusion to this case, maybe no arrests, but a concluding statement before The Tour de France passes through Annecy and the region, cynical, very much so.

6-3-2013 at 11:20:16

@ Max
This unrelated story
led me to think about the river Ire as the possible hiding place for the gun. Judging from the sound on Alex’ video alone, it is clear that the stretch near the Martinet is a very fast-flowing one, and it is also clear from the video that the river is within easy throwing distance from the Martinet. Police will certainly have searched the river for the gun (and the two spare magazines), but it would be easy to miss such items in a fast-flowing stream. After all, one can neither dredge the stream (the river bed is too irregular for that, with too many rocks and branches) nor dive it (too shallow and too fast-flowing). Moreover, because this particular spot is within easy throwing distance from the Martinet – and I notice that there are no refuse bins on the Martinet – the river bed is probably full of junk anwyay. In my opinion, it is therefore *possible* that the gun could still be there.

6-3-2013 at 11:40:11

C’mon, guys (and dolls), would you punch a guy with bloody hands on a quadruple homicide scene in the stomach?

As for me, I’d rather run away.


6-3-2013 at 11:46:13


*IF* the gun would be found near Martinet (in say 2 minutes walking distance) then it surely would not look good for BM.

If I were X, I would NOT have thrown the gun in the river, but I would have buried it or hidden it carefully (as to never be found again). Which would be a tricky thing to do in such a short time.

The problem of course would be that this gun would not move, and would always be there as a silent witness to the murder. Perhaps not with fingerprints, but nevertheless telling a story. Because the only one who would have needed to get rid of the gun at that specific location is a person who would know/realize he could not leave Martinet unseen (e.g. MC did get away, and could have get rid of the gun anywhere)

– M

6-3-2013 at 12:06:10

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins 6-2-2013 at 18:01:24

re:Channel 4

I see FB left a comment on the Channel 4 site. I’ve also done so now.

If you did, they’ve deleted it now!

BTW, I think your comments about the judicial process in France are important, so I took the liberty of posting them over at CM. Hope you won’t mind.

6-3-2013 at 12:23:38
6-3-2013 at 12:24:02

@ Max

The pros and cons of throwing the gun in the river are debatable. The cons are clear: If it were to be found, the serial numbers might lead back to X, or at least to the person who X got it from. Pros: A fast-flowing river will reliably wash away all forensic trace evidence over time. Within hours, at most days, all blood, skin flakes, hairs etc. will have gone; within months, the gun’s serial numbers will have rusted away, too. Moreover, police did initiate a manhunt in the entire area right away, and a smart offender would have anticipated that move. Being caught with the gun on his person anywhere within a 20-km-radius of the scene of the crime would have been all the evidence needed for an immediate arrest. Anything else, such as gunshot residue on his hands or blood spatters on his clothing, X could have either avoided in the first place or explained away. Having the gun on his person is just about the only thing that he couldn’t have explained away. All in all, therefore, getting rid of the gun asap strikes me as a smart idea.

The best alternative to throwing the gun in the river (where X couldn’t possibly retrieve it later and where the police might retrieve it at some point) would have been a temporary cache. Why hide it *forever*? It would suffice to hide it such that the police couldn’t find it during their initial search. After that was over, X could have come back and retrieved it – it is safer that way, and X probably also cherishes it as a souvenir.

Even if X was on the motorcycle and got away unseen, the smart move would have been for him to hide the gun somewhere along the way, certainly not for him to take it home with him right away. He could not have been certain that nobody had seen him and, again, possession of the gun would have been the only thing that he could not have explained away. Later, after the storm had blown over, he would have wanted to retrieve it and hide it somewhere closer to home.

6-3-2013 at 12:24:28


re: writing novel

No, It is nice. I can switch off from all the death and destruction which I’ve been writing of until now. Love story.

6-3-2013 at 12:25:23


No problem.

6-3-2013 at 12:25:56

@Lars and @Alex

re: blood on his hands.

The two of you gave me a laugh now.

6-3-2013 at 12:28:31


They probably did not pass it. I wrote that they ought to read to blogs for information.

Be my guest re the judicial process.

6-3-2013 at 12:31:53

@ All

In the initial reports, the “hiker” was first known as Philippe D. (for Didierjean). Now it’s been changed to Philippe Bossy. The latter may be correct, but raises the question of why there had formerly been an agreement to refer to him under an alias and to later drop this and mention his real name. Intriguing also the fact that the same initial reports were specifying his conversation with Bill Brett was difficult since the Englishman spoke in broken French, but we’re now being told that, as the situation got at one point close to a fight, Brett shouted in English: “It’s not me, it’s not me!” If he assumed Didierjean/Bossy didn’t speak English, I’m ready to think his broken French was good enough to come up with “C’est pas moi, c’est pas moi”. Lost in unnecessary translation? Or just a bad script?

About the much looked-for gray RHD SUV. Thanks to those of us who posted easy-to-find pictures of two good candidates, one an Audi Q and the other a BMW X, shouldn’t we think that the recent appeal to witnesses wasn’t meant to be in search of a car, but rather to get evidence that that car was being driven in the area at a certain time? Cause Inspector Clouseau has no real need of new “leads” if he’s only trying to keep the case open, he’s got ten years. But he certainly needs probable cause if he has in mind to indict (mettre en examen) anyone he may consider a suspect. That could possibly explain.

6-3-2013 at 12:53:56


If I were X = MC I probably would have carried the gun away from Martinet and dumped it into Lake Annecy

If I were X = BM I probably would have had no other choice as to HIDE the gun near Martinet, in a very good place (whether or not with the idea to retrieve/dispose it later I dunno)

If BM = X, BM got at minimum 10+ minute to ‘arrange’ stuff. And sure enough he did (re)arrange stuff. Bodies, Engines, Windows

Anyway, NOBODY saw BM, and the first one who DID see BM had as first (delayed) reaction that BM might be X

It would be nice if Mr Bossy would visit this blog (just like FB), for ‘open’ questioning.

– M

6-3-2013 at 13:00:23


As far as I know, all French media refer to him as Philippe or Philippe D. (until now), maybe due to legal reasons. The name was first published by Le Parisien. They spoke to the man at one of the crime reconstructions, possibly with one journalist writing for Le Dauphine present. All other media quoted or just copied the Le Parisien story.

The Le Parisien journalist (?) leaked the name to the British press and said that his name was Philippe Didierjean. The British media then published his full name, which now may be shown to be false.

6-3-2013 at 13:04:23

If I had the possibilty to hide the gun in peace I would do so in the woods on the mountain side. Would be almost impossible to find, and easy to fetch later unseen.

If that wasn’t possible throw it in the Ire.

6-3-2013 at 13:07:21


If I believed that the man was armed, and I see the steep mountain sides (in your video) around me, I might be desperate enough to try to overpower the man. What else could one do?

6-3-2013 at 13:12:47


We have to wait for the documentary.

If the man will be shown in a dark room with a paper bag over his head, I will doubt that his name really is Bossy. Otherwise I hope he will explain why he used a false name.

Maybe he has done, as we have done, googled for a suitable name.

6-3-2013 at 14:41:29

Your Comments I have not contributed to your site before though I have followed the case closely since the beginning and posted on the Craig Murray site on the subject. The Bossy revelations from the Swiss prosecutor are a new twist with multiple ramifications that I have discussed over there. However in response to discussion above on the likely culpability of WBM I thought your contributors might like to see this one that I posted recently.

“On the face of it WBM must be a chief suspect for several classical reasons: he was one of the last to see one of the victims (SM) alive; he was incontrovertibly on-scene at or about the time the murders took place; he was by his own admission first on-scene following the events; he interfered with the crime scene, moving bodies without need; he moved a dead body and checked his pockets, rearranging the body, without apparent justification; he altered his account, or it was altered by others, as to significant details in relation to timing, what he saw and what he did; there are unbelievable elements to his emotional and practical responses given his background and training; he contradicted the official French account of his actions; his reported emotional panic stricken state when first meeting PD; the fact that he was apparently prepared to abandon a badly injured child; the fact that his cycle ride afterwards might be construed as an attempt to escape the scene; a subsequent (ammended) report by PD that his hands were covered in blood; the co-incidences related to being in the same cycling club and in a remote location with SM, a victim; a conflict of evidence that he was wearing gloves; his hasty return to the UK.
However despite ALL of this conventional circumstantial evidence, I personally do not believe he was instrumental in the murder or complicit in it, though I do believe he was there for a purpose and most likely acting for the British Government. I believe that on the basis of the adage “that if you need to lie, make sure it is as close to the facts as possible” is one that shaped what was clearly a drafted and cleared story line before the BBC/Sky televised interview.
What leads me to believe that he was taken by surprise by the turn of events and was not party to them but to some other is his background. He was ideal recruitment material for observing, reporting, facilitating, mediating, liaising but NOT killing. Insofar as Britain has these people, they tend to be drawn from combat forces (paras/marines etc.) not retired RAF pilots. His age: too old though still very fit and strong, I don’t think he was there in a bodyguard role. Timing: it appears to put him at the scene immediately AFTER the killings. Weapon: if he was the shooter you have to explain how he carried the semi automatic and magazines and perhaps more importantly what he did with them afterwards and why he made no attempt to clear up after him. Transport: would an assassin choose a push bike in those circumstances? Surely not. Behaviour, although strange in some respects, a killer does not waste time tending to the injured (if he did) or returning with a stranger. And had he done the killing would he have stopped when he met PD’s car and pleaded with him to call the police (if he did)? More likely he would have kept going and used the time delay and poor mobile reception to get clear of the scene.
However the actions, or lack of them, by both killers and French police is instructive. Clearly the assassins had no scruples or compunction about killing and/or injuring men women and children in a most deliberate merciless fashion. Do you really think they would allowed a witness to arrive on scene so soon after, potentially putting the whole operation at risk, for the sake of one more death? Not for one moment. I am convinced WBM survived not by chance but because he was protected. The assassins knew who he was and who he worked for and he was positively OFF-TARGET by instruction. This means that British and Swedish citizens of Iraqi descent could be “neutralised” but not NZ/UK person in Government employ. This has consequences as to likely assailants.
Then there are his actions on scene, which although not implicating him in the murders, implicates him in the operation, whatever it was. No unconnected bystander would move a dead body, rearrange it and check pockets!
Then finally there is the reaction of the French Police, immediately turning him into the hero of the hour before they could have made a proper assessment and in spite of all the factors listed above that superficially, point to his guilt. Then they lied about him phoning in to the emergency services, and although later changing the story, never explaining how such a fundamental mistake could have been made. Then promoting a timeline that still could not be true. Then there was the way WBM was treated subsequently which in the context of the killing was highly unusual. You might have expected both PD and WBM to have been immediately detained as witnesses at the very least, and their co-operation sought as to fingerprints and DNA for exclusion purposes at least. Seizure of their mobile phones items of contaminated clothing etc. and a protracted interview. It is not at all clear what happened although it seems WBM went home first before attending the police station! Then as he was allowed almost immediately to return to the UK out of the French jurisdiction and prior to a “reconstruction” on the following Sunday fore which he had to come all the way back again. Clear suggestive evidence of special treatment and UK backing.”

6-3-2013 at 14:45:23

Your Comments. And this one on “Philippe Bossy”:

“The Philippe Bossy/Didierjean issue raises a number of logical questions:
1. Are they in fact the same person or different people?
2. If the former, which is the reliable one?
3. If “Philippe Bossy” is the true appellation, why did the French lie?
4. If the latter it means we have another person on scene never previously revealed.
5. Bossy is referred to as a “hiker”. No mention of car you notice or two female friends for that matter, although silence cannot be definitive.
6. “Alerted by another passer by” is strangely worded. “Another passer by” gives a very different impression to a frantic cyclist meeting a car head on several hundred yards from the scene doesn’t it? Rather it suggest both passed by before meeting in my mind – a very different scenario.
7. Then for the first time we have the suggestion that “Bossy” immediately suspected Martin to be the killer but physically attacked him or got close to it. How would that fit the previous story, as it was said they met before Didierjean could have got an impression of what had happened at that stage an it is inconceivable that by the time they had returned Didierjean/Bossy would have considered attacking Martin surely?
8. So is the Didierjean story a COMPLETE FABRICATION or is it still substantially correct, but just a different name/alias? Or do we have a completely different character on scene not previously mentioned.
9. Given the parlous shambolic nature of the French investigation so far, this is another nail in the coffin of Gendarme competence. Even so, they should be asked by the media asap what the ell is going on?”

6-3-2013 at 17:28:51

@TimV and @All

I think Philippe Bossy and Philippe Didierjean are two separate people. As TimV said, why no mention of the two women Philippe Didierjean had in his car. Also, who would describe a man in a car as a ‘hiker’?Does not make sense. However, we will have to wait until Thursday when those who will be able to watch Channel 4 can enlighten us. I, here in France, can’t. Lynda says she will be able to watch it.

6-3-2013 at 17:36:40


re: Philippe Bossy

There is a Philippe Bossy at His photo is in the top line. He is a fireman. Can it be that whoever had initially reported the Channel 4 doc had got it wrong? That the Philippe Bossy the network interviewed is one of the firemen (pompiers) called to the crime scene and that when he saw BM he thought he was the killer and wanted to clobber him? Philippe is a fairly common name in France.

6-3-2013 at 18:27:42

@Tim V

I agree with a lot you say, especially concerning Brett-Martin. I have noticed the things that you point out also as being strange.

In my experience (though not British) a lot of people recruited to the military secret service, comes from the Air Force, mainly old fighter pilots. It is practical since they, with their background, are familiar with the basic facts and how to treat military secrets.

That could also explain his presenting himself as an old RAF man, something that lies some twenty years back. You know, state your rank and number, nothing more.

6-3-2013 at 18:33:37


I wonder if this Bossy is just a hoax from a journalist or Monsieur Philippe himself.


They could have broadcasted that documentary on Wednesday (the 5th), 9 months.

Wonder if it is Loulou’s birthday?

6-3-2013 at 19:35:52

I cannot recall that it was stated that WBM was the one to go through SM’s pockets, I believe we have been told that his pockets had been searched, that’s all.

Moving people, I think anyone who had an ounce of courage to deal with the scene would do what they could to save a life. Others may have just screamed and run away, depends on the individual.

@Lars, the lads first birthday must be about now.

‘Philippe D, 41, Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné’, Philippe Bossy just can’t be a second man, too many similarities, whether he is the Bossy that Froggy and Lars have pointed to not sure as he isn’t a Savoyard, the address is in Isere.

@Marilyn, I think describing him and his friends as hikers is correct as that was their intended activity that afternoon, it always stated that they arrived by car to the parking, there are so many links that give Martinet as the starting point they are too numerous to list.

There are two P Bossy listed in Annecy, maybe one and the same.

6-3-2013 at 20:20:01

If Froggy’s Philippe Bossy is the correct one (and I believe he is) then he is a carpenter and interior designer from Crachier.

The phone number given for PB in Froggy’s link matches this one here

Given the scant information that is out there and the attitude of the French legal system towards privacy and anonymity I have no problem with PB and PD being the same person. So much seems to be getting lost in translation or due to cultural difference.

6-3-2013 at 21:07:02

@ All

Less than a year before the Chevaline killings, Gaddafi had been tracked down and killed in Libya. Dead men don’t speak. No reason to suspect there’s any direct link between the two stories.

Except one thing: It is common knowledge that French and British Secret Services played an active part in various episodes of the Libyan revolution, including the act of closure. Such cooperation, which often is a game of give-and-take, must have had certain lasting effects. It wouldn’t be surprising if in the aftermath French Services in particular owed a payoff to their British counterparts: Quid pro quo, kick-back, the French adage being “renvoyer l’ascenseur”.

I think this could explain a lot.

6-3-2013 at 21:13:31

I hope you don’t forget about Noel and Gregory Mercier in this Bossy hullabaloo.

6-3-2013 at 21:26:30

@ Marilyn

Did you know the French technical forensics team that was selected to inspect Saad’s BMW is the same team as the one that..
performed the same job on Diana and Dodi’s Mercedes?
Small world.

6-3-2013 at 21:38:51


re:Technical forensics team.

How do you know this, Eugene? Do you have a link to the info? I presume it would not be the same people anymore because Diana and Dodi died in 1997 – 15 years ago. I know that some of the Quay des Orfevres men who were in the investigation team have since died or retired.

6-3-2013 at 21:39:59


re: NOel and Gregory Mercier

I think they’re forgotten, Lars.

6-3-2013 at 21:40:16

@Y and Alex

…and Crachier is only 40 km from Lyon, so if Alex wants to visit a shop for interior design, it is within reach… 😉

6-3-2013 at 21:44:14

Well, I still think it is a good idea, to contact M. Noel Mercier, and hear if he is willing to share his knowledge with us. If he is not interested, I of course respect that.

6-3-2013 at 21:48:03

@ Marilyn

This has been mentioned several times in the British media.
Obviously, the “team” I mention is more a corps, based I think in Bois d’Arcy, than a specific list of people. As you say, some of them may have retired, or died, in between.
But not all of them, and the chain of command remains the same. That’s the point I was trying to make. Even though France is no longer a world power, it still has plenty of scientific police teams.

6-3-2013 at 21:56:32


OK, I see. I suppose the team does all the major forensic stuff.


I do not want to add to Monsieur Mercier’s distress.


Tomorrow is another day …

6-3-2013 at 23:29:39

@ Y:

Interior Design, haha… it *was* a homosexual murder:)


6-3-2013 at 23:34:37

@Lars Lars 6-3-2013 at 21:13:31

Bacchus said 6-2-2013 at 23:55:18

“The cloud of smoke was come. Worse, we entered in the dark side.”

6-3-2013 at 23:46:42

@Marilyn 6-3-2013 at 21:56:32

“I do not want to add to Monsieur Mercier’s distress.”

The most great distress for the families SAH, Mollier and Mercier is the silence.

6-3-2013 at 23:56:17


I have a doubt about you. Are you “Oui” ?

Best regards

6-4-2013 at 00:15:10

@ Bacchus

Good morning. Today is a brand-new day.
No. We are not both “Oui”. No doubt about it. Oui can tell you too.

6-4-2013 at 00:29:05

Eugene 6-4-2013 at 00:15:10

Ok, sorry.

the sound of your comments seem the same. Only this.

Where is “Oui” ?

You have more luck than me. You have a day in advance, as Magellan.

Good night.

6-4-2013 at 09:07:15

No Bacchus, Eugene is Eugene and Oui is Oui. Oui?

Where is Oui, you want to know. Oui is where Oui is and where Oui is is the business of Oui. Non?


Another mysterious death here and I smell a rat. A former head of the RG – Renseignement Generaux – the intelligence service of the police – has been found dead in his flat. The maid found him on turning up for work. He was RG head for 12 years until 2004. Was a Chirac man, and fell out with Sarkozy for revealing too much about corruption (financial and political) in France. This means he was head of the RG in 1997 when Princess Diana and Dodi were murdered. This is a man I would have wanted to speak to!!

People in such positions do rather turn up dead in their flats – or in woods. One committed suicide by jumping from the 2nd floor window of his flat. Yes, second floor! Found lying dead in the cobbled courtyard below. He was in his early 40s, unmarried. A OO7.

Vive la France.

6-4-2013 at 10:34:53


Could you tell us his name? Oui?

6-4-2013 at 11:26:47

@Lars and @All

Oui, I can.

It is Yves Bertrand, 69. Flat is in the chic and expensive 8th arrondissement. Oui, of course, it will be.

6-4-2013 at 11:29:25
6-4-2013 at 11:34:14

@ Marilyn

You have beaten me to it. Anyway, for some reason, the French never seen to have grown out of those days when intelligence was the natural habitat of freakazoids, when the head of MI5 was buggered by his gardener (as this fascinating book, which I own and which is still banned in the UK) alleges
and when the founder of the Boy Scout movement claimed that one could tell (German) spies by their walk 🙂

6-4-2013 at 12:53:39

@ Whom it may concern

Yves Bertrand, RIP.
While he had committed some rather petty publishing, based on the classified files he had kept when he was head of the RG (French Homeland Security).
And as Groucho Marx used to say, ” Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend; Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read. “

6-4-2013 at 13:33:35

re: death of Yves Bertrand.

Might as well stick my head out …

The suicide I referred to was that of Thierry Imbot, spy and son of Rene Imbot, head of DGSE (external security and France’s MI6). It was in 2000. Thierry Imbot’s brother, Didier, domiciled in New York, was once my agent …

Peter, do you mean ‘bugger’ as in bugger? I would say that is rather the norm in British intelligence. Remember the Philby spy ring? (Those were the days, my friend, thought they would never end.)

I do hope you all now believe me that Princess Diana was murdered. I think I must finish the novel set in France and write that book ‘Scenario of a Death’ about Diana and Dodi’s murder despite that English publishers are telling my London agent that such a book will endanger my life and they won’t be able to offer me protection. And despite that Zac Martin warned me too that I will be bumped off.

6-4-2013 at 13:48:41

@Marilyn, what a way to go ! As long as you keep the blog open so we can debate your demise for all eternity.

And of course Eric Maillaud is the prosectutor, having been promoted to a position in Paris.

6-4-2013 at 14:21:08

@Marilyn & Peter

Thanks for all the info concerning YB!

6-4-2013 at 15:05:50

I speak a bit of french
can i be a spy

where do i send my C.V ?

6-4-2013 at 16:20:45

just got Saads old bike out of the shed
and im fixing it up
might go for a ride and see if anyone follows me 🙂

6-4-2013 at 16:29:09

was just clearing my garage and remebered how Saad used to do it 🙂

61362 WANTED: A twin child trailer (KT10)
(Last sent on Monday 11th of June. Sent again as still looking) Hi Does any one out there have a bicycle child trailer which fits two children that they don’t want or have no use for anymore. can collect any evening. regards saad saadhilli
Jun 26, 2012
7:20 pm
60966 WANTED: A twin child trailer (KT10)
(Last sent on Wednesday 30th of May. Sent again as still looking) Hi Does any one out there have a bicycle child trailer which fits two children that they don’t want or have no use for anymore. can collect any evening. regards saad saadhilli
Jun 11, 2012
11:22 pm
60725 Wanted – A twin child trailer – KT10
Hi Does any one out there have a bicycle child trailer which fits two children that they don’t want or have no use for anymore. can collect any evening. regards saad saadhilli
May 30, 2012
11:44 am
59036 TAKEN – Evolution MK-149 keyboard – KT10
Mar 14, 2012
1:22 pm
58994 Offer – Canon Fax-L800 lazer type KT10
Hi On offer is a canon Fax-L800 laser fax machine which works but has not been used in a while. having a clear out so it must go today or it will go to the tip tomorrow thanks saadhilli
Mar 11, 2012
5:17 pm
58993 Offer – BT Voyager 220V Router never used – KT10
Hi On offer is a BT Voyager 220V Router which has never been used. must go today or else it will be dumpped tomorrow as i am having a clear out. thanks saadhilli
Mar 11, 2012
5:17 pm
58992 Offer – a single and double Air mattresses – KT10
Hi A coupler of air mattersses going, a single and a double. they have not been uses in a long long time but have been kept in a dark dry area so should still hold air. these are heavy duty ones. must go today or eles to the dump they go tomorrow. thanks saadhilli
Mar 11, 2012
5:17 pm
58990 Offer – Evolution MK-149 keyboard – KT10
Hi On offer is a Evolution MK-149 keyboard which i was told works by another freecycler but i never had the time to try it. A couple of the keys need attention as they have come out of position. having a clear out so it must go today or it will go to the… saadhilli
Mar 11, 2012
5:17 pm
58991 Offer – HP Deskjet 500 black and white printer – KT10
Hi On offer is a hp deskjet 500 black and white printer which has not been used in a long while. I am having a clear out so it must go today or it will go to the tip tomorrow thanks saadhilli
Mar 11, 2012
5:17 pm
57099 Offered – Air Conditioning Unit – KT10 – please read
On offer is a Sharp split type air conditioning unit, this is the type that has the indoor unit on a wall inside the house at high level saving space and that is plumed to a unit outside, as you get in offices and shops. THIS IS NOT A PORTABLE UNIT BUT IS… saadhilli
Nov 13, 2011
9:55 am

6-4-2013 at 17:28:21

@FB, yes you said he was a freegle member.

What do you think of the comments on the other site ? Everything is a conspiracy and your friend was taken out by intelligence, although I haven’t figured out which – maybe it was Martians afterall.

Have you been allowed to see the final edit of Thursdays Channel 4 programme ? I hope it will be of a help to getting those girls back to their family. I suppose the house in Claygate remains locked up, is it under guard ?

I’ve been going over some old stuff about Chevaline, the BBC reported that Iqbal had an Iraqi passport, but you said she was British, maybe you meant in her attitude, I see that one of her colleagues has also spoken up about the house worries that Saad had, his name was Zaid (?). Confirming he’d changed the locks to keep his brother out.

Colonel de Tarle, like EM, has expressed that it is a long and complex case, but this was stated only a couple of weeks after the events.

I have to admit that with so many half-truths it is difficult to remain with my conviction that it was a local crime, with or without a target.

6-4-2013 at 18:53:28

not seen a transcript but im getting some reports from others
Ikbal had as far as im aware british passport
tho she may not have given up her Iraqi one
she went to school in i think Hertfordshire before her family moved to Sweedistan
I have looked at that other site ..full of er well its good for roses
be interesting to see how much slant C4 have put on the info i gave them

6-4-2013 at 19:55:26

It is often said how important it is for democracy that we have many different newspapers and other media.

I’m not so sure what is meant by that. When I have been reading news about Chevaline, almost everything seems to be copied from the same, not especially reliable, source. I make the same observation today reading about Yves Bertrand, most articles are copies, almost verbatim from some anonymous source.

So we have many newspapers, but the same content. 😉

6-4-2013 at 20:04:34

@ Fat Bastard

I have a question for you: Do you know whether or not Zaid AH has ever gone to see Zainab and Zeena at their current address?

The reason for my question is this: There has got to be *some* reason (however reasonable or unreasonable it might seem to us, or would seem to a fair-minded observer) for those extraordinarily stringent security measures imposed upon Zainab and Zeena in the aftermath of the murders. The leaked parts of the transcript of that C4 documentary suggest that the idea of an “inheritance dispute” between Saad and Zaid as a possible motive for the murders is regaining currency amongst investigators, or perhaps never lost currency amongst them.

Upon the other hand, if they suspected Zaid AH to have had a hand in arranging those murders, they could hardly allow him to see the sole two surviving witnesses. Preventing him from doing so would have posed a number of different legal problems, though, as they would have had to inform him that they viewed him as a potential suspect.

So, given that both Eric Clouseau and Dario Zanni have said that they would have liked to bang up Zaid and sweat him for a few weeks, how could they justify him having access to underage key witnesses?

6-4-2013 at 20:16:00

I have not talked to Zaid directly
but he told a friend he was not to see them
but he does get updates on their progress
only Ikbals uncle and sister have visited them .

6-4-2013 at 20:19:30

I think that the actions taken by the British authorities are “unreasonable” even if they believe that there is some family dispute behind it, or perhaps especially then. They could just forbid the brother to see the girls, and then keep a watch over *his* movements. They don’t need to put the girls in custody to do that, it would be more appropriate I think to put the brother in custody if they have anything resembling evidence.

That sort of thing is done all the time without this kind of drama.

6-4-2013 at 20:28:38

@ Fat Bastard, 6-4-2013 at 20:16:00

Thanks for the swift reply. What can one say? If it be the one thing, he deserves our pity, if it be the other …

6-4-2013 at 20:28:58

@Peter, I think FB will confirm that Zaid has seen the girls, I suspect Sean his son will have as well.

Even the Swiss Prosecutor says he’s seen many inheritance disputes, they are common in France, I could write a book about the properties left to ruin because a family can’t agree ! Idiots the lot of them.

Here is one that went to an extreme in the UK:

For the record Dario Zanni has no power in France, although he of course is entitled to his opinion, I really wouldn’t want to be Zaid Al-Hili/Zaid Hilli presently, especially if completely innocent.

All this has further pushed any enquiry away from France ……. this is going to be written off before the Tour de France arrives, the seeds are already planted.

6-4-2013 at 20:39:40

Well, well, I thought I’d read that Saads side of the family had seen the girls.

What a mess, I wonder if Zaid paid out the full fee for a botched family assassination ?

@FB, excuse my crass humour.

You admit there was a problem over the will of their father, I would say that it was most likely split between the two of them, logic. Certainly Saad had spent money on the house, could be argued that he lived there free of charge and so it would continue back and forth, whilst lawyers rub their hands with glee, money, money, money.

I see that it was Zaid who stopped the services of a solicitor, maybe he could no longer afford to continue – has anyone ever understood the income Zaid and his son commanded ?

All the while, the Mollier/Schutz/Ringot families are being left in peace, to continue with their lives and their grief.

6-4-2013 at 20:48:16

has anyone ever understood the income Zaid and his son commanded ?
what does that mean ?
Zaid is a bean counter in a golf club

6-4-2013 at 20:50:25

who is Sean ?

6-4-2013 at 20:57:18

@FB, thankyou, a bean counter in a golf club is unlikely to be able to pay someone to bump off his brother and family !

Zaids son:

6-4-2013 at 21:09:09

a bean counter in a golf club is unlikely to be able to pay someone to bump off his brother and family !

Unless he expects to come into a very sizeable inheritance this way 🙁

6-4-2013 at 21:21:01

Hi all ….sorry not been able to post (Some health issues with my Dad here in London) .
Have read in and think I am up todate with all comments.

Think it makes sense post on Friday after the C4 program and will try to post answers to any direct questions directed towards me.

Fat Bastard …am still very interested in more info with regard to that telephone call that you made to SAH’s phone, date and time would be intereting. Thanks for the T invitation, it might now be possible if you are serious, as I will now be in UK for some time (months not weeks).

6-4-2013 at 22:08:55

@Peter, I actually thought that when I tapped ‘submit comment’, you’d have to be pretty sure both ways though of a pay off, consequences could be shitty, maybe they already are.

@See Bee, London in the summer, you’ll be there for the birth of the future heir/heiress to the throne !

And we’re all still here, waiting with baited breath…..

for Channel 4 Thursday……!

6-4-2013 at 22:46:09

@ Lynda

(…) you’d have to be pretty sure both ways though of a pay off, consequences could be shitty, maybe they already are.

If Zaid AH lately owed anybody any money over anything, he could have stopped worrying about that debt since just over two months ago. Having read this
who would dare try collect a (legally-unenforceable) debt from him? Nobody.

6-4-2013 at 23:08:31

Your Comments

6-4-2013 at 23:25:32

Only last week you all still had SM as the primary target.

6-4-2013 at 23:51:16


I think in ‘solutions’ … To a problem/puzzle there can be (depending on the problem/puzzle) multiple solutions which are compatible with the facts as we know them.

Of course ‘Chevaline’ has just one UNIQUE solution. What we need are more facts. Too few facts make it impossible to find a UNIQUE solution.

If I hand you the numbers 4, 3 and 7 and ask ‘What is the answer?’
Well, you have not enough info
Now I hand you the x and the –
Still not enough, it could be 5 or -17
Now I say the answer must be positive
The it is 5 … namely 4 x 3 – 7

Of course in ‘Chevaline’ we are dealing with another X … and we simply have not enough facts. Even EM appearently has not enough facts, although he has more info then us.

Trust me, we simply have not enough facts. That is why very simple things like ‘did PB try to beat BM’ are fun and maybe important because they at least provide another fact, how little it may seem.

The whole ‘Chevaline’ case is one big weird case. And PB punching BM just ADDS to that weirdness. The whole thing is surreal … and yet, there IS one UNIQUE solution. That is what intrigues me;)

– M

6-4-2013 at 23:54:07

Lynda 5-20-2013 at 16:07:57

“Apolloqueen ?”

What is it Apolloqueen ?

6-5-2013 at 00:48:15

Max 6-4-2013 at 23:51:16

Actuellement la solution n’est pas unique.

Paul-Loup Sulitzer a écrit dans son livre le “Roi Vert”

“… il lui revint en mémoire ce que disait toujours l’héroïne d’un roman français : « À un problème, il y a toujours des tas de solutions. Et, quand il n’y a pas de solution, c’est qu’il y n’y a pas de problème. ». “

Effectivement, la solution au départ est unique. C’est la réponse de “Qui est le tueur de SM ?”
Par la suite et parce qu’il existe beaucoup de coïncidences entre les victimes, les temoins et le propre passé du tueur, nous en sommes arrivés à de mutliples solutions.

À la fin, vous avez raison, les solutions vont toutes se rejoindre dans une seule et même reponse : “pourquoi avoir tuer SM ?”.

Si nous ne trouvons pas la solution (dans 2,5,10 ans), c’est qu’il n’y a pas de problème.

6-5-2013 at 01:45:38

@Max – 6-4-2013 at 23:51:16

You write:-

“Trust me, we simply have not enough facts. –cut– The whole ‘Chevaline’ case is one big weird case. –cut– The whole thing is surreal … and yet, there IS one UNIQUE solution. That is what intrigues me;)”

Well yes, and also no. . . we have an excess of factoids that support multiple plausible scenarios, but do not help us to discriminate (in the good sense). That is what makes it surreal.

Max, I seem to remember that you are not UK based, so you may not have seen “The League of Gentlemen” It was a UK TV comedy series with quite dark, twisted humour.

The third series (I think) used as a plot device, a fatal traffic accident, which was shown in every episode in the series. Each episode led up to this incident from a different perspective, similar to Rashomon (check out the wiki article

The point I am laboriously getting to is that that although there is one UNIQUE physical solution, as you say, there may be many subjective accounts of it.

Just like in The League of Gentlemen, it may have been a chaotic ‘accident’ – wrong place – wrong time – wrong people.

6-5-2013 at 01:47:43

@see bee
yes tea invitation is still on
until i find another post 🙂

i hope after thursday the circus will not be on my doorstep

6-5-2013 at 02:10:02

just looked on the craig murray site

they are finding conspiracy in the ac unit Saad gave away !!!
FFS !!!

