Chevaline shootings … Saad Al-Hilli … Sylvain Mollier … Brett Martin … Philippe D… and Xavier Baligant …

  On September 5, three months ago today, four people were brutally shot down near the French town of Chevaline, 600 kms (372 miles) from Paris and just 60 kms (40 miles) from the Swiss city of Geneva. I’ve written about it here and here and here. Comments on those four threads have closed, so […]

 

On September 5, three months ago today, four people were brutally shot down near the French town of Chevaline, 600 kms (372 miles) from Paris and just 60 kms (40 miles) from the Swiss city of Geneva.

I’ve written about it here and here and here.

Comments on those four threads have closed, so if you want to join our debate you should do so below on this thread.

There is still no certainty as to what had happened that Wednesday afternoon of the shootings.

This is what Prosecutor Eric Maillaud said when he last spoke to a journalist.

A horse butcher in Paris … gives another meaning to the name Chevaline …

 

A chevaline butcher always displays a bronze horse’s head …

 

UPDATE:  Sunday, December, 9, 2012

When the killer is, or the killers are, apprehended and brought to justice what do they risk?

They will not be sentenced to death. This is for sure. France abolished capital punishment – death by guillotine – in 1981, but had not guillotined anyone after September 1977.

Prosecutor of Annecy, Eric Maillaud, is supervising two judicial enquiries – informations judiciares – for this case which the French call la tuerie de Chevaline – the Chevaline killing or slaughter.

One is for assassination.

The other is for attempted assassination.

The first is of course for the quadruple assassination of the adults, while the latter is for the attempt to kill seven-year-old Zainab Al-Hilli.  I suppose that at a later stage the prosecutor could make it a double attempted assassination by adding the name of the four-year-old discovered alive in the rear well of the BMW.

(In France assassination is what premeditated murder is called. Killing someone, in say some kind of accident or in a lover’s tiff (a crime of passion) is called murder – meurtre.

So what could the sentence be should the killer/killers be found guilty?

For assassination the punishment is life in prison. (Art. 221-3.) Le meurtre commis avec préméditation constitue un assassinat. Il est puni de la réclusion criminelle à perpétuité.

For murder the punishment is 30 years in prison. (Art. 221-1.) As given in the Code Pénal (Criminal Code) Le fait de donner volontairement la mort à autrui constitue un mertre. Il est [imi de trente ans de réclusion criminelle.

There is also Art. 222.7 which stipulates – Violence leading to death without the intension of doing so is punished with fifteen years of imprisonment. A lawyer could claim that the death of the Al-Hillis and of Sylvain Mollier were unintentional. Les violences ayant entraîne la mort sans intention de la donner sont punies de quinze ans de réclusion criminelle.

As for the attack on Zainab Al-Hilli, it also is defined under Art. 221 of the Criminal Code and the sentence depends on the victim’s age (in France a minor is under the age of 15) and the circumstances of the criminal act. The sentence could be from five  to fifteen years.

If the smuggling of drugs was involved in the murders then more years will be added.

For example Art. 222-34 stipulates: The fact of controlling or organizing a group having for object the illegal production, manufacture, import, export, transport, possession, offer, supply, acquisition or use of drugs is punished by life imprisonment and a fine of €7,500,000. Yes, that is the amount incredible as it may seem.

UPDATE : MONDAY DECEMBER, 10, 2012:

No connection between the Al-Hilli killings and that of Xavier Baligant.

The shooting of Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, and her mother Suhalia Iqbal, 74, and that of Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, 45, is being regarded by the French investigators as unprecedented for France.

They say that the Claygate-based family’s cold-blooded murder on Wednesday, September 5, and the fatal July 19, 2011 shooting of Belgian Xavier Baligant, 29, were carried out by different killers.

The French gendarmes on the case are certain that Mr. Baligant was shot down in carjacking that went very wrong, and that his killer, or perhaps his killers, as motorway carjacking is usually carried out by a team of two or more, will only be found should they carry out a similar fatal carjacking which would lead to their immediate on-the-spot arrest.

Xavier Baligant, divorced, was driving home to the town of Pont-à-Celles in Belgium after a camping holiday in the Ardèche department of the French region of Rhône-Alpes. (France is divided into regions and each region into departments which in turn are divided into communes.)

On the rear seat of Mr. Baligant’s car were seated his two children, aged seven and five.

The three still had over 300 km (186 miles) to drive and once they were on the A31 toll road the two children fell asleep on the rear seat.

When Mr. Baligant was nearing the town of Colombey-les-Belles beyond which the motorway was free, he pulled up in the Malvaux rest area.

Malvaux rest area

It was going on for two in the morning and the rest area which consisted of just a public convenience and a phone booth was quiet.

Traffic moving in the other direction had another rest area, that of Faverosse, across the motorway.

Twenty-four trucks were parked in the two rest areas, their drivers, asleep in their berths.

At around 2 a.m. an employee of the motorway operating company APRR – Autoroutes Paris-Rhin-Rhône – patrolling the motorway heard shots. He thought they came from the direction of the Malvaux and Faverosse rest areas and immediately drove in that direction.

He found the lifeless body of a man lying in front of the toilet in the Malvaux rest area. He had been shot to death.

On the rear seat of a car parked nearby two small children lay asleep. They would later tell the investigators that their dad had told them that he was pulling up to go to the toilet but that they must stay in the car and sleep.

With the arrival of the APRR man some of the truck drivers were awakened by the patrol car’s flashing light and came over to see what was going on. The others had to be awakened later by gendarmes.

Not one of the 24 had heard shots: the tests on the hands of all for gun powder residue were negative.

Mr. Baligant had been shot four times. Three shots were aimed at his chest. The fourth, fired from above him, in other words he was on the ground, had hit him in the chin, traveled through his head and had exited through the top of the skull. The autopsy would show that the first of the three chest shots had been the fatal one. The final shot told the police that the killers or killers wanted to make certain that Mr. Baligant was dead and unable to talk.

Today the investigators believe that another vehicle had pulled up in the rest area at the same time as Mr. Baligant and an attempted carjacking had resulted.

When Mr. Baligant had refused to hand over the keys of his car, the carjacker had shot him dead. He had injuries to his hands which meant that there had been some degree of physical violence before the carjacker had gone started shooting.

Then, after having shot Mr. Baligant and getting to his victim’s car and seeing that there were two sleeping children on the rear seat, the killer had raced off in his own car, probably one that was old and in poor condition – and stolen – and which he had planned to abandon.

Or, if there were two or more carjackers, and there had not been two children in Mr. Baligant’s car, one would have driven off in Mr. Baligant’s car. The latter had left the keys in the ignition.

In that month of July there had been several carjackings in car parks in Paris’s more upper-class arrondissements. The modus operandi was always the same: the carjacker would threaten the car owner with a firearm, take the keys of his car and his credit card and having obtained the pin code and having withdrawn a large amount of money, would lock the car owner in the boot of his car to let him out only when out in the countryside.

The cars were not found. The police believe that they were ‘cleaned’ – registration plates were changed – and the cars were driven across the European Union’s open borders into Eastern Europe and especially to Albania where crime has reached endemic levels.

The French investigators also see no link between the firearms used in the Chevaline and the Malvaux-Faverosse shootings.

Despite that both types of firearms allegedly used had once been used by the Swiss army – a 7.55 calibre Schmidt-Rubin K31 at Malvaux-Faverosse and a 7.65 calibre Luger at Chevaline – the French investigators say that there is a glut of firearms in Europe because of the collapse of the Communist Bloc and the end of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia.

Automatic and semi-automatic handguns – pistols and revolvers – rifles, and even assault weapons like AR-15s and AK-47s can be bought at an affordable price if one knows where to look.

In 1997 alone during an armed rebellion in Albania caused when a financial pyramid scheme collapsed, there were an estimated 226,000 Kalashnikovs and another 25,000 machine guns circulating among the people.  Because of that rebellion there was a mass emigration of Albanians into Italy, Greece, Switzerland and Germany, and some of those weapons left Albania as well.

The French investigators therefore give little credence to the belief that the  killer of the Al-Hillis and of Mr. Mollier was a local gun collector who had decided it was time to see if his old Luger could still a job correctly.

There had been reports that the gendarmes were studying CCTV footage of the A31 toll road and the various rest areas.

At the entrance of the Malvaux rest area there was a camera which recorded at a 360° angle.  The scene of the shooting was 150 meters (492 ft.) from that camera. There were also other cameras filming on the A31 and at the nearest toll gates. However, the killer or killers could have arrived on any of the numerous small adjoining roads. As a trucker told journalists there is a lot of illegal activity on those roads and in that border region. He said that when a trucker sees a motorist hand a bag to another motorist he “looks the other way”.

The APRR guy, who has not been identified, but lives in the region’s town of Bicqueley (fewer than 900 inhabitants), needed post traumatic stress counselling.

APRR’s motorways.

APRR employs 3,870 people who are responsible for approximately 2,300 kms (1,430 miles) of motorways and its cameras film on average 23,400 vehicles daily.

Their cameras transmit its footage ‘live’ to the Ops Room (Operational Room) of the motorway police (C.R.S. 30) in the town of Chaumont.

The cameras are to monitor the flow of traffic, speeding and other violations of the law – thefts, hold-ups, aggression, drug dealing – and well …murder.

APRR patrol men also visit a rest area every four hours when cleaners also clean the parking area, the toilets and the phone booth.

The question is: how come that after 18 months the APRR’s cameras have not yet ‘talked’.

This we do not know, but in the August 1997 death of Princess Diana and her lover Mr. Dodi Al-Fayed, the story was that CCTV footage of the road Ritz Hotel acting security chief, Henri Paul, had taken that night, as well as the CCTV footage at the entrance and exit and in the Alma tunnel itself where Paul had smashed the couple’s Mercedes into a supporting pillar, would reveal what had gone on that night.

A-ha!

There were no cameras on that road and no cameras aimed at the entrance or exit of the tunnel or inside it.

There was one camera. This was a camera on Place de l’Alma at the exit of the tunnel, but it was switched off.

Why was that camera switched off?

The spy cameras on the streets of France’s cities, towns and villages are controlled by a special section of the police force – the Direction de l’Ordre Public et de la Circulation (DOPC). In a large city like Paris the DOPC has several Ops Rooms, each watching a particular area of the city. The men in the Ops Room of the Place de l’Alma area stop work at 11 p.m. and then the cameras are switched off.

Maybe the APRR’s cameras on the Malvaux rest area had been switched off: It was 2 a.m. anyway and the only activity on rest areas at that time of the night happens in the dreams or nightmares of truckers.

 

Update : Sunday, 2013-01-20 – Exclusive

 One hundred and thirty-eight days ago this massacre took place.

As far as we know the French investigators and their English counterparts have no idea as to the identity of the murderer.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud spoke of ten years passing before this abominable crime could or would be solved.

This past week a 10-year-old murder was solved. As happens here in France most of us have forgotten about the murder of a young (22 years old) bank manager named Elodie Kulik. Her murderer or murderers had raped her and had then set her body alight during the night of 10/11 January 2002.  She had not returned home after work and her car was found abandoned and then ten days later her partially-burnt remains.

Exactly a year ago her rapist and murderer – or one of them – was identified through DNA found on a condom which had been left near her body. The DNA matched that of a 22-year-old man, Gregory Wiart, an apprentice plumber, with a rape conviction. Alas, he was dead: he had died in a car accident in 2003.

However, last week seven men, friends and acquaintances of Wiart, and between the ages of 29 and 45, were arrested. Of the seven, all of them blue collar workers and all with criminal convictions, though not of rape, two have been released.

For the past ten years, while we forgot about the case, the investigators have been putting together a profile of Wiart’s life, watching and following those he had befriended in his miserable life, and tapping their telephones.  Also, Miss Kulik had had a chance to dial the emergency services on her cell/mobile and there were man’s voices on the recording of the call and painstakingly the police had searched for the owners of those voices: they are among the seven being held now.

Also last week the police arrested two men in connection with the fatal shooting of three women members of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) in their office here in Paris. The two, Kurds born in Turkey, aged 39 and 41, and in the three women’s circle of collaborators and friends, were, as is always said in the UK ‘helping the police with their inquiries  but the stories they told did not tally. Questioned again they had even changed their tales.

Now I will get to the reason I am updating my article about the Al-Hilli killings.

The French investigators are to re-question all those they have already questioned, and this means that witness Brett Martin has been requested to return to France for another interrogation. He can refuse to do so, but this means that should he ever again set foot on French soil he could be arrested and kept until the police have questioned him again.

 

I have now closed comments.

 

 

 

 

 

Marilyn Z. Tomlins

1,121 Responses

12-5-2012 at 17:14:56

Hello everyone …

Have a look at the photos of what a Paris horse butcher looks like.

12-5-2012 at 17:27:56

@Peter
Good Point. Does anybody know how much such a delivery could be worth? Botte full of happy pills. maybe SM didn´t deliver all the money he incurred from his clients to his supplier.

12-5-2012 at 17:57:55

@ RiffRaff

Sold individually, an Ecstasy pill costs around € 10 retail, perhaps € 15 if sold at a festival in a remote location where there is a captive market. An LSD trip costs something between € 8 – 15. Regarding wholesale prices, I will have to ask my lawyer friend, who defends dealers all the time, but I would reckon that it is no more than € 2000 – 3000 for a thousand Ecstasy pills or LSD blotters.

In most cases, the street-level dealers who peddle drugs to the end user are self-employed entrepreneurs. If they deal inside a club, they may have to pay a commission to the doormen, but they do not have a “big boss” for whom they work. It is sometimes different in the big cities, where street-level dealers operate in hierarchical gangs, but I cannot imagine that it would be like that in a place such as Ugine.

One thing that I have learned from my lawyer friend, which *might* be relevant to the lack of a photo of SM (all this is speculation, of course) is that one of the basic rules of dealing is that you must never let your clients know your full name. Not because they might betray you to the police, but because they will otherwise show up at your house at three in the morning on a Saturday night, desperate to buy. Thus, again hypothetically, there *might* be quite a few people who would say “Hey, I know this guy!” if they saw a photo of SM – they almost certainly would not have known his real / full name while he was alive.

12-5-2012 at 18:17:15

Ha, a new thread … I can stretch my legs a bit and thank Marilyn Z. for the extended hospitality. Perhaps we should thank the Annecy prosecutor too for keeping his cards to the chest.

Will friends and family finally get some answers during the period of the next 270 comments? Marilyn Z. Tomlins blog will reach 5,000 … I do feel the heat we are close to unraveling the massacre. EM has not been a great help.

12-5-2012 at 18:37:22

At least one report marks the day, but just repeating the same old stuff:

http://www.franceinfo.fr/justice/trois-mois-apres-la-tuerie-chevaline-a-garde-ses-secrets-823925-2012-12-05

12-5-2012 at 18:40:00
12-5-2012 at 18:42:54

With M. Mollier involved in criminal affairs, maybe using his alias Molly :), we could perhaps revive the hitman.
Maybe some local boss wasn’t too pleased with “Molly”, and decided to take him out. Perhaps the local hitman he hired wasn’t the “sharpest tool in the box”, and messed everything up?

12-5-2012 at 18:53:30

The Paris Match can’t even spell his name right, but call him Monnier, should perhaps be Monnaie? :) :)

12-5-2012 at 18:56:15

These butchers are few and far between nowadays. Where’s this one, Marilyn?
Too bad, nothing beats horse meat when it comes to a good steak tartare. Yummy.
Otherwise, there’s the Chevaline war-head reentry-body. Also very tasty.

12-5-2012 at 19:30:42

@Marilyn

I think that there is a “space” too much before “still” in your link above to the previous thread.

12-5-2012 at 19:40:52

If we continue Peter’s postive interpretation of, why there is no photo of Sylvain Mollier, it could also be a way to protect the Mollier-Schutz children. First from the knowledge of what their father was up to, secondly from any risks of further violence.

But if this is true, that “Molly” was a known figure to the Annecy police, and that they knew pretty well from the start what he was dealing with, should they then go through with all this theatrical performance in Britain, thorough search of the house and so on. Or did they suspect that also M. al-Hilli could in some way be involved.

12-5-2012 at 19:53:26

… and perhaps Mr. Brett was sent on a mission to follow “Molly” around to track his contacts…..

12-5-2012 at 20:11:22

…. another thought, if this is big business, would they then let a small-time prosecutor like Eric Maillaud, “a career lawyer with little experience beyond regional cases”, run the business?…..

12-5-2012 at 20:22:56

It’s lunch break again at work…

@ Eugène regarding Google Latitude:

Given that it operates on GPS why should it be any less accurate in rural areas?

@ Lars regarding a photo of Sylvain Mollier:

We might find it on the cemetery whenever there’s a permanent tombstone.

“Will the real Sylvain Mollier please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?”

:)

12-5-2012 at 20:41:05

@ Marilyn regarding mileage:

If 600 km = 372 miles, than 60 km never equals 65 miles:)

I’d say, hmm…alors…37,2 miles?

:)

Alex

12-5-2012 at 20:45:10

@Alex

Perhaps we there have a clue to why they were not allowed to bury him permanently?

PS. Don’t drink to much lunch. :)

12-5-2012 at 20:52:25

@ Lars:

Well, you know, there’s a ten year time frame on the case.

They’ll bury him whenever the case’s closed.

Then it might be “Tales from the crypt”.

12-5-2012 at 21:00:57

@Alex
Good point. I’m not tech. savvy enough to be assertive about it, but I think the software needs to match the GPS raw data (implying to be in clear view of the satellites) with other info from either nearby registered Wifi routers or cellular towers to pinpoint your location. It’s at least the way it is with the iPhone “find my phone” software, I’m not familiar with Latitude. Likewise, with a regular car navigation system, if you travel long enough in a tunnel or in a parking structure, the GPS will often lose track, at least for a couple minutes, in particular if you run fast just after getting back in the open. Does this make sense?

12-5-2012 at 21:21:44

@Alexander

I’ve told you before that you have a very observant eye. So, thanks, I changed the mileage. Ever heard of dyscalculia? If so, you will know that I do not know whether I had made a calculation or typing error.

@Lars

Thanks, Lars, I repaired the link at the end of the previous threat.

Monsieur Eric Maillaud can’t be called a small-time prosecutor. I don’t think that anyone who becomes a chief prosecutor can be small-time.

@All

I must ask you all not to accuse anyone of anything. Until someone has been found guilty of a crime, that person is innocent in the eyes of the law. Even when on trial a reporter/writer still has to refer to the accused as the ‘alleged’ murderer. Peter will be able to give us the legal aspect of this, I am sure. Do share your thoughts and views with us, but please put in the word ‘if’ here and there.

Something else. I had to delete the ST’s article as well as the transcript of Brett Martin’s BBC interview. There are copyright laws which we have to honour. One can quote from articles and interviews but one can’t give them in full as that falls under copyright infringement. Peter will also be able to advise us on this.

Lars you’ve done a great job transcribing the scanned pages for us, and I am sure that all our commentators immensely appreciate what you have done for us. You did not waste your time, Lars, as our regular commentators have all read your transcripts. I have Lynda’s scanned pages saved on my hard-disk so if anyone has not read Lars’ transcripts, email me and I will email you those pages. That won’t be copyright infringement because we do hand newspapers and magazines over to others after we’ve read them, and we do lend books to others too.

@Eugene

The chevaline butcher is in the 13th arrondissement. It’s on rue Jeanne d’Arc behind the Eglise N.D. de la Gare on Place Jeanne’Arc. The nearest Metro is ‘Nationale’, ligne 6. It is closed on Mondays: it was on a Monday I took the photos.

You are joking about a chevaline steak tartare are you? If not, then will you also eat zebra steak or dromedary steak which my local hypermarket (Auchan) now stocks. I mean eating a horse is bad enough, but eating it *raw* is just beyond comprehension.

@Lynda

Thanks for telling us about Paris Match. I will buy a copy tomorrow.

12-5-2012 at 21:52:00

@Marilyn

You are right about being wary of accusation, you could face court proceedings, as I understand you are responsible for everything written on your blog, including comments.

I give away all my paperbacks, to family, friends or Cancer Charity shops in the UK.

As for horsemeat, as you know I live in the French countryside, at Apero there is always the tan coloured sausage, I avoid it. I do adore Beef Carpaccio, eat it at least twice a week with some olive oil, fresh basil and lemon.

Not on topic, the number of times I have been to dinner at a ‘new’ contacts house and they have served snails or frogs legs, oysters et al – when people come here I always make a meal that doesn’t include fish, seafood or other ‘delicacies’. With loads of salad and cheeses, vegetables so everyone is catered for.

I have often felt they serve the typical French food because I’m a Brit! Last time I put snails in the Apero, all French guests, only the men ate them.

And do not believe that French women are good cooks, they are real lovers of the local ‘traiteur’ ! Rant over.

Long ago I suggested a drug involvement and have never believed that the Al-Hillis were the targets, but what the heck warrants such deaths ?

12-5-2012 at 21:54:15

@Marilyn

I did actually transcribe that Sunday Times article only for myself, because I like to have searchable sources. I thought I could then also share that information with my friends here. If anybody want my (corrected) trancription I can still distribute it through email.

If Eric Maillaud is small-time or big-time, is I think, a question of definition. I know that you have informed us how different the French legal/police system is from other countries in Europe and USA.

I know it is true for my country, and at least also for the USA, than when a very serious crime is commited, a special central police force (like the FBI) is called in to take over the investigation. The local authorities/police will only be used to support the national investigation force. So in that sense I think it is a correct description for Eric Maillaud even in France.

12-5-2012 at 22:00:19

@Lynda

I am a snail, mussel and oyster eater.

When I have people over for dinner for the first time I never serve such things and always stick to the plain and simple. I am not however great on spending hours on end in the kitchen, so I prefer to take people to restaurants though that has become so very expensive. And with the price of a bottle of wine these days one can pay for a child’s university education. And what makes me so *mad* is that if there is a man at the table, he will grab the wine list and order because I, as a woman, can not know anything about wine.

I do eat venison (and ostrich) but I draw the line at zebra and dromedary. And horse.

12-5-2012 at 22:08:43

@Eugene & Alexander

GPS is normally a self-sufficient system. To function well it needs contact with several satellites at the same time (like triangulation with base stations). That GPS doesn’t function in tunnels or buildings is because the reciever looses contact with the satellites. This is often remedied with leaky feeders along the tunnel walls and in the buildings.

12-5-2012 at 22:12:32

@Lars

Here in France the case remains in the region. There was the trial of Klaus Barbie, the WW2 nazi, which, for example, was held in Lyon because that was where he was based and committed his atrocities. But a case is usually taken over by the national police which did not happen in this case.

12-5-2012 at 22:13:00

I’m gradually turning into a serial killer so I better go go …

Until tomorrow.

12-5-2012 at 22:27:13

good thing to open another page Marilyn and i see beside the Chevaline there is another subject FOOD i love good food but very lazy to cook and your blog make me think of that joke (what to do,what to do,) I’m sure a lot of you know it so if you put some article on the blog you can be sued and if you don’t put we will be upset so (what to do ,what to do) :) EM is a figure head in this investigation i think most of the investigation is done by the British this crime is too complicated to be done as you said by a small town police station and maybe this is why that EM said this might take 10 years to be solved

12-5-2012 at 22:28:53

This is a bit off the wall thought, could Sylvain, the discreet, charming gentleman, behind closed doors be another kind of man ?

Especially as his new woman was far more educated, even successful than him ?

At 45 years old was he in the midst of a mid-life crisis, behaving not so gentlemanly, Claire had told someone who truly cared for her and bam !!!!

I am probably going to regret saying this, could the killer have been acting so wound up that he saw the ‘foreigners’ skin colour and thought them dispensable – two birds with one stone, or four in this case to include Zainab, he didn’t know the younger girl was there.

Too late to know, I would lay bets that the killer was under the influence of alcohol.

Where did he wake up with his hangover ? Can he remember what he did ? He wasn’t working that afternoon, did he go to work the next day ?

12-5-2012 at 22:38:33

@Lynda wound up that he saw the ‘foreigners’ skin colour and thought them dispensable Why do you think that the skin colour was different from SM ? and also i don’t think that SAH would have too much accent he studied in UK since he was very young I have seen lots of Iraqis with fair hair and blue eyes and from his picture he doesn’t look much different from French or Italian people i don’t think the killer was racist

12-5-2012 at 22:46:06

@Lynda

I think it is improbable that the perpetrator was under the influence of any drugs, alcohol or others. His reactions were very quick, and he could run fast, and fire his gun and hit, especially important to hit the driver.

12-5-2012 at 23:00:22

Thanks for new thread . . . awesome
I think EM is pretty new in his job allegedly and doesn’t have the local knowledge yet. Bad luck to get this level of murderous activity on his first month but I am sure he is probing around maybe.
He can never go incognito now though!
Perhaps he was sent to clean up the area and hopes to make a really big sweep by hanging on collecting info by surveillance.

I do wonder sometimes why police in UK don’t act more on drug dealing rather than just tolerating it. It is very obvious when this activity is going on. When my daughter was at University her next door neighbours door bell was ringing all the time. . day and night. He never came out but lowered a basket up and down out of the fourth floor window to his punters . . . . went on for years.
Eheu!

12-5-2012 at 23:10:55
12-5-2012 at 23:20:46

@ J_Cave:

Eric Maillaud is a “career lawyer in his fifties” if I remember the Sunday Times article correct.

He’s the prosecutor handling an unsolved crime since 17 years.

12-5-2012 at 23:40:46

I like to correct myself, that Sunday Times article is by David James Smith, and nobody else. My praise should therefore be forwarded to the right person. (http://www.davidjamessmith.net)

12-6-2012 at 00:03:15

alcohol can make someone very brave …. or very foolish.

12-6-2012 at 00:42:18

@Peter,

The SM – Killer X ‘meeting’ over drugs is a nice idea. It fits better with the facts.

Q: Was was SM not shot ‘point blank’? (he had a meeting after all)

12-6-2012 at 02:29:11

@Max
re: Was was SM not shot ‘point blank’?

If SM had such a meeting then maybe the person who turned up at the meeting was not who he was expecting and SM was about to leave in a hurry?

@Marilyn
Thank you for your “hint”. I hope it is okay if we speculate on what sort of “illegal activity” might be a problem.

@All
I did a very quick search to try and identify “illegal activities” in the region
and indeed quickly found a couple of recent cases involving organised gangs of drug & people traffickers. One based in a refugee camp in Switzerland involving Nigerians & Somalis. Another further north in the Haut Rhin area again involving drug & people trafficking.

Strangely enough under English law you can say what you like about the dead without fear of a libel action
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4630243.stm
Not that I would advocate doing so and I do think we should be careful how we word what is pure speculation.

12-6-2012 at 05:25:23

@ Eugene 12-5-2012 at 18:56:15
“These butchers are few and far between nowadays. Where’s this one, Marilyn? Too bad, nothing beats horse meat when it comes to a good steak tartare. Yummy.”

I ate horse meat a few times, good, I can still recall the taste, but it was more preferred by some other ethnic groups than ours. Also was sold in special butcher shops. The horse meat sellers would have done better with a euphemistic name. No one buys cow or pig meat, but chicken is OK.

Love goat, but the one time I tried to cook it myself it turned out so tough it was inedible. Same with rabbit. Also had seal flippers, but never shark’s fins, turtle steaks, cod tongues, periwinkles, ostrich & buffalo, some kind of snake. Never dromedary (do they taste different than camel?) and no eyeballs from any critter.

12-6-2012 at 05:30:35

@ Lynda 12-5-2012 at 21:52:00
“Long ago I suggested a drug involvement and have never believed that the Al-Hillis were the targets, but what the heck warrants such deaths ?”

If it was a drug war between gangs or top cartels for territory they prefer outrageous violence to send a public message and warn others off. Or at a lower level, gang members do extreme violence for fun and prestige.

12-6-2012 at 05:34:05

@ gamers / techs
From 2009 but may be of interest if you haven’t seen it – the problems in analyzing 60 terrabytes of data:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/02/aaas-60tb-of-behavioral-data-the-everquest-2-server-logs/

“The average age of players turned out to be 31. “These aren’t just pasty white teenage boys in a basement—to be sure, they’re there, but they’re not typical,””

“Mostly, the gamers seemed healthy; their body mass index was better than the US average and, although they were slightly more depressed than average, they were also less anxious. ”

“Buried among those happy, average players was a small subset of the population—about five percent—who used the game for serious role playing and, according to Williams, “They are psychologically much worse off than the regular players.”

12-6-2012 at 09:29:57

I understand morning broke a couple of hours ago.So good morning to all.

I will read in later in the morning and comment. First, though, I have some horses to kill for tonight’s dinner. They Kill Horses Don’t They? That was a good film. Put me off dancing – for a while.

12-6-2012 at 09:47:20

Does anyone know if the Google Latitude leaves a trace ? Do you think the enquiry team have found someone who was following them on this, like the guy that realised something was up. A ships AIS is active for days.

I’m thinking about the Dutch couples report that he left the first campsite alone several times a day, where did he go?

Some queries, firstly the shoeprints of the killer running around the clearing, what type of sole – a bikers boot, a trainer, hiking boot ? Size, in general this would give an idea of the build of the person ?

Secondly, Saads blood spattered trousers, how close or far would he have been to Sylvain to receive such on the lower part of his body, Saad did not appear to be a tall man ?

Third, if the motorbike rider is the killer, seeing as there was plenty of blood in the area, were then any tyre tracks going away from the scene that had traces of blood in them, along the lines of Zainab having Sylvains blood on the soles of her shoes, not surprising as she was stumbling about the clearing and into the road ? Did the killer walk/run in blood ? Thinking about the road sweeper that went up there.

Finally, why would the reports of Sylvain Mollier be ‘un homme sans histoire’, if he was known to the Police ? @NR – I get your point, plenty of it in the Marseille and Paris region.

From Paris Match yesterday:

“Autant d’interrogations rejetées par Eric Maillaud. «Il n’y a aucune raison possible d’imaginer qu’il soit pour quelque raison directement impliqué dans sa mort, il semble avoir été là au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment», nous a confirmé le procureur.”

12-6-2012 at 11:58:34

Un écrin pour vos réceptions dans le vignoble bordelais

Does the French language seem like Chinese to a Russian millionair? Does this happen very often …

12-6-2012 at 12:03:11

pondering . .

perhaps Mollier/shutz had a very niche market
. . cyclists

I know there was a big stink-up recently about Lance Armstrong taking banned substances for performance enhancement and testing avoidance techniques . . . although he has not admitted it outright. I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to get this stuff.

Annecy and environs is virtually Paradise for Cyclists with just the right amount of empty roads, mountain vistas encroyable and do-able ascents. I should think the local governance would do almost anything to ensure this status is continued.

Pure cycling is now the big mantra.

12-6-2012 at 12:09:02

@Oui

re: French chateau demolished.

How does one get over this?

12-6-2012 at 12:11:47

@Lynda

Sorry, I can’t help with Google Latitude. Heard of it only here in the comments.

Your questions are the ones we are all asking. Will we ever know? I wonder.

I bought the latest edition of Paris Match. Monica Belucchi is on the cover. I can’t find any reference in the mag to Chevaline. But the Arafat article is going to be interesting.

@Lars

Thanks for the correction re the writer of the ST article.

@NR

Rabbit’s great. I know a Paris resto where they have ‘rabbit with two mustards’ on their autumn/winter menu. Out of this world!

Goat cheese’s nice. About goat meat I am not so sure. Ostrich is low in calories and has a sweetish taste: very nice.

I once had shark fin in a Chinese restaurant. And so too duck tongue which is very nice, very salty, and it in no way resembles a tongue, so one can ignore what one is eating.

Cow eyes I won’t eat. I have seen them in supermarkets here though.

And I once spoke to a journalist who had interviewed cannibals in Sumatra and he told me that they said that there is no meat tastier than that of a human. The tastiest part of the human body was ……. the palm of the hand. This is apparently so because of all the food one picks up, touches or holds in the palm of the hand.

@bleb

I know that the dead do not talk back or sue, but their relatives do and will.

12-6-2012 at 12:15:13

pondering . .

perhaps Mollier/shutz had a very niche market
. . cyclists

I know there was a big stink-up recently about Lance Armstrong taking banned substances for performance enhancement and testing avoidance techniques . . . although he has not admitted it outright. I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to get this stuff.

Annecy and environs is virtually Paradise for Cyclists with just the right amount of empty roads, mountain vistas encroyable and do-able ascents. I should think the local governance would do almost anything to ensure this status is continued.

Pure cycling is now the big mantra.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242473/Any-change-toll-French-police-arrest-Chinese-pair-1-8-MILLION-euros-cash-stitched-inside-car-seats.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

12-6-2012 at 12:19:15

@Lynda

Tracking foe or friend

Google Latitude privacy tips – VIDEO

Your travel history can be stored in a cache memory: Google Latitude, now with Location History & Alerts .

12-6-2012 at 12:22:16

It seems that all the timing and clues that we have is from BM what if those were not right and he was at the parking much earlier than he said then all our work is gone to the bin the most important information rest with BM and he is the guy who can solve the mystery regarding blood on AH is because BM broke the glass to be able to turn off the engine and before hand he was handling SM the blood comes from his gloves as he shattered or forced the window the blood must have spattered into AH trouser that is why the blood was on the lower part of the trouser and nothing on his upper part of his body .

12-6-2012 at 12:23:09

@ Max, Lynda

Imagine SM having used the following negotating tactics in the past with his hypothetical supplier: “If you don’t give me a better price, I’ll have to buy from Omar!” “Who is Omar?” “Oh, a big-time dealer, a very dangerous man who will kill you as soon as look at you. You had better watch out for him; he keeps asking me about you. I am scared to even talk to him, but if you don’t offer me a better price …”

Then, at the appointed time, the killer shows up at the Martinet and encounters SAH, who obviously doesn’t belong there, doesn’t look like just another hiker, and who has a carload of people with him whom the killer cannot see clearly. SM arrives at exactly the same moment. The killer puts two and two together and comes up with five: “SM has set me up and betrayed me to Omar (= SAH), who has come here with his crew to put me out of business permanently.”

12-6-2012 at 12:29:32

@Oui

So as long as his mobile was with him, it is possible that he could be tracked back, so to speak.

One assumes the British Police must have spoken to the person that The Sunday Times spoke with who doesn’t want to be named.

12-6-2012 at 13:01:10

@Peter: Omar
Now that´s another good idea. It´s not uncommon to do a little negotiation like that. It would certainly explain the rage (7 bullets) against SM and the need for immediate action.

12-6-2012 at 13:03:20

@ J Cave

The performance-enhancing drugs taken by cyclists (chiefly EPO and steroids) are exactly the same ones that, for example, recovering cancer patients receive. They are sold in every pharmacy. Forge a few prescriptions and presto …

However, this is a niche market and the margins are not that great. A crooked pharmacist could make vastly more money by illegally selling the heroin substitute methadone, which is prized as a recreational drug in its own right.

12-6-2012 at 13:49:13

@Marilyn
re: I know that the dead do not talk back or sue, but their relatives do and will.

I’m sure you are correct about that under French law.

I know it is irrelevant but I found it interesting that under English law the relatives cannot bring a libel action, you can write what you like about the dead with no fear. I think the justification is to protect historians.

Interesting because England has a reputation as being the place to bring libel actions, as the law is very much on the side of the person claiming to have been libelled. So much so, that there has been some pressure for changes to the libel laws to stop London being the favoured “libel capital of the world” for assorted foreign millionaires.

12-6-2012 at 16:09:42

Drugs? would there be a connection with CS and pharmacy (SM used this a supply?) (and perhaps explaining the strict ‘wall of silence’)

12-6-2012 at 16:30:42

@Max

They are all into pharmacies and doctoring. By all I mean both Sylvain Mollier’s people and those of Saad-Al-Hilli and his wife.

And they are all into biking as some of our commentators have pointed out.

12-6-2012 at 16:44:44

Professional Sports Cycling and Skiing known for EPO

Common ground link by darbepoietin (epo) Olympic Skiing – Albertville

German/Spaniard Johann Mühlegg and Russian Larisa Lazutina when the cross-country skiers returned positives for the latest rocket fuel on the scene, the red-blood-cell-boosting darbepoetin. The 31-year-old went to the Albertville, Lillehammer and Nagano Olympics and finished seventh, ninth and seventh in the 50km race. Then, in 2001, past the age of 28 that is considered a skier’s peak, he became world champion.

Did the local French skiers perform above expectation?

12-6-2012 at 17:05:12

@Oui

Thanks for the links.

Lance Armstrong comes to mind. And then the Tour de France was so drug-ridden that it was even called the Tour de Dope a couple of years ago.

12-6-2012 at 17:53:29

In the early years of the Tour de France, the competitors had “medicine bags” strapped to their handlebars and would quite openly medicate themselves, with everything that worked: cocaine, caffeine, pain killers, whisky …

However, I still believe that performance-enhancing drugs for endurance athletes are very much a niche market, in purely economic terms. It may be worthwhile to sell steroids to bodybuilders, but cyclists? Even when purchased legally, without a black-market price premium, stuff like EPO is very expensive indeed. Few amateur cyclists would be willing to pay that kind of money. Conversely, every pharmacist should be able to produce various synthetic party drugs. The market for those is huge, and the profit margins are astronomical.

12-6-2012 at 20:19:07

@Peter

re: market drugs

You said ‘the profit margins are astronomical’. Therefore one can kill if someone else gets onto one’s pitch.

12-6-2012 at 20:58:46

@Marilyn You eat the snails and oysters too? Sacre Bleu, how could you..they are so cute in the gardens and fishy tanks..and the oysters..they always look like they smiling when they are steamed..and the horseys the remind me of a carouselle and carnival..and the knights chess boards and like you said..very much They shoot horses don’t they..this is true, but you forgot the famous A horse is a horse of Course Mr.Ed! :D

Its amazing how many pharmacies, dentists and hair dressers were in this story, and pharmacies too. Even that infamous tragedy of the Nattional Cyber head and lauded Wheeler in the States..he survived several administration except the Obama one only to wind up in a Newark garbage bin. I lived in Newark..and it is a real dump..One of his last stops was a pharmacy. Working for innocuous sounding consultancies like our people did here.. Some say stroke, cryptic sounding email..I always wondered if he had been injected withone of those umbrella poisons that disappear fast in the system.. like this story..it seems notwithstanding the children involved doomed to get buried..
Makes one feel the cyber war and killings started a long time ago.
http://www.examiner.com/article/john-p-wheeler-timeline-update-labored-but-lucid

12-6-2012 at 21:26:19

http://solidariteprogres73.elunet.fr/public/solidariteprogres73.elunet.fr/AG1.JPG
this picture of a solidarite & progres meeting has been discussed before and it has been speculated that the bloke on the very right wearing a black jumper might be SM. I never paid much attention to this but when looking at it again I thought that the guy with the white shirt is a much better candidate. Compare with Leo’s pic, https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0L5KbFaGD7w/UHHBvPC_afI/AAAAAAAAABU/2QIFSuYJaZ8/w430-h429-p-k/548641_323664237732921_1948628606_n.jpg
Ok, still quite far fetched

12-6-2012 at 21:30:13

@Mannie

I’ve never heard of the A horse is a horse of course Mr. Ed. Not all American TV shows make it to France. I’ve also never heard of the Wheeler murder which sounds complicated but interesting. I think he got mixed up with some down-and-outs who killed him, maybe in an argument or during a robbery.

Yes, I eat snails and oysters. I’ve never thought a snail cute. If you’ve ever tried to cook them you will know that they are horribly slimy things. I’ve never tried to cook them either but I’ve seen in recipe books what goes into cooking them: like starving them for several days so that they can empty their stomachs! I try not to think of this when I eat them!

Horse meat I won’t eat.

12-6-2012 at 21:30:56

I am to go off-line now.

Speak to you tomorrow. Maybe.

12-6-2012 at 22:29:32

@George

I think that that is also not a very good picture of the boy, if you want to see his charcteristic features.

12-6-2012 at 22:31:09

Is Haute Savoie the new Twin Peaks? :)

12-6-2012 at 23:07:15

In Bali I had a quite wonderful cup of CivetButt Coffee (don’t ask) sweetened with Orchid Honey
Foodwise . . . I will try anything

12-6-2012 at 23:11:48

The US TV was just showing video of the Zombie Apocalypse training exercises, financed by grants from The Department of Homeland Security (anti-terrorism, FBI, immigration, etc.) to local governments. Very realistic Zombies too, not cheap Halloween Zombies. I think some movie special-effects makeup people were beneficiaries of the grants. Spread the tax money around.

There was another story last week that districts around large cities will receive grants for exercises to prepare for the evacuation of huge populations, “in case of an earthquake or terrorist attack”. They intended to add nuclear event, but deleted that as they thought it would scare people too much.

At the same time as the Zombie Exercise video, the radio had a story on how US NASA (space agency) set-up web pages to assure the population there is no danger of the world ending on 21 Dec 2012 and would everyone please stop talking about it ’cause they are scaring the children and causing people to suicide ’cause they don’t won’t to see the end of the world. (Or they’re disappointed they haven’t finished their famous ‘bucket lists”.)

12-6-2012 at 23:34:02

@ Lars regarding Twin Peaks:

Pls bring me up to speed again, why did Laura Palmer had to die anyway?

12-7-2012 at 00:24:45

Credits to all who pointed to ‘drugs’ … For me (now) as a ‘possible motive’ it sound good.

- I believe SM was the target
- I belive the motorbiker was Killer X
- I dont belive for now it was a ‘nutter’
- Imho ‘Sex’ is a too light motive to explain the AH killings
- I can’t see moutains of plain money (like heritage and stuff) as a ‘motive’

But ‘drugs’? That could fit. It could fit the ‘local’ aspect. It could fit the ‘brutality’ of the AH killings, esp the Zainab beating would go nicely with ‘drugs’ (doesnt fit at all with ‘sex’ or ‘money’)

Perhaps, behind that ‘Wall of Silence’ in SM circles there is a dark side hidding having to do with drugs.

Because yes, rage – nutter – beating – headshots – nonpro -outofammo – local – luger – motorbiker – martinet – ambush … all these keywords fit well with ‘drugs’

Let’s see what the future will tell

- M

12-7-2012 at 00:51:04

more pondering . . sorry Marilyn

I wonder if Saad and Sylvain looked very similar to each other and it
really was a case of mistaken identity?

12-7-2012 at 02:39:19

@ J Cave 12-7-2012 at 00:51:04
“I wonder if Saad and Sylvain looked very similar to each other and it
really was a case of mistaken identity?”

When we were all looking at the WRONG Sylvain, the hunter, I noticed he looked much like Zaid al Hilli. So, if he was related to the RIGHT Sylvain, that victim might resemble Saad. But I don’t recall our genealogy experts finding any connection between the two.

12-7-2012 at 08:39:33

Morning everyone. It’s snowing in Paris. I’ll be going for a walk because I love the first snow of winter but I will, as always, be complaining about winter very soon again.

Anyway, imagine Cmas lights in the snow …

Will comment later in the day.

12-7-2012 at 09:44:57

@Sasha

I think that was the beauty of Twin Peaks, it didn’t really tell, but we know who’s done it. It just showed a very distorted community. Just like Haute Savoie?

I will write more about that later this day.

And very soon there will be more news, so look out!

12-7-2012 at 10:05:38

@ Lars

And very soon there will be more news, so look out!

Oh really? ;-)

12-7-2012 at 10:08:22

@ Lars:

I am looking out for more news, all I see is snow.

12-7-2012 at 10:29:47

@George

By George, yo’ve got it! :) ;)

Look at the good looking fellow sitting on the front row (photo far left side) two seats in front of person in white shirt. That would definitely be my candidate for Sylvain Mollier. The dark complexion, hair style and especially identical eyebrows. Where did the photo of Leo Mollier surface?

12-7-2012 at 10:46:52

Pharmacist Thierry Schutz tells his son-in-law to-be the journey he should make. Did he pin-point the Martinet parking? An excellent disguise for making deliveries to remote and isolated places. No one would suspect a local guy on a $5,000 race bike being a delivery man. Have there been drugs related murders in the (Haute) Savoie district in recent years? Have there been deaths in the well-to-do skiing resort areas in the French Alps during the winter season? The border regions are known for contraband smuggling, you can’t earn a dry sandwich today by smuggling butter, liquor or cigarettes. Hard times to earn a living and upkeep of a young family.

That would leave BM dangling with no link to the incident?

12-7-2012 at 11:05:16

@All

Marilyn and I commented on the dark haired chap in The Solidarite photo, was it you Oui that dug this out ?

Since then there have been a few photos on line of Leo, I saw the first one on his Facebook page. He has his mothers nose, but that is one head of hair, certainly not from his mother as hers is wispy.

If this photo does include Sylvain Mollier, how long before it is pulled, I saved it ages ago and again yesterday.

Now George, you don’t comment often but I think you are in the know, you were the one who pointed us in the direction of Lydie/Lydia Sclosa Ringot.

Lydie has since married Francois Ringot, who is dark haired and Sylvain hooked up with Claire another blonde.

@Lars

Can’t wait for the news !

12-7-2012 at 11:53:07

@ Oui

Switzerland has a surprisingly strong drug culture. Until about ten years ago, the sale and cultivation of marihuana was tolerated in many Cantons. You could openly buy “scent bags” of marijuana in the shops, and there were occasional newspaper articles featuring the latest successes of Switzerland’s proud ganja growers.

Even today, it still is just as easy to buy all kinds of drugs in Zurich or Geneva as it is in Amsterdam, and many Swiss are really into drugs, in their own, largely wholesome way (the Street Parade in Zurich is just incredible, far more fun than the german Loveparade ever was). Moreover, Switzerland offers the financial infrastructure required to hide and/or launder the proceeds.

In other words, I would consider it more likely that SM was *receiving* a delivery than that he was making one, hypothetically speaking.

12-7-2012 at 12:41:55

@Peter

Agree with that analogy, I wonder if the estate of Roger Mollier had been settled, this can be done before a property is sold. The value is included in the estate and any tax paid over, then releasing the left over money, when the property is sold, the increased value or decreased value is taken into account by the treasury.

This happened to us over a family property, the house eventually sold for more than the amount entered in the papers by the notaire and upon receipt of the monies, through the notaire, he deducted the additional tax due. We weren’t direct descendents although the only ones alive, so tax bill was 55% and 60% !!!

@Marilyn and Alex, snow missed us, now it is like dusk, pouring with rain and blowing a gale, I was hoping for a nice crsip snowy morning …..

12-7-2012 at 13:13:36

@all @george and NR

I was thinking the similarities between SAH and SM from a distance were

1. stature both were diminutive or gamin with cyclers physique

2. head of hair probly greying

3. non-French looking with striking facial features (hope thats OK to say)

would explain seeming disorder at shooting.