6-5-2013 at 02:19:38

I notice that some here, give credence to one of EM’s early theories, that the killing resulted from a family feud. From the fact that it took six months for the British to allow the French team access to his brother, it is clear, contrary to public pronouncements, there was a lack of unanimity between the two jurisdictions. Obstruction even.

This also seems to be the view of the Swiss Prosecutor (obviously made privy to details of the French investigation) in relation to the interviews of the children, for he suggests they were not allowed full rein and were interrupted whenever the children started crying, although this in itself raises questions about the children’s welfare and the style of French interrogation of two small girls.

However, besides his denials and familial bonds, I believe there is also a very strong reason to doubt Zaid being the mastermind and Maillaud’s suspicions. It is that if the intention was to obliterate the whole family and all potential beneficiaries from their fathers estate, the assassins would have been well briefed and known there were TWO daughters, and neither would have escaped.

6-5-2013 at 08:17:13




The solution is the problem; the problem is the solution. (This is Bacchus speak, Max.)

@Fat Bastard

We, on this blog, do not go to the Craig Murray blog and then we ridicule here the views of those commentators. We do not ridicule anyone here.

6-5-2013 at 08:40:45

Another Wednesday and now nine (9) months.

6-5-2013 at 08:53:47

Indeed. As Lars says 9 months. Long enough to make a human being.

6-5-2013 at 09:08:36

For the record, I in no way think Zaid had anything to do with this.

I wish they would put him in the clear, why does he have an armed guard, maybe just to keep the journos from the door or any vigilantes.

Yes, Lars – 9 months…… what a mess.

@FB, I see you don’t have a contract at present, whatever you do don’t take a spur of the moment holiday in France and get yourself killed !

@Rashomon, two other films in the same vein, ‘Crash’ and ‘Babel’, particularly the latter.

6-5-2013 at 09:19:37


I am not certain how much credence some commentators here give to that theory. I believe that we are just discussing different options. As Max says above, we simply don’t have enough facts to exclude any possibilities, so still anything is possible, however unlikely, even conspiracy theories. Money and “love” have always been strong motives behind many murders.

To me all theories can be discussed as long as we don’t outright accuse anyone for having commited a crime, be that a member of the al-Hilli family, or a member of the Mollier family (or for that matter anyone else). If we want to accuse someone we should go to the police.

Personally I think that more circumstances speak against, than for, that particular theory.

6-5-2013 at 12:18:57

My question was about eliciting what the police believe. The fact that they are not granting Zaid access to the children means that they genuinely haven’t ruled him out as a suspect. Conversely, the fact that he himself is under armed police protection could mean either of two things: perhaps they fear that the killer might pay him a visit, perhaps it is about preventing vigilante attacks on him. It certainly isn’t merely about keeping the press at bay – however nasty the British press may be, the police don’t need firearms to deal with them.

@ Fat Bastard
I reckon you should prepare for a media scrum on your own doorstep on Friday morning. If I were you, I should use that opportunity to get your message regarding the children across. Think about what you are going to say beforehand, keep it simple, keep it quotable and stay on-message. Don’t talk about anything else. They’ll need a quote from you – don’t give them anything but your message to quote you on.

6-5-2013 at 13:47:19

Peter said “Don’t talk about anything else. They’ll need a quote from you – don’t give them anything but your message to quote you on.”

@Fa Tbastard, I do agree 100 %

6-5-2013 at 13:58:22

I dont think there will be a scrum
only one journalist has found my cave
hes hard working and honest !!
I gave him a cup of tea (since he did take off his shoes )
thats why the invite to tea stands
find Fat Towers while im in you get invited in 🙂
Oh and here is a Quote for the daily fail

6-5-2013 at 14:05:34

@ All

I’m both eager to see the forthcoming Channel 4 documentary and worried that it will not provide much more reliable new pieces of information than its recent French counterpart had.
Notwithstanding the freedom of the media, they mostly rely, on both sides of the Channel, on their police sources if only to get easy access to the whereabouts of people they plan to have an interview with. This implies certain policies of compromise and “self-regulation”. Moreover, if the final editing may have been only shown to a very selective set of persons who have power to influence the final cut to be aired, if only for legal reasons all testimonies that will be broadcast from identifiable individuals must have first been received with a comprehensive pro forma disclaimer.
Insofar, people who haven’t duly agreed to such publicity by the required disclaimer shouldn’t have to worry too much about being stalked in their daily activities.
Otherwise, I understand a few websites may tomorrow provide free access to a live stream of Channel 4 outside of the UK, but it’s obviously better if someone can either later post it on YouTube or simply get a full transcript.

I’m not a regular visitor to CM’s thread about Chevaline, but even though I wonder why they apparently have planned to “close comments” next week. Fair competition is always positive I think. Or does it mean they somehow assume this case can be solved in a week time?

6-5-2013 at 14:48:23

@FB, did Saad get the aircon unit through Freegle in the first place ?

@Eugene, the CM close comments happens regularly. I read in once in a while just to see what wild goose chase they are on now ……

I’m going to repeat, there will be a lull if not a classification of this case before the Tour de France passes through.

Saads Iraqi roots will be blamed, which will be a load of testicles.

@TimV – the Swiss Prosecutor can chirp all he likes, his only jurisdiction is in Sweden and the proof he requires to establish who actually is entitled to the money, beyond that he’s pissing in the wind.

6-5-2013 at 15:14:29

@Lynda I hope you mean Switzerland. 🙂

6-5-2013 at 16:08:43


I must say I share your worries that the documentary will prove to be such a disappointment (again). 🙁

6-5-2013 at 16:09:25

@Lars, ha ha, silly, silly me! It’s the sun, does funny things to the brain !

6-5-2013 at 16:35:28

6-5-2013 at 14:05:34

Ooops, that happened by itself! Sorry.

The close comments on CM is nothing to worry about. It’s the way the site is formatted. The comments will close automatically on the date stated if nothing else is posted to the thread.

Keep on posting and the thread will remain open.

Hope that clarifies it for you.

In the meantime has anybody posted anything to the Channel 4 website and got it published, or are all the meaningful comments disappearing into a black hole?

6-5-2013 at 18:04:26

RE ac unit
not sure where he got it ..but either free or cheep
it took two of us to winch it out of the shed roof space
when we put up the insulation
it was going to then go in the stair well of the main house
but the plumbing in would have cost hundreds of£ just in materials
so Saad gave it up

6-5-2013 at 18:40:54

I don’t expect the C4 documentary to solve the riddle of the Chevaline murders, and I don’t expect many fresh insights. However, I do hope that Dario Zanni (who enjoys a very good reputation in his particular field) may shed some light on the origins of the money in Kadhim AH’s Swiss bank account – beyond stating that it isn’t Saddam Hussein’s money. Zanni must know exactly who paid the money into that account, when and how. If he reveals that information, I shall be a happy man 😉

6-5-2013 at 19:49:50

bank accounts

could everyone on this blog state how much is in each of their late parents bank accounts and where it was from ..


6-5-2013 at 20:28:43

@FB, my mother is dead, Dad still kicking about, he sends me the current state of his investments every month, I’m executor of his will and a beneficiary, obviously not a witness.

My brother and I inherited a certain amount of money and a quarter of the house each when she died, it would have been the same if Dad went first.

We all should make a will and make known what is in it long before the matter arises, then everyone knows the score.

If there is anything of real value then I would recommend a solicitor, notaire in France to deal with the legalities. Dying ‘intestate’ is the worst thing you can do for your family.

The time to make a will is when you are fit and healthy and then forget about it.

@ Peter, have you noticed that the money in the Swiss Bank has reduced to £680K, early reports were millions, talk about the press WANTING a story to be true !

6-5-2013 at 20:34:35

Both parents dead. I know of course how much money there was, at least the money we could find, because I still have the papers.

I have no idea where it all came from and don’t really want to know.

6-5-2013 at 20:44:27

@ All

Speaking of money.
Everybody loves Haute-Savoie, everybody needs Haute-Savoie.

Gaddafi’s former Chief of finances, Mr Bachir Saleh, whose current residence is undisclosed, officially left French territory on May 3, 2012 by private jet, just a few days ahead of Sarkozy’s dismissal (a gut president).
It’s interesting to note that his love nest and former residence was a cute mansion located in the small chic community of Prévessin-Moëns, hardly 30 miles away from Annecy.
Way to go.

6-5-2013 at 20:50:40


I guess that being so close to Geneva and Switzerland, and for Prévessin-Moëns being so close to an airport, makes it an interesting place for all types of characters.

6-5-2013 at 20:59:46

@ Lars

Exactly. You nailed it. Can apply to some of the people connected with the Chevaline story.

6-5-2013 at 21:27:38

Eugene wote:
“… I’m not a regular visitor to CM’s thread about Chevaline, but even though I wonder why they apparently have planned to “close comments” next week. Fair competition is always positive I think. Or does it mean they somehow assume this case can be solved in a week time?”

That is just the way Craig Murray’s forum works – all threads are the same, if no activity for a week the thread auto-closes, so that date is a rolling date. Most threads on Craig’s blog tend to be political and short lived.

6-5-2013 at 22:37:54

@ Lynda, 6-5-2013 at 20:28:43

I am not aware of any earlier media reports mentioning millions being deposited in that account. The one figure that I have seen consistently quoted is just below € 1 million, enough to get Kadhim comfortably through that bank’s door, yet not enough to earn him any special attention from all those pesky compliance types or from bonus-driven client advisors. In my opinion, the varying sums in GBP given for the account’s balance are largely due to CHF-EUR-GBP exchange rate fluctuations. AFAIK, it was a Euro-denominated current account.

I am keenly interested in hearing who paid all that money into this account, how (cash? bank transfer?) and when, but I should already advise against drawing any strong conclusions from this. I know quite a few Swiss client advisors catering to the rich and very rich, and those people really do know their clients. In a (if you’ll pardon my French) shithole of a country such as Iraq under Saddam Hussein, of course the rich don’t keep most of their money at the (state-run) banks, where the Enlightened One, The Most Revered Supreme Leader, may nationalize it on a whim at any point in time. Bagfuls of cash are kept at home, in case they ever need to do a runner in a hurry. Offshore bank accounts in countries such as Switzerland are standard, regardless of the meagre rates of return that these may offer. Likewise, bribes, bungs and backhanders to people working in (theoretically state-run) national import-export businesses are the norm, because those people can facilitate getting one’s nest-eggs transferred abroad. Thus, even if it turned out that the money in Kadhim AH’s Swiss bank account had been transferred there by Iraq’s erstwhile national oil-and-dates export monopoly, that wouldn’t necessarily mean that Kadhim AH had been a favourite of Saddam’s government. It would probably mean no more than that he knew a few people there and greased some palms.

Still, I am really, really looking forward to hearing what Dario Zanni has to say on this account. Zanni is a good guy from what I hear, and anyway he is bound to prove a richer source of information than Eric Clouseau. After all, it is impossible to say less of any substance per minute of verbiage than Clouseau does.

6-5-2013 at 23:01:49

@Rashomon, Bacchus, Marilyn,

Of course I agree with all you, but, what I mean with the ‘UNIQUE solution’ is that … once we know what happened, we will go ‘Oh, but of course’

But for now, I agree, we simply have not enough facts to work on, and it is even impossible to decide on the facts as facts.

On the other hand, if there is ‘tweaking’ involved, it sometimes CAN be exposed, because the person who tweaked has to be very careful to ‘tweak’ other stuff too, because everything is inter-connected.

That is why we spend so much time on the timeline, because an ‘impossible’ timeline WILL expose that somebody was ‘tweaking’

One of the main actors of the timeline is PD, now PB. It would be very very very interesting to know EXACTLY what he did, how long it took and when/where EXACTLY he did make his 15.48 phone call.

Because PB’s statements could make it an ‘impossibility’ for an MC (as BM states) to even exist.

I think when you would do careful and deep interviews with BM, PB, CS and TS and really go for it, you would be able to expose a possible ‘tweaker’ … unfortunately we don’t have access to the files, and above persons are not showing up on this Marilyn forum … it would be so interesting if they did:)

– M

6-6-2013 at 00:52:18


Nous savons que les effets de la cause des morts de Chevaline ont favorisé certaines personnes. Mais peut-être que ces personnes ne sont impliquées dans cette affaire.

Je veux dire que le(s) tueur(s) ont aider sans le savoir un certain nombre de personnes. Par exemple l’entourage de SM, les intérêts de multinationales ou certains gouvernements (SAH).

C’est peut-être difficile à comprendre, peut-être que je m’exprime mal pour que vous puissiez me comprendre,

Chevaline est peut-être un acte fortuit qui a aidé à résoudre des problèmes dans l’entourage de SM et des intérêts stratégiques ou idéologiques en relation à SAH

C’est comme si quelqu’un trouvait par terre un vieux billet de l’euromillion. Joue les mêmes numéros du billet la semaine suivante et gagne le gros lot.

Il y a la cause et les effets de la cause. Dés le début nous travaillons sur les effets de la cause.

6-6-2013 at 01:08:11

Qui a jetté le vieux billet de l’euromillion par terre et pourquoi ?

6-6-2013 at 07:52:08

@Fat Bastard
6-5-2013 at 02:10:02

“just looked on the craig murray site

“they are finding conspiracy in the ac unit Saad gave away !!!
FFS !!!”

However, and this is a big but ..

There’s a lot more on the CM blog, including a lot of interesting research by bluebird who seems to suggest SAH came from a very well connected, high ranking Iraqi family and that his grandfather was a man of global significance.

Can you confirm or deny bb’s research?

Sorry, I don’t know if this point has been carried here on MZT before.

6-6-2013 at 08:28:21


With all due respect to the commentators on the site of Mr.Craig Murray, I say again now that we, here on this blog, do not discuss what they write. Neither do we refer to their comments or knock them. Anyone who refers to them from now will find that I have not passed the comment. If you want to discuss a comment on that site, then you do the decent and correct thing, and discuss it on that site where the commentator can reply.

6-6-2013 at 08:30:08


re: vieux billet

I wish I know …

6-6-2013 at 10:15:11

Your Comments
Good morning, can anyone tell me if this documentary is
being streamed online.
I can’t remember if I posted on this forum many months ago, but have followed the case closely.
Peter I enjoy your posts, looking forward to watching Tour du France when
it goes near Annechy.
Fingers crossed we learn something new today.

6-6-2013 at 12:16:27

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins
6-6-2013 at 08:28:21


With all due respect to the commentators on the site of Mr.Craig Murray, I say again now that we, here on this blog, do not discuss what they write. Neither do we refer to their comments or knock them. Anyone who refers to them from now will find that I have not passed the comment. If you want to discuss a comment on that site, then you do the decent and correct thing, and discuss it on that site where the commentator can reply.

Now why would you want to do that?

Cross referencing and cross verification of sources is surely a rigorous academic exercise that is totally valid!

What do you say about the genealogy of SAH?

6-6-2013 at 12:21:19

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins
6-6-2013 at 08:28:21


With all due respect to the commentators on the site of Mr.Craig Murray, I say again now that we, here on this blog, do not discuss what they write. Neither do we refer to their comments or knock them. Anyone who refers to them from now will find that I have not passed the comment. If you want to discuss a comment on that site, then you do the decent and correct thing, and discuss it on that site where the commentator can reply.

Now why would you want to do that?

There are only commentators. To suggest a “we” and “them” is ridiculous in my opinion!

6-6-2013 at 12:40:30

I’m with Marilyn on the (CM vs MZT). It is highly inefficient to have a discussion spread over 2 sites. If e.g. a CM would like to repsond to an idea I have, he/she should do it at MZT, where I did express the idea. I simply won’t be at CM to either comment and/or explain my idea.

To make the point even more clear, I have taken down my OWN thread on my own blog in favour of MZT, because I had the feeling I should stick to one site only (and not try to maintain 2, or even more sites).

MZT is a great site to express and share ideas on the ‘Chevaline case’.

Healthy competition, to see which site cracks this case first;)

– M (from the ‘Agatha’ bunch;)

6-6-2013 at 13:02:10

Max, thanks for the backing. I totally agree with you what said in your 1013/06/06 at 12.40 pm.

Mochyn, feel free to share your views with us here,but do not call a decision I make ‘ridiculous’.

6-6-2013 at 13:14:12

@max “Healthy competition, to see which site cracks this case first;)”

u are talking about respect between 2 blogs…what about the respect due to Saad, to the family…ur concept of respect is strangely random. Until now, I thought that wasn’t a game

6-6-2013 at 13:37:36

@ All @ Marilyn

This controversy is such a waste of precious time and energy.
Like the saying goes, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Eric Clouseau would say “les chats ne font pas des chiens.”
Let’s focus on real issues. Let’s hope we can learn something tonight.

6-6-2013 at 13:54:12


I totally agree with you. It is a waste of time and not of my making. Let us get back to discussing the case.

6-6-2013 at 13:58:11


You have commented before.

I’m sorry but we know as much (little) about tonight’s C4 doc as you do.

Off topic: The Tour de France. This is the 100th and promises to be a great tour. It starts on the island of Corsica and will go by Mont Saint Michel this year which should be just wonderful. I will watch on TV each day. Once I used to cycle with them on my exercise bike. All of the three weeks. Great way to lose weight. Then my exercise bike broke …

6-6-2013 at 14:15:38


What do you say about the genealogy of SAH?

well i would say he was homo sapiens
British and an engineer
and a very very good daddy

what about yourself ?
I think anyone who makes observations about saads personal matters MUST expose themselves to the same disclosures its only fair .

6-6-2013 at 14:58:35

@Marilyn, chin up old girl !

Many of us are not only dedicated to this site but addicted, as Mochyn has joined us, it would be helpful if he posted Saads geneaology and let us make up our own minds.

Are you a Mochyn Ddu ? I jest, it shouldn’t be an us and them and Marilyn is right, if we have issues with the CM sites commentators, then we should post there and they in turn here. Good debate is always worth having.

‘The sins of the fathers should not be visited on the sons’, or something like that, I’ve ancestors who were imprisoned and hung for shipwrecking, another for stealing a bolt of cloth ! Not as long ago as you might think.

6-6-2013 at 16:04:48

@Fat Bastard
6-6-2013 at 14:15:38

I don’t doubt that for a moment, which adds to the depth and poignancy of this terrible event.

I am grateful to you for responding, as my previous question, which was for you, got scrubbed, possibly accidentally, by Marilyn in her clean-up.

There has been discussion elsewhere, not by me, but by others who have an interest in ancestry and genealogy, that SAH’s family were originally very well connected Iraqis.

It is claimed his grandfather or possibly great-grandfather was a high ranking Iraqi diplomat of global standing.

I asked simply whether you could confirm or deny this? I also asked whether this claim has been mentioned here before.

As for me, Brit, Celtic fringes, ex pat. Is there anything else you need to know?

6-6-2013 at 16:45:58

For most of us the events have no personal or professional impact, we can empathise with the plight of the children and that of the Al-Hilli and Mollier family, it does make us detached. Without that detachment it is very easy to allow feelings to get in the way of trying to be objective.

From the outset, Max has viewed it as a puzzle, sudoko like, I thought at first it was a bit harsh but over the months I have understood his stand point.

In FB, we have someone who knew Saad and certain members of the family, I thank him for being candid.

In Marilyn, well, she is active on her own blog, with a comment, an observation and a telling off when we need it. It also makes it have the personal approach, I fell upon it all those months ago when wondering who was Sylvain Mollier.

I’m going to thank her for her perserverance in allowing us to continue with her continued support and knuckle rap when deserved.

I’ve set up the DVD recorder for tonights programme, I hope that Channel 4 will put it out on the internet at some point, if not, then tomorrow I’ll try to transcribe all that was said.

I know FB will be able to see it, is there anyone else on here who receives British TV ?

6-6-2013 at 20:56:48

Eugene and Mari are totally right about that the idea of two blogs fighting each other is straight bull.

But then again…”Carthage has to be destroyed”, to quote Cicero.

And so I’ll say, although not seriously, that MZT is about as three times better than Craig Murray and David Icke combined!

And by the way, I am an MZT exclusive!

MZT for life:)


6-6-2013 at 22:04:51



Anyway, the teamspirit, respect and cooperativity at MZT is of a very high degree … a lot of credits have to go to Marilyn, as she is a fantastic moderator, welcoming every newcomer and gently ‘dictating’ the rules which makes this forum a pleasure to visit and contribute!

Marilyn, well done!

– M

6-6-2013 at 23:05:12


6-6-2013 at 23:08:02

This old girl (as Lynda called me …) is happy tonight: two gorgeous guys are on my side – Max and Alexander.

Anyway, live and let die …

Right at the moment Lynda and Fat Bastard and See_Bee too perhaps are watching the Channel 4 doc. I am sure they will all report to us tomorrow and there will be lots to discuss again.

I,meanwhile, watched the first two episodes of the 2nd series of Homeland tonight. (Alex, I loved it.)

I think I will skip serial killing tonight.

Tomorrow is another day.

6-6-2013 at 23:11:06


En cherchant sur le 9 septembre 2012, j’ai trouvé ceci :

Évangile de Jésus-Christ selon saint Marc 7,31-37

Jésus quitta la région de Tyr ; passant par Sidon, il prit la direction du lac de Galilée et alla en plein territoire de la Décapole.
On lui amène un sourd-muet, et on le prie de poser la main sur lui.
Jésus l’emmena à l’écart, loin de la foule, lui mit les doigts dans les oreilles, et, prenant de la salive, lui toucha la langue.
Puis, les yeux levés au ciel, il soupira et lui dit : « Effata ! », c’est-à-dire : « Ouvre-toi ! »
Ses oreilles s’ouvrirent ; aussitôt sa langue se délia, et il parlait correctement.
Alors Jésus leur recommanda de n’en rien dire à personne ; mais plus il le leur recommandait, plus ils le proclamaient.
Très vivement frappés, ils disaient : « Tout ce qu’il fait est admirable : il fait entendre les sourds et parler les muets »

Qui sait s’il ne fera pas parler les témoins muets ?

6-6-2013 at 23:30:08

First part, synopsis of events. Philippe Bossy shown speaking, slim, with a stubbly beard.

The events are in sketches. Mollier on the floor next to passengers side of the car, head towards the rear.

Rear wheels shown spinning, child put in recovery position, rear wheels spinning, WBM saved girls life, 15 minutes later and she would be dead (EM).

PB and WBM, were there – 6 or 7 minutes before calling emergency services.

Jean Marc Ducros, journalist has had access to forensics file. Saad shot in back. Lodged his VAT return with Julian Steadman day before.

Saad went to Geneva alone leaving the family at the campsite, in the days before.

Khadhim opened account in 1984, Jack Saltman wonders how Saad managed to cover his bills as he often wasn’t working.

6-6-2013 at 23:34:48


Did you recognize Bossy?

6-6-2013 at 23:47:25

£680k in the Swiss bank nothing else in any other bank in Switzerland.

Saads uncle tortured in Iraq and left permanently disabled.

Dark side to Saad, anti-Israel etc.

Saad Mechanical Engineer, involved in the unfolding mechanism of surveillance satellite not sensitive info.

Sadaams lawyer – Mossad or CIA.

Friends and family – including Dr Zaid Albadi cannot accept that the family brought on their own deaths.

String of disputes with his brother, Jack Saltman thinks house worth £1M !

Saad was happy in the day before he left for France, Dr Albadi.

EM, again, Zaid would be arrested if he’d been in France etc.

21 shell casings. traces of firearm in the wounds of Zainab! Obsolete weapn.

Luger P06, many in circulation, not a stolen gun.

Experienced gunman, not professional, disorganised too many shots fired.

EM, favours idea of an international contract killer.

Peter Allen thinks EM is wrong, Sylvain Mollier, still no photo, need to know more about this.

6-6-2013 at 23:54:42

Mollier’s position is strange, if I understand Lynda correctly, lying on the lay-by side of the car, head towards the rear of the car.
If Mollier was indeed hit and dragged by the car, he must have been standing quite a bit from the road, on the lay-by, as the car was reversing, see tyre marks. Seems strange.

6-7-2013 at 00:06:36

@Lars, maybe ……..

Will check when it’s over.N No mention of attempting to punch WBM !

FB giving the story that we all know, via the media and on this blog.

Peter Allen questions EM thoughts about Mollier, more than one pharmacy.

TS did suggest a route, but Mollier didn’t take it or took the wrong one. PA doesn’t believe that as there were at least three cyclists around at that time, it is known for cycling.

EM says media are lying as he has found nothing to show Mollier as target, the Schutz family were put under surveillance and phone tapped – nothing.

EM hasn’t really interviewed the girls they are under the protection of Social Services, Prof Graham Davies says it could be years before the girls feel able to speak.

Still an ongoing investigation, 45 officers still liaising with Surrey Police.

6-7-2013 at 00:06:40

Will be interesting to see if the French press, e.g. Le Dauphine, will react to the fact that their Philippe D. has suddenly come out as Philippe Bossy, and how they will react.

6-7-2013 at 00:08:21

well that wasnt too bad !

6-7-2013 at 00:14:39


Glad to hear that you are positive for a change. 🙂

I just hope that we all shall be able too see it somehow.

6-7-2013 at 00:22:06

@FB, I wonder what happened to all the stuff that’s been in the newspapers ?

At least Peter Allen questioned EM’s wisdom, gosh he doth protest too much !

Lars, I think it is the nursing home guy…..

6-7-2013 at 00:28:40


I had hoped it was the butler! 🙂

6-7-2013 at 00:37:54

I don’t get TVreception here (under the radar) in furthest Cornwall and barely any bandwidth. I wifi off a neighbour.
So thanks all for any comments reference the CH4 documentary. Hope it comes up on YouTube.

6-7-2013 at 00:40:03

@Lars, I was hoping to be able to read the DVD in the laptop, for the moment I can’t get it to work, too tired to try now.

Goodnight all.

6-7-2013 at 00:43:27


Many thanks for this forst info (I really need to see it myself)

… ‘PB and WBM, were there – 6 or 7 minutes before calling emergency services.’

This alone thightens the timeline to extreme!!

I have to do a recalculation. And taking the Alex drive time sign-Martinet into account.

The only way I can see it work is when BM was going much faster uphill than I assumed (from his words). THAT could in principle be brought to test;) … EM did ask and rechecked statements etc to check the ‘timeline’ … but the thing he did NOT do was to get BM perform the UPHILL climb again and TIME THAT CLIMB!

He has much less than 20 minutes to do the Sign-Martinet climb, perhaps even a less as 16 minutes … which is a bit weird seeing BM stating a couple of times that the climb takes ‘a half hour’ (probably he means the starting point is Doussard??)

– M

6-7-2013 at 01:04:15

Chapeau FB! For a very fine defence of a friend.

Chapeau Lynda! For a great synopsis.


“At least Peter Allen questioned EM’s wisdom, gosh he doth protest too much !”

For me, this was the part of that raised my hackles the most.

EM was way too dismissive of the notion that SM could have been the principal
target. Suggesting that the idea belongs to fiction… yet still pursuing notions of an international hit man tracking the Al Hilli’s to a remote location they were guided to by the camp site manager???

6-7-2013 at 01:30:45

Fat Bastard ….well done came over well in support of your friend.
I would be interested what was left out from the interview you gave?!

I thought that this was, overall a week program.

For me, I found EM most interesting to watch giving his interviews, he is seriously uptight with the “British Authorities” not giving him access to Z&Z( his body language and facial expresions showed one frustrated EM). EM was strong on the profesional non French gunman using a local weapon.

EM seemed to be genuinlly interested in arresting and questioning ZAH, going as far as to state that if he had lived in France he would have been arrested and questioned.

Fat Bastard’s skype conversations were used to illustrate the brothers falling out overe the Clayhill property. Also to start a wider ranging coversation about SAH and his anti Jewish views.

Also noted was SAH trip to Iraq in 2003 to see/resolve the family house. It was suggested that SAH got in a fight and got ablack eye from the occupants of the property valued at $500k.

A rather poor french jounalist (Jean Marc du Coste)tried to put forward the non profesional hit theory – JMduC also “claims”to have seen/had access to the French Police file on the case, which begs the question as to why his opinions about the case differ considerably from those of EM .

Shell casings – 21 mentioned twice from a P06 Lugar – they also had a gun collector state that it was a nice gun to use and was acurate
EM got very defensive (body language) when pushed on SM and the Schultz family. ( In my opinion a man being leaned on from above!/Political). He really did all he could to say that the family was a dead end for the investigators.

Peter Allen is a well respected journalist and posed serious questions about SM – emg. Why no photo etc and genuinely seemed to think there is more to be uncovered on the SM side! He also stated 7 bullets in SM and he was first shot!He also explored the inheritance and the fact SM & CS were now wealthy individuals.He also stated there were 3 cyclists on the hill at that time.

Dario Z- went over what I belive is already known about the case – £680k/965k euros in account opened in 1984 by KAH – and Emanuel Ludot (Sadham Husains Lawyer) made the point that the CIA had detailed lists of all accounts relating to SH’s assets! He also made the point that any Iran/Shir conection would have attracted the interest of Israel and the secret service.

Other Info :-

It was claimed that documents found at SAH house at Claygate indicated that SAH traveled to Geneva alone during the stay.

According to JMduC it was the camp manager who suggested they go to the Chevaline area when SAH asked where they could go for a walk

Balistics report states SAH was shot in the back before he got in the car.

2 hours for Police to set road blocks and implement boarder checks.

6-7-2013 at 02:41:17


Having had time now to reflect on tonights program I would like to add the following comments…….

EM stated that he was following 8 leads and went out of his way to say that investigators on his team have differing theorys on how and why!

So the investigating team are not in agreement as to how this was carried out!

EM did not detail what the 8 leads were !

No mention was made by the programme of any vehicles other than those of SAH and SM – so no mention of 4×4 /ONF/MC1 to 4/ white Puegot etc.

PB did not mention trying to punch BM, did not even touch on the subject, so was this just more press fantasies earlier in the week!

Again there was only scant mention of BM and his actions and no interview with him or mention of what he saw!

So, apart from EM and his body language, for me the program was interesting for what it did not discuss rather than what it did, could it be that there are still things that the investigation is controling, i.e. Certain areas pertaining to EM 8 leads that cant be published or broadcast?

I am still uneasy about why the French reporter JMduC claimed to have access to
the Police files and would express a view different than EM – his inclusion seemed odd to me!

Also at one point it is suggested by the program that SM came to the assistance of the shot SAH family in their car and was then shot himself. This was then countered by Paul Allen stating SM was first hit and tool 7 shots.

EM took a step up in my estimation but the guy is under serious presure v SM and the CS/GS/TS and the extended family(PM) IMHO!

6-7-2013 at 03:31:41

comment from C4 website

richard inns on 06 June 2013 at 22:23

I think you want to get your facts right about this program!! the family involved were iraq living in England!! not British living in England, very misleading!!thank you.

Richard Inns ………oh what a fool you are

6-7-2013 at 03:35:52

Fat Bastard’s skype conversations were used to illustrate the brothers falling out overe the Clayhill property. Also to start a wider ranging coversation about SAH and his anti Jewish views.

er Im Jewish
i think you mean anti Israeli views 😉

6-7-2013 at 03:50:03

With reference to the Channel 4 Al Hilli programme tonight (6.6.13), timed obviously to mark nine months since the event, I think its fair to say it promised more than it delivered. But there were a few new tid-bits.

For example we were able to SEE Philippe Didierjean/Bossy for the first time, and nice chap he was too. Though unless I missed it, I don’t think he was named. I think we have to thank Mario Zanni, the Swiss Prosecutor for that.

The programme repeats the line that WBM, as he was cycling away from the scene, met the “hiker”. There is pointedly no mention of him being in a car or having to female companions or that they both went back to the scene together. I suppose this could be put down to oversight but after nine months in which to get the story straight, it would be a very big one.

Nor is the story of him suspecting WBM and attempting to land a punch, compatible with the former French story. It would only make sense if he came upon the scene and found Martin there. He almost says as much when he says he thought he would be next to be shot – presumably by Martin.

Of course the question hangs in the air as to why the official French account could be so wrong and remain uncorrected for so long?

Now another point the film perpetuates is that the 3.15 pm photograph is reliable (which I firmly question) but perhaps even more significantly, that the Al Hilli’s actually overtook Sylvain Mollier going up the mountain road and that they were shot almost immediately on arrival after SM had arrived also.

There are several problems with this scenario previously discussed, not least the fact that IF they overtook SM they must also have overtaken WBM who was following only minutes behind Mollier. If this sequence of events were true, we would have to ask why did Martin not refer to it?

The programme makers lose points for not challenging this version of accounts which is unsustainable.

Didierjean/Bossy refers for the first time, to the rather gory detail of the large hole he noticed in SAH’s head “the size of a Euro” I believe. I am not a ballistics expert but it may be worth posing the question to those that are, would this be expected of a normal 7.65 mm bullet from an old Luger?

The graphics in the film are quite interesting in relation to the location of Mollier and his bike and what it reveals. We must assume after all this time they have got it right.

It’s significant because first it is DIFFERENT from ALL the early graphics in the French press, presumably reflecting what their police sources told them. These all had Mollier and his bike lying prone on the NEARSIDE FRONT QUARTER of the car. This film has him lying on the OPPOSITE side and his bike a little further off.

Not only does this accord with the blood stains and makes sense (as I am pleased to say I argued from the first) it also scotches the police account that the circular tyre tracks were Al Hilli’s and that he struck Mollier in the process.

Apart from the impossibility of geometry and sequencing discussed in the past, the bike in that location would have been in the way. It would have to have been run over. It was UNDAMAGED so this could not have happened.

Notably Didierier/Bossy stated that Mollier “was at the back of the car”. Perhaps he just means it was on the far side as he approached up the hill. In any event it confirms the body lay on the the near/LHS of the BMW not the right.

It also confirms Mollier was shot in the BACK. From this it is reasonable to infer he had a moment of realisation, and attempted to run as did Saad who made it back to the driver’s seat of the car. This is significant because it proves they had a few seconds of warning, as distinct from a hidden sniper.

Further the attacker(s) must have approached from the top end of the car park not from below or from the woods. (How else can one explain bullets in the back on LHS of the car or SAH managing to get back to the driver’s seat?)