I dont think Saad really looked much like the striped shirt photo

For example I dont look anything like my photos either

**** Lights and snow . . the best.

12-7-2012 at 13:20:12

@Lynda

See my comment #5796 @Marilyn Z. I linked also to another photo of a year-end meeting CC d’Ugine in the same room dated Nov. 23, 2011. If Sylvain Mollier would have been present at both meetings, I found a different person.Oui

12-7-2012 at 13:33:08

@Oui, thanks I thought it was your link, was it only on the 23rd November with all the comments seems much longer than that !

I think you were suggesting the grey haired man at the front ? He looks older than 45.

Sylvain Mollier as JCave has said, has been described as ‘gamin’, but I suppose it depends on the context. I think he was short but slim, Leo doesn’t look statuesque for his age, 16 a couple of weeks ago, his hair is thick and wirey.

http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/gamin

Now that would be something if he and Saad from a distance looked similar.

12-7-2012 at 13:55:29

@All

re: Dark-haired fellow.

I also chose that dark-haired guy on the left. I think it was Oui who then suggested that Sylvain Mollier was the man in the grey pull-over sitting between an aged couple, probably his parents as he bore a physical resemblance to both of them. (Some people go grey early.)

On second thoughts though I think the dark-haired guy is more likely to be fathering children by a 29-year-old blonde than the grey-pullovered man who very much looks like slippers and Chinese Tiger Balm to me.

re: Saad’s looks. I think he looked like he did on that photo. I picture him not very tall and portly and hair more grey than black.

12-7-2012 at 14:08:43

@ J_Cave:

Why should a “Sylvain Mollier” not have a French look?

P.S. Did Sylvain Mollier ever exist?

:)

12-7-2012 at 14:13:28

Hey, what about the idea

the killer taking Saad’s bike of the BMW roof and cycling away with it?

Seriously.

12-7-2012 at 14:18:38

From the moment Oui put the photos up, I went for the grey haired, older-than-45-looking man.

If…Sylvain Mollier was even there.

And if he wasn’t there…did he ever really exist?

12-7-2012 at 14:22:24

Plus, if Sylvain Mollier’s arrival triggered the killer (which of course is only my theory), then chances of a case of mistaken identity to be made are…

…rather slim:)

12-7-2012 at 14:29:16

@ Marilyn 12-7-2012 at 13:55:29

Given that SM has been described as “un brun de taille moyenne”, my money is on the dark-haired guy, too.

12-7-2012 at 14:29:42

@ Lynda regarding an old question: how come the killer was there a Wednesday afternoon?

He is:

a) retired

b) in French school service

c) working exactly there (ONF, law enforcement)

d) on holiday/paternal leave.

12-7-2012 at 15:07:48

@All

So I think we’ve decided Sylvain Mollier is the dark-haired buy.

Must though say this – that dark-haired guy doesn’t look like a biker to me, more like a Merc guy.

Ha ha, now all you bikers can attack me for being prejudiced.

12-7-2012 at 15:08:53

@Alexander

re: reasons why killer had a Wednesday afternoon free.

Good reasons you give there, Alexander.

12-7-2012 at 15:11:08

I think if you compare the Gary Aked photo of Saad to the gent on the left of the Solidaritie picture you will see a resemblance even to the point of
doppleganger stuff.

They both have an impish quality and similar complexions etc.

I dont think Saad was portly . . he was a keen cyclist. His brother is not portly?

BUT who got mistaken for who though is a complete mystery still.
Ii am outta here until sunday.

12-7-2012 at 16:51:17

@Alex

School service was one of my thoughts as you know, but I suppose equally unemployed.

Eric Maillaud almost insists that Sylvain Mollier was collateral damage, a few reasons for this, he knows he was, he needs to appease the community, he is playing a game hoping to entrap the killer into a false sense of security.

In the meantime, the life and times of the Al-Hilli and Al-Alaff, Saffir family are dragged through the mud, the family having said as much in The Sunday Times.

I’m going to re-post an article from a few days back, have a read again:

http://www.au-troisieme-oeil.com/index.php?page=actu&type=skr&news=40574

Weather update: Roads are becoming impassable due to flooding, trees are bending about to break, one nearby lost its life a few weeks ago in the last storm, roof sounds as if it lifting off, local stream higher than anyone alive has seen it before. Waterfalls appearing off fields, small landslips (I blame the farmers – they have taken out the hedgerows to increase their cultivation areas). Two local plots that were sanctioned for house building, two in one and thirty in another are under water – think again greedy landowners and bent councils, this is the Marais, the marsh, meant to be there to contain the excess water, not build on it. When will they learn – rant over.

12-7-2012 at 17:24:59

@Lynda

re: your weather

I hope you can swim.

12-7-2012 at 17:41:27

@Marilyn, the webbed feet help !

12-7-2012 at 17:51:01

I’m bumping up the Third Eye comment because, we have Low-cost travel of all means and apparently contract killers according to Eric Maillaud !

«Si c’est un contrat, il est très mal exécuté. A moins qu’il ne s’agisse d’un tueur à gages low-cost venu des Balkans ou de Macédoine, et qui se procure ou vole le pistolet sur place.»

12-7-2012 at 18:19:47

@Alexander

I don’t understand your “Did Sylvain Mollier ever exist?” – what are you getting at?

+

“how come the killer was there a Wednesday afternoon?” – if there was a connection to a criminal gang (ie: drugs or whatever) then the killer maybe didn’t work standard hours (ie: his “work” was all gang related)

12-7-2012 at 18:37:12

@ bleb

“Door management consultants” and the like don’t work standard hours, either :-)

Anyway, where is @ Lars, and why doesn’t he work standard hours today?

12-7-2012 at 18:56:15

@Peter

Thanks for asking, but I am working on the case, will be back later this day! :)

12-7-2012 at 19:18:08

Like J Cave I am outta here now. Going for dinner. Till tomorrow.

12-7-2012 at 20:08:46

@ bleb:

It’s a running gag.

Sort of like Cicero I am constantly repeating that and from time I add it to a post.

It’s just based on the fact that there is no *single* proof of Sylvain Mollier’s mere existence.

12-7-2012 at 20:13:41

@ Lynda regarding The 3rd rock from the sun…ahem, 3rd eye article:

Remember when Eric Maillaud didn’t know which country Kadim al-Hilli emigrated to?

Now Macedonia’s not longer in the Balkans.

Guy just don’t know what he’s talking about.

12-7-2012 at 20:22:31

@Peter – yes, I like that description “Door management consultants”

or perhaps for Sopranos fans “waste management consultants”.

On the subject of the region of Savoy – it apparently has a separatist movement the Savoyan League. They don’t appear to be violent though!

12-7-2012 at 20:35:40

@Alex – ah, I see, I must try to keep up :-)

Well it seems someone thought “Sylvain Mollier delenda est”

12-7-2012 at 20:46:05

popped back

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/saad-al-hilli-was-most-generous-man-you-could-meet

try this different photo of SAH compared to Gent on left at meeting

same neck same posture . . agree

also GOL looks like he has been wearing welding glasses

12-7-2012 at 21:14:31

@Alex

The article was taken from Liberation, says so at the bottom of the page and I found the same.

Like you Alex I think Eric Maillaud is being set up as the ‘act’.

@JCave

Surely that photo is of a very much younger man, Saad today would be about 47, this guy appears to be in his 30′s or younger.

But something I have to admit is that Saad and Zaid bear very little resemblance to one another. It happens, one follows the father the other the mother, even that changes with age.

Welding glasses ? Put the gin down and walk away from the bottle ! We don’t know when it was taken, could it be after skiing ? Anyone got the wider photo to include surroundings as the shawl does say alot !

12-7-2012 at 21:57:22

@ Lynda 12-7-2012 at 16:51:17

Re storms. After the Sandy storm in New Jersey and New York, people claimed on their flood insurance, which in low lying areas is mandatory from the federal government.

They were surprised to find there is in the small print an exemption saying the insurance does not cover any damage to “finished areas” of a home lower than 12 feet. You are supposed to use that space only for a garage, storage, etc., but many people had furnished living areas below 12 feet and now find they’ll receive no money to compensate for damage to that.

12-7-2012 at 22:16:47

@NR
I have a friend living in a small town on Long Island, I’ve seen the photos, they were okay but their friend lost their home.

My Dad lives in the UK he received a letter telling him he was on a flood plain, believe me if where he lives floods a whole city is wiped out !

The house has been there since the late fifties, nevertheless he has had to fight against an increase in insurance on the house because of this assessment. Plus the city has in place huge flood defences and a barrage to control water flow. Very distressing for a man of his age, but and this is my big but and butt, if you get my drift, many, many years ago the area was the sea or at least estuary. Have we gone full circle where the sea shrank back and now wishes to claim its land again ?

Completely off topic, interesting nevertheless, the fields I see here in a valley should never be granted planning permission unless they are built on stilts.

No doubt brown envelopes involved.

12-7-2012 at 22:47:17

I would like to shake my spear in anger, and travesty: Something is rotten in the state of Savoie.
So what is wrong with its state, you may ask. Well, let us see.

During this week some pieces in this puzzle have fallen in their right places, and I have become more and more convinced about certain aspects of this crime. I still don’t know who the killer is, and I am still not certain about the background to this crime, could be drugs, could be trafficking, could be a personal affair, could be something else, but I know who knows, and I (and many others) know his name. And that is a start.

This man has all along been on my short list of possible killers. I am not now certain that this man actually knows who the killer is, but he knows at least where to search for him. He is right now very afraid, like the people around him, and he knows why they are so afraid. He knows why it is of the outmost importance that the photo, and history, of Sylvain Mollier is never published, not as long there is any interest in this murder case.

I will not name any names, but I think for those, who have followed this blog, and read the articles about this crime, it is no big problem to figure out who I mean by themselves. Sometimes you betray yourself by your actions, sometimes you betray yourself by what you do not do, a fact that I think is known by everybody who has lived in a close relationship with another human being.

This man, and the people close to him, have in this way betrayed that they know much more about this crime than we, the general public, know. They know and they keep quiet.

If the police knows yet, is very hard to say. The gendarmerie has not hitherto betrayed that they know anything about anything.

My post might sound like the gibberish spoken by the witches in Macbeth around their cauldron. But speech might be blurred by the heat from the fire. I do, however, not think that we have to wait until the forest starts walking down the hills of Savoie, before we know who the perpetrator is.

As a matter of fact, I hope that we in the next few coming days, will receive news that will make the picture even clearer. So watch out.

12-7-2012 at 22:54:03

I will not be surprised if we soon will see “counter-leaks” of the type: “It is said that al-Hilli’s grandgrandgrandfather was at some point accused of smuggling goats from Irak to Iran. Perhaps it goes in the family”.

Anything to move the focus from the Savoie.

12-7-2012 at 23:41:09

Hmmm Lars, interesting. I’m trying to guess who/what you have in mind. You seem to be a bit more sure of a certain scenario than I am. For me there isn’t a definite ‘click’ yet but perhaps you have a more clear vision.

- M

12-8-2012 at 05:14:52

@ Lars @ Max
May I suggest if you do solve the puzzle you don’t name names here. Aside from those close to the case that want revenge, the Internet is now full of nutters and loons, who form vigilante lynch mobs within hours. They misidentify people causing them to go into hiding or ask for police protection. These self-appointed mobs also run scams, not necessarily out of Nigeria, soliciting donations and offering phony cash rewards for capture of Fiends and Monsters, just like the British tabloids.

Right now in England, after the mobs called for the heads of everyone at the hospital who were pranked by the Australian DJs impersonating The Queen, and after they drove the nurse who took the call to suicide, they’re now blaming the DJs and screaming for their heads and demanding the Australian government shut down the radio station. The vigilantes themselves of couse take no responsibility for what happened to the nurse.

12-8-2012 at 08:29:43

@NR,

Makes sense. This sometimes refererred to as the ‘terror of stupidity’. I’ll take note, and btw I was already less into the puzzle as there are simply no new facts. EM has the dossier, keeps it for himself, and the ‘french way’ is to let the ‘investigators’ solve the crime because that is what they are paid for. Which I’m afraid was and will be the status of this case. EM gave it ’10 years’ I’m not going to wait for that:)

12-8-2012 at 08:46:16
12-8-2012 at 09:21:33

@ Lars

There is a chinese turn of phrase, “to slowly boil a frog (until he stops croaking)”. I suggest that you follow that maxim to achieve the opposite effect: Slowly keep turning up the heat, until that, erm, frog starts croaking what he knows.

12-8-2012 at 09:26:24

Good morning to all.

I’ve read in.

@Peter, your link does not open, but I googled it and read it. So according to the Mirror the investigation is back to the Iraqi connection. I was told two days ago that the British media has lost interest in the case; Kate Middleton’s baby having become the front-page news. But the Mirror would now have rekindled the interest I am sure.

@NR

I agree with you about the nurse’s suicide. All that I have to say about this story is: Thank you Danton, thank you Robespierre, that you made France a Republic.

@Max

You mention the ‘terror of stupidity’. I recall Hannah Arendt’s remark during Eichmann’s trial in Jerusalem: ‘the banality of evil’.

@Lars

You are going strong. Please do not name names here on this site.

You can only go as strong as you did if you have access to the Chevaline dossier. As far as I know you do not.

@all

Not one of us on this site has access to the dossier – as far as I know. We are interested in the case for reasons of our own. Mine is that I write about anything interesting happening in France, be it murder or an art exhibition.

But- is the slaughter of this family and of Sylvain Mollier really our business?

Please, I ask once again not to make any accusations on this site. The laws of France forbid it. We are speculating – only speculating – because we know nothing.

Last night another man was shot to death in Corsica. He had left prison just last week and was on control order. This makes it the 20th deadly shooting in Corsica this year – and the year is not yet over. There was also a shoot-out between police and gangsters in Marseilles 48 hours ago. And on Thursday an employee of a gold bullion dealer was shot to death in a hold-up in central Paris – the third arrondissement, or Marais district.

So, do believe me, that the French police have their hands full. Please do not judge them. They cannot reveal what they know in a case; they cannot give us the names, ages, addresses and telephone numbers and email addresses of suspects.

Please, if you all are not going to respect my wish, then I will have to close comments.

12-8-2012 at 10:11:19

@ Lars 12-7-2012 at 22:54:03
“I will not be surprised if we soon will see “counter-leaks” of the type: “It is said that al-Hilli’s grandgrandgrandfather was at some point accused of smuggling goats from Irak to Iran. Perhaps it goes in the family”.
Anything to move the focus from the Savoie.”

“Peter 12-8-2012 at 08:46:16
@ Lars was remarkably prescient”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/french-alps-shootings-why-was-victim-saad-1478542

Lars, you are good. Are you a fortune teller or a psychic? It took only a few hours for your prediction to come true. Give us some stock market tips or tell us what, if anything, happens on 22 Dec 2012.

From the Mirror: “This prompted suspicion the Israeli secret service Mossad was monitoring emails from Mr Mollier, who could have sold nuclear secrets.”

So there was no D-Notice about not speculating about Israeli involvement, or it’s been rescinded. And the Mirror had this sidebar about the mother arrested in Southeast Asia for drug smuggling: “Mum facing death sentence for smuggling £1.6m cocaine claims she was forced into it
An expert will offer her trial “compelling evidence” she felt she had no choice because of threats to kill her children.”

12-8-2012 at 10:24:55

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-8-2012 at 09:26:24
“@ NR : I agree with you about the nurse’s suicide. All that I have to say about this story is: Thank you Danton, thank you Robespierre, that you made France a Republic.”

Yes, but wasn’t one of the troubles with the French revolution that after Madame Guillotine finished off the elites she could not stop eating and the mob was happy to feed her more and more people?

Did you know there is a steam-powered guillotine in a storage yard in Oakland, California? I forget why it was built, must have been toward the end of the revolution, when people were tiring of hoisting the blade, but it was never used. I guess a collector bought it and is storing it there.

12-8-2012 at 12:41:23

@Peter Mirror article

Wise decision by French investigators!? Sending the dossier to the thiefs and thugs running Baghdad. There is no justice and judicial system in place. All injustice is due to the sectarian violence across the divided nation. In Baghdad, the city has been divided into Sunni and Shia strongholds. The Shia with PM Maliki are trying to run the government. A Sunni politician, VP Tareq al-Hashemi, has been accused of terror acts and has left the country staying in a favorable Sunni oriented nation (see the Syrian/Iranian conflict). Iraq is trying to rival Iran with the number of death sentences and executions. Sending a dossier to Baghdad may seal the death of one or more members of the al-Hilli or al-Saffar families. If true, I find this an ugly turn of events. Perhaps is’t all fictional, as the Mirror still writes that intelligence (German BND) had linked Kadhim’s earnings in Swiss bank account to Saddam’s hidden treaure. What a bunch of bull.

Iraqis use Syrian conflict to settle old scores

12-8-2012 at 12:45:44

@ Marilyn:

Wait…it was not the Daltons who made France a republic?

12-8-2012 at 12:53:53

@ Peter regarding “Mirror” article:

Just to answer rhetorically to “The Mirrors” maybe not even rhetoric question “Why does one get beaten up by Iraqui police?”:

-Why there’s trees in the woods?

-Why is the pope catholic?

-Why does the bear shit in the woods?

:)

12-8-2012 at 12:57:26

@ Oui

I am sure that the iraqi police will be happy to investigate themselves and furnish their french counterparts with a full and truthful account of why exactly they beat up SAH in 2010 ;-)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244989/Iraqi-intelligence-investigating-murder-British-engineer-French-Alps-amid-claims-beaten-business-trip.html

12-8-2012 at 13:58:43

@ Peter regarding the “Daily Mail” article:

Thank you!

This was new to me:

“Emails and mobile phone calls intercepted by Swiss intelligence agency FIS and passed to their German counterparts suggest that Saad Al-Hilli may have been about to access the money, or part of it, shortly before he was killed.”

Plus, “the source” obviously spoke to “The Mirror” and “Daily Mail” alike.

Do these two newspapers share the same editor?

12-8-2012 at 14:01:11

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud A True Pro Handling Communication

Read article in Le Figaro: Éric Maillaud, un procureur très communicant

Isn’t the investigation in the hands of a judge if a remember the first days after the murder. What is role of Lt. Col. Benoit Vinnemann?

The Chancellery decided train judges in communication. And in accordance with Article 11 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, which sets up a breach in the secrecy of investigations: “To prevent the spread of fragmentary information and inaccurate or terminate a disturbance of public order, the prosecutor may (…) make public objective elements from the procedure with no judgment on the merits of the charges against the defendants. ”

Article: Les procureurs, rois de la communication.

12-8-2012 at 14:05:30

regarding the “Swiss Intelligence Service FIS”:

Good one, “Daily Mail”!

“FIS” is either:

1.) The “Bundesnachrichtendienst”, the *German* Intelligence service or known to the “Daily Mail” as “their German counterparts”

or

2.) The International Ski Federation.

Soemthing that has to do with Switzerland, at least.

:)

12-8-2012 at 14:06:14

@Peter

Your links do not open. Oui always fixes my broken links, maybe he will do the same with yours.

@Alexander

re: Mirror article.

Alexander, you always give me a laugh. About the bears: I thought they have picnics in the woods … As far as I know one does not soil one’s patch … which may be true for bears too.

The Daltons? Lucky Luke?

@Oui

Very true what you say about Iraq and Iran.

Actually, I will be surprised if someone goes to Iraq and not beaten up.

@Lars

While you are doing a reading for us, or staring into your crystal ball, do, as NR asked, see what December 22 will be like. I am having guests on the night of December 21 and I would like to know whether I would be doing the washing-up on the morning of the 22nd while I air my flat from French stinking cigarette smoke.

I will meanwhile stare into my own crystal ball,although I always see only my own face, and I am not into self-love and self-admiration.

Lars, I am just taking the mickey out of you. These days that expression has changed,but I will use the former version as it is more polite.

12-8-2012 at 14:11:39

@Oui

Thank you for the link to Vinnemann. So he came from Corsica in which case seeing a dead body won’t be new to him.

12-8-2012 at 14:23:14

@All

I am copying and pasting here what I wrote on a previous thread about how the investigation is being handled. If you’ve been with us from the start, you would not need to reread this.

Here goes:

Update: Sunday, October 14, 2012

There is much frustration because both the French and British investigators are not very talkative: In fact, they are not telling us anything about their investigation.

“We need to match up or add to the information we have,” Lieutenant Colonel Vinnemann one of the investigators from the Gendarmerie, told journalists a week or so ago to explain the silence.

As a result journalists are seeking out every possible source and Mayor of Chevaline, Didier Berthollet, has expressed some degree of discontent over the probing by saying to French journalists that their British colleagues have not stopped phoning him for information. The British journalists, he said, wanted to know whether it was Al-Qaida or even the ‘Irish’ who have wiped out the family. He continued that he had no contact with the gendarmes and that his only contact with the criminal police was immediately after the slaying when a police officer asked him for a map of the village.

It is worth pointing out that in the first hours after the shooting more maps had to be taken out and studied to establish whether the lieu of the crime fell in the community of Chevaline or Doussard. Chevaline is 2 kms (1.2 miles) south of Doussard. Now, as we know, it falls within the community of Chevaline.

It is however Prosecutor Eric Maillaud based in Annecy who is being blamed for the investigators’ silence.

The poor chap is however quite innocent as he is very much under the orders of the investigators – in this case the Gendarmerie. Later on, yes, he will be the ‘boss man’ but right now he is not and perhaps he is as frustrated as the journalists and all of us who are interested in this case.

French justice is complicated, so I will try to explain how it works here in France.

A crime is investigated by a team. If the crime has been committed in a town (village etc.) of fewer than 20,000 souls, or out in the countryside, it is the Gendarmerie Nationale which will investigate. Otherwise it will be the Police Nationale. The Gendarmerie falls under the Ministry of Defence (Defense), whereas the National Police falls under the Ministry of Interior. Gendarmes, nicknamed the maréchaussée, therefore always investigate in uniform, live in barracks, and hold military ranks. Other than policing small communities and the country they also carry out criminal investigations although they have to do so under judiciary supervision; guard airports, ports; see to the security in France’s courts; guard visiting dignities and royalty, and our president. At the head of the Gendarmerie is a director-general who is appointed by the Council of Ministers: His rank is that of General – Général d’Armée.

As the Al-Hillis were murdered in a community of fewer than 20,000 souls – 150 people live there – the investigation was for the gendarmes.

The Gendarmerie hierarchy of this case looks like this:

#1 : Colonel Bertrand François head of the Upper Savoy gendarmerie – Haute Savoie. (Annecy falls in Upper Savoy.)

#2 : Lieutenant Colonel Benoît Vinnemann, head of the local Annecy gendarmerie.

Under them they have according to various reports anything from 25 to 150 gendarmes. I would say that 25 is a more realistic number.

However, François and Vinnemann will have to work under judiciary supervision …

Therefore, the two will report the findings of their investigators to an examining magistrate – juge d’instruction.

In this case there are two examining magistrates: Michel Mollin and Christine de Curraize.

The two were appointed by Pros

Maillaud had, in fact, opened two judicial enquiries – informations judiciaries.

One is for ‘assassination’ and the other for ‘attempted assassination’. To complicate matters further I will tell you that in France ‘assassination’ means ‘premeditated murder’ whereas murder – meurtre – is the killing of someone without premeditation.

Prosecutor Eric Maillaud’s role is therefore to listen to what Mollin and de Curraize report to him, which they, in turn, had learned (learnt) from François and Vinnemann. Once, Maillaud has gathered whatever information there is to gather he is to decide whether he has enough evidence to take the case to court, in other words to prosecute the killer/killers successfully.

Then, in court, a chief prosecution counsel – avocat general – assisted by a junior counsel will argue the state’s case. A judge who would be addressed as Mr. President – Monsieur le président – will preside over the court and two magistrates will assist him.

So, you will gather that Maillaud’s role at the moment is to listen and not to upset the apple cart by telling the world what he is being told by Mollin and de Curraize.

12-8-2012 at 14:30:28

@Alexander

re: Plus, “the source” obviously spoke to “The Mirror” and “Daily Mail” alike.

Do these two newspapers share the same editor?

Alexander, no they are in opposition. The one which was second with the news had seen the first edition of the other one and did a ‘matcher’.

12-8-2012 at 15:08:10

@Marilyn
I totally agree with you in that we need to always bear in mind, and make it crystal clear, anything we may write in this thread is just speculation and nothing more. It might actually make sense to emphasize this by having a short disclaimer appear on top of the bulk of comments, like most media outlets routinely do on their sites. And as you stress, we should be extremely careful never to actually incriminate anyone, if only because it seems impossible to solve this case with certainty without access to the dossier.
Meanwhile, theories, assumptions, even innuendoes cannot give way to legal claims, as long as they clearly remain stated as such and are not presented as facts. I don’t see why we should chicken out and give up the opportunity to take whatever small steps we can towards the truth. Otherwise, as you say, why keep this thread open? One thing is for sure: beside its visitors who are posting comments, as I’m currently doing, other persons must monitor it for various other reasons. Amongst the 100-person strong investigating task-force, someone’s assignment must include following blogs dedicated to this file, just in case something of interest turns up. And who knows, maybe the criminal(s) also follow them to assess the odds of getting caught, or just from pride of such public attention. In either case, chances are these extra followers have access to different data, like a webmaster does (e.g. the WorldPress “Stats” page), or possibly more. And so what?

@all
Good to be back after a few days. Wanted to share several comments based on recent posts. Do let me know what you think.

For what it’s worth, let’s not forget the specifics of French criminal procedure. The prosecutor (Procureur) has only limited powers here: he may decide of a preliminary inquest (enquête préliminaire) and monitor it, whether upon a party’s request or of his own initiative. Otherwise decide to dismiss such complaint, unless the requiring party files civil submissions to the Court (constitution de partie civile). In the latter case, it’s up to the complaining party to make its case and provide evidence. In the former case, once the prosecutor has deemed the case ought to be tried, based on findings from his preliminary inquest, he is required to designate an examining judge (juge d’instruction) who thereafter has full authority to conduct further investigation, and eventually bring charges, order arrest, and call any suspect to Court proceedings. As soon as the examining judge has been commissioned, the prosecutor is no longer in charge of the investigation. He may only grant permission to extend it to possible collateral deeds (réquisitoire supplétif) when needed and later give sentencing guidelines to the sentencing judge (or jury) when the case reaches that point. While he is certainly fully aware of findings and evidence gathered by the examining judge, he has a legal obligation to keep such information private and only provide it to defendants or lawful complaining parties. Long story short, as of today, M. Millaud, whatever his talents or limitations are, first only follows the Chevaline case but doesn’t monitor it any longer, second is required to stay mum about specific evidence, findings, testimonies until the case is actually tried in Court. Meanwhile, he remains the natural frontman for the investigating team in answering questions from the media about the case and its progress. It’s obviously some kind of a catch 22, and no surprise if he usually only delivers clichés, ambiguous statements and mostly exhibits wishful thinking. Whether we approve of this or not, that’s his job. He’s being paid for being Clouseau, don’t blame him. It’s just the name of the game. And BTW, the various mentions that he’s a “career lawyer” (?) amount to zero, he’s a former ENM (National Magistrates Academy) graduate, and as such has formerly held, for over 15 years, various positions both as Judge and Prosecutor, albeit he apparently worked a few months for a private law firm. Beware, being a French magistrate, he benefits of a status where any outrageous critic of his professional performance can be deemed “contempt of Court” and lead to prosecution. Cause that’s the law of the land.
I feel rather skeptical about the “drug deal” theory that’s been developed by several of us recently. Not that I assume there wouldn’t be drugs trafficking by Lake Annecy, just like anywhere else. I have no doubt there is. But then, several factors don’t seem to fit in. First, none of the victims or witnesses look likely to have been smalltime street-level dealers. Neither SAH nor BM have that profile. They might have been customers, why not, but would then have managed to get the dope delivered to them in a less trivial manner than a meeting at a forest parking lay-by. They were not prolonged teenagers desperate for a day’s fix. Same seems to be applicable to SM. Whoever he may have been, if only for his relationship with his wealthy potential in-laws, he certainly had no need to submit himself to petty drugs transactions in public surroundings. Obviously, this doesn’t completely exclude the likeliness of one or several of them having been involved in drugs at a higher level. Why not. But in such case, assuming some kind of conflict would have led to a killing, it’d certainly have taken place in a more conventional circumstance, in front of their home, of the café they had breakfast at, or going out from a restaurant. Whether in Marseille, Corsica, or in the Paris suburbs, there are scores of people involved in drugs who’ve been murdered in the last few years. But none of them while having a “secret” meeting in such a secluded place as Martinet. People who do those things just don’t seem to care about decor or subtlety. They just do it.
There’s this ongoing mystery about the initial “phone call” that prompted rescue teams to the scene. Both its exact time (3:48 PM, 4:10 PM ?) and its origin (BM’s cell, PD’s cell, or otherwise) are still obscure to us. Presumably less for the investigating team: Caller ID, call logs, blah blah, they must have known but never said. One option we might consider is that the call actually came from an automatic emergency notification system. Nothing special. It could either have been an optional equipment of the BMW, or a feature provided by a satellite phone within reach of a victim: either way, all you have to do is briefly depress a red pushbutton and rescue gets on its way. Not unlikely even if you’ve just been shot badly but are still alive. And if the Dispatch Center doesn’t get an answer when calling back they usually start by sending first-responders (in France, “les pompiers”, fire brigade), until they become aware it’s criminal and then have police/gendarmerie take over. It looks like this is possibly what happened. And, if so, they have no reason to let us know. But it still implies the entire timeline as we know it ought to be corrected accordingly.
Looking at the picture gallery on his website, you wouldn’t think BM’s house needed so much repairs for a vacation rental. And even if so, most owners would choose to plan whatever DIY work is required off peak season, which certainly includes the first few days of September in this area. Also, according to the iPhone, it only takes 1h 15min to walk -walk!- from that house up to Martinet. It’s a little unusual to hear an accomplished sportsman like him explain it takes 30min just to ride a bike from Chevaline city limits: it’s not even 3.3 km as often mentioned but more like 2.6 (1.6 mile). I realize there’s a steep gradient there, but still, 3 mph ?? Come on. I’m sure even the Gendarmes must have wondered. But if he was confused by the time of the interview and it actually took him less than that, then he should have been passed by the BMW somewhere on the way up. To quote Shakespeare once more, “time is out of joint”, like Hamlet says.
We’ve already discussed means of transportation many times. To begin with, many bicycles, too many. Something struck me recently. For those of us who aren’t familiar with Lake Annecy, it’s good to know it’s one of the few vacation resorts in France that enjoys a dedicated super bike-lane, known as the “Piste Cyclable du Lac Annecy”. Covering some 20 miles from Annecy all the way to Ugine (yes), it stands on the former tracks of an ancient local railway that was closed several decades ago, got a new tarmac and runs parallel to the highway yet isolated from it. Along the way, it passes right next to both camping sites the Al-Hillis stayed at, right next to BM’s rental, and only a few hundred yards from downtown Chevaline before ending at Ugine city limits. Had anyone planned to have a perfect traveling path set for all the players in this case, he could hardly have done any better. This, I think, is either a huge coincidence or a significant clue. What about other suspicious factors? The ONF (Office National des Forêts) obviously has a wide fleet of vehicles of various types depending on their destination. But the most common is simply a regular Citroen commercial hatchback. Forest green (pun intended). It usually comes with a blue flasher on the roof and beige decals on the doors. See pictures on Google image or on the ONF website. It certainly takes a lot of wishful thinking to call one of these a “big 4×4″. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to make the difference. Once again, no reason to exclude that some ONF crew was cruising around and actually summoned that unidentified biker to return to the designated forest road. But it looks rather likely that another car was running away from the crime scene about the same time, which easily explains discrepancies between testimonies. Same for the motorbike. Must have been 2 of them in the vicinity, possibly 3 including the one that teenager was riding off-track. Hence the varying mentions of color and fixtures (top-box, side-bags…).
Long story short, the more we forget about these issues mentioned above, the more we may find the single killer scenario plausible (be him the infamous “lone psychopath”, the angered father-in-law-to-be or the usual drug-ring competitor). The more we keep them in mind, the more we are inclined to assume there was indeed an execution team involved, which would account for the number of shots in a narrow timeframe, but can only fit with motives related to SAH’s Iraqi background or his involvement in sensitive high-tech activities. Also explains various false leads here and there, that are only lures and decoys.

Another conspiracy theory? I don’t give them much credit. Why not just a realistic assessment?

12-8-2012 at 15:14:17

@ Marilyn

My links are fine – the trouble is that the board software has stopped automatically recognizing hyperlinks as such. Oui’s links work because he uses the HTML command a href= etc. etc. to embed his links, which I deliberately do not do myself. Personally, I *hate* clicking on obfuscated links that might direct my browser to some malware-laden site, and I consider it part of good netiquette not to obfuscate links myself. (@ Oui, this is not an ad-hominem attack on you, merely my point of view as a paranoiac.)

12-8-2012 at 16:14:42

@Peter

re: links

I also use the a href etc command. I think the other commentators do too.

By ‘board software’ do you mean where beforehand you could add a link now the blog does not allow you to do so? I’ve not changed anything.

I’m also finding since this morning that I can no longer comment on my ‘admin’ as I always do. I now have to enter my site and do it under ‘leave your response’.

12-8-2012 at 16:15:22

@ Marilyn regarding Daltons:

Yes, Lucky Luke’s Daltons.

Almost like in “Danton”.

Nice to have you laughing.

12-8-2012 at 16:15:40

@Eugene

Bravo! Your comment is a most intelligent and informative one. Keep them coming.

12-8-2012 at 16:18:00

@ Eugène regarding 1h15 min by foot from Brett Martin’s to Martinet:

Google Maps for pedestrians is still in Beta status, isn’t it?

12-8-2012 at 16:28:29

@ Marilyn

By ‘board software’ do you mean where beforehand you could add a link now the blog does not allow you to do so? I’ve not changed anything.

Previously, the blog recognized any expression beginning with http as a hyperlink. Now it no longer does so. In the old threads, too, the http hyperlinks are no longer clickable.

I also use the a href etc command. I think the other commentators do too.

I know you do, and it’s sort of okay for you to do so, because this is your blog and I do not expect you knowingly to post links directing my browser to a site where a “drive-by” infection might occur. I don’t expect Oui to do that, either, but apart from you, he is AFAIK the only other contributor who uses the a href command. As I have said, I generally prefer others not to use that command and do not use it myself.

12-8-2012 at 16:30:34

@Peter

<a href="http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=search&offset=0&old_count=30&type=diary_by&topic=&section=&string=Oui&search=Search&count=50"@BoomanTribune I write dairies and post comments on a daily basis and use embedded html codes exclusively. My interest is international politics and the conflicts the US is involved with. The possible implication of a foreign intelligence service in the Annecy killings caught my attention. I personally am very careful about links and probably beat you in the paranoic ranking. ;) :)

As you are aware, by moving the mouse over the link you can read it on your screen without clicking and opening it. Once you are acquainted with the site and commenters, paranoa is usually replaced by trust.

12-8-2012 at 16:33:23

Previous comment …

Missed a single element “>” in the html code and it messed up!

@BoomanTribune I write dairies

12-8-2012 at 16:34:08

@Alexander
You probably know this better than I. But assuming the Tom-Tom estimate shown on my Apple device would be short by 10 pc, does it make things any different? On this specific topic, the main points we should want to clarify remain:
a) why do we miss any clue to what the “hour-and-a-half” bike ride included, coming from a start point 2.5 miles away
b) what unexpected initerary was used that led the Beamer and the mountain-bike to miss each other on the way up

12-8-2012 at 16:56:59

@Marilyn Z.

Transfer from Corsica most likely because most cases were solved … look what’s happening today! At Annecy it’s a whole new ballgame and the participants will follow a different set of rules. Rural communities usually don’t want intrusion by outsiders into their affairs.

In addition as I became aware, the parking Martinet is just about the frontier line between Haute Savoie and Savoie. Sometimes the border is guarded and one needs to express their purpose for entering the Savoie.

“The route to Col de Chérel is hazardous as there is some notoriety of motorcyclists who are not acquainted with the Savoie region and customs and sometimes try to escape into the Haute Savoie. We do require our passports as we’ll be investigating across the border and the local natives have been restless.”

12-8-2012 at 17:49:51

@Oui

Thanks for the links.

I am puzzled at this sentence Sometimes the border is guarded and one needs to express their purpose for entering the Savoie.

A border between Haute Savoie and Savoie. This is very much not so.

Or are they talking of the border between France and Switzerland?

12-8-2012 at 19:27:46

Going for dinner now.

Tomorrow is another day …

12-8-2012 at 22:18:16

More on the fiasco over the hospital prank call imitating The Queen & the (allegedly – not proven) suicided nurse in England. One paper said she died in the street, not a usual place for a suicide. This from The Mirror:

“A bit of a laugh? The Australian radio pranksters have blood on their hands. What they did was cruel and stupid – cruel to Kate, to William, to the staff of that hospital and to that vulnerable unborn child.”

Now they’ve involved the precious unborn child in this. What about The Queen’s corgis? I’m sure they’re feeling awful.

The Daily Mail has thousand of comments, 4000 on one story alone, most screaming for the heads of the Australian DJs. What if those two double suicide and jump off Ayers Rock or the top of the Sydney Opera House? Who do the mob go after then? Not themselves surely.

There’s something to think of about any of us naming a name here. What if it’s a wrong name and the named person suicides? Then the British mobs led by their tabloids would come after the person who named the name. Since Marilyn’s page has a pic of The Louvre at the top, they’ll storm the place looking for Marilyn, hoping to torture her and learn the ISP number of the commenter, such is their logic, and destroy billions of Euros worth of priceless art.

It isn’t only England where this insanity reigns. A few months ago, in Vancouver, Canada, a schoolmate bullied a girl to suicide online. The vaunted hacker group Anonymous, noted for bringing down servers at banks over WikiLeaks, volunteered to track the fiend, and promptly named the wrong person, who had a physical mob appear at his house. Next day Anonymous named the “correct” person. Don’t know what happened to him or her. The city and country were in turmoil for days, and the police wasted much time on the matter.

12-8-2012 at 22:29:21

@Marilyn Z.

Website Pour La Savoie is renewed, last link mutated to photo gallery. You must be aware of these border crossing, it’s a serious matter as you can see here. ;)

Are these crazies for real in the Savoie (alert anti-zionism) Echo des Montagnes and hostage photo. In their crazy conspiracy they do link Savoie to Corsica. See also Google search for “echo des montagnes”. Sometimes search for images “pour la savoie” gives surprise leads, link here.

12-9-2012 at 01:04:53

@ NR

I can make a fairly educated guess at the “leak” on which @ Lars – noticed his absence? I reckon that there is more to come from that quarter soon – based his statement. So can you, I am sure.

In my opinion, Lars played his hand both wisely, to maximal effect, and prudently. There is no need to name any names; the man who was meant to read Lars’ contribution will either read it himself soon or be told about it. SM’s eldest son and the son’s girlfriend both deleted all their tweets and closed down their Twitter accounts after those were discussed on Craig Murray’s web site. Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that SM’s family are essentially doing the same thing we are doing, using his name as a search term on Google every morning. On a personal note, they are probably just as bewildered by the fact that public interest in this case just won’t die down – even though the police had *promised* them it would, boo-hoo! – as I am by the fact that my own vicarious interest in this matter doesn’t diminish, remains an itch that simply needs to be scratched. They might as well get used to the idea that, as long as this case isn’t cleared up, the questions just won’t go away. It will never stop, ever, until the murderer is found.

12-9-2012 at 03:37:29

Interesting post, Lars. Almost sounds like you are suggesting a conspiracy!

… but you don’t know the reasons behind the conspiracy

…. and conspirators afraid, but with the power to “counter leak” to manipulate the media.

Are you sure you are not confusing the “not doing something” with a simple desire for privacy?

I’m still totally in the dark but others obviously see what you are talking about.

I hope you are right about the picture becoming clearer soon.

Personally I’m not interested in the name(s) of the killer or killers but the reasons for this horrible crime.

12-9-2012 at 03:51:46

A totally new theory as to those responsible for the massacre at Chevaline, and many other crimes as well. A world exclusive, right here on marilynztomlins.com

Look to the money. Who has profited? It is none other than the British Tabloids! It is they who commissioned the assassination to increase newspaper sales and generate web hits!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/mediamonkeyblog/2012/oct/22/rupert-murdoch-conrad-black

” … Former Daily Telegraph owner Conrad Black, who was released from jail for fraud in May, [fired] some barbed one liners at his newspaper rival, Rupert Murdoch: “He’s a psychopath … like Stalin, except that he doesn’t kill people”.”

Or does he?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9913805c-ad82-11e0-bc4f-00144feabdc0.html

“”Murdoch, like Napoleon, is a great bad man. It would be astonishing if some News International employees had not engaged in crimes, revelling in the climate of immunity that has been the group’s modus operandi for decades. Successive UK governments of both major parties supinely truckled to him. ”

There is precedent for bad people running media empires. In the US, Hearst not only started the Spanish-American war, but allegedly murdered someone on his yacht. (It’s OK, he was aiming for Charlie Chaplin, who he suspected of having an affair with his mistress, and missed.)

http://www.lambiek.net/artists/h/hearst_wr.htm

“Soon he was the chief of a whole chain of American newspapers and magazines, giving him tremendous power over the distribution of information. Some say he used this to initiate the Spanish-American War of 1898, inciting anti-Spanish sentiments, with the object of increasing sales. He is also said to have inspired political assassination, writing an editorial piece about it just before President McKinley was killed. Hearst’s ferocious and often immoral style of journalism was soon called “yellow journalism”, after the strip ‘The Yellow Kid’ by R.F. Outcault which was printed in one of Hearst’s papers.”

http://www.snopes.com/movies/other/ince.asp

“… rumors flew around Hollywood that newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst had shot Ince aboard Hearst’s yacht, the Oneida.”

We know even the respectable media, going back many years, stage- managed events, such as street demonstrations, for maximum impact. Now they’ve moved on to more nefarious activitity.

It’s not only Chevaline. Did they murder the hospital nurse and claim it was a suicide brought on by a prank phone call? Did they stuff Gareth Williams in the red bag? Are they the ones whose anonymous white vans cruise the streets ready to snatch a cute child whenever circulation drops? Do they kill kittens and fake emails from Holland?

Help us unmask the Fiendish, Monstrous news barons and their evil minions!

12-9-2012 at 04:28:06

NR, the Murdoch Childrens Research Institute in Australia had a roundabout connection to the late Lachlan Cranswick, via his brother.

http://www.mcri.edu.au/research/core-facilities/australian-paediatric-pharmacology-research-unit/

What is with pharmacists and pharmacologists being connected to mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers, etc.?

12-9-2012 at 08:59:04

@ bleb:

Just for the record: I am totally in the dark, too.

Contrary to you, I am not only interested in the motive, but also in the name of the killer.

But in the interest of Marilyn’s blog, we should not guess, at least not with giving names.

Alex

12-9-2012 at 09:18:26

@ Lars:

I’ve carefully re-read your text, still not understanding anything.

You might help me, even without giving any more clues or the name of the person who knows who the killer is, by simply explaining

why is it essential that no photo of Sylvain Mollier surfaces?

12-9-2012 at 09:22:26

Morning everyone.

Will read in and be back then. Will however be out for most of the day.

(No, I am not running off with Lars, but he might have run away – from me, because my long knives are out.)

12-9-2012 at 10:04:46

@ Marilyn:

Aah, now I get it – Lars’ “person, who knows who the killer is”, is – Marilyn!

At least I can mention *her* name her here!

:)

12-9-2012 at 10:13:59

@Alexander

No I am not the shooter.

I am Prosecutor Maillaud in disguise.

12-9-2012 at 10:16:02

@ A Non 12-9-2012 at 04:28:06 “NR, the Murdoch Childrens Research Institute in Australia had a roundabout connection to the late Lachlan Cranswick, via his brother. What is with pharmacists and pharmacologists being connected to mysterious deaths of scientists, engineers, etc.?”

The Children’s Research Institute is pro conventional Western medicine and pro big Pharma drugs.

“… Wikileaks leader Philip Adams … chairs the Advisory Board of the Centre for the Mind at Sydney University and the Australian National University… Rupert Murdoch’s son, Lachlan Murdoch, has served as well until 2001.”

Julian Assange was raised in an Australian cult called “The Great White Brotherhood” or the Santiniketan Park Association aka the Family. Children in the cult were drugged with Big Phrama drugs in mind control exercises like MK-Ultra.

The New York Times attempted to smear Assange by quoting his flatmate who said he abused the roomie’s cat and refused to flush the toilet. Following worldwide hoots of derision the NYT scrubbed the story from the web, but a paper edition remains.

More allegations of cat/kitten abuse, yet the mind controllers are most often associated with Satanic cults that worship cats. Any claims of cat abuse in this case? Was the shooter pre-programmed by Murdoch’s minions to assassinate upon hearing a phrase whispered by a handler hiding in the shrubs? :)

12-9-2012 at 11:33:06

@ all

I am not Lars’ spokesman, but I find his reasoning quite easy to follow. Look at the cast of characters here:
http://www.libramemoria.com/fr/carnet/ugine/savoie/sylvain-mollier-bb0d023f32194e358b1b5b601cf4bc2f.html
and ask yourselves: Who is in charge of “media relations” for the bereaved? Who is responsible for the fact that not a single image of SM has been released so far?

Part of the answer is to be found in The Sunday Times article “The little orphans of Annecy” – in the bits that Marilyn deleted from the previous thread, but which the Google cache still holds in its entirety. A brief quote, if I may: The Sunday Times Magazine spoke to Mollier’s family. In the hairdressing salon where she works, in the town of Ugine, in the Rhône-Alpes, his ex-wife began crying when she recalled what had happened. She had been asked by Mollier’s new partner not to speak and did not want to create difficulties. The family had placed a notice in the local paper, thanking the community for its support and “discretion”. Do they have something to hide, or are they, quite reasonably, asking for privacy in their grief?

Next, go back to earlier events and ask yourselves who amongst the aforementioned cast of characters couldn’t wait to have SM cremated as quickly as possible, even clashing with the police over this matter? (…) as Sylvain Mollier, who worked in the nuclear industry, was ‘temporarily buried’ in a secret ceremony yesterday. This went against the wishes of the 45-year-old’s family, who had asked for him to be cremated.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204165/French-Alps-massacre-Could-Sylvain-Mollier-main-target.html

It is not all that difficult to work out who wants to see the memory of SM obliterated as quickly as possible, is it?

Finally, there is the question of who recommended the cycling route to SM that took him to the Martinet, and how come he was supposed to have strayed from it. The Sunday Times picked up on that inconsistency as well: (…) We have discovered that he was given the route by his father-in-law, Thierry Schutz, also a keen cyclist (…) We were told that despite his cycling experience he (SM) had never taken this route before, and had strayed from it. He had been at the car park “by mistake”, a police source told The Sunday Times.

12-9-2012 at 12:05:35

@ Marilyn

It was not The Sunday Times who complained to you about Lars and I quoting that article and made you delete those postings, was it?

12-9-2012 at 12:36:11

@ Peter regarding the Daily Mail’s “[the temorary funeral] went against the wishes of the 45-year-old’s family.”

I always considered the father of Sylavin Mollier’s girlfriend “family” in that sense.

12-9-2012 at 12:46:01

@ Alexander Cartier 12-9-2012 at 12:36:11

Indeed. I consider it quite likely that Marilyn can count that man amongst the avid readers of this discussion.

Looking back over the previous thread, I found that some quotes from The Sunday Times article have gone missing, including my own brief excerpts, which I thought represented fair use under pretty much any copyright law under the sun. Conversely, about half of Lars’ full transcript – which possibly represents a violation of applicable copyright laws – has remained untouched. This led me to conclude that it was not The Sunday Times itself who complained about those quotes.

12-9-2012 at 12:54:57

@ Peter:

Hmm? Maybe I didn’t express mwself correctly or I am just not understanding your response right, but what I was trying to say is:

The temporary funeral might have been against *even* that man’s wishes.

Which would make him quite a smaller suspect.

12-9-2012 at 13:10:35

@ Alexander Cartier

My interpretation is that “the family” wanted SM to be cremated a.s.a.p., but the police disagreed. Hence, they settled on a compromise solution, the temporary burial.

12-9-2012 at 13:22:12

@Lars and Peter

I think I get it, so a waiting game then.

What is it with the temporary burial, why would they need to dig up a body again, surely it will be deteriorating and if the authorities were unsure of something wouldn’t they keep it in the freezer? I’ve never understood this as they must have DNA, tissue samples, fingerprints and more.

12-9-2012 at 13:24:05

@ Peter:

Aah, I got it! Complicated, but finally.

And this “wishing family” would then exclude his two older sons and their mother ’cause they’re underage and ex, respectively?

And his father was dead and his mother in a retirement home?

12-9-2012 at 14:01:57

@Peter – I guess if the quotes in your post of 12-9-2012 at 11:33:06 get removed then you and Lars may be onto something.

Until then I remain unconvinced and tend to think Eugene, post of 12-8-2012 at 15:08:10 (later part of post), is nearer the mark.

12-9-2012 at 14:26:02

Gremlins!

Are the gremlins active again? Posts disappearing and reappearing, the thread is nowhere near its limit of 1,000 comments.

Did Marylyn Z. ever launch her exclusive item on the case? At least the guesswork has narrowed down, does this indicate we are close to unveiling the motive and killer X?

Have you seen this video?
http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-20h/tuerie-en-haute-savoie-qui-est-le-cycliste-abattu-7508374.html

12-9-2012 at 14:34:56

I updated the post on my website. I repeat what I wrote as you would probably not be reading it on the site itself. Tomorrow I will update again which will be something about Xavier Baligant.

UPDATE: Sunday, December, 9, 2012

When the killer is, or the killers are, apprehended and brought to justice what do they risk?

They will not be sentenced to death. This is for sure. France abolished capital punishment – death by guillotine – in 1981, but had not guillotined anyone after September 1977.

Prosecutor of Annecy, Eric Maillaud, is supervising two judicial enquiries – informations judiciares – for this case which the French call la tuerie de Chevaline – the Chevaline killing or slaughter.

One is for assassination.

The other is for attempted assassination.

The first is of course for the quadruple assassination of the adults, while the latter is for the attempt to kill seven-year-old Zainab Al-Hilli. I suppose that at a later stage the prosecutor could make it a double attempted assassination by adding the name of the four-year-old discovered alive in the rear well of the BMW.

(In France assassination is what premeditated murder is called. Killing someone, in say some kind of accident or in a lover’s tiff (a crime of passion) is called murder – meurtre.

So what could the sentence be should the killer/killers be found guilty?

For assassination the punishment is life in prison. (Art. 221-3.) Le meurtre commis avec préméditation constitue un assassinat. Il est puni de la réclusion criminelle à perpétuité.

For murder the punishment is 30 years in prison. (Art. 221-1.) As given in the Code Pénal (Criminal Code) Le fait de donner volontairement la mort à autrui constitue un mertre. Il est [imi de trente ans de réclusion criminelle.

There is also Art. 222.7 which stipulates – Violence leading to death without the intension of doing so is punished with fifteen years of imprisonment. A lawyer could claim that the death of the Al-Hillis and of Sylvain Mollier were unintentional. Les violences ayant entraîne la mort sans intention de la donner sont punies de quinze ans de réclusion criminelle.

As for the attack on Zainab Al-Hilli, it also is defined under Art. 221 of the Criminal Code and the sentence depends on the victim’s age (in France a minor is under the age of 15) and the circumstances of the criminal act. The sentence could be from five to fifteen years.

If the smuggling of drugs was involved in the murders then more years will be added.

For example Art. 222-34 stipulates: The fact of controlling or organizing a group having for object the illegal production, manufacture, import, export, transport, possession, offer, supply, acquisition or use of drugs is punished by life imprisonment and a fine of €7,500,000. Yes, that is the amount incredible as it may seem.

12-9-2012 at 14:43:33

@Oui and @All

This is important

You must all watch the video on Oui’s comment of 2012/12/09 at 2.26 p.m.

You will see two cyclists. You will see the Sylvain Mollier house. You will see a woman in a hairdressing salon.And you will see another cyclist. You will see Sylvain Mollier’s work colleagues.

Do we finally know what Sylvain Mollier looked like? And have we finally seen his lovely house.

And — he is not the grey-haired man in the grey pullover of that photo ..

Have a look!

@Oui

Thank you for finding this video and sharing it with us. Great stuff.

12-9-2012 at 14:49:19

@ Eugene

Whilst smaller vehicles are used, in the mountains it is customary to have a 4×4, as this is multipurpose and used in all weathers.

They don’t have a back seat but a grill behind the driver/front passenger seats. They are equipped with a mobile office and rescue equipment etc.

@All

Just a thought, Sylvains next of kin would be his mother and children (the former surrefring from Dementia or similar, the latter too young to make decisions). He has three brothers and a sister, from whom we’ve heard nothing, Claire was no relation whatsoever, they were not married so she has no rights other than those that the next of kin allow her.

This business of going to Iraq is laughable, if it is anything to do with that country then the gunman and any trace of him is long gone, this would be a very good way to bury the whole event.

12-9-2012 at 14:56:20

@ Lynda 12-9-2012 at 13:22:12

What is it with the temporary burial, why would they need to dig up a body again, surely it will be deteriorating and if the authorities were unsure of something wouldn’t they keep it in the freezer? I’ve never understood this as they must have DNA, tissue samples, fingerprints and more.

I don’t know how these things are handled in France, but, usually, the police would also routinely commission a comprehensive toxicological screening, even if the victim appears to have been shot. Such a full tox screen takes several weeks. *If* anything should be discovered during the tox screen, fresh samples must be taken and tested by a different lab using different methods. The body having been buried for a few weeks or months in the meantime makes no difference – one can still run these toxicological tests on egyptian mummies, for example. Not on the ashes of a cremated person, though. That is why the police will have made the family wait before permitting them to cremate the body.

12-9-2012 at 15:10:53

@Peter and @Oui and @Bleb and @Alexander and @Lynda and @All

I do not recall saying in a comment that the Sunday Times asked me to remove our transcript of the article of the Sunday Times Magazine. I kept it on for 48 hrs and then I removed it because of copyright laws of which I do not claim to know everything but because of the little that I do know I know that one can’t rerun another publication’s or website’s contents. Peter, I know Google is doing so every minute and the papers and publishers are complaining about it and taking Google to court to stop it, but well, I can’t follow Google’s example because I do not have its money to hire lawyers to defend me.

Peter, I do not recall having removed your comment to Lars’ transcripts.

Also, Peter, I checked, you, having pointed out that the transcripts were still on my site, and indeed so they were. They are though no longer on my admin pages. I work (and comment) on admin and not on the site itself as you all do.

Oui, yes, the Gremlins are active. I am recalling that Alexander said ‘do not give them water’ so I am hoping that as I am not giving them water, they will not become nasty.

Lynda, Sylvain’s next-of-kin will be his eldest brother. You are right, Claire Schutz has no rights. I hope he had made a will or she will find herself out in the cold. This had happened to a couple I knew who were not legally married but had been together for 20 years. He died suddenly (fell down dead in the bistro of a heart-attack) and as he had not made a will, she was out. The day after the funeral his brothers walked into the bistro and told her to get out.

Re: the temporary burial of Sylvain Mollier.

Who said it was? If it were one of the London papers then we should not consider it as Gospel.

12-9-2012 at 15:16:29

Ha Ha Lynda . . . for the record I am totes tee-total, ne fumer pas, grow all my own food, declutter the mind-fill with yoga and do not have a TV. . . in that sense I realise I am a bit of a boho weirdo.
But my pondering are just that ponderings. Sometimes intuition is the strongest force entering from the left-field and sometimes the analytical takes the centre stage. I work at getting equally balanced brain hemispheres you see . . so back there it felt like a Eureka moment!
Eheu!

12-9-2012 at 15:26:51

@J – glad you saw the funny side, you understand my tipple is gin !

@ Peter, I get about the tox reports, this has happened often, haven’t they just dug up Yasser Afafat ?

Here is something to contemplate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7288543.stm

The guilty often parade themselves as innocents.

12-9-2012 at 15:38:27

@J Cave

Never a glass of bubbly?

12-9-2012 at 15:38:46

@ J_Cave:

What is this “totes tee-total” and where can I get it?

[In reference to that Craig Murray user asking "What is this 'MZT' and where can I get it?"]

:)

12-9-2012 at 15:59:17

@ Marilyn

So I jumped to conclusions regarding why you deleted those postings in the previous thread ;-)

I am by no means an expert on IP law, but I think that I can offer one piece of valid legal advice: Violating the law for a limited period of 48 hours only is not an excuse that will wash in court.

12-9-2012 at 16:02:30

@Marilyn Z.

Video is still there but photo of two cyclists has been deleted. Gremlins?

Link does provides more interesting videos of Tuerie en Haute-Savoie.

12-9-2012 at 16:35:24

Workman at location where he saw BMW of al-Hilli family pass-by (video few seconds)
http://www.wat.tv/video/tuerie-chevaline-scene-crime-593op_2i0u7_.html

12-9-2012 at 16:44:43

@Oui and @All

Please note this is important

Oui, no, the video is still intact.

Do have a look all of you.

They won’t show a cyclist who is not Sylvain Mollier while speaking of Sylvian Mollier.

So he is quite well-built. Has closely-cropped hair and what’s left is greying. He wears an earring in his right ear.

He is not however the black-haired guy on that photo of the meeting. He is also not the man in the grey pullover as I said in a previous comment.

The video is of a 8 p.m. Sept 6 TF1 network news report. It is interesting as the anchor (Gilles Bouleau considered France’s top news anchor) says that the British cyclist said that a 4×4 came riding towards him at full speed just before he reached the lay-by.

12-9-2012 at 16:46:54

@Alexander:

re: MZT

HeeHee!

12-9-2012 at 17:08:37

Marilyn . . . Last time I tried a few glasses of champagne at a wedding . . . I misbehaved inappropriately, upset one of my kids a lot and was horribly sick all over a lovely hotel room.

12-9-2012 at 17:12:12

@ Marilyn 12-9-2012 at 16:44:43

The video was filmed *after* SM’s death. Unless they found some archival footage of SM on a bike and spliced it into their report without mentioning it, that guy on the bike was just a random cyclist passing by – or a paranormal phenomenon :-)

12-9-2012 at 17:13:44

@J Cave

re: champagne

The trick is just a couple of glasses. Drink slowly as if it’s pure gold and you took a bond on your house to have been able to buy it.

12-9-2012 at 17:53:26

@Peter and @All

re Sylvian Mollier video

Yes it was filmed on the 6th and viewed that night at 8. I think they can’t show a cyclist and say ‘ce cycliste’ meaning Sylvain Mollier when it is not him.They must have found the footage at the cycling club.

They would not have had permission from his family to show a photo of him, so instead they showed brief footage.

In France it is forbidden to publish someone’s photo without that person’s permission. Just as it is against the law to take a photo of a person without that person’s permission. I know paparazzi are doing so all the time, yet it is against the law.

One is also not allowed to take (and publish) a photo of someone’s property. A grave falls under ‘property’. It is obviously for this reason that we have not seen a photo of Sylvain Mollier’s grave.

I know that tourists are forever taking photos of graves – that of Oscar Wilde for example – but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it is against the law. I was stopped in a cemetery taking photos of ‘my’ murderer’s grave – Dr. Petiot. When I protested that people are taking photos in Pere Lachaise, for example, it was explained to me that it was, in fact, illegal.

Anyway, that cyclist, be he Sylvain Mollier or not, is now in my mind *the* Solvain Mollier. He has a build very similar to that of Brett Martin.

12-9-2012 at 18:48:36

@Marilyn

I don’t see the same thing as you, I think that was filmed the same day, along the cycle route that Eugene mentions, so it isn’t Sylvain Mollier just an example of cyclists, that is not someone of ‘medium build’ – looks more body builder.

Maybe the guys were happy with the filming, happens all the time.

In mentioning Eugene, I too have mused over why BM said he saw the 4×4 and the ONF vehicle didn’t see him, I think I mentioned before, could the ONF vehicle have left the area by another route ? After signalling to the motorbike to return to the road, they did not speak to him, according to Liberation, they also can’t say much about the bike or rider – too far away perhaps ?

If BM is to be believed, he said he had to move close to the side of the road to let the 4×4 vehicle pass, but the ONF apparently didn’t see him. Two thoughts, two different vehicles, BM saw the ONF vehicle and bargained that they had seen him, but they hadn’t, he wasn’t to know that at the time of the first interview.

Claire Schutz won’t recieve a widows pension either, again not being married, they didn’t own where they lived and even if SM had a death in service payment, it would be split between the three children, as will his share of unpaid out estate of Roger Mollier.

There is not a monetary gain to Claire and her family as far as I can see.

Nevertheless, I don’t understand how a whole family and extended family and friends are too afraid or agree to not have Sylvain Molliers image publicised. Althiough I do understand Claire Schutz asking Lydie Ringot not to say anything, Claire is being naturally possessive as the new partner, maybe there was an element of animosity.

12-9-2012 at 18:50:07

re: cyclists in video

Neither of the first two cyclists on that video look like proper club cyclists. Assuming they were but had just gone out without their proper gear when filmed then the guy riding behind definitely does not have the build of of a cyclist who would find it easy going uphill, far too much upper body weight. Wasn’t SM described as gamin & a good climber?

The last cyclist shown on his own does look the part but I assume you are not talking about him.

I am glad this hasn’t headed where I thought it might be heading – a racist motive. How could the appearance of SM be so important?

12-9-2012 at 21:43:25

@bleb

re: importance of photo of Sylvain Mollier

Bleb, I too wonder why it is so important that we see what these people look like. It won’t tell us anything about them.

What do you mean by this – I am glad this hasn’t headed where I thought it might be heading – a racist motive. How could the appearance of SM be so important?

I am sure to all of us here commenting, Sylvain Mollier was a human being just as the Al-Hillis were human beings too.

12-9-2012 at 21:46:54

@Lynda

re: the Mollier and Schutz families.

As you will know, according to UK media the French investigators are yet again now focusing on an Iraqi connection.

I wonder when comments here will dry up? One can speculate just so much.

12-9-2012 at 22:07:52

@NR

re: the media

You do not much like the media do you?

Yes, the London papers have had a field day with Al-Hilli and now they will do so again with the suicide of the hospital’s telephone operator.

12-9-2012 at 22:12:30

La-ars!

Why is it essential that no photo of Sylvain Mollier surfaces?

12-9-2012 at 22:23:13

@Marilyn

re: [i]what did I mean?[/i]

That I was afraid that because some posters were attaching such importance to the appearance of SM that they were thinking there must be something immediately obvious about SM (maybe black or brown skin) and that he was murdered for that reason.

There was no intention to dehumanise SM or the AHs, far from it.

Also no intention to suggest anyone posting was trying to do that. Just the suggestion that some posters were thinking the killer(s) might be racists and killed for that reason.

12-9-2012 at 22:27:57

How could the appearance of SM be so important?

That is precisely it, how could it? What possible harm could releasing a photo of him do? I do not claim to possess the same kind of all-round erudition in the world of murder as Marilyn, but I cannot think of a *single case* where the bereaved family have clammed up like this, where not even the resourceful UK tabloids with their deep pockets have been unable to coax a single photo of the victim out of relatives, friends or neighbours. Can you?

Whatever the reason(s), this behaviour is highly unusual. I simply do not accept the explanation that this is merely be the behaviour of a french hillbilly family safeguarding its privacy. They have Internet access. Thus, they must have realized by now that, if this tactic originally *was* about preserving their privacy, it has backfired badly, creating the the opposite effect intended.

12-9-2012 at 23:04:44

Off-topic: Given that @ J Cave already mentioned left and right brain hemispheres today, here is an offbeat idea that occurred to me today.

CEZUS’ workplace safety is not what it ought to be. SM’s taking paternal leave was a euphemism for him taking paid medical leave, all very hush-hush. His latest child has a congenital birth defect caused by his exposition to radioactive and/or noxious materials. His new-found friends from Solidarité & Progrès urged him to go public with his grievances, but he refrained, for the sake of his family.

CEZUS promised to take care of him, his child and his new fiancée. In return, the family have sworn not to talk about him publicly and not to publish any recent photos of him, which would show him already having lost his hair etc. Even the future in-laws consider it their civic duty not to ruin Ugine’s key industry by speaking out of turn on this matter – although they have a nasty, nasty suspicion regarding who would have wanted to see SM dead, and why. But then again, he would soon have died anyway, and at least he died quickly and more or less painlessly this way.

There, I just had to let that out of my system ;-)

12-10-2012 at 00:41:25

http://www.ugine.com/UserFiles/File/CM/compte_rendu_20120130.pdf
a reference to “maisons mollier”at the very end of this document, which is a meeting report of the municipality Ugine from January 2012.

Is this the inherited property, a large apartment house, SM tried to sell? http://goo.gl/maps/SpGrI . (Roger Mollier died May 2011)

The house is home to H.L.M (subsidised housing)office Ugine and might be mentioned here, too, http://solidariteprogres73.elunet.fr/index.php/post/02/07/2011/Logement-social-%3A-OPH-et-SEMsuite

12-10-2012 at 09:00:25

Good morning. New day. New week. Still same month … soon to end.

@George

re: Maison Mollier.

An HLM is state property. Normally an HLM is given a name. Maison Tomlins for example. (No need to look for one because there ain’t any.) The surname Mollier is of the Haute Savoie. There are very many Molliers living there. Once a Mollier must have been someone important in the region and thus an HLM was named after this person. At the end of your first link there is reference to 2 maisons Mollier. So two HLM’s have been named after that Mollier.

@Peter

re: Cezus.

A new and interesting look at these murders. You know, nothing will surprise me. However, the investigation has, if the British media, is to be believed, shifted back to Al-Hilli as the main target.

@bleb

Good that we cleared the air about the interest in seeing what Sylvain Mollier looked like.

@All

I will be ‘otherwise engaged’ for the next 48 hrs and will therefore not look in during the day, but only at the end of the day.

12-10-2012 at 09:18:45

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-9-2012 at 22:07:52
“@NR re: the media. You do not much like the media do you?
“Yes, the London papers have had a field day with Al-Hilli and now they will do so again with the suicide of the hospital’s telephone operator.”

I don’t exactly hate the media and work in it and with it from time to time.
To modify Bismark’s observation, “The news is like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.”

It’s the excesses I object to, especially in the UK, of creating and encouraging howling mobs, especially dangerous now with the web. The UK Sun fabricates stories, fakes Facebook pages to discredit the police in a foreign country, fakes emails to sensationalize a story, etc.

All OK if they ensnare some hapless yob, chav or hooligan and “bring him to justice”. If they had their own missile-bearing drones (wait a few years) they’d be happy to use those for the task as our esteemed world leaders do. Saves time and money, the bother of a trial, and stupid jurors who disagree with the mob.

The witch-hunt in London is today calling for the extradition of the Australian DJs to the UK to stand trial. Shortly, some Los Angeles big-time porn stars in cahoots with a biker gang will send an expeditionary force Down Under to capture the fiends.

A timely story about Murdoch doing some king-making: “Fox’s man in the White House: how team Murdoch touted Petraeus for the presidency:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/foxs-man-in-the-white-house-how-team-murdoch-touted-petraeus-for-the-presidency-20121205-2auie.html

Don’t have anything in particular against Murdoch. Without him and his Fox network, US TV would be solid Democratic party propaganda. Strangely, US talk-radio is almost entirely right-wing propaganda, while leftists never attract a radio audience.

It would be best if media stopped the pretense of impartiality. Their number one job is to make money for their owners and the second is to push an agenda. Accuracy, truth and justice are far lower priorities.

12-10-2012 at 10:15:26

@Peter
Woah! This scenario would certainly ramp up the pathos of any potential movie script.

I know of a dental techician who died from Mercury poisoning.
Zirconium is used in Crowns for teeth so cant be that dangerous by itself.? Can it?
I think it is welded by Argon gas.

REF Face of SM

In Australia when watching a film with an Aboriginal actor . . a statement come up over the title saying no disrespect of their ancestors is intended. Some people DO believe photographs steal your soul and I empathise with that idea.
In Totnes once this guy took a photo of me . . unasked. When confronted he said that he thought it was OK because I was just part of the composition . . a patch of the right colour pink. Huh?

However in this case the non-photograph thing seems to indicate something to hide rather than the principle of privacy . . even if that was not the intention.

PS Horse was the Urban name for Heroin in the sixties

12-10-2012 at 11:34:45

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-9-2012 at 17:13:44
“@J Cave re: champagne “The trick is just a couple of glasses. Drink slowly as if it’s pure gold and you took a bond on your house to have been able to buy it.”

My vast experience with champagne was at what are now called “Gentlemens Clubs” — ha, ha, — not many gentlemen there. The chicks simply insisted on multiple bottles, they could drink nothing else. I recall it served in large flat glasses and a little wooden stick with a sort of propeller on one end was supplied to spin in the champagne to eliminate too many bubbles. The old saying applies, “A fool & his money are soon parted, but the memories last forever.”

@ Marilyn
“I wonder when comments here will dry up? One can speculate just so much.”

Comments are slowing down already, partly because of the holidays, but as you say, we’re running out of anything new to say. Peter’s astounding theory may help.

@ Peter 12-9-2012 at 23:04:44
“CEZUS’ workplace safety is not what it ought to be…
His new-found friends from Solidarité & Progrès urged him to go public with his grievances, but he refrained, for the sake of his family.”

Interesting idea, and it explains much, but I fear you’ve done it now – let the kittens out of the bag. The anti-nuclearists will read it and turn it into a cause célèbre – big cover-up of crimes to protect nuke industry. It may help solve the mystery though if they do. Cezus and the French government would be forced to make denials, statements and explanations. However, if the theory is wrong, anybody saying so will be branded a stooge of the nuke biz.

12-10-2012 at 12:00:26

@ NR, J Cave

It is not even a theory, just a random idea that occurred to me while I was racking my brain for something that could explain why *everybody* on the french side keeps mum: the family (because CEZUS are compensating them, and their silence is part of that deal), the neighbours and other townfolk (because CEZUS is a major employer in the area), and the french police (because harming the country’s nuclear industry would be a career-ending move).

Moreover, it would explain why SM was off work and regularly on his bike (following the latest medical advice and fighting cancer through vigorous excercise). His work, where he might inhale zirconium particles, could really have made him ill:
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7347
A single worker exposed to both zirconium and hafnium for 7 years developed a granulomatous lung condition.
It is rare for that to happen, but then that’s precisely the kind of situation one would expect if it did happen: If workers at CEZUS died like flies, they would have to do something about their production methods urgently; as long as it is only one in x hundred, it may be cheaper for them to pay compensation than to rebuild their factory.

It would also explain why the family wanted to have him cremated asap. However, it does not explain who killed him, nor does it explain why the AHs were killed as well. Most importantly, there is not a shred of evidence for any of this – thus, it really is just an idle thought.

12-10-2012 at 12:20:31

@Peter

In the metallurgical process at Cézus there is no radioactivity involved. There could be inadequate processing procedures in place for zirconium, linking health problems to long term employees. Sylvain Mollier had worked for 20 years in the plant.

Correction, zircon may cause health issues: Natural radionuclides in zircon and related radiological impact (airborn dust). A late investment by Cézus/Areva in 2009 – Retech Enters European Remelt Market With 6 Tonne Var Furnace at Cézus.

12-10-2012 at 12:35:57

“Peter 12-8-2012 at 08:46:16
@ Lars was remarkably prescient”

Lets see if I’m as good a psychic as Lars was. I’m having a vision:
A Sun reporter and photog are on a helicopter heading for Ugine. They plan to stake out the town looking for suspicious babies… no wait … they’ve brought a suitable baby with them … borrowed from a fellow worker … no, no…

I see now that they put on green and purple hoodies and snatched a baby from a pram on the street … it’s a two-for-one-story – nuclear scandal for today and abducted, precious baby for later … they’re posing the baby now outside the Cezus gates … now at Martinet … they’re transmitting pics & story back to office. Quick, watch web site. :) :) :) <<< Casual, humourless readers, those mean it's a joke. Don't anyone at The Sun get all upset and go suiciding and blaming me.

12-10-2012 at 13:12:09

This site is now my first stop every day as I switch on computer. Keep up the good work.

Just wondered about a statement I have read in many places as quoted by WBM and wonder if it has been commented on here and I missed it. Here goes

In his first interview since the murder, former RAF pilot William Martin recalled the moments he found a British family gunned down in their BMW, a young girl “stumbling” around outside it and a French cyclist dead nearby.

At first he thought there had been a road accident. But William, 53, added: “There were these things that didn’t quite make sense.

“The cyclist’s bike wasn’t by him and he wasn’t grazed — things didn’t quite work.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4537634/.html#ixzz2EeMQboSW

The fact that we have been told that the cyclist was shot 7 times, overkill, yet the statment says he hadnt been grazed seems totally bizarre. Am I missing the point somehow.

12-10-2012 at 13:37:03

@NR

The elephants sent Roger Ailes to Petreaus, the donkeys sent Paula Broadwell. Of course the general has been called Betray us. Who has the last laugh?

Murdoch already has Hillary Clinton in his pocket book. It’s not domestic issues of interest to Murdoch, his great conern is the welfare of the state of Israel. In the new media, he sends some timely tweets on daily politics.

Reminds me of the wealthy and powerful Henry Ford awarded $0.06 in a libel suit against the Chicago tribune in 1919.

12-10-2012 at 14:44:41

@Marilyn

Houses owned by Mollier family:
The photo in the video of SM’s home was very familiar as I searched for it near Ugine city center. The address and location is 55 av du Docteur Chavent 73400 Ugine, France.

SM’s mother Suzanne could be a Mollier-Carroz and found at this address in Ugine
76 Avenue des Charmettes, 73400 Ugine, France.

I found the location where the video was taken of the two cyclists!! Route D1508 near crossing D182 between Lac du Annecy and Ugine (7km) at quarry Carriere de Marlens.

12-10-2012 at 14:52:15

I have just read that second-hand zirconium previously used in nuclear facilities elsewhere is recycled at Ugine . . !!!!!
Don’t like the sound of that one bit!
Sorry do not have link, my internet drops in and out all the time.

12-10-2012 at 15:51:15

Environmental Issue at Cézus/Areva plant in Ugine??

Pajaro car crash … an earlier comment of mine now that Peter brought the environment issue into the game. Too bad the ages do not match, but

How do you have knowledge of his name? If it’s indeed theIngénieur environnement, Areva NC
Frédéric Brun.

Now I understand why Cézus also supplies titanium alloy for the consumer markt – see also Ugitech and TIMET Savoie S.A. located in Ugine on the Cézus industrial complex. Early on there was an attempt to link Sylvain Mollier to Ugitech instead of Cézus/Areva. TIMET has some litigation issues in the US and has been sold to Precision Castparts last month.

12-10-2012 at 15:52:31

I have just updated the following on my site. You may not read it there, so I am copying and pasting it here.

UPDATE : MONDAY DECEMBER, 10, 2012:

No connection between the Al-Hilli killings and that of Xavier Baligant.

The shooting of Iraqi-born Saad Al-Hilli, 50, his wife Iqbal, 47, and her mother Suhalia Iqbal, 74, and that of Frenchman Sylvain Mollier, 45, is being regarded by the French investigators as unprecedented for France.

They say that the Claygate-based family’s cold-blooded murder on Wednesday, September 5, and the fatal July 19, 2011 shooting of Belgian Xavier Baligant, 29, were carried out by different killers.

The French gendarmes on the case are certain that Mr. Baligant was shot down in carjacking that went very wrong, and that his killer, or perhaps his killers, as motorway carjacking is usually carried out by a team of two or more, will only be found should they carry out a similar fatal carjacking which would lead to their immediate on-the-spot arrest.

Xavier Baligant, divorced, was driving home to the town of Pont-à-Celles in Belgium after a camping holiday in the Ardèche department of the French region of Rhône-Alpes. (France is divided into regions and each region into departments which in turn are divided into communes.)

On the rear seat of Mr. Baligant’s car were seated his two children, aged seven and five.

The three still had over 300 km (186 miles) to drive and once they were on the A31 toll road the two children fell asleep on the rear seat.

When Mr. Baligant was nearing the town of Colombey-les-Belles beyond which the motorway was free, he pulled up in the Malvaux rest area.

It was going on for two in the morning and the rest area which consisted of just a public convenience and a phone booth was quiet.

Traffic moving in the other direction had another rest area, that of Faverosse, across the motorway.
Twenty-four trucks were parked in the two rest areas, their drivers, asleep in their berths.

At around 2 a.m. an employee of the motorway operating company APRR – Autoroutes Paris-Rhin-Rhône – patrolling the motorway heard shots.

He thought they came from the direction of the Malvaux and Faverosse rest areas and immediately drove in that direction.

He found the lifeless body of a man lying in front of the toilet in the Malvaux rest area. He had been shot to death.

On the rear seat of a car parked nearby two small children lay asleep. They would later tell the investigators that their dad had told them that he was pulling up to go to the toilet but that they must stay in the car and sleep.

With the arrival of the APRR man some of the truck drivers were awakened by the patrol car’s flashing light and came over to see what was going on. The others had to be awakened later by gendarmes.

Not one of the 24 had heard shots: the tests on the hands of all for gun powder residue were negative.

Mr. Baligant had been shot four times. Three shots were aimed at his chest. The fourth, fired from above him, in other words he was on the ground, had hit him in the chin, traveled through his head and had exited through the top of the skull. The autopsy would show that the first of the three chest shots had been the fatal one. The final shot told the police that the killers or killers wanted to make certain that Mr. Baligant was dead and unable to talk.

Today the investigators believe that another vehicle had pulled up in the rest area at the same time as Mr. Baligant and an attempted carjacking had resulted.

When Mr. Baligant had refused to hand over the keys of his car, the carjacker had shot him dead. He had injuries to his hands which meant that there had been some degree of physical violence before the carjacker had started shooting.

Then, after having shot Mr. Baligant and getting to his victim’s car and seeing that there were two sleeping children on the rear seat, the killer had raced off in his own car, probably one that was old and in poor condition – and stolen – and which he had planned to abandon.

Or, if there were two or more carjackers, and there had not been two children in Mr. Baligant’s car, one would have driven off in Mr. Baligant’s car. The latter had left the keys in the ignition.

In that month of July there had been several carjackings in car parks in Paris’s more upper-class arrondissements. The modus operandi was always the same: the carjacker would threaten the car owner with a firearm, take the keys of his car and his credit card and having obtained the pin code and having withdrawn a large amount of money, would lock the car owner in the boot of his car to let him out only when out in the countryside.

The cars were not found. The police believe that they were ‘cleaned’ – registration plates were changed – and the cars were driven across the European Union’s open borders into Eastern Europe and especially to Albania where crime has reached endemic levels.

The French investigators also see no link between the firearms used in the Chevaline and the Malvaux-Faverosse shootings.

Despite that both types of firearms allegedly used had once been used by the Swiss army – a 7.55 calibre Schmidt-Rubin K31 at Malvaux-Faverosse and a 7.65 calibre Luger at Chevaline – the French investigators say that there is a glut of firearms in Europe because of the collapse of the Communist Bloc and the end of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia.

Automatic and semi-automatic handguns – pistols and revolvers – rifles, and even assault weapons like AR-15s and AK-47s can be bought at an affordable price if one knows where to look.

In 1997 alone during an armed rebellion in Albania caused when a financial pyramid scheme collapsed, there were an estimated 226,000 Kalashnikovs and another 25,000 machine guns circulating among the people. Because of that rebellion there was a mass emigration of Albanians into Italy, Greece, Switzerland and Germany, and some of those weapons left Albania as well.

The French investigators therefore give little credence to the belief that the killer of the Al-Hillis and of Mr. Mollier was a local gun collector who had decided it was time to see if his old Luger could still a job correctly.

There had been reports that the gendarmes were studying CCTV footage of the A31 toll road and the various rest areas.

At the entrance of the Malvaux rest area there was a camera which recorded at a 360° angle. The scene of the shooting was 150 meters (492 ft.) from that camera.

There were also other cameras filming on the A31 and at the nearest toll gates.

However, the killer or killers could have arrived on any of the numerous small adjoining roads.

As a trucker told journalists there is a lot of illegal activity on those roads and in that border region. He said that when a trucker sees a motorist hand a bag to another motorist he “looks the other way”.

The APRR guy, who has not been identified, but lives in the region’s town of Bicqueley (fewer than 900 inhabitants), needed post-traumatic stress counselling.

APRR employs 3,870 people who are responsible for approximately 2,300 kms (1,430 miles) of motorways and its cameras film on average 23,400 vehicles daily.

Their cameras transmit its footage ‘live’ to the Ops Room (Operational Room) of the motorway police (C.R.S. 30) in the town of Chaumont.

The cameras are to monitor the flow of traffic, speeding and other violations of the law – thefts, hold-ups, aggression, drug dealing – and well … murder.

APRR patrol men also visit a rest area every four hours when cleaners also clean the parking area, the toilets and the phone booth.

The question is: how come that after 18 months the APRR’s cameras have not yet ‘talked’?

This we do not know, but in the August 1997 death of Princess Diana and her lover Mr. Dodi Al-Fayed, the story was that CCTV footage of the road Ritz Hotel acting security chief, Henri Paul, had taken that night, as well as the CCTV footage at the entrance and exit and in the Alma tunnel itself where Paul had smashed the couple’s Mercedes into a supporting pillar, would reveal what had gone on that night.

A-ha!

There were no cameras on that road and no cameras aimed at the entrance or exit of the tunnel or inside it.

There was one camera. This was a camera on Place de l’Alma at the exit of the tunnel, but it was switched off.

Why was that camera switched off?

The spy cameras on the streets of France’s cities, towns and villages are controlled by a special section of the police force – the Direction de l’Ordre Public et de la Circulation (DOPC). In a large city like Paris the DOPC has several Ops Rooms, each watching a particular area of the city. The men in the Ops Room of the Place de l’Alma area stop work at 11 p.m. and then the cameras are switched off.

Maybe the APRR’s cameras on the Malvaux rest area had been switched off.

It was 2 a.m. anyway and the only activity on rest areas at that time of the night happens in the dreams or nightmares of truckers.

12-10-2012 at 16:57:01

@ Oui 12-10-2012 at 13:37:03

Good story about Henry Ford. I hadn’t heard that one. I recall he and Thomas Edison and their families went on picnics together and maybe tent camping by the roadside too.

12-10-2012 at 17:12:15

@Juno

Thanks for looking in first thing every morning. Not bored yet?

We did discuss “The cyclist’s bike wasn’t by him and he wasn’t grazed — things didn’t quite work.” There was a man shot 7 times but Brett Martin noticed that his skin wasn’t grazed.Maybe he took SM’s shoes off and looked under his feet!

@Oui

Thanks for the links. Those Mollier houses are certainly not HLMs which are blocks of flat.

I still think the cyclist with the earning in that video is Sylvain Mollier.

@NR

Do you know the one about the British Press Lord who would not review the books of Ian Fleming or the James Bond films in his papers because Ian Fleming had gone off with his wife?

12-10-2012 at 18:20:47

@ Marilyn regarding

“They say that the Claygate-based family’s cold-blooded murder on Wednesday, September 5, and the fatal July 19, 2011 shooting of Belgian Xavier Baligant, 29, were carried out by different killers.”

I knew it!

“He did not kill Xavier Baligant.” 17/11/12, 0:50

12-10-2012 at 18:45:56

@Marilyn
HLMs can well be private, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisme_d'habitations_%C3%A0_loyer_mod%C3%A9r%C3%A9_(France)
Publicly owned HLM’s in Ugine are listed here http://www.ugine.com/fr/ophlm-patrimoine.htm “Maison Mollier”, 380 Av Ernest Perrier de la Bathie, is not part of this list

12-10-2012 at 18:47:26

@ Marilyn regarding the Ian Fleming anecdote:

Never heard of it.

But I ask myself what Fleming did to avenge it.

Did he just not sleep with the press czar’s wife cause the guy was not running reviews on his books?

:)

12-10-2012 at 19:03:37

I pointed to the wrong house. Maison mollier, No 380, is on the right side of the road, http://goo.gl/maps/U8tEV It’s the address of a guy who occurs on the Solidarite and Progres list of supporters and runs a second hand shop

12-10-2012 at 19:40:33

@Marilyn
Esmund Harmsworth may have had the Daily Mail, but his wife left him for Ian Fleming because she was looking for a daily male.

12-10-2012 at 19:42:41

La-ha-hars!

Why is it essential that no photo of Sylvain Mollier surfaces?

@ Geroge:

1.) Is it George or really “Geroge”?

2.) You are Swedish?

12-10-2012 at 19:49:17

@ Eugene:

Now *you* start being funny!

I don’t know if there’s an expression in English for it, so only Peter might understand me when I’m saying:

“35 € in die Kalauerkasse!”

Alex

12-10-2012 at 20:28:58

@Eugene and @Alexander and @Geroge

re: Harmsworth.

Good one that,Eugene. I am sure no one thought of it at the time.

Kalauerkasse, Alex?

Maybe Geroge a.k.a. George, like Lars, has just 4 fingers on each hand. Or maybe he has 6 fingers on each hand.

12-10-2012 at 20:30:23

Despite that both types of firearms allegedly used had once been used by the Swiss army – a 7.55 calibre Schmidt-Rubin K31 at Malvaux-Faverosse and a 7.65 calibre Luger at Chevaline – the French investigators say that there is a glut of firearms in Europe because of the collapse of the Communist Bloc and the end of the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia.
Automatic and semi-automatic handguns – pistols and revolvers – rifles, and even assault weapons like AR-15s and AK-47s can be bought at an affordable price if one knows where to look.

Can somebody please enlighten me on the logical structure of the french prosecutors’ arguments there? I am genuinely struggling to comprehend their line of reasoning: Owing to the collapse of the former Soviet Bloc and the end of the Yugoslav civil war, there are a lot of high-powered Ex-Soviet-Bloc weapons on the market, for an affordable price. Thus, the fact that XBM *wasn’t* shot with one of these, but with a collectible 1930s-vintage Swiss Army weapon, conclusively proves that his murder has nothing to do with another murder case, in which the victims were also shot with a collectible Swiss Army weapon, rather than a more modern Soviet-Bloc-type of weapon.”

As I have said, I have some trouble with that argument.

12-10-2012 at 20:33:01

@Marilyn Z.

Defying all logic: an Albanian killer …

“Automatic and semi-automatic handguns – pistols and revolvers – rifles, and even assault weapons like AR-15s and AK-47s can be bought at an affordable price if one knows where to look.

In 1997 alone during an armed rebellion in Albania caused when a financial pyramid scheme collapsed, there were an estimated 226,000 Kalashnikovs and another 25,000 machine guns circulating among the people. Because of that rebellion there was a mass emigration of Albanians into Italy, Greece, Switzerland and Germany, and some of those weapons left Albania as well.”

First the British media spread fantasy of the Czech machinegun used in the Annecy massacre. Now am I to believe with such a volume Kalashnikovs, etc. an Albanian would look for and purchase an antiquated collector’s item like a Luger P06 to massacre the Al-Hillis and SM?

It’s more smoke and mirrors to “proof” for 99% certainty SM was collateral damage, don’t look here in the (Haute) Savoie.

12-10-2012 at 22:09:59

@Peter
Don’t you worry. I’m also in a quandary about this extremely intricate statement and its geo-political considerations. To the extent that I rushed to our DVD library, picked the Pink Panther part 1 and watched the whole movie in fast forward, just to get in the mood. It was still clearer than the point made by EM.
What I also find really cute about his patronizing comments is when he advises the laymen we all are that, considering our limited means, we’d better “know where to look” if we want to get a bargain on an assault rifle. So nice. Does this mean Amazon is not the best deal for such products?

12-10-2012 at 22:31:43

@Peter and @Oui and @Eugene

1. Nowhere in my update did I say that I was quoting Prosecutor Eric Maillaud’s words.

2. Nowhere in my update did I say the killer was Albanian.

3. You must watch the Pink Panther in fast backwards and preferably in Albanian. If you do you will see the killer in the mirror in the seventh take. He’s the one sticking out his tongue and giving a Bronx salute.

12-10-2012 at 22:57:41

@ Oui 12-10-2012 at 20:33:01
“@Marilyn Z. Defying all logic: an Albanian killer …”

We must look for the Albanian Albino Dwarf, wearing a hoodie.

@ all
Good for the Esmund Harmsworth / Ian Fleming stories / jokes. I’d not heard of that.

12-10-2012 at 22:58:32

Oops — I’ve just turned into a Serial Killer. So I’m flying off to Albania for a night of fun there.

12-10-2012 at 23:14:50

@ Marylin
I was just thinking this movie script is looking more like “Memento” meets “Amores Perros” every day. The opening scene is a funeral with Will Ferrel singing ‘Dust in the Wind’ and it ends jut before we find out whose funeral it was.

12-10-2012 at 23:17:09

@Marilyn Z.

Be careful out at night, the panther might be on the prowl … leave your jewels in Paris!
International gang member of Pink Panther arrested in Montenegro

12-10-2012 at 23:18:13

@ Marilyn regarding Kalauerkasse:

“Kalauer” = a joke coming from the city of Calau, Thuringia = un jeu de mot = a joke based on the close similarity between two words

the Kalauerkasse = if you make a really bad one, the one that’s so bad it’s actually good you have to pay a deposit into the cash register (well, imagined, no one ever really paid)

35 € is relatively high = relatively bad (“mail”/”male”) = relatively good

Usually they work only in one language.

Here’s a bad one, the kind of bad one which stays bad:

Pole to teacher “I want to polish my English.”

Teacher: “Your English is Polish[ed] enough.”

My most favourite (only in German):

“Warum hat der Weihnachtsmann seine Schlittentiere abgeschafft?”

“Weil sie sich nicht mehr ren-tiert haben.”

12-10-2012 at 23:20:22

@ J_Cave:

Will Ferrell…played in neither of the two movies?!

Alex

12-11-2012 at 01:43:05

@alexander

Title uses soundtrack from ‘Old School’ in my imaginings only . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQEpyfH_Xxg

12-11-2012 at 09:12:19

Morning everyone.

I had a good night of killing in Tirana. The place was pretty dead when I arrived and even deader when I left. They now call me the Piranha of Tirana.

@Alex

I am going to pass the Polish joke on. As for the other it is something about Father Cmas no longer using reindeers? Or am I very far off the mark.

@Alex and @JCave

May I ask? Who is Will Ferrel? The last time I went to the cinema was when Charlie Chaplin’s first film came out. I laughed so much then that I’ve never been back to the cinema being too scared I may crack my spine.

12-11-2012 at 09:14:42

Working from a link provided by straw44berry 10 Dec, 2012 – 3:51 pm over at Craig Murray, I found this at http://www.sipa.com/en

by searching “al Hilli” — there are 168 thumbnails and on page 2 near the bottom are what may be new aerial shots of the BMW.

These are credited to DOUG SEEBURG/THE SUN/SIPA. Some look identical to the Hoskins ones we’ve seen, but a few are from a slightly different angle, and may resolve questions about sun reflections. Maybe two photogs shared the helicopter?

There’s one I haven’t seen before, that’s from directly overhead:

http://www.sipa.com/en/asset/content/zoomOnly/1/id/16383953

I could only get large, lo-res thumbnails with SIPA’s watermark, but someone maybe can do better.

There is another BMW pic I haven’t seen: passenger side on flatbed lorry square-on view.

http://www.sipa.com//thumbnails6/00000001972/00

12-11-2012 at 09:29:12

@NR

Thanks for the photo links.

By the way, the Harmsworth banning Ian Fleming wasn’t a joke. It really happened.

12-11-2012 at 09:45:54

Sorry, link above didn’t work:
There is another BMW pic I haven’t seen: passenger side on flatbed lorry square-on view.
http://www.sipa.com/en/asset/content/zoomOnly/1/id/16384789

12-11-2012 at 10:42:46

@ Marilyn
“@NR Thanks for the photo links. By the way, the Harmsworth banning Ian Fleming wasn’t a joke. It really happened.”

I meant the joke Eugene made Male / Mail
I can’t make out Alex’s German play on words either.

12-11-2012 at 11:33:42

News on the Luger Magazine side. I wonder if anybody knew of this:
“Luger pistols could be fitted with extended capacity “snail” magazines, (holding up to 36 rounds) and mostly made by a third party company: Schmeisser. Given that 25 accurate shots were fired in about thirty seconds, according to ear-witnesses, I’d expect that one of these was used. 25 rounds represents, not a full snail magazine, but a single box of commercial ammunition. (Swiss government ammunition was issued in boxes of 24: enough for three factory-standard 8-round Luger clips.)”
href=http://scotlandyard.blogspot.de/2012/12/al-hilli-medawar-theory.html

the commentar goes for the interesting hint to trace after this seldomly used magazine type rather than for the pistol itself.

“In this case, I think the extended magazine is going to prove more distinctive, and is probably more worth the bother of trying to trace it, than the gun. It’s the sort of accessory that collectors go for and dealers remember. The pistol might have been a locally-pilfered Swiss government weapon, but not the magazine.”

12-11-2012 at 11:44:09

What I find additionally interesting is, that the standard boxes for ammunition hold 24 pieces. Means that maybe Mr. X had only access to a single box and a couple of spare bullets some of which he might have used for training. Maybe he didn´t want to purchase more, because if he is a local he would have left a trace. So he had to deal with what he´d got.

12-11-2012 at 12:19:43

@ RiffRaff

We have covered this before. *If* the shooter did in fact use one of these drum magazines (called TM 08), the magazine would be much rarer and almost as expensive as the gun. It certainly would be easier to trace – although € 1200 will buy a fully-functional modern replica of these magazines.