As to the cartridges found this was initially 15 increased to 25 on the second day after the car was moved and searched. The C4 film says it was 21. This is a significant discrepancy that no one explains.

The film also highlights the contrast between the approach to the Al Hillis and to the Molliers. It does not however ask of the French authorities why this should be. Nor does it delve into the family’s fascinating history that would have revealed all the intriguing long-standing political connections that may provide clues as to cause.

In other words this was description purporting to be investigation and analysis. How long will we have to wait before there is a proper forensic examination of the facts and of those charged with interpreting them?

6-7-2013 at 03:56:06

* “having TWO female companions” APOLOGIES

6-7-2013 at 04:38:10

Thanks Lynda (and others) for the synopsis, a few interesting tidbits even among that.
Did the documentary state what other disputes the brothers had been having
apart from the father’s will?
Was the concensus still that SM was definitely shot first?

6-7-2013 at 06:38:08

@Marilyn. Thanks for your very fair moderating. You point is in fact well taken.


I didn’t see the C4 documentary so am grateful for the summaries.


I still have a big question about the background and wonder if you can help.

Are you able to confirm from your own knowledge whether SAH had an eminent forebear, maybe his grandfather was a high ranking Iraqi diplomat and emissary to the UN, and attended the Bandung Conference in 1955 on behalf of the Kingdom of Iraq?

Would you consider them to have been an extraordinary, special family?

6-7-2013 at 08:49:49

I have watched the documentary (in stits and farts) using On Demand catch-up. It is very much a TV programme in a TV programme format. This TV style has to been seen as unbiased and non-accusatory of course. I am glad the little girls are being protected but wholey unsatisfied that enough is being done in all aspects of the investigation. I was especially annoyed about the remarks that it was not a novel or film being played out! Need I say more. If anything I now have a higher level of disquiet about the region this occurred in.
It was nice to put a face to Mr Bastard but horrible to witness completely insensitive adverts for play-station games. Thanks for all the comments by other watchers.

6-7-2013 at 09:15:02

I am none the wiser.

By this I mean because of the doc and not because of our commentators reports. You’ve all done great work. Thank you! Thank you very much!

I have other urgent matters to see to today, so I won’t be taking part in chat during the day.

Something odd: I work (read comments and comment) from my Admin page and I could not understand why there was reference to Lynda’s summary. I then realised that a comment of Alexander, another from Max and one from me were not listed. So, I went on to my website and — they were listed on the website! I have no explanation for this. I now wonder how many comments I’ve missed because they were not listed on Admin. Gremlins? Or some other entity messing with my Admin …

6-7-2013 at 09:22:47

There is a big buzz in blogistan today! 🙂

6-7-2013 at 10:14:16

Good morning, everybody.

I haven’t watched the documentary yet, but I certainly will 😉
(not available to IP addresses outside the UK)
(YouTube, available to all)

6-7-2013 at 10:44:44

I still have to watch the docu myself but reflecting on See_Bee’s

‘According to JMduC it was the camp manager who suggested they go to the Chevaline area when SAH asked where they could go for a walk’

… I will withdraw the ‘mask’ theory

Which for me cracks this case wide open again, because now I’m not going after a or any connection (active or passive) between AH and SM.

This would mean that there are 2 main options (solutions)

1. X was after a target, and the other was per def a collateral
2. X was a nutter and both where per def collateral

So we have possibilities:

A. AH=target, SM collateral
B. SM=target, AH’s collateral
C. X=Nutter, SM and AH both unlucky prey, with coincidence that both were at Martinet at the same time

One could say that this was known from the start, but for me it is a new ‘reset’;)

– M

6-7-2013 at 11:18:57

Having now watched the documentary I must say that E-Maillaud is his own funny self.

After having launched a bunch of malicious accusations at the al-Hilli family, he says: it is not the job of the investigation to come up with any malicious accusations at the Schutz family. Very funny! 😉

6-7-2013 at 11:21:14


I only knew Saad as a british bloke
i never talked to his dad about his history

6-7-2013 at 11:40:45

Ive looked out the door .there are no journalists camped

I will have to throw away all the tea and biscuits

6-7-2013 at 12:08:53

Well, seeing as many of you have now seen the documentary, did my best to type details whilst it was on, two more commentators have posted a synopsis, we all saw and appear to have the same interpretation. Which is good, only one I didn’t pick up was SM shot in back, Saad I did.

What I would hope is that not only the position of SM and Zainab was correct, but that he was wearing a helmet.

I disagre with TimV about it not being possible that SM was dragged by the reversing car, I would say much more likely on the inside of the arc, the bike remaining towards the centre – although that is not what EM said at the debut ‘jettez dans un coin’ thrown in a corner.

I think EM is rattled by the likes of us continuing to comment, a very typical sulky Frenchman who isn’t getting his own way !

I am convinced more by the day that this is going to be written off as an international hitman and he’ll never be found, with the Al-Hilli family being the target.

I say ‘written off’ because I don’t believe a word of it !

Have a good day debating.

@Lars, he does look alot like the nursing home guy, don’t you think ?

Did anyone go behind the paywall or see the article ?

6-7-2013 at 13:14:08

Actually E-Maillaud has convinced me more than ever that this is a French affair, which he is so scared to touch that he even wants to silence the press by calling them liars.

As Max, among many others, pointed out, Maillaud decided very early on were to find the perpetrator and that absolutely NO Frenchman was involved, God forbid. He obviously still has not a shred of evidence to support this theory.

If I had been Zaid al-Hilli I would probably had sued E-Maillaud. (I am good at suing people offending me 🙂 ). I would also normally had adviced Zaid al-Hilli to go to France to clear himself of any suspicions. But seeing how Maillaud is acting, Zaid al-Hilli could probably end up in custody for life, without even facing a trial.


Could be the nursing home guy

6-7-2013 at 13:22:08

I wonder where Colin Freeman got the name Philippe Bossy. Seeing in the documentary who he (Colin) is, he probably did not invent the name himself.

When he wrote the article he must have been well aware that the man had been called Didierjean up until then, still he doesn’t mention it with a single word. Why?

I also noticed that Peter Allen mentions several pharmacies (Plural) in the hands of the Schutz family. He however never mentions which pharmacies, perhaps because that would involve more families. I know of at least two pharmacies. I wonder if there are more?

6-7-2013 at 13:26:23

I also noticed that Sylvain Mollier was mentioned as a “working-class guy”.
I think many of us have believed that it is a correct description, but it always nice when it is said out loud in a documentary.

6-7-2013 at 13:30:15

Brilliant, thanks so much for the youtube link to the doco.
Nice to put a face to your name FB.
There doesn’t appear to be a lot of cooperation between the British and French police.
I do understand the frustration of the French prosecutor if he has not been able to interview Zaid Al Hilli or the children.

6-7-2013 at 14:23:04

The SM shot in back comment from Tim V….did you find that quote on the video? -I have a voice recording of the program and having re-run the tape this morning can find no referance to this! I did pick up the SAH shot in the back comment ….does TV have this mixed up?

This French journalist JMduC who claims to have “had access to” the French Police report. Question – how does a french journalist get access to a report that is confidential and supposedly protected by French law?
Do you or MZT have any knowlege of this guy and his profesional reputation or is he a sensationalist that should be discounted. Will/should the french police, investigate him and how he gained access and was prepared to disclose such information…is that not a crime in France?

I too disagree with the comments of TV with regard to several of his points. I agree with you in with regard to the movements of the car and have posted on this in detail before.

@Max …dont discount your “Mask” theory yet…that infomation v the campsite manager was disclosed by JMduC with the inferance that it came from the Police report! (A document that legally he should NOT have had access to!).

@Fat Bastard
Note your comment about your faith and v anti Israel views and agree with you …however the program was proporting to show “skype screens shots”(which I presume were mocked up for the program) and your conversations with SAH

One of the Skype shots referenced “jews” with a negative inference that SAH was anti. …and it was this and his cousin Housain’s’ and journalist Colin Freeman’s’ coments that I was refering to. (“Support for Iran/hez/what can I do to help fight against Israel or rectify injustices there”.)

6-7-2013 at 15:02:13

@SeeBee, my point really, there was no mention of Mollier being shot in the back. I haven’t looked at it again since posting last night as it played out.

The French journalist, it was said that someone in the police had given him information, a contact.

Lars, I picked up the mulitple pharmacies, although I can account for two, one of them seems to have been liquidated before moving to the current address in Grignon.

If there are more that CS has been gifted, I really wonder what her brother makes of it all and how has he been compensated.

Leos tweets – school went back on the 4th, so maybe that is why they stopped, I’ve said this before.

Still think the behaviour of EM is outlandish, look at the comments about SMs cycle route, TS did suggest one, but either SM took a different one or he got lost, which Peter Allen doesn’t believe.

EM commented that to suggest TS had anything to do with are just ‘malicious rumours’, TS didn’t suggest he go to Martinet.

Saad being given the idea of going up the Combe d’Ire, someone staying at the campsite already said that Saad had told them they planned to go for a walk. Logic to ask at the reception desk.

What about the three cyclists that were about at the time, is this another one or another three ?

Peter Allen works for The Sunday Times, it was his article last Sunday, probably worth going past the paywall for a one off fee.

Can’t find a Jean Marc Ducros journalist ? Have I noted the name incorrectly ?

What about the piece of the gun, not found on the floor but in Zainabs wounds, I bet it was just a fragment, therefore very difficult to DNA.

6-7-2013 at 15:09:50
6-7-2013 at 15:24:25

Having watched the documentary, I think the case is solved: 21 spent casings were found, which most probably means three mags loaded with seven bullets each, no bullet in the chamber to start with. The only reason I can think of for distributing the ammunition like that, one round short of maximal capacity in each magazine, is that they were precious vintage magazines and that the shooter wanted to go easy on the magazine springs (these wear out at an exponential rate the more bullets one crams into the magazine).

Now cut to the starry-eyed vintage gun collector interviewed at 33:10-33:26 drooling over his own P06: “The weapon is an antique, but still the most beautiful firearm in the world. Because of its functioning, its precision and its beauty. And it’s so easy to handle … Look!” –> Case solved 😉

Seriously speaking, that bit about 21 rather than 25 casings having been found had been mentioned before, but the documentary has now confirmed it to my satisfaction. To my mind, the reason given above regarding the magazine springs plus the sheer number of shots fired point towards some local nutter obsessed with his vintage gun who merely waited for an opportunity to kill as many people as possible with it.

6-7-2013 at 15:33:05

@Lynda name I noted was “Jean Marc du Coste” ..!

6-7-2013 at 15:45:13

@ See_Bee, Lynda

Ektually, the name given is Jean-Marc Ducos of the “Le Parisien – Aujourd’hui”. I have downloaded the video off YouTube and that is how his name is spelled in the subtitles.

6-7-2013 at 15:58:44

Interesting chap, that Ducos. He may be a BS merchant for all I know, but at least it’s detailed BS. Look at his Twitter account:

Going back in time there a bit, there are some interesting Tweets, e. g. on 29 April: #Chevaline. Cette BMW X5 roulait vite ce 5 septembre 2012. Deux témoins ont vu cette voiture. Voir Parisien du 14 avril. Avis à l’AFP…
#Chevaline. La BMW X 5 vue sur Doussard entre 15 h 15 et 15 h 30. Conduite rapide et dangereuse. A failli emboutir deux autres voitures.

6-7-2013 at 16:04:48

@Peter, I couldn’t read my own writing ! Ducos it is, a retained journalist (salaried) at Le Parisien, too many links to post.

I do like his Tweet though !

At leats with it appearing on Youtube, we will all be able to view it.

6-7-2013 at 16:11:37

@ Lynda

Well, Ducos keeps complaining that AFP steals his stories, but he has been in the game for a long time and probably does have excellent police contacts. I’m still sifting his tweets for nuggets of info.

20 October: #Chevaline. Le même procureur assurait qu’il n’y avait pas de vidéos surveillance. Il y a trois cameras vidéo à Doussart sur la route…

6-7-2013 at 16:14:08

There were definitely leaks from the police at the end of last year, when parts of the crime scene scenario as well as forensic info were leaked.

I guess that Ducos fellow got his information from these leaks, not that he had any real access to any files, which would be extraordinary.

Could be interesting to check if it was this chap who wrote the articles on Chevaline in Le Parisien then.

6-7-2013 at 16:15:26

Found the Ducos Twitter account….agree there are some interesting posts there…!

6-7-2013 at 16:16:12

@Peter, thanks for the YT link

6-7-2013 at 16:18:30

That weapon collector (and collector of everything else it seems) in Annecy was also staring in the French documentary, so he has certainly had his fifteen minutes of fame.

6-7-2013 at 16:19:54

@ Lars
Yup, that’s the guy from Le Parisien, and he was the first one (or so he says) to interview Didierjean/Bossy. 10 September: #Haute-Savoie #Tuerie. Le récit détaillé de l’homme qui a alerté les secours. Exclu demain dans Le Parisien-Aujourd’hui en France.

6-7-2013 at 16:23:12


The other pharmacy is situated in La Léchère, and is as far as I know not liquidated.

6-7-2013 at 16:24:42

Thanks Peter, then I don’t have to check in my archive.

6-7-2013 at 16:29:32

@ Lars
I have to qualify my statement about Ducos being the guy who wrote those articles in Le Parisien. He regularly gave advance notice of these articles on Twitter, and he does work for Le Parisien covering crime, but the articles themselves are not attributed to any particular author. See for example:

6-7-2013 at 16:35:03

Funny that E-Maillaud keeps saying that Mollier was lost without explaining where he was going.

I think Maillaud relies on the fact that most viewers have no idea what the surroundings look like, and how probable it is that someone local is getting lost there, and will end up on Le Martinet.

I asked See_Bee this question earlier since he has been there, and he confirmed that it was improbable that Mollier was lost. But Maillaud keeps repeating it.

6-7-2013 at 16:47:46

@see bee
the skype mock ups were quite good
as in they were exactly as Saad typed them typos et all
but very selective !

94 pages are here when you come for tea !

6-7-2013 at 16:51:21

@ Lynda, 6-7-2013 at 15:09:50

That manérence-savoie.pdf
is most definitely the “Philippe Bossy” of the C4 documentary, and his laudable idea of giving presentations in retirement homes almost certainly also makes him the Tour de France enthusiast whom I had spotted earlier

6-7-2013 at 16:53:40

Just thinking
if SS are being very protective of the Zs
then i would like to be very protective of E-Maillaud
I could keep him in a darkened room until he solves the case
might let the girls out of their prison quicker

6-7-2013 at 17:06:38

@Peter, it is the one that Lars alerted us to ….. I merely found the photo …..

“Mercredi 6 Février, Philippe Bossy, conférencier et guide de haute montagne, nous a proposés un très agréable moment merveilleusement imagé”

I don’t think it is the Crachier guy, very active though he is :

Could he be the one from Annecy, neither of the property addresses he is linked to have a ‘shop front’, so he works from home.

There’s a 42 year old looking for lurve as well !

6-7-2013 at 17:11:47

Talking about interesting chaps, the producer of the C4 documentary is a very interesting person:

Sheldon Lazarus is an award-winning
documentary and film maker. He has
been the Creative Director, (Factual) at September Films since 2007 where his
credits include the hit series
Billy the Exterminator, I Am The Elephant Man
highest rated documentary on National Geographic),
Penn and Teller: Fool Us
and a host of other programmes. After leaving September Films in 2011, he
formed a new production company
to develop and produce unscripted
TV, scripted TV, branded entertainment
and film for network, cable and
syndication in the UK and USA. Perhaps most
unusual of all is that Sheldon is an
Orthodox Jew
made successful in a highly competitive, secular industry.

6-7-2013 at 18:43:11


You are quite right that EM continues to support the SM lost senario! It would appear that he has bought in big time to the TS sugestion of a route given to SM that he did not follow and therefore he must be lost!

Guess EM would like to ignore the opinions of free-thinking individuals who would sugest that it would be illogical to assume that a 41yr old male, from a working class background, who has lived in the area ALL of his life was lost 23kms from his front door on a racing bike!.

Further TS has sugested that the Combe d’Ire was unsuitable for his type of bike, why would such a suggestion not raise eybrows as not only is the Combe d’Ire suitable for a racing bike SM managed to get up the Combe d’Ire to Martinett carpark at a reasonaable speed.

My opinion of the road up above Martinett is such that the unpaved section IS unsuitable for this type of bike, but please note that it is passable if you wanted to do it ( I have cycled worst tracks in the New Forest in Hampshire when I was a kid on a racing bike without puntures). So I am open to asugestion that SM may have decided to go over Combe de Cherel and complete a circular route back to Ugine (we cyclists like circular routes more than out and back routes).

Were there any witnesses to TS telling/advising SM where to go? If not there is only the word of TS that:-

1) The conversation took place
2) it was somewhere other than Combe d’Ire that TS advised SM to go

Yet EM continues to push/support the “Lost” senario ….

Lars, I stand by my previous statement, all you need to do is look at a Map to see how obsurd the “lost” senario is. Once you are in the Dousard area the only road (paved), of any length up the surounding hills to the SouthWest is the Combe d’Ire! .

Further it has been reported that SM had relations in that area (I have not been able to find anything to support this as yet-so a wéaker point for the time being)

For me, SM was not “Lost”, he may not have been where TS thought he was/or where he (TS) told him to go, but that is not an indication that SM was lost.

6-7-2013 at 19:28:33


I have also become more and more convinced that Sylvain Mollier had planned a round trip, and was going over Col de Cherel and back over Albertville to Ugine. He should be able to do that before it became to late in the evening.

I have also repeated here several times, though I am a person who only goes cycling for transportation or pleasure, that circular routes are to be preferred, not to get bored.

6-7-2013 at 19:34:33

@SeeBee, it’s Molliers uncle, he spoke on French TV.

Mollier was 45, Bossy apparently is/was 41, I think he’s 42 now. Mollier would have been 46 earlier this year.

If you go back you’ll see that it was reported that Mollier was on a new route, suggested by TS, it seems that Claire said he took a wrong turn as this wasn’t the route he should have been on. Although she is reported to have gone searching for him and arrived at a road block – only question I have with that is that ‘it took several hours to secure’, so she could well have gone to another place, all the exits from Les Bauges were apparently blocked.

Just watched it again, no statement said Mollier was shot in the back, just at least 7 shots inside him.

I just wish more care had been taken, for example the illustrations of the killings had Saad in a left hand drive car, this changes the dynamics greatly.

How on earth could the journalist claim that the BMW overtook Mollier, unless of course it overtook WBM as well, but he hasn’t said this to the press ?

Even Bossy said that it was ‘obvious that Mollier had gone to their help by the position of the bike’. Oh how to know where the shell casings fell, ‘they’ were afraid they were going to be next.

6-7-2013 at 19:36:47

The C4 doc is not available in my area.

6-7-2013 at 19:55:37

@ Lynda, 6-7-2013 at 19:34:33

Sorry to be pedantic, but Peter Allen didn’t say anything along the lines of SM having been shot at least seven times. Rather, his (fairly vacuous) statement was that SM had been shot with “anything up to seven bullets (…) including bullets to the head,” which doesn’t say a great deal. One bullet? Two? … Seven? Likewise, his other assertions such as that SM was the first victim to be shot may or may not be true, but in the absence of even a hint as to the source of that information, I should categorize those ramblings as mere rumours.

You are right, though, there was no claim in the entire documentary about SM having been shot in the back.

6-7-2013 at 19:57:36

@ Marilyn

Use YouTube instead

6-7-2013 at 20:40:02

Even though this British documentary is immensely much better than its French counterpart, I think it is sad thay they in their reconstructions have not used the real place, Le Martinet. The same goes for the parts made of drawings, where they have not used the real place as a model.

Surely the lay-by in the reconstruction looks small but it doesn’t look like Le Martinet at all. Also when they show reconstructions on the road, Route de la Forestiere, it doesn’t look like the real road at all, it is a road in a flat landscape. Compare that to the pictures from the real road or Alex’s video, where you can see this very narrow road, surrounded by the steep mountain sides and the Ire.

You loose a feeling for the place when it doesn’t look like the real thing.

6-7-2013 at 20:55:18

I’ve now watched the doc on YouTube. (Thanks Peter.) (Lynda, thank you for your offer to post me a CD of the doc, but it won’t be necessary.)

The doc was well done.

I must just ask whether I heard correctly that CS was described as a ‘wayward woman’?

Because I am a woman I am allowed to change my mind. (We’ve dealt with this before, remember?)

So, I am once again changing my mind.

It was the work of a nutter. Alexander has been saying this all along, and now I say so too.

The conspiracy theories are due to the Al-Hillis having hailed from Iraq. Had it been Mr and Mrs John Smith and Mrs Smith’s mother, Mrs Brown, who had been shot to death, there would have been no conspiracy theory talks ever.

On that day a nutter with his old Luger was out there in that forest on foot or on a bicycle. He was not up to any particular mischief, probably wanted to shoot some rabbit or hare, and then up cycled a young man and the demon in the man with the Luger decided that it would really be great to shoot a human being dead instead of something as banal as a rabbit or hare. The dormant demons in him having been awakened, he fired and fired into the cyclist. To his astonishment a car approached. He would have run to hide, but then the driver of the car, having seen a man, covered in blood, on the ground, jumped from the car to see if he could help him: he thought that the cyclist had been victim of a hit-and-run driver. A child who was sitting in the front passenger seat, also jumped out to go and have a look: children do. The nutter might have made a noise (coughed for example) and the driver of the car saw him and when he saw the gun in his hand, he shouted to the child to get back into the car and he, himself, ran for the car, but a bullet hit him in his back. He nonetheless got to the car, managed to lift himself in behind the wheel … and the rest we know: the nutter killed all in the car, and then, believing he had also killed the child, he ran back into the forest and by the time the gendarmerie and the pompiers got to the lay-by he was well away.

That nutter is a local man. He will betray himself through something he will say or do. But until this happens Saad Al-Hillis’ life will continue to be scrutinised and somewhere someone will find something that Saad’s friends and neighbours did not know about him which will result in renewed conspiracy theories. Who can claim a clean slate? Who can claim that they’ve never done or said something they should not have done or said? Whose life is an open book?

Peter Allen was good. I agree with him that the solution lies in France. A French nutter did it.

The day that this crime is solved this blog will probably no longer be open, but you will each say ‘the solution was right there under our noses, and we didn’t realise it.’

I think Prosecutor Maillaud is unnecessarily complicating this case speaking of the solution being in England. Is it that he can’t believe that a French person can be so crazy as to gun down four people in cold blood? He also should not have said about Saad’s brother: “We would have taken him into custody.” if I am to do a write-up of the doc that will be my heading. We would have taken him into custody.

Fat Bastard you came over well.

6-7-2013 at 21:07:26

@Peter, I accept your pedantic nature – I have one to!

And I would re-iterate Lars, much in it was incorrect, did anyone pick up that WBM turned a corner and came across the car, there is no corner, also he was cycling in the forest, the illustration didn’t even look like a road.

Maybe what was meant is that the car was tucked into a corner or some such.

@FB were you paid for your contribution ?

If you weren’t who has the knowledge amongst us to do a documentary, sell it to a TV channel ? On reflection this one was no better than the others, it didn’t answer any questions it purported it would. I suppose at best it did try to debunk the conspiracy theories, it also showed Maillaud in a poor light, he ain’t gonna like that !

@Marilyn, follow Peters link, I’ve watched it on Youtube so you will be able to as well, at least it is without the adverts, 47 minutes.

What we need to remember is that it was made for general viewing, how many tuned in, how many have followed the case, few, judging by the hits on Youtube, there were less than 100 when I watched it.

With apologies to FB, apart from Bossy it was all anecdotes, everything Mailluad said we’ve heard before, I am though intrigued by the 21 shell casings, anyone have a link where Maillaud says 25 ?

So, Peter, ‘up to seven bullets inside him’ does that account for it ? Actually, that statement alone gives me a doubt, apparently there were bullets found on the road towards Chevaline, so they weren’t ones that passed through SM.

The 2 Euro bullet hole ‘The hiker’ refers to – could that be an exit wound rather than an entry wound ?

I have no experience of such things and wonder if the distance a shot was fired from would make a difference, of course it would but what difference ?

6-7-2013 at 21:50:43

Even though I didn’t appreciate the reconstructions, and sometimes thought the speaker text a bit dubious, I still think that some of the interviews were at least good, and we got the chance to see Bossy for the first time. The doc also tried to ask some relevant questions and Maillaud’ s statements were questioned. So even if the “final” documentary is still to be made I think it was a step forward. Maybe not a giant step for mankind, but anyhow.

What is a bit strange is that in a British documentary about Chevaline, the British “hero” Brett-Martin was not visible at all.

6-7-2013 at 21:52:19

EM cannot admit that it is an Annecy/Savoie/Haute Savoie problem, because that means the killer is likely walking amongst them.

Now that would be very bad for business.

I just don’t accept that an international hitman would acquire an old local weapon to do the job and the bullets of course.

If that were the case then someone has sold it on, they know they sold it on and they know who they sold it to. Now they of course could be sh**ing themselves as I write.

Bacchus has already said that they were all collateral, so what was going on up there that fateful afternoon ? I also like his idea that it is someone who is there every day, because of passing through or work.

6-7-2013 at 21:58:19

Question – what documents would HSBC Geneva require SAH to have signed in person at the bank and then have posted to SAH’s’Claygate address that would indicate to UK police that he attended the bank a few days prior to his death. I can only think that he signed papers at the bank to add or take signatories to the mandate or had delivered papers to the bank to prove or alter the % of the intrest in the acount of the parties(SAH & ZAH) or had given instructions to work the money(unlikely if the will was contested).

Such maters could have been delt with by post and fax and or through a Lawyer if contentious.

6-7-2013 at 22:22:34

@ Lynda, 6-7-2013 at 21:07:26

I also picked up upon WBM going around a bend – and immediately thought: “Oh, he was going downhill, then!” The stretch of road leading uphill to the Martinet is a longish (> 150 metres at least, I will have to have another look at Alex’ video) straight, whereas there is a hairpin turn immediately above the Martinet. It may be just another journalistic embellishment / inaccuracy though, who knows?

Regarding the 2-Euro-bullet-hole, distance doesn’t make much of a difference. Either the bullet still has sufficient energy to penetrate at that distance or it doesn’t. There could have been several other effects at play here, though: 1. Any bullet entering a human body temporarily creates a wound canal many times its own diameter. For a bullet of this calibre, we are talking about a salami-sized wound canal, to put it graphically. In soft tissue, that wound canal usually closes or shrinks quite quickly again. However, as the human skull has tautly-stretched skin and almost no fat on the outside, an entry hole in a skull will look bigger than one on a human belly, for example. 2. Passing through the glass of the driver’s side window may have caused the bullet to “mushroom” already, increasing its diameter, thus also increasing the diameter of the entry wound. The extent of this mushrooming effect very much depends upon the type of ammunition used and the angle of the shot, from a barely-deformed bullet to one that has already broken up into several pieces and sends a shower of glass fragments flying ahead of it as secondary projectiles. 3. It could simply be an exit hole. In that case, however, for the reason given in the foregoing point, it would have to have been a very hard, solid projectile, almost like an armour-piercing bullet. The size of a 2-Euro-coin sounds almost too small for an exit hole, given that this projectile would have driven a high-velocity jet of bone fragments and liquid (and hence incompressible; liquids are by definition incompressible, or as good as) brain matter ahead of it.

6-7-2013 at 22:37:00

@ See_Bee, 6-7-2013 at 21:58:19

I reckon that SAH presented the original of a good, notarized will for Kadhim AH at the bank. The inference that he signed anything there is, I think, only yours. *If* investigators found any documents from the bank at his home indicating that he had been to the bank a few days before his death (I don’t recall that bit right now, but I shall look out for it in my nth viewing of that C4 documentary), this IMHO can only have been an E-Maillaud from the bank confirming an appointment with his (or rather his father’s) client advisor.

6-7-2013 at 22:37:38


Thanls for your ref for the Uncle of SM ..

Spent cassings – we have had that converstion before so wont bore you again …sufice to say check the photos of the road with the red painted numbers n’those are surveyors nails not casings in the tarmac.

Gun, I would point you towards a google search of a PO6 and its reputation amongst colectors and shooters, it gets some excellent write ups for is accuracy and usability! I have spent a while today checking out this gun, its history and its current market amongst collectors and was suprised to find a different picture than the one painted by the investigators/press
BM and going round a corner ….this has come up before and have posted one interpretation about this comment. We have all used the sign at Combe d’Ire as the base/start point .

BM does not have this constraint and one can view his comments as starting from Arnand. If you do this you can have a situation where SM passes BM on route Moulin between Arnand and the sign at the bottom of Combe d’Ire, also from BM perspective the road turns left at the sign to go up to the Car park (3km’s’distant) at Martinett. Again I have stated this before.

@MZT ……Hmmmmmm a Lugar PO6 for a Rabbit hunt ….think I will pass on that one !

6-7-2013 at 22:54:58

I will try again to ‘crack’ the BM statements. I would like to hear from (possibly through contacting him) the EXACT moment he DID phone (which is 15.48).

According to Jean-Marc Ducos with Le Parisien, it was LP that got the exclusive of PD. So I assume the LP article is CORRECT

JMD tweet: Jean-Marc Ducos ‏@jeanmarcduc 10 Sep #Tuerie de Chevaline. Exclusif dans Le Parisien-Aujourd’hui en France, le témoignage de Philippe, le randonneur qui a vu la scène de crime.


From LP

‘Pour moi, elle était morte. Quelques secondes plus tard, il redescend de quelques mètres pour contacter les pompiers. Le premier appel enregistré par les secours’

Now from the C4 docu we hear that PD and BM were 6-7 minutes busy. So it could be that after BM and PD meet, that it took another 6-7 minutes before PD actually called the rescue services!

If you add the few minutes BM lingering and stuff, you can end up with BM’s arrival at Martinet being at least 10 minutes PRIOR to 15.48. So 15.38.

Now comes the fun part. BM’s interview (remember that this was BEFORE the 15.15 pictures was known as fact. BM did not know of the 15.15. pictures) … just take in the following:


SYMONDS: You were going back to Annecy. It’s about half an hour isn’t it from the main road to, on a bike from the main road to the this place when this happened?
MARTIN: Yes, from the village of Chevaline, which is the nearest sort of small hamlet up to the car park, on a mountain bike, is about half an hour ride.

SYMONDS: Now one of the difficulties we understand the police are having is that several of the eye witness accounts differ as to timing that these vehicles passed. Were you able to give an exact time that you saw those vehicles come past you?
MARTIN: No, because , if you think back, obviously I was on a hill climb, on that last hill for half an hour, so just at some point you know, midway up the hill, the vehicle, and then a little bit later a motorcycle passed me, quite unremarkable events at the time.

SYMONDS: It’s a half hour time scale getting from bottom to top?

SYMONDS: So at some point in that half an hour, before you came across the scene, those vehicles came down. Were they being driven in a fast way, were they, was there anything suspicious about them at all?
MARTIN: No, nothing at all, just unremarkable.


So, what is here THE KEY WORD ????

‘Half an hour’

My God, they repeat and repeat ‘Half an Hour’ like it has to be made VERY VERY VERY clear. It is simply OVERDONE!


Probably to ‘show’ that BM was FAR AWAY from Martinet when the killing took place.

But … now comes the joker … the 1515 pictures!!!!

And this fact simply can NOT fit with the ‘Half an hour’ stuff from BM!!!

If BM says Chevaline-Martinet (max 4,5 km) = 30 minutes
Then at 15.08 he was in Chevaline
And at 15.18 he would have done 33% = 1,5 km … that would be at the SIGN

Now at 15.15 AH was still in Doussard, and AH NEVER could have been at the sign earlier than 15.18(!)


The thing is, if I take PD’s account + 1515 pictures + BM’s ‘half hour’ … it exposes TWEAKING on the part of BM

(and it could only be exposed AFTER the 1515 pictures surfaced, and by then it was too late for BM to alter/withdraw his tweaking)

– M

6-7-2013 at 22:58:03

@ All

Watched the Channel 4 documentary twice. In terms of photography, I think it’s much better than the French one we saw some time ago. Some pictures are beautiful indeed.

Otherwise, it has a lot of limitations. Some reconstructions are plain amateurish: for instance most of the “within the BMW” shots were produced using a left-hand drive vehicle, and the director didn’t even take the pain to use a computer mirror effect to make it look like the real thing. Such laxity on obvious matters make it impossible to take at face value other essential details, like the position of SM’s body or bike next to the car. In this respect, I have the feeling that all conclusions drawn from whether what is shown in this TV special fits or doesn’t fit previous police or media reports is just wishful thinking. Likewise, while comments are made about the total black-out on pictures of SM’s, no mention is made of the same factor about Saad’s wife and mother-in-law. It has to be explained by other factors than a mere respect of privacy. So does the the rather unusual disappearance of Bill Brett: not only did he not contribute to the documentary, but even his one and only BBC interview is totally left aside. Copyright issues? More need of privacy? All this doesn’t quite fit with the way the media work.

Meanwhile, we probably all want to congratulate FB for his very heartfelt testimony, in deep contrast with others who obviously cared less about the Al-Hillis than about their own image when being interviewed.

Other than that, only a couple assertions made in the show drew my attention as shedding possible light on new issues:
One is the statement that investigators (presumably British), while searching the Claygate residence, had ” found documents showing that, in the very last few days before the murders, Saad had gone to Geneva by himself, leaving his family behind at the camping site.” I wonder what type of document could possibly give evidence of this, and how such document could be found in Claygate???

The other is the mention that the famous two construction workers, often quoted before, had not only seen the BMW passing by them as it was driving up to Martinet but also had seen it “overtaking Sylvain Mollier on his bike”. It’s rather unclear in the over-dubbed edit whether this new piece of information comes directly from those workers, or is only reported as hear-say by the French journalist being interviewed. In any case, should this be correct, it does raise a few extra questions:
For -if true-, it implies the BMW must have passed SM’s bike right down there, and thus reached the lay-by at least 10 minutes before him..
But even more intriguing is the question of how could they possibly have identified SM? No public picture ever published, he was apparently wearing a helmet, even assuming the police would have later shown them a picture of him, it sounds fishy. Unless of course they somehow knew him.