The police might be able to determine whether or not one of these drum magazines was used from markings left on the spent cartridge cases – and from Zainab’s wounds. If she was battered with one of those magazines, the injury patterns would be totally different than those resulting from being pistol-whipped with a standard magazine. (In that case, we would also have to forget the idea that the police found a wooden magazine bottom at the scene of the crime, which some have suggested allowed them to identify the type of pistol used.)

However, I do not find the other arguments particularly convincing. Although it is true that the Swiss Army issued its 7.65 Para. ammunition in packs of 24, the last of these packs were produced in 1951. I very much doubt that the killer would have trusted 1951-or-earlier-issue ammunition to work flawlessly. Modern-day ammunition in this calibre (produced by Fiocchi and Privi Partizan) is sold in packs of 50 as the smallest pack size, not 25.

The idea that the killer may have possessed an ultra-rare drum magazine for a Luger-type pistol, but relied on a “locally-pilfered Swiss government weapon” for the gun itself is, quite frankly, absurd.

12-11-2012 at 12:44:03

@RiffRaff and @Peter

RiffRaff, I find your comment re a Luger interesting. Thanks for this. I know more about bars of KitKat chocolate, so whatever a commentator writes here is welcome. Even if one of you will tell me that Michael Jackson is not dead and he’s the shooter.

I think, and this is what I’ve been thinking all along, that the shooter ran out of ammo because he had a sufficient quantity for what he had gone there to do and a carload of women and children — well, that rather knocked his socks off.

So far what we’ve mentioned here in comments are all speculation and none can really be described as ‘absurd’ Peter.

Let us read what our commentators think and suggest and our overall picture of this crime will be enhanced.

12-11-2012 at 12:54:30

By the way, I recommend visiting Albania. I loved it there and am going back next summer. The Albanian Alps are gorgeous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Albania
nobody (except perhaps the odd brown bear or pack of wolves) gives you any hassle if you ride your MTB or enduro through the mountains, the food is great and can be enjoyed in the privacy of your own bunker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania
Plus, the hospitality of the people is deservedly legendary and comprises vodka sold in bottles shaped like an AK47. What more could one wish for?

12-11-2012 at 12:55:43

Off Topic, but let me put it here quick, if something bad happens to me. I have had the most brilliant idea ever; Nobel Prize worthy, if I say so myself.

On December 20th, the whole world celebrates Mayan Doomsday’s Eve. Everyone participates, but it’s especially important for those who believe in Christmas and won’t get one if the Mayan’s are proven correct.

All exchange presents, just in case, then if nothing happens by the end of the 21st, they’ll rush out to buy extra Christmas presents ’cause they were spared.

By Christmas day, stores and warehouses are completely empty, and factories work through 2013 replenishing stuff. World economies prosper and everyone has jobs and money.

Afterward, we can make it an annual tradition by having our most respected scientists say they found an error in the calculation and the world will really end on 21 December 2013. And so on, year after year.

12-11-2012 at 13:12:32

@Peter

AK47 vodka

Please, Peter, next summer buy me one of those AK47-shaped bottles of vodka. I would halt dinner conversation like the real thing.

12-11-2012 at 13:16:16

@NR

Dec 20.

You forgot something, NR.

Tomorrow – 12.12.12 – is another possible end of the world.

I, however, will cross my fingers and hope that I’m going to be the one who will win the French Loto’s 12 million Euro tomorrow at 8 p.m.

12-11-2012 at 13:30:43

@ Marilyn

Just the thing for Christmas …
http://www.urban-drinks.de/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=338
In Albania, I have only seen the bottle being sold, not this entire set.

12-11-2012 at 13:56:12

Hi Marilyn and all,
Just a few thoughts as I am going along.
Did the decoraters who noted the Al Hilli Car passing note the Didierjohn car passing, or BM. Could they all have been in car park when the Al Hillis arrived.
When the altercation took place (for whatever reason, I dont know), one of the Al Hilli woman put emergency call through on a satellite phone which I am convinced a man like Saad would have working in the industry. Anyone I know working in computer or satellite industry is big on having the latest gagetry, and Saad being a man who travels to France, Spain, Iraq and who knows where else would need to have contact with business, especially being dependent on contract work.
The emergency call having been made the assailants attempting to finish the job heard distant sirens, put through their own emergency call and moved down hill, knowing they could make it no further.
The other cars and bikes may (in my opinion) also have been involved and scattered in different directions, taking gun(s) etc and whatever else they had come for with them.
This is just a view I have looking at the overall picture.
This was one crowded car park.
Were we ever sure that the marks seen were blood stains or marks left by police.
I do not think this was an extraction, too complicated. A boating accident on the lake would have been so easy to stage.
I also do not believe Zainab was as injured as stated, as you say, she was back in England an in foster care very rapidly.
I believe this family knew they were in danger in their day to day lives, not necessarily on that specific day, and had trained the children to run and hide quietly when told, as children are taught during war time. One child hiding under mothers skirts, whilst other hiding in bushes but being heard or seen.
Will we ever really know.

12-11-2012 at 14:09:47

@Peter
don´t get me wrong: I did not go for this scenario as the most likely, but I just played with the idea why the witnesses hearing the shootings didn´t report that there were at least two interruptions in the shots fired (caused by the magazine changes, which nobody could do so quickly that it sounds like uninterupted especially bearing in mind that the target and Mr.X. were moving around the place), hence leading to the assumption that the pistol used can fire 25 rounds in a row. Now, what if Mr.X -lets say – found the stuff in the attic: old luger, schmeisser magazine, ammunition. He picked the stuff, fired a few shots to assure himself that ammo still working and off he went.

Moreover living in a heavily bombarded area during WWII with regular findings of old ammo, I don´t think that an old ammo, kept dry, couldn´t work fine after 60 years.

12-11-2012 at 14:11:05

@Peter

Shot of AK47? I have heard of a shot of whiskey …
Cowboy Poetry – Rye Whiskey

12-11-2012 at 14:21:03

@Lars
Where are you? Still alive? I really hope so … Anybody here who knows that he´s well?

12-11-2012 at 15:25:58

@ Riff Raff re: extended magazine- Even if the extended magazine was available to the killer, he wouldn’t have wanted to use it. There is a reason that the military moved away from the magazines as quickly as a suitable replacement was found. I spoke with an avid collector and gunsmith about this early on, and it seems that they had a tendency to jam with regularity. You then add on top of that that spare parts are not likely to be available and it WILL need replacement parts after this many years.

I agre with you that the recollection of the witnesses requires additional inquiry, but keep in mind that when the witnesses heard the shots they were doing their daily tasks and not listening for a murder. When they later are asked to recall what they heard, that recollection is very often skewed by the person asking them the questions. Eye witness (or I guess ear witness) testimony is very unreliable to say the least even though prosecutors like to rely on it in presenting their case.

12-11-2012 at 15:38:56

@rva524
mag changes even if done qucikly leave a significant gap that should be memorable if specifically asked for that. I am wondering if EM did ask.

12-11-2012 at 15:40:18

link has gone:
href=”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yfYsO0Q7_M”

12-11-2012 at 15:44:10

@ RiffRaff 12-11-2012 at 14:09:47
“@Peter, don´t get me wrong: I did not go for this scenario as the most likely, but I just played with the idea why the witnesses hearing the shootings didn´t report that there were at least two interruptions in the shots fired (caused by the magazine changes, which nobody could do so quickly that it sounds like uninterupted especially…”

The witnesses said 30 sec of shots, but I never heard if it was continuous, like full automatic (for that, 25 shots in 30 sec is to long) or spaced out and how far apart. 30 sec for 25 shots is a long time, over a second per shot if they were evenly spaced, which they could not be from what we know. Typically if it’s a non-pro shooting, it goes bang….pause, bang.bang.bang. Or they pause after the first shot then empty the clip.
So in 30 sec there is time for some groups of quick shots, pauses, change magazines, and so on.

I doubt the 30 sec time estimates, people are very poor estimating time for something like that. If it was hunting country, they wouldn’t even pay attention to the first 2-3 shots.

@ Marilyn “You forgot something, NR.
Tomorrow – 12.12.12 – is another possible end of the world.”

Our radio just now said that. I did not know. Now I’m in a panic. I don’t even have time to write out a bucket list. Maybe I can copy someone else’s and pretend it’s mine.

12-11-2012 at 16:29:18

@NR: shot sequence
Regarding the hunting shots afaik there are fired only single shots, no sequence whatsoever. Usually hunting rifles only have one or two shots. So its pretty unusual from the first sequence to hear such a sequence at all. 25 shots even if not evenly spaced are imho pretty much be it in 30, 40 sec or even more. Look at the video i posted: this man shoots quickly but in the same target, not running, still his hand gets slower/hurts. I agree, that there could be time for mag changes, which by the way would have taken even longer if the mags are not dropped to the ground but tucked away, but still the time window was very small since BM was coming up the hill. It all seems pretty inconsistent to me, well unless Mr.X and some of the immediate wittnesses are in fact the same person. that would strech the time frame quite a bit.
@Marilyn: Do we have an official confirmation that a luger was used by now? I haven´t heard of that.

12-11-2012 at 18:50:28

It is already 12/12/12 in Australia btw

12-11-2012 at 19:34:56

@J Cave

12.12.12 in Oz.

So it is. The French believe such a date brings very very good luck.

@RiffRaff

No, there has been no confirmation that a Luger was used.

@NR and @RVA524

Isn’t there an echo in a forest?

If so, would the gun shots not have echoed across the trees?

And also: if the witnesses had spoken of continuous firing, but a reload would have meant a sec or two of silence, could there not have been two shooters?

@Oui

Nice country and western.

@Juno

We were not told how many mobiles (cell phones) were on that lay-by that day.

@All

NR asked where Lars was. Lars is working in his local fish and chip shop until after the festive season. He does the frying. This is normally called going from the fat into the fire.

12-11-2012 at 20:48:55

@all

Birds of a feather.
Don’t they flock together, or fly, ride the trade-winds? Maybe was EM’s former statement correct somehow, that “the key to these killings was in the UK”. In a sneaky way.
There are times when I wonder whether I haven’t been completely off-track in this case. Unanswered questions often call for the simplest rationale. Try again.
Why was there so much “collateral damage”? Sure, could be the compulsion of a mass-killer, shooting anyone in sight. Could be the deranged mind of a psychopath targeting either bikers or foreign visitors. But chances are, unless the killer was someone his collateral victims already knew, that he simply had to take them out to protect his flight. Very unlikely if the “collateral” was SM (even a cycling champion would find it difficult to chase a 4×4 or a motorbike). But assuming the SAH party was the “collateral”, it’s debatable, depends on what vehicle the killer was using. If a car or motorbike, there was an obvious chance of an always risky high-speed chase. Now let’s assume he was only riding a bike, then he had no choice. He could possibly first try to blow out a tire of the BMW with his gun, but that might not be enough. Upscale tires today can run a few miles even being flat. Had to get rid at once of all adults capable of driving the BMW, kids not being a serious issue. Not even likely to provide a consistent testimony, if adequately injured or otherwise blinded to the scene.
Why did we never see a single picture of SM? Sure, could have been his family’s quest for privacy, but still, people more often find some tearful solace in somehow sharing their bereavement. Could it be something unusual about his physical features that made it embarrassing? Very unlikely, we would have known by now, one way or the other. Could it be to keep the killer in the dark? What of? Even if a total “nutter”, he must have known what his victim looked like. Now if they actually knew each other, it’d make sense. It’d prevent others -people who knew them both- from mentioning such link. And by the way, it’s consistent with the fact that rescue teams apparently found SM’s body without anything to identify him right away (ID papers, credit cards, cellphone), which doesn’t ring quite right for a middle-class fortysomething. Someone must have had a clear motive to try and gain some little precious time and pick whatever up. Or just a momentary lapse of reason.
For obvious reasons, we’ve focused a lot of attention on the famous Ugine cycling club and its members. But then, there are plenty others in the area. Not to mention that even a dedicated cyclist can skip membership to any and still practice regularly.
In that respect, since Annecy hosts a number of amateur cycling contests, it may be useful to screen former competitors who could be involved in this story. Say, 2011 cycling or triathlon specials, and to also include partners of various players, since obviously females nowadays engage in sporting events just as much as males. Listings should be easily available, that’s what the web is for. In this case it’s a pull-down menu.
Now Marilyn once aptly observed that more and more spouses tend to add their partner’s last name to their own. She even mentioned that quite a few surnames are common in both France and the UK. Same for many first names, if not for the occasional diacritic. She may have shot right in the bullseye. I’m getting good at not naming names by now.
Desperate housewives.
The clue we’re looking for in this case should then be local. So what’s Lake Annecy known for? Tourism. Magnificent area. What’s the easiest way to take advantage of this if you’re a local? Renting rooms as a B&B for instance. Doesn’t have to be right by the lake, can also be a few miles away, in say the quaint nearby village of Thusy for instance. Here again, the Internet certainly offers a good search tool. Page 1 should suffice.
Can we then find out if any local (or former local) female bearing a familiar name does a) rent rooms there b) regularly enroll in local cycling events, and thus be expected to be acquainted with other good-looking cyclists, including members of clubs she doesn’t belong to? And then possibly engage in some undisclosed relationship? Guess we can.
Crimes of passion.
Even in this day and age, many people can still be really jealous, and if they ever find out their partner has been cheating on them, may become quite violent. Happens all the time. Getting rid of their rival can easily become an obsession, but if they’re smart enough they’ll find a way to do so in a subtle way, and possibly manage to have their guilty partner endure double punishment by turning them into a silent accomplice. “You know I did it, but you can’t tell, cause if you do you’re in trouble yourself. I’ve suffered a lot, and now so shall you”. Partners in crime by intelligent design. I bet it sometimes works, if not always or forever. But that’s another story.
Do we know anybody involved who might have faced that situation, if only by being too often away from home for his job, who’d be clever enough to work out such a plot and fulfill it with the necessary self-control? Somebody fully trained to demanding circumstances? Possibly.
“There are more things in heaven and earth / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

12-11-2012 at 23:27:40

@ RiffRaff regarding Lars:

I think he’s fine.

@ RiffRaff regarding (sequence of) shots:

Last I heard, it’s unclear if witnesses (including cowherd Denis Janin and his wife) heard any shots at all.

When they tested with Brett Martin it became clear his story that he did not hear any shots at all might be true and in contrary shots fired at the murder scene were not heard by the witnesses in re-enactement.

The witnesses will have heard shots, but this might have been a hunting party.

In general, I read, testimony of the shooting witnesses is unclear and might not be taken into account.

@ Marilyn & NR:

It’s always complicated to translate a joke and sometimes a bit ridicolous to explain it.

Anyway, I’m not shy:

“Why did Santa Claus let go of his sleigh animals?”

“Because they were not reindeering on investment anymore.”

Will Ferrell: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002071/

“Step Brothers”, “Talladega Nights”, “The Producers” (Mel-Brooks-Remake)…most famous for working with Judd Apatow of the “Judd-Apatow-comedies” sub-genre fame

Alex

12-12-2012 at 00:22:22

@ Eugene (12-11-2012 at 20:48:55)

For once I think I understand a riddle!

Did the police carry out powder residue tests?

12-12-2012 at 09:05:35

12.12.12

I wish you all good luck today in whatever you undertake or do.

@Eugene

Thank you for your intelligent comment. I’m reading between the lines. What I like is that you do not promise further revelations and then you go chicken and take the chicken run.

@Bleb

The riddle is did the police carry out powder residue tests.

@Peter

Thank you for the vodka links. It is a great Cmas present for a man.

@Alexander

Thanks for joke explanation and Will Ferrell. I thought it might have been the name of someone’s ferret.

12-12-2012 at 10:36:55

@Marilyn Z.

Did you chase the gremlins away?

Brief comparison two cases Chevaline and Nancy (video)
Tuerie de Chevaline : des similitudes avec une autre affaire

12-12-2012 at 10:42:48

@Oui

I was the Gremlin. I must have been bitten or stung during the night and now, infected, I’m a Gremlin too. Or maybe I have just one Gremlin finger …

12-12-2012 at 11:20:27

@ Alexander Cartier @RiffRaff
On the gunshot witnesses. The was a shooting in the US, Portland, Oregon, at a crowded shopping mall. CNN interviewed many witnesses by phone. Wildly divergent stories as to the number of shots, ranging from 12 to dozens, which, taken literally, would be 24 or more. Different, inconsistent descriptions of the gunman too.

The last I heard it was a someone who worked there who’d been fired. Proves again there is no logic in these nutter shootings, if that’s what it was. He supposedly shot until the weapon – described by some as an large assault rifle – jammed, and then shot himself, presumably with another gun.

There’s a US TV comedy program, “Conan O’Brien”, that illustrates people will say anything to be part of a story. The do a person-in-the-street interview, asking passersby if they saw some fictional event, like The First Ladies’ Debate between Mrs. Obama and Mrs. Romney.

Obviously they’ve edited out honest responses, but what they show causes one to lose faith in any eyewitness. Average people quickly improvise and fabricate such fantastical descriptions that you are left convinced there must have been such an event and wish you had seen it too.

12-12-2012 at 19:33:45

New Jersey mom needs a flu-shot …
She took her late grandpa’s old rifle to the police for a $50 voucher.

StG Maschinen Pistole 44

12-12-2012 at 20:15:43

@Alex
Another contribution to the Kalauerkasse, since you seem to be keen on these “jeux de mots”:
Since, for fear the killer might go after him, he now says he never heard the shots, the cowherd Denis Janin is ruining his reputation: that makes him a coward.
€ 50 ?

12-12-2012 at 20:54:07

@NR re: BMW on flat-bed lorry
Video of BMW on transporter leaving crime scene. Look carefully and witness no flat tire! Tuerie de Chevaline (Haute Savoie)

12-12-2012 at 20:55:19

@All
BBC 5 radio live Chevaline murders
Interview Mark Williams-Thomas published Sep 10, 2012 who was at the crime scene at spoke with EM.
BBC Radio4 PM by criminologist Mark Williams-Thomas published Sep 13, 2012

12-12-2012 at 20:57:58

Deep hatred, failed busimess deal led to murder of the Flactif family

The wheels of justice grind slowly in France, very slowly. David Hotyat was found guilty of murdering the five members of the Flactif family on the 30th of June in 2006. He was sentenced to life with a minimum term of 22 years. Alexandra Lefèvre, Hotyat’s ex-girlfriend was sentenced to 10 years for her part in the murder.

12-12-2012 at 21:10:16

@Eugene – maybe: “what the cowardly cowherd heard” ?

12-12-2012 at 23:38:01

@ bleb 12-12-2012 at 21:10:16
“@Eugene – maybe: “what the cowardly cowherd heard” ?”

If he passed over the boundary to his pasture: “what the cowardly cowherd heard as he crossed the cowherdly line”? A roar or a purr?

12-13-2012 at 04:36:32

NR, it is not surprising that victims of a mass shooting don’t get the details quite right sometimes. If you’re running for your life, survival instinct kicks in. Fight or flight is not the time for details. And sometimes it’s hard to tell how many shots there were, if you’re close enough for your ears to ring, or with other people making noise in the chaos. The people closest to the action are probably not the ones talking to reporters. If you’re in shock, it’s hard to speak, let alone give interviews. Those people would been taken aside to fill out police reports. Sometimes they’re asked not to leave the scene for a while.

12-13-2012 at 05:39:26

@ Eugene:

$ 50 ?

:)

@ Oui:

On thread one, we discussed and I said there’s no flat tyre, already.

Came to me as a shock when in a recent newspaper coverage (don’t remember which one) they spoke of a flat tyre.

However I still don’ see it.

12-13-2012 at 06:21:37

@ A Non : That was my point. CNN interviewed, by phone, some witnesses before they’d talked to police, one of whom was standing next to the shooter. Another said “somebody” in a white Jason mask was in the mall 30 minutes earlier, frightening children, and someone else said they’d seen the shooter at the opposite end of the mall.

What with shock, confusion and the tendency of some to fabricate or embellish stories to put themselves near the action, the police, with the aid of video records will come to some consensus as to what really happened.

One thing influencing witnesses, in the US at least, is the probability of civil lawsuits – the mall provided inadequate security – and people are “scarred for life”. More scarred the nearer they were to the shootings.

12-13-2012 at 08:59:27

Watch your step … this is comment #4998 on topic across all 5 threads @Marilyn Z. Tomlins.

12-13-2012 at 10:06:57

From a comment I made at Craig Murray. As a courtesy, since this involves French cheese and a cow herder, I’ll copy it here.

@ James 12 Dec, 2012 – 11:57 pm – “Blue… Nada smoked. Anyway. SAH is a cheese smuggler. It is my view and I am sticking to it !”

You have solved it! A year ago SM had his lunch in his jacket pocket – some Raclette, viande de cheval and a baguette. Standing between ingots of zirconium and halfnium he fired his welding laser. At lunchtime he found the Racellet had quadrupled in size and volume and improved in taste.

It was like the dude at Raytheon who invented microwave ovens, noticing a melted candy bar in his pocket when he worked on magnetrons.

SM was meeting SAHs at Martinet to sample his new improved cheese and tempt them as investors.

When the cowherder with his cows came down the road they saw no harm in asking for his opinion of the new cheese and thinking him a simple man revealed the secret to its creation.

But the cowherd immediately saw the implications – it would greatly reduce demand for his milk. Drawing his grandpa’s trusty WWII Luger, which he carried to protect his cows from wild boars, he murdered the lot of them.

The secret services, knowing one or more of the dead were involved in nuclear matters, became involved, never suspecting the meeting involved cheese.

@ Blue… Nada smoked neither.

12-13-2012 at 10:11:12

@Oui

Is this number 5000?

12-13-2012 at 10:12:25

@NR

No, you are wrong. It was the cow who pulled the trigger.

12-13-2012 at 10:28:16

A great number! Will we have sufficient time beyond Friday Dec. 21, 2012 to enjoy the next 5,000 comments with you?

12-13-2012 at 11:09:32

Where is Lars? Gone digging, gone into hiding, gone off the rails?

12-13-2012 at 11:21:36

Speaking of viande de cheval: http://www.foodrepublic.com/2011/05/12/canadian-top-chef-horse-meat-scandal

On hiking, I saw this: “One important thing to know about hiking anywhere in Europe, it is not a mildly challenging stroll up a gentle incline, on a broad path with traction aids at every possibly dangerous spot, as is often the case in the US. The Europeans attack their hills, often running up paths only slightly less than perpendicular. Expect deep knee bends, few rest stops, and narrow, rocky trails where you will be sliding down mud paths on your heels one moment and face to face with wild rose-bushes full of stodgy bees the next moment.”

“The higher you get to the top, especially in summer, the friendlier the bees get, and while they are entirely non-aggressive, sitting passively wherever on you they drop until you brush them off, it can be a new experience for those not used to it.”

I recall a steep hike down the side of a mountain to a German hostel, cafe and bier stube. The had a jeep which brought zaftig fraus and really old men back up the trail. It was a disgrace for anyone else to use it, and I managed to make it back up with much puffing.

12-13-2012 at 11:41:44

@Peter

Lars was last seen trying to convince a French Gendarme that he can’t shoot straight.

12-13-2012 at 11:56:52

@Oui

re: 12.21.12

There is great interest on my site in what I’d written about Bugarach. The question on Google which brings visitors to the site is: ‘How to get to Bugarach’.

12-13-2012 at 15:48:48

@ Marilyn:

…only slightly topped by the ever-interesting question:

‘How to get to Bucharest’.

:)

12-14-2012 at 10:05:28

MI6 has been up to some no good. Makes me think. If I have a moment later today I will update.

12-14-2012 at 14:59:59
12-14-2012 at 15:32:14

@Josh

I am so terribly sorry but I accidentally deleted your comment. Could I ask you if you could please post it again. Thanks!

12-14-2012 at 15:34:02

@Oui

I’ve been otherwise engaged today, so I’ve not yet got down to MI6.

I have often been asked if I have any connection to Tomlinson the spy. The answer is ‘no’.

12-14-2012 at 19:08:35

Regarding the aerial pics of the Martinet crime scene. Watching the TV news coverage of today’s school shooting in the US there are multiple news helicopters hovering over the school providing hi-res video. Even a fixed-wing aircraft (Cessna or some such) flying below them.

At Martinet there’s still the question of why there were no aerial views available earlier in the day – at least right after sunrise? Over at Craig Murray we did find a few more pics, slightly different angles, other than the three commonly used. Apparently there were two photogs sharing the same helicopter, Hoskins and another one from The Sun UK.

I do not recall seeing aerial video. I don’t know the custom in Europe. Do the media have news helicopters on standby at all times for local news like in the US? Would the news helicopters need to come from a large city?

Why are there no pics from earlier in the day before the bodies were removed? Was there restricted air space, and if so, who would be authorized to do that? Of the few pics made public, it looks as if the helicopter made only one pass over Martinet. Did they do that unauthorized and were warned away?

12-14-2012 at 20:17:39

@NR

I have seen brief video from a helicopter flying at night and during the day above Route de La Combe d’Ire and parking Martinet.

@Massacre CT elementary school

Shooter is a 20 years-old man and is linked to the school. Gunman is deceased and there may be a second man involved. Massacre, shooting at convenience, one entire class targeted and killed, 27 dead including principal, a psychologist and teacher(s). Local person, anger, did not get away.

Compared to Martinet, because the location was so isolated, it was well planned and familiar with victims, did not want witnesses to survive, gunman made sure escape was possible. A premeditated murder, no dna traces, I still believe either a local issue of retaliation (SM) or an assassination of SAH & family. Killer X did not want to die or get caught.

12-14-2012 at 21:21:06

@NR and @Oui

Terrible about the shooting in the States.

No, here in France we do not have tv news networks with helicopters. When there is a really big crime then the police provide aerial shots (I feel odd using the word ‘shot’ but you will know what I mean) of the crime scene. Even earlier this year when we had the shooting at a Jewish school in Toulouse, journalists with tv cameras had to remain behind police lines which were set up at the bottom of a side street.

I think the aerial footage of the lay-by was police footage and given to the French News Agency (AFP) which then distributed it.

Of course the Police would have taken photos of the murder scene, but as the custom is, such photos are never released to the media.

Oui, you mention ‘premeditated murder’ and that Killer X ‘did not want to die or get caught’. So true. Compare the Chevaline massacre with today’s massacre in the States, and it is so clear that our ‘Killer X’ was hell-bent on getting away.

I think usually when someone goes on a killing spree out of anger, bitterness, hatred or revenge, that person’s mind is so twisted that his or her own death is part of the scenario. Therefore, Chevaline was not because a betrayed husband or lover wanted revenge, or was angry, or bitter. Neither was it for any other personal reason.

However, more about this tomorrow. I’ve had a busy day and I need to sit back now and listen to some music …

12-14-2012 at 22:47:56

Horrific Scool Shooting in Connecticut, 20 children dead, and 7 adults.

12-14-2012 at 22:56:21

Apparently a family drama in Connecticut

(The Atlantic) – The mother of shooter was a teacher at the school and was killed. Would be sad if all her pupils in class were shot dead with her. Her son is a 20 year-old, developmentally disabled. His older brother is held by police. A body found at a residence in the area is presumably a family member of the shooter (father or another brother).

Yogananda Street, Newtown, CT 06482

The shooter identified as Adam Lanza, 20 — is dead

A neighbour told CNN the son was a troubled person and the parents were recently divorced.

12-15-2012 at 05:21:19

Fun seeing the media making sausages, I mean, insta-news.

“Internet Identifies, Threatens Wrong Man as Newtown Shooter” [And his Facebook friends too.]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/12/newtown-shooter-facebook/?+gadgets,+cool,+lifestyle,+media

“CNN, the Huffington Post, Slate and other news organizations pointed to the Facebook page of one Ryan Lanza, who hails from Newtown and currently lives in New Jersey. “Ryan Lanza Facebook Page Shows Suggestive Details Of Apparent Newtown, Connecticut Shooting Suspect,” was Huffington Post’s original headline…”

The wrath of the Internet vigilantes extended to Facebook friends of the misidentified Lanza.

“Matt Bors… in Portland, Oregon, is Facebook friends with the misidentified Ryan Lanza. “I’m getting inundated with messages,” Bors says. He’s never met the proprietor of the page. But that hasn’t stopped random strangers from denouncing Bors as actual friends with the Newtown killer.”

“How could you be friend of [sic] such a monster?” Dani Ohana posted to Bors’ wall. “Please tell me you are being sarcastic. I didn’t know him,” Bors replied. “You are his friend on Facebook..” was the reply.”

12-15-2012 at 05:31:40

Apropos of misidentifying people, especially with the Internet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247797/Twin-portraits-Quebec-photographer-Francois-Brunelle-takes-pictures-look-alikes.html

In high school, a friend of mine had his picture taken with what was my doppleganger who he came across by accident. A virtual identical twin. Even my parents were convinced I’d mysteriously traveled to a foreign city with my friend.

In another interesting Internet case, I easily found three dopplegangers of the alleged suspect. One a virtual, if even better looking, identical twin, and two others who could easily pass for the suspect from across the street, especially in a hoodie.

12-15-2012 at 06:23:54

@ Marilyn : You’ve started something now. Will you be a hero to the businesses, or a villain to those objecting to clogged streets? One thing is that people coming to survive the Mayan Apocalypse will bring all their cash, gold, diamonds, silver and rubies with them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248459/French-village-Bugarach-said-place-people-survive-apocalypse-predicted-ancient-Mayan-calendar-December-21.html

12-15-2012 at 09:10:12

@NR

You commented : One thing is that people coming to survive the Mayan Apocalypse will bring all their cash, gold, diamonds, silver and rubies with them.

I’d not thought of that aspect of it. I suppose they will which means that the thieves, robbers and pickpockets will be very active.

Personally I think that the police are preparing for trouble and not only in the Bugarach region but also in other places. For example people will arrive in Paris in the days leading up to Friday and they would want to get down south to Bugarach which is not easy as there is no direct train.

12-15-2012 at 09:13:32

@Oui

re Newtown shooting.

A few years back when there was a heated debate over gun control in the States, someone said (I think it could have been Charlton Heston, the actor): ‘Guns do not kill people; people kill people’.

As you would know after all our comments and discussions it is very difficult buying a firearm in France, yet those who want one find one.

Remember, in a comment of mine I said that if one knows where to look they are easily obtainable.

12-15-2012 at 09:55:35

@ Eugene + Marilyn regarding Kalauerkasse:

50 € ?

“Kremlins – don’t feed them water after midnight!”

12-15-2012 at 10:01:01

@Alexander

The ones here chez moi are somewhat different: they demand champagne after midnight or they get nasty. And, Alex, not just any cheap bottle of bubbles. It must be Moet et Chandon.

12-15-2012 at 11:23:49

There is a long documentary on the Chevaline murders about to be broadcast on french TV.

http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2012/12/15/un-documentaire-de-52-minutes-en-tournage-sur-la-tuerie-de-chevaline

12-15-2012 at 11:34:30

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-15-2012 at 09:13:32 @Oui

Gun control in the US is wishful thinking. They say there are 270,000,000 weapons. A fingertip search of the whole country would not find them all.

Mexico has strict gun control, but it hasn’t prevented the cartels from arming themselves with enough weaponry, much smuggled from the US, to fight the army, and kill 60,000 people there.

If the US were able to confiscate weapons, the cartels would simply reverse the flow and all the weapons smuggled to Mexico would return, for a price, along with drugs. And the cartels would resupply themselves from the vast stockpiles of the former Soviet Union.

PS: For motives in the drug business, two days ago in New York a man from Los Angeles was executed outside his hotel. He was a money courier who had lost somebody’s money.

12-15-2012 at 13:29:06

@NR re: drugs money

Wasn’t this guy, he was already dead. How to solve ownership of $180,000?

Be careful the type of weapon you turn-in to police in gun buy-back event. This news item also took place in Connecticut, a state with the strictest gun laws.
Read my diary with updated news links to Newtown elementary school shooting.

@Marilyn Z.

Please not him, the ugliest proponent of the NRA and its lobbyist cronies elected to Congress doing His Master’s bidding.
Prof. Juan Cole has some excellent statistics by comparing the US “outlaw nation” to the UK colonial empire, now civilised?

12-15-2012 at 13:30:13

@ Marilyn regarding what Charlton Heston, the NRA’s president and famously present in Michael Moore’s “Bowling for Columbine”, said:

Detective Sledge Hammer on gun control:

“Guns don’t kill people – bullets do.”

:)

12-15-2012 at 13:50:21

La cougar et le légionnaire (TV1)
Alfred Cavanna, dit «Freddy», patron d’une boite de nuit près d’Annecy, a été tué le 5 avril 1997 à coup de carabine.

Did EM already solve this case or have you written about it and located the culprit. The documentary can only be viewed in France.

12-15-2012 at 14:25:50

@ Oui 12-15-2012 at 13:50:21

The Cavanna case has already been solved. Two Foreign Legionnaires did it.

http://www.lexpress.fr/informations/les-amants-la-grenouille-et-le-legionnaire_722205.html

12-15-2012 at 15:22:48

I know it’s totally off-topic but reading of Sandy Hook Elementary brought me to the question if not maybe more people have been killed during and including Columbine by white middle class suburban males than, let’s say, by non-white poor inner city gang members?

12-15-2012 at 16:51:20

@Alexander

There are a few versions of the guns not killing people quote.

I found this:
QUOTE:
“Guns don’t kill people – people kill people.”
National Rifle Association (NRA), founded 1871
Slogan used since the 1970s

re: White middle-class shooters.

The Lanza family was indeed white middle-class.

My question is this: What was Mrs Lanza doing with all those firearms? So OK her house looks isolated, but all those guns? Did she really need them all, or was hers just an abnormal love of guns? I know this: if my child were shot to death yesterday with one of her guns, I will be shouting this from the rooftops right now.

@Peter

Thanks for telling us about the doc being filmed about the Chevaline shootings. I will watch out for it and watch it.

@Peter and @Oui

The Cavanna case is a bit before my time. I mean: I only started writing true crime about 10 years ago. Before that just reading a Sherlock Holmes gave me nightmares for a fortnight.

@Oui

You were busy on Booman last night as I can see. Good work.

Yes, you are right, Prof. Juan Cole is great giving the gun statistics.

re: Charlton Heston. Do you think he was ugly? I have a friend who used to be mad about him. Oh, you have no idea how many times I had to sit and watch him strutting about as Moses and coming down from the mountain carrying the Ten Commandments or whatever.

@All

Will gun laws really save lives?

We’ve had quite a number of fatal stabbings here in France these past few years.

12-15-2012 at 17:32:27

@ Oui
Thanks for the links. I’d not heard about the one with the courier and the heart attack.

There’s more about that New York courier execution:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247931/Brandon-Woodard-Law-student-murdered-New-York-drug-courier-killed-missing-cash.html

@Alexander Cartier
I don’t know the numbers, but I’d think the total killed by white mass murderers is very small compared to non-white gang members. In the latter, murders are so common and the victims are few in each event, and go mostly unnoticed – a small item in a newspaper, inside pages, quick mention on local TV. [And the victims are seldom white or of the privileged classes who don't expect to be shot.]

12-15-2012 at 18:08:17

@ Marilyn regarding “Will gun laws really save lifes?”:

“Last year, handguns killed
48 people in Japan.
8 in Great Britain.
34 in Switzerland.
52 in Canada.
58 in Israel.
21 in Sweden.
42 in West Germany.
10,728 in the United States.

God bless America.”

12-15-2012 at 19:07:52

@All
Looking for a “lone psychopath”? You’ve got one. But this one didn’t fancy vintage Swiss firearms..

I do hope president Obama’s statement can soon come true, that we take “significant action” in America to put an end to these increasingly frequent shooting sprees. But easier said than done, considering the power of the lobbies and the so-called “culture” of gun ownership.
Meanwhile by the way, we’re still awaiting an educated reaction from Mitt Romney and others. Now that the election is over, do they no longer “believe” in America?
However tragic this new carnage is by the young age of most victims, it also shows how pointless and ridiculous the usual tirade of gun supporters is: will anyone advocate that teachers or students of grade schools should carry weapons to “defend themselves”? Likewise, saying that “a determined killer will always manage to get a weapon” is just as absurd as would be saying that a determined addict will always find dope, a determined thief will always find a way to break into properties, a determined rogue state will always find a way to get nuclear weapons, and so on.. Crime can never be fully prevented, but it has to be hindered best we can. That’s what society is for. And now, too much simply is too much.
One more thing. Most of the times, people who oppose gun control are just the same who oppose universal healthcare insurance. No big surprise actually. But since such mass-killings are frequently the action of the mentally ill, how can society expect them to get proper treatment before it’s too late if their family and/or themselves do not have insurance? Long-term therapy, counseling, institutions are much more expensive than a couple handguns. But may save lives. Healthcare isn’t limited to dental care -that the wealthy can afford, or to heart attacks -that the young and healthy do not fear. It’s not just a self-centered, personal issue to be addressed through a personal option. It deeply affects society, and also depends on it. “Obamacare” and strict gun control, when the day comes they are both implemented, won’t deprive Americans of their rights but actually increase their liberty by reducing major hazards.

12-15-2012 at 21:26:10

@Alexander

re: Gun statistics

Do we have the numbers for France? Must be more than all but the USA.

12-15-2012 at 22:36:45

Overview of updates school shooting Sandy Hook Elementary K-4

There have been far too many shootings in 2012, coming one after another ever since the summer. But there is something entirely different about a school shooting, particularly one that involves kids too young to understand how guns work, or what it actually means to die.

All victims in Conn. school rampage shot multiple times by .223 Bushmaster automatic assault rifle

CNN Piers Morgan gets angry at NRA lobbyists on gun laws – VIDEO

12-15-2012 at 22:43:42

@ Eugene

What a wise analysis.

I’d particularely stress the point you’ve made regarding the youngsters killed: by no way gun ownership would’ve helped them – they were just too young to even carry guns to defend themselves.

And so they died.

“But the heart beats of our loved ones are the drums to break your sleep”, gun lobbyist Charlton Heston!

12-15-2012 at 23:27:37

Some odd statistics re gun deaths:

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.htm

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world’s 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93

Mexico has strict gun control, but they aren’t that far behind the US. One can say those deaths are because of the NarcoWars, but that doesn’t make it better, since the NarcoWars are the result of insuring a reliable flow of drugs to the US (and Canada too).

Estonia is surprising. My image was that of a peaceful country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths

I would not expect that the majority of gun deaths are suicides. Another surprise.

In the school shooting, the coroner announced all deaths were caused by the long gun (the Bushmaster rifle). Yesterday’s news said that weapon was found later in the shooter’s car. Original, confused misinformation, or have they changed the story to fit the politics of gun control? It’s easier to pass a ban on assault weapons than all guns.

I wouldn’t think the coroner could get away with misidentifying the weapon.

12-16-2012 at 04:05:40

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-15-2012 at 21:26:10
“@Alexander
re: Gun statistics
Do we have the numbers for France? Must be more than all but the USA.”

Sorry to disappoint you. France ranks well below the US in gun deaths. Somewhere around Switzerland and Canada. The French need to put in much greater effort to advance in this prestigious list.

There’s much dispute about statistics between pro-gun and anti-gun factions.

In this list of total firearm-related death rate by country, there are 11 countries with higher gun death rates than the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

In the list I linked previously: http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.htm

Lists gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world’s 36 richest countries in 1994.

It’s an old study. Why do they rank only the richest countries? Poor people don’t count as targets? They don’t feel pain or bleed? Or the list makers purposely selected the cut-off to push the US to the top?

The gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in 1994 by country were as follows:
U.S.A. 14.24
Brazil 12.95
Mexico 12.69
Estonia 12.26
Argentina 8.93
Northern Ireland 6.63
Finland 6.46
Switzerland 5.31
France 5.15
Canada 4.31
Norway 3.82
Austria 3.70
Portugal 3.20
Israel 2.91

12-16-2012 at 09:51:28

Crime statistics are deceiving. One must take various factors into consideration. L’INSEE is best for any statistic required for France.

What I do know is that the world’s a bad place for living, but who of us will volunteer to go live elsewhere? Wherever elsewhere happens to be.

12-16-2012 at 09:59:03

“Slain Alpine cyclist in feud over lover’s fortune” £1.1m; S.T. (12-16-2012)

12-16-2012 at 10:03:19

@NR re: statistics

I was looking at chart yesterday (WHO 2012) to find incomplete data, as in certain countries the guns are primarily used in suicides. Astounding differences in rates per 100,000 – must be culture/religion and living circumstances (economics/healthcare) causing this:

Country homicide/suicide
Mexico 10.00 / 0.67
USA 2.98 / 5.75
Switzerland 0.58 / 5.61
Canada 0.76 / 3.72
Finland 0.26 / 3.34
Serbia 0.62 / 2.81
France 0.22 / 2.33
Norway 0.04 / 1.72
Germany 0.06 / 0.94
Italy 0.36 / 0.81
Israel 0.94 / 0.71
Spain 0.15 / 0.42
UK 0.04 / 0.17
Poland 0.02 / 0.12
Japan 0.02 / 0.04

12-16-2012 at 10:11:00

Welcome back, Lars.

So we have a family feud over money on the Mollier / Schutz side as well. That is most interesting.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1177548.ece

12-16-2012 at 10:18:41

@ Lars 12-16-2012 at 09:59:03
“Slain Alpine cyclist in feud over lover’s fortune” £1.1m; S.T. (12-16-2012)

Well, this is news. Presumably the ST has good sources for this. Recall that others here suggested it as a possible motive.

You didn’t give a link, which I think is OK to do, as it’s a short bit and the rest of the story is by paid subscription. And I also think it’s OK to quote a line or two under fair use. If not Marilyn can remove.

“THE French cyclist murdered alongside three members of a British-Iraqi family in the French Alps had been embroiled in a “bitter dispute” over a £1.1m inheritance.”

“Sylvain Mollier’s relationship with Claire Schutz, a woman 16 years younger than him who had inherited her parents’ pharmacy business, had been of concern to her family.”

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1177548.ece

12-16-2012 at 10:38:57

@Peter

If you have the possibility, could you please contact me. Alexander and Marilyn have my email address.

12-16-2012 at 10:39:15

@ Oui 12-16-2012 at 10:03:19
“@NR re: statistics
I was looking at chart yesterday (WHO 2012) to find incomplete data, as in certain countries the guns are primarily used in suicides. Astounding differences in rates per 100,000 – must be culture/religion and living circumstances (economics/healthcare) causing this:”

Thanks for the more recent data you posted above. Is that for guns only or by all means? Only in Mexico and Israel do homicides exceed suicides. Even in other predominately Catholic countries, where there is a strong moral objection to suicide, suicides predominate.

Sweden is not mentioned at all, and I’d always heard they had a high suicide rate, ascribed to long winter nights.

I’ll predict in the US the gun control issue will be mixed in with The Dreaded (and self-manufactured) Looming Fiscal Cliff, with trade-offs for more taxes and cuts in govt. spending – or more money for school security and mental health vs how much gun control.

12-16-2012 at 10:49:19

@ Marilyn

Could you please pass on my email address to Lars, or vice versa? Thank you.

12-16-2012 at 10:59:06

@All re: earlier posts

Final chapter to my book: Killer X found!

The men in the green 4×4 – employees Parc du Forestiers des Bauges– admitted they recognized the motorcyclist who they had stopped shortly after the massacre in parking Martinet. As the gendarmerie need to gather more evidence, the suspect’s name will not be released beyond his/her initials C.S. Prosecutor Eric Maillaud refused to speculate whether the suspect was male or female. Vinneman had misspoken in the press conference – held on September 5, 2013, a year after the murders that shocked the region. He didn’t state as a matter of fact it could be seen as a crime passional. There need to be more investigation into that theory. It’s true when she arrived at the barrier at the parking she became enraged as Sylvain was 30 minutes late according to timetable [© Max]. She asked straightforward if Sylvain had been with his maîtresse in Chevaline. Sylvain, seeing no harm, admitted it was so. CS grabbed her father’s old Swiss Luger pistol and fired at random aiming at SM at close range. The al-Hilli family in the cross-fire got hit twice, Zainab in the shoulder and SAH in the lower back. In her absolute rage she reloaded twice and murdered all who had witnessed the ugly confrontation. As she knew the surroundings very well, she eluded all oncomers to take a small path bypassing Chevaline and made a quick return to Ugine where she dropped by the police station to inquire about her friend and father of her child, who did not come home after his usual afternoon bike ride.

THE END

The rest of the circumstance has been well covered, however to frustrate the British press, Eric Maillaud received a citation and promotion for a job well done.

[In the Alfred Cavanna murder by two legionnaires, it was the redhaired Monique called “moth” who paid the killers and went to the police to report her husband missing]

Another post I suggested the local wall of silence concerned the relationship Sylvain Mollier and Clair Schutz, heritage of pharmacy one year earlier and the revenge by the older generation well experienced in military training and local customs. No surprise here if this would pan out. My book intended to be fictional, it took quite awhile for the Sun editors to read comments here @Marilyn Z. Tomlins.

Read my follow-up comment – I have to rewrite my published END CHAPTER of my book.

12-16-2012 at 12:02:40

Maillaud must have known about this “bitter dispute” between SM and the Schutz family all along. Thus, in hindsight, he has a bit of explaining to do, regarding his statements that he was “99 per cent sure” that SM was not the killer’s target
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/17/france-killings-idUSL5E8MH3PO20121117
and and that “police are satisfied” that the murders are not linked to SM’s personal life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2225436/The-man-whos-key-Alps-massacre-Mail-investigation-uncovers-vital-new-evidence-execution-British-family-thats-baffling-police.html

However, this fresh report by The Sunday Times explains a lot of things: the local “wall of silence”, CS’s concern when SM didn’t return home on time, the fact that the Schutz family couldn’t get SM buried and forgotten quickly enough …

12-16-2012 at 13:36:05

If we are to believe that there was a dipsute over the pharmacy passing to Claire Schutz, can you really say inheritance, maybe gifted, handed over due to retirement, I wonder if a marriage was planned.

I am more inclined to believe that a woman would have the ‘job’ done for her.

Maybe someone who had and still has a soft spot for her, it was never meant to have escalated to the carnage that ensued.

The Forestry guys know who was on that motorbike, if The Sunday Times article is true then EM is in big trouble, I would expect the Al-Hilli family to sue for defamation or some such.

At least the story is being kept in the news and not being buried under ever more horrific loss of life.

12-16-2012 at 13:48:07

I hope you will read the whole Sunday Times article. It contains very interesting information. I can’t publish it here.

12-16-2012 at 13:58:34

@ NR “National Rifle”:

What a cynical discussion!

Do suicides not count?

Is the country of Mexico just a natural disaster happening right next to the US?

Alex

12-16-2012 at 14:02:44

“This is one of the Safest Places
Of This World* So Immune
I Am Neither Scared Nor Desperate
I Enjoy Every Breath of Life”

*Munster, Germany

(Neaera, “Heavenhell”)

12-16-2012 at 14:06:41

@ Lars:

Well understood, you can’t publish it here.

But couldn’t you just send to me and then we’ll start sending it around – like a bought paper passing from hand to hand?