6-7-2013 at 23:02:51


The ref is at the start of part2 of the program. I think they used the word “Documents” to describe what was found at the house that showed that SAH had visited the bank.

That is why I phrased my question that way, I had discounted Email and gone streight to a paper document. Yes you are correct it is my assumption that SAH had signed and dated a document at the bank, a copy of which was posted to him. Also possible would be a letter confirming a prearanged meeting.

You could well be right that it was infact an “electronic” document. Check out the program and see what you think.

6-8-2013 at 00:16:51


I am quite certain that those 30 minutes is simply totally wrong. It doesn’t fit with any of the other times we know and as I said early on, even I don’t go that slow on a bike.

We have discussed earlier what kind of bike Mollier used that day. Since Maillaud now claims that the bike was not suited for that road I think we can assume that he was using some kind of racing bike.


Whether lost in translation or due to speculation on the part of Ducos, I think the idea that the al-Hilli family passed Mollier doesn’t originates from the construction workers. Laurent Fillion-Robin has been interviewed several times and always said that they only saw the al-Hilli car.

The rest of Ducos’s description (in translation) of what happened at the crime scene I also do not believe.

(Though I must say, the al-Hilli family might have overtaken Mollier along the road, but since they are dead it is hard to know. Brett-Martin might of course know but he will never tell.)

6-8-2013 at 00:25:52


I am on a Blackberry and can’t access my timeline until tomorrow evening, so this is from memory.

BM time – My timeline has BM at the sign at 15:19, this was back calculated from his arrival at Martinett at 15:43 based on mountain bike speed climbing the Combe d’Ire(see previous discusion on this). Think I posted that that would/could place BM in Arnand at around the time the photos were taken at 15:15 so from Arnand I have him taking 28mins to arrive at Martinet.

Hope that helps you.

6-8-2013 at 01:17:45


NO i was not paid in any way .
but they did ask to use family photos ..which i refused .

6-8-2013 at 01:22:00


Effata ! Héra

6-8-2013 at 03:58:12

Hello everyone,
I finally managed to get here . Had problems with the previous thread link and so had to use other ways to get here.
Nine months have passes and we are still going in circles…
I wonder if the time will ever come where I ‘ll post a relief that the case is sealed.
I have been following the Ibragim Todashev’s case & found it mind blowing too.

6-8-2013 at 05:27:13

@Max , @See_Bee

First time posting here – though I’ve been reading this blog with interest and posting at CM now and then (hope no one minds – barely time enough to interject in one place – as much as I have been tempted to put a word or two here as well). But the documentary tweaked my interest again, especially with the 6-7 minute tid-bit added by Phillipe Bossy.

I have a few questions of people here who obviously put in lots of effort to reconstruct time lines:

1. With regard to the testimony of the builders – Laurent Fillion-Robin specifically put the time for the BMW originally somewhere between 2;30 and 3PM, I believe. later, I think I saw the time move to “a little after 3PM”. How did people here explain at the time the obvious contradiction with the 3:15PM photo time at Arnand? is the assumption that SAH drove first to Arnand after passing the builders, took photo, then reversed to go back up the Combe d’Ire? wasn’t here when these discussions took place so I don’t know.

2. brett martin in his interview was very clear and specific about him not being the one who made the 15:48PM call. If Phillip Bossy made that call how could the timeline possibly work out, if we all agree that WBM could not possibly have arrived on the scene before 15:38, as See_Bee states (a time I tend to agree with, assuming the shots were fired and completed at around 15:35PM, giving WBM just 3 minutes to arrive (meaning there’s no way he wouldn’t have heard the shots either – must have been that close)? given all the things WBM claims to have done – moved body, tended to Zainab, shut off engine, try to call (unsuccessfully), come back down, meet PB, go back up etc. To which we must now add 6-7 minutes! this puts any call by PB after 4PM which I believe concurs with what LP quoted in the first account from PD. So, either WBM lied, or, if he didn’t, someone else made that call and it wasn’t PB. So who?

3. There seems to be willingness to accept the 15:15PM photo time stamp as a fait accompli. Given the multiple re-writes by EM, the lack of willingness to tell the public anything and the weird reason given for not showing said photo (“morbid”!), should this time not be taken with a grain of salt, right along with all the other grains? I know there are so few facts that can be believed in this case, but this particular one really stands out – suddenly such accuracy in disclosure, when almost everything else remained shrouded in fog.

4. WBM stated he did not make that 3:48 call in full knowledge that the french police stated he did. So there seems to be willingness on his part to contradict the french police story. max above points out WBM’s insistence on 1/2 hour for the bike ride. So yes, it is quite possible we can believe almost nothing of WBM’s account. Not the timings, not the sightings of the car + MC, not the lack of reception, not him moving SM’s body to his last resting place. If so, and given that now PB says he practically came upon WBM at the scene (though in the documentary there was no mention of that ‘almost hitting him”, curiously enough) , in what universe is WBM not a suspect? EM, so keen to talk and perhaps arrest Ziad, why such total trust in the one individual who was at the scene and clearly had the opportunity to do the killing (even if we don’t know the motive….). That’s the part that doesn’t add up. If WBM lied about so much, and if so, it must be obvious to EM, why was he ever allowed to return to England and no one in authority has pointed a finger in his direction ever since?

Hope people don’t mind all these questions, especially as you have no doubt gone over them many times before. The above though goes to the key puzzles that kept me interested in this case till now. I am really curious to hear from the good detectives here…

6-8-2013 at 08:12:49

So BM went round the bend did he? This is maybe no time and place for jokes, but he is not the only one who went round the bend that day.

Marlin, anyone interested in this case and wish to talk about it, is welcome here.

I will now disappear for at least a week. I have a replacement admin (she’s a very pretty girl, so guys, do not write nasty things, she may just die of shock) who will check in each evening to see that no messages get stuck in ‘spam’. I will be otherwise engaged.

Have a nice commenting time.

6-8-2013 at 08:56:11

@Marilyn Z. Tomlins
6-7-2013 at 20:55:18

That would certainly fit. The lone gunman is a local nutter ergo EM is deflecting attention from the local community and personages in the hope of flushing him out?

Playing dumb in the hope it will enrage the perpetrator to come out to claim the distorted ‘glory’ for his deeds. To give himself away in some way. Is that how you see it working?

6-8-2013 at 10:01:33


1. I think that the timings of Laurent Fillion-Robin et. al were believed to be true until the police released the news about the pictures in Arnand (15:15), which was after quite a while into the investigation.
Then it seems probable that the timings were wrong, perhaps due to too much drinking during lunch time (Lynda) or they simply never looked at their watches but just estimated the time roughly afterwards.

2. I think that Brett-Martin has been on a slippery slope for a long time.
With Bossy’s new statement Brett-Martin’s story gets more and more incredible. To fit Brett-Martin in along Route the Forestiere, and not been overtaken by the al-Hilli car, and not been very close or at Le Martinet at the shootings are getting increasingly difficult. I think we can be pretty sure that Bossy made that call. Brett-Martin’s 30 minutes story I believe, as said above, is bogus.

3. I tend to believe E-Maillaud when he is very specific, as he as been with these pictures.
To lie about such a thing, that can be so easily checked, would be extremely stupid. If there someday will some kind of commission looking at this case and they will see that the prosecutor lied it will be the end of his career and perhaps not only that.
On the other hand when Maillaud is very vague, as with these ONF cars, MCs etc., he can always say, I didn’t believe that myself, or I didn’t mean it that way, you have misunderstood me etc. As he will probably also say about his favourite pistes afterwards.

4. I think that Brett-Martin has been very particular not to say things that he knew could be proven wrong. He knew of course that he had not made that call and he knew that that could be very easily checked, since these emergency centers register all the calls. So even if Maillaud did get it all wrong, Brett-Martin had to tell his story. As Max said above, the problem for Brett-Martin are these Arnand photos at 15:15, since they were not known when Brett-Martin made his statement.
As you say in any normal crime investigation Brett-Martin had been one of the prime suspects, and I believe he was in was in Max’s initial theory.
Maillaud made him a hero the day after the murder. This promotion can not be based on any knowledge from the investigation but must have had other motives ot reasons.
So why he was allowed to travel back to England only Maillaud can give a answer to, and he will probably only shrug his shoulders and say “It is not my job to throw malicious accusations at this hero…”

6-8-2013 at 10:02:57


PS. I forgot to add, please don’t eat yourself up. 😉

6-8-2013 at 10:19:38

Musing on BM:

– First he clearly states a 30 minute(!) drive ch-martinet

(placing him far from the killing)


(so BM could in principle tell whatever he wanted)

– He ‘invents’ MC and 4×4 and plces them ‘halfwaish’

(again to ‘inject X’ and placing himself far from Martinet)

This holds up, even with the PD 1548 phonecall, UNTIL the 1515 pictures surface

So … I could simply suggest BM was ALREADY AT MARTINET … and there would be no way to disproves this (with the current facts known)

So … BM might as well be X

– M

6-8-2013 at 10:52:47

@ See_Bee, 6-7-2013 at 23:02:51

I have now reviewed the relevant passage of the documentary. The narrator says: “Surrey police start with a forensic search of the Al-Hilli house. They find documents showing that just days before his murder Saad Al-Hilli left his family at a campsite by Lake Annecy and travelled alone to Geneva.”

I think this is a case of journalistic licence. What kind of “document” could possibly show that he had left his family at a campsite etc.? Perhaps a diary entry: “Note to self: Leave family at a campsite etc. etc.”? I reckon what police found was some sort of letter from the bank indicating that he had been there, or had been expected there, and the remainder is information gleaned later from other sources.

Further, I would assume that his appointment at the bank had something to do with his late father’s will, that he needed to show them original, notarized documents. If they found a letter from the bank at his home, it probably was from the bank’s legal department – it would be highly unusual for an appointment with a client advisor or anything like that to be made using a conventional letter. In this day and age, even “private” banks mostly work with e-banking, and written communication from the bank tends to be a PDF document in one’s e-banking message inbox. Legal departments still work with paper documents, though, in order to avoid the legal pitfalls associated with electronic communication.

6-8-2013 at 11:18:09

@ Max

Some random speculation.

Q: Why didn’t the makers of that C4 documentary not interview WBM, and why was that juicy bit about Bossy assuming that WBM was the killer and attempting to punch him edited out at the last minute? (I strongly assume that it was edited out at the last minute, because that scene must have been in the transcript that the producers disseminated ahead of broadcasting and that was extensively quoted in the press.)
A: Same answer to both questions, WBM is massively fed up with being regarded as a potential suspect, in however oblique a manner. I would bet a case of champagne that this juicy bit was only edited out because WBM had a solicitor lean on C4, threatening them with a libel action.

6-8-2013 at 12:02:37

A long while back Oui discussed the timings of the calls, was the first attempt by Brett Martin picked up by the network, just an emergency call and not voice information, this could put the 15:48 as being correct.

He then decided to get on his bike and go for help as he had no signal, meets Bossy in his car, Bossy turned the car around in case an emergency exit was needed, women remain in the back of the car.

They walk back up to the parking, do whatever for 6/7 minutes then Bossy makes the emergency call, could have been at the parking or after walking back to the car. As discussed different providers have different signal strengths.

Please read this:

He met the cyclist a little before 4pm, so he couldn’t have made a call at 15:48. Especially if the two of them had been on the scene for 6/7 minutes.

Unless of course someone else attempted to make a call, but the cops would surely have that telephone number. Come to think of it wouldn’t they have the telephone number of anyone who contacted them. So, if it is PB’s phone then PB it is at 15:48, -1 minute talking, -1 minute walking, -7 minutes at the scene, -1 minute walking = PB and BM meeting nearer 15:38.

BM said about 5 minutes on the scene, 15:33, -3 minutes behind Mollier, -1 minute to meet PB arrival 15:29, what time were the shots reported to be heard ?

@Eugene, we agree on the docu, interesting but inaccurate, we know that but most people watching wouldn’t.

From that there appeared to be two gunman, wearing balaclavas and head coverings, one had a paunch ! One hand gun and one large automatic weapon.

The car was left hand drive, which as I said changes the dynamics completely, even the description of the road was turned into a forest track, and so on.

Good in parts.

6-8-2013 at 12:42:16

@ All

Let’s try to make a temporary record assessment of both the official investigation and of our own effort toward solving this case, over nine months after the killings.
It’s a two-sided coin.

If we consider French and British police are still officially completely lost in between numerous possible motives and likely perpetrators, along with us -private commentators- spinning around various theories, different timelines and subsequent suspicion of testimonies, it ought to be called a total failure.
If we otherwise decipher this whole situation as a well-conceited effort to lead public attention astray, for whatever reasons good or bad, I guess it should be called remarkably successful. To the extent that many are apparently now willing to just give up further research as futile, and simply blame those crimes on the useful “lone psychopath”, so hard to identify.

We can certainly not exclude such an unlikely account, precisely for lack of reliable public evidence. But if so, I would tend to think the anonymous “local nutter” involved must be the smartest lunatic we’ve known in a long, long time. For not only did he/she safely escape from the crime scene, but he/she wonderfully succeeded in making everybody -law enforcement and bloggers alike- look for pink elephants (or gray British SUVs).
Very clever.

6-8-2013 at 12:57:56


As said above, the service provider, the emergency center and the police all know very well who made that emergency call and from which telephone.

I don’t believe that either Brett-Martin or Bossy would make the mistake to point at the wrong person.

6-8-2013 at 13:01:47


I would like that case of champagne, at least if it was a good brand, but sadly enough I believe that you are right (even though I believe that Brett-Martin *should* be regarded as a suspect, and the most disliked witness in the history of crime.)

6-8-2013 at 13:09:30

In at least one way has E-Maillaud’s strategy and the “vow of silence” been succesful so far.

Since we know so very little about Sylvain Mollier himself, any journalist writing about Chevaline or any filmmaker making a documentary is forced to concentrate on the al-Hilli family since there is so little to say about Mollier, and not even a blurred photograph. A documentary about Mollier would be 5 minutes long.

I believe this has been E-Maillaud’s and Thierry Schutz’s plan from the beginning.

6-8-2013 at 13:54:52


I have posted my timeline and comments from the end of April through May.
(I am refering you to my previous posts as I am using a Blackberry to post for a few days and don’t have access to my data)

I have an open mind and am open to compelling arguments and new “facts”that can improve/narrow down the senarios that this case throws up.
I have changed my view about the actions of one of the motorcycles since starting to post on this blog and with regard to the probable movements of the SAH BMW between 14:30 and 15:19. I have also covered the builders in privious posts in detail.

My opinion of BM has changed as the timeline tightened during the period from September 12 to Jan13. The interview he gave, IMHO, was to send a message to the perpertrators of the crime and in all probability he was coached by French and UK authorities as to its limited detail and content. The public message was. I saw nothing and am not a threat to you (the purportrators).

Currently I accept the BM statements, there are no conflict in my timeline. Max. Has made a lot of the 30 mins statement of BM, and quite rightly so, however when viewed with the transcript the sense of the statement was BM agreeing with the interviewer that its takes about 30mins from Chevaline, to which BM agrees but does not elaborate. (This was a pre set question IMHO). As the builders in route Chevaline did not see BM pass the assumption is that he approached Combe d’Ire from Arnand and route Moulin The timings you have from my previous posts.

I origionally thought that BM would not have time to complete the actions at the Martinett Carpark that he illuded to within the times that were put in the public domain. My unease with the time lead me to recreate the actions undertaken wiha stopwatch, i was so supprised that I not only completed the task but had time in hand, that I repeated it 2 more times with similar results. So I am firmly of the belief that BM was able to do what he said he did.

The 15.48 call and the 7 to 8 mins at the scene. We know that BM went for help we know that BM met PDJ/PB and returned to the scene where they (PDJ/PB) spent time surveying the scene. One would have assumed that the call was made at the first oportunity or when PDJ/PB got a signal on his cell phone. I still have that call being made at 15:48!

I do not buy BM as the shooter! Take a step back and think about it. BM on his mountain bike, lycra shorts and all packing a Luger PO6 and at least 2 spare magazines. BM comits the crime, hides the gun within a kilometer of the scene, manages to ensure he left no DNA at the scene, Managed to fire at least 21 sho s and end up with no detectable traces on his person of having fired the gun and did not continue to kill to make his escape. Then he is able to convince Eric Clousou to release him and let him leave France, conduct a rigged TV interview has the balls to return into the clutches of inspector Clousou for further questioning and is again able to convince Frances best to let him walk free.
EM must have had a reason to let BM keep his freedom – i.e. They belived him!
EM has, for reasons only known to him and his team, sought to direct public opinion in various directions. I strongly hold the view that he has done this deliberately and for reasons that only he and his team know for sure and we are left to guess at. One could reasonabaly assume that he has done this to give the impression that to the perpertrators of the crime that the investigation was going in one direction, when infact it was following other leads, buying time and opportunity for the investigation. The 15:15 photo time is important in so much as it places the SAH family in Arnand by the Post Office and put with the infomation from the builders allows one to assume with a degree of certainty which roads were taken between 14:30 and 15:17/19. Photos or no photos SAH and SM were killed at 15:30 with at least 21 shots at Martinett carpark.

The fact that EM and his team have been painted as incompetent will be of little concern to EM as he will do his job as he sees fit no matter what public image he cuts.

I still find Max’s. mask compelling and have not discounted this senario, although it is not at the top, It is also complicated and these things tend to have simpler solutions.

I have not discounted SM as a target (either individualy or jointly with SAH) and am intrigued by the denials by EM and the lack of information eminating from the Mollier / PM camp. I am also supprised by EM body language when talking abouSM family involvement.

My conundrum is who was indeed the target.-I have in order
1) SAH 2) SAH & SM 3) SM.
My head tells me 1), However my “gut” tells me that the Shooter(s) waited for SM to arrive so I have to keep 2) and 3) even if EM. Is telling us that SM and his familly are French Saints!

6-8-2013 at 14:09:06


“EM must have had a reason to let BM keep his freedom – i.e. They believed him!”

No, I don’t think they believed him. I think they were told to leave this “old RAF man” alone. For whatever reasons.

The investigators had no chance in one or two days to conclude that this man, previously totally unknown to them (?), was not in some way involved in the killings. That is totally impossible.

“The fact that EM and his team have been painted as incompetent will be of little concern to EM as he will do his job as he sees fit no matter what public image he cuts. ”

I think his body language as well some of his words in that documentary tell otherwise. I think he is becoming increasingly disturbed by the fact that so many do not believe him.

He even slanders novel writers. If Marilyn was not on leave I would ask her what she thinks about that. 🙂

6-8-2013 at 14:19:04

@Max and all timeline creators

When I use my own little timeline-tool I also find it impossible that Bossy did not also meet this mysterious ONF-car and the MC on the road, if he arrived at Le Martinet 6-7 minutes before he made the call (15:48). He should have met them 600-800 meter after the sign (Chevaline).

6-8-2013 at 14:30:59

@Lynda Re: documentary

We are like the gourmet at a restaurant who immediately sees that the chef has not used all the correct ingredients or been a little careless when he stirred the sauce. So even if the taste is quiet, ok we spit it out. Blaeeh! 🙂

6-8-2013 at 14:45:04

Have no problem with you opinions v BM ….its a healthy discusion point. I do disagree with your view that you put forward about BM and do not consider him to be a candidate for shooter.

I think EM is under pressure from his superiors ( read Political presure too if you
like, my comment was aimed at his facial expressions when talking about the SM family.

Although EM might not have a high regard for novalists, someone close to the investigation has been throwing titbits to the press hound, namely one JMD. Spent a good part of last night reading Tweets from JMD ….looks like he is the prefered conduit for information and misinformation.

6-8-2013 at 14:54:15


I am not sure what you mean by my view about Brett-Martin, but I actually don’t think he is a probable candidate for the killer. But he could be involved in many other ways.

6-8-2013 at 14:57:42

Maybe Brett-Martin was envious of Mr al-Hilli’s house in Claygate while he, an English former fighter aircraft pilot, had to live in that scruffy little house in Brighton. 😉

6-8-2013 at 15:21:59

Interesting reading about Pierre Morange:

He seems to be a busy man, with a lot of enemies.

6-8-2013 at 15:26:28

Your Comments

6-8-2013 at 15:51:04

SeeBee, do you understand French ?

Our Bossy (PD) initial exclusive interview linked above, says he got there a little before 16:00, arriving anything between 6 and 10 minutes BEFORE 15:48, is not a little before 4pm, is it ?

Also, Peter Allen commented that 20 minutes after the photo they were dead, that statement can only be because it was at 15:35 or there abouts that WBM arrived on the scene.

@Lars, months ago some of us said that the BBC interview was a ‘I didn’t see anything’ .

I think he probably did, as for Bossy, that interview will have been allowed by the investigating team, he is a witness, not to the event but one of the first on the scene who dealt with the first witness, looked into the car, tapped the childs hand and called the emergency services.

@Lars, Brighton is commuter belt, work in London, live by the sea, he bought it in 1997, 16 years ago he was about 37, he left the RAF when ?

6-8-2013 at 16:00:31

So Pierre Morange became enemies with

1) Gérard Le Bec his old political friend and mentor, speaking only trough lawyers

2) the Péricard family not on speaking terms; Michel Péricard was “maire” in Saint-Germain-en-Laye, political friend and Morange worked as his deputy

3) his ex-wife Véronique Goens-Morange, who accused him in a letter to the “procureur de Versailles” of fraud

So my conclusion is to avoid being a friend of M. Morange, the chance seems pretty big that you will end up as enemies for life

6-8-2013 at 16:05:25


I believe Brett-Martin left RAF in 1989.

6-8-2013 at 16:11:54

I was very suspisious of BM presence to start with but now I have accepted what he says accepting EM has controlled that information. So BM is parked as far as I am concerened.

SM is anothere question though, I am still looking for links as the lack of information and the Political links of the larger familly, make him as interesting to me as SAH. PM and links to the ex governing party, and the rumers around funding/sponsership are interesting to say the least.

Re timming, I will have access to my timeline tonight and will post after I have checked the timmings. I belive that I posted on this very question in April

6-8-2013 at 18:07:54

re: 25 bullets.

Nous avons déjà beaucoup parlé sur les 25 balles tirées lors du massacre.

En partant du principe que l’arme est un P06, nous avons donc, 3 chargeurs + 1 balle dans le canon.

Correcte ?

Est-ce une situation normale ?

3 chargeurs ? – 2 c’est possible mais 3 ?
1 balle dans le canon ? – Louche.

Cette observation mérite d’être étudié de nouveau.

6-8-2013 at 18:27:21

Je ne sais rien sur les armes, mais j’ai un minimum de bon sens.
Qui chargerait son arme avec une balle dans le canon, puis enlèverait le chargeur et le rechargerait avec une autre balle ?

6-8-2013 at 18:53:59

@Bacchus, the latest docu said there were 21 bullets, here is Peters link to the Channel 4 programme that was aired Thursday last:

6-8-2013 at 18:58:21

Who would present him-/herself with a profession he/she had 25 years ago!

I might present myself as a researcher at the University of Stockholm then. 😉

answer: BM

6-8-2013 at 18:58:27

“Do you speak French?”- its my 4th language, so enough to be dangerous, but as you know, I need help from time to time!

Hmmmm……”Link above ” …..I see no link ?!

Some more background reading v PM and his ex wifes /thier phantom employee scam

6-8-2013 at 19:16:11

More reading about Pierre Morange:

Note: « Il a fait cette demande de détention dans le cadre du tir sportif », révèle une source proche du dossier.

6-8-2013 at 20:41:24

I think PB said that Mr. Zaid al-Hilli works for a golf club, I hope everybody will be happy to hear that also Pierre Morange has been involved in golf club affairs (

6-8-2013 at 20:44:02
6-8-2013 at 21:55:44

@SeeBee, it was Le Parisien link. But of course you have to scroll back and read in on the comments previously posted.

Many of us don’t, few the same day, least of all weeks ago, referring to your April timeline, so we all end up repeating ourselves for new arrivals.

“Note: « Il a fait cette demande de détention dans le cadre du tir sportif », révèle une source proche du dossier”.

Lars, there are very strict rules governing small firearms, you will no doubt remember my friend and encounter with the Luger.

At his home guns are kept in a combination locked box, which is cemented into his property, when he takes guns to the range, they are in a sealed box in the boot of his car and not operational, something is either removed or added to ensure that even if stolen they are not operational.

So, if Pierre Morange has a licence to have a gun it will be under such ‘sportif’ regulation. Whilst I am sure he has been pulling the strings to help the Schutz family avoid the press pack, I’m convinced it is nothing to do with him.

6-8-2013 at 22:00:45

@ All

I think it’s about time to consider yet another very unusual element in the early hours of the Chevaline investigation. Better late than never.
Namely, the ” Zeena is missing ” incident. If I remember well, we were told that the Gendarmerie soon found out, presumably from people at the camping site, that the Al-Hillis were vacationing with their TWO daughters. One was lying by the car, badly injured but luckily put out of harm’s way by having been set in a recovery position by the former RAF William Brett. The other was missing. Anyone would have jumped to the conclusion that she had been abducted by the assailant(s) or taken hostage as a human shield. Anyone, including Inspector Clouseau. In fact, several press releases did mention, back then, this was the initial assumption from the Gendarmerie. Thus, with an innocent 4-year-old in the hands of killer X (nutter or not), what was then and there the only sensible thing to do?
The answer is easy.

The “Alerte Enlèvement” French procedure, based on the famous Amber Alert in the USA, is very codified, yet usually applied asap (within only a few hours) when police have reasons to assume a minor has been abducted and is faced with clear and present danger. It has been successful in quite a few cases. The Prosecutor can start at the snap of a finger. More about it on this link:

Actually, not using this procedure could have been later blamed on law enforcement, had anything bad actually happened to her. Well, in Zeena’s case, it obviously was not applied at all, nor even considered. Otherwise, we would have known. So why not? With the best of my abilities, the only reason I can think of is.. that investigators knew right away she hadn’t been abducted at all. And felt no need to give unnecessary extra publicity to her “later discovery”. Bad enough to have to come up with a likely rationale to explain why she had -officially- remained so long prostrated under her mother’s body (child psychology, PTSD) and why nobody had located her there in the meantime (forensics rules, freezing the crime scene).

The hidden agenda still eludes me, but to me, in a nut shell, something doesn’t smell good here.
What do you guys think?

6-8-2013 at 22:01:43

Ok … suppose PM/TS wanted to get rid of SM (reason unknown), they contract local/UK biker BM (connected through biking to TS/SM???) to do the dirty job (SM bike versus BM bike is a good match). TS/PM set up the trap, sent SM to Martinet (getting lost … lol;) where BM is waiting in ambush. SM arrives at Martinet but AH was there already. BM kills SM but f**u** the rest. Massacre!!! BM tells his prepared story of MC and 4×4. But PM/TS have the problem of the Massacre. After some days pressure is put on EM to ‘bury the whole case’. EM goes to TS/CS on the 12th to ‘talk’, goes on the 13th to London, just before BM gives a staged interview. The ‘Half hour’ reference is repeated 4x to show the public that BM never ever could have done it. The MC plus 4×4 which BM coined was part of the first TS/PM/BM plan to cover’ the SM killing.

The SM ‘piste’ is shutdown. A ‘vow of silence’ is created. EM looks for the AH killer in the UK … but will not find him, and will in the end default to the ‘Nutter’ … case closed;)

– M

6-8-2013 at 22:27:27

Btw, it IS saturday evening … and I had so wine. So I’ll be excused;)

(tiny detail though: plz DO remember that BV once brought up ‘SM as target’ but was seemingly ‘overruled’ by EM who kept persisting that the answer lies in the UK)

– M

6-8-2013 at 22:42:45

@Eugene, I agree and don’t, they put up heat seeking equipment, this wouldn’t have been viewed as a usual kidnapping, wayward parent, child snatcher, I think they thought that she may well have been hiding, not taken.

What would be the point of taking a child if you’ve killed the very people who would be prepared to bargain for her, had it turned out to be a kidnap for other purposes, rather extravagant, me thinks.

@Max, this case is going to be ‘classified’ before The Tour de France passes by, they have just over a month.

And when it’s all over, some new ‘evidence/information’ will surface and off we go again.

@Lars, I have a problem with the ‘lost’ thing, EM and others have said he took a wrong turn, not lost, he could never have been lost, so what SM did was divert from the route that TS gave him. The word is ‘trompe’, wrong or deceived. So I am back where I started SM was meeting someone and it wasn’t the Al-Hillis.

@SeeBee, with your fourth language, please read the French reporting, it is often very different to what has been presented in the English speaking press.

It is the ‘lost in translation’ that has added to the conspiracy theories.

@Lars, too tired to look tonight, do you know when Roger Mollier was born, Sylvains father, I know he died in 2011, SM was in charge of selling the family home, apparently, Suzanne his mother in a nursing home due to her decreased cognitive levels.

I suppose he would have been in his late 70’s, early 80’s – so not old enough to have fought in the Second World War. I ask because would he have been in possession of a Swiss Army issue weapon ? He certainly would have been eligible for National Service and maybe even fought in North Africa.

6-8-2013 at 23:12:45


Roger Mollier was born in 1933. (he was thus not the founder of the rugby club as some newspapers claimed, since that club is much older)

I don’t believe this case is so simple, that just because a person like PM had connections with certain people, makes him a suspect, hardly. You have to puzzle all little bits of information together to get the full picture. That is what I am trying to do.

6-8-2013 at 23:14:38

I guess Roger Mollier could have fought in North Africa (Algeria) or in Indochina (Vietnam).

6-8-2013 at 23:21:08


To me that “lost” idea, or “wrong turn” idea, is just simply stupid. In that sort of landscape, with these high mountains all around you, how can you make a wrong turn. I don’t believe that even I, who has only been in the neighbourhood once in my life, could get lost there.

And nobody has been able to explain Mollier’s intended route, if he was “lost”.

6-8-2013 at 23:27:45


To me the problem is that it is smelling from all corners of this investigation, so it is hard to know which particular smell to follow. I still believe, like I guess FB does, that there is a confederacy of dunces involved also, and that could also create a lot of odours, but then there is probably also something really rotten hidden somewhere, the question is only where.

6-8-2013 at 23:31:51

@Lynda & Eugene

I think you both have a point about the kidnap theory. Just makes the actions of the gendarmerie stranger.

6-9-2013 at 00:22:31

Lynda 6-8-2013 at 18:53:59

15,25 and now 21 = 3 chargeurs.

Is there possible ?

6-9-2013 at 01:06:23


If PD is not PD
Perhaps P06 is not P06

“Toutefois, sauf dans les films, il est peu courant de se balader avec un pistolet et trois chargeurs.”

BACCHUS say to me that a new cloud of smoke coming soooon …

6-9-2013 at 01:27:52


Effata ! Héra

6-9-2013 at 07:43:31

@Lars, I think the interpretation of EM’s lost is what is wrong, I don’t think he said lost.

I’m trying to say that he diverted from the route that TS gave him, in other words he wasn’t supposed to go that way, to TS/CS/EM he took another route, a wrong turn.

So, even the reporting about Roger Mollier is incorrect, too young to be a WW2 hero, and the rugby club is older than him. In the latter he was probably an active member. He appears to have been active in the community, someone else who is as well is TS.

I’m questioning this only because we had a synopsis of Khadim in the documentary, he and Roger died in 2011.

Do you recall one of Molliers brothers saying that the family hadn’t been interviewed, or at least for only an hour, he also said about the divorce and how it had been costly, SM being very happy with the way things were going ‘now’ ?

@Max, yes I do recall Vinneman, pointing a finger towards Mollier, watch any of the press conferences, off the cuff interviews with EM, BV shows no emotion, no agreement or even looking at the boss.

BV could well be someone who might eventually challenge the status quo.

@Lars, does any of the information on this case cross reference ? I think Bacchus and his cloud of smoke is correct.

6-9-2013 at 10:10:56

@ admin/lynda
FYI Posts made yeasterday from @10:52:47/11:18:09/12:02:37/12:42:16/12:57:56/13:09:30 were not visable to me on the blog at 13:54 until 23:30!(Accessed via blackberry).

@ lynda
I do refer back to posts made on this site and find them most useful, indeed I have a transcript of all posts made on the site indexed for ease of referance.

@ Lynda
I can assure you that I do read the French press when time allows, and do find that established jounalist are more objective than UK press.

As I have posted previously, and having read a lot more about JMD yesterday, my belief is now even firmer that he is a conduit for the authorities in France. He does not appear to be an investigating jounalist who analysis his own findings rather he simply posts the message of the day. Given the content, the source or sources have to be from within the wider investigating team. The claim that he had access to the French Police report, would as I understand it, be an illegal act! Is he credible, I think not!

Agreed that PM does have a lot of enimies ……prehaps more interesting might be who are his friends and allies, what is his power base in the UMP?
The fact that EM states that SM side is a dead end makes me want to look deeper!

6-9-2013 at 10:58:03

@ All

Regarding that “police report,” I don’t know what they look like in France, but I have seen a few German ones, and I’m not even a journalist 😉

The investigation file on the Chevaline murders must be running into several thousands of pages by now. For example, 800 witnesses have been interviewed, that’s 800 x 4-6 pages already. It is a growing document, added to daily, that must be distributed in a timely manner to dozens of investigators, the juges d’instruction, the prosecutor etc.

In Germany at least, whilst a paper file is kept as well, every scrap of material is scanned and processed with OCR technology in order to turn it into a searchable PDF file. It is this PDF file that everybody involved in the investigation works with. These PDFs are disseminated via email and they are not even password-protected. Once a week or so, any fresh material is added to the investigation’s master PDF file. In the meantime, that fresh material is circulated as separate PDF files.

At least 95% of the investigation file will be worthless, statements of witnesses saying that they didn’t see anything, forensic reports stating that no usable clues were found, plus communications with the labs, bills for lab work etc. etc. The single most interesting part of any such file is always the weekly executive summary prepared by the lead investigator, a kind of “here is where we stand, here is what it all means” summary.

To me, this alleged document about the “dynamics of the crime scene” sounds like one of these summaries prepared by the lead investigator. I don’t think that any forensic scientist would be prepared to stick out his neck in such a manner, offering a wide-ranging multidisciplinary interpretation of the forensic facts rather than sticking to those facts. Now, could Ducos have seen that (PDF) document? I think it’s not unreasonable to assume that somebody may have bcc’ed him on the email distribution list 😉

6-9-2013 at 11:15:00


I find your comments on Ducos interesting. I will certainly keep an eye on that man in the future.

Morange’s friends: I am not so certain that they are so many, not close ones anyhow, for reasons mentioned above. I often find words as “controversé” and “colère” in connection with him. But he is certainly a man of action, a doer, and probably therefore pretty popular in his community. And he certainly has a lot of powerful contacts and allies. He was totally unknown to me before this Chevaline case, but having read about him now, I see that he is not just some petty local politician. He could probably call some minister up (at least in the previous administration) and the minister would listen, even though they might not be personal friends.

6-9-2013 at 12:43:34

Just to be controversial, let me put forward a different explanation of the “vow of silence” on the SM side of the case. As a seasoned, pugnacious politician, Morange will know a great deal about how to handle the media.

WBM didn’t, and look where that ignorance has got him. WBM probably allowed himself to be persuaded into giving that BBC interview, hoping that he would be left alone afterwards. Instead, the opposite thing happened. His interview raised more questions than it answered, he himself came across as being untruthful – blink, blink – and some bloggers like ourselves even consider him a potential suspect. Many or most people would hate to be in that situation. Googling his own name cannot be a pleasant experience for him. With interest in the case showing no signs of abating, WBM must realize that this interest in his own person is not going to go away, either. If his own account of his role be truthful, or nearly-truthful, he got a seriously raw deal. Imagine: Through sheer bad luck, you find yourself first-responder at the scene of a terrible crime, you do everything you can to help, you afterwards even throw a bone to the media pack by giving an interview – but, instead of earning praise or grudging respect, you suddenly have a whole bunch of conspiracy theorists going over every aspect of your life with a fine-toothed comb and portraying you as the villain of the piece.

Now, if I were a member of the Mollier / Schutz families, I would hate something like this to happen to my own family. Thus, I should do exactly the same thing that they have done: take a vow of silence, don’t give the media *anything* at all. No statements, no interviews, no photos, nothing. It is a solid strategy and the C4 documentary proves that it works. Apart from some second-hand rumours spouted by a British journalist, the makers of that documentary had zilch on SM, either good or bad.

Maybe, just maybe, Morange has also leaned on Eric Clouseau, or had somebody else lean on him, to keep the Mollier / Schutz families out of the media limelight. However, this would be purely a matter of media management. Eric Clouseau cannot tell investigators not to follow up certain leads, he cannot suppress evidence, he cannot dictate the overall strategy of the investigation. What he can and does do, though, is to point the media away from the Mollier / Schutz families and towards the AH family. That is not a nice thing to do, but maybe his reasoning is that the living need more consideration than the dead.

6-9-2013 at 14:15:43


I would say that Brett-Martin made a big mistake with that interview. He told a very elaborated story, with some very minute details in it, but also with obvious large holes. You don’t have to be a “conspiracy theorist” to notice that, just an ordinary crime investigator or an interested person with common sense.

He should either had done, just like Bossy just did, told a very simple story with no details, or be prepared to answer questions about other details that he didn’t care to mention.

That mistake doesn’t make him a criminal or even a liar, but personally I don’t believe that he is telling the whole truth whatever that may be, and I think he well deserves the epithet “the most disliked witness in the history of crime”.

Regarding the “vow of silence” I believe, as I said above, that it is partly succesful, since it has made the stories about Chevaline very biased towards the al-Hilli family.

But a “vow of silence” is a double-edged weapon, as I think many politicians have experienced. It will succed if the story is soon forgotten or nothing new crops up, but if that is not the case it might hit back at you with doubled force. A “vow of silence” will always also start to raise suspicions. Why does this have to be secret?

Whoever came up with that strategy in the Chevaline-case based it probably on the assumption that the case would soon be forgotten. That has however been proven wrong. I think that part of the Schutz family is very well aware of that and troubled by it. Even E-Maillaud is obviously troubled since he called media liars because they said that there are problems in Schutz family (note: *not* that they been involved in any foul play).

So I think that the “vow of silence”-strategy is, and will be, a failure in the end. Sooner or later a photograph of Sylvain Mollier will pop up, or someone who knew him ( maybe a fat bastard 🙂 ) will start talking.

I think you can compare this to two other cases that we all are familiar with, the Marèchal murder and the Mercier murder. I think that anyone who has seen the documentaries about these cases, or read articles about them, can but feel sympathy for the widow of Marèchal and the father of Gregory Mercier.

I thus think it would have been a much better strategy, to show some nice family pictures of Sylvain Mollier and Thierry Schutz hugging each other, and let Claire and Lydie say some well choosen words about Sylvain. Whoever was in control of the damage control department did however not trust Claire or Lydie to say what they were supposed to say, and there are perhaps nu such photos.

If Morange is working in the damage control department or in some other department I don’t know, but I don’t believe that the interest in him will go away because of this “vow of silence”-strategy, on the contrary.

6-9-2013 at 14:30:38

@Peter, I’ve said as much before.

Pierre Morange must be spinning that another mysterious death has happened within his orbit.

I also think you are spot on about WBM, we’re all quick to accuse, I am gooing to assume that he is innocent of any crime or involvement, the BBC interview would have been pre-planned, pre-rehearsed, pre-everything in fact, that is quite ordinary.

So, now we have an innocent, doing his best to aid the injured, being accused, I wouldn’t be very pleased about that had it been me.

I bet everyday he wishes he’d gone a different road, at a different time, Bossy must also feel the same. Mant months ago I described my own reaction to a car crash, thankfully only walking wounded, how long before the nightmares would stop if it hadn’t been ?

Many must be suffering from what they encountered that day, Martin and Bossy amongst them.

@SeeBee, I didn’t keep track of everything, didn’t expect to still be here ! At what point did you start tracking stuff, when you joined here or another site or from the beginning ?

If we are honest, we don’t have a clue as to what happened that September 5th, what I take exception to is that a British family are fair game where as the French family aren’t. Or is it a simple Iraqi origin that means they must be bad ?

If you have time go to youtube and look at the initial interviews with EM, on the day and see the vile comments that are left……

6-9-2013 at 16:54:54

Since the news broke I have followed this case, it was an “omg I have been right up that road in 2005 moment”! Started following and thinking about how things could have happened and was supprised by the disinformation flying in the early reporting. As I was extreamly ocuppied by business maters at this time I started to save photos and articals and found this site and others in my persuit of information. I have not posted on any other site as 1) I did not have the time to commit and 2)Some of the othere sites seemed to attract to loose their sense of direction. I started to copy transcripst to read on flights and while traveling so have a good deal of what has been put “out there” indexed.
When my business comitments eased up in April Idecided to share the info and timelines I have developed. I have changed the timeline of 2 items due to the conversations on here with regard to the motorcycle seen by Janin and with regard to the position and movement of the SAH car from 14:30 to 15:15 by the PO.

I will have some time this week to have another look at the YouTube stuff and comments.

@ All is there anyone who has knowlege of the Swiss PO6 in detail …..I have its history and configurations but would welcome more info from a collector as some of the info is conflicting.

6-9-2013 at 16:58:11

I have never had any doubt

This is Celeste again. On second thought I have already now deleted this comment. It was taken from another blog in any case as I realised when I read it for a second time.

Please do not do this in future because I will delete it again. You will therefore waste your time and mine.

6-9-2013 at 17:13:04

“A killer sent to take out a cyclist and a car on an isolated track….with only a pistol ! It would be like taking a penknife to a gunfight.” -Sound observation James.

This was a planned assassination. No other explanation fits.

In such a remote setting that inevitably requires details planning and co-ordination. You have to know precisely when your targets are in place which either involves pre-arrangement, a spotter or some other surveillance method. You have to have a plan “B” or even “C”. You have to get you targets to the intended location at the required time – not that easy.

You have to get your assets there as well which means transport. This is not St Mark’s Square in Summer; this is remote location with strictly limited access/escape, so feet or even bicycle would be almost certainly ruled out. Escape routes have to considered, maybe even by helicopter?

Significantly there was no burnt out vehicle as far as we know, invariably used if a vehicle might have been spotted. This indicates either arrogance or confidence that it would not be sought by police. Or alternatively that the vehicle did not exist.

To do all this, knowing that there were at least four targets, who would send just one man and/or ONE weapon? Who would require the killer to also drive the vehicle? Who would not plan to block BOTH escape routes, knowing the targets had a powerful vehicle and that there were two such, north and south?

This by definition would require a second vehicle/ person (motor cyclist or Peugeot 306?) Nor would you expect the driver to also fulfill the primary killing role.

So by my calculation you do indeed require a three man team and extensive pre-planning and technological back-up to professionally pull this off. Only big crime syndicates or governments can provide this.

Had it been a crime syndicate we would have seen a totally different approach by the French police. There would have been immediate road blocks, issuing of vehicle details, discovery of the burnt out vehicle, the trawl of known criminals, a likely list of suspects or organisations, even a statement acknowledging the action down to some political cause or other.

The conclusion is obvious. This must have been done by government. The targets cannot be accidental. The cause is known but cannot for the moment, anyway be revealed. The fact that the British have not moved against any of the remaining family indicates they do not consider them suspects contrary to what the French are saying.

Indeed their robust action to remove and protect the girls, prevent the French speaking to them or Zaid for months on end, and demonstrating that they are prepared to bring out their heavy weapons to protect Zaid, shows 1. they consider they also may be at risk of assassination 2. they do not trust the French 3. they are not prepared to let the same thing happen to any of the remainder of the family.

This virtually proves SAH was working for the British. That they have not charged or implicated WBM (My apologies TimV for deleting the rest of your sentence. Celeste.)

If it had to be state inspired just a few fit the bill which by a process of elimination and modus operandi is reduced to ever fewer possibilities.

6-9-2013 at 17:22:59

@ TimV

Would you mind stopping copying and pasting your contributions from another blog here?

Whatever your own opinion concerning their merits, I don’t have to read them twice.

PS: On my Unix system, “-v” is a command suffix meaning “use verbose mode” 😀

6-9-2013 at 18:12:40

Hi everyone. This is not Marilyn, but Celeste.

Marilyn left an instruction with me that no one must accuse anyone of being the murderer or accuse anyone as being a Mossad agent or an agent of any other Intelligence service. She told me to trash (delete) such comments. Such a comment has been made here today, but I will leave it as it is for the moment so that all can read it, but in the morning (Monday) I will trash it. I hope you will all understand and not be cross.

6-9-2013 at 19:05:05

@Celeste and @Peter 6-9-2013 at 17:22:59

I agree with you.


TimV is an important commentator in C.M., I read all days your comments in C.M.

But here, in MZT, we are not apologists of conspiration.

Continue your job on C.M., we following you.

Perhaps, in future, the two way will be to join.

It’s important maintain the two way separately.

Good luck Tim.

6-9-2013 at 19:20:05

@ All

Two more things that crossed my mind:

– We’ve all been wondering why there has been such a black-out on pictures of the victims, with the sole exception of that old photo of Saad. Not one of his wife, not one of his mother-in-law, not one of the Doussard souvenir shots. And most significantly not one picture of Sylvain Mollier.
There could be many explanations to this. The less likely is some universal wish of privacy. In such criminal cases, it’s a routine procedure for the media to offer families some money in exchange for a few pictures and possibly an interview, and if it doesn’t work out for any reason to make their point stronger by mentioning they will respect their bereavement if their requests are being met but otherwise would have to do some stalking to reach their goals. Sad, unethical, but it’s the way it works.
– Now put this picture black-out in perspective with another factor: poor Zainab, who could have died at Martinet if not for the heroic gesture of a former RAF officer, did see at least the first part of the assault. She, according to reports, stated she saw (and heard) a single “baddie”. Presumably, she could sooner or later, in the course of her mental recovery, identify that person.. .. ..
Provided she has a picture to look at, so she can go “that was him”. Obviously she will never be able to identify a suspect if there’s no picture of that person..
After she was shot in the shoulder and pistol-whipped on the skull, she must have passed out momentarily. Which means that we cannot exclude that a second criminal went then into action, either to shoot more targets at her relatives.. Or possibly to take down the initial shooter, the only bad guy she can remember. Getting rid of the hit man is not something unheard of.

6-9-2013 at 19:22:42

Your @ all, hello, reading you for a long time …
Want to see what onf cars look like? Go to Google map: Two of them can be seen in Arnand, the 4×4 is parked on the right handside along Route du Moulin (no12), the other car is parked on the yard. (going towards Doussard)
Here are interviews given on the 6th (this explains the “three cyclists” mentioned on Channel4)
Here is the script of the lady’s interview at 5’44
– Vous avez vu apparemment le cycliste qui redescendait de là-bas et qui apparemment a découvert la scene de crime -je serais tenté de dire- ?
– Non, nous on a vu un vététiste qui a vu le cycliste. Donc ce serait un Anglais qui montait par la Combe d’Ire qui a été doublé par le pauvre cycliste qui s’est fait tuer, et quand il est arrivé sur la place du Martinet, donc, il a vu ce qui était arrivé, il aurait retourné la jeune fille et serait descendu appeler des secours et il a rencontré des gens qui montaient pour aller dormir dans un gite et qui sont redescendus pour aller appeler les secours.
– Et il vous a raconté quoi ce vététiste ?
– Ben, pas grand-chose… il a vu comme ça… il y avait un cycliste par terre et lui il est vite redescendu parce qu’on l’a fait redescendre… il devait peut-être y avoir déjà des gens sur place…
– Choqué, véritablement, hein, quand même ?
– Ah oui oui oui, il avait la chair de poule partout
– Et du sang sur les mains apparemment. …. quand il a voulu peut-être retourner… ?
– Oui, disons… le cycliste anglais, oui, qui a retourné… mais lui, on ne l’a pas vu !

6-9-2013 at 19:28:10


Your name is Divinal.

But why do not post my comment of one of my favorites songs, yesterday ?

6-9-2013 at 19:52:23

@Lars 6-9-2013 at 14:15:4

“think you can compare this to two other cases that we all are familiar with, the Marèchal murder and the Mercier murder. I think that anyone who has seen the documentaries about these cases, or read articles about them, can but feel sympathy for the widow of Marèchal and the father of Gregory Mercier. ”

We can not invite Noel Mercier on this blog without the permission of MZT. What a pity!.

6-9-2013 at 20:01:20

@Eugene 6-9-2013 at 19:20:05

“ She, according to reports, stated she saw (and heard) a single “baddie”.”

The baddie is BM,of course. Because BM said he saw Zainab walk as if she was playing, before falling to the ground.
Otherwise, Zainab said “I saw a baddie and a hero.”

6-9-2013 at 20:13:26

@Bacchus Re: Noel Mercier

No we can’t, and I do of course respect Marilyn’s wish not to do so.

Perhaps this blog hasn’t got a lot to offer him either, since we mainly discuss the Chevaline killings and I guess it is of little interest to M. Noel Mercier in his search for his son’s killer, what route Sylvain Mollier choose on that day etc.

We can though contact him privately and ask him questions if we so wish.

6-9-2013 at 20:17:19


That will be another classic “I saw a baddie and a hero.” 🙂

6-9-2013 at 21:30:52

I might be regarded as a bit old-fashioned man but I still believe it is your duty as citizen to do what is within your abilities to obstruct and help solve crimes, when you by coincidence happens to know important facts. Especially if you want to defend a community founded on the rule of law.

I can not see that BM has fulfilled that duty. I am certain that there will come a day when he will have to answer the questions that he doesn’t want to answer today. I don’t think it will get easier when he gets older to come forward and explain why he has kept quiet all those years.

Or will he be one of these men who stubbornly refuses to talk and rather take his secrets and regrets with him in the grave?

6-9-2013 at 22:18:45


For me BM is a witness, he saw all.
He is not directly implicated in this case. But he saw all.

And what saw he ?


And why is not i

6-9-2013 at 22:26:55

RE-onf cars
Sorry, they can be seen at “route du Moulin” no 7

6-9-2013 at 23:57:02

I have seen the Channel Four documentary now.

I think it’s a good documentary.

Fat Bastard is one hell of a friend.

Eric Maillaud is an okay guy doing more or less his work.

Peter Allen is okay, too.

As far as I know, the Schutzes do not own more than one pharmacy as said in the documentary.

As far as I am concerned Maillaud’s statement that Thierry Schutz recommended another road to Sylvain Mollier than Combe d’Ire does make perfect sense given the road conditions I witnessed myself.

Although I know that iconic picture of a biker on a race bike at Martinet – but that was after the murder and he might have gone up despite the road conditions to see the crime scene.

Zainab might not be able to provide any help even when she starts speaking if the killer wore a mask like it was suggested in the documentary.

All al-Hilli lines of investigation are straight bull, the answer lies either in Sylvain Mollier or nowhere reasonable.


6-10-2013 at 00:48:15

@ Eugene:

The gendarmerie used a heat seaking helicopter and still could not find Zeena for she was hidden next to her mother’s still warm body so they’ve never thought that she had been abducted.


6-10-2013 at 00:52:17

2 onf cars can be seen on Gmap at 7 route du Moulin

6-10-2013 at 00:56:19

There are no public photos of the Zs
1 because there is a high court injunction against publishing them
2 because everyone agreed NOT to show pictures

There is a wonderful picture of Saad and the kids on a bouncy castle
but it could not be published
If you look closely at the photo of the car and caravan thats about
look in the background at the swings !

6-10-2013 at 03:41:12

I will take on board your advice Peter
6-9-2013 at 17:22:59 and will not again repost a CM contribution here. I just thought a different audience may appreciate a new point of view. Someone above disparaged “conspiratory theorists” or some such. This is commonly used to disregard a particular line of argument. However I think it is naive to do so. Arguments should be accepted or rejected on their merits not by virtue of some derogatory slogan. There is little doubt that most serious crime involves an element of “conspiracy”, for leaving aside “crimes of passion” and unpremeditated ones, how else can they be executed? Government itself is fond of rubbishing certain opinion in this way, yet its whole approach to Al Qaeda over the last decade has been predicated on conspiracy. Well I never!

6-10-2013 at 08:25:44

This is not Marilyn but it is Celeste.

@Bibi. I say thank you for joining this discussion. And thank you for being a follower of this discussion.

6-10-2013 at 10:47:35

It now seems as though M. Mailluad’s latest ‘piste’ is leading to Roumania.

Le Parisien

Le Nouvel Observateur

6-10-2013 at 11:02:29


That is interesting

Makes you wonder though how it could take 9 months to ‘uncover’ this?? Perhaps it were ‘unlisted’ (starred/secret) numbers.

If true, and I suppose it is true, we can all be ‘reset’ now lol … Yeah Alex, even you with your ‘nutter’;)

– M

6-10-2013 at 11:24:20

The French, eh !

@Bibi, whilst the Gmap is from Feb 2010, in that area there are umpteen 4×4’s and rightly so, excluding the Forestry vehicles, which I see is a Landrover type and a citroen van type, is that right, both dark green, the former with a white roof ! So, would any 4×4, even RHD stand out in the crowd, afterall even EM admits the area is popular with tourists, it is the regions main income, all year round.

Big cars, top boxes, all over the place.

@Alex, for all of EM’s insistence about the gun being local but could have been acquired by someone from outside, of course it could, but that surely needs a great deal more planning and risk of the person supplying it giving info to the police especially after such an event. So, like you, I think whomever did this was local and already had the gun.

6-10-2013 at 11:26:49

The article in the Nouvel Observateur says that Ikbal’s sister Fadwa al-Saffar also called Romania. Why didn’t police simply ask her whom those Romanian numbers belonged to and what this was all about?

@ Fat Bastard
Do you know why the family might have been calling somebody in Romania?

6-10-2013 at 11:32:34

@Max @Peter

Le Nouvel Observateur quotes the Parisien as saying a letter requesting information about the numbers was sent in mid-january, so plenty of time to have had a response and to have followed up.

Either way it appears this was perhaps a track that led nowhere.

6-10-2013 at 11:41:02

@ Y

Unbelievably, it says that they haven’t been able to work out whom those numbers belonged to yet.
“Preuve que cette piste roumaine suscite l’intérêt des enquêteurs, les deux juges d’instruction ont délivré une commission rogatoire internationale dès le 16 janvier dernier”, écrit également “Le Parisien” selon lequel les numéros de téléphone roumains seraient toujours en cours d’identification

6-10-2013 at 11:58:26

Phone Records
I think asking Fadwa would be a good idea since it was probably her calls ..but maybe if they were nicer to her and not messing her about
she might tell them

This shows the low level of the investigation
it took 9 weeks for the police to contact me (as i was in Saads mobile)
and even then they were very hesitant to call me Fat Bastard

6-10-2013 at 12:06:53

I just cannot get my head around the fact that it would take them six months (!) to identify a few phone numbers in Romania. And why would they need a commission rogatoire internationale for that?

France and Romania are both signatories to the Prüm Conventionüm_Convention
they are sharing all kinds of information already; there are web forms for making requests for information of this kind. Obtaining this information should have taken hours, at most days.

6-10-2013 at 12:42:01

Well, at least we now know that it was Jean-Marc “The Man” Ducos who broke that story. The article in Le Parisien that everybody else is quoting from is his.

We may also hazard a guess how Eric Clouseau got that idea of a low-cost contract killer from the Balkans stealing or otherwise obtaining a local gun.

Anyway, the fact that Fadwa made, or also made, those calls to Romania probably mean that there is nothing sinister to them. Still, it simply defies belief that French police cannot get telephone subscriber information from Romania in six months. The mind boggles 🙁

6-10-2013 at 12:45:56

Re: Romania

The first of Y’s articles was even written by Jean-Marc Ducos!

I get the idea, whoever hired the Romanian contract killer (Saad’s mother in law, Saad ****** in law – I don’t name anybody here) *wanted* the girls, with whom s/he was related, to survive!


P.S. By the fragments of the gun it was always said it was a Luger P06 but as I understood in the first stages of investigation it might also have been a Skorpion vz 61, heavily popular on the Balkan and Romania is not that far from it.

6-10-2013 at 12:52:32

Re: “Hello – Bucharest calling”

Just to let you guys know, “if I die tonite” (props to 2Pac!) it has nothing to do with the fact that I called Egypt about a month ago.



6-10-2013 at 12:58:12

@ Alex

The idea that the gun used may have been a Skorpion was from the days when all the press (and we) knew that 7.65 ammunition had been used. The Skorpion uses 7.65 x 17 Browning, the P06 uses 7.65 x 21 Parabellum.Škorpion_vz._61×21mm_Parabellum

6-10-2013 at 12:58:22

The same telephone numbers were found on the Claygate fixed line, outgoing and ingoing and on Fadwars phone.

They were many and stopped abruptly three weeks before the killing. Where was her brother at this time ?

6-10-2013 at 13:29:15

Boys and girls it so easy. 😉

It is damage control, as simple as that.

E-Maillaud watches that Ch. 4 documentary and finds out that he doesn’t cut such a good figure in it. People are even gainsaying him !? Horror!

So what does he do but launch a new media campaign. Hmm, American servers been used, strange cars been used, why not Romanian phone calls this time? Sounds strange enough, good idea!

The friend Ducos is of course willing to help.

I have already said that it is partly a confederacy of dunces.

6-10-2013 at 13:32:41

Strangely enough (but we at MZT just die for this weird strange murder case;) the ‘3 weeks’ coincides with the arrival of HT in the UK (‘late august’)

There is always the risk that the real target is ‘overlooked’ (SM instead of AH, or even (one of the) the women in stead of the men)

Perhaps it would be interesting to check HT’s phone calls against ‘Romania’;)

– M

6-10-2013 at 13:39:05

Maybe E-Maillaud was inspired by that murder in Spain that Max referred to earlier, wasn’t one of these very brutal killers also Romanian?

So E-Maillaud thought “Those Romanians are a strange and brutal lot. If the press starts talking about Romanian phone calls people will understand what a strange lot those al-Hillis also were”.

It is called guilt by affiliation.

6-10-2013 at 13:43:56

Annoyingly, Nigerian John’s girlfriend is Slovak, not Romanian

I’m still extremely curious about his role. Regarding timings, his first alleged fraud attempt is said to have taken place on August 14

6-10-2013 at 13:46:38

@Lars, a while ago I picked up something in a Frecnh comments section referring to ‘travellers’ being likely culprits ……..

We have no idea how the brother got to the UK, did he fly, make his way to a port, go ona bit of a tour beforehand, and where is he now ?

@FB, I would hope that Fadwar wouldn’t withold any information, regardless of her treatment by the Police.

6-10-2013 at 13:50:27


withholding information?
“so can you tell us who you made personal phone calls to from Saads landline”
I would rather not they were personal and private and nothing to do with you !

6-10-2013 at 13:55:16

“hey sis can I use the landline again
i want to call that hitman to have you bumped off “

6-10-2013 at 13:57:39

@ All

No need to keep on complicating the issue. Since most of us agree the killer’s got be a “local nutter”, nothing stops this lunatic from being of Romanian descent, and possibly use his Romanian cellphone in Haute-Savoie. Nostalgia in terms of phone lines just as in terms of firearms. Fits the Bill.
In any case, none of the the usual suspects had, as far as we know, connections in Romania. Romania is so far away from Iraq, Claygate, Chambourcy, or Brighton.
Otherwise, the smokescreen is getting darker and darker..

6-10-2013 at 14:03:35

@Peter, re ‘Slovak’

Close enough;)

Btw, credits to you for being sharp on John! Good job, perhaps you suddenly are in front of the pack for the champagne;)

6-10-2013 at 14:11:13

@ All:

And yes, I’ve been to Romania once.



6-10-2013 at 14:56:17

@Fat Bastard, the link says that the same five telephone numbers were on Saads home phone line and on Fadwars phone !

In no way am I insinuating that she has anything to do with what happened, but why wouldn’t she tell the police who the calls were made to and from on her own phone.

It is a murder investigation, if it was Fadwar that made the calls from Saads home, although she lived near Reading, why ?

Did you see her or her mother at the property in the weeks before they went on holiday ?

6-10-2013 at 15:01:32
6-10-2013 at 15:11:05

@ Lynda

I assume you have noticed that the Guardian article that you referenced tells a wholly different story: On Monday, Eric Maillaud, the Annecy public prosecutor, confirmed that detectives had asked the Romanian authorities to trace the telephone numbers following calls allegedly made to and from the home of Hilli’s brother Zaid in the three weeks before the family left for a holiday in France. “We believe the brother was in contact with Romania and we are looking to identify the calls. We would like to know why he was calling people in Romania,” Maillaud told the Guardian. (…) The prosecutor said he was unable to confirm reports in Le Parisien that Mrs Hilli’s sister Fadwa al-Saffar also made calls to Romania from her home in Reading.

6-10-2013 at 15:11:27

So, how do you get from this, below quote, to the Guardian article that says the calls were made to and from Zaids home phone ? Because as in all of this case, everything gets lost in translation ! Those of us who understand French know that the he/she/it can be very confusing.

“Or, selon “Le Parisien”, les enquêteurs français et britanniques ont découvert que de nombreux appels ont été émis vers la Roumanie depuis le domicile des Al-Hilli, à Claygate, au Royaume-Uni, tandis que des appels ont été reçus sur cette même ligne fixe, également depuis la Roumanie.

“Cinq numéros reviennent de façon récurrente”

“Elément troublant, cinq numéros reviennent de façon récurrente, puis cessent brutalement d’apparaître sur les relevés”, relève le quotidien qui précise que ces échanges téléphoniques remontent à trois semaines avant le séjour en France de la famille al-Hilli.

“Preuve que cette piste roumaine suscite l’intérêt des enquêteurs, les deux juges d’instruction ont délivré une commission rogatoire internationale dès le 16 janvier dernier”, écrit également “Le Parisien” selon lequel les numéros de téléphone roumains seraient toujours en cours d’identification.

D’après les éléments de l’enquête, un autre membre de la famille aurait été en contact avec la Roumanie. “Il s’agit de Fadwa al-Saffar, la belle-sœur de Saad”, lit-on dans “Le Parisien”. Ses relevés font mention d’échanges avec des numéros de téléphone identiques à ceux répertoriés chez les Al-Hilli.”

6-10-2013 at 15:19:04

I just wonder, who in his right state of mind and not being a criminal, would call somebody in Romania ?! 😉

6-10-2013 at 15:20:27

@Peter, I would say this is very specific, wouldn’t you ?


“Or, selon “Le Parisien”, les enquêteurs français et britanniques ont découvert que de nombreux appels ont été émis vers la Roumanie depuis le domicile des Al-Hilli, à Claygate, au Royaume-Uni, tandis que des appels ont été reçus sur cette même ligne fixe, également depuis la Roumanie.”

Zaid does not live in Claygate !

@Max, in Sweden they said they hadn’t seen Hayder for a month and that he had gone to the UK. A month, since he’d been seen, where did he go ? Again, I don’t think he is a suspect, but it could account for the telephone calls.

6-10-2013 at 15:21:26

@ Alex

Thanks for admitting. Now better tell us the whole truth. How long ago did you go to Romania? Was it like 3 months before the Chevaline murders? And how many phone calls did you then make to the UKGB? Were they from your Vodafon or something else? We all know criminals like to return to their crime scene. Not all of them make a video out of it, but it’s Okay.
Remember, NSA and GCHQ have the answer ready: we’re living in a free world, in case you forget.

6-10-2013 at 15:23:03

@ Lynda

There is no “lost in translation” here, only fact vs. fiction.

Either The Guardian are being very, very cheeky indeed, or they have actually spoken to Eric Clouseau and gotten the story straight from the horse’s mouth. As Le Parisien’s and the Guardian’s accounts cannot both be true, I tend to believe the Grauniad’s version. Unlike Le Parisien’s story, it contains attributable quotes from a named source.

6-10-2013 at 15:28:51

@ Lars

Believe it or not, I called Romania only yesterday.

Before we jump to any conclusions on the Zaid front, I should like to point out that repeatedly calling somebody from one’s own landline phone is not exactly the most conspirative of approaches. It is the cheapest way to call abroad apart from Skype etc., but it does leave a paper trail. Moreover, five different numbers sounds as if he was talking to a company (the Romanian version of Murder, Inc.?) there rather than to any specific individual.

6-10-2013 at 15:36:56

@ Admin

To avoid any misunderstanding, following Marilyn’s instructions, I promptly add that my former post, clocked @ 15:21:26, was a pun, and not blaming any suspect without regard to the rules to this blog.

6-10-2013 at 15:53:51

@Peter, fine, but why soooo different reports, the Le Parisien breaking first, specifically stating calls made from the Claygate house.

Unless of course the ‘lost in translation’ is the other way around ?

Few of the reports read the same when spat out from either end, been like this all the way through.

French – calls stopped abruptly three weeks before the killings.

English – calls in the three weeks up to the killings

The Tour de France is approaching, someone will be blamed, looks as if EM has Zaid Al-Hilli in his sights, what do you make of that FB ?

At this point in time, step back and be objective, Zaid has gained absolutlely nothing, the part of Khadims estate that would have belonged to Saad, now belongs to his daughters. Zaid gets his share when probate is sorted and the properties sold, no doubt the girls have someone acting as their official guardian who will be in charge of such affairs.

6-10-2013 at 15:54:49

Some confirmation that this is about Zaid’s phone calls:

Zaid al-Hilli denies any feud. British police have spoken to him as part of their investigation but have given no indication that they consider him a suspect. Maillaud said that, because of that, Zaid al-Hilli had not been asked to explain the calls from his phone to Romania. “Those are the type of questions that cannot be asked of a witness in Britain,” the prosecutor said. “He would have to be considered a suspect.”

6-10-2013 at 15:55:58

@ Eugene:

I’ve been to Romania 26 years ago, and it was a different country then…no, stop, wait – it has not changed a dime since then:)

Anyway, they didn’t know about telephones, landline or cellular, by then, so we never saw one.

All gas stations were closed so we reached the ferry for Bulgaria with the last drop of gas and only because the last kms to the ferry went downhill – on arrival in Bulgaria we had to push the ride uphill!

We had a blown out tyre in the middle of nowhere and it was heavily raining but nevertheless everybody came to our help (not even necessary riding a Citroën that will run for ages even on a burst tyre) – and for you were given the death penalty for the possession of foreign currencies other than the east bloc’s we traded cigarettes for breakdown services.


P.S. It is the most beautiful country in all of Europe, stretching from the mountains to the sea.

6-10-2013 at 16:11:18

@ Alex

I have no doubt about that, and you sound like a great guy.

6-10-2013 at 16:57:38

I have been thinking … If Zaid called a company, why didn’t he do so from his office phone? Okay, he may have been looking for a new job, or maybe he toyed with the idea of doing some business in Romania independently.

But then why *the heck* would it take six months or more for the police to establish whose numbers he called? There might be a somewhat sinister explanation for that: AFAIK, Romania is one of the few European countries where one can still buy truly anonymous prepaid SIM cards. Moreover, Romania is one of the few countries where mobile phone network providers are not required by law to store traffic data for six months. Thus, whilst Zaid called from his landline, he may have called to mobile phone(s) and may have been called from mobile phone(s).

Then there is that thing about the five numbers that he is alleged to have called. If he called them more or less contemporaneously (i. e., number 1 today, number 2 the next, number 1 again the day after), that would suggest to me as if he was talking to a company or some other organization. Harmless, above-board. If, upon the other hand, the pattern was that he called number 1 a few times in a row but never again thereafter, then number 2 a few times in a row but never again thereafter and so forth, that could indicate that he was talking to some slippery customer who is in the habit of changing his phone number every few days.

6-10-2013 at 16:57:46

@Peter, the Telegraph link is quoting from Le Parisien, apparently, so where in that article does it say about the brother.

EM is playing games, he neither confirms NOR denies Le Parisien reporting.

Zaid or family who are following us, Fadwa and family, just tell them who you recieved the calls from or who you made them to, simples.