Alex

12-16-2012 at 14:14:20

I am kind of in a run here:

@ NR cont’d:

And what the hack is about death *rates*?

Every life counts.

So why compare it to the number of residents?

I’ve never have and I never want to read that, just for example, Germany suffered more in WWII than Russia ’cause it lost (maybe, I don’t even know) a higher *percentage* of its people?

What a crap.

12-16-2012 at 14:52:21

@ Lars

How about a summary of the key points, in your own words? (While I wait with bated breath for the Google cache to work its magic)

12-16-2012 at 15:28:16
12-16-2012 at 15:31:54

… and while we wait, here is the spoiler by the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248973/Frenchman-murdered-Alps-massacre-involved-bitter-dispute-million-pound-inheritance.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Strong stuff: (…) It has also emerged that a controversial French politician who carries a gun — Miss Schutz’s uncle — has advised the family to take a ‘vow of silence’ on Mollier’s murder. (…) Despite this, Mr Mollier started to receive large amounts of cash from Claire — a development which did not go down well with her side of the family. (…) ‘They were particularly concerned about Sylvain’s spending. There was a bitter dispute over what was going on and this got worse when Sylvain took three years off to effectively live off Claire’s money.’

12-16-2012 at 15:32:38

@ Y

You win ;-)

12-16-2012 at 15:40:40

@Peter

I would if I could. I will explain why if we get mail-contact. It is simply too sensitive now.

I wonder how Daily Mail can copy big parts of The ST article?

12-16-2012 at 15:54:51
12-16-2012 at 16:04:40

I overlooked this bit during the first reading of the DM article:

Eric Maillaud, the prosecutor leading the investigation, confirmed he was aware of the tensions between the families, but added ‘they were not something I particularly wanted to make public. The family is entitled to their private life.’

This is just incredible. So EM was quite happy to talk at length about the “piste familiale” regarding the AHs, but felt that the Schutz and Mollier family were entitled to their privare lives?

12-16-2012 at 16:49:39

I don’t want to turn this into a soliloquy, and I am usually not keen on conspiracy theories, but this situation is beginning to look quite sinister.

So Pierre Morange, a powerful politician who is quite good at dodging trouble, has advised the Schutz family to take a “vow of silence”. Has he advised Eric Maillaud to do the same? In hindsight, it almost looks that way to me.

From the very start, EM has tried to direct the focus of attention away from the Mollier and Schutz families: The motive is to be found in the UK, 99% certain the killer didn’t intend to kill SM, the whole thing has nowt to do with SM’s private life, etc. etc. – But now we learn that the Schutz family had at least as powerful a motive to have SM killed as ZAH had to have his brother killed. EM didn’t particularly want to make that circumstance public, we are told.

The question that I am asking myself is: Has EM merely been a little economical with the actualité all along, or has political pressure been exerted upon the investigators not to look too closely at SM’s private life? Has EM, in turn, directed investigators to look for the culprit anyhwere – from lunatic asylums to the streets of Baghdad – except in Ugine and Grignon?

12-16-2012 at 17:09:54
12-16-2012 at 17:15:43

The mayor of Chevaline who was interviewed for radio on the day after
the murders said something like “I told my people not to worry as it was only some foreigners who were shot” (in very good English). At the time I thought I had misheard him but now I am not so sure. I have not kept notes or anything bu it probably on BBC local radio.

12-16-2012 at 17:22:24

All my computers have the gremlins, haven’t been able to open fully the link for days, today eventually I caught up, I see I’m a bit late with the link.

Eric Maillaud must be removed from the case, if only for protecting the local family and not that of the ‘etrangers’.

Appalling behaviour if true, but obviously doesn’t want to upset the locals, I wonder if they parade with their left breast laid bare and their trouser leg rolled up above an unshodden foot ?

12-16-2012 at 17:50:10

h/t Lynda Read previous threads.
Timeline Oct. 2011-June 2012 is 9 months! Surprise?

Morange partnered with Thierry Schutz in the pharmacy …

Oct. 1, 2011 – Decision for voluntary liquidation: company pharmacy Schutz-Morange partnership with registered office 73 rue Joseph Martin Grignon (73200)

Suivant acte sous seing privé en date à Grignon du 01.10.2011, enregistré au Pôle enregistrement d’Albertville, le 03.10.2011, bordereau no 2011/814, Case no 2, Ext. 4178, la société PHARMACIE SCHUTZ MORANGE, Société en nom collectif au capital de 1 150 000 €, dont le siège social est à Grignon (73200), 73 rue Joseph-Martin, immatriculée au RCS de Chambéry sous le numéro 445 282 585, représentée par M. et Mme Thierry SCHUTZ, cogérants, a cédé à la société PHARMACIE SCHUTZ, Société à responsabilité limitée au capital de 100 000 €, dont le siège social est à Grignon (73200), 73 rue Joseph-Martin, immatriculée au RCS de Chambéry sous le numéro 533.240.032, représentée par Mlle
Claire SCHUTZ, gérante, un fonds d’officine de pharmacie sis à Grignon (73200), 73 rue Joseph-Martin, et exploité sous l’enseigne “Pharmacie Schutz-Morange”, pour lequel la société PHARMACIE SCHUTZ MORANGE SNC est immatriculée au RCS de Chambéry sous le numéro 445.282.585, moyennant le prix de 1 401 000 euros, avec jouissance du
1er octobre 2011. Pour la réception des oppositions, domicile est élu pour la validité au siège du fonds vendu à Grignon (73200), 73 rue Joseph-Martin, et pour la correspondance chez Actis Conseils, société d’avocats sise à Synergie Park des Bonnettes, 2 rue Willy-Brandt à Arras (62000). Les oppositions, s’il y a lieu, seront reçues dans les dix jours suivant la dernière en date des publications prescrites par la Loi du 26 juillet 1955.

French inheritance law

12-16-2012 at 17:50:31

Quote from the today’s NEWS:
….Mr Maillaud has long held that, “there is no possible reason to imagine [Mr Mollier] is for whatever reason directly implicated in his death. He seems to have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.”….

So it looks like Mr. Maillaud has told the truth from the very beginning: That Mr. Mollier had been at the wrong place at the wront time….

… he didn’t state which PLACE he had in mind when he spoke it out….

If they would find the murder, before the 10 years are over.
May be within the next days??

Oh my god- this would the best x-mas gift ever.

I guess, not even to me!

12-16-2012 at 17:54:03

@Peter
I don’t want to turn this into a soliloquy, and I am usually not keen on conspiracy theories, but this situation is beginning to look quite sinister.

Are you suggesting EM may come calling for a cup of English tea by Marilyn in Paris? Do we need to bolt the front doors once again?

12-16-2012 at 17:56:10

beside that:

“If”- then it would be more (!!!!) than embarrassing for he French part of the story, so to speak Maillaud & Co.

I’m just some kind of speechless…..

12-16-2012 at 18:01:51

@ Peter
No worries of soliloquy. I only read the piece in the DM. It does shine a new light, but it’s also packed with inaccurate statements. e.g. parental leave in France doesn’t go for 3 years, but for 1 year, being renewable twice. The phrasing “won the legal right” for such leave is inadequate, since any parent male or female with a newborn, even out of wedlock, qualifies for this. AFAIK, the pharmacy couldn’t have been “given” to CS, cause had it been, she would have had to pay the gift tax which amounts to 35pc of appraisal upwards a certain threshold. She was more probably given legal benefit of its sole revenue, and later can recover the full asset whenever her parents’ estate is settled. That this Monsieur Morange has been previously linked to several unusual incidents is no surprise. Meanwhile, MP and mayor of a small city or not, friend with N. Sarkozy or not, I don’t think he could much interfere with the current investigation. Prosecutors tend to follow orders from the current government (foes of Sarkozy and his friends) and examining judges have a reputation for incriminating formerly powerful politicians whenever they can.
Still, I agree with you on 2 points:
1.) SM’s background is far from being transparent. But it could be something else than money that led to his assassination.
2.) EM’s accounts of the investigation have constantly been designed to lead the press and the public off-track. Why remains to be understood. It doesn’t have to be political pressure.

12-16-2012 at 18:54:20

@Lynda

Pretty much. But they stole the article, cut it up in pieces and tried to put it together again, however, some pieces didn’t really fit then so they had to use some brute force.

I wonder if the people, who do this kind of work, call themselves journalists?

12-16-2012 at 18:59:30

@ Oui 12-16-2012 at 17:54:03
Your comment made me chuckle. I don’t know how these things are handled in France, but, in China, few things are more dreaded than an invitation to “drink tea” with the police. Such an invitation indicates that your life has just fundamentally and irrevocably changed for the worse.

@ Eugene 12-16-2012 at 18:01:51
Thanks for the clarifications, which all sound very sensible to me. Both the french and british press have picked up on the DM’s story by now, so let’s see what else emerges in the next few days.

One minor detail that I found quite interesting was this:
(…) au guidon d’un vélo d’une valeur de plus de 4000 euros, cadeau de son épouse. (…)
http://www.come4news.com/tuerie-des-alpes-la-cible-aurait-ete-le-cycliste-97808
I *had* been wondering how SM could have afforded such an expensive bike.

12-16-2012 at 19:02:09

@Eugene

My neighbours gave their only (child) son a property they ownned for he and his wife to live in, along with their children.

Nobody could have have seen what happened next – the middle grandson, graduated for university, could not find a job as an accountant, so, encouraged by his family and rightly, took a position as a waiter in the local tourist resort for the summer.

The owner of the restaurant was dealing in drugs, his staff became involved at a much lower level, my neighbours grandson fell into this category.

The police raided the restaurant, they were all found in possession or dealing, I won’t go into the rest, nevertheless it resulted in the kid being sent to prison.

His parents decided the best was to move near to him, Tours, in this case, and wanted to sell the house gifted to them.

At which point they were informed that they would have to pay tax upon THE SALE, and had to leave it nine years before they could sell without penalty, so the property has been rented out since – whether a family business would be different, I don’t know.

A similar law exists in the UK whereby anything gifted is subject to the giver living 7 years beyond the date of the gift.

I very much doubt that M. Morange has anything to do with this case, except I’m sure, he would prefer his name had been kept out of it, hence the privacy.

Or Laurent Schutz, said ‘Uncle Pierre you must know someone who can stop Mollier from taking advantage of my sisters money, he’s stopped working and bought himself a very expensive ‘velo’ and he’s too old to ride in competitions ! By the way, I’m not happy about Papa giving her everything, especially as it was ‘Maman’ who had inherited sufficient to set up the business’.

If only it were so simple……

By the way there is also a liquidation in 2003 of the pharmacy and a selection of pharmaceutical badges gifted by Genevieve and Thierry to a virtual museum. I am aware that internet searches reveal very different rsults depending on where you live !

12-16-2012 at 19:10:31

@Lynda

You can be sure there are more news to come….

So all you living in France, be careful out there!

12-16-2012 at 19:28:22

@Lars

Good ! I would prefer the honest truth than a French truth !

Having a French husband and friends is illuminating, the economy of such, they are experts, I am often in awe of their deceit even when everyone knows it is a lie .

12-16-2012 at 19:34:00

@ Alexander Cartier 12-16-2012 at 14:14:20
“@ I am kind of in a run here:
@ NR cont’d: And what the hack is about death *rates*?
Every life counts. So why compare it to the number of residents?
I’ve never have and I never want to read that, just for example, Germany suffered more in WWII than Russia ’cause it lost (maybe, I don’t even know) a higher *percentage* of its people? What a crap.”

But I agree with you entirely. Ignoring 60,000 deaths in Mexico resulting directly from the consumption of drugs to the north, is shameful. Yet the prime consumers – the entertainment industry – take great pains to insure they aren’t wearing blood diamonds on the red carpet. It’s nonsense.

Who dies is important to the media and consumers of its products. Were it not innocent, fluffy, predominately white kids of affluent families, who perhaps moved to the Connecticut town for safety, the latest school shooting story would not have legs. Had the exact same thing happened in an inner city school, the story would cause much less hand-wringing. As are gang shootings, so far largely minorities, largely ignored. Again many of them related to insuring a reliable supply of drugs.

The shooters know this. They get the maximum reaction and name recognition, even posthumously, from targeting affluent, white schools, movie theaters, malls.

However, if we want to discuss guns or gun owners causing deaths, we must discuss the death-rate. It doesn’t make sense to say the US, with 300,000,000 people is an inherently unsafe place, compared to Canada with a tenth the population, if we only look at the absolute number of deaths and not relative to the population.

12-16-2012 at 20:10:25

Due to television, films and video games, the horror of untimely deaths seems to have become something of nothing.

The Chevaline scene has been likened to a Hollywood movie scene, no doubt the Connecticut tragedy will eventually fall in the same category.

We have become so used to such scenes in fantasy that we are immune to the real thing.

12-16-2012 at 20:18:25

@Peter .. thanks for the warning :)

It’s been a while since “he cha” (drink tea, 喝茶)

He cha itself occurs mostly in police stations, but also in secluded offices at workplaces or in schools; in some cases, in one’s home where security police show up at the door and force their way in against the will of the host. It can last anywhere from an hour to several hours.

Obvious why these two nations don’t get along – Japanese tea gathering

12-16-2012 at 20:49:46

@Lynda

I just posted about my concern for video games, parenting and kids going haywire:
Video Games Don’t Kill Kids

12-16-2012 at 21:23:13

@Oui

I recall reading your comments about your grandson earlier, I would certainly agree that video games emulating killing are not the cause but they may add to the effect.

My adult stepson has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, in 2005, with a tendancy to paranoia, in the past week he has been classified, finally, as handicapped by the French state, which is a curse and a blessing.

Several doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists have said he was one of the unlucky ones, cannabis smoking being the trigger, although of course we’ll never know if the illness would have developed without this factor.

He has a masters degree, a very intelligent boy, but never did have much common sense or grasp of money.

His parents separated when he was only 18 months old, then divorced, they are from two ends of the political and social spectrum. He told me many years ago that he felt he had to agree with each parent but never be able to express himself as himself, if you get my meaning.

He is prone to fits of anger and depression, he has been sectioned twice, at the behest of his mother, undergone fortnightly injections that stabilised him and he did work part time for the local council, but they did not renew his contract after the year was up. Since then he has stopped injections because they made him gain weight.

Which brings me to outside influences, we have managed to get him to stop playing online video games, they would always increase his aggressivity and he avoided sleep because the ‘zombies’ or whatever were coming to get him. He relishes in violent films and has taken up karate, he knows how to break his fathers arm with one twist !

Do I think he’s dangerous, no it is all in his head, but when I read of the atrocities committed by young white men who are disaffected by society it leaves me with a doubt and he was the kindest, most gentle and truly handsome teenager you could meet. He does not accept he is ill, as is usually the case, his world is the real world and we are all mad.

The relevance to this case, maybe nothing or could be everything, Eric Maillaud if looking for the crazy isn’t going to find him in a mental institution, there are so few decent places in France, and the care in the community is very hit and miss depending on your postcode.

That’s my bag emptied….

12-16-2012 at 21:47:34

@ All

No clues for Chevaline, but plenty for Sandy Hook

Making sure that current readings by the courts (including the Supreme Court), of specific sections of the Bill of Rights, however educated they may appear, do not supersede common sense or substantially infringe other universally recognized rights of the people, is good medicine for the body politic, and the Connecticut massacre is a painful yet good booster shot (sorry for the pun). In such an overwhelmingly horrific tragedy, what should basically trigger (sorry) attention is the fact that the alleged murderer didn’t break the law at any time prior to shooting down scores of first-graders. To assume that it’d be somehow possible to stop anyone from using firearms for criminal purposes at the exact minute he or she is about to do so, is clearly mere fantasy. To assume that the way to protect society from such crimes is to have law-abiding citizens enforce it by possessing and using lethal weapons themselves in self-defense amounts to some insane and pathetic time-travel that would have 21st century Americans unnecessarily behave like their 18th century ancestors needed to, for lack of sufficient law enforcement agencies. This seems hardly debatable for anyone in good faith. And it certainly doesn’t imply firearms couldn’t be used otherwise by certified individuals for legitimate purposes (hunting, sportive target shooting, etc) within strict monitoring and at dedicated locations.
Self-defense is a very slippery rope, and actually hardly ever realistic nowadays in our environment. Those who use that argument to legitimate extensive gun ownership would be in pain to produce significant evidence of recent incidents when such self-defense was indeed successfully exercised: law-enforcement today is obviously a job, it requires fully trained professionals, it no longer is something just anybody should try on spur of the moment. These days are over, period.
When the law (or its reading) doesn’t fit with the actual circumstances of daily life, you simply have to change the law. The sooner the better. Wishful thinking? Let’s not forget this is what was previously said of so many other changes our societies have been through in the past, be it abolition of slavery, women’s rights, social entitlements to name a few. What may sound today like a revolution will tomorrow look like something quite obvious. Since America has for long been a global leader in terms of technical development, why should it be trailing most developed nations in terms of societal benchmarks? As the sadly forgotten late civil-rights activist Emma Goldman already used to say: “Sooner or later, the American people is going to wake up”. Why wait?

12-16-2012 at 22:09:15

@ Lynda
While the news channels continue with their endless blather about the school shootings, the entertainment channels were running no less than six different movies which just happened, as I surfed past them, to have extended scenes of shootouts with the very assault weapons that all claim to deplore in real life but nonetheless extol in their profitable fantasies.

Note how much fashion and style are at the core of these mass murders.
Since Columbine, the shooters are careful to select their clothing and weaponry to emulate what’s current in movies and video games, including how weapons are held and the shots fired. The dress code changed from trench-coats or dusters to military pants and body armour though in two recent cases the face-masks seem off-script.

The news channels by now have interviewed every so-called, and self-appointed “expert” on the matter. Each one pushing for more of whatever it is they are selling. The security/industrial complex, the mental health/industrial complex, the educational/industrial complex, the law enforcement/industrial complex all clamoring for more funds for their sector.

One good thing is that the Connecticut police just warned the Internet vigilante nutters that they will be tracked and prosecuted for threatening others involved in the case.

You know who benefited from the school shootings? It is the Australian radio DJs who were being virtually lynched over the nurse’s suicide. Pushed that story right off the “Front Page”.

@ Oui @ Peter
What a delightful custom – He cha – beats “helping us with our inquiries” or “a person of interest”.

12-16-2012 at 22:39:13

@NR that is my point, killings are normal on the small or big screen and the more sensational the better – we are being led into a world where nothing is of consequence.

And I am convinced that the world is changing through media, be it gangsters and their guns or homeys and their bitches, just look at the number of females lining up to be in the rap videos, pushing their large rear ends at the camera.

It’s ‘fancy dress’ and role play, most of us have tried to be someone we’re not when young, forging a personality, charisma, sexuality, mostly harmless exuberance of youth.

@Eugene

Guns would not have saved those children, John Lennon, the Dunblane kids or the Hungerford slayed, and so many more, because whatever you do you cannot protect yourselves or anyone else against a mad man. You can only hope to temper the effect by not making gun ownership easy, the USA needs to look at the age old ‘constitution’ right to bear arms and bring it into the 21st Century – there is law enforcement in place to protect its people, well that is my understanding, and if that isn’t effective, ask yourself why?

12-16-2012 at 23:02:30

@Lynda

Thank you for explanation, it makes a lot of sense. Wish you and your stepson well.

In my diary and comments @BooMan I have noted these similarities – ColumbineAuroraVirginia TechNewtown.

The only massacre ever in the Netherlands that shocked the nation: a white young male, intelligent, well-to-do family, access to weapons and suffering from mental illness (schizophrenia). Apparently violence is triggered by a setback and it seems like a volcanic explosion with minor tremors as a warning.

Psychiatric diagnosis is extremely difficult and no two persons are the same or require a similar treatment. I found this article in Salon.com an horrific story about a mother and her autistic son turning violent. Not for the faint hearted.

12-16-2012 at 23:51:49

@ Marilyn : Was the Sunday Times story on the SM / CS dispute what you were alluding to when you said you’d publish some information, then decided not to? Or are more revelations to come?

@ Lynda @ Eugene
The issue of gun control in the US is beyond debate. Each side has deeply held convictions like abortion and will not be swayed by the other. It comes down now to votes and political pressure.

I have a new proposal. While it would not be wise to arm 6 and 7 year olds with assault rifles and fit them with stylish body armour from The Gap, or there would be too many deaths at playtime, we could train all the boys (and girls too, if they wished) and arm them with paintball guns.

One or two fiendish killers would not be able to kill as many when hit by volleys of paintballs, and while blinded by paintballs and staggering about, the kids could quickly entrap them with plastic restraints, like the Lilliputians did with Gulliver. : ) :)

12-17-2012 at 08:31:58

“Location Reporting Privacy Reminder
To protect your privacy we would like to remind you that your mobile device is reporting your location data to Google. This is just a privacy reminder – if you did not enable this or want to stop reporting your location, disable location reporting in Google Mobile Maps or Google Latitude location settings.

The account being used is [user.name]@gmail.com

You have enabled Google location history on your Google account. Only you can view your location history dashboard, and you can delete your location history when you choose to do so.
View My Location History

Google location history

You are also using Google Public Location Badge, which can share your location to people you might not be friends with on Latitude.”

Alex

12-17-2012 at 09:20:17

@NR

re:Marilyn : Was the Sunday Times story on the SM / CS dispute what you were alluding to when you said you’d publish some information, then decided not to? Or are more revelations to come?

No, it was not. I am not one who believes that the SunTimes and the DM’s follow-up are correct.

Also, @Eugene gave us a very comprehensible and interesting explanation of inheritance laws here in France.

@Alex

re:“Location Reporting Privacy Reminder

Mein liebe Gott — now you’ve got me scared! (That was not from a dictionary, Alex, but from my school German memory.

@Lynda

re: your stepson

I do hope for his sake as well as for that of his father, his siblings and you that he will be alright.

@Oui

Thank you for the links. I am getting down to reading them in the afternoon: first I must be outta here.

@All

I do not pass on email addresses or the real names of commentators. I like to think that anyone commentating on something I’ve written on my website has the assurance that such info will be treated as confidential. Even if given the OK to pass on such info I won’t because it can be turned or held against me afterwards. So sorry folks but do not ask me for email addresses or real names. If you want to say something relating to the subject being discussed, then email me that info on my website and I will publish it for all to read provided I think it is within the law to do so.

12-17-2012 at 11:08:41

http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/annecy-shootings/50638/al-hilli-massacre-cyclist-was-embroiled-inheritance-row

Sylvain Mollier’s brother, Christophe, apparently speaking to the media for the first time, told the paper that his family had been interviewed for less than an hour by the police. “We expected far longer interviews in an inquiry of this gravity.”

No wonder EM expects solving this case to take ten years. Unbelievable :-(

12-17-2012 at 12:45:29

Do you guys remember the statistics I posted here about 10,728 gun shot victims in the US in one given year alone?

I always thought that statistics might be a little outdated.

For it figured “West-Germany” as one of the countries.

A country that ceased to exist 22 years ago.

Well, the statistics *is* outdated.

For, according to the “Daily Mail”, the death toll in 2012 up to now alone is

94,388.

That is almost 9 times the number of deaths given in my post!

To correlate these 94,388 deaths:

German police, once again according to the “Daily Mail”, fired 95 shots in 2011.

I am not missing a “,000″ here – they fired 95 shots.

49 of these 95 were warning shots.

In Germany, every single bullet fired from a police gun is subject to investigation.

12-17-2012 at 12:50:15

***Erratum****

94,388 is the number of people shot in the US in 2012 alone.

9,484 is the number of people shot to death in the US in 2012 alone.

*That* rather corelates with the 10,728 death in that other year.

12-17-2012 at 13:13:46

Alexander, I can’t understand why people are so gung-ho …about guns. I do not find guns beautiful. Then I rather collect serpents than guns.

12-17-2012 at 13:17:10

The skill of communication

Genius of the past da Vinci, Galileo, multidiscipline, inquisitive, curiosity, science Nobel prize winners. Perhaps some of these men were … autistic in some sense.

From article in Scientific American by Dean Keith Simonton :

“Genius can share certain potentially negative traits with the mentally ill, but when these traits are
combined with specific positive attributes, the result is creativity rather than psychopathology.”

Children are raised in a disturbed world of violence, Hollywood films, video games, cut throat capitalism, demand is high to survive, small family size, loneliness, parents pursuing a career outside the home, how well have we as parents managed to cope, attentiion deficit to children, loss of empathy, individualistic, narcisstic, body needs to be perfect, burden of not meeting the standards set by society, how did this change through the decades or centuries, challenges are immense, how well do we care for our children. How do we treat the less bright, socially ackward, bullying, psychological hurt, withdrawel from society, obsession, video games, bomb bursts, violence, revenge , escape, suicide.

In the Netherlands, we don’t have a gun culture – see charts. How do kids cope with bullying at school or on social media? Solution to problem: they jump. How very sad!

Excellent posts and discussion.

12-17-2012 at 13:45:57

@Marilyn

I’m with you regarding the attraction of guns.

@Oui

Yes, interesting stuff, there are more people studying psychotherapy etc in colleges than ever, yet there never seem to be enough services to deal with the fallout of todays society.

I suppose I remember a time of extended families living in the locality, there was a natural support network, today they are spread and a real neighbourhood has ceased to exist, everyone wanting their privacy and using their homes as entertainment sites.

12-17-2012 at 14:14:12

EM has taken a vow of silence ;-)

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/tuerie-de-chevaline-la-piste-du-cycliste-fermee-a-99-9-estime-le-procureur_188727.html

Selon la famille, “il n’existait pas de contentieux et de conflit particulier entre Monsieur Mollier et sa belle-famille”, a par ailleurs rapporté le procureur. “A 99,9% il n’existe pas de lien entre Sylvain Mollier et le meurtre de la famille Al-Hilli”, a-t-il ajouté.

12-17-2012 at 14:32:37

Well, I think it is time for me to leave now. I wish everybody, who has not killed anybody, a Merry Christmas! I will put on my Father Christmas costume and go visiting some nice kids, and some rather naughty ones.
As you all know, Santa Claus comes from here up in the north, even though we call him “jultomten”. :)

@J Cave

Sorry, I have to make you disappointed. Sweden, that was just some days ago covered with white snow, is now grey and muddy. But it will be colder again, so perhaps, perhaps… :)

@Marilyn

Don’t worry, everything is solvable. :)

@All

We’ll meet again, don’t know where, don’t know when, but I hope we’ll meet again some sunny day….

12-17-2012 at 16:20:22

Deep sigh …

“A 99.9% there is no link between Sylvain Mollier and murder of the al-Hilli.”

Smart aleck prosecuteur, and he isn’t lying!
Eric Maillaud was careful in his wording and he did not say there was no link between killer X and Sylvain Mollier. On the other hand, the common link was they were all shot by the same gun and one killer. So EM seems always right and yet can never be truthfully accurate. The (Haute) Savoie wall of silence stays until killer X reveals himself by stepping forward.

Happy Yuletide!!

12-17-2012 at 16:28:26

@ Lars
We’ll miss you. You made great comments. hey då.

12-17-2012 at 17:33:57

I just listened to Europe1 Ruquier. And there was one question about Mollier, with the answer being that ‘Mollier was found to be the target in the end’

So, did I misheard this or am I missing something here??

http://www.europe1.fr/Radio/Direct/ … ON VA S’GÊNER !

12-17-2012 at 17:53:25

no link

Agence France Presse (AFP) spoke to Prosecutor Maillaud about the SunTimes story and you can read on the above what he said. Sylvain Mollier was not the target; there was no conflict between him and his companion’s family; he had not meant to go on to that road and had got lost. And the investigation into Sylvain Mollier’s life has closed.

12-17-2012 at 17:57:07

@Lars

Should you still look in here. Yes, we will no doubt hear from you again when there is new news about this crime.

Happy Festive Season to you.

You have my email address so if ever you are in Paris … if you can still stomach France and the French that is … give me a ring to say hello.

12-17-2012 at 18:08:15

Off topic, but maybe relevent too.

Over the last 10 years with the rise in Mass shootings in schools etc, and teenage and adulescent suicides I wonder has the effect of the Mosquito security Device, used by shop keepers etc, and only heard by teenagers, effected our young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito

It is widely used in Ireland and not heard by adults. It is used to move on loitering teenagers who hear an irritating buzzing sound. Note mothers chatting outside shops with babys in prams can not hear the sound but what is it doing to the young child.

Just a thought.

12-17-2012 at 18:30:14

@Juno

re: mosquito

Well well. I’ve never heard of it — or — ha ha — heard it as I am older than 25!!

But thank you for drawing our attention to it.

12-17-2012 at 18:33:00

@Max

Sorry,no time now (this evening) to listen to Ruquier. He does make statements which he can’t back up and which then gets him into hot water.

Anyway, you will see my comment and link about Prosecutor Maillaud’s response the SunTimes’s story.

Thank you for telling us about Ruquier.

12-17-2012 at 18:59:57

@ Max

Can you be more precise regarding the point at which Mollier was mentioned, I have found the most recent podcast from this afternoon.

12-17-2012 at 20:11:29

Feeding the British press or more misleading information

“Il s’est mal guidé et s’est trompé de route. Il est arrivé sur place purement par erreur”, a déclaré Eric Maillaud.

“Sylvain Mollier et sa compagne n’étaient pas mariés, il n’y avait aucun risque qu’il puisse appréhender l’héritage”, a souligné Eric Maillaud.

These remarks must be seen in his profession as communicator with the press and to great extent protect the investigation. Only the international press (British) are foolish enough to believe any of his statements as they make no sense whatsoever. The route through Chevaline and the climb to parking Martinet is between two distinct mountain ridges – Google View from Doussard due South. Only short-sighted touring cyclists from abroad would perhaps make a mistake, not a local French cyclist Sylvain Mollier from the Savoie!

The family dispute between Schutz and Mollier was about the significant sums of money given away by Clair. The inheritance is through their son Louis if CS would suddenly pass away by heart attack or accident. I would think the biological father would be guardian over the Schutz pharmacy inheritance. The pharmacy would lose its qualified owner and certified pharmacist and would have to be sold.

Éric Maillaud, un procureur très communicant

The Chancellery decided to train judges in communication. In accordance with Article 11 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, which sets up a breach in the secrecy of investigations: “To prevent the spread of fragmentary information and inaccurate or terminate a disturbance of public order, the prosecutor may (…) make public objective elements from the procedure with no judgment on the merits of the charges against the defendants. ”

Article: Les procureurs, rois de la communication.

12-17-2012 at 22:16:10

@Oui

I believe the prosecutor.

I have the greatest respect for the law. They *do* get the culprit. It may take a little longer in some cases than in others, but in the end they do.

12-17-2012 at 22:21:57

france3

The regional TV network, France 3, also this evening reported that the SunTimes was incorrect.

12-17-2012 at 23:12:31

@Marilyn Z.

French press is unanimous in opinion, but at the same time identical articles. Thus from a single source, nicely coordinated.

Marilyn can you explain, looking at the view from Doussard towards the Combe d’Ire, how SM could have mistaken the route and traveled 4 km to a point of no return? If you can convince me, I’ll be nice to EM and believe him. I suspect he is protecting the ongoing investigation and it’s heading south to the Savoie.

Perhaps your source tells you otherwise …

12-18-2012 at 00:14:03

‘Le cycliste français dont le corps avait été retrouvé gisant à côté de la voiture de la famille al-Hilli était là par “erreur”. “Il s’est mal guidé et s’est trompé de route. Il est arrivé sur place purement par erreur”, a déclaré à l’Agence France Presse M. Maillaud.’

The weak point of EM’s ‘error’ argument is that he does NOT tell which route SM was supposed to take. What had he planned. Plz Mr EM … which route was he supposed to take???

I’m with Oui.

Jeez, if you care to look at the map. From Ugine, you pass Faverges, Doussard and later Saint Jorioz

Now SM went ‘left’ at Doussard, straight up the mountain road Combe d’Ire … errrrmmmm which ‘left’ was he supposed to take??? Left at Faverges??? That’s only 12 kms … and he made an ‘error’???? On his doorstep? A biker with a 500 Euro bike, taking a wrong turn 10 kms from home?

Left at Saint Jorioz then? Well that would point to a ‘tour’ of a minimum of 110 km which at least would take him over 3 hours with a ETA at home around 18.00h (bringing in the dubious call of CS, because if expected back at 1800 when do you start to ‘panic’?? 18.30?)

So, mr EM, what was the planned route of SM? And how could he have mistaken Combe d’Ire for something else (what else)???

PS, I did read a long time ago about an uncle of SM who said SM liked to bike in that region (pointing to the fact that SM surely had biked there before) …. now we do not hear this anymore.

SM made an ‘error’ (low changes) and happend to turn up at Martinet just at the very moment a shooter decides to kill UK tourists??

EM, you are quick to say SM made ‘an error’, but what about AH? Did he also made an ‘error’? On top of that, the Killer X … wtf was he doing there? Waiting for ppl to end up at Martinet because of navgation errors?? Vecause Killer X sure was mad at Sm, burning bearly a clip on that man alone … and he was not even the target, although he was shot first and last.

There is something weird and strange about this killing. It is like there are 2 things mixed up. If you try to explain SM, then the AH side looks weird. But if you try to reason strating with AH, then the whole SM affair is weird … The whole thing just doesn’t seem to match up.

I have left this case for some weeks, and on returning I do not see any progress. Not any progress at all … bar for the fact that first SM was ruled out at 99% and now at 99,9% … yup, I do not call that progress … still 0,1% you know …. Just calculate the changes somebody makes a navigation ‘error’ and ends up being shot at Martinet (I tell you, that is much, much, much less than 0,1%:)

- End Max rant:)

12-18-2012 at 00:16:49

Must read 5000(!) euro bike;)

12-18-2012 at 00:37:51

@Max & Oui

I’m with you on this, also does that mean that Christophe Mollier was also lying about Sylvains debts, messy divorce and trouble with the new partners parents ? And the family only questioned for an hour.

What a pity he didn’t grant privacy to the Al-Hilli family as was thought fit to give to the Schutz Mollier.

He needs to appease the community and also how can he go back on his very first comments that this started in Britain.

No further forward at all and that is just the way they like it.

Whatever happened, I hope that someone somewhere will keep this story in peoples minds.

12-18-2012 at 09:18:19

Oh, I do so wish I can persuade you all that Sylvain Mollier was *not* the target. Maybe I’ve become too French and like them I swallow up whatever I am told, but …

Oui, I do not have a high-ranking individual whispering info about the investigation into my ear, but I do speak to *some* people who do know more about this case than we do.

I trust the police: maybe that’s my upbringing — one of my uncles was a hangman!! (Now, if that’s not going to knock the socks off some of you, nothing will.) I can see all of you scatter very far away from me and my site now … Anyway, once (I was already an adult then and living in Paris) I asked him about hanging people and I’ve used what he told me in a couple of my articles. Yes, I am a terrible woman and the bad karma I’m putting out into the world will come back to me, and who knows, maybe this very Friday – December 21.)

Anyway, seriously: I do not close comments ever. Therefore if someone gets to something I’ve written on my site 6 mnths or a year or three after I’ve written it and they wish to have their say, they can do so.

Similarly, I am not going to close comments here, as I’ve seen Craig Murray is going to close his on December 24.

Therefore, if any thought comes to mind, know that you can come and speak about it here. But, of course, people will have other things to do over this coming Festive Season, so if you fall silent, I won’t put you on my list for when I return to serial killing once Father Cmas has been – and my house guests have been too.

You do all also have access to me by email on this site.

12-18-2012 at 11:11:13

@ Marilyn : A thought on the Sunday Times stories; I wonder if every week or two there will be another story, with another new motive. Like they are serializing the mystery as the old Sherlock Holmes tales were. The next episode they’ll finally name the grandma from Sweden as the most likely target; hopefully something seedy and sleezy – she was a belly dancer for the Iraqi secret services, entrapping foreigners with her irresistible charms.

The moderator at Craig Murray said they will not close the discussion as long as comments are added – they just keep rolling that date forward. Don’t know why, their page/theme is set that way?

Can you tell us some adventures of Uncle Hangman until new Chevaline clues come in?

To all who plan to celebrate Mayan Doomday’s Eve with me, it occurred to me that the Mayans did not have time zones back in their day, nor would they have started a new day at midnight, more like sunrise. So Doom will happen at Sunrise on 21 Dec 2012 (or Sunrise on 22 Dec if they meant to let us have the 21st as the last day) wherever the Mayans lived – Mexico and Central America I think.

Something more on viande de cheval from the restaurants’ side:
http://albertaventure.com/2012/02/the-other-side-of-the-horsemeat-trade-restaurants/

12-18-2012 at 12:09:15

@ Marilyn

Somehow we have no choice but to swallow whatever the French prosecutor/gendarmerie want us to believe. It’s all in the game. And I do agree the French police are usually more efficient than it first seems. Likewise, I wonder why their British counterparts have been so silent for so long. Meanwhile,

@ Max

I guess you’re right in mentioning that SM could hardly have “got lost” on a bike ride only 15 km from home. He was a local, he must have been going on bike rides in the area for many years, there are numerous road signs everywhere, he presumably carried a GPS capable device, so it just doesn’t make sense. So it eventually boils down to 2 options. a) He may have planned a meeting at Martinet beforehand, but didn’t want people around him to know, b) He may have unexpectedly met someone he knew while riding his bike who convinced him of changing his itinerary.

@ All

In any case, since we haven’t been offered any picture of him nor of several other potential players in this case, here’s a link to a group snap of the locals registered for the 2012 Doussard triathlon. Check it out.
http://www.tmt-triathlon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Photo-TMT.jpg
Any face worth considering, male or female?

12-18-2012 at 12:25:04

Re: the AH family.
I am a madman/psychopath/deranged family member/grasping brother/ irate neighbour/jealous work-colleague or any thing else you care to mention:

I am going to bump off (what a lovely old-fashioned English term!) a particular person. I know where he lives, his family circumstances, his children’s school, his occupation, his vehicle and his interests and more or less his daily time-table. I know all these things because I LIVE IN the UK and probably in fairly close proximity to the target either, socially, geographically or family! Why else would I come into contact with him and thus form this desire to kill him?
As I am sure you are aware, gun laws are very strict in the UK. Whilst the huntin’ shootin’ and fishin’ fraternity ensure that shotguns and very-lightweight rifles are in general usage, hand-guns are very rare and subject to extreme police supervision. Therefore, unless you have contacts in the criminal under-class handguns are not a favoured means in the UK of murder.
The first time I drove from France to northern Germany I couldnot understand why no-one was checking my papers? It may have escaped everyone’s notice but the UK doesnot allow unrestricted movement of persons. Everyone entering or leaving the country now gets entered on our old friend the computer databases. If any of AH’s family or intimate friends were out of the country during the critical period then it is a known fact. This applies even more to vehicles. Should anyone have followed him across to France they certainly didn’t catch a bus!
So what point am I making? If I wanted to kill this mythical person I would do it in the UK! If I wanted to shoot him I would steal a shot-gun and whilst messy it is very effective at short range. (where from? – Nearly every farm house would have one for vermin control). Otherwise the good old Ango-Saxon method of bludgeoning! Read the cases of murder in the UK. In 95% of them the participants know each other and most of them occur in the heat of the moment. Where there is a degree of pre-planning, the body is almost invariably buried or otherwise disposed of – We’ve had a few gruesome ones there involving pigs, incinerators and acid ugh! Why else would you want to draw attention to yourself? Better to let the victim be a ‘missing person’ rather than a dead one!

No, there nothing in these murders which point to a UK connection, except a desire by the Investigators to muddy the waters even further.

12-18-2012 at 12:42:16

I think what Eric Maillaud was really trying to say and it was lost in translation was:

“I am now 99,9% sure the killer got lost on his way to the murder scene.”

:)

Alex

12-18-2012 at 13:07:49

@ Alex
Or, the killer may have have got lost on his way out of the crime scene, by being seen before he could take the Route du Moulin detour.

12-18-2012 at 13:25:58

@ Eugene:

Of course there are some to consider!

5th from right or 7th from left (counting the kneeling) look exactly like I imagined Sylvain Mollier!

45 but still be able to make a woman 16 years his junior fall for him!

And given that I’ll play the role in the upcoming movie he’d better look good!

Alex

12-18-2012 at 13:30:30

Oh s**t, I got my counting wrong!

Has to read “12th from right or 7th from left (counting the kneeling)”.

:)

Alex

12-18-2012 at 13:47:17

It is even more simple.

EM says SM ‘got lost’

But there is NO evidence of this. ZERO as in 0% evidence. There is NO SMS, email, scribbled-notes-besides-his-body or phonecall with SM stating ‘help, I got lost’ …

… so, EM is ‘deducing’ that SM ‘got lost’ … and I simply refuse to believe SM ‘got lost’. It is as simple as that.

Now, if EM comes up with evidence of SM’s ‘planned route’ or whatever, I might be able to believe an EM ‘explanation’, but for the moment I dont buy it.

SM might not have been the target … ok … but the ‘SM got lost’ explanation is just bullshit:) … it just points to the fact that EM does not have any clue what happened and why ppl were present at Martinet (and as such, there is no progress in solving this mystery)

- M

12-18-2012 at 14:11:26

Regarding SM getting lost, not only is that highly unlikely in and of itself, I should expect a € 5000 bike to have a GPS cycle computer, like one of these
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=160&ra=true

No, I can think of only two ways in which this myth of SM having gotten lost came into being: 1. Some witness told the police that Thierry Schutz had recommended his route on that particular day to SM. Seeing no way to wriggle out of that one, TS then claimed: “Yes, I did recommend a route to him, but that route didn’t lead past the Martinet lay-by. SM must have lost his way somehow.” 2. TS did in fact recommend a different route to SM, but SM deliberately deviated from it – for example because he had an appointment at the Martinet.

On a different note, EM seems to have realized that outright denials are not good enough and has taken to dropping chaff at the foreign press, such as this piece of non-news:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/french-alps-shootings-police-reveal-1494989
The bike had a top case and side bags that could have contained the murder weapon and ammunition, adding fuel to an assassination theory

12-18-2012 at 14:50:05

SM may not have been the target but he was ‘up to no good’, this is what is being covered up, hence being lost, laughable idea as you’ve all said.

(But one heck of a coincidence that the Al-Hillis also had a meeting in the same place at the same time, with someone who turned out to be their killer)

Most likely suspects, are Brett Martin, Mystery biker and Forestry Guys, I wonder if there was an ‘et tu, Brutus’ moment ?

That is ‘destiny’ as the French are prone to say.

The military types that descended, was it ever established they were to do with the Bristish Embassy ? The Embassy involvement, easy, British number plated car would be identified within minutes, revealed to be British Iraqi owned, it doesn’t take much of a jump to believe they were targetted by who knows which ‘side’.

Everytime the press come up with something it is denied by EM, he has recently said that the fragment of gun found may not have been from the murder weapon and so on, at the outset a rare collectors piece, now rare in Brest but not 40kms from the Swiss border, doesn’t mean it’s a local crime, could have been bought or stolen. The childs testimony maybe confused, there could have been more than one gunman, there was only one baddie.

Someone doesn’t want there to be answers and I doubt they are pleased with the continued interest in what happened that day.

12-18-2012 at 15:08:49

@ Lynda

I very strongly suspect that, if there ever were “twenty military types” at the scene of the crime, they were members of the 27 Chasseurs Alpins
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/27e_bataillon_de_chasseurs_alpins
from nearby Cran-Gevrier.

Just as the UK police might get some specialist advice from the SAS if they were looking for a suspect potentially hiding out in the mountains, it would make sense for the gendarmerie to consult the Chasseurs Alpins, who know that particular area very well.

Regarding the UK Embassy in Paris, I am quite familiar with that institution – they simply *do not have* twenty crew-cut bods on site. They have a few security staff and there is this outfit
http://ukinfrance.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/working-with-france/defence/
a few houses down from the Ambassador’s Residence, but those are senior military bureaucrats.

12-18-2012 at 15:09:57

Who said that Sylvain Mollier got lost? As far as I know he was dead and the dead do not talk. So are we quoting an English newspaper again? The dead, also as far as I know, may be able to talk to us, but only through a medium or a ouija board, and no one has so far reported having been in touch with Sylvain that way.

The price of his bike. I’ve noticed how the price has been increasing. I know there is inflation in the world, but this is ridiculous.

Another thing is, anyone can get lost anywhere. I sometimes get lost in Paris, and believe me, I *know* Paris. Yet, not concentrating, I turn left when it should have been right and suddenly I find myself on a wrong road and I can be described as lost.

As for the triathlon photo. How do we know Sylvain Mollier was on it. Are we again jumping to conclusions here? Alexander’s guess is good, but I will pick the most unlikely one. So, do you see the shortish guy with the brown-greyish hair partially hidden behind another cyclist. Well, that is Sylvain Mollier. So Alex, I think you may not be able to play Sylvian in our movie.

Eugene wondered why the British police are so quiet. It’s not their case, Eugene. It’s France’s and no one wishes to step on toes. I can (and will maybe) write you a book about how the British and French did not cooperate in the assassination of Princess Diana and her lover Dodi Al Fayed.

As for the killer not having killed the Al-Hillis on their own doorstep in Claygate. Watch Estonia.

12-18-2012 at 15:27:37

@Marilyn: Re: Cooperation UK and French police
When cooperation between the French and the British police is so bad, even if they made it officially a joint case, then it makes indeed perfectly sense for a Killer X who is after SAH to kill him in France, because the likelihood that he/she is caught is then so much lower.
That was a missing piece of the puzzle as far as I remember why target SAH in France if he´s the target at all.

12-18-2012 at 15:34:02

@ Marilyn

Who said that Sylvain Mollier got lost?

EM, the man whom you elect to believe, says so:

http://www.franceinfo.fr/faits-divers/tuerie-de-chevaline-le-cycliste-etait-la-par-hasard-eric-maillaud-836799-2012-12-18

12-18-2012 at 15:37:56

@Marilyn

I believe EM said that Sylvain Mollier took the wrong route (?). Mind you EM has said many things that then get denied or worded differently.

@Peter, yes I believe it was the Alpine team as well, but a local in Chevaline said they were speaking a foreign language ! I wonder what is the make-up of the team ?

Just had a thought, if Sylvain Mollier was meeting someone at Le Martinet, who is that someone and where did they go ?

Did he intend to meet a lady friend or friends, thinking of PD, 41 and the two unidentified women. Imagine, you go out for a bike ride to meet up with someone get caught in a murder scene, end up dying, your girlfriend not only has to endure your death but the humiliation of knowing you were meeting another woman. Bet things like this have happened time and again, be it through accidents or design. Maybe one of the PD ladies have had to come clean, so EM knows that Sylvain was not the target.

Who went through Sylvains pockets ?

12-18-2012 at 16:07:59

@ Lynda

Just had a thought, if Sylvain Mollier was meeting someone at Le Martinet, who is that someone and where did they go ?

How about: a pretty girl on a motorcycle? (The idea that the biker might have been female is (c) Lars). As long as she didn’t wear skintight, canary-yellow motorcycle leathers like Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, the ONF and/or WBM might well have mistaken her for a man.