All of this is not making the case to have the girls released to their family any easier.

oh and The Telegraph writes ‘However, the murder weapon – a Luger P08’.

Too much copy and paste as per usual, just wait until the red tops get hold of it, Zaid will need an armed guard to keep the vigilantes away from the door !

What does Peter Allen of The Sunday Times have to say ?

6-10-2013 at 17:00:37

The sister and her daughter often stayed in Claygate
especially out of term time
another friend said he assumed she was house sitting while her mum went to france .

6-10-2013 at 17:10:18

@Peter, from the google hosted news:

‘According to Maillaud, Saad and Zaid’s father wrote two draft wills, one of which left Saad with nothing and one which envisaged a fair split of assets worth several million euros (pounds.)’

Now, I referred to many millions recently and was told that there wasn’t, so which is it ?

‘Zaid al-Hilli denies any feud with his brother. British police have spoken to him as part of their inquiries but have given no indication that they consider him a suspect.

Maillaud said that, for that reason, Zaid al-Hilli had not been asked to explain the calls from his phone to Romania.

“Those are the type of questions that cannot be asked of a witness in Britain,” the prosecutor said. “He would have to be considered a suspect.”

Add to that two draft wills, one leaving nothing to Saad and another splitting between the two brothers, now if as the Channel 4 programme suggested, Saad believed his brother had made a fraudulent will, then cased closed.

Maillaud detests the fairy stories that this case has brought about, so why the heck is he continuing to apparently propgate such ?

6-10-2013 at 17:20:01

@FB, so ‘the friend’ suggested that Fadwa was in the house whilst Mum went to France, so it wasn’t empty ? They left UK on the 29th August.

What about the locks changed, Saad telling the guy who lives opposite to keep an eye on the place ? Unless of course, Fadwa was asked to go check it over every couple of days, always a possibility, but dear old Jack Saltman has made no comments about someone being there and he likes to be interviewed, poor old sop.

Fadwa, if you made calls from that house to anywhere, just tell them who it was to. Zaid, please do the same, this isn’t rocket science, in the advent of no information the press just make it up anyway and no doubt to your detriment.

I beginning to wonder if EM has a twin, each of them saying something different but similar to the press depending on who is asking the question, or maybe he is the one suffering from a mutiple personality disorder ! No wthat would make an interesting ‘fairy tale’.

How can two sides of the Channel get the reporting so different ?

6-10-2013 at 17:24:52

@ Lynda, 6-10-2013 at 16:57:46

The Telegraph article refers to Zaid from the very first sentence onwards: Eric Maillaud, Annecy prosecutor, said Romanian authorities had been asked to help establish who Zaid al-Hilli, the brother of Saad al-Hilli, had been calling.

Never mind, I must confess that I myself had completely overlooked that statement in the AFP piece, that there were two wills, one of which would have left *Saad* with nothing.

That does rather change the situation, doesn’t it? For Zaid to have inherited the lot, there would have been no need for the AH daughters to die as well. It would have sufficed for all the adults who might have contested the validity and authenticity of that will leaving everything to Zaid to die.

6-10-2013 at 17:29:24
6-10-2013 at 17:33:57

RE locks were changed :

[25/12/2011 18:36:56] saad: when he left i changed the locks to the house

6-10-2013 at 17:37:28

I was going to post all my stuff about
saads mum leaving the house to him
but as there might be a civil case about this
i think i had better not
as usual
invitation to tea remains to look at stuff 🙂

6-10-2013 at 18:14:49

@FB, if that property was in hers and Khadims name, she only had a right to leave her half share to him or the cats home if she wished.

But why would a mother not wish both her sons to benefit, this afterall was some 11/12 years ago and Zaid, if I understand correctly at some point lived in the house.

Did they not put her will through probate ? Somehow I have a doubt they did, so by law her possessions passed to her husband, Khadim.

The Christmas Day Skype chat, 2011, we’ve seen some of that before, what is interesting is that the locks were changed some while before the holiday to France, so not just before he left as much of the press try to make out.

6-10-2013 at 18:57:56


go look if it makes you feel better !

Fashiha Shaban if you are not sure of the spelling

6-10-2013 at 18:58:22

@Peter Re: “Believe it or not, I called Romania only yesterday.”

I don’t know how I shall interpret that? 😉

6-10-2013 at 19:08:30

@FB, have you seen a copy of probate granted to a Will or ‘grant’ in favour of Saad being the person charged with the affairs of his late mother ?

Thankyou for the link, interesting, but if you already have the information then there is no need.

My question is because much by EM is being laid at the doorstep of Zaid being somehow responsible for the deaths, I know that you don’t believe that to be the case from what you have written before.

6-10-2013 at 20:04:03

I have a lot of stuff that Saad told me
however if it might cause offence to any family members
then i wont post it
Saad put the house in joint names after his mum left it to him
as he thought that was the brotherly thing to do

6-10-2013 at 20:23:54

@FB, if that is the case, then the death of Khadim had nothing to do with the argument over the house, Zaid and Saad were joint owners, Zaid wanted his share.

Have you seen the deeds of the property, I assume the enquiry team must have by now. I’ve lived long enough to know that we all, that includes you and me, put a positive spin on situations to favour ourselves.

Now I am not suggesting your friend was telling an untruth, but it was from his point of view, which was a very different one to his brother.

The problem is that these events happened before you met him, so as such it is hearsay unless you have seen the papers. You have shared with us his concern about losing the home and the money and time he’d invested in it, although again this is limited to the time you knew him, about three to four years (?).

On the electoral list, Iqbal never appears, although, Khadim, Fasiha, Zaid and Saad do, the property appears to have been purchased in May 1999 for £268K (now that sounds like a Daily Mail piece of writing!).

If the property was left to Saad, leaving out Zaid, who appears to have been living at the property at the time of Fasihas death, then why ?

Was there already a family dispute that goes back years………. I recall reading somewhere that a property was bought for Zaid when he left the family home, I believe this is the one that his son now lives in and that Zaid lives elsewhere, I wonder if the property was bought as an offset for Saad keeping the family home.

As much as it pains me to say this, Zaid would be well advised to volunteer his assistance again to the British Police. This matter appearing in the news so often must be slowly killing the man and his family and Iqbals sister and wider family.

I rest of the opinion that this was a local crime, but Zaid could do with some legal help to stop the gossip, especially when it emanates apparently from the French Prosecutor.

6-10-2013 at 20:36:45

@ Lars, 6-10-2013 at 18:58:22

It just means that I have a very good friend in Romania, whom another mutual friend is currently staying with – and neither of them are gypsies or criminals.

Anyway, to get an off-topic point off my chest: In that C4 documentary, have any of you noticed the state of Eric Clouseau’s rotting, blackening incisors, presumably the reason why he never (at least on-camera) smiles or grins? Eugh! How can a man in such a public office hope to get away with not brushing his teeth, not regularly seeing a dental hygienist and/or having those ruins capped with onlays? Watch out for the scene at 45:21, where he does smile for the first and only time – fortunately – during that documentary, whilst accusing British Social Services of being overly protective of the AH daughters. For goodness’ sake! 🙁

6-10-2013 at 20:50:36

Re: dental health

I noticed the same thing with other persons that have appeared during this case (and the other cases we discussed). That they have either bad teeth or even lost several teeths. It would be very unpolite and unnecessary to name any names here.

Lynda or Marilyn can probably enlighten us here, if the French dental care is very expensive or hard to come by for other reasons, lack of dentists etc., or if it is only France.

6-10-2013 at 21:12:57

Dental hygeine – I suspect he smokes, although I would add that dental services are very expensive.

The carte vitale, covers a check up every year, maybe up to 75 Euros, after that it’s all on the individual.

A replacement tooth, the screw-in type is about 1,000 Euros.

I’ve decided to have a brace fitted to straighten out my two upper front teeth, family inherited crossing. The cost is just over 2,500 Euros, no contribution from the state, but my top-up health insurance will donate 150 Euros in a year towards it.

For the said top-up insurance, covers in general the 30% not paid for under the state scheme for all health issues, costs, my husband and I 2,600 Euros a year, he still pays Social Security on his pension.

Why EM and people of such a standing don’t get a regular professional clean if nothing else is beyond me, his breath must stink !

A couple of years ago I needed a nurse to come to the house every day to administer an injection, she was about my age, the long (dyed) blonde hair, the tight leather trousers, fancy jewellery, made anyone go wow, then she smiled and we all went WOW ?

6-10-2013 at 21:39:30

are you sure about the house ? 26 oaken lane

and Iqbal wont be on the electoral roll before saad got married in 2003
to Ikbal
Name: Saad AL-hilli
Spouse Surname: AL-Saffar
Date of Registration: Aug 2003
Registration District: Surrey Northern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume Number: 757
Page Number: 776
Register Number: R1C

6-10-2013 at 22:38:29

@FB, first apologies I had the wrong number of the house regarding it’s sale/ownership, I tried your link, doesn’t bring up 26 and neither does The Land Registry site, maybe because it wasn’t ‘sold’ on.

On the 192 electoral list, the final entry which was from 2010 to present only Saad is listed, prior to that on different date bands, Khadim, Fasiha, Zaid and Saad are listed.

The link won’t copy but it goes back to 2002.

The entry you have posted if correct proves that Saad and maybe Iqbal were the registered owners, so the property would not form part of the estate of Khadim as is being said in the press, that, his flat in Spain and the money in Switzerland. The talk of other properties in Switzerland, France, Iraq seem to have lost impetus.

If this was the last entry then Zaid wasn’t on the deeds either, so has no legal right to the property, even if Saad had honourably intended to put it in the two brothers names.

By rights it would now be passed to the girls, if there is no other legal documentation to support another claim.

So, why again so much misreporting, the only way that Zaid could have got his hands on anything to do with the house would be if the entire family had been wiped out.

Then, logic says that if it was in Saads and Iqbals name it would have been split between Zaid, and Iqbals brother and sister. If only in Saads name then only Zaid would be beneficiary, but neither apply as the girls are the benefactors. I’m only referring to the house, gets more complicated for the rest.

With these questions hanging over the family, then the plight of those girls isn’t looking ‘rosy’, the family need to put themsleves in the clear.

So why is it being said that the house is part of Khadims estate ?

6-10-2013 at 22:45:32

@Bibi 6-9-2013 at 22:26:55

@Bibi 6-10-2013 at 00:52:17

J’avais bon espoir qu’aujourd’hui serait un grand jour.

Quelqu’un a répondu à mon appel. “Effata ! Héra “

Un témoin muet vient de parler.

C’est peut-être le jour le plus important de notre enquête.

La plus grande révélation depuis le début.

Merci Bibi, j’espère que vous avez raison.

Merci ma mère qui est au ciel, merci BACCHUS pour être mon fidèle compagnon et merci SAH pour m’avoir toujours convaincu à rester sur ce blog, au nom de vos filles.

6-10-2013 at 23:10:10

i dont think some journalists check as well as you do 🙂
C4 team were french so may not have been up to speed on the land registry

6-11-2013 at 03:03:50

Whenever I’m prompted to post in your room Marilyn, I feel rather like an unwanted guest or interloper for some reason. So apologies for this one but the latest Romanian diversion by M. Maillaund is irresistible.

A rather obvious question that no one appears to have asked is “How did he come by the information?” After all it is Zaid’s telephone we are talking about not Saads. Zaid’s telephone calls would be private unless some warrant had been obtained or he had offered up the information voluntarily. If either case, it rather undermines EM’s claim that he couldn’t obtain the recipient’s number. And from a tracing point of view if you know the one you must surely know the other.

Further, what sane investigator announces to the world his failures? It’s clearly all nonsense and yet another “blind alley” down which to direct a gullible (?) public. But for what purpose? To maintain curiosity? Surely not, To advertise police incompetence? To engender sympathy for the investigators? Or maybe just to comply with Marilyn’s theory about justifying a continuation?

In “the other place” I raised the rather gory revelation by our friend “Philippe Bossy”, of a two euro hole in Saad’s head! Clearly at over 25 mm this is considerably more than 7.65. Any ideas your side of the Channel why this should be??

6-11-2013 at 07:56:18

6-10-2013 at 22:38:29

I’m not sure you’re quite au fait with property and inheritance law.

The Land Registry is a public document so anyone could check on the legal ownership of a registered property as recorded in the proprietorship register.

There are two kinds of joint ownership, you know? Under a ‘joint tenancy’ a half share in a property automatically passes to the survivor, irrespective of the deceased person’s will or intestacy. It’s only under the second type of joint ownership, ‘a tenancy in common’ that a deceased person can leave their half share to the cats’ home!

Khadim could have retained an interest in the property for example by creating a charge back in respect of actual or notional money lent to his sons. In this case the charge would form part of his estate. Just as a building society mortgage doesn’t disappear when you die!


6-11-2013 at 09:09:59


There is no reason to feel ‘not wanted’ here. But the ‘key’ is with you. If you want to contribute to 2 (or more) different sites, you simply have to refrain from using words like CM, ‘the other side’ the ‘Marilyn bunch’, MZT or whatever. In other words, you have to post your thoughts in strict neutrality and without the copy/paste attitude (which can be viewed as a sort of ‘cross posting’ which in the ol days of the internet was already viewed as ‘not done’;)

I have a gaming clan. There was once a big trouble over a guy who wanted also to be in another ‘competitive’ clan and maintained the idea that he easily could do that and maintain neutrality. I said that he was at least going in a 50%-50% situation, just like having 2 girl friends. Perhaps the guy was pleased, but what about the girl friends? … See MZT as a ‘girl friend’ … sooner or later a girl friend or both will say that you have to choose;)

But … aside of that, you are more than welcome;)

– M

6-11-2013 at 09:39:16

@ All

The subliminal friendly feud between these two blogs looks like a copycat of the joint tenancy in the investigation.
We all already knew about bipolar disorder, but with this case we now discover a new syndrome, “bi-police disorder”. In this disease, both sides of the investigating team alternatively address the same issues, only to provide conflicting pieces of evidence and subsequently draw opposite conclusions.
This is only made possible because in France, perjury is not a crime. So Inspector Clouseau can easily get away with it and keep indulging in his “closing-the-doors” addiction. He doesn’t even have a twin.
In the UK, this wouldn’t work. He would have to face a Committee and be asked “Do you swear to tell the sleuth, the whole sleuth and nothing but the sleuth?”
I’m telling you. There might be more than one nutter in this story.

6-11-2013 at 09:56:56

This is Celeste.

I told Marilyn (she’s in Russia) about the latest comment from Max and Eugene.

She asked me to tell you Eugene that here on this blog no one has a feud, friendly or angry, going with any other group of people discussing the Chevaline case. The commentators here on this blog are the ones at the receiving end. Tell them, she said, that we’ve not yet once attacked anyone commenting anywhere else.

And she asked me to tell Max that what he said is correct: here on this blog all are welcome and we do not call people names, as Max also pointed out.

6-11-2013 at 10:50:57

Since I am like Alex “exclusively” 🙂 participating here on this blog, I don’t even read other blogs on this subject (since sometime at the end of September last year), I don’t really understand discussion above. I don’t participate on a any other blogs on any other subject either. I am actually only present on one other site (though not active for the moment) on the whole Internet.
For me it is thus ok if someone wants to summarize his/her thoughts presented in other fora on this blog. Copying posts between blogs is perhaps unnecessary, especially since posts are generally a part of a discussion, so you have to understand the context as well.
Otherwise I hope all will feel welcomed. I think this is also the difference between this blog and many others, and a reason why I have choosen to participate at all, after some initial hesitation.

6-11-2013 at 11:16:27

@ TimV and @ All

I think it’s hardly a mystery how Eric Clouseau knows which numbers Zaid AH had been calling. I should be very, very disappointed in the UK police if they hadn’t requested all his prior phone bills from the providers, tapped his phones, bugged his house and his car etc. immediately after the murders.
They can do all that easily
and they would have been foolish not to, given the feud between the two brothers, the ominous bank account in Geneva, as well as Zaid’s bizarre behaviour in the aftermath of the murders, namely, popping into a local police station in order to protest his innocence.

However, all these measures obviously haven’t given UK police sufficient grounds to interview him under caution
let alone arrest him.

I have addressed the likely reason why Romanian authorities haven’t been able to work out whom those Romanian numbers belong to above: They are probably anonymous prepaid mobile-phone numbers.

To my mind, the most interesting aspect of this calls-to-Romania trope is why Eric Clouseau chose to confirm his knowledge of those calls. He could easily have pleaded confidentiality and declined to comment. Yet he merrily went on record confirming their existence and threw another item (the existence of two draft wills by Kadhim AH, one of which left everything to Zaid) into the mix. His intention in doing so must have been to rattle Zaid. Clouseau has previously stated that he would detain Zaid if he could. I take that statement to have been intended to serve the same end.

6-11-2013 at 11:44:41

There are some interesting details concerning the two draft wills in here

L’autre volet de l’enquête sur l’héritage concerne Zaid Al-Hilli, le frère de la victime. “Il a essayé par tous les moyens de spolier son frère”, constate le procureur de la République d’Annecy. Son père lui avait demandé de rédiger un projet de testament dont les effets auraient été équitables pour la fratrie. Une confiance trahie par Zaid Al-Hilli, qui aurait établi un document très favorable à ses intérêts. Son père s’en est rendu compte avant de mourir et le testament a été modifié.

Zaid Al-Hilli aurait également tenté de récupérer une partie de l’argent laissé par son défunt père sur un compte en Suisse, environ un million d’euros. Il aurait pour cela utilisé une fausse carte bancaire. Mais la banque a bloqué cette manœuvre frauduleuse.

6-11-2013 at 13:32:05

So it’s now part of the semi-official French narrative that Zaid Al Hilli tried to access his late father’s Swiss bank account using a false bank card.

I thought that was supposed to be Nigerian John!?

Curiouser and curiouser ~

6-11-2013 at 14:25:07

@ Mochyn69

The allegation that Zaid attempted to access his late father’s account using an expired (probably not forged) debit card is very old news.

What I am struggling to get my head around is that Nigerian John is alleged to have tried to access SAH’s own bank accounts via phone and Internet at pretty much the same time, both before and after his death. Either that is one of the weirdest coincidences that I have ever heard of, or someone put him up to it.

6-11-2013 at 15:27:11

@ Peter:

It’s just my two cents, and I have nothing to prove it, but I’ve always considered Nigerian John pure coincidence.

@ Lars:

I’m also on and therefore *love* to blog with Tapatalk which just doesn’t work yet with MZT.

MZT for life:)


6-11-2013 at 15:40:54

Has no journalist (Peter Allen etc. pp.) just asked yet Zaid al-Hilli whose numbers he called or have I just not read it?


6-11-2013 at 16:59:18

@ Alex

I don’t think there will be many takers for that idea. The last attempt by a journalist to ask him anything ended with a bunch of thugs appearing, all brandishing automatic weapons, their eyes glittering with blood-lust, their voices hoarse with barely-contained aggression …

6-11-2013 at 17:42:18

should i give Zaid a call ?

probably best not …dont want my phone tapped

6-11-2013 at 18:56:46

Why don’t they ask NSA?

6-11-2013 at 21:40:49

@ Fat Bastard
dont want my phone tapped
I’m sorry to have to be the one who breaks this to you, but if you think that you, a resident of Tapville, Tapshire, UK, can stick your nose into an ongoing police investigation, get on the t*ts of local Social Services and police alike, talk to crime-beat journalists (always and by definition prime targets for surveillance), participate in TV documentaries that might have turned out to be critical of the police, make threats to French judicial authorities on a public Internet forum (however jocular or hyperbolic you may have intended those threats to be), and *still don’t expect your phone and Internet traffic to be monitored 24/7* – then you are of of life’s natural optimists, and I admire you for that 😀

Anyway, your asking Zaid wouldn’t make any difference, apart perhaps from satisfying our own morbid curiosity. He must have seen the newspaper headlines on this topic by now, so it’s up to him to either clam up and lawyer up or talk to the police of his own accord. Personally, at this stage, I really cannot envisage him as the instigator of these murders, but I still wouldn’t hold it against him if he elected to keep quiet. From his point of view, that is by far the safest route to take. However, you might like to talk to Fadwa Al-Saffar, what she thinks about all this. As long as this shadow of suspicion hangs over the family, her chances of being granted custody of the Zs are nil. If you wish to help her in her endeavour to adopt the Zs, you must coordinate your own strategy with her.

@ Lars
Why don’t they ask NSA?
I sincerely hope that you are joking, unlike all the conspiracy theorists making the same point. The object of the police investigation into the Chevaline murders is to collect sufficient evidence against person or persons unknown to convict them after a trial in open court. Whilst countries such as France AFAIK don’t have a “fruit of the poison tree” doctrine, every single piece of evidence is open to scrutiny in open court, and every instance where the prosecution or prosecution witnesses say “I cannot tell you how this evidence was obtained” is a slam-dunk for the defence.

I know people on both sides of this divide. One spooky friend of mine used to supply German prosecutors with evidence of the “Oops, how did that get into this file? Well, now that we have got it, let’s use it anyway!” type. All of this was rock-hard, incontrovertible evidence, it just wasn’t backed up by a willingness to dislose sources and methods. Still, the defence shredded the evidence in every case and the accused walked free.

6-11-2013 at 21:49:42

In your post of 6-11-2013 at 03:03:50 you asked about the reported “2 Euro wound”

If you look higher up this thread at around 6-7-2013 at 22:22:34, Peter (and I think others) discussed this topic (in fairly gory detail).

6-11-2013 at 22:01:17


Yes, I am pulling their legs. 😉

Though I am not so certain that everything is so fair and according to law.

6-12-2013 at 01:28:07

6-8-2013 at 05:27:13 I’ve just come across your post. The unanswered, unanswerable, questions!

6-12-2013 at 01:52:09

@Bibi – 6-9-2013 at 19:22:42

Bibi, thanks for pointing out that news video and particularly the dialogue relevant to “the third cyclist”. My french is rubbish, but I think it is specifically a mountain-biker. But what do I know, I wouldn’t call a mountain lodge/chalet a “gite” – perhaps someone with native french can translate.

I had not come across this before and I recommend to everyone having a look and see what you make of it. It seems to be from very early on (6th) so I doubt that any official story has been imposed.

On the “timeline issue” it claims that BM passed SM on the way up.!

6-12-2013 at 09:43:32


I am taking over from Celeste again now.

Someone had wanted to know (Lars I think it was you) how one goes about having access to a police file.

One has to put in a request in writing to the Prefecture de Police dealing with the case. It is almost impossible to be granted such permission,and if one is successful a favourable reply could take two months to arrive.

In order to be successful one’s credentials must be of the highest order: be known as a reputable journalist and working for a reputable publication. The popular (highest circulation of all newspapers in France) Le Parisien is considered reputable.

If it’s a writer/author who applies for access to a police file, that writer must have at least a book considered serious to his/her name. And if the info which will be taken from the police file will be used in a book, then the writer will have to supply a publisher’s contract, and if possible also an agent’s contract.

Therefore freelance hacks and unknowns should not apply. Read: Yours truly.

Have a nice day.

6-12-2013 at 09:55:22


No, it was not I who asked that question, but thanks for the info anyway. 🙂

6-12-2013 at 10:12:03

Tim V – Check out also the good replies my queries got from Lars and See_Bee . I don’t agree with all and may take some of it up later, but I think the exchange illustrates the quandry we are all in – we each have to make judgement calls about who to believe and what about. I think that’s where the differences are between the various interpretation. lars tends to give credence to the 15:15PM photo because of the time specificity. I may tend to take it with a grain of salt because 91) I don’t trust much of what EM or his team say, and (2) – proof is in the pudding – show us the photo, never mind that “morbid” rubbish. same with WBM’s interview – how much and what to believe is the name of the game. I tend to believe him when he says he DID NOT make that 15;48PM call because to lie about that would be silly since the records are perfectly well available to the police. I think you tend to agree with that call. That however leaves that question as to why it was stated that he did make the call (originally) and why did he refuse to go along with that story line. For me, as you know already, everything starts from that point.

Details and judgement calls notwithstanding, I appreciated reading the detailed replies and interpretations by others. After all, having virtually none of the facts with any certainty gut level feelings and judgement calls (whether based on logical sequencing or psychological profiling ) is all we have to go on. i find great value in reading the different interpretations others have, whether or not any one argument is convincing.

Also BTW, if you check Lynda at 12:02:37AM – she gave a good accounting of the timeline, assuming Bossy and WBM were on the scene for 6-7 minutes and that a 15:48 call was made by one or the other. her backward time sequencing puts WBM on the scene kind of earlier than most of us would have him by 5-6 minutes. Problematic, I’d say, for our hero brett martin.

6-12-2013 at 10:15:21

Your Comments

6-12-2013 at 10:18:00

Sorry for the missed post. haste makes waste.

Question: has any one gotten access to that full Sunday Times article (ostensibly written by peter Allen)? I’d love to read through it but can’t get a one off – tried and it didn’t work – may be the different currency.

6-12-2013 at 12:21:58

@Mochyn69, I agree with your comments about the house in Claygate, it really all depends on who was/were the registered owners.

Now, if the details that FB have given relate to Saad or Saad and Iqbal being the only owners or whether they were noted on the documents along with Khadim for example this doesn’t make clear.

I am in full knowledge of the Bristish Laws of inheritance having been subject to them in the past.

I just wonder if and it is only if Saad benefitted entirely on the death of his mother, then maybe it was agreed that Zaid should benefit to a similar level upon the death of his father.

It does seem very odd that the house in Claygate should be left to just one of two sons without recompense.

I’ve also tried to get access to The Sunday Times and couldn’t. I suspect that and the Channel 4 programme may have made more sense if viewed together.

I have read in the Geneva press, that EM has stated that sooner or later Zaid will be interviewed as a suspect, this is under the French system.

I’ll have a look at Bibis link.

6-12-2013 at 13:09:03

@Bibi, the story is the same, British cyclist overtaken by the French cyclist who was killed.

She saw a ‘TTist’, could that have been Melvyn, the young giant. She didn’t see any cyclists.

Also, road blocks, I’ve mentioned this before, CS arriving at a road block, I bet the road blocks were put up way before the brown sign, probably in the centre of Chevaline and before Route du Moulin. Logic really, so Molliers route would have taken him passed one of these road blocks, cycling further around Les Bauges.

Regarding phone taps, according to the Channel 4 docu, the Schutz Mollier family had been under surveillance and phones tapped, they were not under arrest, so why not the same in the UK especially with wild accusations flying about.

6-12-2013 at 14:07:41

The funny thing about phone tapping in the UK is that Sections 17 and 18 of RIPA 2000 prohibit phone and postal interception evidence being adduced in open court

In other words, even if they had recordings of, er, someone thanking a Romanian contract killer for a job well done, they couldn’t use them in evidence.

I don’t know about France, but in Germany, authorities are by law required to inform the targets of phone interceptions afterwards. Seriously, you get a letter informing you that your phone was tapped between such-and-such dates but that police are now bored to death with your pathetic life, that your wife regularly cheats on you with her yoga coach, that your aunt claims that you are an alcoholic, that your children secretly despise you etc. etc. 😉

6-12-2013 at 15:18:01


Apropos that question I did not ask, I could ask a question regarding the same area.

If Maillaud decides to close the case without any result, will all the papers regarding the investigation automatically become available for the general public?

6-12-2013 at 15:19:04

@Linda. I don’t think the mountain biker that woman saw was the young giant as it was said he was riding an off-road 125 motorbike. I’ve read in the Jdd, sept 15th, that he had no insurance and anyway the motorbike was not allowed there. Having heard the shots and hearing the fire brigade he knew something serious had happened. As we know when firemen are called, police get the call as well, therefore he made a long detour not to be checked. I tend to believe that it could be the lad that put up that video “Saut honda cr – YouTube” (same name for a landscape gardener). While he would not have been fined by the onf guys (being a local… same village, maybe neighbours) he would have definitely have been fined by the gendarmerie.

6-12-2013 at 16:03:10

6-12-2013 at 10:12:03 as always I concur with your reasoning. I too have difficulties with that 3.15 photo for both positive and negative reasons. Negative in respect of the photo story and positive in respect of the opposing and incompatible timing. One thing is certain. If Laurent Fillion-Robin’s evidence is accurate, and he appears an eminently reliable witness to me, the alleged time on the alleged photo, cannot be true, unless the Al Hillis actually doubled back to Arnaud before ascending the combe. I would suggest this so unlikely as to be dismissable.

So in FAVOUR of SAH arrival time at Martinet of not later than 3.00 pm we have the evidence of a reliable witness that he passed them between 2.30 and 3.00, later confirmed to be closer to 3. The evidence is strengthened by the unimpeachable quality of the witness; the detailed nature of the report with accords with what is known; no attempt to over-egg the mix and admitting to what he didn’t see; the fact they had only just had their lunch break (a point of reference); the absence of traffic; a British RHD quality car with distinguishing features; the fact that he obstructed the passage of the car and had to take specific action to allow it to pass; the fact that others present at the time have not contradicted the account.

AGAINST the 3.15 pm photo (other than the above) the late announcement of it; the failure to publish it; the facile excuse for not doing so (“that it was too morbid”); the fact that if accurate it would necessitate SAH passing BOTH SM and WBM on the way up the Combe; that the 4×4 reported by WBM would literally have to have followed him up; the time frame is so tight (3.15 – 3.30 when shots were heard) as to make it highly unlikely. Remember time must be allowed at both ends to get people in the car and for SAH to park up and get out of the car before the killing can commence. If SAH overtook WBM we also have to pose the difficult question, why he didn’t mention this most significant fact?

The evidence, subject to its voracity, is overwhelmingly in favour of an arrival time at or before 3.00 pm.

Now as to the arrival time of WBM, this has drifted ever earlier in reports. It started out at “just before 4”, then to 3.48 to allow for the telephone call, then to “about 3.45” and slightly earlier. The latest most accurate suggestion came from the British police not long ago which stated he was “passed by a BMWX5 on the way up at about 3.20 when he was one kilometre into the Combe”. This was not contradicted by the French police although they allowed slightly wider time gap.

I went into detail about this on CM but briefly here it means that WBM must have arrived at the scene not later than 3.35 pm. This is based on his half hour estimate for the journey. If we assume he was referring Dhevaline village itself, and half an hour, 3.20 up the Combe approximates to half way – thus 3.35 arrival.

So we see if shots were heard by three people at about 3.30 WBM must arrive only moments after. This tends to be confirmed by his report of little Zainab who is still conscious but passes out almost immeciately. What is not so convincing in his story is the absence of the killers of whom I am sure he remembers more than he stated publicly.

So now returning to the point about the 3.48 call. I think I can fairly claim (unless anyone can show differently) that I was the first to flag up the implications of WBM’s denial that he had made it. It blew an Exocet through the French account of events. It could not have been accidental. The timing and nature of the call could not have been confused. Both you and I have suggested this was deliberate on the part of British authorities for debatable purposes.

If WBM did not make that first call, someone else had to be lined up to do it. This is where “Philippe Didierjean” came into play. He was now the person who made the first call at some point after their convoluted meeting. However as I discussed at the time, this still did not solve the problem as all the early reports put him arriving well after 4 to which had to be allowed further delays. Subtly this time was brought forward but if his story was to hold good he would have had to meet WBM not later than 3.45 which has never been suggested. The story is full of holes still.

Now, post Channel 4 film, we have “Phileppe BOSSY” arrive on the scene with more subtle variations to the story line that may be hinting at allowing this earlier arrival time, with no mention of a meeting in the Combe or returning to the scene.

From all of this I surmise SAH arrived at Martinet not later than 3 pm. The next to arrive was SM at about 3.25 immediately followed by the killers in a 4×4 UNLESS they had overtaken him as well as WBM as is now suggested and arriving just before him. The attack takes place for about a minute or two at 3.30. WBM arrives 3.35 the killers passing him on the way up and on the way back as he is arriving as indeed he says. This leaves time to do as he describes before aloowing him to make a call at 3.48 if he had been able but which of course he denies.

6-12-2013 at 16:10:01

Please forgive all the minor typing errors which hopefully will not be held too much against me!

6-12-2013 at 16:23:31

@Bibi, with the volume up I picked up the V! So not Melvyn.

She is implying that the VTTist said he saw the cyclist on the floor.

So, there is a missing witness from our point of view, as in someone else who approached the scene, but when ? Could he have come from above Martinet, although she says he came back down. It was reported that Martin and Bossy went to the nearest house to await the emergency services, so must have been Route du Moulin, although I’ve said this a while back.

This is the lady that was on her terrace of the farmhouse opposite the chalet the builders were working on who didn’t see the BMW or any cyclists pass by.

6-12-2013 at 16:26:47


Thanks for the post on access to the Police report.

So if JMD has had “official access” to said report, once permision has been granted, does the applicant get access on one occassion ( date) or can the applicant access the file on multiple occasions (dates) going foward from the grant date?

@Bibi 15:19:04
I agree with your post

6-12-2013 at 19:24:31

@ All

The recent “Bibi” link to a local TV report aired the day after is most interesting.
For those who aren’t fluent in French, let me point out two things then reported by live testimonies:

– the woman who tells about a THIRD cyclist (not MC, not anything else) says that person went up to Martinet but was ordered by authorities to ride down again immediately. She doesn’t name this third cyclist, she doesn’t specify a time, but when asked by the reporter whether that person had blood on his hands, she goes: “No, it’s the other one who did.” Probably referring to the British hero.

– even more questioning is the comment made by that local breeder, who complains that he was barred by Gendarmes from walking up the hill to attend to his cattle pasturing there, like he daily did. What he says is: ” I always go get them back in between 2:30 and 3:00, but because of the incident I had to wait until the next morning “. Unless we believe such a hillbilly cannot read his watch, this seems to imply the “crime scene” was already closed by that time. Whatever this implies.