Maybe the mystery motorcyclist was not the shooter, but rather the cause of SM being shot.

12-18-2012 at 16:33:26

To flesh out that idea a little: In my opinion, the fact that SM received money from his comparatively wealthy fiancée, chose to take some time off work and temporarily live off her income, may have been cause for some resentment on the part of the Schutz family, but not a sufficient reason for murder.

However, if you combined that situation with infidelity on his part, then, I think you would have a real motive for murder. Both as a parent and as an ex-boyfriend or some such, I would feel very, very bitter indeed if young and pretty Claire threw himself on older, poorer, less well-educated SM, spoiled him rotten, bought him presents – and the b*stard then went and cheated on her (something for which SM apparently had form). *That* would be a potential motive for murder.

Perhaps it might also explain why the motorcyclist hasn’t come forward: She is a married woman.

12-18-2012 at 16:44:26

@Peter

I have never believed the motorbike seen above Martinet to be the killer and taking BM’s account as legit, the one that passed him.

But could the other bike seen by Denis Janin have been ? You often find that if a woman has a motorbike so does her partner.

12-18-2012 at 16:55:32

You often find that if a woman has a motorbike so does her partner.

Nice one, Lynda!

At first sight, it sounds absurd, but the motorcyclist seen by Janin slowly heading towards the Martinet could have been a jealous partner surreptitiously shadowing the other one, the one WBM saw. Or is that too fanciful?

12-18-2012 at 17:06:13

@ Peter
There’s a 99.9 pc chance there’s a married woman involved. And whp’s the husband then?

12-18-2012 at 17:21:10

Did Zainab ever explain what the AH’s were doing at Martinet?

Prolly yes, but ‘they’ wont tell it …

Zainabs statement could explain a lot, e.g.

- ‘My mother wanted to see it to take pictures’
- ‘My father wanted to go’
- ‘I had to pee’

3 simple sentences but it could clarify a lot. I guess the ‘investigators’ have pulled this out of Zainab but they wont share the info.

12-18-2012 at 17:26:13

OK, I will add this.

1. Here in France adultery is as every day as croissants with one’s little black coffee in the morning. A man’s value even increases with his friends and colleagues if he plays the field. May I direct you all to the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn. No one here thinks any the less of him because he has women, only because he forced himself on the hotel maid.

2. I believe the killer was the person on the motorbike.

3. Lynda wants to know where had the killer gone after the killing. He went back where he’d come from.

4. Who went through Sylvain Mollier’s pockets? Answer: the police or the paramedics. I’ve seen paramedics at an accident scene: while one is trying to establish whether there is still life, another goes through that person’s pockets and bags. People carry cards on them which identify them as diabetics, epileptics etc. I do not know if any of you have medical training (perhaps a doctor) but, if so, that person will know what I am talking about.

5. I listened to what Prosecutor Maillaud said on the link Peter provided. Peter he did not say that Sylvain Mollier got lost. He said he had made a mistake when following the instructions he had been given. So he was not lost – he was just in a place different from the one he thought he would be. So he would have known where he was and how to get back home. And how did Maillaud work this out? Sylvain’s companion’s father must have told the investigators that he had told him about a pleasant ride he could go on and had explained to him how to reach that road, but Sylvain, having been on another road, must have misunderstood his instructions.

6. RiffRaff I perfectly agree with you. France had been chosen as the country in which Saad Al-Hilli would be taken out. The British police are very very good and ‘on the ball’ and if Saad Al-Hilli had been shot in Claygate, or nearby Woking, or Weybridge, or London, the area of investigation would have been so much smaller and therefore the investigation so much easier and — successful.

12-18-2012 at 17:50:03

@Peter: Motive Killing
I perfectly agree with you that your scenario including a cheat would be sufficient for such an aggression.

@Marilyn
Thanks for your agreement with the police issue.
In terms of your point no.1 I have a different opinion. Although in social life generally for some people the “value” of a man increases with the number of female lovers, it is completely different with the people that are personally involved. In fact most of the killings that are too brutal this points to a personal relationship/violation/betrayal or the like. I find the idea that SM tried to meet a female lover (may it be on a motor bike or one of the girls with PD) for a tete a tete and that somebody close to CS got to know this and gave – in his opinion – the betrayer what he deserved quite striking. It would also pick up the argument made before in our discussion that Killer X had to kill SAH because to him his identity in the area is totally clear and his motive too, so the had to assure that his own life does not bust up too.

@all: EM strategy
Lets assume EM is not a brickhead, then we have to listen carefully when he said many weeks ago, that with “a little luck” he´ll find the motive and the killer. So, when Killer X has to cope with the new situation and he´s not a professional, then the pressure on his mind and soul will increase every day until … well, until he makes a mistake, and that is what EM is speculating on.

12-18-2012 at 17:53:58

@all: EM Strategy follow up
It just comes to my mind, that the sentence with the 10 years that it´ll take to solve the case fit perfectly in this. It singlaises to Killer X: This thing won´t be over in a couple of weeks or months, this will reign your life for the next 10 years minimum. We´ll be after you, every day, every move…

12-18-2012 at 17:54:46

should read: “signalises”

12-18-2012 at 18:25:51

@Marilyn

Affairs are commonplace, not just in France, what if you are the cuckold, ‘porter des cornes’ ? Women get beaten up for speaking to a man, let alone anything more intimate.

There is an element of society that looks upon this as a notch on a bedpost, for most, the likes of those living ordinary lives in Savoie and Haute Savoie, I doubt very much.

Le 5 à 7 exists for few, some of those the likes of the famous Valerie Trierweiler, Rachida Dati, for the rest of us – well we do indulge in affairs with maybe part of the excitement being the clandestine nature of it, for others because the partner isn’t giving out anymore.

As for DSK, most men I know are laughing at his stupidity, that was a very expensive ****, not including the money !

Molliers photo being kept away, is because he has probably been seen with the mystery woman in hotels or B&B’s as Eugene previously suggested and would be recognised as such, not M & Mme Dubois as registered and always paid cash.

I have said it before relating to this case, I’ll repeat it there is a woman out there in fear of her life, EM says he believes the gunman has killed before, he has, wild boar, chamois, stags.

Apparently Zainab has said there was shouting, or was that Zeena, either way this was personal.

12-18-2012 at 18:54:43

I’m going to jump the fence, both motorbikers came from the Jarsy side of the Col de Cherel, the first wasn’t seen as it passed by during the ‘nosebagging’ hours. This side is accessed from Ugine, Albertville, Grignon.

That means that between about midday and 2:30, people, including Denis Janin were more concerned about their food, wherever it was being eaten. Local farmer here, eats at his mother-in-laws, opposite, almost everyday, his trainee vet wife joins them. It’s a long lunch …….zzzzzzzzzzz.

The first motorbike encountered Sylvain Mollier and told him the ‘husband’ knew, whether she knew she was being followed that day, unsure. Well he had and was closer than she realised, of course she could never have imagined the results, a fight maybe a slaying of innocent holidaymakers, well innocent in this scenario, never.

12-18-2012 at 20:08:23

Peter is on a roll … great analysis.

Earlier I investigated the military training by the older generation of Schutz family & friends as listed on the Internet.

I responded many moons ago to @M. aka Max

I’m now thinking of a man no older than SM, good with motorbikes, good with guns and ‘connected’ to SM and/or CS

I did a background search of relationships before posting my last chapter. I don’t want to intrude in privacy of persons by posting names unless definitely related to the Chevaline murder case. I did send the info by mail to Marilyn Z. If you are interested, I could ask her to mail this info to you.

Hints to key elements are ski resort Belle Etoile – family members and life-long friends – military training – region Albertville/Saint Pierre d’Albigny/Chambéry and the tough, proud character of the Savoyard. See historical events at the end of WWII in 1944-1945.

Listed are links of lifelong friends to military training: 7ème Bataillon De Chasseurs Alpins en Bourg Saint Maurice. Looking at older generation of local Savoyards: military training, comrades, ski professionals, geography of environs and mountains, availability Swiss army weapons and ammo. Close enough to the 27th Mountain Infantry Battalion?
No surprise here …

12-18-2012 at 20:48:21

’6. RiffRaff I perfectly agree with you. France had been chosen as the country in which Saad Al-Hilli would be taken out.’

So …. Killer X waits for AH to go to France, and uses a ‘Luger’ to kill them off?

- What made AH go to France?
- What made AH go to Martinet?
- Why would Killer X use a ‘Luger’?
- How would Killer X know that AH went to Martinet?
- How did Killer X know that AH went to France??
- Why would AH’s take ‘happy family pictures’ minutes before their horrible deaths?
- Why beat Zainab and leave Zeena alone?
- Why wait till AH and Zainab got out?
- Why now walk up to AH and shoot him point blank?
- Why shoot SM first and last?
- Why spent so many bullets on AH and be out-of-ammo on Zainab?
- Why not kill them in their sleep in the caravan (silencer)?
- What is so special about Martinet anyway?
- Why was Killer X using a motorbike?
- Why was Killer X behind the ‘barrier’?
- Why did Killer X nearly fail the AH killings (were it not for the fact that the BMW got stuck)?
- Why all this trouble and START with shooting SM?
- IF AH was at Martinet for a ‘meeting’ (lured) WHY was he not on his guard (with Zainab outside etc.)?

You see, if you take out SM, there is a massive amout of weird questions to be answered:)

12-18-2012 at 21:04:00

Photo choices . . . . my assessment
body language says
Guy kneeling at the front is a hot babe-magnet . . oh yeah
he thinks he is and he is cocksure about it
he has whipped off his top to show well-honed shoulders
and he has managed to display his man-parts smack bang central
the French ladies will be queuing up surely

12-18-2012 at 21:13:17

@ All

Marilyn is so right in mentioning there’s no way for us identify SM on the picture I provided a link to. Even though, Alexander thought 2 candidates could be considered, and I tend to agree with him.
Another question is yet to be addressed: can we find out who is this Ms Valerie Martin who enrolled in several cycling events in Annecy county these last few years. She might also be on the photo. She might be part of the story.

@ Lynda

I agree with you. Infidelity is the most widely spread hazard to married life. Whether or not it affects men more than women, French nationals more han other people is hard to tell. On this subject, statistics ought to be handled with a bucket of salt.
But in the Chevaline story, we always tend to focus on the male players. Could be wrong way to go. We always discuss the way the French, even the Savoie people in particular behave, react. Wrong again, many people involved, victims or otherwise, are not French at all. Remember the Ian Fleming anecdote? I bet the basic reason why it remained a literary conflict was that both gentlemen were Eton people. In those circles, criminal revenge, “this simply isn’t done”.

12-18-2012 at 21:23:28

@Lynda

It was said a few years back that England has sex scandals and France has financial scandals. I think this is true still. If DSK had happened in England some of his political cronies would have had to resign. Here nothing like that. Even Hollande backed him at the beginning of the chamber maid affair and could then afterwards just shrug it away. I’m sure that if Cameron had backed an English version of DSK he would have had to go,the tabloids would have hounded him out of office. Anyway, about that payment DSK had to make to Diallo – it is being said that it was the world’s most expensive ……. (you know what) ever!

Yes, the 5 à 7 … those were the days my friend, some thought they would never end. These days Frenchmen are changing diapers at nightfall or preparing the dinner. (Changing the baby’s diapers of course and not their own ….)

President Mitterrand had a love child and the French tax payer helped keep the daughter and her mother in safe state accommodation with a round-the-clock bodyguard.

Chirac had his flings.

At least Sarkozy married his fling.

We have to go back to General de Gaulle for a man who always slept on the same side of the same bed beside the same woman.

Mais vive la France!!

@Max

I can reply to all your questions by giving you the name of a country, but I won’t.

12-18-2012 at 21:54:34

@Eugene

You point towards Brett Martin and his wife, I’ve looked up Theresa Valerie Martin, more than once, is she your Valerie Martin, I am doubtful as in France Theresa becomes Therese, is there any proof that this lady was born in France ?

Was SM mistaken for BM, certainly a possibility, after the scenrio went ridiculously astray, gunman checked SM’s pockets and realised he had the wrong man.

@J – ‘lunch box’ as we say, apparently most women do check it out ! Of course I never would, but there is one guy in that photo who is almost transparent, but of course I didn’t notice.

12-18-2012 at 22:10:06

@ Marilyn

For reasons I don’t wish to explain here – General de Gaulle remains a hero in this house.

I also understand why you MUST support EM, you are known, most of us are not, at least for the time being.

The politcal system is corrupt and will remain so as long as financial gain and power are the ‘to have’, oh for the days when politicians were of conviction.

12-18-2012 at 22:18:42

@Marilyn,

If you are with RiffRaff (and EM) on AH being the target then my last question

Why the 0,1% doubt?

12-18-2012 at 23:24:54

Only those British who read this will know of Jeremy Kyle and his paternity tests, ‘I’m 80% sure, he’s the father’.

’80%!, 80%! – so you were sleeping with someone else ?’

‘No’

Slaps forehead and throws microphone to the floor.

@Max, the 0,1% difference is his ‘get out of jail card’ (Monopoly).

12-19-2012 at 00:08:02

@Max
sorry, max, you git me wrong. I am not decided or sure about the target jet, I was simply stating that
a) EM´s communication might be rational to some extend if he is after Killer X with SM as target and that
b) IF SAH was the target it was quite elegant to commit the crime in France rather then in Britain.

At the end of the day I am walking through the mist as most of us do, although I sometimes get the feeling that some of us know substantially more then they want to reveal… strange times were people in almost complete anonymity are anxious to reveal their thoughts only because they could come close to the truth.

@all: think about that!

12-19-2012 at 01:14:58

Did you all see this?
http://www.theweek.co.uk/world-news/annecy-shootings/50638/al-hilli-massacre-cyclist-was-embroiled-inheritance-row#

Sylvain Mollier involved in inheritance dispute.
He was not just on paternity leave but negotiated for 3 years’ leave?

12-19-2012 at 01:35:36

@NileQueen

Peter above had provided link, see his post at 12-17-2012 at 11:08:41.

The inheritance issue was discussed when it was found out Thierry Schutz had sold the Grignon pharmacy to daughter Clair last year. Lynda had some great posts in earlier diaries.

12-19-2012 at 09:06:54

@Nile Queen – Are you no longer stoned? (You will understand what I mean.)

Both Lynda and Eugene explained how inheritance laws work here in France. The short of it is: inheritance tax is so enormous that parents/grandparents/etc ‘donate’ property/money/etc to someone while still alive. This was what happened in this case.

@Max

Nothing is ever 100% certain. Not even a marriage.

@Lynda

I can make a guess about General de Gaulle. To me too he was a hero.

I always say that just three Frenchmen got the French to fight for what they believed and believed in. Joan of Arc, Napoleon and General de Gaulle. And Napoleon was Corsican and Joan of Arc was a woman. So where does that leave France.

Napoleon is another hero of mine.

As for Jeanne … she sure had guts.

12-19-2012 at 11:37:54

@Marilyn

Napoleon is one of mine too, I was so moved by the sarcophagus in Invalides, and the story of the stones and geraniums in the garden.

The laws in marble around the room, marvellous stuff.

12-19-2012 at 12:22:00

@Lynda

I plan to visit Saint Helena. I have an idea for an Agatha Christie type thriller about Napoleon and Saint Helena. I’ve had it in my head now for *so* long. I would however have to see Saint Helena and Napoleon’s house for myself.

Another moving moment on your next trip to Paris will be a visit to the Pantheon. I went there yesterday for the umpteenth time to pay my respects to Madame Curie and her husband Pierre, and to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Emile Zola, Alexandre Dumas, Victor Hugo, Louis Braille and Resistance hero Jean Moulin. I always stand for a few moments at Madame Curie’s tomb, my hand resting on it. We owe that woman *so* much.

12-19-2012 at 12:58:56

@ Marilyn

Did you see my e:mail about Alexandre Dumas and the Chateau Monte Christo ?

I haven’t been to the Pantheon, put it on the list to accompany the Catacombs !

Another place I found emotional was the graves of Vincent and his brother Theo in Auvers sur Oise, just simple headstones covered in ivy.

12-19-2012 at 13:26:04

The key to solving this riddle, I believe, lies in answering the question why both SM and the AHs were killed. Let’s look at some explanatory hypotheses.

1. SM and SAH were killed because they were both involved in the same nefarious activity, which somebody was desperate to stop.

2. There was an element of deliberate misdirection involved. The killer was really only after SM, but killed a few random bystanders as well, in order to make the murders look like the handiwork of a madman.

3. There was an element of deliberate misdirection involved. The killer was really only after the AHs, but killed a random passer-by as well, in order to make the murders look like the handiwork of a madman.

4. The murders really were the handiwork of a madman, who had spent some time lurking in the undergrowth, clad in camouflage clothing, and struck when he had the chance to kill the maximal number of victims.

5. Blind rage. Something – perhaps SM meeting a female motorcyclist, perhaps an earlier altercation between the AHs and another camper at the camping site, perhaps a near-accident caused by SAH leading to road rage – so enraged the killer that he killed everybody in sight.

6. SM knew the killer, and when he saw the killer at that remote spot to which TS, of whose deep resentment he was well aware, had directed him on that day, SM suddenly realized that TS had hatched a plot to have him assassinated. Thus, the killer had no option but to go through with the plan, even though there were a bunch of unplanned-for tourists at the Martinet. Once he had started shooting SM, he felt that he had to eliminate all eyewitnesses.

Of all those, only 5 and 6 make any sense to me. The “misdirection” idea is elegant, but it presupposes that the killer would have known beforehand that both parties would be present at that particular time in that particular spot. Besides, if the idea was to kill SM and make it look like the handiwork of a nutter, there would have been an easier way: Use your highly distinctive Luger-type pistol to assassinate a local cyclist in his forties. A few weeks later, while the police are still trying to figure out the motive for the first murder, kill SM in exactly the same manner – “Aha, there is a nutter out there, driven by an insane hatred of cyclists”.

12-19-2012 at 13:28:38

@Lynda

Yes, I meant to tell you that I will be visiting the Chateau Monte Christo.

Ah! Auvers sur Oise. Also a favourite of mine. I *always* cry when I see Vincent’s little room and when I sit and watch the video they play. People with me can never understand why I cry, but Vincent is another hero of mine. I then always walk to his grave and that of Theo to have another cry. I’ve just been to the Van Gogh expo here in Paris at the Pinacotheque which was another moving moment. Have you read Vincent’s letters to Theo?

When you come to Paris, and you have the time, you and I can do a good cemetery visit. That of Getrude Stein and her lover Alice B.Toklas in Pere Lachaise is also a grave I go to often.

Of course the Catacombs is extraordinary. I photographed a spirit there – a tall thin figure in a floor-length black coat. I swear he was not there when I aimed the camera and the friend who was with me that day also said that he had not seen anyone dressed like that that day. It was a warm September day and the visitors were not in coats.

12-19-2012 at 14:03:04

@Marilyn

I’m glad you’ll visit Monte Christo, I’ll bring the book with me for you to read.

Yes, the Auberge with the museum, we ate there and spent a night in the Hotel de la Gare, in the Van Gogh room, the window of which looks at the night lit church.

Were you aware that the Auberge was used in the filming of A Very Long Engagement ?

Did you go to the Absinthe museum ? One of the spoons was used in the film Dracula, the posters and stories of The Green Fairy are astonishing!

I’m a Pisces, are you ? I have also experienced some very strange phenomena.

@Peter

If the AH’s were assassinated by a paid gunman, he did not need to kill or overkill SM, because he would be out of there and nobody would know who he was. I can understand a shot to the body to put him down, unable to alert the emergency services, but 7 shots in two volleys, just doesn’t add up. This man has no trouble sleeping, it was a job.

Turn that around, SM was the target by someone from the community, as Marilyn said the killer went back to where he came from, to me that would be home. No choice but to dispose of all witnesses. I doubt this man rests easy in his bed.

12-19-2012 at 14:06:12

Symbolism: Killing Beyond the Route de Moulin near Chevaline

Resistance hero Jean Moulin entered the prefectural administration as chef de cabinet to the deputy of Savoie in 1922, then as sous-préfet of Albertville, from 1925 to 1930.

Wasn’t the Operation Martinet a resistance style semi-professional botched affair? Which family has roots in the French military in the Savoie?

12-19-2012 at 14:24:20

@Lynda

Aries. Determined. Never surrender. Lynda, the day we meet, I will tell you about my ‘strange’ experiences.

I always only make a day trip to Auvers sur Oise, and, yes, I did once have lunch at the auberge’s resto.

@Oui

Speaking about Jean Moulin, we also have to speak of his torturer – Klaus Barbie.

barbie

If you are interested in this side of French history, then you would also find a visit to the Pantheon a rewarding experience.

12-19-2012 at 16:14:45

chevaline not okay

Something amusing. It’s okay to kill people, but not to kill horses.

12-19-2012 at 21:33:33

My original proposition was that the targets were not AH but that he and his family were collateral damage has not been rebutted. I am disappointed.
The most that seems to have been offered is a comment by Marilyn of ‘watch estonia’ whatever that means and a proposition by RiffRaff that it is easier to murder AH in France than the UK (and get away with it!). That may or maynot apply to local residents but it would raise some very serious logistical problems should the motive originate from the UK.
I find the questions posed by Max to be constructive and objectively sound. Like mine they have not been rebutted. It does not follow that because AH was not the target then it must be SM. There are other options including the homicidal maniac loose in the woods where both (or neither) were pre-planned.
I again repeat my thrust of my arguement. If the target was AH then the motive would have originated in the UK (where he has been resident for most of his life). Unless it is being suggested that the origin of the murder is not UK (I thought we had buried the ideas of an Iraqi/Mossad/Iranian hit squad). The killer would have had to travel to France at very short notice (For reasons previously stated concerning the children’s schooling). Such movements are traceable for the reasons given and which no-one has challenged me on.
The only other option I can think of is that AH so outraged someone in France that they followed him to this location and settled the score. It does seem a rather over-the-top response for a minor arguement about car-parking at the camp-site!
As it happens and purely by coincidence I was in France during the critical time (albeit in the Charente) and as a tourist its just one of those things that you tend to notice cars bearing your home country number-plates, particularly so out of high-season. If he was followed (even part of the way) up to that fateful location, I think he would have noticed. From the information given about the happy reassuring photos, he clearly had not prior concerns.
If I have tread on any toes with my views and suggestions then I apologise in advance. I do not suffer with any nationalistic approach to crime detection and if it turned out that the killer was from the UK, well thats just another one that should have been hanged with all the others enjoying themselves at Her Majesties Hotels.
Perhaps I might make an entry regarding the different approaches by the British and French Investigators with the general public as I view it from the previous logs and my own experience, (strictly non-partisan) but thats for another day.
Again, thank you for some interesting points and propositions.

12-19-2012 at 22:50:30

@Kevin

Hello again!

Travelling to France from the UK is not a problem as you will surely know. Setting off for the Continent from the UK can be done in the minutes it takes to get to an airport or to St Pancras in Ldn for the Eurostar.

However, the idea or order – whichever – to get over to France might have originated in the UK but this would not mean that the killer was British and resident in the UK. But say he was, and say that this was an assassination, then having had to set off for France at a very short notice would not have been a problem. Such assassins, like journalists I must add, are always prepared for immediate set off. They do not have to find something who will feed the goldfish or the cat or the dog because someone from ‘the office’ will do so, and they always have a suitcase packed as the Russians used to in the time of Stalin when the secret police could bang on the door at any moment of the day or night to cart them off.

If you’ve been following the comments you will know that mine is a lone voice here in speaking of Saad Al-Hilli as the target. I have changed my mind about this several times over these past three months, but each time I return to my original view: Saad Al-Hilli had to be taken out and it had to be done before he returned to the UK. Unfortunately, for Sylvain Mollier he cycled up and … well … he had to suffer the same fate.

I have to say that I may be totally wrong.

Of course you are not treading on toes here with your comment. We all find the views of others interesting. So, do let us hear from you about your views on the modus operandi of the French investigators as opposed to that of the British.

12-19-2012 at 23:06:29
12-20-2012 at 08:59:45

@Kenneth Sorensen

I will keep your comment on the site for a few more hours so that the other commentators can read it, but then I will delete it.

I do not tolerate anyone speaking about any country the way you did.

You have NO proof that Israeli agents had carried out the Chevaline massacre.

Take your anti-Israeli rhetoric elsewhere, please.Thank you.

12-20-2012 at 09:35:53

@all Zainab evidence:
I am still wondering why we do not hear more on the information that zainab must have been given to the police. At least the motivation for the SAH family to be at Martinet should be memorable by her and would give us new hints as somebody proposed here before.

@ Kenneth : Double cheat
cutting out the mentioning of your mid east ideas, I am thinking about the double agent thing. Indeed: What if both SM and SAH were tricked to get to Martinet – maybe with different stories – to get them out of somebodies way. We still would have to search for a motive to do so. What clearly speaks against such a scenario is, that it is very complex. Many things can go wrong. People can be late, others can be around, wittnesses can be near. So that sounds not very likely to me. Turning that argument around it makes the place (lay-by) random. The killer had followed one of the targets (so now SM or SAH) for sometime either open (e.g. if SM knew the killer, or even cyceled with him to Martinet – we do not know if he was alone) or in stealth mode and took his chance when he assumed nobody was looking or when he got in rage for some reason.

12-20-2012 at 10:11:19

I have now trashed another two comments of Kenneth Sorensen and I will not publish anything further from him.

And my bloody name is Marilyn!

12-20-2012 at 10:30:44

And my bloody name is Marilyn!

Good morning, Marilyn. Please go easy on the caffeine …

@ Kevin
Far from “rebutting” your arguments – which I don’t think anybody here is in a position to do, because the ability to do so presupposes knowledge of the facts – I, for one, wholly agree with them. If somebody had *merely* wanted to kill SAH, the easiest and most natural thing to do would have been to shoot him on his doorstep. Mutatis mutandis, the same goes for SM. That is why, to clarify my own thinking, I reframed the question as: Why kill both?

12-20-2012 at 11:09:41

@ all:
I’ve tried to find some family background on M. le procureur E. Maillaud.
So far, I didn’t find anything useful. Does anybody know, if there’s a CV about him? Source? Is he married? Does he have bros or sis?

so, what I’ve just found ist that here:

http://ghirardini.blogspot.ch/2012_09_01_archive.html

What do you think about that?

12-20-2012 at 11:30:56

Before it’s too late, let me offer seasonal greetings. First, a Happy Mayan Doomsday Day to all who booked tickets on the spaceship. Sincere condolences for the rest of us.

If we survive that, a Very Merry Christmas and Joyeux Noël to those who celebrate that occasion and Happy Winter Holidays to those who do not.

For those who are a dismayed by the festivities and excesses of the season, though I do not share your sentiments I understand them and will join you in one, and only one, Bah Humbug!

12-20-2012 at 11:40:23

@Peter

Hello Peter! Should that not be champagne instead of caffeine? I mean it’s Cmas and bubbly time!!

The man who I have now banished, did, in one of his comments I had trashed, call me ‘Mary’ (in inverted commas like that) with reference to religion. He also called me a Zionist and part of the Zionist lobby and he made reference to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being killed by Israel which he did not call Israel but by other names.

So he had to go.

@All

Just to put the record straight: Marilyn is my first name given to me by my parents, and my surname, which is on this site and this comment and on everything I write, has been given to me by my husband, and the Z represents my maiden surname in honour of my parents who are no longer alive but who brought me up well, and to always respect others.

My religion (or lack of it) … whatever … is no one’s business and certainly not for a commentator to make insulting remarks about.

12-20-2012 at 11:41:10

@Mrs. Nitribitt

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing it with us.

We have had quite a few cases here in France of police corruption – unfortunately.

12-20-2012 at 11:53:39

@NR

I wish you a happy Festive Season too.

I’ve already eaten enough chocolates for the taste to remain with me all through 2013.

PS: I intend to survive 12.21.12 by the way …

So see you at the other side of it!

12-20-2012 at 12:04:52

With the new info about the alleged financial disputes of CS’s family and SM, has anyone considered that the family might have engaged BM to tail SM and find out what he was up to?

Or even SM’s ex-wife could do this, if there were questions about SM’s income in regard to child support payments one way or the other, she might suspect he was living large yet claiming to the family court he was on leave from work and had minimal income.

It’s an explanation for BM’s shock and panic when he comes upon the murders.

12-20-2012 at 12:39:50

@ Marilyn
I can easily understand your anger at having your blog used for pathetic antisemitic rants. These do not need any extra limelight, they already have plenty. On another note, the concept of “reason of state” is always inadequately apprehended. Assuming the Chevaline killings actually were decided and performed by secret services of any nation (be it Israel, Iraq, Iran, Estonia or you-name-it), they should still be viewed as the deed of individuals who remain primarily accountable for their actions, even if “following orders”. This to me is a basic ethical rule. Under the worst regimes our world has ever known, there have been many people who resisted evil, and often with their own life at stake. Vice versa, crimes are always committed by individuals, who always are responsible for them. Do we agree on this? Now if beside his basic prejudice that person aka Kenneth holds any specific piece of information to support his claim, why doesn’t he produce it?

@ All
As of now, I no longer think these killings were a “professional” hit. Had it been, and whoever the initial target may have been (SAH, SM or both), there couldn’t have been 2 “blunders” in the same time: the unnecessary abundance of shots on SM, and the near-miss on SAH as shown by his backing up the BMW while breathing his last. One mistake can be the result of contingencies, not two, even if there actually were collateral targets.
Hence, I believe there was a planned, “well organized” murder intended, by person or persons unknown, who eventually lost control of the situation because of unforeseen circumstances. I also believe SM must have been the designated target, otherwise SAH and his family would have been dealt with in a more “efficient” manner. Meanwhile, the recent leaks about money/inheritance issues between SM and his partner’s family do not look significant to me. Nor his position at his company, that probably didn’t imply access to top-secret info or materials. Probably something more personal, thus more pungent.
But then, I know I can be totally wrong. Because we lack all that was retrieved from factual evidence, and here at least this raises political issues. Which are usually the trickiest things in the world, until tomorrow of course.

12-20-2012 at 13:13:09

I’m not even going to mind EM unless he gives a proper explanation. Oh and a 99,9% is NOT a proper explanation:)

To me:

Why the AH’s where at Martinet?

Simple. They were ‘sightseeing’. Cruising a bit, taking pictures, going on a road (Combe d’Ire) to see what’s up there. Hitting the barrier. ‘Come on Zainab, lets see what the sign says’ says AH. Both get out.

… as said. Simple. I like to keep it simple. THIS is simple and no EM will make me think otherwise unless he comes up with the ‘goods’

So, why was SM at Martinet?

Simple. He was doing some biking. He wanted to do some nice climbing and this climb to Martinet is a good workout. As said. Simple. I like to keep it simple and no EM will make me think otherwise unless he comes up with the ‘goods’

Ok, but you will say ‘Hey Max, what happened, why the killing?’

Simple. I like to keep it simple.

For Killer X (whoever he/she is) it is EASY to target SM (because there were several ppl who did know what he was going to do, route, etc.) but it is near IMPOSSIBLE to say the same about the AH’s.

All facts up to now point to:

- SM was on a ‘planned’ route
- AH was randomly cruising around

So … to ‘target’ somebody at Martinet … the SM option is much more favourable! Now, for some mysterious reason, EM decides AGAINST the simpleness of things. And of course will prolly meet a ‘deadend’ when ‘AH as target’ will fail and he has to default to his last option, the ‘nutter’. And he wont find that ‘nutter’ because there is no (need for) a nutter.

Killer X is to be found in the circle of SM!

(of course EM can use this 0,1% to solve the case and state ‘well, we always were open to ALL options’)

EM is hiding something. I dunno why. Example, he is hiding where (location) BM supposedly ‘saw’ SM. He is hiding where ONF ‘saw’ motorbiker. But he is quite easy to give the ‘AH picture’ details (15.15 reference). So why is he hiding SM facts. And why is there a ‘SM wall of silence’?

Of course the french tax payers, pay EM to ‘solve the crime’. And I think EM probably/hopefully will solve it. But my money is on ‘circle SM’:) (and my view hasn’t changed for a pretty long time now, because there simply is NO NEED to change my view)

- M

12-20-2012 at 14:15:16

@ Max

Completely agree, he is trying to smoke someone out, although why he thinks it’s okay to trash one family and not another is poor management.

@ Marilyn

You will see your man Kenneth uses the same Gravatar on Craig Murray, I really couldn’t care less about his mutterings, the real offence is the photo of the deceased Frederic Brun, 35 from Ugine, killed when a car left the road in the mountains on the 29th September.

It is a strange case as he was in the rear seat of a green Pajero, the driver and front passenger jumped to safety when all four tyres were off the ground. For those interested, the story is in Le Dauphine, his nickname was ‘Brindille’ – twiggy, which he so obviously wasn’t, but that is the nature of nicknames.

A while back I posted a video of him from about 6 years ago.

12-20-2012 at 14:43:02

@Max, Lynda
I agree too, EM has a strange approach to smoke somebody out. I wouldn´t be surprised, if he knows his favorite for Killer X within the SM circle and his agents shadow this person 24/7 to find reliable evidence and destroy an presumably given alibi. (I am increasing the pressure too ;-) )

12-20-2012 at 15:10:06

I post my link from this morning here again.
May be the native speaker could tell the non-french-speaker (or less…..)
what’s exactly about.

This man is not EM’s best friend- that’s quite obvious.
So please take a look at that- there’s even more to find if you google.
Looking forward to hearing why this man is so “furious”.

http://ghirardini.blogspot.ch/2012_09_01_archive.html

I was hoping Marylin would have to say something about.

12-20-2012 at 15:12:26

The prosecutor said 10 years. I think it may well be 10 years. He, as well as all the investigators, must be laughing at us. Yet, we must on occasion come near to the truth. If not the truth.

Of course, a good way to get the killer to relax and drop his guard is to say ‘we do not have a clue about what had gone on that day on that lay-by’.

12-20-2012 at 15:14:34

@Mrs Nitribitt

Give me a while longer, and I will come back about this. I really appreciate you sharing it with us.

12-20-2012 at 15:18:18

@Marilyn

‘Of course, a good way to get the killer to relax and drop his guard is to say ‘we do not have a clue about what had gone on that day on that lay-by’.’

And that goes for whomever the killer is and whomever the real target was.

12-20-2012 at 16:14:27

‘He, as well as all the investigators, must be laughing at us.’

Errrm, Marilyn, the guy (EM) is burning tax payers money like crazy. I would not know of any reason why he, or his co-investigators, should be ‘laughing’

If I hand over a 500 piece puzzle to my kids, take out 100 pieces and put in 100 OTHER pieces … and then ‘start laughing’ at my kids … that is sad.

… what WILL happen though is that once the kids find out they:

1. Do not trust anymore
2. Loose interest

Well, both 1. and 2. are in place for me:) (I wont spill a tear for Zainab and Zeena, cant help them, but EM should! … but ‘laughing’? C’mon)

- M

12-20-2012 at 16:18:57

@Max

My tax money is being wasted every day.

They are laughing at our guesses. That is what I meant.

I did say, did I not, that our guesses may be right, did I not?

12-20-2012 at 16:24:53

@Mrs. Nitribitt

I have now paged over it. There is no connection with the All-Hilly case.

12-20-2012 at 16:42:33

@All

For more than three months now you have been commenting here.

I think you will agree with me that we never argued, we never insulted one another, and we always respected each other’s views.

I have noticed that this has changed these past two or so weeks. There is a leaning towards snapping at a commentator when his or her sense of humour is not grasped or appreciated, or when one does not agree with him or her. We used to joke so pleasantly together about the film we were going to make: that sadly now seems to be something of the past.

Are you all somewhat tired of this case?

If this is so, then I prefer to close comments.

There has been a very bad episode here today. A man named Kenneth Sorenson from Denmark made very derogatory remarks about the United States of America and Israel. In a follow-up comment he also attacked me as ‘an American’ and a ‘Zionist’ and part of the ‘American Zionist lobby’. All of this day he continued to post insulting comments. I did not know this morning when he first posted a comment that he comes from Craig Murray’s site and that he had caused trouble there too. Each of his insulting comments came bearing a different name.

I have now set this comment blog so that I have to approve every comment. I am a busy person and I do not have time to do so. I am sure that it is also inconvenient for you because you would like to see your comment appear immediately. I’ve noticed that during the night a real conversation takes places. Of course, now that I have to approve every comment, this will no longer be possible.

I tell Kenneth Sorenson now that if he continues to harass me and stalk me, I will go to the police. I have his isp number and the police will be very interested to speak to him in what is a continuing investigation into the murder of 4 people and the attempted murder of a minor under the age of fifteen. So, Mr.Sorenson, you watch it, buddy!!

I am not going to name names here but I will say that I enjoyed hearing the views of so many people from so many different walks of life and nationalities.

HOWEVER, it is up to you all whether I keep comments open.

12-20-2012 at 16:52:21

@Mrs. Nitribitt
12-20-2012 at 15:10:06

He’s certainly not EM’s No 1 fan!

There are some musings on CM about a certain other M. Maillaud. Don’t know whether they’re connected, but all very curious!

12-20-2012 at 19:16:23

@Marilyn,

A good forum needs ‘moderation’ you are the perfect moderator. Anyone NOT obeying to your standards should be kick permanantly, even, when needed without any further ‘explanation’.

Dont waste precious time and energy on what is known as ‘trolls’. It is YOUR forum/blog. You are the boss, YOU set the rules.

I have noticed your change of attitude. No humor. It is a well known ‘result’ of the tiresome business of ‘runnning a forum’.

Although I might sound a bit irritated towards EM and ‘his progress’, I certainly have not lost my respect towards this forum and you (Marilyn)

But I feel the need to express what I personally think of this case. In short … My view (based on only a few facts) has NOT changed. SM as target, the motorbiker as Killer X.

The only thing I’m waiting for is for EM to either catch the killer along ‘my’ lines or debunk my ideas. I have NOT seen either.

Therefor I have not much to add to the forumtalk at this moment. I’m no person for filling this forum with ‘smalltalk’ … My attention goes in other directions. But this has nothing to do with the highest of respect I have for you AND this forum!

(PS, I did ‘crack’ the DSK case long before anyone was thinking along those lines … of course now ‘everybody’ says he/she knew what happened, but the first few days/weeks even months? Nope … but I was surprisingly right. Not because I am perfect … no … I just used some logic instead of emotions. In the Chevaline case I have the same feeling, although not that firm. It is a complex case, but I have my view. What EM says or does is not important for me. I just stick to facts and logic. Btw, the DSK case … just look it up. You know where to find what I said about that case)

- Max

12-20-2012 at 19:36:37

@Max

Thank you Max for your kind words.

I will read up what you said about the DSK case.

Chevaline … DSK … you must agree with me that when we do something here in France we make sure we do it all the way and not just half of the way.

If I know the French then nothing will happen about Chevaline until into 2013. When I was a child and we were promised something which took a while happening, we always said ” … and Christmas is also coming …” Can’t say it now, can I, because Christmas really is coming!!

If it’s possible I will remove the approve order on the forum tomorrow which will mean that your comments will appear when you post them. Therefore, if you think of something to say about the case or about anything else please do not think that you will be a nuisance because we will be busy eating roasted turkey, grilled chevaline, plum pudding and what not, and we would not want to read what you have to say. Come right on and share your thoughts with us.

OK?

12-20-2012 at 19:56:09

@ Marilyn:

Kenneth Sörensen is a sad *peeep* !

I kept my humour!

You do whatever you want to do – even authorizing every comment — it clearly hinders discussion — but anyway – you’re the boss!

If you leave comments open to appear directly in the blog, even better.

Worst would be if you’d close the discussion.

I am not tired.

It’s just nothing happens and we’re turning in circles.

Anyway, I appreciate you guys very much.

Plus, I’ve never forgot the idea of our class reunion + the film!

@ La Comtessa:

It was a link by either Lynda or George who provided insight into Eric Maillaud (girl friend is Italian etc. pp.).

If you don’t find it here, I’ll look it up for you.

12-20-2012 at 21:58:48

@Alexander

I thought I might now no longer qualify for playing head of the Gendarmerie in your film. You know … me not being of the right stuff according to the *peeep*. You have no idea how much I am looking forward to putting Killer X into handcuffs. But have you yet decided who will play him?

12-20-2012 at 22:07:15

I don’t remember who wanted to play the killer?

It was rva524, wasn’t it him?

12-20-2012 at 22:12:11

@Alex

Must it be one of the commentator? Can’t you ask Dan Craig if he won’t be our Killer X. I would *love* to put him in handcuffs.

12-20-2012 at 22:56:36

Should any of you, our commentators, leave a comment from now to tomorrow morning it will go into the pending folder. Sorry about this. Tomorrow is another day, and tomorrow … well tomorrow we will see.

12-20-2012 at 23:03:19

I don’t remember who wanted to play the killer?

Take a good look at the short, bald man in the expensive suit in that video:
http://www.gaskrank.tv/tv/motorrad-schule/abzocke-in-ebay-gebotsabschirm-10826.htm

That is your killer, that is me, and I will keel anybody who disagrees. Sorry, folks, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles ;-)

12-20-2012 at 23:25:12

As a recent addition to this little group I have heartilly enjoyed the views expressed and information given and would wish to be associated with Max regarding his appreciation of Marilyn.

12-20-2012 at 23:28:25

@ Marilyn
I too hope you’ll keep the forum open. Does your administrator’s control allow you to block by ISP number? That might help, unless people have multiple ISPs or even use proxies to create a new ISP each time.

For those that have not visited http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ Craig Murray is a former UK diplomat and his discussions are largely related to the Middle East and the Palestinian cause, so anti-Israeli or anti-Zionist tirades are more tolerated there, though the moderators try to control pure anti-Semitism.

Other than the al Hilli discussion, which is free-wheeling and so far, a bit of fun, and which just passed 10,000 remarks on the current thread (plus 8,000 on previous ones), the other discussions have comments by one side or the other that are devoted to their theory in a religious manner and they take an evangelical posture in trying to convert unbelievers, and the unconverted are declared Satan or at least disinfo agents.

David Icke is even more far-ranging conspiracy theories on all subjects, and some people who post there are blocked from Craig Murray. One person persisted in posting long, long pages at CM as a back-up archive to his posts at Icke in the event the authorities shut down Icke and his info would be lost to posterity. He was quite perturbed when he was finally blocked.

12-20-2012 at 23:47:13

@ Marilyn @ all

For humour, I posted something at CM re the cows that expanded on a remark here by Marilyn.
In reply to “bluebird” who said:
““Mr Brun aka Skull kid – warning, just coincidence. What is a skull kud. It is a Nintendo game. http://zeldawiki.org/Skull_Kid – Lives in lonely forest. No face, wears the head of a cow sometimes (dead cow?)””

I said: “Marilyn, over at marilynztomlins.com said, we thought jokingly, that in the pic of the cows on the road surrounding the press cars, that one of the cows in the center, looking straight at the camera, looked very suspicious and could be the shooter. But she didn’t put a smiley face on her remark.”

“What if the shooter escaped in a cow costume – they could make them better these days, photorealistic – but he or she would need an accomplice to run one end or the other. Or maybe it was animatronic and the shooter just rode inside. We are all looking for 4x4s and motorbikes and the shooter escaped inside a cow!”

“On Masonic signs: #1 = pointing of the index finger in a photograph. My computer has Masonic signs built right in. Whenever the cursor crosses a link, it changes to a hand with the index finger pointing straight up!”

From the Masonics and the Illuminati, we of course connected the Rothschilds, who as everyone knows, rule the world, and are closely connected to the Haute Savoie, where they not only vacation, but own five gourmet restaurants.

12-21-2012 at 00:03:11

@Max

No emotions ? Only to things you are detached from, surely, you’ve said it here you feel nothing towards Zainab and Zeena.

You work on logic and an elegant solution, intuition can be a very powerful force, it lurks in our minds and offers us an element of defence, mostly learned from previous experience.

As for DSK, nobody forced him in the recently settled USA case or in the ‘fine’ parties, he is a man with a big ego but probably a small ‘ferrari’, so he was always trying to prove himself and he was in such a position of power he could endulge. I hope he is kept well out of the political arena.

By the way I am also known for my logic, many find it infuriating when I am always right, I have the advantage of being female and therefore possess intuition and imagination, and we musn’t forget patience, often seen in women …..

12-21-2012 at 04:04:25

Hi Marilyn & all,
I have been reading all your comments since day one. I am an Iraqi/ Canadian and I was so saddened about the case particularly Zainab/Zeena and always think about them. Your analysis of the crime has showed me that people care and I truly appreciate all of you.
Plz do not be upset about the troll.In this life’s journey we tend to meet the good, the bad and the ugly and he is definitely the ugly of this forum.
Plz do not close comments until the murderer is caught. This is our commitment to Saad/ his family and Mollier. I will continue following up this case and I honestly do not have a clue on what happened that sad day. All I know is that those poor girls were left with life time scars and with no loving parents. The whole case is as clear as mud and we have to continue “guessing” which might lead us somewhere.
Thanks again for all your efforts and Merry Christmas to all.
Zainab

12-21-2012 at 09:18:52

Morning everyone on this 21st of December 2012.

I just approved your comments and will comment myself in a moment.

First some caffeine, Herr Dr Peter Stein!

12-21-2012 at 09:28:52

@Marilyn : re: Forum
You´re doing an excellent job. Actually I haven´t stuck to a forum this long my whole life and that is because of you, your tremendous work and all the excellent commentators who tweak their brains everyday to find Killer X. I am proud to be part of the discussion and would love – if you keep the forum open – to further contribute to the solution of this case.

12-21-2012 at 09:47:15

@RiffRaff & @NR & @Lynda & @Alexander & @Kevin & @Peter and @Max – and I hope I have mentioned you all who commented overnight or early this morning – for expressing your support of this forum and condemnation of the troll.

@Zainab

Thank you for looking in and saying hello. What we all hope is that Killer X will be arrested *very* soon. Do come back.And Happy Cmas to you too.

@Peter

Ahha! I once said (or rather, I am always saying) that there is no man more elegant than a Frenchman in a suit. I now stand corrected after having watched your video. Thanks for outing yourself. I understand a wish for anonymity but it is very pleasant to see someone one has been talking to for more than three months. I now have lots of other questions to ask you but I will respect your privacy and won’t. I will however ask you this? You can be our killer, for sure, but you realise that I would have to handcuff you? I will be tender with you, I promise.

@Lynda

‘Ferrari’ that’s a new one for me! He is more likely an old Deux Cheveaux.

@NR

I do not know how to type a smiley. I’ve been seeing that you all do add them,but I am unable to do so.

@All

Now let us go onwards … This is always what a publisher tells me when he rejects one of my manuscripts — onwards and upwards. But a London publisher is soon going to bring out my serial killer book as an e-book and then a while later as a paperback.

12-21-2012 at 10:28:24

@ Dr. Peter Stone:

You are a natural talent! They must have cut out most of your scenes!

@ Marilyn:

I have a new one for the sound track!

After

Edi Amin – “German Lugers”

now

The Browning – “No Escape”!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Zj3ZuKf7w

12-21-2012 at 10:37:33

@Alexander

Sounds great.

What about ‘I believe I can fly’? Non?

12-21-2012 at 10:42:50

Peter, we discussed the ebay scam with my wife (we have two computers + two ebay accounts) and we just didn’t get it.

Why does one need a second offer (in this example the 905 € for the Toshiba)?

The first offer of 900 € already iself alone effectively “covers” the offer against all other offers?

Plus, if all other users wouldn’t have deliberately stopped offering at around 315 € but instead tried up to, let’s say, 450 €, the student could’ve never gotten the Toshiba for 317 € but instead would’ve paid 452 € which is a reasonable price and therefore no bargain anymore?

Alex

P.S. I always use Biet-O-Matic. Works wonders.

12-21-2012 at 10:46:48

“I believe I can fly” is great.

I don’t like that kind of music but here at the Cartier’s we know every line from “Space Jam” by heart in German and French, so every song from the movie is okay with me.

“I believe I can fly” is, of course, about basketball.

:)

12-21-2012 at 10:48:43

@Alex
you need to understand how the bid-assistant works. the check if somebody has a higher bid is only performed once. that´s why you need in fact 3 bids. One real bid (the one you want to succeed in the end) and to overpriced very high bids. the first high bid will cause the bid assistant to supersede your original bid, the second will trigger the overpriced bid. Then you need to cancel the overpriced bids within an hour but close to the ending of the offer. voila!

12-21-2012 at 10:48:56

@Marilyn Z.

Appreciate your hospitality and fortitude in these sad times of grief brought on children of the world. Not only the children in this murder case, but we have also touched on the Sandy Hook massacre. I do appreciate to participate here on the blog for a while longer beyond this date 21.12.2012 and be part of a new era with (hopefully) less evil on planet Earth. It’s should be the messenger of 25.12.0000 and the millions of religious and spiritual leaders and followers to engrave the golden rule into their hearts.

@Zainab

Appreciate your comment and presence reading this blog which in itself is a strong argument to persevere in any and all attempts to find a motive and killer X. With Zainab/Zeena and Louis/Léo/Mathis in mind, I hope that they will find comfort, warmth and love from their close family members during these end of days … of the year 2012. Iqbal al-Saffar a delightful woman

Seasons Greetings to All and pls. show fortitude in all your endeavors.

12-21-2012 at 10:50:19

@all: bids
of course this is illegal and therefore I do not recommend trying this. I personally use a legal ebay sniper http://www.gixen.com
Works fine for me.

12-21-2012 at 11:10:14

@Oui

Thank you. We will continue to try to get Killer X brought to justice.

Seasons Greetings to you to. Thanks for the youtube …

This ‘shop’ is remaining open, so whenever you feel like looking in to shop.

12-21-2012 at 11:11:02

@Alexander

re: I believe I can fly

For me it is about so much more than basketball …

12-21-2012 at 11:23:57

@ RiffRaff and Peter:

I think I understood something. The 905 € offer put the price to 900 € so everybody stopped bidding, is it?

And then when you withdraw the 900 € bid, the 905 € kicks in at any price higher than the second-highest bid, I get it, which in this case would be 317 €.

But what if nevertheless another ebay user drives the *second highest* bid up to a reasonable price of, let’s say, 450 €, then the 905 € bid would kick in at 452 € and you wouldn’t have made a bargain?

12-21-2012 at 11:29:36

Sorry, I meant “the 905 € offer put the price to *902* €” or to whatever 900 € + the step in bidding defined in the offer are.

12-21-2012 at 11:30:18

@ Marilyn
Why, thank you, he purred … “Dr Peter Stein” is not quite my real name (using one’s real name is not a particularly bright idea when tangling with organized criminals, which those Estonians are), but at least now you know what Killer X in your film will look like.

@ Alexander
Coming from a professional, that is high praise indeed. In total, they shot about an hour’s worth of footage of me for this report, and they cut it into several different versions, which were broadcast in different shows. This one is the shortest, but it was the only one that I could find on the Internet.

Let’s not turn this into an eBay chat, but, basically, the trick requires two fraudulent bids because of the way the eBay bidding agent works. The leading bid is always shown as the second-highest bid plus an increment n. Thus, if a bona-fide bidder has bid € 315 and you bid € 900, the *visible* highest bid only increases to € 315 + n = € 316. Other bona-fide bidders are still able to outbid those € 316, for example by bidding € 400, which would take the *visible* highest bid to € 401. By bidding € 900 with one account and € 915 with the other, you raise the visible highest bid to € 905, thereby making it impossible for other bidders to bid anything less than € 910 (you can never underbid the visible highest bid). By retracting your second-highest fraudulent bid at the last second, the visible highest bid (and thus the price you have to pay after winning the auction) falls back to € 315 + n = € 316. In principle, it doesn’t matter whether you rectract your highest or your second-highest bid, as the final price will end up being € 316 in both cases, but eBay regulations stipulate that the vendor is not legally required to sell to a bidder who has been outbid by another before. Thus, for fraudulent “bid shielding”, it is a good idea to retract the second-highest bid, as you end up with a legally-enforceable purchase contract that way.

12-21-2012 at 12:08:02

@ Marilyn
You can put in Smileys by typing the characters like in the old days,
say a : followed by a ) and your page and CM’s translate it to :)

You don’t really need Smileys because your humour is self-evident, whereas I find I must use them, as what I intend as a joke is often mistaken for serious. Somewhere else I joked (I thought) about having a detector to test my tea for Polonium and some thought I was overly paranoid.

12-21-2012 at 12:18:22

What if the world doesn’t end today? Can we reuse our Mayan calendars by flipping back 5,125 pages?

That’s not the only thing, now our most respected scientists say the real end date could be 23 Dec. 2012.
http://phys.org/news/2012-12-expert-mayan-calendar.html

12-21-2012 at 12:23:36

@Lynda,

About DSK.

Simple. Ppl were divided in 2 camps. A and B. After some thought I came up with ‘option C’ … I was right. I was right after 2-3 days while it took ‘the world’ months even years:) No need to ‘discuss’ this afterwards (ppl should have discussed this when it happened:) (search ‘qubit dsk’ and check youtube, btw check also some comments, you will see what ppl thought)

What this proved (to me) was that I just go by my own thoughts, which have to be devoid of ‘opinions’. Because every ‘opinion’ will cloud the truth!

It is a simple way of working and it ‘delivers’

In the chevaline case I have NO opinions about SM, BM, AH or whoever. I just (try to) stick to the facts and try to (re)construct what happened.

Therefor I also cannot have an ‘opinion’ about Zainab and Zeena (allthough I’m also human and certainly ‘feel’ something).

Thing with the Chavealine case is that there are few facts and that EM keeps the ‘dossier’ for himself … well, to me it becomes impossible to advance.

Therefor, on the facts that I have now I (have to) stick to SM as target, Motorbiker as Killer X with motive still unknown but X to be found in ‘circle SM’ …

… has nothing to do with ‘opinions’ … but everything to do with beiong ‘the best match’ I can come up with (atm)

- M

12-21-2012 at 12:26:51

@ All, still here, the hour has passed.

@ Oui, yes a thought for all those worse off than we as we.

@ Marilyn, thankyou for keeping things going – if there is a cover-up, then it is imperative to keep the story alive and seek justice for all.

12-21-2012 at 13:25:18

@All

So our world still exists.

Therefore, tonight I will be back serial killing. Oh, Jolly Good! (Do I need a smiley here?)

12-21-2012 at 13:33:15

@All

We are joking about the world ending, or not having ended, but my website is getting thousands of hits every hour on my articles about Bugarach. Visitors have googled ‘safe place in France’, or ‘how to get to Bugarach’, ‘how to survive 21′. I think there is real panic in the world. I first wrote about Bugarach about two years ago and then there was no reaction.

Of course for others the end of the world has already come. Bless their souls.

12-21-2012 at 16:20:28

You should be more critical:)

If I told you that the moon has disappeared … what do you do? Do you believe me? Do you ‘panic’? Perhaps you even go outside to ‘check yourself’ … lol … Anyway, suppose you’d never had read this post. Did you ‘panic’ or went outside to ‘check’? … See, the problem is in the reading. Ppl like to read, that’s why the Japanese say:

‘If you believe everything you read, better not read.’ ~ Japanese proverb

- M

12-21-2012 at 16:30:04

@Max

If you tell me that the moon has disappeared …. I’ll go outside and have a look.Then, when I see the moon, all bright and beautiful, I will say: “Ah, Max, you got me this time, but wait … You are going to scream when it is pay-back time!”

Seriously, I am skeptical about what I read. I certainly do not believe the gossip magazines. Having worked for one until two years ago I know what they get up to.

But how does one live without books? When I was just this high my mom took me with her to our local lending library and I can still recall the smell of the books – and the smell of the scent of old Miss Case (the librarian). Miss case with the large brown hairy mole on her chin — she must be long long dead.

So, as I do not believe everything I read, Max, I can continue to read.

12-21-2012 at 17:30:00

@Max

Was DSK framed? NO. He is a rat.

Max, you are a musician! That is wonderful. Word will go to Alexander that you will write the music score for our film. But I must warn you Alexander is into Heavy Metal. I also tend to go for the loud, although I do like something sweet and nice too.

12-21-2012 at 17:35:59

No prob, Max!

Dubstep is also fine with me.

12-21-2012 at 17:47:53

In Cornwall certain lay-bys are known discreetly to be where Doggin’ activities take place.
That’s all I know because it is not my cup of tea.
I think the French may be a little too sophisticated for this rustic stuff, but maybe that is what goes on in Martinet??

For the the record
I personally dont think CS’s family would ever think to murder (or contract one) for her lover
I think a more likely scenario is someone who has admired her from afar which was not requited took things into his own hands

12-21-2012 at 17:56:30

@ Max

I like that Japanese proverb.

Yesterday I did look at your blog for the first time ! Had DSK paid her at the time the matter would have been sorted, maybe he thought it was all part of the upgraded room service ! ‘Tout compris’.

As for Sylvain Mollier, agreed the target but that motorbike doesn’t sit well without further explanation from the Forestry guys who indicated it to get off where it was. Liberation said they did not speak to the rider and didn’t get a good look at the bike, so they can’t have passed it.

In other words it was infront of them, they turned around and then it was behind them.

12-21-2012 at 22:06:01

About DSK. My main obeservation is not that DSK is a ‘rat’ (lol, perhaps he is;) … nope, the main and important observation is they nearly everybody was wrong, based on premature opinions which in turn were based on nothing. For me a conformation to just go ‘my way’

About music. As above, I do that with music. I go ‘my way’. I play for my own fun with my own ears as sole critics. … But sure enough it is nice when other ppl like it (In the beginning I was even surprised anyone cared for what I played), therefor I sometimes share. Anyway, I have learned to be contend with what I got … not famous, but surprisingly my music became better out of nowhere. Which contradicts every ‘opinion’ that you have to start ‘early’. In other words, I do play since my teenage years (had to), but I started to play/compose ‘good stuff’, quite suddenly at 45+ … So, never too old;)

About the ‘moon’. I studied Physics. In the eighties there was an article about Quantum Physics (by some french guy) with serious philisophical implications. The title was ‘Is the moon there when nobody watches?’ … which to me, at that age sounded like completely RIDICULOUS … of course the moon is there:) … here is the catch, and check back what Marilyn replies … To REALLY be sure that the moon is still there YOU(!) have to check. The YOU part is what QM puts forward (the observer), which melts with eastern mysticism. This is the death to ‘believing’ and the rebirth of ‘plain clear vision’ (void of ‘opinions’) … so, for me, I did a 30 years travel from science and rationality to eastern stuff and religion, starting to put everything into place. A fab journey, open to everyone (I have not finished the journey yet;)

About Chevaline. All above is nice and well, but it wont make you a magician who is able to ‘solve’ the earthly matters with a snap of the fingers (my relation with my, french, wife as prime example and continuous challenge) … so yes, the Chevaline case intrigues me. More as a puzzle and to sharpen the non-opnion mindset. I will (try to) never say that I ‘believe’ person A or B did this or that. I have to ‘know/see’ it otherwise it must be rejected … the only way to crack this thing:)

A nice Max post on friday evening. Enjoy:)

- M

12-21-2012 at 22:14:03

Hello again everyone,

Just a light note here. If you guys decide to go ahead with the movie I can definitely play Eric Maillaud as I am as passive as he is :)
Zainab

12-21-2012 at 23:08:45

@Max

Interesting what you say about DSK. I was *never* wrong about him. I had his number when he was still Minister of Finance. All the journalists did, but, as you may have learnt from the Chevaline case, here in France journalists keep what they know to themselves.

Your journey from science to religion rings a bell with me. I made such a journey too, but it was from religion (childhood Calvinism – Dutch Reformed Church) to science as Stalin said ‘who needs God when you’ve got science’ – and then to the eastern stuff and mysticism, but I did not remain there either because I could never meditate because I could never ‘switch off’. And now I am where I am today. Today, I believe in mankind. Yes, mankind shocks the hell out of me at times (Chevaline and the death of those kiddies in the States) but I still believe that mankind will find the way.

Keep up the music, Max.

And remember … you will now have to compose the music score for our film.

12-21-2012 at 23:10:22

@J Cave

Doggin’ activities. Never heard that one before. If doggin’ is what I think it is, then, no, the French are not too sophisticated for it, they indulge indeed.

12-21-2012 at 23:12:49

@Zainab

Alexander is the one who is doing our casting, but I will put in a word for you to be given a screen test for the part of Eric Maillaud. You would however have to speak English as Peter Sellers did in the Pink Panther movies. I hope that will be OK.

12-21-2012 at 23:18:03

I’ll get down to some serial killing now. Cold,rainy and foggy night in Paris. Better weather a serial killer can not hope for. Now where is my can of pepper …

12-21-2012 at 23:52:29

Max, physics and the universum: Is the moon still there?

As Einstein explained it, we don’t know!

Albert Einstein (1879-1955) developed a theory of the universe based on a spacetime continuum, somewhat like Descartes’ earlier dead-matter mechanical universe with its ether. Gravity was an integral part of Einstein’s spacetime continuum, and light and other electromagnetic signals propagated through it at a constant speed – the speed of light. This relativity theory chiefly derived from the relativity of signals conveying information to human observers and its apparent mathematics.

Many years ago there was an excellent documentary on Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity. I recall the expanding universe and time is based on your point of reference explained as follows. If one has a train traveling away from you at the speed of light, you think you are seeing the rear end of the speeding train. However, if the universe would be contracting at the speed of light, one cannot perceive this fact as the image has not reached you until moment of impact.

12-21-2012 at 23:53:10

Compare and contrast.
In the UK when a newsworthy item ‘breaks’ as they say in the journalistic world, it gets an initial report by the local news media which may even be picked up the the news agencies. Assuming that its a spontaneous incident (as distinct from a pre-planned release) then the media will try and obtain more information from the public, including eye-witness reports, photos, vids etc. There is nothing inherantly malicious in this (although it can subsequently end up like that!). Reputable organisations do it, sometimes offering a fee, sometime seeking public goodwill, sometimes appealing to the vanity or ego of a potential witness. Have a look at the web sites of the UK news media and it will often contain such invites.
In cases such as these murders, the UK police will often make a public appeal for witnesses and giving sufficient information to enable potential witnesses the ‘mind frame’ to recall anything of relevance. Families and Investigating officers will often attend public press conferences where heart-rending appeals are made and photos of the deceased are shown and the deceased’s good character (hopefully) is exploited to the full to encourage potential witnesses to come forward.
If the enquiries are lengthy and unsuccessful, resort can be made to a number of television programes that show reconstructions of the events using the original crime scenes, featuring the investigating officers and often giving some previously confidential information in the hope that it will engender further leads. One in particular – CRIMEWATCH UK, broadcast once a month by the BBC has an impressive record of reaching potential witnesses that have resulted in the solving of some complex cases. -Have look at their web-site. Im sure I am not undervaluing their performance when I say that the origin of the program is either Germany or Netherlands.
Now my knowledge of French society is not as expansive as I would wish, but the one thing that seems to scream at me in all the logs is just how secretive the investigation is. Local residents do not appear to want to speak publicly of SM. Investigators do not seek publicity to encourage witnesses to come forward. What little that comes out of the mouth of EM seems more to be one of hope rather than professionism.
I am aware that the respective laws, the Rules of evidence, the Investigating proceedures are different, but I am having difficulty getting my head around what seems to be by the local population including the Investigators of ‘closing ranks’ or am I just paranoid?
Perhaps friends amongst us can explain all this to me?

12-22-2012 at 10:01:01

If the old world ended yesterday: Welcome New World.

I will be out for all of today and until late this evening/night.

If anything comes to your mind about Chevaline etc, do share it with us.

12-22-2012 at 18:35:32

@ Kevin:

“Crimewatch UK” might be based on German ZDF TV’s “Aktenzeichen XY – Ungelöst” which would translate as “Case file XY – unsolved”.

paging Dr. Stone:

Damn’ I got me this Aprilia Pegasos for a nice price on ebay following your instructions, what do I do now with a second bike?

Wait…it’s white…ahem, rather silver…Givi top case…side cases…rings a bell.

:)

12-22-2012 at 22:33:12

“Crimewatch MZT”

Word is going around media circles that the Gendarmerie investigators are focusing on the motorbike seen near the murder scene immediately after the shootings.

They still do not know the identity of the bike rider, but some eye witnesses have said that the motorbike did not bear a French registration plate.

As part of the investigation, Swiss, German and Italian border police along with the French investigators are studying video footage filmed on motorways, in rest areas, at petrol stations and in parking areas of restaurants,supermarkets and shopping malls adjoining the motorways.

Maybe the London Sundays will carry this story tomorrow.

12-23-2012 at 10:01:47

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9762604/Alps-murder-Saad-al-Hillis-Iraqi-family-tell-of-his-mysterious-messages.html

Hussain al-Hilli’s final memories of his cousin Saad are of an anxious, desperate man, burdened with a secret that may have taken him to the grave.

12-23-2012 at 11:40:47

@Peter

Thanks for the link. This will keep interest in the mass killing for the next few weeks. Interesting, reporter went to Iraq meeting distant family members and visited the home in Baghdad, Adamiyah district.

“Saddam wanted to nationalise everything and didn’t like private businessmen doing anything,” said Hussain.

He added that the wider Hilli family were also distrusted by Saddam because they had held senior positions in Iraq’s monarchical regime, which the Iraqi despot’s Ba’ath party had opposed. Balsam’s own father, Hashim, who served as as diplomat, was brutally tortured in jail in 1969, turning him into “a completely different person, terrified of everyone and everything,” according to his daughter. Another Hill relative was imprisoned by Saddam’s half-brother, Barzan al-Tikriti, who seized shares in his businesses.

“This tells you that the family were not in a good relationship with the regime,” said Hussein. “The theory that this was all to with Saddam’s money was baseless.”

“We used to discuss politics in our online conversations, and I was surprised by how radical he was – he was very supportive of Palestine, Hizbollah and Iran. If he tried to give his technology to one of those Middle Eastern powers, he would incur the anger of their rivals. I have no proof of this, but if he was stuck between them, there could be some consequences.”

The route taken by the assassination: French pointing figer at UK al-Hilli family – British at Saddam Hussein money laundering and source in Iraq – Iraqi family defining link to Saddam’s billions as baseless and offer UK SSTL and EADS industry, pro-Iran stance and a intelligens hit (Mossad). The UK wall of silence, his contract job and MI6. Back to square one.

It is clear from this article Kadhim al-Hilli was a prosperous man from his own right, a business man and anti-Saddam Hussein as I have stated from the start.

A development project has been proposed in 2012 for this district of Baghdad:
Av62 spanish architects and Adhamiya project in Baghdad plus video.

12-23-2012 at 16:47:02

@Peter

Thank you for drawing our attention to the Telegraph’s piece. It is the best I’ve read so far.

@Oui

Thank you for the links. As you say the Telegraph piece will keep interest going for the next few weeks.

@Peter and @Oui and @All those who are not celebrating Cmas somewhere on a Caribbean island …

What struck me in the article are: (1) “He sounded worried about something, saying he was not feeling OK, and that he wanted to come to live in Iraq,” Hussain recalled last week. “I thought: why would an Iraqi who has lived most of his life in England suddenly want to come to live here, when nearly every other Iraqi would love to come and live in England? I didn’t ask him much about it at the time. I wish I had now.”

(2) “That kind of murder, with the wife and mother-in-law, and the French witness too, it must be a Mob or an intelligence-style killing?”

(3) Hussain points the finger at Israel, saying Mossad would not hesitate to wipe out anyone offering to help Tehran, just as they have done with scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme. Others, though, think that if Saad had been hawking secrets around, it is just as likely that he fell foul of those he was trying to sell them to, either because the deal went sour for some reason, or to silence him afterwards.

So what the Telegraph writes takes us away from Sylvain Mollier as the main target and, indeed, back to the fact that there was more to Saad Al-Hilli than the peaceloving family man of stockbroker belt Surrey.

Shushu has been saying right from the start that we should go into what Iran is up to.

Something else. In my update of December 10 I wrote the following The French gendarmes on the case are certain that Mr. Baligant was shot down in a carjacking that went very wrong, and that his killer, or perhaps his killers, as motorway carjacking is usually carried out by a team of two or more, will only be found should they carry out a similar fatal carjacking which would lead to their immediate on-the-spot arrest.

In that update I dismissed the London papers’ ‘scoops’ that the killer of Xavier Baligant was the very same one who shot down the Al-Hillis and Sylvain Mollier. Those I spoke to told me that Xavier Baligant was shot to death in an attempted carjacking. I wrote it here. No one else mentioned carjacking anywhere. Now, I read in the Telegraph’s article that one theory is that the Al-Hillis and Sylvian Mollier were shot in a carjacking. So what I say is this: If you lift Telegraph make sure you lift correctly.

12-23-2012 at 17:53:52

To all of you saying “drugs are involved”…remember one thing:

Supposedly authorities conducted an autopsy on Mollier and the Al Hillis…forensics would have possibly publicized this with an investigation that followed that lead (unless of course, one was a dealer and not a user, which is not normally the case with steroid groups).

I find it interesting that there is a lot of criminal activity in the area and they dont have more cameras. Hopefully the many hours from CCTVs will catch SOME criminals at least, even if footage is unrelated.

I still believe the crime is tied to family and Iraq…(Cherchez l’argent!)…specifically because of the violence involved and they didn’t kill the girls, which I am grateful for that!

AU CONTRAIRE:
To those who say a drunk/druggie couldn’t have committed this crime…there are PLENTY of murders on record to discredit that theory!

12-23-2012 at 18:04:03

DOUBTFUL it was a hate crime because of the TWO DIFFERENT RACES INVOLVED!

12-23-2012 at 18:14:14

LARS – A “special police force” doesn’t just come in and take over…

It is called a joint investigation, or the investigation is transferred to federal authorities, depending on certain aspects of the crime. It depends on many factors like jurisdiction.There are joint task forces that combine specializations like forensics, crime scene analysis, etc. that often conduct a JOINT INVESTIGATION; but again, task force “management” depends on many factors…often politics stall investigations.

If this WAS a “professional hit”, I can almost guarantee you that the intelligence community already knows EXACTLY what is going on, and I can guarantee you, if that IS the case with certain actors beign involved, nothing further will be reported.

Speaking of which, I found some VERY interesting information on Belgian law and gov/law corruption related to kidnapped girls for elite pedophile rings. I hope Marilyn starts a blog for that! (Marc Dutroux) Talk about EERIE!

12-23-2012 at 18:15:16

@Sofie

Thank you for your comments.

Yes, some commentators did think that it was a drug-related crime – dealing rather than taking.

Others thought it was because of adultery etc.

If you read the London Daily Telegraph (you will find the link in Peter’s comment) then you will see that there is now a return to the theory that it was a political assassination. That Iraq, Iran, Israel and or England were involved. One of our commentators (Shushu) has all along said it was political. I also think it was political and that the killer is a professional and right now far from France; that he set off on his motorcycle immediately after the shooting and went on his way to where he had come from, hired or instructed to wipe out Saad Al-Hilli.

12-23-2012 at 18:27:21

@Sofie

re: Marx Dutroux. I know the case of course but I’ve never written anything about it. I don’t like to write about sex crimes. You know that his wife and accomplice was released a few weeks ago? She’s now staying in some convent with nuns. Has apparently found religion.

You certainly know your stuff. Something about your latest comment ‘rang a bell’ in my head, so I checked and I see you’ve commented in the past and I was indeed impressed then as I am now too. I was hoping that you would come back to tell us some more.

I think in the Al-Hilli case politics are indeed stalling investigations and that we may never know what Chevaline was about, that the killer will never be named and there will never be a trial. Do you remember Rainbow Warrior? Well, we are looking at something like that again now.

Further about Belgian law and kidnapped girls for elite pedophile rings. You’ve heard of the DSK case? Well, there too (I mean the prostitute ring in the Carlton Hotel in Lille, Northern France) high-ranking officials were involved. We elect these people and that is what they do …

12-23-2012 at 18:29:21

@Lars

When you read today’s comments, maybe you would like to post a reply comment to Sofie’s comment about law enforcement.

12-23-2012 at 19:40:09

@ Marilyn:

I remember carjacking was in in the mix from the start.

There had been reports of carjacking in the area, so they thought it could be carjacking.

I just don’t remember the source, but I remember reading it.

Seemed totally ridiculous to me – where would you sell or drive your jacked beamer with the steering wheel on the wrong side?

Jan, what car drove Xavier Baligant?

What I mean was it worth jacking?

Alex

12-23-2012 at 21:25:57

Probe car-jacking

“Police investigating the massacre of a British family gunned down in the French Alps are probing possible links to two attempted armed carjackings last night, it was reported.”

As the British press repeated these allegations in early reporting, which is bad PR for tourism BTW, the French police rejected this shortly thereafter.

Xavier Baligant … see above, opening of Marilyn Z. Tomlins diary with update.
Then, after having shot Mr. Baligant and getting to his victim’s car and seeing that there were two sleeping children on the rear seat, the killer had raced off in his own car.

12-23-2012 at 22:00:31

@ Alexander Cartier 12-23-2012 at 19:40:09
What car-jacker with so much as an ounce of self-respect would hijack “une petite Kia” with two kids inside?
http://forums.france2.fr/france2/Non-elucide/tuerie-chevaline-savoie-sujet_216_12.htm

@ all
A very merry Christmas to all of you!

12-23-2012 at 22:16:55

@Peter

What’s wrong with a Kia?

Small cars are easier to sell than a large Merc or Rolls.

Another thing is, a ‘minable’ who would shoot a man dead because he resisted his hijacking attempt, would be the type who would not say ‘no’ to a Kia.

Also, it was not Alexander who spoke about a hijacking as cause of the Baligant shooting, but it was me in the update I had previously this evening mentioned. So Alexander is quite innocent.

When I wrote my update I tried to find what car Baligant drove but could not, so I would like to know where the commentator in the france2 forum got his info from. You do not perhaps know do you Peter?

Once I was watching how small cars with non-Paris,but French, number plates would appear parked on a side street not far from my building, and how, after a few days they would disappear but would be replaced with other small cars. I told my concierge about it and he went to have a look and then he telephoned the police. The cars were indeed stolen and the police waited for the thief to appear to arrest him. He was from Bosnia. Inquisitive woman I am, as you can see.

A merry Christmas to you too Peter.

12-23-2012 at 22:18:25

@Oui

Thanks for the links.

Peter wanted to know who would hijack a Kia.

I would like to know who would hijack a car full of women and children?

12-24-2012 at 06:41:22

Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-23-2012 at 22:18:25
“@Oui Thanks for the links.
Peter wanted to know who would hijack a Kia.
I would like to know who would hijack a car full of women and children?”

The imagined hijacker wouldn’t want the passengers. SAH and the older girl get out of the car. The hijacker, with a partner, on a motorbike, has been following a car with UK plates – people unlikely to be armed and unlikely to come back to France to testify if they are caught – demands the car and orders the others out.

But SAH, recently described as strong-headed and likely to argue, even getting into a serious fight in Iraq, refuses, not because of the worth of the car, but because of “the package” whatever it was, that he dare not lose.

The hijacker shouts, “What? You crazy? I said for the women to get out,” waving his antique Luger for effect. Just then, SM arrives on bike, perhaps knows the hijacker from the area, intervenes, tries to to calm hijacker.

Hijacker is infuriated. Yells, “Butt out dude! None of your business,” in English and/or French. Shoots SM. SAH escapes to car, tries to run down hijacker, who shoots him, and continues on, eliminating everyone in a rage. Then the two criminals escape on motorbike – or maybe pretend to be cowherders, going down the hill with the cows – that’s one we haven’t thought of.

12-24-2012 at 06:58:33

You know what’s missing out of the Telegraph story? Any mention of SAH’s wife or the grandma from Sweden. Maybe it’s cultural in Iraq not to discuss the women. Or they’re intentionally left out of the story.

Way back, at the start of this, someone posting at Craig Murray and David Icke, when there was all the talk of the D-Notice. said they had a friend at a Swedish newspaper who would ordinarily give a hint as to what’s going on. But on these murders would not even return phone calls, which led the poster to believe there was some equivalent of a D-Notice in Sweden.

Lyndon LaRouche’s people and the Schiller Institute with whom one or more of the Molliers was involved via the Solidarité & Progrès party — the LaRouche people were involved in heavily harassing Swedish PM Olaf Palme for some years before his assassination, supposedly on behalf of the CIA.

12-24-2012 at 07:24:29

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-23-2012 at 18:27:21
@Sofie
“re: Marx Dutroux. I know the case of course but I’ve never written anything about it…
Further about Belgian law and kidnapped girls for elite pedophile rings. You’ve heard of the DSK case? Well, there too (I mean the prostitute ring in the Carlton Hotel in Lille, Northern France) high-ranking officials were involved. We elect these people and that is what they do …”

The David Icke group has been going on a long time about these paedophile / Satanic sacrifice / snuff film groups for elites. I thought it was loony except they were proven spot on about Jimmy Savile, et. al. The British elites have done a superb job in limiting further inquires into that and pursuit of any Lords, Ladies & Royals. Some dead perps named, a few still living ones thrown to the wolves under the bus. It will continue for the next 40 years.

“Do you remember Rainbow Warrior? Well, we are looking at something like that again now.”

I referenced that at Craig Murray, in that what if the murders at Chevaline were not specifically aimed at SAHs or SM, but murders of anyone at that specially named place by animal rights activists as a protest to the US sending old horses to Canada & Mexico for slaughter and eventual export to France. It was a two-for-one deal for them, a symbolic murder at the place of Horse Murders and retribution for the old Rainbow Warrior assassinations.

12-24-2012 at 07:41:15

@ Sofie 12-23-2012 at 17:53:52
“AU CONTRAIRE: To those who say a drunk/druggie couldn’t have committed this crime…there are PLENTY of murders on record to discredit that theory!”

You are right on this. There is no predicting what any nutter, common criminal, thief, mercenary or even state assassin will do these days. We not only have people in altered state on street drugs, but those out of street drugs looking for more, and ordinary people, perhaps not diagnosed mentally ill, who are either on or off their prescription meds who act bizarrely.

These days, with states doing Polonium poisoning and such, there’s no reason to think they’d tell their agents or contractors, “Be careful, don’t kill any kiddies. Bad publicity you know. It’s just not done.”

There was just a strange market robbery, which at first went well for the robber. The cashier handed over the money at gunpoint and the robber was leaving when he suddenly shot a customer entering the door. Too much adrenaline from the robbery? Mad because the clerk complied and he had no legitimate reason to shoot? Who knows?

12-24-2012 at 09:31:14

This is the last time I will mention Cmas. It is to wish you all a very happy Cmas.

I will be here, so if you feel like saying something about the Al-Hillis or whatever, go ahead.

12-24-2012 at 17:09:30

@NR @All

I have written my second diary on the Annecy murders @Booman –
End of the Year : Loose Ends Circumstances Annecy Killings

12-24-2012 at 19:57:11

Everyone look among your Christmas presents (or holiday season presents) maybe a new clue is left there. Or at least a fresh barrel of red herrings. The old ones are smelling bad by now. :)

Merry Christmas to all.

12-24-2012 at 20:20:33

@Oui

Thank you for drawing our attention and supplying the link to your second diary on the Annecy murders for Boomantribune.

It is indeed interesting and written with quiet wisdom and without sensationalism and accusation.

Indymedia goes strong … and Maarev’s report about Yossi Gal the Israeli ambassador to Paris was indeed interesting.

By the way, I’ve heard that the D-notice never existed, and you are right, we did never discuss it here.

I wish to add something about Mossad but will do so tomorrow.

@NR

Merry Christmas to you too. Have a nice day tomorrow. We will be here should you find a new clue in your stocking. I’ll see what Father Christmas will leave me in front of the fireplace overnight.

(Oh dearie me: In my previous comment I said I will not mention Christmas again …)

12-24-2012 at 20:23:00

I won’t be doing any serial killing tonight. It will be sooooooooooooooo politically incorrect to steal Father Cmas’s show, won’t it?

12-24-2012 at 22:49:13

Merry Christmas, everyone.

Have links to the property (or properties) in France (did he own property in Switzerland?), owned by SAH, been looked into? I don’t think this has been reported on. Perhaps an incensed neighbor.

I tend to agree with Max’s hypotheses 12-20-2012 at 13:13:09.

However, if rather than just random cruising around the area, SAH
had a recommendation from a local on places to visit, maybe he was advised (by someone with an ulterior motive who knew there was a barricade there) to go up the Combe d’Ire road. Seems a bit convoluted and you all may have previously discussed this angle.

I can’t envision someone just randomly hanging out in the shrubbery for victims at that remote site. Why wasn’t there a sign at the bottom of that road that advised it was not a through road? Was the barricade temporary, was there a landslide ahead or what?

12-25-2012 at 12:42:14

@ NR 12-24-2012 at 07:41:15

These days, with states doing Polonium poisoning and such, there’s no reason to think they’d tell their agents or contractors, “Be careful, don’t kill any kiddies. Bad publicity you know. It’s just not done.”

Sometimes, state- or semi-state actors are explicitly told the opposite: Go forth and cause some horrific, seemingly inexplicable mayhem, so that the people will vote for a conservative law-and-order government in the next elections.

The Killers of Brabant are a case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabant_killers

Fresh evidence unearthed by Swiss journalist Daniele Ganser has strengthened suspicions that these mindless killers may have belonged to the belgian branch of NATO’s “Stay Behind” network
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_stay-behind_network
Likewise, several bomb attacks in Italy have been conclusively linked to Gladio, the italian branch of Stay Behind.

I don’t believe that the Chevaline murders were an incident of this kind, I merely wanted to point out that state-sponsored actors sometimes deliberately engage in apparently mindless, random violence.

12-25-2012 at 14:23:34

@Peter

re: Killers of Brabant and Stay Behind Network

Thanks for this, Peter. I’ve never heard of the above two, so I find it interesting indeed.

Yes, these days, when someone has murder in mind children are no different from adults.

One of these days someone will call Jack the Ripper ‘the Gentleman Killer’ seeing he killed only prostitutes.

@NileQueen

No one has until now dug up Al-Hilli property in Switzerland.

12-25-2012 at 22:52:38

And, Peter, Gladio may also have been behind the Oktoberfest bomb in 1980:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio#Anschlag_auf_das_M.C3.BCnchner_Oktoberfest_1980

(German).

Alex

12-25-2012 at 23:00:09

Just for reference … Zainab was NOT killed, Zeena was NOT touched. Stick to facts.

12-26-2012 at 06:44:06

Buenos Dias Y Feliz Navidad Marylin and Company

II have tried getting the Death certificates which are supposed to be Freely available
https://www.acte-etat-civil.fr/DemandeActe/Accueil.do
It is a clear interface very simple..but I keep getting Apache error server babble trash after completing form

I figure it was because I am here in states..So perhaps a spirited Partizan makes the request.
I would put Chevaline as that is were it is required to be first whether decedent foreigner or native..Request in field complete extract..it will be mailed to you..
Do it for all 4

It is almost pointless not seeing those..If I were insurance company..I would need that to pay out.

WE are concerned and inquiring people..We need that to believe.

Hugz and best wishes for a prosperous new year!

Manny

12-26-2012 at 08:44:11

Maybe, just maybe, there is a belated Christmas present in the making …

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/how-i-watched-the-world-turn-the-independents-foreign-correspondents-look-back-at-the-major-events-of-2012-8431224.html

A professional killer? The gun was an antique: a Swiss army Luger from the 1920s or earlier. It fell apart in the gunman’s hands. Fragments of it were found at the scene. One of them has recently yielded a trace of DNA, which may yet help trace the attacker. On the other hand, that DNA may belong to Zainab al-Hilli, aged seven, who was beaten and left for dead.

12-26-2012 at 09:34:48

@Manny

I highly recommend that you do not apply for the death certificates of the four people who died on the lay-by that day. Don’t ask me why. Just know that being in the States won’t give you any protection. Now,please, Manny listen to me. OK?

@Peter

Trust the Independent to revive interest. Thank for the link.

@Max

I think NR was speaking generally when he said that about killing children too.

@All

Last week of the year – and here we are still talking about this case. Will we do so still when Alexander is 63 (the Beatles song)?

12-26-2012 at 12:31:48

Merry Christmas to all!

This morning I used Google to search information in Arabic about the Annecy murders. In great amazement I found this account … I posted it on my second diary @BooMan with a title change to Annecy Murder Mystery – Baghdad al-Hilli Family Points to Mossad.

BREAKING NEWS: My Years of Friendship with Saad al-Hilli

12-26-2012 at 13:14:18

@ Marilyn Z. Tomlins 12-26-2012 at 09:34:48
“@Max : I think NR was speaking generally when he said that about killing children too.”

Yes I was, but the killer(s) at least attempted murder on the older girl and who knows if the younger one would have been harmed if she’d been found. My point was, these days, it’s wrong to assume children are excluded from harm by a nutter, a car-jacker or a paid assassin.

“@All : Last week of the year – and here we are still talking about this case. Will we do so still when Alexander is 63 (the Beatles song)?”

At Craig Murray the thread is so long again the server memory is causing trouble. I told the moderator, Jon, that since the al Hilli puzzle may not be solved for 100 years, we were considering starting a group like the Ripperologists, and he should allocate enough memory now sufficient for comments until 2113.

12-26-2012 at 13:33:22

@ Oui

The folks at Craig Murray found that account some time ago ;-)

SAH’s interlocutor is his cousin Hussain AH, the same guy whom the Torygraph interviewed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9762604/Alps-murder-Truth-about-Saad-al-Hillisfamily-feud.html

In my opinion, the only interesting bit is the one where SAH (apparently) complains about getting hacked: I no longer use MSN since he took over my account one the idiots from Jordan and create many problems for me last year.

12-26-2012 at 16:02:40

@NR

I think I was once on that Ripperologist forum. If you are, NR, you may see my comments there, but it was a few years ago. (Time flies.)

@Oui

Thanks for the links. I went on to your Booman entry but I could not follow the Arabic/English google translate. I wish I can find a version which is not lost in translation.

Where is Lars? He would have done it for us. But I think Lars is in his Father Cmas role. LARS, CMAS IS OVER …

@Peter

re: Torygraph.

You know UK politics well if you know the Daily Telegraph is referred to as that.

I agree with you about the level of interest of that interview. I thought ‘so what else is new?’

12-26-2012 at 17:18:55

@ Marilyn

The quote I gave was not from the Telegraph interview, but from Hussain AH’s online exchange with SAH, in which SAH complains about his MSN account having been hacked (presumably by “fellow jihadists” from Jordan).

An amusing aside: A Google search for “husshilli” leads to a different email address belonging to a different person, a customer of this organization
http://www.britishsnoring.co.uk/
Obviously, those snorers are fast asleep at their keyboards, because they store all their customers’ PayPal payment data unencrypted and unsecured online, making it a veritable treasure-trove for scammers: ftp://80.177.174.44/disk1/udriveBackup/Accounts%20Backup/Accounts/Paypal/Paypal%20-%20October.txt
One does not encounter that level of complacency and sheer stupidity very often :-(

12-26-2012 at 17:51:48

@Peter

I am totally confused ….

Where did you get this quote In my opinion, the only interesting bit is the one where SAH (apparently) complains about getting hacked: I no longer use MSN since he took over my account one the idiots from Jordan and create many problems for me last year.

I clicked on that paypal list but quickly went off afraid that scammers could even scam the pcs of those going on to the site!

12-26-2012 at 19:07:33

@ Marilyn

In the online conversation between SAH and his cousin, as published by @ Oui, SAH is quoted as saying:
I no longer use MSN since he took over my account one the idiots from Jordan and create many problems for me last year. (near the end, under the dateline February 21, 2012).
Source: http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/12/24/11346/542#4

The same document also mentions one of the email addresses used by SAH, husshilli@hotmail.com. As far as I have been able to make out, that email address doesn’t lead anywhere, though.

(There is no need to be afraid of the snorers per se; I just wouldn’t recommend buying from a store that puts all your purchase and payment information online, for all the world to see.)

12-26-2012 at 20:14:55

@ Peter
“33 London Road Reigate Surrey” the address of British Snoring is also Charter House, another of those places like 55 Princes Gate, and 21 Buckle Street, and Rodina House at 32 St James’s Duke Street, the home addresses of many companies with nominee directors.

33 London Road has freight forwarding companies, which appeared in some searches over at CM. I didn’t see any British ex-SAS security (mercenary) companies like Executive Outcomes or Pligrims Society or Pilgrims Africa or Triple Canopy.

Note the 33! A big Masonic number. :)

@ Marilyn : This properly belongs over at CM but that is still broken, so I will put it here for posterity, in case the agencies explode an micro-EMT above my computer. :) :)

12-26-2012 at 21:21:00

@ All

What struck me in that interview with SAH’s cousin in Iraq is when he mentions that neither British nor French police have ever tried to get in touch with him. Unless we’d assume they couldn’t locate him just as easily as any journalist, it should imply the official investigating teams just didn’t care because they knew better somehow. That’s interesting.

@ Marilyn

Yes, time flies, and I have no idea what age Alex may be. As for the Beatles song, this I remember: “Will you still need me, will you still feed me / When I’m 64″.

12-26-2012 at 21:29:59

@Peter

Quite interesting, did you do a reverse lookup on this email account?

What if these are nicknames used to correspond in code/secrecy?
I searched for husshilli and found two links on an Arabic weblog (translated to English).

husshilli
Male – 52 years, Montreal, Canada
Name: Huss Hilli
Date of Birth: 07/30/1960
Site: Montreal (Quebec) Canada
Mother tongue: Arabic
4 visitors since 20 April 2009

hillihuss
Male – 52 years, Baghdad, Iraq
Name: Huss Hilli
Date of Birth: 07/30/1960
Site : Baghdad Iraq
Mother tongue: Arabic
0 visitors since 11 November 2011.

Could this be the birth date of Hussein al-Hilli who said he is a writer and journalist from Canada.

Perhaps as demonstrated by Gen. Petraeus and Mrs. Broadwell recently, via a mutual email account exchange messages through concept emails without sending them.

If Saad al-Hilli was naive about net security, I would not be surprised by the Nigerian hacking his bank account and what about any foreign intelligence agency tracking Saad al-Hilli for many years and through gps knew exactly his whereabouts traveling across France to Annecy and set up an ambush as soon as he arrives at the isolated location of layby Martinet parking beyond Chevaline.

12-26-2012 at 21:31:20

Your Comments
@Marylin..I am afraid I already gave my home address on the French site..before the apache server error kicked in. If it was a site to get address..which on reflection it may well be..they have me..
I trusted the French site..It was so charming and polite I could not resist!
But if they are looking for the Bad men who are much smarter than me..they should know now before too late….I make a terrible Goose Pate
and Muack! I love you..nobody ever cared like this for me..thank you.’
I will abide by suggestion.
Here is a little play made by A good friends friend . She works with BBC ..made with Iphone Cameras!
Very short ..I hope you like.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/skq55jy7gs5dp2v/Appraisal-FinalCut.3.mov

@NR so is the the 33 for the Abidun attorney’s offices at 33 chambry lane
http://33knowledge.com/barristers/john-black-qc
/..with a moniker for Abioduns family business Penny Blaque ..a play on Penny Black the first stamp….I remember conversation Fred USA Martin UK..I can only imagine the creativeness of the people in this affair or fate has a great sense of humour. That is why I think we will not hear from Abiodun for a good time . Prior attempts hade been made by police believed Zaid on expired credit card months before
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9639564/Alps-shooting-victims-brother-to-be-questioned-over-Swiss-credit-card.html

Oui..I loved reading tthat link..it does put more light on Saad..he sounds like a horribly tormented man..then a happy go lucky jack of all trades his neighbors colleagues portray..who wants out of the company’s business.
Jordan banks are said to hold much of S H usseins money too.
France and South America
But once he checked into the Freddies or St.Martins hotel..little did he realize that even after faithful service..you cannot check out.

12-26-2012 at 21:46:51

@ Oui

Whether he was naive or not in terms of Internet security, there’s no doubt lots of people could manage to track SAH’s whereabouts, even up to Chevaline. The real question is who would take the pain to do so and for what reason? The lone psychopath theory is kind of fading away here.
But then it’s probably true for SM as well. I’d be really surprised if he was riding his € 5,000 bicycle without at least a smartphone with him. Got lost, you bet.

12-26-2012 at 21:50:25

@Peter

OK, now I understand: the quote is from Oui’s Booman entry. I had a problem understanding the google translate of the Arabic article as I said before. I’ve reread it now and I am none the wiser.

The man speaking here, is he the one who spoke to the Daily Telegraph? He said the following which shows who he is: (I am taking it from Oui’s Booman entry.)

In April 2004, sent me network CNN to Britunaia cycle management accounts and the office where she was an opportunity for me to meet Saad al-Hilli and his family especially his father Kazem al-Hilli which is a cousin of my father and who has retained memories of an old and dear to him since I was little.

The meeting was the first at the hotel where he and the father of Saad Kazem al-Hilli and Saad and sister Zaid and sat exchanging conversations and asked me, Saad’s father a lot about the situation in Iraq and we took a number of pictures Pkamerta where I was invited to their home in the area will see for lunch with the family.

The next day came Zaid and took me in his car to the house, there I met a second wife, Saad Ms. Iqbal yolk and sat all on the table lunch exchange chatter was also exchanging conversations public with Saad punctuated of course political topics where I found Saad on his ideas, if not more stringent and rigid towards Israel and America! But exceeded his criticism of the Iraqi political situation and some Iraqi politicians such as Dr. Iyad Allawi, the Iraqi prime minister (at the time) which accused him that he “wants to re-Baathification” of the rule!!