6-12-2013 at 20:25:00

@ Eugene
Script of the farmer (here is a link for the interviews only:

– Nous on a un alpage dessus, là, juste au-dessus, là. On doit aller chercher les bêtes en montagne et, on devait y aller ce matin, et du coup, on peut pas monter parce que les routes sont coupées donc.
– C’est une vaste forêt ?
– C’est une vaste forêt et nous on a l’alpage…, on continue la route et on monte à notre alpage qui est dessus. Donc là, pour l’instant, on peut pas monter. Tout est bloqué, quoi. Normalement, on devait être sur plac…, Normalement hier après-midi on devait être… on devait être là-bas parce que je devais aller chercher des bêtes hier après-midi et j’ai décalé d’une journée donc sinon vers 2 heures et demi, trois heures on aurait été la-haut, donc on se serait trouvé en plein milieu de la fusillade, je pense. Donc ce qu’on se dit, on se dit on est passsé à coté, c’est tout.
– Avec le recul on se dit on a eu de la chance..
– Voilà, mais… oui.

They generally gather the cattle and bring it back for the winter, at the beginning of September. It takes time because they have to walk back with the cattle at their speed.
So, they had planed to go to the grazing fields, up the road, (around the col du Cherel as I understand), in the morning of the fifth, but they had postponed it, for waterver reason, they don’t name, for the day after, the sixth. So luckily they were not there, otherwise they should have been in the area, on the fifth at around half two or three. As for the sixth, day of the interview, they couldn’t go because the roads were blocked.

6-12-2013 at 20:31:23

@Eugene, she refers to the ‘Anglais’ but she didn’t see him.

The VTTist turned back round, because ‘gens’ people were already there.

She doesn’t say gendarmes, afterall if he encountered the bloody handed English cyclist and people going to stay on the mountain, it had to have been before the gendarmes arrived as Martin and Bossy did not wait at the scene.

So how did he only see the cyclist on the ground, when Zainab was there as well and SM apparently had been moved from the front of the car to the passenger side before Bossy arrived on the scene ?

Although, it is her account of someone elses account.

What I actually like about this early interview is that it puts Brett Martins testimony as being unchanged since the beginning, the hikers/overnighters, SM passing him.

But the cowman does say he goes to fetch the herd between 2:30/3pm, normally, but he didn’t that day. I can’t understand what he says, but he does say that had it been a normal day he would have been caught in amongst the shooting.

The road closure he refers to is the morning of the 6th and he wasn’t able to get the herd.

Put this in the mix and you have a daily passage of cows going down La Combe d’Ire, through Martinet, just how long would that take ? Say he left with them at 3pm from the fields above, certainly 4 or 5 kms, about an hour maybe ?

To me it points to an opportunist, what a risk to run otherwise !

6-12-2013 at 20:40:31

@Bibi, he doesn’t make reference to bringing the cows back for the winter at the beginning of September, whilst that may be true it is neither said nor implied.

Not knowing the calendar or habits of the inhabitants of Les Bauges, I thought bloody hell that’s a heck of a way to walk cattle everyday !

Maybe he was just being a bit sensationalist.

6-12-2013 at 21:16:00

@ Lynda
Yes, you are right, but I thought it was implied there: “On doit aller chercher les bêtes en montagne”: we have to go and fetch animals in the mountain… well…

6-12-2013 at 21:28:48

I tend to agree with Lynda.

I find it hard to believe that they walk the cattle that long every day, would keep them walking half the day. I don’t know what kind of cattle it is, but they might have to milk them somehow.

It also shows what stupid risks the perpertrator took, whether from Lebanon, Romania or Haute Savoie, he might have get stuck in a herd of cows. The only relatively safe way to get away from Martinet at that time of the day and that time of the year is obviously on foot.

6-12-2013 at 21:36:19

I wonder how many cows there are in those herds. Perhaps the number of bullets he carried could be explained by his fear of getting stuck with a herd of cows, but I guess that the perpetrator then also chose the wrong weapon.

6-12-2013 at 21:46:45

After a second thought I might, like Marilyn, have to change my mind.

I believe on the “famous” photograph when a herd of cows are passing the journalists at the sign in Chevaline, are not the cows walking towards the mountains? And that is after the 5th.

6-12-2013 at 22:02:46

A cow is a cow is a cow…

Just joking to lighten the mood.

And do you remember the cow dung?

Tomorrow is another day.

6-12-2013 at 22:06:50

@ Lars

In the photos by Philippe Desmazes (Getty / AFP), which I cannot link because gettyimages force-redirects me to their German site, the herd of cows is heading downhill, towards the village. They are also in no hurry whatsoever, by the looks of it.

Anyway, I don’t think that the killer carried so much ammunition because he feared getting stuck with a herd of cows: one can reason with a live cow, plead with her to give way, but a dead cow is just > 600 kilos of roadblock.

6-12-2013 at 22:08:36


Since you seem to understand french, could you take a crack at the time sequence, now with the third bicyclist added in? Also, you said something about brett martin’s story being “unchanged”. Not clear on that point?


This account Bibi brought in seems to contain quite a few new elements. I did not know for example that WBM and PB waited at a house, and did not come across the farmer’s story in any of the English accounts I read. With all the research so many people did in the early days of September – in both English and french – on several blogs – how could this particular account have been missed?

Especially the third bicyclist – first we all seemed to have heard of him was in the C4 documentary. And here is the account – in French – of just such an individual.

6-12-2013 at 22:12:08


This lot are going towards the bridge on Route de Moulin, in other photos they have passed from the other road across the grass verge.

“Le lieu du crime était plutôt connu jusqu’à présent comme le point de départ de ballades dans la nature, faciles à faire avec des enfants. ”

6-12-2013 at 22:21:27

There were no cows there Sunday, 27/4/13, between 2.30 and 3 pm.

In fact, nobody was there but me.


6-12-2013 at 22:30:17

Hmmm, the 15.15 pictures. I always took this timestamp for fact, and so ran into problems with either BM’s account and/or the 15.48 phone call. I also did favor the 15.48 timestamp and so, poor BM was ‘suspect’.

Suppose the 15.15 timestamp is ‘tweaked’ (and the rest, BM and 15.48 are ok, and the masons too, and the 15.20 BMW X5 and let’s put a little margin on the 15.30 ‘shots heard’ … what can we come up with?

Now, the 15.15 pictures timestamp could be ‘tweaked’ by EM … but why?

I have another bizarre idea:)

Suppose the 15.20 BMW X5 carried a UK killer X. But 15.15 pictures make it impossible for him to be X because BMW X5 was seen coming DOWN from Martinet at 15.20 (and according to 15.15 AH was not up at Martinet yet)

Now if 15.15 picture is ‘tweaked’ and in reality was say 14.50 … we could have had AH at Martinet at, say 15.10-15 and have him killed by Mr X in a BMW X5 RHD who got away and was seen by BM 15.20

Now RHD = UK … and perhaps X = UK

Perhaps X took the photo’s! (but tweaked the time of the camera prior and tweaked it back afterwards)

Now the photo’s were taken at 14.50 but show a timestamp of 15.15

AH goes up to Martinet. Photoman X follows AH, executes them 15.10 and drives down.

15.15 pictures give him an alibi in case he is caught. He isn’t caught yet as he has not come forward … nope, sure not, he is X:)

Perhaps X smashed in windows and/or opened the car to put back the camera … who knows?

– M

6-12-2013 at 22:38:34

In my above post make 14.50 into 14.30 pictures (real timestamp)

and ‘coup de feu’ (killing at martinet) not 15.30 but 15.15 (in between 15.00 and 15.30)

Both in line with above article

– M

6-12-2013 at 22:40:51

Last thought … If X did take 14.30 (15.15) pictures, the sure are MORBID;)

– M

6-12-2013 at 23:02:05

@Marlin, I live in France and am married to a Frenchman, although I admit that even after 17 years of being here I struggle with some accents.

Funny thing is that I saw the interview with the farmers wife at the time, but didn’t pay much attention.

I can’t see how my French will help any of the timelines, it just proves that someone else went up the Combe on a Velo Tout Terrain after the BMW, SM, BM and PB and his friends.

I say BMs story hasn’t changed as the woman was recounting the story the morning after the murders.

This story told to her by the VTT man, which says that he’d been told either by the English cyclist or someone else, that he arrived and discovered the scene, he put the child in the recovery position, went back downhill to call the emergency services where he met the people who were going to stay on the mountain overnight.

It must have been soon after the event as she says the guy had goose bumps.

She says a gite, now this could be her way of referring to the refuge chalets, although it could be that they were going to hike to the otherside of Les Bauges, stay in a Gite and then hike back the next day, I don’t know the answer to that one.

He says he saw a cyclist on the ground and the English cyclist with blood on his hands.

There is no mention of turning off the car engine, moving Mollier etc. but I doubt that it would have been relevant to this chap at the time as he recounted what happened straight afterwards – I suspect he’s local.

As much as Alex saw nobody, not even a cow on the 27th April, it really depends on when they get put out to grass. I live amongst farms, I’ve never noted the time the cattle get put out, but it always seems to relate to the warming of the atmosphere and by my old photos that isn’t a set day, probably the same for bringing them in or back to the farm permanently, I’m not referring to milking cows, but to beef cattle.

The only thing relevant is that there was another cyclist, who apparently has nothing to add, although his testimony to timings would be very interesting as he saw people on the scene, before or around the time of the call to the gendarmes.

6-12-2013 at 23:44:11

@Lynda, all,

I think that 3rd VTT guy as in … gives credit to BM and PD/PB stuff

The whole thing is very fresh, telling what the ‘VTT man’ appearently saw. And probably the VTT man heard stuff from ??? BM? PD? as I understand the VTT man recall what happened, which he must have heard from BM/PD but not from the gendarmes

Unless BM had prepared a whole story, I think (now) that BM (and perhaps PD) just told what he had seen and the VTT man picked this up.

As said, I sound untinkered and gives credit to BM’s and PD’s account

(no mention of AH, but a mention of SM ‘overtaking’ BM)

Hmm with this and the posts above … I now also in the ‘camp’ where the 1515 pictures are suspect.

So .. what IS the story about those 1515 pictures????

– M

6-13-2013 at 03:10:25

OK – here is my take on the ‘VTT man’ narrative.

I think, and have always thought, that BM was a “gold standard” witness i.e. given the circumstances, the best one could hope for.

The only inconsistency that VTT highlights again is the SM doubler issue.

Note that BM stated, not that he was overtaken by SM, but rather used the phrase “I’d seen the cyclist ahead of me much earlier”.

Given his background, I think that BM would be very, very careful in his testimony on camera and, even if ordered to lie by a legitimate authority, would try to do so by omission or some other means rather than a barefaced lie.

So when BM stated that he met P(D/B) and the two ladies three to four hundred yards down from Martinet and asked them “did they have a phone– a signal – and therefore could they phone the rescue services, which they did” I tend to believe him.

Note that BM states that the phone call (presumably 15:48) was made before he and P(D/B) walked up to Martinet.

What does ‘VTT man’ add other than yet-another-cyclist as a possible intended target?

Well, the narrative does confirm the existance of the two un-identified ladies accompanying P(D/B) and also the blood on the hands. I guess that EM has gleaned somewhat more from VTT man’s witness statement.

Incidently, an important point, EM has been pushing RHD=UK real hard – but it isn’t necessarily so – Ireland is also RHD.

[…] >more […]

6-13-2013 at 08:17:02

The abbreviations …

What is P(DB)?

What is RHD?

What is a VTT man?

What kind of speak is this? Remember there are people worldwide reading this blog and their mother tongue is not English, so please bear them in mind.

Reading some comments is at times a puzzlement.

6-13-2013 at 08:40:26

PD, PB, RHD and VTT are abbr’s so that PRISM easily can decode our investigations;) Where PRISM stands for Public Research Into Savoie Murders.

RHD=Right Hand Drive (aka UK car, where aka=Also Known As)
VTT=Velo Toutes Terrain (aka ATB aka ‘moutain bike’)
VTT man=The 3rd (third) cyclist (after SM and BM) who shortly after the killings saw BM and PD and gave a fresh account to/heardby the woman on video below

– M (aka Max)

6-13-2013 at 08:42:14

Re the “3.15pm” photo, can someone remind me, was it taken on Iqbal’s camera or phone?
I’ve often wondered if it was really taken at 2.15pm and the time hadn’t been changed in France or for daylight saving time, although I do realise I think I’m going the wrong way re time differences etc.
I still give BM a pass, he really didn’t have to give a TV interview, knowing everything he said would be scrutinised for discrepancies. He could have kept quiet like Phillipe Bossy (sp)

6-13-2013 at 08:56:36

@Lynda and all,

As I understand (but not native french) the woman when asked ‘what the VTT man saw’ replies:

He saw a biker on the ground (SM) … not much more because he went down because he was directed down/away by ‘others’.

She adds: Perhaps there were ‘gens’ sur place

(I think ‘gens’ = gendarmes)

But 99,9% sure is that the VTT man saw the body of SM on the ground(!)

I think he must have been watching from a distance, and Martinet was already being ‘sealed off’. Because if the VTT man would have been closer he surely would have seen inside the BMW

– M

6-13-2013 at 09:32:51



Get it?

Thanks for your reply, Max. I worked out that a VTT was a bicycle, but you know to me a bicycle is a bicycle is a bicycle. I was last on one the last day at school when I thought that I was then to be a lady and ladies did not ride bicycles…

If all of you can try to loosen up a little with the abbreviations for the sake of our N.E.S followers. (Non-English-Speaking.) You can continue with using initials though for people.

I will now say g/b/t/l.

6-13-2013 at 09:42:35

@Sarah and all

I think that the source article on the 1515 pictures is from M6

dated oct 12th

After that on oct 14th, EM confirms this in e.g.

From M6:

La reconstitution des faits indique d’ores et déjà que les touristes anglais se sont arrêtés vers 15 heures dans le hameau d’Arnand tout près de la combe d’Ire. A 15 h 15 précises, Suhaila al-Allaf, 74 ans, la belle-mère, a pris une photo de la famille. « Ils semblaient tous décontractés. Le papa avait un sourire radieux, il n’était aucunement inquiet », se souvient une riveraine. La famille reprend alors la route. Après 25 minutes de trajet, la BMW était criblée de balles à Chevaline par un tireur muni d’un luger, une arme de poing qui a équipé les armées allemande et suisse jusqu’en 1949. Toujours selon nos informations, le 4X4 vert aperçu par plusieurs témoins quelques minutes après le drame, a été mis hors de cause. Il s’agirait d’un véhicule de l’Office National des Forêts (ONF), dont le conducteur a été entendu. La moto blanche qui suivait ce 4X4 est en revanche toujours recherchée.

6-13-2013 at 09:45:19

@Sarah and all,

The 1515 pictures seemed to have been revealed by M6 on oct 12th

La reconstitution des faits indique d’ores et déjà que les touristes anglais se sont arrêtés vers 15 heures dans le hameau d’Arnand tout près de la combe d’Ire. A 15 h 15 précises, Suhaila al-Allaf, 74 ans, la belle-mère, a pris une photo de la famille. « Ils semblaient tous décontractés. Le papa avait un sourire radieux, il n’était aucunement inquiet », se souvient une riveraine. La famille reprend alors la route. Après 25 minutes de trajet, la BMW était criblée de balles à Chevaline par un tireur muni d’un luger, une arme de poing qui a équipé les armées allemande et suisse jusqu’en 1949. Toujours selon nos informations, le 4X4 vert aperçu par plusieurs témoins quelques minutes après le drame, a été mis hors de cause. Il s’agirait d’un véhicule de l’Office National des Forêts (ONF), dont le conducteur a été entendu. La moto blanche qui suivait ce 4X4 est en revanche toujours recherchée.

Only on oct 14th, EM confirms

6-13-2013 at 10:24:02

@ Max

I think that the VTT man may well be the witness, or one of the witnesses, who saw that ominous grey BMW X5. WBM himself did *not see* that BMW X5, he saw an ONF vehicle, although the ONF folk say that they didn’t see him.

If the killer was in a car of any kind, he would have to have been completely insane to park it at the Martinet. With so many non-bovine potential witnesses around, the chances are that someone might have seen the car and provided a good description, if not noted the number plates. As his safest direction of flight was downhill, towards Chevaline, he could therefore have left the car a few hundred metres down the road, parked it out of sight, and walked the last bit, using the footpath running parallel with the road.

Taking the same route on the way back to the car after the murders, WBM and Bossy would not have seen him, because he wasn’t using the road. The third cyclist, however, who arrived a few minutes later than WBM and Bossy, could have seen the killer after he had retrieved his car from its hiding place further down the road.

6-13-2013 at 10:34:19


Watch Alex’s video.
Where do you park a car “out of sigh” ?

6-13-2013 at 10:35:10

Sloppy copying should be “out of sight”! 🙂

6-13-2013 at 11:25:45

@ Lars

I am watching it even now 😉

There are several tracks visible in the video that are not shown on Google Maps. At 08:33, there is a mud track branching off towards the right (i. e., west) with tyre tracks on it that is not shown on Google Maps. At 09:05, there is a gravel track on the left (east). At 09:31, there is a mud track on the left – steep, but certainly feasible in an X5.

Google Maps just doesn’t tell the full story regarding routes of ingress and egress.

6-13-2013 at 11:27:19


As I have now posted on several occasions I see no reason to change my timeline.

As you know from my posts, I accepted BM account for the reasons I have previously stated, I have also have accepted the photos at 15:15

You need to be carefull with the jounalistic reporting about the “search for the ”
new” BMW X5 that appeared around the end of April.
See the extract (and link) from “The Express” bellow and note that the quote is “was being driven on the Combe d’Ire Road, Chevaline, at around 3.20”. There is no mention of the direction( up or down) of the Vehical on Combe d’Ire or the identity of the witness who saw it. Either EM has another, previously undisclosed, witness, placed within sight off, or on Combe d’Ire, or this is further disclosure from a known witness that was witheld from the public domain. It could be that this information is from BM’s’ “detailed” police statement

From both our timeliness we have SAH at the sign at the bottom of Combe’d’Ire. At around or shortly before this time. I do not buy that it was a sighting of SAH as the colour is wrong. The colour is right for 4×4#1(technicolour) that BM saw later (see my timeline on previious thread). I currently belive that the 15:20 sighting is this vehical (4×4#1 technicolour) going UP Combe d’Ire either in before SAH or following him up as illustrated in my timeline.

29th April 2013r
Officers are keen to speak to the owner of a right-hand drive 4×4 vehicle, possibly a grey, black or dark-coloured BMW X5, which was being driven on the Combre d’Ire Road, Chevaline, at around 3.20pm on September 5×4-plea

6-13-2013 at 11:42:50

@ Lars, all

In order to save you the hassle of having to go over Alex’ video again, I have prepared some stills showing those three tracks that I cannot recall seeing on any map of the area.

6-13-2013 at 11:53:02


Sorry but I don’t believe you are right.

The road at 9:05 is the connection to the parallell road and there we already have the ONF car and the MC. The others are mud roads as can be seen on the video.

Apart from that how fast do you imagine the perpetrator was running to reach these mud roads or the the crossing and not meeting Brett-Martin or Bossy?

6-13-2013 at 11:53:15


re: Imageshack

This is wonderful!!!!!! Thank you so very much. It shows clearly how (1) narrow that road is; (2) in what a bad state it is and (3) how dense the forest it.

Was it easy to do? I’m asking because our other commentators could do something similar with photos they come across, or take.

6-13-2013 at 12:02:04

@ Marilyn

Thank you. It is very, very easy to do – and indeed other commentators have already done it using other image hosts.

@ Lars

You may have the ONF and the MC on the connection to the parallel road, I’m not sure that I do 😉 Anyway, the area in which these three tracks are is tiny. The connection to the parallel road is circa 500 metres from the Martinet. Unless the perpetrator fled uphill, it stands to reason that he did not use the main road, but kept on one of these tracks. He probably even saw WBM and Bossy coming.

6-13-2013 at 12:12:33


With regard to your comments v the 4×4. I agree with you and posted what I belive to be the “most likely senario” in the previous thread.

I stated that the 4×4 was backup to MC#1 and MC#2 and was parked below Martinett where there is a good view down the Combe d’Ire. (This was discussed in detail at the time and i identified the location).

Also if you look back, I have posted a link to a map that gives detail of all the tracks in that area.

ONF …I don’t belive that BM states he saw a ONF 4×4!

6-13-2013 at 12:27:54

@ See_Bee

If you mean this map
that doesn’t give any more detail than Google Maps.

Perhaps I am being obtuse, but using Alex’ arrival time of 10:20 at the Martinet in the video, giving him an average speed of 36 km/h = 10 m/sec and working back from that where those mud tracks are approximately, I don’t think that I have seen those tracks on any map.

You are right that WBM didn’t say in his interview that he saw an ONF vehicle. However, investigators have concluded that this must have been what he saw, even though the ONF guys don’t recall (or didn’t recall initially) seeing him.

6-13-2013 at 12:40:04


No I don’t have a ONF car and a MC on the RF, Brett-Martin has.

If they did not come from the crime scene, without doing anything, the only probable solution is the crossing.

Though I prefer to disregard these vehicles since I don’t find Brett-Martin credible.

I think you will have great problems with that timeline.

6-13-2013 at 12:45:41

There has been many exotic countries mentioned concerning the perpetrator’s origin. Perhaps we should add Etiopia to that list since they are often the best long distance runners, even better than those Nigerians. 🙂 (There are competitions in the Diamond League this evening from Oslo, so you can watch for yourself).

6-13-2013 at 12:50:47

@Max, she does say ‘gens’, people, I can’t pick up that she said he was directed to return, but returned downhill on seeing people there.

When asked if English cyclist had blood on his hands, he said alot, so he must have seen BM at some point.

The other thing that is odd is that he didn’t see much only the cyclist on the ground. So, that means that at that point certainly part of the body of SM was visible from the road leading up to Martinet, but in her interview she makes no reference that he saw the child, who was in front of SM and the car from that angle.

She also says two incidents, after saying how quiet Chevaline is, obviously refers to the young woman found dead in the woods, here is a comment picked up from Europe 1:

‘par archi44 à 15:27 le 06/09/2012
Patelin bizarre

Sympa, j’ai passé mes vacances la bas il y a un mois. même camping et même promenade… ça fait flipper. Dailleur lorsque nous nous étions promener dans le village de la Chevaline il y avait une croix dans les bois indiquant le décès d’une fille en juin 2012. Je ne connais pas la raison de son décès non plus… Ballade vide de monde alors que la région est bondé de touriste…’

@SeeBee, with respect, unless you were there, as for all of us it is suposition, no matter how plausible.

I have always felt that BM was telling as near to the truth as he was allowed, none of us have picked up that Bossy said that by where SM’s bike was he must have gone to the aid of the occupants in the car – that really plays into EM’s hands as the Al-Hillis being the targets.

It was reported that the witness who saw the BMW X5 around 15:20 was an employee of the ONF.

6-13-2013 at 12:52:13

@ Lars

I’m not even trying to construct a timeline. I shall gladly leave that task in more capable hands such as your own.

All I’m saying is that, if I were the killer, I should have done the entire thing on foot, knowing that I would be safely back home, or back in my hotel, long before the police had got the first helicopter in the air.

This mystery grey X5 adds another element to the plot, however. If it exists, if it isn’t merely a case of someone mistaking SAH’s own car for something else, it needs to be accounted for, as needs the fact that neither WBM nor Bossy saw it, whereas somebody else did. The solution that I have proposed is that the killer walked the first bit downhill (that last mud track in the video is only about 300 metres away from the Martinet as the crow flies), checked that the coast was clear, and then drove away, or was driven away, in that waiting X5. I don’t particularly like that hypothesis, either, to be honest.

6-13-2013 at 13:06:03


(first sorry for the double post … site did not publish my post instantly, thta’s why)

I have a question to ALL. A simple question.

BM saw a 4×4 and after that a MC … both coming down from direction Martinet.

Now, the investigators are looking for a BMW X5 RHD (Combe d’Ire 15.20)
But they are NOT looking for the MC (which I guess must be Combe d’Ire 15.25)

Question: What happened to that MC??

Is MC accounted for?

If yes, who is it?
If no, why not look for the MC as well?

I would like feedback, as perhaps I’ve missed something

– M

6-13-2013 at 13:31:25

I always understood the 9:05 / the second Imageshack photo as the “ONF crossing”.


6-13-2013 at 13:52:29

@ Alex

You are right, and Lars has already pointed this out. I have now also been able to find that first mud track #1 on the map (I think). Only the last one, #3, the closest one to the Martinet, is not on the map.

If that track leads to the Martinet, which I have no way of knowing, then I would say that this is the route that a killer on foot would probably have taken.

6-13-2013 at 14:18:11

Re : access to police files

I thought it was Lars who had asked me how one went about getting access to a police ‘dossier’, but it now looks as if see_bee had done so.

To reply to the questions which were asked by them after they’d read my info.

A police file is a massive thing that comes to thousands, even tens of thousands, of pages and the police will understand that no one would be able to go through everything in a day. So I would say that they will allow one a period of time to come in each day and study the file. There would however be a time limit to how long one would have access to a file: say 2 weeks rather than 2 months or 2 years. This means that once the permission period is over, one would have to reapply for access.

As I’ve said in my previous post on this subject, access is not easily granted. There would be a no-discussion refusal for access to some files, those which are classified as ‘sensitive’. For example the file of Merah the Toulouse shooter, and the current files of the Tapie Case and the Sarkozy Case, and the past one of the Chirac Case. I would say that another dossier to which access would be refused is the current one concerning the investigation into the death of Arafat.

I know just one journalist who was given partial access to a police file. I do not want to name him, but he is a reputable French journalist and writer and the file he had access to was that of the murder of Princess Diana. He was though allowed to see only certain documents. He had to say what he wanted to know and those files were handed to him.

It’s a very different story in the UK. (About the US I do not know.) The 870-page Paget Report of the British investigation into the death of Diana and Dodi was made public and published on the Internet. So too were the thousands of pages of transcripts which covered the daily hearings from October 2 2007 to April 7 2008 of the inquest into her death under the authority of Lord Justice Scott Baker. The French, on the contrary, did not make public the files of their investigation. I did however have access to some of the documents, but not through the normal channels. The Paget Report and the inquest transcripts, by the way, were removed from the Internet last year.

I do not call the Le Parisien journalist a liar for claiming he had access to the Chevaline file, but I think he had seen only a few documents of that file. You can think for yourself that if he did indeed have access to the entire file then we would now know what Zainab had seen and heard that day because it will be in the file. We will also have answers to what we still do not know and are discussing here on this blog. For example: (1) who was shot first; (2) was the killer on foot or in a vehicle; (3) who reached the lay-by first and at what time. Etc. Etc.

6-13-2013 at 15:41:03

Many thanks for your very informative post v jounalistic access…certainly answers all my questions on that particular topic.

6-13-2013 at 17:21:03

6-13-2013 at 13:06:03 – Given that police must have been in possession of the 4X4 and MC information less than an hour after they were witnessed, you would have expected an urgent alert to go out to all officers in shall we say a 50 mile radius. There is no indication this in fact happened. There is no conventional policing reason for this not being done. Instead we have Maillaud producing unconvincing excuses to the press for the vagueness of the description and excusing WBM’s memory/detail. The fact that it takes eight months to report the distinctive features of a dark RHD BMWX5 when this must have been known at the time, beggars belief. At no time have the authorities attempted to explain the many variations of vehicle description put out or how the green Pajero can be reconciled with a dark BMWX5. The explanation of a forestry vehicle raises more questions than it answers.

As I mentioned elsewhere, standard practise for criminals is to steal a car for a crime then “torch” it afterwards. There has been no such report so we must assume that the stated vehicle was around for some time unless it dived into a garage somewhere. Anyway undercover agents tend to use use clapped out vehicles for operations to be less to be less conspicuous. In this regard the Peugeot 206/306 is a much better fit. Terrorists on the other hand have a tendency to blow the vehicle up with those inside it or at least make propaganda point by accepting responsibility. All these factors increasingly point to state involvement.

6-13-2013 at 17:28:45


Hi Jan, To protect your confidentiality (and privacy) I am not giving your surname, but when you read this message you will know it is meant for you.

You emailed me privately to my website and you made a very interesting suggestion in that email. I emailed you back but my email bounced back. The email address was ‘unknown’. You must have created it just to send me that email.

I therefore have no other way to contact you than on this blog.

I can of course copy and paste here from your email, but that would not be a very nice thing to do, would it?

Come on Jan, you were the one who alerted us to the similarities between the death of Xavier Baligant and the Al-Hillis and Sylvain Mollier. When you did (soon after the Chevaline shooting) no one had remembered the Baligant Case. Some London newspapers then read this blog and they immediately headlined that whoever it was who had shot Xavier Baligant had also shot the Al-Hillis and Sylvian Mollier.

You will know what ‘suggestion’ I am talking about and I would like you to repeat it again now here on this blog. I know all our commentators would love to hear it too, and discuss it.

Hope to hear from you … Thanks!

6-13-2013 at 17:34:15


I will this weekend open another thread so that I can change the heading. My wordpress, like a stubborn child, is refusing to allow me to change it on this thread. The Philippe D is rather dated now, isn’t it? So you will agree with me that I ought to change the heading. Any ideas what the new heading should be? It should be one that will clearly describe to those looking for Al-Hilli news what we are discussing here. Thanks.

6-13-2013 at 18:27:45


You can naturally think about how to get as many readers as possible on this blog, or how people searching information on the Chevaline killings shall find this blog, but otherwise for me


is enough, you can then only number them


and so on.


6-13-2013 at 21:22:30


re: heading

Thanks, Lars. Keep it simple. I agree.

Will do so over the weekend.

6-13-2013 at 21:40:38

@Lynda – 6-13-2013 at 12:50:47

Lynda, you wrote:-

“none of us have picked up that Bossy said that by where SM’s bike was he must have gone to the aid of the occupants in the car”

Good point, but Bossy’s statement does not make sense to me. I assume he saw SM’s bike where BM described it.

The implication of Bossy’s statement is that the BMW of SH was in its final (pictured) position and that the shooting was already in progress.

From an account I read from someone who heard the shots (cannot immediately find it, but it may have been Melvyn’s father) they seem to have been fired at a steady pace over a period of maybe 45 seconds.

Anyway one block of roughly continuous firing. So I assume that SH and family were not murdered, then a gap, then SM turns up, goes to their aid and is shot 7 times.

Allowing for re-loading the rate of fire is approx 1 every 2 seconds.

So, now comes the problem, a maximum of approx 30 seconds of shooting could have taken place before SM arrived in which case SM would have had plenty of time to hear what was happening and flee.

Are we really to suppose that SM arrives after SH has been shot and got into his car, but before the poor victims have been shot in the head, and that SM places his bike on the verge and intervenes in a massacre?

It is just possible that he is unlucky enough to arrive in that time slot of no return i.e. not possible to stop and turn around due to momentum so he decides to intervene, in which case he was extremely brave.

In which case why didn’t the shooter see SM cycling up the hill?

6-13-2013 at 22:30:51


Thanks. I’m not the ‘state business’ man, unless of course Morange is ‘in’;)

I’m more the down to earth guy. I have perhaps a scenario which can explain all.

1. 1515 is correct
2. BM is correct
3. 1548 is correct but signifies the first attempt or whatever (arond when BM meeet PD)

From this follows that the shooting was at 15.30

Now assume:

4. 4×4 and/or MC (both seen by BM coming down) carries X

From this follows that BM seeing 4×4/MC is about 15.35

From this also follows that BM arrives at Martinet between 15.40-15.45 … which is compatible with ‘Half hour trip’ by BM starting in Arnand/Chevaline and him missing to spot AH

So far so good


A. WHAT ABOUT THE BMW X5 15.20 Combe d’Ire
B. And what about the investigators NOT ASKING FOR the MC??

Possible answers:

A. The investigators ask a simple question. What goes up must come down!. Now BM saw 4×4 coming down at est 15.35 … The investigators simply ask if anybody saw that same BMW X5 GOING UP … and estimate that at 15.20 (yup, around the time AH also went up)

(this makes sense)

B. So, why not ask for the notorius MC? … Because it is accounted for. It was seen on Col the Cherel(!) … I know, the timestamp is wrong, but perhaps after more research, the investigators concluded that the ColDeCherel MC is in fact the same as the MC which BM saw coming down!

In this way all vehicles are accounted for … and that ONF business was perhaps about that ColDeCherel MC … which makes sense because that could be why EM ‘labels’ the MC as ‘accounted for’

If all the above is true (and it could be so) then it seems that the investigators are still on a UK track, because they are after the notorious RightHandDrive BMW X5

To me the case is wide open, but at least above ‘explanation’ of all elements makes sense to me, and the only thing which has to be ‘tweaked’ is the ColDeCherel MC timestamp

– M

6-13-2013 at 23:29:22

Max your scenario at 22.30 makes sense for me .
I’ve eliminated any idea that SAH was there for a meeting.
Being a fan of “Occams Razor” I can,t get past the U K connection.
Why does Zaid deny a dispute, why is he not outraged at losing his only brother, why won’t he go to France to answer questions.

6-14-2013 at 04:37:01

The search at Claygate extended from 08 to approx. 25 Sept., around two weeks.

“They arrived the home in Oaken Lane, Claygate on Saturday (September 8) to search documents which may lead to new clues as to who carried out the shootings.”

“Tuesday, September 25, 2012, 10:21
Police have been searching their home over the past fortnight. At one stage power tools were used to crack open a safe at the property but nothing significant is believed to have been found.”

“A bomb squad was also alerted after a suspicious item was found in an outbuilding, but the device was soon found to be non-suspicious.”

“The Press Association reports that the police investigation at the Hillis’ house appears to be focusing on a shed or workshop at the bottom of the garden.”

“The BBC said neighbours told it that the workshop has a system of “elaborate electronic locks”.”
@ 11.43am BST

@FB – Above true or sensationalism?

“… police were now seeking the driver of a right-hand-drive BMW X5 spotted moments before the killings, to come forward.”

“The grey, black or dark coloured 4×4 vehicle was being driven on the Combre d’Ire Road, Chevaline at around 3.20pm on September 5.”

“”I am particularly keen to speak to any owner of such a vehicle who visited the towns of Doussard or Chevaline on the afternoon of September 5 as they may be able to provide vital information to assist with this ongoing joint investigation.”

Various media reports of the police request for info on the RHD BMW X5 give the time either as 15:20 or some number of minutes before the assumed time of the murders or a range of times, 15:15 to 15:25.

As Rashomon said above, RHD doesn’t necessarily mean England, it could be Ireland. Are there many UK cars sold used in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe. For example, there’s a huge export market for used vehicles from Japan to Russia?

6-14-2013 at 08:15:28

@ NR

Luxury 4x4s such as the BMW X5 and the Porsche Cayenne are incredibly popular across all of Eastern Europe and the CIS states. This is partly due to the condition of the roads, partly to their concept of what is known as “bella figura” or “face” in other cultures: People prefer owning a fancy car and wearing flashy clothes, conspicuous consumption, to doing up their homes.

In the more affluent and westernized of these countries, including Romania, those cars will mostly have been legally purchased from new and will be LHD; in the others, they have been nicked elsewhere, often with the connivance of their previous owners. RHD BMW X5s are a common sight on the streets of the former Soviet Republics – nicked in the UK, done up in Poland, then sold on there.

6-14-2013 at 08:30:51

@Max, 22:30:51

re your answer (possible) A about the BMW X5: you seem to be suggesting that the 4×4 car (+MC) WBM saw coming down (you say at around 15:35PM. not sure why that time) was the BMW X5 seen going up at around 15:20PM (estimated time). is that correct? well, anything is possible, but, don’t forget that WBM also said he saw a car going UP (and a MC), in which case we have four cars to account for now, if we include SAH’s BMW as yet another one. That’s a lot of cars – and if some are the same 9say the cars BMW saw go up and the one coming down) that leaves the newly reported BMW X5 (5 months after the fact!!) as the odd car out. In any case, incredible traffic up the Combe d”Ire that afternoon: 3-4 cars, 1-2 MC’s and 3 Bikers.

i know EM mentioned that one of the cars (the Pajaro?) was forestry. Much hinges on whether we believe EM, isn’t it so? so whether or not we accept his account is pretty much a judgement call – like almost anything else he chose to reveal – or not.

You also now cast doubt on the 15:15Pm photo time stamp (a doubt I and many others share). you gave some good arguments for scenarios that are possible IF that time is moved earlier. Problem is – we are back to EM’s credibility – if such time stamp scenario occurred to you, it would no doubt occur to him.

In which case we must wonder – if the 15:15PM put out is known to be false – by the investigating french authorities, no less, then that has implications, no? I just don’t quite believe the totally incompetent EM theory. Stretches credulity.

I realize people here are not enamored with state agent perpetrator theories. At this stage however, I don’t see how anything or anyone can be ruled out. I certainly don’t rule out a criminal element (though the “lone psychpath” seems quite far fetched – nothing seems very psychopathic about the killing, or its aftermath), including one or more hit men working for eg someone in France or UK. I believe that whatever theory one favors, there is evidence of some cover-up because of the many crime investigation aspects that don’t add up. Unfortunately, there seems to be very little that can be cobbled up about the motive(s). opportunity – yes; means – yes; but motive? only speculations at this time..

6-14-2013 at 08:33:07

I seem to be mixing WBM (for William brett martin) and BMW (easy to do!). Sorry about that – hope it’s clear which was meant where.

6-14-2013 at 08:55:42

NR you are back.

Whatever is on wheels thieves find irresistible here in France.The police just arrested 3 men (the eldest is 31) who had stolen thousands of bicycles in Paris these past 2 months. They went out every night thieving and each had to steal several bikes a night.

I don’t believe the ‘eye witness’ reports we’ve had this month about bicycles and cars in and around the murder lay-by the day of the shootings. A lot of people are suddenly recalling a lot of things.

Marlin, WBM, BMW – yes can be confusing. I am trying to get you all to take it easy on the abbreviations. When I see a string of abbreviations I do not read on and I’ve received emails from visitors to the blog who have complained about it too.


hand – and no — that means have a nice day. I will not reveal what bfn means.

6-14-2013 at 09:15:07


Did BM also see a car going UP??????

That is new to me (perhaps I’m getting old, could be;) … do you have a source link?

– M

6-14-2013 at 11:09:04

“The BBC said neighbours told it that the workshop has a system of “elaborate electronic locks”.”

Saad built the shed and fitted it out
there were 4 desks each with a workstation
a couple of paper plotters and metal cabinets full of bits and bobs
it had dado trunking with rj45 cables which terminated near the door as we never finished wiring it
most recently Ikbal had taken it over to study/practice dentistry
and an eye witness told me that the “suspicious item” that was removed was Ikbals dentistry dummy head and shoulders

[14/01/2011 11:12:15] saad: ikbal is studying all weekend with her study partner on the manakin in the office
[14/01/2011 11:12:34] saad: we have a whole doctors outfit there now
[14/01/2011 11:12:51] F B: tooth dust everywhere ?

6-14-2013 at 11:40:51

@Max and Marlin,

All the talk about cars, up, down, parked.

As far as I can recall, Brett Martin was ‘croisee’ by a dark or green 4×4 and shortly afterwards a MC, although I have seen mention of car and motorbike going uphill in other places, this is not how it was originally reported, I suspect it was a journalist being a bit over keen to go to print and not doing very well in French, or just a misunderstanding by posters.

Brett Martin saw the above as they ‘crossed’ him, he going up, they going down.

The ‘Pajero’ was black, was seen going in the direction of Lyon and according to Maillaud had nothing to do with the incident.

Brett Martin never did say it was a Forestry vehicle he saw, that was the enquiry team and Maillaud as detailed in a previous link.

The following motorbike was light or white.

The 15:20 sighting of the dark grey X5 type RHD vehicle has been attributed to a ONF employee, circulating along the Combe d’Ire.

Just a thought here, if you go to Bibis post and look at the forestry vehicle parked on the Route du Moulin, number 7, it would be very difficult to mix this ‘Land Rover’ with a modern sleek BMW X5. The front grill is infinitely different and it has the logo on the front side of the vehicle.

This doesn’t explain whether the X5 was seen going up, going down or parked by the ONF employee.

6-14-2013 at 11:43:03

@ Max, 6-13-2013 at 22:30:51

One motorcycle is also unaccounted-for. BMW X5 + 1 motorcycle = 2 unaccounted-for vehicles.

However, it is not entirely clear *which* motorcycle that is: the one that WBM ecountered going downhill, the one seen on Col de Cherel, or both (in the sense that they are one and the same).

I reckon that investigators have focused on the BMW X5 in their appeal because they are keen to pursue any UK links, which a right-hand-drive car might suggest, and because that light-coloured motorcycle with the large panniers has been sought for months, without any results.

6-14-2013 at 11:46:51


The point about Bossy and Sylvain Mollier ‘going to their aid’ is that was how he interpreted the situation upon his arrival, I assume everyone accepts this account as it has not been brought up in discussion.

Whereas, Brett Martins first thought that there had been an accident involving the cyclist and a car is dismissed as being an untruth.

Both of them were recounting their first thoughts, before the facts were known.

6-14-2013 at 11:50:09
6-14-2013 at 11:56:16

A quote from The Daily Express:

“And Allen’s own investigations revealed that the cyclist was involved in a bitter inheritance dispute of his own.

A divorced factory worker and father of two teenage sons, Mollier had lately had another son with a new partner, Claire Schutz, who was 16 years younger than him and in the process of taking over her parents’ lucrative pharmacy business.

He had just arranged to take a three-year break from his own job, effectively living off his partner, and her family was unhappy.

Mollier’s brother Christopher said recently: “Both Claire’s parents are approaching retirement and have been extremely successful and they wanted Claire to take charge. She’s a qualified pharmacist and worked for them. Sylvain had been through a difficult divorce and had a lot of financial commitments so naturally was very happy with the development. However there were serious frictions between the Molliers and Claire Schutz’s family.”

The two families have now cut all ties and only one of Mollier’s four siblings was invited to his funeral by Claire’s father Thierry, who took charge of the arrangements and buried him in a secret ceremony.”

@Marilyn, the journalist Peter Allen is a Correspondent in PARIS !

@Lars, you mentioned the lack of family at the funeral before – the funeral took place on the 17th September, so only 12 days after the murder of their brother, the families had fallen out.

6-14-2013 at 12:32:48


I can’t prove anything since the Mollier family is not talking, but I believe that there are signs that the discord between the families is much older than that. Perhaps it goes back to at least 2009 when Claire Schulz was starting to become friends with members of the Mollier family.

6-14-2013 at 12:52:24

@Lars, interesting ……. different social classes coming into play ? And of course before Roger, his father died.

As an aside, I think the Saad/Zaid falling out is older than since the death of Khadim, but in reality that isn’t so rare amongst siblings !

Maybe Saads mother was disappointed Zaid married a British girl, although I don’t know if she converted to Islam before that event.

No offence FB, just a personal thought as to the family dynamics. I have a very difficult brother, but he’ll say it’s my fault as I’m my Dads favourite, where he was always my late mothers baby boy and was spoilt rotten, as I say family dynamics.

6-14-2013 at 13:15:17


I had read that article a long time ago. One of the reasons/building blocks why I constructed the ‘mask’ theory

Btw, you/yourbrother, Saad/Zaid … that is ‘family dynamics’ … however Schutz/Mollier is another ‘dynamic’, namely between DIFFERENT families;)

– M

6-14-2013 at 13:26:43


I believe that FB has already indicated that the discord between the brothers was of an older date.

But I let FB affirm that or say it is wrong.

6-14-2013 at 13:41:25


Maybe Saads mother was disappointed Zaid married a British girl, although I don’t know if she converted to Islam before that event. –

So tell me when Zaid got married ?

6-14-2013 at 13:42:05

@Lars, yes, the Christopher quote was a while ago but this is copied from The Daily Express article of two days ago from the link posted above.

Being presented as new news after the Channel 4 programme, I am trying to bear in mind that it will have been read by the man in the street who will not have followed the case, especially in view of the most recent publicity of the Al-Hilli family having been in contact with someone in Roumania, being seen as a relevant link !

6-14-2013 at 14:20:31

@ Fat Bastard

Zaid Hilli and Geraldine M O’Reilly married in 1992. Curiously, he doesn’t seem to have lived with her and their son Sean O’Reilly-Hilli 2002-2003 according to electoral roll data.

6-14-2013 at 14:26:48

She died in 2007, but it looks as if she may have separated from Zaid in 2002 and dumped the –Hilli suffix.

According to this source
No obituary, and Saad was very upset about it.

6-14-2013 at 14:29:03

@FB, I don’t know if or when they married, just an assumption as Geraldine and her son called themselves O’Reilly-Hilli ……… as detailed on the Electoral Roll, for the property in xxxxxxx Close, Kingston-Upon-Thames……, Zaid was not registered there only at the Claygate house.

I am going to repeat that I don’t believe Zaid had anything to do with this, but you never know who is reading this blog !

6-14-2013 at 14:32:22

@ Lynda

According to, they married in 1992 in London. Fact.

They seem to have gone their separate ways in 1992. Conjecture.

6-14-2013 at 14:33:55

Yikes, no, that conjecture was supposed to be that they separated in 2002. At least they haven’t lived at the same address since.

6-14-2013 at 14:51:28

@Max, We are told that Sylvain and Claire had been living together for about 2 years by the time of the murders, so that takes us back to 2010, allow that they met before that 2009, that would make Claire about 24/25 and him 40/41 !

Either divorced or in the process of divorce with two boys from that marriage, she had probably cost her parents a small fortune in University fees and they had big plans for her.

She does a typical female thing and falls in ‘lurve’ with the older man from a different social and political background, I bet they weren’t too pleased at all !

Anyone with a daughter will understand their, I’ll be polite ‘disappointment’, imagine the first meeting, maybe there never really was an acceptance and then she goes and gets up the duff, about the same time as her parents have started the process to ‘gift’ her the business to enable them to retire.

Sorry Lars, the reply about the article should have been to Max.

6-14-2013 at 15:11:58
6-14-2013 at 15:13:25

@FB, Geraldine and Zaid were discussed a long time ago on this blog, I never thought they weren’t married as all reports stated they were.

Mind you, these days, never sure, when Claire is referred to as the widow of Sylvain, the Schutz as his in-laws, and in another case the grandmothers live-in boyfriend as the step-grandfather (you’ll know what I’m referring to), then who the heck knows.

Thanks Peter, I don’t mind being told off for being wrong and apologising where necessary.

Actually Peter, if you go to the electoral roll and pick up the address, it doesn’t appear to exist any more as there are new properties on the site, go to Google Maps.

Zaid is shown by the fabulous Daily Maily photos as living in a semi-detached house in Kinsgton upon Thames. Sean in a terraced house in Walton-upon-Thames, he is well thought of by his customers.

6-14-2013 at 15:15:31
6-14-2013 at 15:57:59

Zaid doesn’t come across as the world’s most likeable guy, he had a motive (a million motives, actually), but did he have means and opportunity as well?

Merely looking at the practicalities of a – strictly hypothetical – contract taken out on his brother and his brother’s family, it is very difficult to see how he could have pulled this off. Apart from the difficulty of finding a reliable contract killer – even in Romania, these people don’t advertise in the Yellow Pages –, the immense daftness of calling such a person from one’s own home phone, and the obvious difficulties of unobtrusively raising the killer’s fees and paying them in an untraceable manner, this would have required him to overcome immense hurdles.

How could Zaid / the killer have known where SAH was holidaying, if the two brothers were no longer on speaking terms? Okay, maybe from mutual friends or acquaintances. How would the killer have known where precisely SAH was heading on the day of the murders? Either by following him closely, or by sticking a GPS transmitter to his car. Both are possible, but the trouble is that nobody saw a car or motorcycle following SAH on his way to the Martinet. How would the killer have got hold of this local weapon within such a short time? If he was sufficiently well-connected in the local underworld to be able to whistle up a pistol and ammunition within days, he could have acquired something more powerful and more reliable.

Surely, if Zaid had really wanted to have SAH bumped off, he would have stuck to local, familiar ground, by hiring a local villain and giving that villain some pointers on SAH’s everyday routines. The notion of sending a professional killer to a foreign country that neither the principal nor the hitman would know very well, acquire some antique gun from local villains (whom the killer wouldn’t know very well, either, increasing the chances of walking into a police sting or talking to an informant), then choosing some godforsaken spot in the countryside with extremely difficult ingress and egress for the hit, whacking a local passer-by for good measure – all this sounds simply preposterous.

6-14-2013 at 16:08:19


I share your view on the CS/SM relation, although there can be multiple ‘perspectives’ (not all of them bad)

Anyway (apart from being an older man myself and not minding a younger pretty girl … which from a ‘older man’ is just a normal perspective;) … so anyway … I think, from the few info we have, that SM possibly did miscalculate his whole new ‘relation’ with CS

As you say too, the guy was 15 years older, from another ‘class’, taking away a young bright daughter who possibly has a new career starting up … That in itself can be overcome if the daughter is totally happy and the parents see ‘that it is good (for her), that she shines’. But … SM goes further, stops working, letting do the daughter all the work AND having a little baby (which is, not doubt, always a BIG STRESS because of the physical impact of e.g. less sleep, etc). … Of course it could be that CS was happy that SM stayed at home to care for the kid, but it could be different … I’ll give you one simple example …

SM went for a bike trip, on wed sept 5th around 14.30

Now … who took care of the baby?

This simple question could shed light on the ‘relation’. Everybody with small kids/babies will know that ‘free time’ or time for yourself is pretty scarce!

But SM goes on a 2+ hour bike trip in the middle of the day. So … was the baby with a ‘nanny’? with CS? (was she not at work?) with TS?

Because if SM said ‘take care of the baby, I’m going to bike’ it could be viewed as egoistic.

Again … have the timestamp in mind … wed, 14.30 … was SM not supposed to look after the baby??

Because a ‘nanny’ would even UP the costs which were already weird with SM quiting work. There should not be a need for a ‘nanny’ because SM was the nanny.

So … no ‘nanny’, and thus, when SM took off on his bike … it probably must have been CS and/or TS who took care of the baby.

Now … CS would prolly have done this (if she was still mad in love with SM) but suppose it was TS … can you imagine TS saying ‘Sure, SM, just have fun on your 5000 euro bike, let CS work and I take care of the baby’

Lol … I don’t see a father-in-law being THAT ‘open’;)

Anyway, above is just a long musing (partly based on my own experience when I had small kids, now 10 yrs ago;)

– M

6-14-2013 at 16:18:35

@Peter, well done ! I couldn’t agree more.

6-14-2013 at 16:30:07

@Max, I’m 13 years younger than my husband but we met after both having been divorced, even so, when I married and I was not in the first flush of youth, my father said I give it 6 months ! He wasn’t a happy bunny at all…… mind you not helped by the fact that he was French !

Daddies and their daughters ……..

6-14-2013 at 16:44:19

A major problem with interpreting this story is that we are shadow boxing.

It is very difficult to sort fact from fiction; reality from fantasy. We have had from the outset such a combination lies, half-truths, insinuation, false leads, variation, contradiction and anomaly, that makes the process of relying on anything for a rational discussion, highly questionable.

Unfortunately as “outsiders” we have no way of knowing what is true and what is false. All we can do is test what we have been told, against what we have been told, and draw rational conclusions as to its internal consistency. We can make value judgements as to the relative voracity of statements and their sources. We can test what we are told against what we can see in a few photographs.

In such matters nothing is beyond manipulation but some might be less manipulated than others.

From the beginning this case was different and created huge interest because of it. Straight away the brutality, the location, the international connections, the occupations, the method, the reaction of Governments, all suggested this was no ordinary killing.

The fact that the French investigators pointedly denied high level intrigue and increasingly suggested it WAS an ordinary crime by an individual deranged psychopath, was in itself, hard to explain. From the beginning there were internal inconsistencies that have NEVER in the intervening nine months, been clarified, which is also revealing. The investigation of the Al Hilli home referred to above, was far from conventional.

A “normal” murder enquiry invariably puts out photographs of the victims with an appeal for information, often accompanied by relatives of the deceased. There is a willingness to put objective facts in the public domain and answer questions. Specific leads may be referred to and the public’s help sought. Not only was this not done, in large measure it STILL has not been done nine months later. Not even an explanation for the transparent inconsistencies and unresolved questions such as “Who made that first (alleged) call at 3.48”?

We, the observers, have, by and large, to rely on the media for our information. Very little is directly gleaned. So there are two levels at which information can be modified or distorted. This is on top of what is intentionally with-held or genuinely not known. We must always assume that far more is known by the official investigators than ourselves, and that revelations from them, or indeed retentions, are not without purpose.

Why WOULD a person ostensibly in charge of an investigation (although he stated he was not) state almost from the outset, this “ordinary” crime was unlikely to be solved? Was he trying in his own way, to warn us as to the forces at work and his own impotence? This is not an anti-French thing. We have our own examples in Britain, most recently in the case of Gareth Williams, with which you may be familiar.

So as regards to vehicles and time-line, we have this problem what and what not to believe. Can we say all the accounts are 100% reliable? To that I think we must reply an unequivocal “No”. Can we assume that some, or parts, are reliable? I would suggest “Yes”. Now the problem is sorting one from the other.

The first issue is witness reliability. Observers get things wrong. Memory is unreliable in moments of stress. They can also have a vested interest in telling the truth or not, either by virtue of personal ethics, threat or reward. An employee of an organisation is immediately compromised if his/her employer is involved. The only thing we can be fairly sure about is that everyone seems to agreed vehicles were in the vicinity at the time of the killing.

We can also be confident that specific vehicles have been mentioned whether real or imagined. It is incomprehensible that if these vehicles were about at that isolated location at the exact time they were not either witnesses or directly involved in the killing. If they have not subsequently come forward, this virtually confirms the latter. It also undermines the view, still held by some that the killing was by one individual who arrived and escaped on foot.

Thus we have the original “Green 4×4″ that WBM was from the first reported to have said passed him both on the way up and on the way back before he got to the murder site. At the subsequent press conference, after the Sunday reconstruction with Martin and Didierjean, Maillaud confirms this account and excuses the poor description. This account WBM subsequently confirms in his own TV interview.

The reliability of this story has a strange twist in that Maillaud some weeks later confirms it but incredibly says this was a Forestry vehicle and it had been cleared! So why did it take so long to do so? If the account is accurate it place the Forestry guys at the scene at PRECISELY the time the murders happen. How can they not be crucial witnesses yet they are virtually dismissed. Now it is suggested it is they who provided the BMWx5 information. What???? If so how would they know it passed WBM on the way up at 3.20? This would mean that WBM was passed one or two times by TWO 4X4’s which he has never claimed! Prior to it being identified as a Forestry vehicle great emphasis was placed on a Mitsbishi Pajero which everyone assumed was the same vehicle but apparently not.

As for motor bikes WBM thinks this passed him going down the Combe. He doesn’t appear to suggest it passes him on the way up which raises the possibility that it was already there, maybe the motorcyclist earlier spotted with panniers further up the mountain. Then we have the motor bike ridden by the illegal young rider who witnessed the shots at 3.30. He apparently found an alternative way back. It would be interesting to know what that was.

Then finally we have Sylvie Le Coeur’s fateful meeting with the white Peugeot 206/306 at 4 o’clock, that strangely transmutes into a ” white four wheel drive Peugeot” as seen by a male witness who had become “unreliable”! If Sylvie is genuine, this car and its driver cannot be anything but significant, but again inscrutably Maillaud tells us it has been located and eliminated from the enquiry. I wonder if those of you in France were ever in a position to validate SlC’s bona fide status?

The appearance and appeal for a RHD BMWx5 nearly 8 months after the event is yet the incredible topping topping on an impressive soufflé of an official story in which there lurks a grain of unmolested truth.

6-14-2013 at 17:35:17

There is something called faction – fact based on fiction or fiction based on fact. Maybe we have a case here of a little of both.

6-14-2013 at 17:37:28

@TimV, hope you feel better now that you have that off your chest !

In order that we can follow your assumptions it would be helpful to post the links to the Maillaud interview and BM’s account for us old hands and newbys here, thankyou.

6-14-2013 at 19:39:36

@ Marilyn @ All

Since I understand you’re about to “refresh” this thread sometime this weekend, may I get back to a suggestion that I think you already considered a few months ago but that failed to reach a consensus back then. Now things may have become different.. Why not change your settings to “latest comment first”? I realize many of us commentators place posts in reply to somebody else’s, but since other unrelated comments frequently appear in between, in any case the current “latest comment last” setting doesn’t usually enable us to have a Q & A dialogue in sequence.
Basically, scrolling up or down comes to the same for those who mostly use a regular desk/lap-top. But for those who either use a tablet (nobody’s perfect) or happen to live in areas where broadband still is scarce, it can make a world of a difference.. Scrolling down for several minutes on a touch-screen is just a pain. So I don’t want to sound Capri-cious, even though I’m currently staying in southern Italy, but I wondered whether this motion could now be seconded..

6-14-2013 at 20:03:15

@Eugene, seconded, marvellous idea for exactly the reasons you state.

Oh, Capri, how wonderful ….

6-14-2013 at 20:21:36

I wonder if many of you listened to the BBC Radio 4 The Report from the 27th September, listen to the testimony early on of Paul Ducher, the farmer, appears to be the husband of the balcony lady on the MontBlanc video, discussed earlier.

So, Bossy and his companions did go there after they left the scene and he thinks he saw the Al-Hilli car:

6-14-2013 at 21:16:06


Thanks for that podcast link! I had missed that.

6-14-2013 at 22:42:34


Perhaps it was figured out before but I think this is where Sylvie saw the speeding car (it was a ‘bend’ and the car was nearly going into the ‘meadows’)

6-14-2013 at 23:18:52

@Max, I haven’t even thought of Sylvie ! Listen to the account of Paul Ducher, from Chef Lieu, the farm opposite the ‘little wooden chalet’ of the Beweeks having work done by the builders, I was going to say ‘masons’ but no doubt that would be misunderstood as is so very much already.

@Max, please remind me where Sylvie lives, it isn’t in Chevaline, is it Arnand or Doussard ?

For those that haven’t already, I suggest a little tour around all these roads via Street View and instead of looking at the road and the houses and the cars, look up, it will give you a much better view of the surroundings and how encompassed the route de la Combe d’Ire is by forest and of course the fast flowing Ire.

Many moons ago I suggested that the photo of the gendarmes standing over an open culvert was a posed photo, it was, the Ire runs the otherside of the old sawmill, the cows crossing the bridge photo, route du Moulin. If something had been thrown in the Ire 3.3kms upstream it sure as hell would not have arrived there!

6-14-2013 at 23:29:04

Lynda, Thanks for the link. + Sylvie lives near the church in Chevaline
Max, I think you are right. Same bent (coming from Chevaline) here at 2:04

6-14-2013 at 23:38:58

Sorry Lynda
6-14-2013 at 17:37:28 – I was trying to be as brief as possible LOL

6-14-2013 at 23:44:52

Glad someone raised the question about who was looking after SM’s baby
while he was out riding. I had wondered about that too, did he ride every afternoon?

Does anyone have a ballpark figure on how much one would pay for a
contract killing?

6-14-2013 at 23:59:30

6-14-2013 at 22:42:34 there is only one “corner” that fits. In addition the BBC splice a shot of it as they interview SlC. The only problem is the narration doesn’t quite fit. She says “He was coming down the hill”. That particular corner doesn’t appear to be on a noticeable gradient. Then, if I remember rightly, she claims the visibility is poor. Can anyone explain these apparent inconsistencies?

6-15-2013 at 00:08:19

@Bibi, the BBC shot of the bend is not inside the village of Chevaline, if I had the energy I’d point out where Sylvie lived, I’ll leave someone else to do it.

@Sarah, hello you, another girl, fantastic !

Three months in to having her baby I suspect that Claire wasn’t expected to be back at work, least of all as she worked for her parents, although with the recent events of her being gifted the pharmacy/ies, she wouldn’t be an employee so had no maternity rights apart from those she awarded herself (?). Sylvain was initially taking his paternity leave,under the new laws, he could and be paid for it, we are told he negotiated three years off – absolutely no idea how that happened.

So, both parents weren’t at work or expected to work when these events happened, maybe Claire had an afternoon free the day before and that Wednesday was Sylvains free time.

If you have followed the case, people/someone in Ugine had seen Sylvain with the child in the town in the days before the murders.

Neither were working at the time so I see no problem with either of them having a few hours free from the home environment.

6-15-2013 at 00:16:42


According to Oui, Sylvie lives here … it matches the sighting spot I propose. I’m pretty sure about this.

Shopi – Sylvie – And the speeding car (at the bend)

But if that was (another?) X, at est. 16:03 … He only left with the car after BM and PD somehow had past him. Which could work with the time … leaving high up on the Combe d’Ire at 15.50+ and ending up seen by Sylvie at 16:03

But if that X had a car somewhere near Martinet, this car was NOT seen by BM/PD and NOT heard by BM/PD either … so how could that X pull this off???

I have only one reasonable ‘solution’ for this which surprisingly accounts for some other details:

(denoting this X as XS = X Sylvie)

Assuming the 4×4 and MC where also ‘in’ but did not do the killing, they were already on the way down. But XS stayed at Martinet and did the killing perhaps just moments before BM arrived, so beyond 15.30

Now XS ran out of ammo and wanted to beat Zainab to death when he noticed BM coming up … So XS sneaked away to his his parked car which was a bit beyond Martinet (about where Alex turned around)

XS realizes he is trapped. No ammo, doesn’t want to be seen by BM so he decides to ‘sneak away’. How he managed to start and drive the car UNHEARD by BM is puzzling to me, but suppose XS managed to do that and sneak away via the parallel route (doable by car? If so, surely there must have been tyre tracks!!). On the parallel route 500 meters up north he goes back to the main route Combe d’Ire … by then also missing PD.

At that moment, say 15.50’ish BM/PD are at Martinet and XS is 500 up north on route Combe d’Ire

Only now XS races down to escape and is seen 12 minutes later as the speeding car with panicking man.

As said … this could work. It explains the detail of the ‘interupted beating of Zainab’ (scenario)

But also in this way we have now a party of 3 vehicles which are ‘in’. The 4×4, the MC and XS … Quite a ‘line-up’ … Wtf for? What is so damned important about either AH or SM or both????

– M

6-15-2013 at 00:18:05

@TimV – before I retire for the night, I’m pleased to see you have appreciated my sense of humour and I, in return, salute yours.

We, ‘Agathas’ are more the plodding sort, maybe we’ll arrive at the same answer as you but we’ll explore every other aspect before forming a conclusion.

Which of course could mean that our paths may never meet ……

6-15-2013 at 00:43:09

@ Sarah, 6-14-2013 at 23:44:52

Does anyone have a ballpark figure on how much one would pay for a contract killing?

To some extent, that depends upon the economic circumstances of the country and its purchasing-power-adjusted currency exchange rate. More importantly, it depends upon the personal relationship, if any, between the principal and the hitman, whether or not they are involved in a personal, or even sexual, relationship.

If the two be strangers, in a wealthy country such as the UK or France or Germany, the key issue would be the perceived risk, from the killer’s point of view, of the principal doing something stupid or defaulting upon payment. If the principal is a known “face” who can be trusted to keep his mouth shut and not do anything silly, hospitalizing somebody would cost around € 200 – 300, breaking most major bones in the victim’s body € 500 – 1000, killing him € 5000 – 15000.

Those are actual, real-life figures, unlike the ones quoted by these jokers
but, again, the key factor is the principal. If s/he lacks any criminal connections, s/he will be ripped off in 95% of cases, fleeced for all s/he is worth and afterwards blackmailed in the remaining 5% of cases. If, upon the other hand, the principal is a serious player who has something of value to give – it need not be cash; a mere introduction to a wholesale drug dealer trades for € 30,000 to 50,000 in my neck of the woods – s/he may not have to put any cash on the table at all.

6-15-2013 at 00:46:40

Hi Lynda
Thanks for welcome and info on SM .
I have followed the case as closely as I can from NZ (love trying to solve
‘who dunnits’) problem is my schoolgirl French doesn’t do me much good, and I find it frustrating when I can’t always get a translation on French articles.

6-15-2013 at 00:46:59

@Peter, can’t sleep before I ask about Nigerian John and his Slovenian girlfriend, when did the attempted pillage of Saads account start ?

I don’t believe it is anything to do with Khadims account/s, just realised the old boy was 91 when he died, my mind wanders and wonders did he have any children before his two now 50+ year old sons…. think about it guys, think about it.

6-15-2013 at 00:48:07

@TimV, Bibi, Lynda and all

The bent is the place where Sylvie saw the car, I’m sure (by that BBC, thx Bibi) and by the Lynda link

Sylvie says he nearly went into the ‘meadows’ … and this bent is the only place where it could have happened

The ‘good’ thing about the Sylvie X is that he at least exists;) I don’t think Sylvie would ‘invent’ something.

But … if all those vehicles DO exist … well, I go with Lars, who said it was ‘extremely busy’ on that road that day

Say, we count the BM sightings and add the Sylvie sighting, we have 3 verhicles with AT LEAST 3 persons at Martinet … Doing what exactly????

Perhaps both AH and SM did run into something, that something being the ‘meeting of those 3 persons’????

I never gave this much thought … but … 3 vehicles????

Or can we bring back the possibly ‘shadow’ side of SM. SM doing some strange business, and has meeting with 4×4, MC and SylvieX.

E.g. 4×4, MC and SylvieX and SM have a deal. 4×4 and MC close deal with SylvieX. After that 4×4 and MC leave (seen by BM). SM comes to MArtinet to get his share of the deal but SylvieX denies this and produces a Luger and Kills SM … Collatrals AH just had arrived and now must die as just very unlucky collaterals.

SylvieX sneaks away when he spots BM coming up.


This could explain all vehicles, explains why they did not come forward. Explains the ‘local’ side. Explains the SM shot first … but in this case SM must have had a ‘shadow side’!

Hmmm, nice;)

– M

6-15-2013 at 01:26:26

The Sylvie speeding car ‘bent’ in streetview

6-15-2013 at 01:54:04

6-15-2013 at 00:48:07 everything turns, in the case of SlC’s story, on how genuine a witness she is. She lives in the house next to the one on the corner apparently owned by the Chevaline Council in which very co-incidentally on the Google street view, there is parked up a PEUGEOT 206/306. IF she is genuine, and not an actor, I have no doubt her sighting is significant to the killing. In this small remote settlement, we must presume this was a non-resident who was making the hasty/panic stricken retreat at precisely the right time. If he wasn’t involved with the murder, what was he doing there? If he wasn’t involved in the murder, why in such a peaceful spot was he driving so crazily?

The trouble is the French Authorities say they have traced and eliminated car and driver from the enquiries, however they don’t answer the questions I posed above. They make no attempt to explain who it was, why he was there at that time or why he was driving recklessly. Any half competent cop, given the circumstantial evidence would question the car driver/owner and impound the car for forensic tests. There is no evidence of this. Then there is the amazing morphing of the official story to replace SlC with a MALE witness, now having a near collision with a white FOUR WHEEL DRIVE Peugeot, which a 206/306 certainly is NOT!

All this points a finger of suspicion or extreme incompetence at the POLICE! Presumably if they do not doubt Silvie le Coeur’s witness statement or they would say, not change it significantly?

6-15-2013 at 02:21:21

In fact I have never known a case where there was such confusion and obfuscation in relation to vehicles at the scene of a crime. It begins with WBM’s evidence. As I have suggested elsewhere many times, I simply do not believe it credible that a man of WBM’s intelligence, training and occupation, could be so vague regarding his description of vehicle and would even mistake the colour. Is it believable that an Englishman on a lonely alpine narrow road, passed TWICE by a vehicle at speed, would not even have noticed if it was RHD let alone taken note of the registration plate?

And then what of the police. If English police are anything to go by (is the French version so different?) they start from the premise of doubting everything. Yet Maillaud, on behalf of the police, not only accepts this unbelievable version, but actually goes out of his way to explain and excuse the vagueness.

Then nearly EIGHT MONTHS later, information that must have been known at the time (a BMWx5) is announced for public help? This when such a distinctive model must have been relatively easy to trace given its “foreign” characteristics?

Who is fooling whom here? More importantly, why? This most definitely would not be tolerated if it had been a conventional crime.