Never met after Saad but we stayed in touch by phone and Interviewing (Eliyahu مسينجر) and finally through Facebook before he was killed months where we met on Facebook.
And explicitly and through all my meetings with Saad never touch Aosalh about what to do and remained the subject of his work and his career for me unknown and was not important in our relationship. Last visited Saad with his wife to Amman in 2006 on his way to Baghdad for the sequel liquidation of the property of the family, where he met my family in Amman, I was not I Mtwajadda where you are away busy with my work.
The contacts I remained continuous and Saad also remained Saad’s father Mr. Kazim al-Hilli in touch with my father and our family until his illness and death in Spain Awakhraam 2011

The piece has a Baghdad dateline, but in which publication there was it published? Does anyone know?

I am not asking these questions because I am writing about it: it is just for curiosity’s sake. (If curiosity does not mind of course: but she knows me by now, so she should know I always have a hundred questions after every item of information!!)

I am becoming more sure every day that Saad Al-Hilli was the target, and never never was it Sylvain Mollier. Saad Al-Hilli was deeply involved in Middle Eastern arms production and sales, and he had to be taken out. (Just my thinking without any hard facts to back it up.)

For this reason and that it therefore involves States, this is a case which will never be heard in an open court.

Crimes of Passion are solved very quickly. So if Sylvain Mollier had been playing the field and someone had shot him for that reason,this crime would by now have been solved. Such killers make mistakes which betray them.

Professional killers, as I say it was in this case, don’t make the kind of mistakes that would betray them.

I hope what I’ve written here now makes sense. I’ve been writing all day – must revise and edit one of my manuscripts for e-book publication – and I am dead tired tonight. Can’t even go serial killing tonight … ’cause I’m too tired.

12-26-2012 at 21:59:08

@Eugene

re: Alexander is 40. He told us.

Yeh, that was the Beatles song – will you still need me, will you still feed me when I’m 64.

When I first heard it thought ‘so that is what a woman is for – to feed a man’.

re: the police not having contacted the man from the article.

The police would have rather a huge task if they are to interview everyone who had ever known Saad Al-Hilli: those who went to school with him; worked with him; played golf with him (in stockbroker belt Surrey the men play golf), went to the mosque where he went (provided of course he went to the mosque); cut his hair etc etc. I am therefore not surprised that the police had not made contact with this man.

12-26-2012 at 22:02:11

@NR

The dedication that goes into research in connection with this case is amazing.

12-26-2012 at 22:03:23

Tomorrow is another day … right now it is some …. uh … Abba for me …

12-26-2012 at 22:31:28

@Marylin..Can’t even go serial killing tonight … ’cause I’m too tired.

hehe that remind me when I was called to school for my son..He was in primary school and teacher said she was concerned he had written on paper he wanted to be a serial killer. I said Ms Teacher..look at his drawing..that is a box of cereal not serial!! Thank you for the concern..and good day. I of course removed him from that class..to another..Today he is married..has nice littlle house ..nice wife..Loves His Lord..and people. I would say..We need more Cereal killers like this! :)

Please get rest..and be ready for the New year..we are going from year of Dragon to ear of water snake.!

Good nite!

12-27-2012 at 01:50:40

@Manny

Reading your delightful comment, I was sure you wiuld end …

Good bite!

12-27-2012 at 08:51:44

@Manny

Thanks for the Finalcut. Yes, I loved it.

re: Saad was horribly tormented.

Mannie, do our neighbours ever know who we really are? Even relatives and friends do not always know what we really are,what we feel and think about something. Ask yourself what those who know you – see you every day perhaps – will tell the journalists about you should you end up a murder victim (God forbid!). A while back there was this fortyish woman murdered here in Paris. What struck me about the case, and the only reason why I remember it, is because her neighbours described her as ‘wearing different clothes every other day’. So, I do wonder what my neighbours will say about me? Maybe only that I ‘wore different clothes every day’.

12-27-2012 at 08:56:51

@Oui and @Mannie

Good bite – that’s good!

Alexander once said in a comment that he is a cereal killer every morning.

12-27-2012 at 11:23:30

@ Oui 12-26-2012 at 21:29:59

I don’t believe that SAH was “naive” about Internet security, just that he interacted with a lot of hackers whilst venting his spleen on jihadist forums, some of them friendly, some less so.

I have never been inside a jihadist Internet forum myself – I don’t need the hassle that this entails in my life – but reliable sources tell me that they are crawling with hackers: The jihadists are teaching themselves hacking techniques because they want to harness them as a weapon in the fight against their enemies; moderate muslims constantly try to hack those jihadist sites because they want to shut them down; both state-sponsored and amateur hackers from the US and Israel are trying to infiltrate those sites because they wish to identify the participants and eavesdrop upon their conversations. In short, it is an extremely high-risk environment and SAH made himself a target by being there.

I have no idea which faction those “idiots from Jordan” belonged to (upon reflection, Jordan being what it is, they probably were moderate muslims trying to shut up SAH), but they were almost certainly not the only ones who had a go at him.

12-27-2012 at 17:36:45

@Peter

I now understand how come Saad Al-Hilli fell victim to Mr Nigerian John.

I agree with you his killer had no connection with Jordan. I’ve always rather liked Jordan: been there just once though when I also went to Aqaba. I also had a lot of respect for King Hussein. His son rules OK too: English mother; English education, which stands for something. No?

12-27-2012 at 17:38:15

I will now be off serial killing. Wonderful night for it: wind blowing in gales and rain coming down. I therefore intend to do quite a bit of killing tonight.

12-27-2012 at 19:56:07

DIRECT THREATS by SAUDI TO UK CITIZENS by Saudis-TIMELY THREATS. AUG 17, 2012

EADS -BAE systems corruption allegations!!!

Other than suspecting the brother, which is still quite plausible, I still suspect Saad might have sold GPS jamming/control tech or knew something about jamming equipemet sent to Iran…Saudis and Iran are natural “politcal” enemies.

$2B+ contract w/ Saudi and THREATS OF MURDER regarding Cayman Is. accounts are highly suspect, esp. w/ a long term investigation involving acctng fraud, etc.& esp. w/regard to OUSTED Royal Army, Lt Col Ian Foxley and bribery allegations. Considering that over 50,000 US weapons “went missing” in Iraq, it is worth looking into relativity factors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/9476246/EADS-faces-questions-over-2bn-Saudi-deal-QandA.html

Excerpt from article below:
“After being investigated for years over extensive allegations of corruption in half a dozen deals from the mid-1980s, in 2010 BAE admitted to false accounting and making misleading statements, and agreed to pay out almost £300m in penalties in the US and the UK. The company ran a global money-laundering system: a network of secret cash payments amounting to billions of pounds that went on for years with the connivance of the British government. Authorities repeatedly let the company off the hook.”

In 2006 Tony Blair forced the SFO to close down a long-term inquiry into the al-Yamamah deal between the UK and Saudi Arabia. Photo: Eddie Keogh/Reuters

News that the Serious Fraud Office is investigating allegations of corruption in a deal between the UK government, GPT Special Project Management (a subsidiary of the arms company EADS), and Saudi Arabia is to be welcomed.

Three whistleblowers allege that, as part of the £2bn government to government deal for communication and surveillance equipment for the Saudi national guard, at least £14.5m in suspicious payments were made from 2007 and 2010 to two companies based in the Cayman Islands. The whistleblowers claim the companies received 14% of the equipment budget on the contract yet provided no goods or services.

Ministry of Defence officials learned of the payments in 2008 and, despite warning GPT that such payments would not be allowed in the future, took no action, as the disbursements continued for the next 19 months. No guilt has yet been established, and EADS says it is co-operating with the SFO.

This deal took place within the context of a global trade in weapons and defence equipment in which many laws seem not to apply. Defence companies and individual arms dealers operate largely with impunity in spite of the fact that the sector accounts for about 40% of corruption in all world trade.

The size of weapons transactions – often worth tens of billions of pounds – and the reality that these deals take place behind a veil of national security-imposed secrecy, create fertile ground for corruption.

The companies and the illicit dealers, whose operations are often closely intertwined, have strong links to ministries of defence, the military and intelligence services, as well as to political parties. There is a continuously revolving door of people moving between these entities.

The funding of the electoral campaigns of those representatives who support defence contractors in the US can seem like a system of legal bribery, while in Europe and the UK contributions to political parties by the sector have taken place for decades.

The relative immunity of the trade is illustrated by the fact that, of 502 violations of UN arms embargoes by governments, companies and individuals, only two have resulted in legal action, with just one leading to a conviction.

After being investigated for years over extensive allegations of corruption in half a dozen deals from the mid-1980s, in 2010 BAE admitted to false accounting and making misleading statements, and agreed to pay out almost £300m in penalties in the US and the UK. The company ran a global money-laundering system: a network of secret cash payments amounting to billions of pounds that went on for years with the connivance of the British government. Authorities repeatedly let the company off the hook.

First, Tony Blair forced the SFO to close down a long-term investigation into the most corrupt arms deal in history – the al-Yamamah deal between the UK and Saudi Arabia. The government claimed that national security necessitated this closure after the Saudis threatened the likely loss of “British lives on British streets” if the investigation continued.

Senior members of the intelligence services disagreed with the government’s judgment. A high court judge suggested that it was incumbent upon the executive and the SFO to ensure that no one interfered with our justice system. Even elements in the business community worried that the decision had damaged the UK’s reputation as a leading financial centre.

In early 2011, the SFO followed up this capitulation with a derisory settlement with BAE in relation to five other allegedly corrupt deals. The company was fined £500,000 for “accounting irregularities” after promising to pay damages of £30m. The US departments of justice and state fined the company almost $550m for the same transactions. The difference in settlements may be seen in the context of the views of the late foreign secretary Robin Cook, who described BAE as “having the key to the garden door of No 10″.

There is a history of defence transactions with Saudi Arabia being tarnished by corruption. An arms dealer of more than 50 years’ experience described to me how business with his Saudi clients is done, using a glass on his desk: “You always have to pay bribes. If they want to buy this glass you tell them it’s $5. They will beat you down to $1, then they will say, ‘OK, I will give you $3, but you give me $2 back!’” He claims that on his Saudi deals he gives more than half of the contract price back in bribes.

From the documentation presented to the SFO and the government concerning the allegations in the GPT contract, there appears to be prima facie evidence of bribery. Will the SFO break the trend of decades by fully investigating the allegations and, if appropriate, charge the corporate entity and the individuals responsible? Or will this be another whitewash to protect the British defence industry, the government and its munificent Saudi client?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/16/serious-fraud-office-arms-trade

12-27-2012 at 20:02:43

PS…Thanks Marilyn for the nice comments on Jordan and the King/Queen…my friends know them from the elite Arabian horse industry (CA/USA)…we also raised 25+ Arabian horses and know these connections well…
They only had nice things to say about the family..how well they were treated, etc. I have a feeling there are too many criminals involved in these uprising…way too many let out of jails and prisons!!!

Jihadis NEED ZANAX, PROZAC and other medications in regards to ANGER MANAGEMENT ISSUES, and they need to stop doing illicit drugs that directly contirbute to this violence, amongst their other criminal behaviors.

12-27-2012 at 20:23:00

(Private, Confidential Correspondence)
Re:Recent SAH Article:
Family cousin and other family speaks out 12/34/12 (Telegraph)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/9762604/Alps-murder-Truth-about-Saad-al-Hillisfamily-feud.html

Hussain al-Hilli’s final memories of his cousin Saad are of an anxious, desperate man, burdened with a secret that may have taken him to the grave.

Last February, six months before Saad and his family were murdered, the pair were having one of their regular Facebook chats, normally a chance to swap notes on two very different lives. While Saad would bring news from leafy Surrey, Hussain would bring talk of life – and sometimes death – in Baghdad, the war-torn Iraqi capital from which Saad’s side of the family had left decades before. This time, though, Hussain noticed something odd straightaway.

“He sounded worried about something, saying he was not feeling OK, and that he wanted to come to live in Iraq,” Hussain recalled last week.

12-27-2012 at 21:17:14

FYI
“HUSSHILLI” email account might be a related account of his cousin, Hussein…this makes the most sense.

I just spent a lot of time sending this updated information regarding Hussein’s recent comments on 12/16/12 to you and now it has been removed from your site?
WHY?
Is this because I only have temporary email accounts? It is to help protect ME from HACKERS! I only use these for public internet.

12-27-2012 at 21:19:06

Now the information reappears…strange things going on here in regards to compatibility…
If back hats were involved w/ SAH, then I wouldn’t put it past them to be here too!

12-27-2012 at 21:19:36

@ Peter:

Thanks for “The Independent” link!

Gives hope that the killer’s DNA is on the gun’s fragments!

@ Manny:

It’s MarIlYn, not MarYlIn!

Or if you want to put it in NBA hoops’ terms: This is *not* LINsanity!

Anyway I just wanted to add to what Marilyn wrote before even though I’ve already written it some 6000 comments ago:

Once we’re dead we might be wrongly judged by some detail we’ve never really cared about when alive.

That’s why I repeat: if I ever get killed in the streets of France, it were surely not some remnants of former East German state security!

Alex

12-27-2012 at 21:39:27

Alexander…It’s not ALWAYS the “value” of the car, as the reason it is being jacked, but also the convenience of covering up a criminal trail…besides, only those type of car jackings happen in Stockton, CA! I was in my convetible Vette when a guy tried to jump in while I was crossing in town from 1 freeway to another, in bad part of twon…I just ran the red light I was at to prevent that crime…I’vewitnessed SERIOUS life threatening crimes, and learned tha EVADING A POTENTIAL CRIME is the FIRST and FOREMOST thing that will save your life!! If something doesn’t look or “feel right”, GET OUT ASAP!!! Violent illness also helps here! I joke with friends about getting explosive diahrrea, but if a shark attacks me in the ocean, it wont be for very long!

I am from a law enforcement background and also have a lot of experience with local, federal and DOD investigations, surveillance, reports, records, etc, so I am very familiar with crimes, methods and other forensics regarding criminal activities. One of my exes was a DOD SA in Alameda, so I am VERY familiar with capability factors and other relative measures with regards to investigations. I also worked for 2 law enforcement LOCAL agencies, so I understand the diversity of politcs involved with both interagency and intra-agency…

The very fact that comments by authorities have been most recently quelled could be related to many factors, but my first suspicion is that they are not any closer, or quieted through directive (we all know what this means). Also, investigations sometimes need to be quiet before other elements can be discovered, or released to the public. Many other factors there too like liability, etc…

Marilyn:

Thanks for the kind words again…

PS “A cereal killer is out of the question…it just goes too much against the grain.” Whatever happened to World Peas, anyway?

With lots of aloha and appreciation!
A bientot…

12-27-2012 at 22:30:28

In regards to Arabic translations:

FIRST and FOREMOST, you can often discern events, etc. by assessing what is NOT BEING SAID, and by WHO is NOT talking! Sometimes translations exist when not one verbal cue is initiated. When you learn to “see” that language, understanding becomes more apparent, as does misunderstanding when cues are misread! A deaf person SEES FAR MORE than the average person!

I have sent an extensive paper/feedback to Google regarding translations. (I’ve studied over 13 languages, including Farsi and Arabic -several dialects)
There are inherent problems with translations, as I also saw this during SAH investigations/interviews too. Sometimes key points are mistranslated, leading to misinformation/confusion. I caught one of these during the Chevaline interview with witness “Sylvie”…(I also found her house within less than 3 minutes after seeing the interview.)

I tranlslate and conduct extensive research of many docs in many languages, even langs I haven’t studied, so I have an affinity for understanding difficult translations (even Chinese and Russian, which I have never formally studied).
Being a professional editor (on hiatus) has facilitated the process…(You should READ some of the discombobulated stories I’ve had to edit in my own native language!). Discerning their meanings often entails going back to get the REAL STORY and translating the material…IN THE SAME LANGUAGE, even!

Mechanical translations (especially as is NOT advertized by the manufacturers) aren’t always accurate, and in fact, sometimes they are completely off of the mark.

Many times, subject/object are twisted in translations and confuse the reader as to which one was actually the victim or the perpetrator! (This is also good to prove which language students are CHEATING on their homework!)
German and Farsi vs. non-Indo-EU langs are also good examples of these failures, especially when using Google translate…there are better apps, but they aren’t usually free.
I’m working on fixing these failures with an IT friend and a brother who was at Rand Corp.

The best thing you an do is switch translations around in Google, especially if you are translating from/to unrelated languages…if you speak/understand FR/SP/IT/Port, translate the German or other language into several of those languages with which you are more familiar, including English…sometimes this helps.

(If one truly wishes to be institutionalized for mental anxiety, try doing searches in Chinese!)

12-28-2012 at 00:11:07

@Alex a rose is still a rose by any other name and I know she knows where my heart is and I know too how to hold the stem with much much care. Thank you I will try to be more careful..
@Marilyn I had some very nice men 4 come to the job today and leave me the watchtower material. It was first time I see a non family visit in many years. One said get closer to God. The other do you have patience? The other..a better Xmas gift!They drove a beautiful black car. You know..Maybe it pays to be close to God, and maybe I get to drive a nice car like theirs, and wear nice shades too. Not a bad racket ehh?
Me..a humble worker in the vineyard..I can only dream:(

Now..I ran into this which is Sept 9.
Italian paper..mentions the dratted Flat Tire/Tyre which we know ..I think we know..was not.
Italian paper
http://www.lastampa.it/2012/09/08/esteri/la-ruota-sgonfia-e-il-motore-acceso-i-tanti-misteri-della-strage-di-annecy-TYHFVRy3Y3vd5op0AnjUeI/pagina.html
Translated to English..
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2F2012%2F09%2F08%2Festeri%2Fla-ruota-sgonfia-e-il-motore-acceso-i-tanti-misteri-della-strage-di-annecy-TYHFVRy3Y3vd5op0AnjUeI%2Fpagina.html
What also interested me me was the last statement that the area had been an AlQaeda recruiting and training ground..

Now this one gave me idea on topic has been not been covered too much..maybe not enough to go on ..still… it intrigued me how the officer killed by Merah was lured.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-03-22/French-killing-spree/53697578/1

Merah was tracked down by more than 200 special investigators. They found his mother’s computer, which he used to respond to an online ad posted by the first victim, a paratrooper trying to sell his scooter. Authorities also found a Yamaha motorcycle shop where Merah suspiciously sought information about how to deactivate a GPS tracker.”

Reminded me of Craigs list killers..he must have posted his house for sale..somewhere… in papers or online..in the City of Strangers. most likely online . Surely even Zaid would have been busy trying to get a buyer so he could get his dreams too and speed things up on his brothers end and there may have been several offers that we don’t know of..If I can get the house address I will try to look ..it was posted somewhere back..some hwere there is a cache..

12-28-2012 at 01:40:17

@Manny

Five years prison for French scientist in terror plot

Adlene Hicheur, a French-Algerian researcher at Switzerland’s CERN laboratory on the Swiss-French border, was convicted of “criminal association with a view to plotting terrorist attacks” by a French court on Friday. He has been in jail since his arrest in October 2009 awaiting trial.

The charges stemmed from an email exchange Hicheur had with Mustapha Debchi, who is believed to be a leading member of al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. Prosecutors claimed that Hicheur indicated his willingness to participate in a terror attack by identifying potential targets in France and suggesting a military base in the Haute-Savoie region.

Particle physicist ‘falsely accused’, claims brother

Tuerie de Chevaline : la victime était propriétaire en Gironde

Sud-Ouest (South West), the regional newspaper, tonight revealed that they also had an ancient house at Saint-Macaire , in the Gironde department, some 30 miles from Bordeaux.

Mr Al-Hilli had bought the property in the medieval village, which has a population of just over 2000 people, in the 1990s for an unknown sum, and had been seen working on it over the years.

Despite this, it is today little more than an overgrown ruin, in Admiral Courbet Road , in the lower part of the hilled village.

12-28-2012 at 08:26:57

@All

Was never good at mathematics, but I know if we add today we have … four days left of 2012. Nearly typed 2013 there … well it’s early and a drawback of serial killing is that it upsets the sleep pattern.

Yes (I mean Oui), Al-Hilli must have read somewhere that the best investment is property, the previous acquisition collateral for the new one. Or something like that.

Manny, are you sure those four men were Jehovah Witnesses? Might they not have been from some intelligence organisation: MI6, Mossad, CIA, DGSE etc doing reconnaissance work? Did they carry their Watchtower material in their right or left hands? That’s important. Did they do the Blues Brothers dance before they left without having removed their shades? I fear the windows of your house have now been counted and their positions have been recorded in order for when the Luger will be fired at you through the window.

Alexander, you will be surprised at how many people can’t spell the name Marilyn, reversing the ‘y’ and the ‘i’. It was Marilyn Monroe, wasn’t it? But you know I have become so used to being called Mariline here in France that I do sometimes wonder whether I ought not call myself Chesney. That was the name my father suggested they should give me, but my mother had set her heart on Marilyn. Et voila!

Sophia, I did not remove the comment you mentioned. Must say that we’ve all had comments disappear and reappear, me too. We have jokingly been speaking of Gremlins doing it. I think the Gremlins are on holiday now for the Cmas and New Year festivities. Anyway, I would like to sit down with you and chat about your past occupations and your language expertise.

Now for some cereal killing to start my day.

12-28-2012 at 09:03:52

@Sophia

re: Husshilli

Of course it must have been an email address Hussein Hilli had used!

@Alex and @All

re: East German state security remnant

But Alex, we all know you were Stasi!! Just like I was ANC. Remember when we met at that meeting in Moscow: you were there for Stasi, with your old Luger and all, and I was there for the ANC, with my brand new Kalashnikov and all?

12-28-2012 at 09:52:39

@Sophia

Thanks for your contribution and interest in this murder case. Have you seen my comment @Booman Tribune? It is a Google translation from an article written in Arabic by Hussein al-Hilli mid-November. Link to the original Arabic article can be provided by Marilyn Z. Tomlins by email.

Google translation is pretty off mark. From Arabic to English “al-Hilli” translates to “ornaments” and “son” is seen as “daughter”. I don’t mind that much, I get the intention of the article after re-reading it, but may miss some important clues.

My analysis of Saad al-Hilli’s mindset is his strong pro-Shia religious feelings. Therefore he has become very upset by the so-called Arab Spring, an uprising of Arabs seen as a Sunni revival, sworn enemy of Shia in Iraq and Iran. The hardship in Syria is primarily caused by the foreign fighters or Sunni Jihadists coming from all over the world to overthrow the Assad regime. Money and arms flowing to this cause from Western powers in conjunction with the GCC countries. The opinion voiced by Saad al-Hilli towards the Palestinian cause is where both Shia and Sunni share the same emotional, political and religious concern.

This strong fundamental belief by Saad al-Hilli determines his path in life and preference towards returning to Iraq or perhaps even living in Iran, a country it is rumored he had recently visited (on his Iraqi passport?).

Could it be Saad al-Hilli with family attempted to flee Britain and tried to escape with the money in his father’s Swis bank account? I still keep open the option he had a meeting set up with Sylvain Mollier at the isolated layby Martinet near Chevaline. The fact that SM was employed by Cézus/Areva has been negated by a lot of misinformation. The French investigators, family, colleagues and friends have been hiding behind a wall of silence. A politically motivated and foreign intelligence asassination still can’t be discounted.

I definitely think Saad al-Hilli has been monitored by foreign intelligence especially since the Adlene Hicheurcase I mentioned in earlier comments [Oui 12-28-2012 at 01:40:17]. Both had worked at Rutherford’s Laboratory. The intelligence “vetting” process is continuous and unrelenting. It is even possible secrecy concern was the reason SAH was let go from his contract work at SSTL.

I fully agree with your statement …

In regards to Arabic translations:

FIRST and FOREMOST, you can often discern events, etc. by assessing what is NOT BEING SAID, and by WHO is NOT talking! Sometimes translations exist when not one verbal cue is initiated. When you learn to “see” that language, understanding becomes more apparent, as does misunderstanding when cues are misread! A deaf person SEES FAR MORE than the average person!

12-28-2012 at 10:27:02

Moscow meeting

If the man with the golden gun was also present, most likely the members at the meeting were funded by MI6, DSGE and AISI (former SISMI).

12-28-2012 at 10:44:35

I have been thinking about Kadhim AH’s strange bank account in Geneva – “strange” in the sense that any Swiss bank would be highly reluctant to open such an account, on which it makes very little profit, for an offshore client.

The most likely explanation is, in my opinion, that Kadhim AH had, or used to have, property in Switzerland, and that he opened that account not as an offshore client, but as a Swiss resident.

It says here
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200062/Amid-quiet.html
Property in Spain, Switzerland, Iraq and France is reportedly at the heart of this.

12-28-2012 at 12:09:52

@Peter

So you have replied to Sophia concerning Al-Hilli property in Switzerland. Thank you.

I do not know of this is still so, Peter – maybe you can tell us – but if a foreigner has studied at a school or university in Switzerland, or has lived there, even for a short period having been posted there for example, that person can also open or hold a bank account. Same goes for a residence permit.

As for wealthy foreigners – people with a few million to deposit even if those were not completely legally obtained (dictator on the run for example) – would a Swiss bank tell them, “sorry old chap, but we can’t help you. Go to Monte Carlo. Albert won’t turn you down.”

@Oui

About the Moscow meeting. Eventually Stasi lost, but the ANC won.

And thank you for your very intelligent and comprehensible response to Sophia’s comments.

12-28-2012 at 12:53:31

Found this English language digest of French news. It’s all on one long page covering 3 months, so if you’re interested in anything, do a “find in page”. http://heraultwhatson.info/news/?currentPage=4

“French authorities have made public a scathing report of the country’s domestic intelligence agency, criticising its investigation into the man behind the Toulouse shootings, Mohamed Merah, as a series of failures.”

“France has unveiled a set of measures aimed at tackling organised crime in Corsica, six days after a high-profile lawyer was shot dead on the Mediterranean island. He said it had proved difficult to prosecute murders because of an unwillingness to give evidence in court, blamed on a very strong code of silence, grounded part in tradition and part in fear.”

“Two men and a woman appeared in a French court Monday in a case over a Cannes Film Festival high-end prostitution ring that had ties to a son of slain Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi.”

“Le Figaro managed to obtain an advanced copy of a report written by the former head of European aerospace group EADS Louis Gallois to boost the competitiveness of the economy. Gallois was commissioned by the Socialist government and the conservative newspaper is excited about Gallois’s proposal of a 30-billion-euro reduction in corporate contributions in order to boost on the economy.”

“Security sources say Surrey Satellite Technology had ‘been of interest’ to MI5 for ten years, with the agency conducting surveillance on British-based individuals who made contact with the firm. One security expert said: ‘The Iranians are desperate to acquire cutting-edge technology, which they cannot legally obtain. If they were either getting it from Mr Al-Hilli, or hoped to get it from him and he refused, they would not think twice about killing him.’ Iran’s key focus would most likely be Israel, which is fiercely protective of high-resolution satellite images of its facilities.”

“But after 60 years there is still a mystery around the murders of scientist Sir Jack Drummond, his wife and their young daughter in the same region.” [The papers had a pic or the corpse, as they did with a recent Corsican murder. But the al Hilli family photo at 1515 is too morbid.] He was a pawn in the secret battle between the Eastern bloc and the West over their leading scientists… One report by a senior French police officer gave the opinion it was “an episode in the secret struggle between pharmaceutical corporations”. Sir Jack worked for Rhône-Poulenc’s British rival Boots, who at the time were at the forefront in the development of fertilisers and weedkillers. Chemicals produced could also have a military use – devastatingly in the case of Agent Orange in Asia.”

“Aujourd’hui en France goes for impact at the expense of accuracy with a headline reading “French youth drift into terrorism”. That insight is based on the fact that the most active of those arrested at the weekend are, indeed, French and in their 20s. ”

“Did the pair, a singer and a pianist by profession, ever meet Karima El-Mahroug, universally known as Ruby and tragically under age at the time of Berlusconi’s alleged association with her. “Perhaps once,” sang Apicella, with an accompanying arpeggio of approval from Mariani. In other words, invited to a soirée by Silvio, you could bring your wife and children. The local Catholic archbishop would feel completely at home. Even he could bring his wife and children.”

12-28-2012 at 13:35:16

@ Marilyn

It is exactly as you say: Having a residence, a job, or merely “some special connection” to Switzerland enables a foreigner to open a bank account there without any problems.

However, in the absence of any such connexion with the place, they will turn away foreigners these days – I myself have tried recently and was turfed out by five different banks when I asked for a plain-vanilla CHF-denominated savings account.

As for wealthy foreigners – people with a few million to deposit even if those were not completely legally obtained (dictator on the run for example) – would a Swiss bank tell them, “sorry old chap, but we can’t help you. Go to Monte Carlo. Albert won’t turn you down.”

No, they won’t say that, but they will insist on selling that dictator an asset-management solution (a “mandate” or “fiduciary mandate”), or at the very least a deposit rather than a cash account. From the banks’ point of view, cash or savings accounts for offshore clients are simply not lucrative enough, not worth the hassle that they may entail.

Thus, I can see only two ways in which Kadhim AH obtained his cash account in Geneva: Either he used to have a residence in Switzerland, or he had *a lot* more money at the same bank, in different (managed) accounts.

12-28-2012 at 14:57:55

@Oui

re: man with the golden gun

Ah, yes, Gaddafi was the ANC’s big friend and provider of funds … As was Moscow …

As the song goes : Those were the days my friend, thought they would never end.

12-28-2012 at 15:04:07

@NR

Thank you for the link to that site. I’ve been on it before and found it good. It is of course a full-time job keeping a site like that going. I tried to subscribe to their newsletter but it would not allow me to do so — site went all funny at each try.

The French intelligence services have admitted to having made an error with the supervision of Merah. I like to think that something like that will not happen here again. But there’s many a slip between …. etc.

12-28-2012 at 15:16:26

@All

“Security sources say Surrey Satellite Technology had ‘been of interest’ to MI5 for ten years, with the agency conducting surveillance on British-based individuals who made contact with the firm. One security expert said: ‘The Iranians are desperate to acquire cutting-edge technology, which they cannot legally obtain. If they were either getting it from Mr Al-Hilli, or hoped to get it from him and he refused, they would not think twice about killing him.’ Iran’s key focus would most likely be Israel, which is fiercely protective of high-resolution satellite images of its facilities.”

The above as given by NR of 2012.12.28 at 12.53pm strengthens my belief that there was so much more to Saad Al-Hilli. He was on the books of MI5 and therefore also on those of MI6, and all these intelligence agencies work together (while also against each other of course), so our Saad was not in France for the fresh baguettes and grilled chevaline with onion sauce and mushrooms.

As was said here (was it you Peter?) as all in the BMW had all their passports with them, were they not on their way to Iran or Iraq? To up and out were not knew to this family so why would it be inconceivable that they were doing so again. They had, after all, left property and assets behind already in the past, so surely doing so again would not have been something strange to them.

12-28-2012 at 15:20:43

@Peter

Try Monte Carlo for banking. Personal security like nowhere else on earth: CCTV cameras everywhere. Beautiful scenery. Wonderful weather. Easy lifestyle: shops close at noon until 3pm for lunch. Can rub shoulders with the wealthy: tennis and football stars, film stars, writers (count me out ’cause I am far too downmarket for Monaco), and the likes.

12-28-2012 at 15:54:47

@ Marilyn

I know MC quite well, as I have family in Nice. However, I wanted to transfer some of my savings out of the Eurozone. Moreover, the banks in MC are even worse than in Switzerland: They will happily take your money, provided that you bring enough of it, but they insist on managing it for you. That is precisely what I didn’t want.

Eventually, I chose a savings account in Mainland China: a healthy currency, zero chance of my account details being shared with any institutions outside China and, amazingly, free ATM withdrawals absolutely everywhere in Europe.

12-28-2012 at 16:29:41

@Peter

China!! I did not know it was possible.

I was told that Monte Carlo will have one as a resident provided one can deposit 3 million euro in an account and not to withdraw from that account. Of course French nationals have to pay income tax there, but I am not a French national …

Nice is nice too.

And then there is Paris. Have you seen the Ingrid Bergman/Humphrey Bogart film ‘Casablanca’. I always quote from it: “We will always have Paris”.

12-28-2012 at 20:55:32

Well the pendulum has certainly swung back towards AH as the principle target with his family/personal/financial connections with the middle east being the proposed motive. Having read some of the translated reports which are anything but readable I am still undecided as I was when I first joined this select little group.
However, I still have doubts as follows;
If AH was the intended target we have still not resolved why this location was chosen.
As I have repeatedly said, his home address is known and his family routine easily found. (it took me 5 minutes on the internet to establish the school that his daughter attended). With minimal effort and very little danger to myself I could easily establish his work routine, his vehicle, his daily route, the shops he uses, etc. Why kill him abroad where my presence would stand out? Chevaline is not Marseille or Paris with a large and varied population. Kill him in France and you have the problem of his family likely to be in attendance. Kill him at home and ironically you can avoid this complication.
I would recommend you review the murder of Alistair Wilson, of Nairn, Scotland in 2004.(which remains unsolved).
Briefly, Mr Wilson, a junior manager at a local bank was shot on his own door-step by a male who purported to have a letter for his personal attention. His wife having initially answered the door and seen the sealed letter called her husband and left him to deal with the stranger who promptly shot Wilson when the 2 men were left alone.
The gun was found some weeks later down a drain and it was established as being a 1930s handgun originating in Eastern Europe.
Despite detailed enquiries , publicity and theories the motive has still not been established. Was it to do with his personal life?( seems to have been very much a settled married man).
Was it to do with his position at the bank? He was a junior manager of a local and (reasonably) reputable bank involved with minor business accounts – he would be highly unlikely to be involved in money-laundering.
Was it some secret assignation or enterprise such as drugs he was involved in? Well, read about Nairn. Its the sort of place you go on holidays(if it was a bit warmer!) or retire to. If there was anything dodgy going on someone would know.
Was he shot in error? in Scotland Alistair is a very common name as is Wilson.
There is a bit of dejavu about it.

No, its just so easy to knock on someones door and shoot them when they answer it. Unless of course the victim was in fear but then that raises the question as to what steps he took to safeguard himself? Taking his own car, towing his own caravan and taking his own mobile phone is hardly ‘disappearing into the woodwork’.
Let us consider the proposition that he was targetted because of his technical assistance etc to certain Middle East factions/countries. Another murder that comes to mind is that of Dr Gerald Bull in 1990 who made the somewhat stupid mistake of becoming embroiled with Saddam Hussein and his armamants program. This was not just a murder but an assasination which was meant to be publically noted and was widely reported. He could easily have been ‘taken out’ and just became another ‘disappeared’ but his killers and their masters needed to send out an important message so it was a public execution. I cannot really imagine the Mossad, Iranians, CIA or whatever having to steal or buy some ancient gun more likely to have been left over from some Swiss persons Civil Defence duties. They would come armed with the right tools of the trade.
I still do not see that AH fits neatly into this category.

The only other possibility for him being targetted is a family/friend dispute, but we are then left with the logistics of how such a person, almost certainly unsupported would have the capability to locate him, obtain a gun in that locality and carry out the murders.Obviously, the young girl who survived did not recognise a known family member or friend or there would be someone already in the cells.
I donot know how many logs we have generated. It runs into hundreds if not thousands! Some of them are vids that I cannot translate, others are google-translations that could start world war 3 if introduced into the wrong environment so it may well be that some of the points i have raised have been addressed, but I would welcome any comment that you care to make.
Again many thanks to Marilyn and our friends for the interesting thoughts.

12-28-2012 at 21:46:41

Very interesting comments, Kevin. The only valid suggestion I can make, regarding why he was not disposed of in England, is that something happened while he was in France that led to his murder and the murder of the other three persons. We read that he was constantly leaving the campsite for short periods of time. Maybe those absences hold the clue.

12-28-2012 at 22:07:50

An additional comparson which I had quite forgotten about concerning doorstep murders by co-incidence has relevance to my previous logs where I referred to the BBC program- CRIMEWATCH.
A presenter of that program, Jill Dando was shot on her own door-step in London.
At the time there were and still are a number of theories as to motives – a disgruntled criminal caught through the publicity from the program, some sort of Eastern European connection (I have no idea about that one!) etc. In the end a London man with a known sexual fatuation was charged and convicted of her murder. It went to appeal and he got off on it, so technically its unsolved although I doubt anyone else is being sought.

12-28-2012 at 23:31:03

@Kevin and @Visiteur

Why was Al-Hilli killed in France?

You may well have supplied the answer yourself by writing the following about the murder of Dr Gerald Bull in 1990.

You wrote in your comment: This was not just a murder but an assassination which was meant to be publically noted and was widely reported. He could easily have been ‘taken out’ and just became another ‘disappeared’ but his killers and their masters needed to send out an important message so it was a public execution.

And it worked because we are now, almost four months after the Chevaline shooting still discussing it, whereas the 2004 murder of Alistair Wilson is forgotten. Who of our commentators have even heard of it? But had he been shot abroad – on a Paris street or on a lay-by in Haute Savoie while on holiday – it surely would have drawn the same attention and interest as that of Chevaline.

You make another interesting observation – Obviously, the young girl who survived did not recognise a known family member or friend or there would be someone already in the cells.

Yes, certainly this is so. She had apparently spoken of a ‘bad man’ but if it had been a family member or friend of the family, at the age of seven, she would have been capable of recognising this person.

Visiteur also makes an interesting suggestion when he wrote The only valid suggestion I can make, regarding why he was not disposed of in England, is that something happened while he was in France that led to his murder

I think you are the first to think of this possibility.

I did though say in my comments that Saad Al-Hilli had to be ‘taken out’ while still in France. I made a comparison with the death of Princess Diana, who, as those of you who have been reading this forum/blog from the start will know, I believe was ‘taken out’ too. Maybe the ‘killing’ of Princess Diana is being used among intelligence agencies as an example of the ‘ease’ with which a cumbersome person can be got rid of successfully in France.

I remember the shooting of Jill Dando. Britain was stunned. Now no one speaks of it anymore. Therefore, perhaps in 10 or so years, the unsolved Chevaline shootings will also no longer be spoken about.

12-28-2012 at 23:38:29

Most agreements for sale of property usually last 6 months to a year and the agent puts it on a sort of open listing so a real estate person with another company if they get a buyer, can split commissions. when online the public can look through sites like this,
http://www.french-property.com/f/p/nv/s/p/o/a/lcl/114/pts/3/
in our case the Gironde District.
Alhillis second property ,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2206417/Father-Alps-massacre-family-planning-selling-ruined-property-400-miles-away-France.html?ITO=1490
in St Macaire , where St Martins (lol) Church located, was not only interesting investment because of history to ancient architecture, but not far from water, which from smuggling standpoint might be desirable, to those so inclined and interested in buying.

12-28-2012 at 23:52:50

I’m off … Tomorrow is another day.

12-29-2012 at 00:04:53

@Kevin About Jill Dando …

When a conspiracy is the simple solution

“From the moment a brass cartridge case that once held the bullet that killed Dando was found, it was certain that whoever killed her was either a gunsmith himself, or had access to specialist weapons-making facilities – and it was a strong possibility that the killer hailed from Eastern Europe. The cartridge, a Remington .380 casing, had been opened, and propellant removed to reduce the crack of a gunshot – then crimped back onto the slug, a 9mm round, creating a custom-built, low-powered, composite round. An old NKVD trick apparently, dating from Stalin’s days.”

Jill Dando murder: Police investigate Serbian hitman theory

12-29-2012 at 00:38:26

A State Sponsored Nutter? While we are considering similar murders, how about this one, which I added at Craig Murray. Note the shooting through glass, albeit from the inside, the coup de grace, the shooter’s “rescue crew” rushing to the scene, and the shooter later arrested in Colorado over a parking dispute that turned violent. The shooter also had in his vehicle satellite phones, kidnapping materials, much ammo, etc.

Wonder if this nutter and his crew, or folks like him, were vacationing in Annecy, driving cars with US Washington state number plates?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-20043734.html

“Raymond Davis an American CIA contractor who shot and killed two Pakistani men was released from prison and left Pakistan after more than $2 million in “blood money” was paid to his victims’ families… ”

From the comments: “You don’t fork over 2.35 million $US in blood money to buy a pardon, if you want to have your day in court with a claim of self-defense via shooting at people through your windshield and in the back 10 or more times as they retreat. This guy is a major psychopath and murderer. U.S. law REQUIRES that he be tried for the crimes he has admitted to through a pardon under another countries legal system.”

Wait, there’s more. The fun doesn’t stop. From the WikiPedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Allen_Davis_incident

” U.S. officials revealed Davis was a contractor for the CIA after it was reported in The Guardian. According to The Telegraph, he was acting head of the CIA in Pakistan.”

“Davis opened fire and killed both of them with his own 9mm Glock pistol… when Davis fired at Faizan and Faheem, they were sitting on their bike in front of his car with their backs towards Davis. Davis shot them through his windshield. After the shooting, Davis is alleged to have exited his car to take pictures and videos of the casualties with his cell phone. There are additional reports that Davis shot five rounds through his windshield, got out of his vehicle and shot four more rounds into the two men as they lay on the pavement.”

“Minutes later, four men in a Toyota Land Cruiser Prado with fake registration plates made an unsuccessful attempt to reach the scene.”

“Davis was the operator of “Hyperion Protective Services LLC” based in either Nevada or Orlando, Florida. Davis was also a CIA contractor as an employee of Blackwater Worldwide (now Xe).”

“On October 1, 2011, Douglas County, Colorado, sheriff’s deputies arrested Davis in Highlands Park, Colorado, at the Town Center in Highlands Ranch, for third-degree assault… stemming from a dispute… about a parking space…”

12-29-2012 at 01:28:11
12-29-2012 at 01:59:59

@ Oui 12-24-2012 at 17:09:30
“@NR @All”

My apologies. Out of your: “I have written my second diary on the Annecy murders @Booman – End of the Year:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/12/24/11346/542

I lifted, stole, borrowed, this link, without crediting you.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/917/re3.htm

“Major Gen. [Res.] Yossi Ben Hanan is on record as having witnessed Dagan killing his captives in a heinous way. Also, after their release from duty, several Israeli soldiers who committed serious crimes stated they were influenced by the horror of what they saw and what they were ordered to do by Dagan.”

I see it’s now being requoted at other places. My point was at least (some) Israelis owned up to what they were doing, and did not hide behind euphemisms such as Bring to Justice or Extraordinarily Render or Enhancedly Interrogate.

If Mossad did the hit at Martinet would they not hint it was their doing, as with Gerald Bull? Unless it was a botched job and they don’t want to take credit/blame.

12-29-2012 at 05:50:22

This is a case which I think will remain a mystery. it is intended to be kept that way. I do believe both men (Saad/ Sylvain) were the targets and Saad’s wife& her mom knew/saw too much and had to be taken dome as well.
Zainab

12-29-2012 at 07:31:17

I have strong sense of Shakespearean Justice..colored by a little Camus and a lot of Umberto Eco for sure. Therfore, I could not ignore this.

We remember how Saad went as tough guy, a side we did not recognize, . to His poultry Farm and Got beat up? And everyone wondering..wow.OMG .why is this? What did he do?

Maybe…. what this is payback for what he did in St. Macaire according to Vladmir Charov who owned place acrosss from him at 296 Shut the Door (or the chickens get out) Rennesee Place. off Amiral Courbet st.
http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/09/21/la-victime-de-chevaline-proprietaire-en-gironde-826923-7.php

“From memory, this gentleman bought this house, which was a ruin in the late 1990s, in 1997 or 1998. It belonged to a Mr. Marc. Eugène Lefebvre, who lived in the street, had installed his hens. He was removed when the Iraqi bought. Macarien It is here that had attracted him, “recalls Vladimir Charov.

At the time, he said in the village that the British engineer intends to renovate the house and to develop, in order to rent a small apartment on the first floor as the ground floor is flooded. This would have provided an income.

One man

“He came to work several times. He repaired the roof, put electricity. He bricked two openings on the ground floor and built a concrete slab floor, remembers his neighbor. I have seen several times when it was the work. We exchanged a few words, but it was not easy because I do not speak English and French, not him. I’ve always seen alone. He was dressed mostly in black. I looked at the pictures on the Internet. Obviously, this goes back years. I think it was more menu. He had the nose oriental. “Vladimir Charov remembers:” I’ve always seen alone. I do not know where he lived, but it certainly was not in his house. ‘

http://www.lekti-ecriture.com/blogs/alamblog/index.php/post/2009/01/15/Vladimir-Charov
quote alamblog
to have a chance to read one day Vladimir Charov must have access to his or her surname (only name) and remember. Then, it is a story of curiosity and hack: take his feet to his neck in order to reach the first island bookish met in the city, or manipulate a keyboard. Also, because there are only very few pages devoted, French, Vladimir Charov the Alamblog takes his pilgrim to present this Russian writer, born in Moscow in 1952, based on which the serious criticism hopes, off the French critics who did not read a lot (it is busy).
Outside France, he was oftentimes compared to Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Umberto Eco.”

I love it!! I did not know Saad like to wear black like the swarthy Italians..or was the Eastern Europeans..or was that Johnny cash.? :D
But to later Go and try to kick out people from his own Poultry Farn, then get beatup..maybe even chased by angry wet hens…must have been a sight for sore eyes, At least for Lefevre the chickenman had he been there.
:)

12-29-2012 at 08:01:17

SST surveillance technology may have captured this moment in Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-aW9-wv6gGg#!

Good nite don’t let the bedbugs bite!

12-29-2012 at 09:23:22

@ Manny 12-29-2012 at 07:31:17
Great story about the chickens and Saad’s place in France. Grandpa’s business in Iraq has been referred to as a poultry farm, an egg laboratory, and a chicken hatchery. May be different translations.

If it was an egg laboratory, those could be used to make vaccines and maybe too some bioweapon stuff.

From my comment above: “But after 60 years there is still a mystery around the murders of scientist Sir Jack Drummond, his wife and their young daughter in the same region…. He was a pawn in the secret battle between the Eastern bloc and the West over their leading scientists… One report by a senior French police officer gave the opinion it was “an episode in the secret struggle between pharmaceutical corporations”. Sir Jack worked for Rhône-Poulenc’s British rival Boots, who at the time were at the forefront in the development of fertilisers and weedkillers. Chemicals produced could also have a military use – devastatingly in the case of Agent Orange in Asia.”

I’ve forgotten exactly, but weren’t there other al Hillis involved in bio-research?

12-29-2012 at 09:27:57

Theory #1001.01 Beta : If the killings at Chevaline were a protest against horse butchery and/or revenge for France’s part in the Rainbow Warrior killings years ago, these groups have cash money to throw around. Bet you could buy a good massacre for US$190,000.

Paraphrased: “The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will pay Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus $9.3 million to settle a lawsuit the circus filed after courts found that the animal rights activists had paid a former Ringling barn helper involved in the lawsuit at least $190,000, making him “essentially a paid plaintiff” who lacked credibility.”

“Friday’s settlement covers only the ASPCA. Twelve other defendants including The Humane Society of the United States, the Animal Welfare Institute and The Fund for Animals are still involved in the lawsuit.”

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22273969/animal-rights-group-settles-lawsuit-ringling